# Optical Forums > Canadian Discussion Forum >  Got Asked for a PD Today (First Time)

## Golfnorth

This afternoon I had a 20 something women approach me and sheepishly ask if I could measure her "pupil distance," as her eye doctor wouldn't do it for her.

I told her that I wouldn't. Actually you couldn't pay me enough to do that for anyone.

I wonder how others deal with this relatively new phenomenon?
I welcome you to share your experiences.

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## Refractingoptician.com

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## Refractingoptician.com

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## Chris Ryser

Better get used to this poblem and solve it now...................as it is not going to go away. Every on line optical explains very clearly what a PD is, but prefers if a professional does it.

A reasonable idea would be to charge a fee that includes PD measurement, checking the finished Rx and make the frame adjustments. You decide the amount for a fair professional fee, and you might get a new steady customer when their on-line expirience turns sour.




> SORT BY PUPILLARY DISTANCE[/B] 
> 
> The *PD* or *Pupillary Distance* is the distance between the pupils of the eyes, center to center, in Millimeters (1 inch = 25.4mm).
> 
> 
> 
> To sort through the frames from your *Frame Search* above which will accomodate a particular PD, choose the PD from the drop down menu.
> 
> All frames from your search which will work with the PD chosen will be displayed.


The websites of the 5 largest on line opticals have increased their website traffic by nearly 40% over the last 4 month. There are dozens of websites for public consumers discussions on the subject. There are now some 25,000 pairs sold between them on a daily basis.

Ignoring this subject might also create a new type of ician to come on the market. The one that keeps no inventory and just services the on line purchases of consumers.

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## cocoisland58

I have been asked a few times in the last year or so.  I have told them that their pupillary distance and all other necessary measurements are the responsibility of the optician who sells them their eyewear.  Then they admit to "going online" so I tell them I would be happy to provide the measurements, an Rx check and adjustment for 30.00.  I have had no takers.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Then they admit to "going online" so I tell them I would be happy to provide the measurements, an Rx check and adjustment for 30.00. I have had no takers.*


Here we have one negative expirience. ...............How can we solve this as the consumer does need the PD and also will need the adjustments.

Maybe charge less ahead of the purchase and more when they come for adjustments, because if the glasses hurt nose or ears they will need you.

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## idispense

A deaf and mute optician I know already has the correct answer. although she can only use sign language, she is an effective communicator. We can all learn her technique and diplomacy for dealing with these matters. Keep in mind that her husband is an auto mechanic and quite often customers would ask to borrow his tools . I think between them,  they have the solution worked out for all of us. 

Originally her technique was this :
http://www.blogitude.com/uploads/200...p-the-bird.png



It has now been turned into a video learning experience to teach others the proper way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Ptb5fYiTw

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## Golfnorth

> Here we have one negative expirience. ...............How can we solve this as the consumer does need the PD and also will need the adjustments.
> 
> Maybe charge less ahead of the purchase and more when they come for adjustments, because if the glasses hurt nose or ears they will need you.


Chris;

Why would you even entertain and change your business model to accomodate these people? Notice I didn't say customers. These are NOT your customers. They are searching for the lowest price period. Not wanting to pay $30 for a PD? Please! Ok so how about this? If every ECP refused to provide a PD, even for a fee then I wonder how the unregulated online opticals would be doing? I like this ECP's approach.

http://www.ecpmag.com/1webmagazine/2...e-services.asp

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## Golfnorth

> I have been asked a few times in the last year or so. I have told them that their pupillary distance and all other necessary measurements are the responsibility of the optician who sells them their eyewear. Then they admit to "going online" so I tell them I would be happy to provide the measurements, an Rx check and adjustment for 30.00. I have had no takers.


I think you should have offerred to do a nice Turtle Wax on their car as well......that would have sealed the deal!

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## Golfnorth

> Here we have one negative expirience. ...............How can we solve this as the consumer does need the PD and also will need the adjustments.
> 
> Maybe charge less ahead of the purchase and more when they come for adjustments, because if the glasses hurt nose or ears they will need you.


Chris;


Why should we want to solve this?

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## Now I See

I've given out a couple, after I first opened.  But after taking one of our state's required CE courses, and finding out that if I take the measurements, then I am responsible for any problems...I had a change of heart.  I am more than willing to take responsibility for what happens with the patients that purchase from me, however, I do not want to be in the middle of an "on-line dispenser vs. independent optician" situation.  The other thought is, if you are required to maintain liability insurance, what are the insurance company's thoughts?  Knowing that there is some extra responsibility for giving out PD's for online purchases, would they still allow you coverage, and if so, at what premium?

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## Striderswife

In our office, a PD is not taken unless the patient is ordering glasses, meaning it's not a regular measurement performed as part of an eye exam.  If the patient wants us to provide that service (the act of taking the measurement), we do it for a charge, just like all the other tests and measurements we perform.  For our fee, we will also verify the Rx once it has been filled, if the patient wants to show their sheepish face again after obviously taking their business elsewhere.

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## Mactire

I had that a couple of times. 
People'd come in and ask "What do you charge for an eye test?" in a way you know why they are stopping by internet-glasses

I once had a person who tried to cover his true motives so hard I was all happy and cheery and said "We don't charge anything for an eye test!"

What he didn't know is that times were so slow in store we didn't have anything better to do. 
I did a complete eye test and managed to keep her in the exam room for over 45 minutes!.
When we were done she said: "Ok, thanks can I have a presription?"

And I replied: "That'll be 30,-"
Her getting angry: "But you said an eye test was free of charge?"
I replied, "The test is for free, the prescrtiption isn't unless you buy a pair of glasses." (which is actually the company's policy).
She then left the store ranting about how I wasted her time!

My collegues almost died laughting.

But seriously, a free PD test? That's a no-no. You can take a complete eye exam and pay 30,- or get lost.

Also, you can advise them to take the pd from their old glasses ^_^
_"Oh, you don't have a lensmeter at home, that's a shame..."_ ^_~

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## Jacqui

I charge $35 for PD, $50 to help select the right frame, $50 to verify Rx, and $65 to fit . This is all posted on a very large sign in clear view. It makes it easier and cheaper for people to pay a real optician for glasses.

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## Mactire

You charge for selecting a frame? 
Are you afraid they try the frame at your shop and buy it somewhere else?

We don't really have that problem .Our frames are priced over the typeno. of the frame.
So when clients write down the number of the frame they can't order it anywhere else because they are writing down our frame number ^_^

We had people come back asking why they couldn't find the frame on the internet or other stores ^_~

Saying this I think you might have a point. But what if people are browsing? Al lot of them may be persuaded to buy the frame you just advised. So you  might be missing out some sales oppertunities I think.

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## ih8wlmrt

> I charge $35 for PD, $50 to help select the right frame, $50 to verify Rx, and $65 to fit . This is all posted on a very large sign in clear view. It makes it easier and cheaper for people to pay a real optician for glasses.


I think this sounds like a great idea, have you always done it this way? 
if not, did you encounter alot of resistance from your patients when you switched?  
do you charge a new customer who purchases glasses from you all those fees since you are doing all those things? 
do you still charge regular retail for frames and lenses? the reason I ask is there was  a local optician a few years ago who did something similar to this but he was advertising that he was only charging "wholesale cost"for the frames and lenses and then charging a "dispensing fee" he had a menu board with the price of repairs, adjustments, and different dispensing fees  etc... kind of like mcdonalds. He did not stay in business long so I assumed that business  model just did not work, but maybe there was another reason he did not last, bad service, bad location whatever... maybe his dispensing fees weren't enough to cover his cost of doing business.
I would love to know more about how this works for you I am very intriqued by the idea.
what type of practice do you have- is it in a OMD's office, retail optician only, optician with an OD,  are you in a retail setting or more of a medical setting?

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## For-Life

> Chris;
> 
> Why would you even entertain and change your business model to accomodate these people? Notice I didn't say customers. These are NOT your customers. They are searching for the lowest price period. Not wanting to pay $30 for a PD? Please! Ok so how about this? If every ECP refused to provide a PD, even for a fee then I wonder how the unregulated online opticals would be doing? I like this ECP's approach.
> 
> http://www.ecpmag.com/1webmagazine/2...e-services.asp
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


Plus, you said this is your first.  The optical model has been around for a few years.  Online sunglasses have been around for 10.  Not really the mass exodus that people were proclaiming would happen

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## Judy Canty

> I've given out a couple, after I first opened. But after taking one of our state's required CE courses, and finding out that if I take the measurements, then I am responsible for any problems...I had a change of heart. I am more than willing to take responsibility for what happens with the patients that purchase from me, however, I do not want to be in the middle of an "on-line dispenser vs. independent optician" situation. The other thought is, if you are required to maintain liability insurance, what are the insurance company's thoughts? Knowing that there is some extra responsibility for giving out PD's for online purchases, would they still allow you coverage, and if so, at what premium?


*Now this is an interesting point...we should be checking with our regulatory agencies to determine liability.  No regulatory agency in your state, then check with your attorney.

*

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## idispense

> *Now this is an interesting point...we should be checking with our regulatory agencies to determine liability. No regulatory agency in your state, then check with your attorney.*


Assuming that you could get a response at all , why would you believe the regulatory body let alone a lawyer ? Laws are subject to interpretation . Would they be telling you the law according to regulations or according to bylaws or according to policies ? If you were not extremely particular in your wording you may get various answers. You would also require the question and the answer to be in writing and even then both would be subject to interpretation.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Chris;* 
> *Why should we want to solve this?*
> 
> *Regards,*
> *Golfnorth*


Golfnorth,

When today's largest optical corporation purchased a majority steak of Frames Direct, which is the second largest on line retailer after Zenni's, they knew what they were doing. They did not take a risk, because they knew that they could get away with it.

We can even see it right here on OptiBoard, members shy away from any serious discussion what could happen to the profession and its suppliers within the next few years. 

When a high quality manufacturer goes into direct competition with the professional retailer = their customers, on the lowest level of the professional scale, they must be out to kill for their own good.

Remembering times in the optical Europe when opticians had cartels and just about could force their suppliers to behave the way they wanted or else. These days are over and gone.




> *Why would you even entertain and change your business model to accomodate these people? Notice I didn't say customers. These are NOT your customers. They are searching for the lowest price period.*


Yes they are not your customers, but maybe could have been, for sure they were somebodies customers. Maybe they have lost their jobs or lost half a fortune on the stock market, and now their pension is cut in half. 
So they are searching  for low prices out of necessity.

The recession is not over yet and a monetary collapse is coming closer with Europe in all these financial problems. Things will never go back to what we call normal, the way it was.  The US has 30 million un-employed people and in Canada  it also  hovers around 10%. 

So why not find a way that will let the professional make some money for his services instead of giving them away, or find a way of making the danger of the on-line opticals go away into the internet heaven.

regards
Chris R

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## uncut

@golfnorth:

What was the lady's response to your stand?

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## YrahG

> Golfnorth,
> 
> When today's largest optical corporation purchased a majority steak of Frames Direct, which is the second largest on line retailer after Zenni's, they knew what they were doing. *They did not take a risk, because they knew that they could get away with it.*
> 
> Correction they think they can get away with it.  Your assumption is that the fight is over, but I stopped using their products and I see many here have as well.
> 
> *We can even see it right here on OptiBoard, members shy away from any serious discussion what could happen to the profession and its suppliers within the next few years.* 
> 
> I am not allowed to discuss that ;)
> ...


Chris,

If you give a PD to a patient you might as well start your own online optical shop.  If your going to advocate it in the patients eye's and you see it as a true inevitability then why settle for a dispensing fee when you can have the whole nut.

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## TLG

I went to my manager and asked how they want us to handle PD requests. We are part of a very large Ophthalmology practice and the word came down from our owner - we are "forbidden" from providing them. Boy, did that make my life easy!

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## Golfnorth

> @golfnorth:
> 
> What was the lady's response to your stand?


Hi Uncut;

The young lady sheepishly turned around and walked out of my store without saying a thing and without a wimper. I can only speculate that she had heard no a few times before walking into my store.

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## LAGUNAEYEDESIGNER

Dear moderator,
I have replied to this thread @goldnorth...Where is my reply?? I can not find it...??

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## uncut

@ golfnorth: I have and still am thinking about the different scenarios that we have come across. We have started to offer people assistance provided that we fill out an* internet purchase Hazard assessment* form, which details everything about the purchase, and taking their occupation, lifestyle into consideration, analyzes their purchase consequences. I tie this to them getting information to purchase, and for those who have purchased and request assistance.....they usually decline to participate, so no information out and no aftercare is pursued. WINwin?

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## optical maven

I really can't see this as a problem. If you provide a service, charge a fee. I see the internet like previous changes in the eyeglass business. When free frames first hit the market, we all scratched our heads as to how could they do that. They sucked business from us. We're still in business. If they want a PD, measure it, charge a fee, and then try talking to the person as to why they are shopping online. Everyone on this site shops for what they perceive to be value. Glasses are no different. If you are nice, the person may decide that their perceived deal wasn't much of one, and come back to next year.

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## cleyes

Reply to Jaqui's post on 6/10/10    You go girl!  Completely agree with you.  Suggest those royally screwed  BC opticians do same.

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## Judy Canty

> If you are nice, the person may decide that their perceived deal wasn't much of one, and come back to next year.


IF you're still in business...

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## bob66hall

Suggestion: Charge "walk-ins" a fee for the PD, but offer full credit for that fee toward the purchase of glasses from you...all done with smile.  That way you establish a value for your service, you're not antagonizing a potential customer, AND you're breaking the ice for a sale.

The internet has marvelously "unbundled" the supply chain, and exposed a lot about the pricing and margins in each link.  ECP's have enjoyed substantial margins in frame pricing.  Those margins will certainly come under attack (already have).  PD's may only be the tip of the iceberg of "unbundling."

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## uncut

> IF you're still in business...


Touche'!!!!

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## uncut

> Suggestion: Charge "walk-ins" a fee for the PD, but offer full credit for that fee toward the purchase of glasses from you...all done with smile. That way you establish a value for your service, you're not antagonizing a potential customer, AND you're breaking the ice for a sale.
> 
> The internet has marvelously "unbundled" the supply chain, and exposed a lot about the pricing and margins in each link. ECP's have enjoyed substantial margins in frame pricing. Those margins will certainly come under attack (already have). PD's may only be the tip of the iceberg of "unbundling."


 

Nice deflection........by a non-profit, and obviously    " charitable organization
"

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## bob66hall

> Nice deflection........by a non-profit, and obviously " charitable organization
> "


No deflection...it was a sincere suggestion.  Go back to the original outcome of the consumer encounter, quote:

_"The young lady sheepishly turned around and walked out of my store without saying a thing and without a wimper. I can only speculate that she had heard no a few times before walking into my store."_

So did it feel good so send the consumer packing?  Maybe.  And how did that benefit this retailer?  Nada.  And how many friends might this consumer tell about her frosty experience?  Research says "many."  Run your business as you wish.  Chasing away consumers has never been part of my playbook.....bh

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## KStraker

I tell them something like: "Sorry, but I cannot give you the measurements to go and buy your glasses on line." Then I explain that we are in business to sell glasses ourselves, not to facilitate purchase elsewhere. Of course I don't use the word "facilitate", because it seems like many of our patients are truly not smarter than a 5th grader.

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## uncut

@bob66hall:

"ecp's have enjoyed substantial margins...."   *as if* frame manufacturers and  distributors have operated on *slim* margins? 

  By suggesting that dispensers help internutters by providing measurements, free or otherwise, would be the same as suggesting to a distributor that you supply your frames free to an online purchaser.

Some retail establishments, and professions do unload costly customers, stop carrying products that are inferior, or are difficult to service.

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## Golfnorth

> Golfnorth,
> 
> When today's largest optical corporation purchased a majority steak of Frames Direct, which is the second largest on line retailer after Zenni's, they knew what they were doing. They did not take a risk, because they knew that they could get away with it.
> 
> We can even see it right here on OptiBoard, members shy away from any serious discussion what could happen to the profession and its suppliers within the next few years. 
> 
> When a high quality manufacturer goes into direct competition with the professional retailer = their customers, on the lowest level of the professional scale, they must be out to kill for their own good.
> 
> Remembering times in the optical Europe when opticians had cartels and just about could force their suppliers to behave the way they wanted or else. These days are over and gone.
> ...


 
Ok Chris tell me this, "Would you dispense information about the products that you sell for a small fee knowing that the person was about to order from a competitor of yours that sold similar products you had at prices you couldn't touch?"

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## ManitobaOD

The REAL problem you face is that the general public has no idea who or what an optician does and why you as a profession are relevant to vision care and the public. True we OD's are in the same boat, however our national and provincial associations have done a moderately good job of informing the public of what our profession does and why it's the public needs us. Some of you may choose to bash myself and other OD's but the fact remains that opticians have not done anything in the way of public awareness to elevate your status as health professionals.
An example, although a poor one is the comparison of a real estate agent, with no restricted acts to their name, real estate agents have made the public aware of the services they provide and the advantages of using their expertise, instead of "selling on your own." Again, some may want to bash what I say, but those same individuals need to nut-up and realize without public awareness you're doomed.

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## uncut

@ManitobaOD:

I am trying to figure out where in this thread any "bashing" of yourself or other ODs is. 

The recent campaigns that your national and provincial associations implemented have gone a long way to raise public awareness. I personally applaud the effort.

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## cleyes

We face the most serious threat to our livelihood to date, and still beating ourselves up about how to give away our valuable professional services!  Gee, maybe these freeloaders won't love us anymore! Boy will they be ****** when they can't waltz in for free advice, free parts, and free services ad infinitum!!!!!!!   These people are USERS, in search of something for nothing.  Ask any of them if they expect to be paid for their time. Very few are ever "converted" to clients, they just know this sucker optical person they can go to for help with their bargains.  
I'd like to boot the first optician who gave away our valuable professional services, establishing a tradition that will be the death of us.  I've said it before, post a menu of FEE FOR SERVICE, CLEARLY STATING  THAT IT DOES NOT APPLY TO GLASSES PURCHASED AT YOUR ESTABLISHMENT.  Your own patients will have a new insight and respect for their purchase when they see what is included as part of the cost of their GREAT new specs.  Stress need for periodic adjustments and consultation for any problems with their eyewear over time. Explain to your patients if asked, you've been inundated by people purchasing "bargain, problem eyewear" who expect you to "fix" them for free.....after all, that's what opticians do!  You can still quietly do charitable pro bono for select individuals as you choose, but this wholesale insecurity has to stop or we'll never be taken seriously'           :hammer::hammer::hammer:

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## Now I See

Just out of curiosity, for those of you who charge for a PD, what do you do when a person that is buying glasses from you asks for their PD?

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## Striderswife

I've never thought about that.  I guess, if I've ordered glasses for a patient, I've already performed the service of measuring their PD.  I'm going to verify the Rx, and provide adjustments whenever they need it.  Technically, that is absorbed in the cost of the glasses?  When they pay the Dr. for the refraction, they (should) get a copy of their Rx.  If they've paid for me to take a necessary measurement, I suppose they're entitled to it.  If they ask for it, I'll give it.  Albeit, with a funny look, like, "why????"  ;)

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## bpmowatson

Heather A, Do you know were I can find what the Indiana Law is on the liabilities of giving P.D. to online buyers? Thanks for you help.

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## elaneo

> Just out of curiosity, for those of you who charge for a PD, what do you do when a person that is buying glasses from you asks for their PD?


That's tough.  You're still responsible if they ask for it, since it is your measurement.  I would charge for service on that product if they buy (frame + lenses).  Obviously you would have to know your product or just review a receipt to verify.
Have a form drawn up saying they're aware of what can happen and that there is a fee for other product serviced at your store.  Then again in the long run you lose many future sales when they need glasses every year/2 years/when they think they need them.


My best idea to fight it is to figure out how I can say PDs are different for each job.  Or say they are custom for each job and must be done (even if it is by the same person) each time for a frame (even if it is the same frame).  It's easier for seg heights or OC height if anyone does them out there, but PDs are a little different.

Or has anyone had Pxs sign a consent form assigning their information (PD) to you when purchasing glasses saying it is custom for each job?  I would find that odd if I were the Px, but it makes sense to do something like this if possible/legal if we want still be considered "health care professionals".  Right now I have more people thinking I only sell glasses than I am a troubleshooting "obstatrician"...



On a side note, has anyone been faced with people that try on a frame in your shop, buy it cheaper online and then come back for lenses?  I mean a sale is a sale, but does anyone have any feelings about this?

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## Now I See

> Heather A, Do you know were I can find what the Indiana Law is on the liabilities of giving P.D. to online buyers? Thanks for you help.


Hi, bpmowatson!

I'm not sure...I'd have to do some checking...you might want to start with the insurance company that you purchase your liability insurance through, they may be able to direct you better/quicker than I can.

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## Now I See

> ....
> My best idea to fight it is to figure out how I can say PDs are different for each job. Or say they are custom for each job and must be done (even if it is by the same person) each time for a frame (even if it is the same frame). It's easier for seg heights or OC height if anyone does them out there, but PDs are a little different.....


FWIW...
During continuing education, someone asked a similar question, something like this..._if you have taken a PD on a patient in the past, is it necessary to take it again in the future? _ The answer was yes, you should take the measurement everytime, because subtle changes can take place over time.

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## Chris Ryser

> *FWIW...*
> *During continuing education, someone asked a similar question, something like this...if you have taken a PD on a patient in the past, is it necessary to take it again in the future? The answer was yes, you should take the measurement everytime, because subtle changes can take place over time.*


 
I did some checking on PD and found the simplest answer that is accessible to just about anybody in this world:

*Pupillary distance*

*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

*Pupillary Distance* (PD) or *interpupillary distance* (IPD) is the distance (the industry standard is to measure in millimeters) between the centers of the pupils in each eye. This measurement is used when preparing to make prescription eyeglasses. Positioning lenses correctly in relation to the centre of the pupils is especially important for higher powered lenses due to the location of the optical centre of the lenses. It can also be relevant to binoculars: they must be adjusted to suit the user's IPD; and the minimum allowed by some binoculars is still too great for people with a small IPD.

*Measuring pupillary distance*

Someone with training in the field of optics can accurately measure your pupillary distance, or you can make an approximate measurement yourself using a ruler, with someones assistance or a mirror. The measurement will usually be taken twice: 1st with the patient focusing at a distance, and 2nd with the patient focusing at something close. The second measurement is used for reading glasses, and bifocals however the rule of thumb is that the so-called "near PD" will be 4 millimetres less than the "far PD" when the far PD is over 60mm, or 3 millimetres less than the far PD when the far PD is undre 60mm. It is recommended, due to accuracy, to measure the PD with a pupilometer, however some practitioners take preliminary measurements with a millimeter ruler placed across the bridge of the nose. You can also measure your PD using a suitable photo and an online pupilometer.
In very young children and babies, where the patient is unlikely to stay still, the optical professional will typically measure from one medial canthus to the other lateral canthus. In this case, measurements are often inaccurate by a few millimetres.

.............and lots more about the issue

source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupillary_distance

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you can get all the information on the web for free. However you do not have the expirience to maybe do it properly. 

Neither does the consumer have the expierience to properly fit the frame when it comes back from the lab.

I wonder when the first of the newest chains or franchises will pop up, called WG Service Station. (Web Glasses Servise Station) and do it all for a fee. Maybe they might even be eqiupped with samples of the frames the on liner sells and you suddenly have BM stores financed by the on liners, when they are ready to become physical and work on quantity.

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## uncut

Interestingly, as this thread was evolving, we had a situation where a long-time customer confronted a staff member about assisting her to purchase a pair on line.  She suggested that she would buy a pair IF she was helped with information to also buy on line.  She was told to take a hike.....

Yesterday she came *back to order*...............stand your ground people.  Without your kind and generous assistance, and possibly liability, internutters cannot thrive. 


"Here for a good time, not a long time...so have a good time.  The sun can't shine every day."---Trooper.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Chris,*
> 
> *If you give a PD to a patient you might as well start your own online optical shop. If your going to advocate it in the patients eye's and you see it as a true inevitability then why settle for a dispensing fee when you can have the whole nut.*


 
At least use a fee schedule of whatever each decides for work done out of the regular routine. 

I don't believe that a regular B&M optician has the funds or the desire to have a real online shop.

Furthermore I do not think that the onliners are going to go away, so you will have to re-think the situation. Do like many optometrists across the country have done for many years, charge a dispensing fee for the specialized work you do instead of a flat all included price for the whole glasses.. 

The onliners sell a semi-finished product, which needs adjustments and care. Furthhermore most of them purchase and have all lab work done in China, so frames or lenses have never touched this continent before final delivery.

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## uncut

A "*real*" online shop.......????    I assume you mean a virtual shop, Chris?

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## Chris Ryser

Call it what you think is right..................to me if the actually sell, they are real...............if they pretend to sell the are virtual

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## Golfnorth

> At least use a fee schedule of whatever each decides for work done out of the regular routine. 
> 
> I don't believe that a regular B&M optician has the funds or the desire to have a real online shop.
> 
> Furthermore I do not think that the onliners are going to go away, so you will have to re-think the situation. Do like many optometrists across the country have done for many years, charge a dispensing fee for the specialized work you do instead of a flat all included price for the whole glasses.. 
> 
> The onliners sell a semi-finished product, which needs adjustments and care. Furthhermore most of them purchase and have all lab work done in China, so frames or lenses have never touched this continent before final delivery.


Chris;

Go back and take a look at post #5 in this thread. 
A fellow optiboarder offers the PD, Rx verification and adjustment of glasses for $30 and they've had no takers.
This is not only very reasonable but a very good value and there have been no takers.
What does that tell you? These eyeglass wearers don't value the role of the eyecare professional and they want everything for free.
Why you think we should twist ourselves out of shape and bend over backwards for these idiots is beyond me.

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## optical maven

> Chris;
> 
> Go back and take a look at post #5 in this thread. 
> A fellow optiboarder offers the PD, Rx verification and adjustment of glasses for $30 and they've had no takers.
> This is not only very reasonable but a very good value and there have been no takers.
> What does that tell you? These eyeglass wearers don't value the role of the eyecare professional and they want everything for free.
> Why you think we should twist ourselves out of shape and bend over backwards for these idiots is beyond me.
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


Just because there are no takers, doesn't mean it's not a good way to manage your business.  If everyone just stood fast and charged fees for their services, that would be the norm.  I have always charged a fee for my services when it is reasonable, and it is never a problem.  Unfortunately this business has been based on a gentleman's agreement of doing things for free.  Didn't opticians jump at the idea of providing "free" autorefracting in order to sell glasses.  This after they spent over $50,000 for equipment to do the autorefracting.  So everyone should just relax and charge for their services and time.  In the end we are a service business and, like lawyers, we charge for our expertise.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Why you think we should twist ourselves out of shape and bend over backwards for these idiots is beyond me.* 
> *Regards,*
> *Golfnorth*


Golfnorth...................The reason why I think so as you say, I hate to see a profession I have learned many years ago, I have lived from all my life, I have well mastered in several different positions,  is maybe going down the drain because some new business ideas have taken root and seem to be florishing.

You call them idiots, however I would take a bet that they would not agree with that term as they might be without a job, have suddenly been degraded to a lower salary and have to save money in every corner. So they buy their glasses on line. There are some others that purchase there because because it is a a sport to them to find items chaeper than through the regular channels.

I am sure that sooner or later these people need the help of a good professional. I really don't see that you have to bend over backwards to make a few dollars from people that would not have been your customers anyway.
regards
Chris


Employment rose by 93,000 in June, pushing the unemployment rate down 0.2 percentage points to 7.9%. This is the first time the rate has been below the 8% mark since January 2009.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/subjects-su...fs-epa-eng.htm

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## MikeAurelius

I've read over this thread with varying amounts of amusement and horror...

First, a little background: I'm the resident manufacturing optician for my company Aura Visual Concepts, Inc. Some of you may know the name as Aura Lens Products, Inc. I've been 'in the business' since 1975 and have seen a continuing evolution of our industry, especially now as it comes to grips with the on-line phenomon (sp) as well as economic issues. My business has evolved from selling semi-finished single vision glass lenses to providing lab services to other labs to selling retail direct. We are one of the last remaining glass-only labs in the United States. We sell only highly specialized glass filters to other labs, doctors and dispensers, and, yes, retail. We don't do "normal" streetwear eyewear.

Part of my horror comes from those of you who view people coming in for a PD measurement as somehow the dregs of society, as being lower than low. Have you ever stopped for a moment to ask yourself WHY they are wanting to use an on-line business? Many times it is because these potential customers can't afford to buy eyewear anywhere else.

Why don't you turn this into an opportunity instead of turning the person away? Every person who walks into your business is a potential customer. If you turn them away (or as I see above, playing some sort of game or trick on them) all you do is make sure they never darken your doorway again. You've actually encouraged them to buy on-line. You've lost yourself a potential customer, someone who may have come into your business again to repair a frame, replace a lost screw, fix a broken hinge, or even to buy a new pair of glasses.

_<whole prices removed>_

And, let's be honest with each other for a moment. It takes about 5 minutes to measure someones PD. Less if you use an electronic device. You've got staff trained to measure PD's don't you? Certainly you don't do it yourself. Where is the liability in putting a PD stick on someones nose and reading it (and giving them the CORRECT number)? The answer is that there is no liability. 

Turn the interchange into an opportunity for some business. Treat the person as if they are a potential customer. Show them your "economy" line. Tell them that you stand behind your products. Give them the pitch as you measure their PD. And, yes, offer to check out the glasses they get from the on-line discounter. But don't charge them for it, do it for *GASP* free. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

For those of you who want to play games, have you fully thought through your actions? If you give them a made up or incorrect PD and the glasses are made to that PD and they are wrong, YOU are liable. You purposely and knowingly provided false medical information to a "patient". You can lose your license for doing that. So why bother? Do it right. Turn the person walking in the door into a customer instead of turning them away and taking the chance that you will never see them again.

I rely on my customer's local opticians and dispensers to provide them with an accurate PD. Remember, the product I sell is unique and generally not available anywhere else. There are many opticians and dispensers who refuse to even consider selling a glass product (even though glass is the only product that can provide certain types of protection to the patient). I strongly encourage my retail customers to develop a relationship with their local optician to provide them the support I cannot. And, yes, I'd honestly rather sell it to you to sell to your patient, but many times you guys/gals simply aren't interested or you are somehow afraid of the "liability of selling glass lenses". It's an opportunity to make a profit that you pass up.

And consider this: Lenscrafters, Pearle Vision, and a host of other "big box store" retailers will measure PD's for free.

Ok, I've gone on long enough and I'm probably now on the sh*t list for at least one or two of you...but I hope that you took the time to read and think about what I've had to say. Enjoy the rest of your day!

----------


## Now I See

> I've read over this thread with varying amounts of amusement and horror...
> 
> First, a little background: I'm the resident manufacturing optician for my company Aura Visual Concepts, Inc. Some of you may know the name as Aura Lens Products, Inc. I've been 'in the business' since 1975 and have seen a continuing evolution of our industry, especially now as it comes to grips with the on-line phenomon (sp) as well as economic issues. My business has evolved from selling semi-finished single vision glass lenses to providing lab services to other labs to selling retail direct. We are one of the last remaining glass-only labs in the United States. We sell only highly specialized glass filters to other labs, doctors and dispensers, and, yes, retail. We don't do "normal" streetwear eyewear.
> 
> Part of my horror comes from those of you who view people coming in for a PD measurement as somehow the dregs of society, as being lower than low. Have you ever stopped for a moment to ask yourself WHY they are wanting to use an on-line business? Many times it is because these potential customers can't afford to buy eyewear anywhere else.
> 
> Why don't you turn this into an opportunity instead of turning the person away? Every person who walks into your business is a potential customer. If you turn them away (or as I see above, playing some sort of game or trick on them) all you do is make sure they never darken your doorway again. You've actually encouraged them to buy on-line. You've lost yourself a potential customer, someone who may have come into your business again to repair a frame, replace a lost screw, fix a broken hinge, or even to buy a new pair of glasses.
> 
> The reality of the economy is that people are looking for any way possible to save money. I get the mailings and faxes, I know that there are "economy" frames available that you and I can buy for $xxxx. You and I both know you can buy uncut CR-39 bifocals for under $xxxx. WHY NOT find a way to serve these people and take some business away from the on-line discounters?
> ...


Hi there! 
I'm going to play "devil's advocate" for a moment....maybe the laws/rules are different in each state, but my concern here is IF I give them the PD that I measure and I find correct, then I am responsible for that measurement (at least that's what we were told in NC Optical Law class)....Now, let's say that the patient enters the wrong number and the glasses are made to the number the patient entered, incorrectly, then who's to say that I didn't give them _that_ number?? It becomes a case of "he-said"/"she-said", doesn't it?

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## MikeAurelius

That's a good point, Heather. I would say that, yes, you are correct, it is your responsibility. However, your responsibility for what the patient does with it ends at the door of your practice.

There's an excellent way to prevent such things from happening: write it down on one of your regular Rx pads -- with the notation that you've only measured the PD. Written documentation goes a long way to avoiding liability (as I'm sure they told you in your law class). If there is a transposition error, or data entry error on the part of the "patient", and you've written down the correct number, you don't have a problem. It's their problem. They made the mistake. Yeah, the blame game is an easy one to make, but written documentation backs up your side.

I had a customer that reported to me 5 different PD's given to her by 4 different practices (and one "big box"). 4 were measured by PD stick, one by electronic device. Which was the correct one? It turned out that the PD given to her by her personal OD and the optician at their attached lab was wrong - they had measured it wrong. Even the electronic device reported the wrong PD. When she went back to the OD/optician and showed them the list, they were shocked. They went back and remeasured her and switched her to a monocular measurement. And remade her personal glasses at no charge. That practice is in my notes as one that can be counted on to be a "good guy". I refer those of my customers who live in that area to that practice when I can.

I guess the point here is that mistakes happen. People will understand an honest mistake and correct it. No one is perfect. Not even electronic devices.

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

Mike :
We can't survive on PD charges . We don't want to be deregulated like BC . We are paying for Bricks and mortar stores not on line stores. Our expenses are higher. Why should we make you legitimate ? Getting a PD is your problem not our problem . You are putting your operation onto our overhead. Are you willing to pay us to provide your PD's ? Are you willing to pay us a portion of our overhead to provide you this service ? 

Why not ? 

Please abide by the rules of this forum as it relates to posting pricing information.

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## finefocus

Also, if I wanted to be a cheap-suit-cheap kind of operation, I'd have done that. We are full service. we spend lots of time fitting, suggesting, learning the wearing pattern of the patient, and so forth. We do superb follow-up service. I can't do the fast shuffle on people, I just can't. You seem to think I should be able to. Cheap is cheap.

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## MikeAurelius

Ok - but how many walk-ins for PD requests do you actually get? You make it sound like there is a thundering horde at your front door. As far as making me legitimate, that's a moot point. I'm already legitimate. You (meaning the broad base of dispensing opticians) did it yourself when you refused to sell a product that your patient can't afford. We can go back and forth on this all day...but I'd rather not. It's been debated to death and then some.

I'm not the bad guy here, and neither are you. Nor is the patient/customer. You freely give your patient a copy of their Rx upon request (yes, the gummint made you do it, but still...). As I said earlier, I don't eat into your profits or your sales. My particular products are highly specialized and not readily available. So far this year, I've sold about 1000 pairs of non-prescription specialty filter eyewear. In that same time period, I sold somewhere around 45 prescriptions in those same highly specialized and not readily available filters to retail customers, 500+ (general glass and special filters) Rx's to labs/dispensing opticians. I'd LOVE, dearly LOVE to sell to you so you could sell to your patients. But time and again, that ugly word "glass" comes up and the optician/dispenser runs screaming for the fallout shelter. If you (again, broad you) won't sell my products, I am forced to sell to the patient/customer.

Degregulation is usually brought about because of complaints by consumers. The optical industry was forced to provide prescriptions to their patients because of complaints. Isn't the PD part of the prescription? I believe it is. You can't manufacture the prescription without it. It's a critical measurement, just as sphere, cylinder, axis, prism and add power is. If you start writing down the PD at the time of the exam, you won't get walk-in's asking to be measured. PD's aren't proprietary in any way whatsoever. They don't belong to you any more than the prescription does.

And as far as pricing information -- I didn't post any pricing information about specific wholesalers/dealers/manufacturers. It was posted as an EXAMPLE, nothing more, and to prove my point: there are people in anyone's city who need inexpensive eyewear. If they can't get it locally, they WILL find it on the internet. Are these people somehow inferior or bad? I'd bet most of them, as noted above by someone else, have fallen on hard times due to the economy. You have a market just waiting to be tapped, but from what I've seen, no one except the internet operations are willing to step up to the plate.

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## MikeAurelius

> Also, if I wanted to be a cheap-suit-cheap kind of operation, I'd have done that. We are full service. we spend lots of time fitting, suggesting, learning the wearing pattern of the patient, and so forth. We do superb follow-up service. I can't do the fast shuffle on people, I just can't. You seem to think I should be able to. Cheap is cheap.


Actually, no, I don't expect you to do "fast shuffle". And I don't recall using the word "cheap". I believe I wrote "economy". Maybe the word means the same, but to me, it means a product line that is less expensive. A frame (AS AN EXAMPLE) that sells for $10 and a pair of uncuts from one of the well-known on-shore manufacturers. There's demand for it, as evidenced by the booming business that the on-line operations appear to be doing. You've already got the patient in your chair for an exam. He/she is ready to buy, but because of home finances, they can't afford (EXAMPLE) $300 on top of the exam costs. They can find it on the internet for (EXAMPLE) $65. Where do you think they are going to go?

Just because you don't give them their PD, doesn't mean they still won't go for the least expensive option. That's what people do in an economy like this. Where is the business right now? Are lots of folks still buying the top dollar frames and top of the line lenses? Or are they spending less money on frames and lenses?

You (broad you) have to compete for your customers/patients. This is the new dynamic. It isn't going to go away. What's the best way to compete? Offer a product they can afford to purchase. Can anyone compete with an on-line lab? Sure they can. Just because they don't have a retail store doesn't mean they don't have a facility somewhere with lots of employees and lots of equipment. They are exactly the same as the large optical lab operations. Same costs. Same expenses. The only thing that they do differently is that instead of having dispensing opticians on the floor greeting patients in a showroom, they have a file server receiving orders. THAT IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE (caps for emphasis).

What do you have? A dispensing optician on the floor greeting patients in a showroom. Experienced personnel ready to talk and make a sale. A face-to-face relationship that you can't get over the internet. You automatically engender trust. Your business has been there for many years. They walk in your door because they want to do business with you. Are you going to let them walk back out without a sale?

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## idispense

What kind of filters and lenses do you sell ? Do you have a web site ?

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## pseudonym

Why not provide the pd?  And not just the numbers but the numbers committed to paper making sure that they see the pupillometer reading. People tend to view digital readouts as gospel and pd stick readings as magic.

Then encourage them to come back with their internet glasses for verification, hoping of course that they are dissatisfied and ready to order a new pair from a real optical shop. 

I haven't had any internet glasses under the lensometer.  I'm very curious to know if they are any good. That way I can answer the question everybody asks me: Glasses are glasses, right? Internet glasses are way cheaper, so why not buy them?

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## finefocus

> I haven't had any internet glasses under the lensometer. I'm very curious to know if they are any good. That way I can answer the question everybody asks me: Glasses are glasses, right? Internet glasses are way cheaper, so why not buy them?


From what you can see in a lensometer, they're probably fine. Getting the power right, grinding the right backside curve, is the easy part. Automation can address much of this. We see lots of glasses problems from outside our practice that have nothing to do with lens power. There is so much more to it than that.

I probably owe some apology to MikeA for lumping him with other on-liners; perhaps he doesn't have the cynical twist of mind that wants to use people like us(people stupid enough to pay rent and inventory costs) to compensate for the shortcomings of their business model.

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## MikeAurelius

> I probably owe some apology to MikeA for lumping him with other on-liners; perhaps he doesn't have the cynical twist of mind that wants to use people like us(people stupid enough to pay rent and inventory costs) to compensate for the shortcomings of their business model.


Nahhh, no worries, but much appreciated!! I occasionally come of a bit brash and sometimes brusk - I'll tell you exactly what I think, I usually don't sugar coat it. 

I don't take a cynical point of view of "our" business. There are a lot of different ways to operate a business these days, and I honestly don't think you should view the on-line operation as a bad thing. The patient/customer HAS to start with his butt in your exam chair. There is still (and for the long forseeable future) no way to get an exam, thorough and complete, on-line. But, you have complete control as to what happens after that. I believe that this is where the old-school model fails. It was originally predicated on the basis of the doctors office with an attached dispensary. The patient was pretty much locked in to buy his/her eyewear in your store. That model disappeared when the FTC (or whoever) decided that the patient has the right to buy their eyewear anywhere they want.

By the way, I totally disagree with your statement that the on-line retail does not have rent and inventory costs. I'd be willing to bet that their rent costs are higher than yours and that they carry perhaps as much as three times as much inventory as you do. Just because a business is on-line does not mean the do not have a physical location, inventory, employees and insurance.

[warning: I'm about to get blunt, read only at the risk of your high blood pressure.] Instead of changing with the times, and accepting change as a good thing, the average doctor/optician decided that change, especially that change was not a good thing. Then, the optical "super stores" started opening up. This occured about the time that CR-39 started making major inroads on the glass industry (I was there, I know). Lenscrafters and their 'glasses in an hour' changed the industry pretty much overnight. What did the doctor/dispenser do? Kept on with the same business model. Deregulation and more changes in the business. Polycarbonate. In-mold polarized lenses. Transitions. Progressives (I still say they have lousy optics and will never wear them personally). Doctor/dispenser model still doesn't change. On-line dispensing. Model still hasn't changed, but now the doctor/dispenser is really starting to feel a pinch. Lousy economy. On-line dispensing gains some significant business share. Has the model changed yet? Nope. It's been 15 to 18 years and the model is exactly the same despite obvious proof that it can't compete.

You (broad you) get mad when someone innocently asks for a PD measurement. You (broad you) come up with all sorts of reasons NOT to do it, or to figure out a way to make a profit off of it. Look -- the model doesn't apply any longer. You need to come up with a new approach. 

...wait for it...




Why aren't you competing with the on-line stores locally? Why don't you put up a on-line store yourself for your "local" patients (maybe with a 100 mile radius). Offer your patients a way to order their eyewear on-line, give them a discount because they do it on-line but follow it up with an in-person delivery and fitting. Send a letter to all your patients giving them the website address and perhaps a customer code of some kind that will link an Rx record to their order.

Instead of saying no, find a way to say yes.

My lady once told me that once you stop trying to win, you can have a conversation. Have that conversation with your patient.

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## pseudonym

> From what you can see in a lensometer, they're probably fine. Getting the power right, grinding the right backside curve, is the easy part. Automation can address much of this. We see lots of glasses problems from outside our practice that have nothing to do with lens power. There is so much more to it than that.



All our hypothetical Aunt Bertha knows is that the optician at such-and-such place tried to sell her something called AR which added a hundred bucks to her bill, but she found glasses at the z place with AR for five bucks additional. So she feels cheated by Mr. Brick and Mortar. We know she isn't getting Crizal from the z place, but it will be easier to let the peeling and crazing start on her internet glasses than to try and explain the difference. 

Never mind trying to point out that all the z place does is take half of the B,  because they are halfway around the world and can't see where her pupil is in the lens. For all they know, they've put her pupil right in the distortion zone, but what the hey. If the first pair of $39.00 glasses don't work, she can buy a half a dozen more and still save money. One pair has to work, right? 

I have my doubts that internet labs are essentially the same as stateside wholesale labs, too. Cheap cut rate untrained overseas labor, cheap cut rate products. Oh yeah, it's all the same.  Sure it is.

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## MikeAurelius

And there's your opportunity staring you right in the face. How are you going to handle it? How are you going to compete?

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## pseudonym

> And there's your opportunity staring you right in the face. How are you going to handle it? How are you going to compete?


The only thing the majority of consumers are interested in with glasses is price. Until the glasses don't work. Then people suddenly develop a concern about their vision. The initial reason they went to the internet remains the same and so does the dilemma- no optical shop can compete with the internet for price unless they want to skirt all the laws that say they have to pay the lab workers minimum wage etc.

I'm thinking it's best to aid and abet people buying their first pair online, then hope they come back to the nice optician who helped them get their pd so they could place the order. But protect yourself by showing them the pupillometer readout, and make sure they write it down while they are looking at it. Because when they complain to their overseas EC provider, the measurements will be the first place they put the blame for bad eyewear. What else can they blame it on? Their own poor quality control? 

Realize that I'm assuming the eyewear is bad without really knowing. I know that I can check it out for badness way more effectively than the ordinary consumer can. I would be willing to do that just to find out if internet glasses are as bad as we make them out to be.

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## uncut

@Mikey!

Let's get one thing straight....If you can stand at the nearest intersection in my jurisdiction I operate in, and *legally* do what you do, then you have CREDIBILITY,

If you can legally do in your local jurisdiction, i.e. dispense, then you have CREDIBILITY, and I may assist your customer, as your proxy.    BUT......if you can not dispense in any jurisdiction to the general public, you are *a hazard*.  I, must, therefore, in the interest of public safety, and as a healthcare worker, protect the public from you.

Show me your license to dispense in Canada!

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## MikeAurelius

What are you afraid of, uncut? That I sold a pair of prescription specialized filter lenses in Canada? I'd have to go back and check, but off the top of my head, I don't think I've shipped any prescription eyewear to anyone in Canada. I've certainly shipped a few pair to US border towns, but I don't immediately recall any prescriptions going to Canada. Plenty of non-prescription stuff, but no Rx's. Sorry to burst your balloon. 

Protect the public from me???? LMAO @ uncut...that's a good one, bud.

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## uncut

> What are you afraid of, uncut? That I sold a pair of prescription specialized filter lenses in Canada? I'd have to go back and check, but off the top of my head, I don't think I've shipped any prescription eyewear to anyone in Canada. I've certainly shipped a few pair to US border towns, but I don't immediately recall any prescriptions going to Canada. Plenty of non-prescription stuff, but no Rx's. Sorry to burst your balloon. 
> 
> Protect the public from me???? LMAO @ uncut...that's a good one, bud.


  :Cool: LYAO all you want.
Part of my occupation is to ensure the general public is safely served.  To that end...providing a lab information to partially produce a RX medical device would be a risk of harm, IMO, shared by many.

The general public can order anything they want for their own use, or for an immediate family member, but it is illegal for them to do it for someone else.   This is the law in my country.  Your* begging* ECPs to help you produce product that you could not do legally here, is pathetic.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

The on-line eyeglass suppliers are based on a parasitic business model.  To maintain lower prices these outlets must depend on knowledgeable optical professionals for support in measurements and product support.  Once access to this base is denied, such ventures quickly encounter customer service issues that cannot readily be addressed.

A typical brick and mortar store has overhead the on-line suppliers can avoid such as qualified staff, inventory, and physical location.  Employees in these optical retails must generate income to sustain the operation and, when calculated, this translates into a minimum amount each employee must bring in daily to pay basic costs.  Each hour wasted, i.e., taking free measurements, repairing eyeglasses purchased elsewhere, verifying prescriptions from on-line suppliers, actually harms this effort.  In other words there is no free lunch, only parasitic drag on an operation.

If you operate a brick and mortar outlet and would like to expand into the parasitic model, I suggest that you contact the online suppliers and offer to purchase their products for 10 - 20% under cost.  That would allow you to pass on savings to the public and increase gross sales for the on-line operations.

Roy

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## MikeAurelius

> Your* begging* ECPs to help you produce product that you could not do legally here, is pathetic.


BEGGING? I've done no such thing. And actually, if I was a resident of Canada, I could very well do it "legally". But since I'm not, the whole point of your comment is moot.

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## Barry Santini

I am so FIRMLY in disagreement regarding the idea that "people are, more than ever, poor and cannot afford eyewear in B&Ms, and must seek online." 

Heck, I send them to COSTCO, where the quality, cost and service by skilled and licensed NYS Ophthalmic dispensers are a given. When you compare Costco to online, their is no comparison.

And did Costco Optical put YOU out of business?

Sheesh!

B

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## MikeAurelius

> A typical brick and mortar store has overhead the on-line suppliers can avoid such as qualified staff, inventory, and physical location. Employees in these optical retails must generate income to sustain the operation and, when calculated, this translates into a minimum amount each employee must bring in daily to pay basic costs. Each hour wasted, i.e., taking free measurements, repairing eyeglasses purchased elsewhere, verifying prescriptions from on-line suppliers, actually harms this effort. In other words there is no free lunch, only parasitic drag on an operation.


Roy, with all due respect, this is a very common mis-perception. On-line business HAVE to have a physical location somewhere in order to produce their product. They have to have inventory in order to produce their product. They have to have staff (yes, qualified) to produce their product. As proof, you use the negatively connoted word "parasitic". In fact they are no more parasitic than the brick and mortar store down the street from you that competes with your store.

With the advent of computerized laboratory processing, so-called "unskilled" or perhaps "untrained" labor can make eyewear that meets every single quality standard you care to present. 

What is missing, as I've pointed out above, is the personal interaction to finish the sale. There are no fitting, no adjustments, nothing like that. This is YOUR opportunity to turn the eyewear experience around with the patient.

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## MikeAurelius

> I am so FIRMLY in disagreement regarding the idea that "people are, more than ever, poor and cannot afford eyewear in B&Ms, and must seek online."


Barry -- you need to get outside NYC and into the real world.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

Unfortunately, “parasitic” is the most appropriate term to describe the on-line operations.  How else can such businesses obtain accurate measurements and provide product support.  This cannot be compared to another B&M establishment down the street.  In that case neither outlet depends on the other for basic professional support.  

I go back to my original suggestion.  Let the B&M outlets purchase product from the on-line operations for less than cost.  The brick and mortar operations could explain how the savings were created thus insuring additional customers for the on-line merchants and allowing it an “opportunity to turn the eyewear experience around with the patient.”

Roy

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## Barry Santini

> Barry -- you need to get outside NYC and into the real world.


Even if I am naive about real world conditions outside of NY, Costco pricing is consistent across the country.  $28.95 complete SV.  $99.00 for Ovation with frame.  $55 Complete for bifocals.

Why go online, I ask?

B

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## MikeAurelius

> Unfortunately, “parasitic” is the most appropriate term to describe the on-line operations. How else can such businesses obtain accurate measurements and provide product support. This cannot be compared to another B&M establishment down the street. In that case neither outlet depends on the other for basic professional support.


I totally disagree.

The retail optical store down the street is a "parasite" on the OD's operation if they don't have their own OD. You seem to think that the OD/Store combo is the best "use", when in fact it is most likely just the opposite. Stand alone stores (independant or not) without OD's do just as well, and in a lot of cases, better, than stores with an on-site OD.

I'm not advocating that the OD stand alone, far from it. Just pointing out that the business model, as I wrote above, is out-moded and obsolete in today's real-life on-line environment. I believe that you (broad you) need to acknowledge and recognize that the on-line operations are not going to simply go away. They are here to stay. Then you have to decide how you are going to compete with them and get your business back. I've offered up a few suggestions, but at the end of the day it's certainly your choice. But you just can't ignore the problem and hope it will go away.

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## MikeAurelius

> Even if I am naive about real world conditions outside of NY, Costco pricing is consistent across the country. $28.95 complete SV. $99.00 for Ovation with frame. $55 Complete for bifocals.
> 
> Why go online, I ask?
> 
> B


Wow...those are great prices! Why go on-line? It has to do a lot with a generational thing. The gen-ex'ers and millenials are being brought up in an on-line environment, where everything from television to movies to shopping is done on-line. It's easier to sit at home behind the laptop and pull up a website to buy what you need than it is to hop in the car and chase around town trying to find the best deal. (And face it, it's also less expensive on gas for the car and far less wear and tear on the patience.)

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## HarryChiling

Online vendors make "zero" attempt to fit within the accepted standard of care set by the profession.  I didn't make the rules I abide by them, and by abiding by them I am afforded the luxury of calling myself a professional and my work as quality.  There is not one online vendor that can "truly" say that.  They can print that on their sites, and come here and boast of their so called careers in the profession, but none of that means a thing to a patient who's eye wear was guesstimated.

Over the years there has been many attempts to pilfer the public's dollars with schemes that reduce quality or cut corners, this is just another example.  If you pride your work and the work you provide your patients then say "No" to the PD but do it nicely, do it with an explanation, do it so that you are not belittling them.  Offer them your services at the price you deem fair and if you can go lower then do so in those instances where the patient is in need.  Do not let any other business model take advantage of you, do not let an online slickster convince you that your services are overpriced, do not let the patient make you feel obligated to serve them for "FREE".

MikeA - No need to respond, as soon as you start charging cost (Zero Profit) for your eye wear that's when I'll start taking PD's for "FREE" and we'll continue this conversation.

Here is an example of a typical online sale that I have used as an example to many patients with success.

http://www.ecpmag.com/1webmagazine/2...dispensers.asp

Those really cheap glasses for under $10.00 well you know where they come from and those countries tend to like to put heavy metals in their frames, so a couple of well placed words like cadmium or lead, I usually tell people that if they are willing to try it then good for them, but please don't ever put your children in them.

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## MikeAurelius

> Those really cheap glasses for under $10.00 well you know where they come from and those countries tend to like to put heavy metals in their frames, so a couple of well placed words like cadmium or lead, I usually tell people that if they are willing to try it then good for them, but please don't ever put your children in them.


A true professional would not use cheap scare tactics like that.

And just so you know, I actually give eyewear away for free -- specialized filters for children of parents who blow glass. When was the last time you did that regularly?

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## DragonLensmanWV

> A true professional would not use cheap scare tactics like that.
> 
> And just so you know, I actually give eyewear away for free -- specialized filters for children of parents who blow glass. When was the last time you did that regularly?


http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...hlight=cadmium
Check the post by Jerry Huang, he knows what he's talking about as he is a Chinese frame manufacturer.

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## MikeAurelius

Okaaaay...but first of all, the post is 3 years old (not that it means anything, but I personally take a cynical point of view on anything older than about a year), next, he was talking about only one process, plating matte black on a metal frame and also said that ANY manufacturer who does it that particular way, whether they are Chinese or Italian, will have heavy metals on the frame. Post #5 and post #6.

I think it's a cheap shot to use that kind of fear factor as Harry is talking about. It's definately unprofessional, and potentially illegal. You can't denigrate a product without first hand knowledge. Using vague misleading statements to convince a consumer that a given product is somehow dangerous has been found time and again to be illegal. Definately not professional.

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## braheem24

> Using vague misleading statements to convince a consumer that a given product is somehow dangerous has been found time and again to be illegal. Definately not professional.


You could sell them the best product in the world and it would still be 'illegal', 'dangerous' or any other adjective you choose to describe an action done outside the guidelines set by law in my state.

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## Golfnorth

> Okaaaay...but first of all, the post is 3 years old (not that it means anything, but I personally take a cynical point of view on anything older than about a year), next, he was talking about only one process, plating matte black on a metal frame and also said that ANY manufacturer who does it that particular way, whether they are Chinese or Italian, will have heavy metals on the frame. Post #5 and post #6.
> 
> I think it's a cheap shot to use that kind of fear factor as Harry is talking about. It's definately unprofessional, and potentially illegal. You can't denigrate a product without first hand knowledge. Using vague misleading statements to convince a consumer that a given product is somehow dangerous has been found time and again to be illegal. Definately not professional.


OK Mike;

I say you wear one of the black matte metals frames and go away for 4 years. Then kindly report back to us here how your "first hand" knowledge was.

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## NorthStar

Defending online eyeglasses as an alternative for people that can't afford it...if they were truly poor they would not have a computer, internet access and/or cable.  Or has the definition of poor evolved to the point that the basics now include a TV and computer?

It is the free services ECP's provide, 2-4-1, 2nd pair free, ect. that have devalued the public perception of eyecare and eyewear to the point that they should be cheap and free.  Even though there are already enough optical stores providing cheap, the internet is assumed to be even cheaper since it is do-it-yourself eliminating the ECP.  If those services are free, it may be promoting the idea that maybe anybody can do it.
Even with contacts, our price is often within +-$10, but some patients believe the internet is cheaper no matter what we tell or demonstrate to them.

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## Barry Santini

> Defending online eyeglasses as an alternative for people that can't afford it...if they were truly poor they would not have a computer, internet access and/or cable. Or has the definition of poor evolved to the point that the basics now include a TV and computer?
> 
> It is the free services ECP's provide, 2-4-1, 2nd pair free, ect. that have devalued the public perception of eyecare and eyewear to the point that they should be cheap and free. Even though there are already enough optical stores providing cheap, the internet is assumed to be even cheaper since it is do-it-yourself eliminating the ECP. If those services are free, it may be promoting the idea that maybe anybody can do it.
> Even with contacts, our price is often within +-$10, but some patients believe the internet is cheaper no matter what we tell or demonstrate to them.


If ECPs are to truly charitable, they'd help with the measurements and perform the online sourcing

FWIW

B

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## Tonyc

At the end of the day, the online industry is growing.  You can find a way to profit from it, or continue to see your customers disappear & buy their glasses online.  Thinking you hold all the cards is not smart and you're in for a big surprise.  In the near future, everyone will change their stance on giving out the PD's and  how to handle those "lost" customers.

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## Tonyc

Won't be long before some guy picks this up and offers the service for approx $10 a shot....http://cgi.ebay.ca/Professional-Digi...efaultDomain_0

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## uncut

> Won't be long before some guy picks this up and offers the service for approx $10 a shot....http://cgi.ebay.ca/Professional-Digi...efaultDomain_0


Illegal to do in most provinces.......for an immediate family member only, ok, but not for anyone else.  That is a regulated act.

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## uncut

> At the end of the day, the online industry is growing. You can find a way to profit from it, or continue to see your customers disappear & buy their glasses online. Thinking you hold all the cards is not smart and you're in for a big surprise. In the near future, everyone will change their stance on giving out the PD's and how to handle those "lost" customers.


Interesting facts posted here.  How much is it growing, since inception.  

What is the suprise?

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## MikeAurelius

> Illegal to do in most provinces.......for an immediate family member only, ok, but not for anyone else. That is a regulated act.


Measuring PD's is a regulated act? Where? Can you quote the regulation, article and section that calls it out?

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## Chris Ryser

> IY Measure your own PD with iPhone 
> *I was following the post about patients asking for their PD measurement to 'take away'. Coincidentally, just got this in this AM from the UK 'Optician' magazine.
> 
> Wonder if Steve Jobs measured HIS PD this way???
> 
> *http://www.opticianonline.net/Articl...asure+PD+.html


On a new thread in the generalForum, the Iphone will now do it all at no charge

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## braheem24

...and they can tint thier own lenses with rit dye a micorwave.

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## uncut

> Measuring PD's is a regulated act? Where? Can you quote the regulation, article and section that calls it out?


Aim to please, Mike!  I will find the links to the Healthcare acts from the Govt. of Canada, federal, and at least one of the ten provinces, when I get to my other office tonight.  I wil post them, then.

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## MichaelP

> Interesting facts posted here.  How much is it growing, since inception.  
> 
> What is the suprise?


Online sales were only about 2% of the total optical market last year. How long has FramesDirect been in business? Since 1998? They did around $10 million in sales last year, according to a report Essilor released recently. And they're the largest.

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## MikeAurelius

> Aim to please, Mike! I will find the links to the Healthcare acts from the Govt. of Canada, federal, and at least one of the ten provinces, when I get to my other office tonight. I wil post them, then.


LOL, thanks!

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## uncut

> Measuring PD's is a regulated act? Where? Can you quote the regulation, article and section that calls it out?


The first link, Canada, province of Manitoba, the first province to have a dispensing Act.  A freshly Assented Act called the Regulated Health Professions Act.  

http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/2009/c01509e.php#

Check Definitions, Part I, Reserved Acts, Part 2,

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## Chris Ryser

> *...and they can tint thier own lenses with rit dye a micorwave.*


Looks like you can do anything these days...............however the Iphone actually measures a PD to 200th/mm exact...............*no optician needed*, as per link on my post above.   

http://www.opticianonline.net/Articl...asure+PD+.html

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## uncut

Update:    Anecdotal information....In conversation with a retail chain optician, the Lion's Club collection boxes have been benefitting with *more donated eyewear*!!!!

The source?..........An *increase* due to people leaving glasses purchased from internet sellers, because *they don't work!*

*WIN WIN!*

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## Chris Ryser

> *The source?..........An increase due to people leaving glasses purchased from internet sellers, because they don't work!*
> 
> *WIN WIN!*


 

COASTAL CONTACTS INC NAMED AS ONE OF THE TOP 25 EXPORTERS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA  
Vancouver, BC  October 5, 2010 - Coastal Contacts Inc., the worlds largest online retailer of contact lenses and eyeglasses, was named by the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters (CME) and the Ministry of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development to receive a BC Export Award as one of the top 25 exporters in British Columbia in 2010. 

Coastal Contacts Inc, exports contact lenses and eyeglasses to more than 150 countries around the world. Currently in their tenth year of business, *Coastal Contacts has become the largest online retailer in Canada with fiscal 2009 revenues of $140 million.* 

"We are honored to be named among the top exporters in the province, and we will continue to expand our reach globally, extending the positive impact it has on the economy in British Columbia." states Founder and CEO Roger Hardy. 

Coastal Contacts Inc employs more than 230 employees in their Vancouver based head office, supporting all business functions internally. In the past two years the Company has built a world class eyeglasses manufacturing facility in Vancouver, creating more than 80 new full time positions. 

The BC Export Awards are co-hosted annually by Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters (CME) and the Ministry of Small Business, Technology and Economic development. 
-30- 
About Coastal Contacts: 
Coastal Contacts Inc. is the worlds leading direct-to-consumer vision products company which designs, produces and distributes a diversified offering of contact lenses and eyeglasses. The Companys unique combination of branded and private label products represent quality, value and above all, service. Coastal sells into more than 150 countries through proprietary web properties which reflect the culture and consumer preference of the target market. As new markets for eyeglasses and contact lenses evolve, the Company is positioned to become the vision product consumers retailer of choice owing to its compelling value proposition combining value and service. A leader in many of its markets, Coastal is rapidly advancing toward its goal of becoming the "Worlds Optical Store". 

http://media.integratir.com/t.coa/Pr...rt%20Award.pdf

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## jefe

I was asked if I would neutralize a pair of glasses and hand the findings to the person.  I declined.

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## Chris Ryser

If Coastal sells 10,000 pairs a day, who gives the PD's ???.........................

How do we explain that ?  Are either opticians ignorant of these facts or just prefer to ignore the threat to their liveli hood until its finally too late ?

What prohibits another company to become another big startup in the on ligne opticals ?

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## Barry Santini

PDs don't matter to most.

Just poll any OTC wearer

B

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## framehustler

I was asked for a PD last week, she was upfront and told me she was getting a cheap pair online, but would also buy a pair from me.. so whoring myself out ...I did it! She did buy a pair, but I let her know there is a difference between what she was being asked for "62" and actually measuring monocular PDs and OC ht. I let her know my SV lenses are freeform which provided quality that can not be achieved online... all this making me feel better "I was superior" to tell her all this.   

Two days ago I have an elderly woman in a wheelchair she bought progressives online ..she couldn't see, they were drill mount, transition, ar coated.. she paid $200. I wonder now did someone "give" her a PD and she thought she was good to go. You don't even know their rx, if its expired if they are a 
-5.00  or what..  I was a *****, but not any more. It's not about an extra $20 in ur pocket, its about that person.. maybe its ur 75 year old mother that thinks she can stretch her social security money to get eyewear online and pay the electric, or a young mom with 2 kids at home.. Id rather sell them the "right" pair and make $20 profit and go to sleep with a good conscious then get $20 bucks for a PD.

Standards are being side stepped. We all need to revolt against this. Tell your frame reps my story.. email them a copy.

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## Geirskogul

> your frame reps my story.. email them a copy.


Maybe after it has been edited for grammar, clarity, and point.  





> I was asked if I would neutralize a pair of glasses and hand the findings to the person. I declined.



I would decline, too

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## jynxy

lets be honest. with a steady hand, a school ruler and a mirror, they've got their pd. Once they figure this our, we're in trouble.

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## uncut

> lets be honest. with a steady hand, a school ruler and a mirror, they've got their pd. Once they figure this our, we're in trouble.


Welcome to the forum, jinx!!   Since this is your first post...I'll go easy on you :Rolleyes: 


Let's be *really* honest...what you describe is a self-measurement that would *not*, repeat *not* be used by any caring ECP to fabricate a pair of eyewear for any consumer.  It will suffice for an on-line internutter order, cause they don't care what number you provide, as long as you provide one!  If you are truly an "optometrist", and I highly doubt it, *you slept through a few classes*.

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## jynxy

I'm with you. What I'm saying is we've got to see it from the "internutters" point of view. They read the wikipedia definition of pd and put two and two together. Some of the online companies are even offering "free pd rulers". This area is going to explode and rather than berate, which will not in any way stop the drift to online, a different strategy is required for tackling this major problem. Big question is how to do this?

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