# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  How to compete with on-line optical businesses ............................

## Chris Ryser

I have been thinking how I could start an immediately profitable optical retail store on a new basic idea. It is all open for discussion ........................


*Location:*  Small industrial unit in an industrial park close to a bus stop, plenty of parking                               spaces, big sign on street side advertising renters names and business.
                Store at front entrance, cut and grind lab and storage in warehouse area. Office space in                 between. Rent not more than $ 2500.00 plus tax (refundable)

*Design:*    Simple and basic

*Lab:*        Basic used modern equipment including basic services for tinting, basic coating and AR                   coat stripping which are not provided now. No AR coating unit.



*Sales pricing of Products:* 

*Policy:*     Prices are not including any conventional optical services, as taking measurements, fitting               and adjusting service. 

*Frames:*    Similar to average of 10 most popular online opticals.

*Lenses:*    Similar to average of 10 most popular online opticals. 

*PD only
measurement:*    $....................... (propose  $ 25.00)

*Full 
measurements:*  $.................... . (propose  $ 45.00)

*One time 
adjustments:*     $.......................    (propose  $ 55.00)

*Any time
adjustments:*     $.......................   (propose  $ 90.00)

*Assistance to
choose frames:*$......................(propose $ 85.00 per hour service charge)

*Any type of
optical work:* $........................ (propose $ 85.00 per hour service charge)



At this stage we could charge on a local stage basic prices as the one liners do, competing with them on their level with the added benefits, they now do not get.

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## Golfnorth

> I have been thinking how I could start an immediately profitable optical retail store on a new basic idea. It is all open for discussion ........................
> 
> 
> *Location:*  Small industrial unit in an industrial park close to a bus stop, plenty of parking                               spaces, big sign on street side advertising renters names and business.
>                 Store at front entrance, cut and grind lab and storage in warehouse area. Office space in                 between. Rent not more than $ 2500.00 plus tax (refundable)
> 
> *Design:*    Simple and basic
> 
> *Lab:*        Basic used modern equipment including basic services for tinting, basic coating and AR                   coat stripping which are not provided now. No AR coating unit.
> ...


In my opinion the only way for you to have some credibility here regarding your advice on how to compete with the on-liners is for you to actually take your own advice and start such a business and report back to us.

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## tx11

Chris, the problem and the answer is low prices. People want inexpensive glasses.Eyeglasses are durable goods...if you sell a decent quality product it will last at least a year. You must have an high enough margin to keep your doors open and earn a living until the pts come back the following year. At such low margins you would have to have extremely high volume almost immediately. Many people would probably get their PD for free somewhere else and come get their glasses from you (so you would miss out on that revenue more often than not).
 To sell low end it would probably be better to have more than one type of business operating out of the same location...share the expenses and overlap the customers. :Biggrin:

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## optical24/7

Chris, there are already a ton of B&M's out there that sell for internut prices. Just a few of them....

http://www.americasbest.com/eyeglasses  2pair for 69 bucks

http://www.eyeglassworld.com/promotions/  2 pair for 78 bucks

http://www.jcpenneyoptical.com/offers-discounts/ one pair 29.99

http://www.eyemart.com/coupons/  2 pair for 69 bucks


 As a highly skilled Optician, you would be better off spending 8-12k a month on a storefront with a ton of foot traffic in an upscale urban area, carrying high-end products and offer un-paralleled service and knowledge.

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## tx11

> Chris, there are already a ton of B&M's out there that sell for internut prices. Just a few of them....
> 
> http://www.americasbest.com/eyeglasses  2pair for 69 bucks
> 
> http://www.eyeglassworld.com/promotions/  2 pair for 78 bucks
> 
> http://www.jcpenneyoptical.com/offers-discounts/ one pair 29.99
> 
> http://www.eyemart.com/coupons/  2 pair for 69 bucks
> ...


PLUS I would bet that the opticians that work in those places make very little money :Frown:

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## idispense

its a race to zero on the front end 
but very profitable on the back end

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## tx11

> its a race to zero on the front end 
> but very profitable on the back end


 :Unsure:

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## chaoticneutral

> Chris, there are already a ton of B&M's out there that sell for internut prices. Just a few of them....
> 
> http://www.americasbest.com/eyeglasses  2pair for 69 bucks
> 
> http://www.eyeglassworld.com/promotions/  2 pair for 78 bucks
> 
> http://www.jcpenneyoptical.com/offers-discounts/ one pair 29.99
> 
> http://www.eyemart.com/coupons/  2 pair for 69 bucks
> ...


http://www.stantonoptical.com/ This is another 2 pair for 69 with a free eye exam. That's tough to compete with, even on line

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## tx11

> http://www.stantonoptical.com/ This is another 2 pair for 69 with a free eye exam. That's tough to compete with, even on line


Do you think that IF you had a shop that offered BOTH middle of the road product and low end product that the majority of customers would choose low end? :Unsure:

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## tx11

STORE FRONT....What other business is it best to be located next to or close to (besides ODs &OMDs)? :Happy:

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## Chris Ryser

> Chris, there are already a ton of B&M's out there that sell for internut prices. Just a few of them....
> 
> http://www.americasbest.com/eyeglasses  2pair for 69 bucks
> 
> http://www.eyeglassworld.com/promotions/  2 pair for 78 bucks
> 
> http://www.jcpenneyoptical.com/offers-discounts/ one pair 29.99
> 
> http://www.eyemart.com/coupons/  2 pair for 69 bucks
> ...




To make myself clearer I have modified my first post with some real figures that make more sense that none. I do want to make a decent income by being cheap and just make some money for invested time.
I believe I would be ahead of the on-line optical. Check  it out.

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## tx11

> I have been thinking how I could start an immediately profitable optical retail store on a new basic idea. It is all open for discussion ........................
> 
> 
> *Location:*  Small industrial unit in an industrial park close to a bus stop, plenty of parking                               spaces, big sign on street side advertising renters names and business.
>                 Store at front entrance, cut and grind lab and storage in warehouse area. Office space in                 between. Rent not more than $ 2500.00 plus tax (refundable)
> 
> *Design:*    Simple and basic
> 
> *Lab:*        Basic used modern equipment including basic services for tinting, basic coating and AR                   coat stripping which are not provided now. No AR coating unit.
> ...


I still think that people will bring you their PDs that they got for free and take your unadjusted glasses to somewhere else to get them adjusted for free. Now that being said you could treat it like tire sales...sell the lenses and frames separate and then charge to edge and mount them...just sayin' (they would be hard pressed to find a place that could or would be willing for a nominal fee).

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## Chris Ryser

> *I still think that people will bring you their PDs that they got for free and take your unadjusted glasses to somewhere else to get them adjusted for free. Now that being said you could treat it like tire sales...sell the lenses and frames separate and then charge to edge and mount them...just sayin' (they would be hard pressed to find a place that could or would be willing for a nominal fee).
> *



On my proposal there is no acceptance of outside PDs, no sales of frames or lenses to take out. 

I would make a living mainly from service charges not from selling the actual product. However I would do any type of outside work this profession can provide and I can do for an hourly price of $ 85.00.

Thanks for the tip and I re-corrected the my first post. I might even end up making some money after all.

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## Chris Ryser

> *STORE FRONT....What other business is it best to be located next to or close to (besides ODs &OMDs)?*



My imaginary store, subject of this thread, is nowhere close to any one of them, it is in an industrial park.

It contains any type of products, from high end to low end, only the basic pricing is on a similar footing as the products sold on-line. 

So I will not be upset if you come in with a pair of glasses purchased on-line to have them checked and adjusted. I will apply my price list published in post 1 of this thread and charge for the work you want me to do. So I will get for whatever you want me to do.

Furthermore nobody will be able to claim that they have been pushed to purchase any high end materials as the markup on sold products is minimal.

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## m0002a

> *PD only
> measurement:*    $....................... (propose  $ 25.00)
> 
> *Full 
> measurements:*  $.................... . (propose  $ 45.00)
> 
> *One time 
> adjustments:*     $.......................    (propose  $ 55.00)
> 
> ...


I would suggest $25 for lifetime mono-PD. They shouldn't ever change, so this is a bargain.

I don't know what "full measurements" means, since I think any other measurement requires a frame, which I assume are being purchased online.

I think the others are a little too high, and all prices should be fixed charges (not hourly), unless you are just trying to scare people off.

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## idispense

the most successful on liners make their money by reverse engineering the profit and the loss which is why you cant compete.

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## optical24/7

> In my opinion the only way for you to have some credibility here regarding your advice on how to compete with the on-liners is for you to actually take your own advice and start such a business and report back to us.
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


Chris, you already have a warehouse and all the stuff you list you'd need. I agree with Golf on this one...

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## Hayde

I really enjoy the thought experiment!  Thanks for the tour, Chris!

It seems to me you're not so much competing with online opticals as finding a niche around them in a future where they've taken over the market to a degree that none of your brick-and-morter competition is adjusting eyelgasses for free any more.  I like the idea of the "subscription" price for adjustments, but I'm still doing that for free.  Figure it'll be many more years before I have to start charging for adjustments, if ever.  Before I do, you can't count on many takers there.

Your ambition to compete for the low ticket eyeglass shopper with a retail space puts you in competition with the corporate optical chains like those optical24/7 mentioned more than the online guys.  That'd take a lot of volume to float.  "Immediately profitable" would be awfully ambitious.  The bigger the population center, the better.

The discrete pricing for every component service makes sense for an internet shopper, but would probably just confuse and irritate those who came in the door.  With those hourly prices for frame stylists, you're clearly setting yourself as a notch above the entry level optical retail 'opticians'/optometric techs (as you should!)  But if you're stuck with a small stock of the cheapests frames and lenses, you're not marketing to nor reaching the customer base that's willing to pay for that kind of service.

It's an intriguing template, but I think it'd be a log into the buzzsaw in the current competitive environment.  At least in the States.  Some catastrophic evolutions in the market would have to occur first for this to work, (at least I think so.)

Perhaps it could work as an adjunct to a large lab operation?  Since you're in an industrial park, maybe you've got a large space for that lab instead of just a small one?  Maybe you even have one of those online storefronts doing your heavy lifting, ; )  The retail floor could be an affordable experiment into the 'low-end botique' you've articulated that plugged into your internet brand after the volume lab got on its legs?

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## idispense

You can't compete with something you don't understand  especially when you are continuing to try to meet that comptetion on your grounds instead of theirs.

1) onliners plan to make their largest  profit from their very last sale, not the little daily sales
2) onliners use your public money from your own pocket and government funds to finance the losses. The losses are absorbed by the share capital/equity financings 
3) onliners are open 24/7 not just half a day
4) onliners are open for business on every computer and cell phone device not just at your  single fixed address 
5) onliners don't pay licensing fees and they are not scared of licensing boards like you would be and they know the licensing boards won't touch them , but the licensing boards will come after your registered license .... your renewal fees work against you not for you

If you want to compete with on liners then you have to realize they are disruptive technology but you are not. You are hampered by your own legalities and you are being hunted. Your thinking does not allow you to be the hunter. 

It's not possible to compete, against something  you don't understand.

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## Johns

> STORE FRONT....What other business is it best to be located next to or close to (besides ODs &OMDs)?


Some of my most profitable stores have been next to low end/low socioeconomic attracting stores such as tobacco and video stores.  Of course, most video stores are gone, but the tobacco stores still flourish. I did not like the business, but they were a destination for people ALL day long.  And endless stream of humanity that would not otherwise know we were there.

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## rbaker

A veritable rogues gallery of schlock houses. 

http://www.americasbest.com/eyeglasses  2pair for 69 bucks

http://www.eyeglassworld.com/promotions/  2 pair for 78 bucks

http://www.jcpenneyoptical.com/offers-discounts/ one pair 29.99

http://www.eyemart.com/coupons/  2 pair for 69 bucks

http://www.stantonoptical.com/

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## optimensch

"*Location: Small industrial unit in an industrial park close to a bus stop, plenty of parking spaces, big sign on street side advertising renters names and business.
Store at front entrance, cut and grind lab and storage in warehouse area. Office space in between. Rent not more than $ 2500.00 plus tax (refundable)"

Right away the population base for this small space in an industrial park near a bus stop are the folks who work at this industrial park. A small space in such a place might be cheap (and rightly so) but it offers no visibility. 

Now if you are willing to spend a fortune on marketing in order to drive city folks to come all the way to you for glasses (and to come back to pick them up when ready) you need to budget for this. Your business plan line item for cheap rent all of a sudden should be followed by a very big marketing spend.

I think that without any weekend traffic and after quitting time at 5 pm (no nights) on weekdays, the sound of the crickets from the grassy knoll near the parking lot might drive you mad.

If you, the owner, are also willing to live in a van down by the river that is near the industrial park to save some money, this might help a bit.

Yes. I am very negative on this concept. I'd love to know how it works out though and would be ready to eat a big plate of crow....if it flies. (the business plan, not the crow).

Oh, and security might be an issue, if you are in a very deserted area at night and you are known to carry high end goods.


*

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## idispense

you would not be competing with on line opticals as this thread  heading suggests,   you would only be competing with other nearby brick and mortars for the limited buying power of workers in the immediate geographical area.

on line opticals compete against all of us everywhere, anywhere, anytime, all the time. 

you can't compete against what you don't understand

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## Chris Ryser

> *In my opinion the only way for you to have some credibility here regarding your advice on how to compete with the on-liners is for you to actually take your own advice and start such a business and report back to us.*



I am not giving nor taking advice ............I have started a discussion here because I see the on-line type businesses growing at a super fast pace. 

What the on-line companies do sell and to whom they sell .....................the B&M optician is not.

Opticians have forever existed on their markups and done well, but that system is being undermined by the big artillery of on-line opticals as their website traffic measurements indicate.
In my opinion, to counter this mounting threat, opticians will have to justify their much larger markup bundle, one way or another, if you like it or not.. 

My proposal is just one example and others or better ones are welcome. Maybe we can keep it civilized and without insults and try to be positive.

Obviously the theme of this thread has attracted 22 posts and 366 views in the first 18 hours since the first post was made. So, such a result indicates that there is a lot of interest on the subject.
At the time of this post there are currently 349 users online. 5 members and 344 guests

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## Chris Ryser

> *on line opticals compete against all of us everywhere, anywhere, anytime, all the time. 
> 
> you can't compete against what you don't understand
> *



Now that you indicate that you do understand...................would you mind to give us some education ?

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## Chris Ryser

> *you would not be competing with on line opticals as this thread  heading suggests,   you would only be competing with other nearby brick and mortars for the limited buying power of workers in the immediate geographical area.
> 
> on line opticals compete against all of us everywhere, anywhere, anytime, all the time. 
> 
> you can't compete against what you don't understand
> *



Interesting comment, but totally wrong.

My imaginary store would sell frames and lenses as stated at around the same price as the on-line opticals. Therefore you could purchase locally at the same price as on-line if you choose to supply the PD and measurement, pay for it and pick it up without any further adjustment and work as they would receive them by UPS or in the mail.

I would actually be competing with the on-liners as the pricing would be the same but the location would be local and not be 4,000 miles away. Most probably it would also compete with other local opticals as the pricing would be up to the choice of the customer, so it could benefit traffic from both sides. 

As most on-line purchased glasses would or will, need adjustments, these customers would have to pay extra for that service.

..........and as for your last comment, I do very well understand, as I have followed the trend closely for the last 7 years and have been keeping track of it.

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## idispense

Define why an on-line optical works.

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## CNG

> Define why an on-line optical works.


Online works because dispensing optcians and optometrist give their services for free!

1. We are so stu..pid that we will measure a PD thinking these people will come back
2. We are so stup..id because we will adjust their online crppy eyewear thinking they will come back.
3. We are so stup..id because we repair their crppy online eyewear thinking they will come back
4. We are so stup..id because we lend our showrooms for onliners to try frames and record by selfies.

A novel idea is to require the online selling of eyeglasses to be licensed and taxed just like every brick and mortar outfit.

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## Chris Ryser

> *A novel idea is to require the online selling of eyeglasses to be licensed and taxed just like every brick and mortar outfit.*



I like that one too.......................

Question is.....................how would you achieve that ?   

Why has it not been done so far ?

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## idispense

How does an on-line optical get business ?

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## Michael I. Davis

I think just advertise that you will service glasses purchased on line at the prices that Chris recommends. If you want to sell product at cost, why bother?  Open a small kiosk with one optician, or maybe a pop up optical; no product just service.

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## m0002a

> A novel idea is to require the online selling of eyeglasses to be licensed and taxed just like every brick and mortar outfit.


I would assume that if an online optical is located within the USA, that it needs to be licensed just like any optical in the state it operates (even when selling to customers out of state). As far as sales tax collected by online opticals, that is a constitutional issue regarding interstate commerce, and the courts, congress, and others are dealing with that just like the multitude of other online purchases.

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## Browman

> Online works because dispensing optcians and optometrist give their services for free!
> 
> 1. We are so stu..pid that we will measure a PD thinking these people will come back
> 2. We are so stup..id because we will adjust their online crppy eyewear thinking they will come back.
> 3. We are so stup..id because we repair their crppy online eyewear thinking they will come back
> 4. We are so stup..id because we lend our showrooms for onliners to try frames and record by selfies.
> 
> A novel idea is to require the online selling of eyeglasses to be licensed and taxed just like every brick and mortar outfit.


Online works because they're cheap. End of sentence, paragraph, page, chapter, and book. For the price of a single adjustment in the OP, someone could buy a dozen pair of glasses themself and home-adjust through trial and error.

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## Chris Ryser

> *How does an on-line optical get business ?*


By advertising their links on line which is relatively inexpensive compared to local or national news papers or magazines.

................... and by having a website that is easy to find when asking the questions to search engines.

By checking their traffic rankings on http//:alexa.com you can instantly see any websites traffic ranking. See my list of optical sites at http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm .

Most information used to come from Coastal who was very liberal handing it out. Now since Essilor has taken over that source has been totally turned off.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I think just advertise that you will service glasses purchased on line at the prices that Chris recommends. If you want to sell product at cost, why bother?  Open a small kiosk with one optician, or maybe a pop up optical; no product just service.*



That is another way that might be an inexpensive  way to start up. All you would need is the basic tools and instruments for checking and adjusting.

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## idispense

> By advertising their links on line which is relatively inexpensive compared to local or national news papers or magazines.
> 
> ................... and by having a website that is easy to find when asking the questions to search engines.
> 
> By checking their traffic rankings on http//:alexa.com you can instantly see any websites traffic ranking. See my list of optical sites at http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm .
> 
> Most information used to come from Coastal who was very liberal handing it out. Now since Essilor has taken over that source has been totally turned off.




How do they make their web site easy to find ?

Give us an example using the contact lens side of on-line optical.

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## idispense

> Online works because they're cheap. End of sentence, paragraph, page, chapter, and book. For the price of a single adjustment in the OP, someone could buy a dozen pair of glasses themself and home-adjust through trial and error.



How did they convince the public they are cheap ? What did they tell the public ? Why would a service charge based business just give on-liner more fuel for their selling proposition, and backfire ?

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## idispense

> I would assume that if an online optical is located within the USA, that it needs to be licensed just like any optical in the state it operates (even when selling to customers out of state). As far as sales tax collected by online opticals, that is a constitutional issue regarding interstate commerce, and the courts, congress, and others are dealing with that just like the multitude of other online purchases.


revisit the word "assume"  and break it down into its components .  Then rethink the matter by using "I have verified that ....."

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## idispense

> By advertising their links on line which is relatively inexpensive compared to local or national news papers or magazines.
> 
> ................... and by having a website that is easy to find when asking the questions to search engines.
> 
> By checking their traffic rankings on http//:alexa.com you can instantly see any websites traffic ranking. See my list of optical sites at http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm .
> 
> Most information used to come from Coastal who was very liberal handing it out. Now since Essilor has taken over that source has been totally turned off.




How  do you build a traffic rating ? On-liners started with a zero rating. How did they build their ratings ?

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## idispense

> I think just advertise that you will service glasses purchased on line at the prices that Chris recommends. If you want to sell product at cost, why bother?  Open a small kiosk with one optician, or maybe a pop up optical; no product just service.





> That is another way that might be an inexpensive  way to start up. All you would need is the basic tools and instruments for checking and adjusting.



The heading of the original thread was "how to compete with on-line ..... "   What you are now talking about is "how to submit to on-line opticals and be their servants" 

Which do you want to do: submit or compete ?

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## idispense

> Interesting comment, but totally wrong.
> 
> My imaginary store would sell frames and lenses as stated at around the same price as the on-line opticals. Therefore you could purchase locally at the same price as on-line if you choose to supply the PD and measurement, pay for it and pick it up without any further adjustment and work as they would receive them by UPS or in the mail.
> 
> I would actually be competing with the on-liners as the pricing would be the same but the location would be local and not be 4,000 miles away. Most probably it would also compete with other local opticals as the pricing would be up to the choice of the customer, so it could benefit traffic from both sides. 
> 
> As most on-line purchased glasses would or will, need adjustments, these customers would have to pay extra for that service.
> 
> ..........and as for your last comment, I do very well understand, as I have followed the trend closely for the last 7 years and have been keeping track of it.



How would the prices be the same ? On-liners don't charge for PD, or adjustments but you do. 

What  have on-liners told the public about adjustments and PD's ?  Did on-liners tell the public most opticians and optometrists will do these for free ? Do opticians and optometrists quite often not charge for these ? Who caused  the laws on PD release to be rewritten ? 

How would you convince the public to pay for something the public has been told to expect for free ?

If you charge for something that on-liners do free then how are you competing ? Or are you falling further into their grasp ?

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## Michael I. Davis

I don't want to do either; this is just a thought game.

Besides on line have to try to compete with me, I don't need compete with them.

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## idispense

> I don't want to do either; this is just a thought game.
> 
> Besides on line have to try to compete with me, I don't need compete with them.



It's not a thought game to a serious on-liner. It's something they have given a lot of thought to and then successfully activated and profited from. 

You are predictably following their rules as they rewrite your rules and define your work day for you. At the moment , you are just busy enough to not see that. 

It's somewhat like cancer, it grows inside without symptoms until one day you wonder "how did that tumour grow to that size ? "

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## optimensch

Maybe the thread could be titled "Why compete with online...."

1) are there any cash flow positive, profitable on-lines? what sort of earnings have they got? Clearly was a constant money loser, but at least their numbers were public. right now very few people really know the answer....

2) when you say "pricing like online opticals" this simply is meaningless. There are online opticals selling glasses in the HUNDREDS of dollars and others selling for less than 10$!! there is no more correlation between 2 different onlines than there are between 2 different real optical stores.

3) the internet has NOT proven to be a generally better way for most people to buy glasses or contacts. it is just another way to do so. 

the internet is having an impact on the way real optical stores can buy from suppliers too - in order to reduce costs and streamline. This is a double edged sword and we have used it to our advantage and have passed these savings on to our customers. This is to the detriment of certain suppliers, but thats just how it is.

No need to open up a store on the edge of town or in a basement.

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## idispense

> Maybe the thread could be titled "Why compete with online...."
> 
> 1) are there any cash flow positive, profitable on-lines? what sort of earnings have they got? Clearly was a constant money loser, but at least their numbers were public. right now very few people really know .



How much did Clearly lose in total and who lost ?

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## Chris Ryser

> *How would the prices be the same ? On-liners don't charge for PD, or adjustments but you do. 
> 
> If you charge for something that on-liners do free then how are you competing ? Or are you falling further into their grasp ?
> *



On-line opticals who are on the other side of the continent can not measure a PD  or do any adjustments.
They tell the customer to see an optician for that, who does it for free. 

I stated that I would sell the full Rx, as frames and lenses, at the same rate the on-liners do, but would charge for any services needed and supplied separately.






> *No need to open up a store on the edge of town or in a basement.*



How would you propose to show your frames ? Out of the bag or a suitcase ?

My imaginary store would be easy to find, get there, have easy access to free parking and cost me $ 2,500 a month instead of many times more in a top retail location. 

The Costco stores are not part of any expensive retail area and their parking lot was packed full 2 minutes before opening this Sunday morning.

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## idispense

> On-line opticals who are on the other side of the continent can not measure a PD  or do any adjustments.
> They tell the customer to see an optician for that, who does it for free. 
> 
> I stated that I would sell the full Rx, as frames and lenses, at the same rate the on-liners do, but would charge for any services needed and supplied separately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The imaginary store would be easy to find for someone driving by it who was looking directly at it and not daydreaming or otherwise distracted by traffic, who happened to be going to work in the industrial area in the early morning or going to lunch break or dashing home after work. 

You haven't said how you would get business and advertise it to the world, which is what on-liners do. Remember the title was "how to compete with on-liners". So how are you going to employ their tactics to make this industrial store known to the world rather than known to 3 times a day possible passers by ? Will you use geo-targeted positioning ? Will you use SEO ? Where will you position your outdoor signage ? What name will you use to explain your selling proposition in a nutshell so people passing by "get it " 

Costco ? Really ? Yes that concept could work for you except :
1) does Costco only carry eyeglasses ? 
2) will your store carry a hundred thousand other unrelated inventory items ?
3) does Costco locate in industrial areas or in convenient retail, highly visible areas ?
4) if I could acquire  a Costco sized store location for 2500 I would gladly sublet it and make $ on the leasing 


Last point :
on-liners have successfully convinced the public that measurements and adjustments are free , opticians and optometrists have also done the same,   you haven't addressed the issue of how you are going to convince the public otherwise. 

How will you do that ?

----------


## idispense

Start with the name of your optical that explains the concept all in one word preferably or at the most in 3 words.

Then tell us about the outdoor signage. Is the signage mounted on a pole or the building wall. Does the signage mount flush or angle away from the building? 

What are the specific techniques to bring in the business ?

----------


## optimensch

If you want to compete with online optical, you probably ought to do it online. 
Start with other peoples money, a substantial amount, and be sure to have second and third rounds of financing available as well. Maybe 3-5 million to start should get the ball rolling (that is how much Rivet and Sway, of blessed memory, had at kickoff).
Before you have burned all the cash make sure you can find a big player to sell out to. This is known to have been hugely successful. Once.

The business plan mentioned about the edge of town industrial park (isn't that a Springsteen tune?) is more about competing with local opticals rather than with online. In my humblest opinion.

----------


## idispense

While you are thinking about competing with on- liners (competing is your focus)  keep in mind that on-liners totally dissected the typical optician and typical optometrist business model and they countered each with their own selling proposition. Now your job is to do the same in reverse so that  you are competing with them. 

Does a on-liner need to  bear the cost of a physical location sign ? Or did they shed that expense ?

----------


## tx11

Chris...the only way to sell eyewear cheap and provide services that help the customer (compete on price and still perform opticianry) is to have extremely  low overhead and to sell other unrelated products out of the same location

----------


## idispense

Chris:
What was the first technique that CC used to get known fast ?

----------


## Browman

> How did they convince the public they are cheap ? What did they tell the public ?


They didn't need to convince or tell the public anything. A lot of people went to B&M opticals, were charged in the triple digits for a pair of frames and lenses, and then logged on to Zenni, Coastal, etc. and saw they could get something for single-and-triple digits. 

One of the big elephants in the room we want to continue ignoring vis a vis the success of online optical is that we are not losing a large chunk of our wealthy or luxury patients. Despite the margin of those who can afford to buy high but otherwise don't, we aren't seeing churn amongst brand-hags or status chasers or even the vast majority of the upwardly mobile. I'd even venture to state that we're maintaining most of our engineers, who'd be skeptical of low-priced, "novelty" merchandise. What we're losing are the young, the lower-middle class, and the working class; and the reason, quite simply, is cost. These are the groups for whom the economy sucks the most, and a triple-digit pair of glasses quite simply doesn't seem a wise investment to them in the face of gas, rent, and student loans. 

Consider that, ten years ago, there was an internet, with essentially the same presence in daily life as it enjoys now. What presence did online optical enjoy, though? What's changed in the interim is the economy, creating in its wake a new demographic of optical consumers, and these are the individuals that online has arisen to cater towards.

How do you compete with online? Improve the economy, thus raising the level of disposable income available to the young, middle, and working classes. With more disposable income they'll be more inclined to make higher-dollar purchases. Until that happens, a bunch of pissing contests over PDs and jacking up your adjustment fees are only going to alienate the people who might be actual patients one day.

----------


## Browman

> Chris:
> What was the first technique that CC used to get known fast ?


Free glasses. 

Free frames from amongst a wide selection of designer-grade merchandise (no teeny, flimsy, 90s zyls), with free CR39 lenses and a basic AR coating. I think shipping was something like $8.

----------


## Barry Santini

"We" B&M's left that online door open. By always bundling all ou added value and services into the lens/frame/complete price, we left that price opening for delivering materials a la carte. And online ran right into it.

Lesson learned.

B

----------


## idispense

> They didn't need to convince or tell the public anything. A lot of people went to B&M opticals, were charged in the triple digits for a pair of frames and lenses, and then logged on to Zenni, Coastal, etc. and saw they could get something for single-and-triple digits. 
> 
> One of the big elephants in the room we want to continue ignoring vis a vis the success of online optical is that we are not losing a large chunk of our wealthy or luxury patients. Despite the margin of those who can afford to buy high but otherwise don't, we aren't seeing churn amongst brand-hags or status chasers or even the vast majority of the upwardly mobile. I'd even venture to state that we're maintaining most of our engineers, who'd be skeptical of low-priced, "novelty" merchandise. What we're losing are the young, the lower-middle class, and the working class; and the reason, quite simply, is cost. These are the groups for whom the economy sucks the most, and a triple-digit pair of glasses quite simply doesn't seem a wise investment to them in the face of gas, rent, and student loans. 
> 
> Consider that, ten years ago, there was an internet, with essentially the same presence in daily life as it enjoys now. What presence did online optical enjoy, though? What's changed in the interim is the economy, creating in its wake a new demographic of optical consumers, and these are the individuals that online has arisen to cater towards.
> 
> How do you compete with online? Improve the economy, thus raising the level of disposable income available to the young, middle, and working classes. With more disposable income they'll be more inclined to make higher-dollar purchases. Until that happens, a bunch of pissing contests over PDs and jacking up your adjustment fees are only going to alienate the people who might be actual patients one day.





You have valid economic points for sure. What you are saying is that their timing was right.

However, on-liners also did a fantastic selling job by smearing opticians and optometrists. They constantly built an image of opticians and optometrists as being greedy middlemen .

----------


## idispense

Originally Posted by idispense  
Chris:
What was the first technique that CC used to get known fast ?








> Free glasses. 
> 
> Free frames from amongst a wide selection of designer-grade merchandise (no teeny, flimsy, 90s zyls), with free CR39 lenses and a basic AR coating. I think shipping was something like $8.



No that was not the first technique they used, that came years later as they didn't enter the eyeglass market until  fairly recent years, perhaps 2010. The company was started about 2000. 

No discussion of how to compete with on-liners can be meaningful without understanding this first item.

Who knows the first technique ?

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Chris:
> What was the first technique that CC used to get known fast ?
> *



They supplied tons of presriptions at no charge.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *What we're losing are the young, the lower-middle class, and the working class; and the reason, quite simply, is cost.* *These are the groups for whom the economy sucks the most, and a triple-digit pair of glasses quite simply doesn't seem a wise investment to them in the face of gas, rent, and student loans. 
> 
>  What's changed in the interim is the economy, creating in its wake a new demographic of optical consumers, and these are the individuals that online has arisen to cater towards.
> *


The economy is playing into the hands of the cheap way of selling and the do it yourself way for as little as possible. 

Those younger ones will also get older and the systems becomes status quo if you don't give in somewhat.

You have now an Essilor that just might for their way of total domination, open up so called optical service stations in local areas to service the jobs they sell on line with a charge or not but I predict that would be the next important step in the way they are acting to dominate.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Chris...the only way to sell eyewear cheap and provide services that help the customer (compete on price and still perform opticianry) is to have extremely  low overhead and to sell other unrelated products out of the same location
> *



tx11 .......................then go back to my proposal for the imaginary store which has been criticized for its location and rental cost. 

It sells to, or at similar prices the frame and lenses to the public. But it gives or supplies professional services at certain charges at your choice.

As a customer you have the choice to purchase the same way as from the on-line opticals or go all the way including all services and end up having everything laid out on the table and end up paying what you might paying now at a conventional B&M business.

It is all up to your own choice and you can change the tune any way you want. No on-line optical can offer that, because they are a million miles away and not in control.

----------


## Barry Santini

Remember - when buying a car, does anyone really needs:

1. A warranty
2. A convenient, nearby dealer
3. A maintenance plan
4. A wheel and tire hazard warranty
5. A key warranty
6. An interior protection plan.
7. Etc.

Or do they?

Think about it.

B

----------


## tx11

> tx11 .......................then go back to my proposal for the imaginary store which has been criticized for its location and rental cost. 
> 
> It sells to, or at similar prices the frame and lenses to the public. But it gives or supplies professional services at certain charges at your choice.
> 
> As a customer you have the choice to purchase the same way as from the on-line opticals or go all the way including all services and end up having everything laid out on the table and end up paying what you might paying now at a conventional B&M business.
> 
> It is all up to your own choice and you can change the tune any way you want. No on-line optical can offer that, because they are a million miles away and not in control.


I think that customers will opt to buy the inexpensive product and not any of the costly services. AND if you will not sell one without the other...they will just order on line. Now if you lowered the prices of all your services to $20 you might have some takers but how would you stay in business?

----------


## optical24/7

Why would someone go to you and pay your service fees when they could go to any of the B&M's I mentioned earlier and get all those services thrown in with the cheap, internut priced glasses they are already selling there?

----------


## Fezz

This thread is so silly and absurd! LOL!!

How many adjustments, pd measurements, frame selection help, toenail clips, unicycle rental, and mustache waxes does one have to do to cover rent, utilities, business insurance, license fees, supplies, and a decent living wage? Hysterical!

This whole thread has been a bit of comic relief for me!



But.......who am I to question Mr. Ryser? 

He did predict the economic collapse of the entire world years before it happened!

Maybe I am missing something!

----------


## optical24/7

> Remember - when buying a car, does anyone really needs:
> 
> 1. A warranty
> 2. A convenient, nearby dealer
> 3. A maintenance plan
> 4. A wheel and tire hazard warranty
> 5. A key warranty
> 6. An interior protection plan.
> 7. Etc.
> ...


My closest experience with internet shoppers has happened two times, both the same scenario, both the same outcome. Client shopped glasses online and found my price was 85 bucks higher (Pro Design frame). I told this person I would be happy to sell it to them at the same online price, BUT, just like online it would have zero warranty as opposed to my 1 year unconditional warranty. It would also come with no services to it like adjusting it and maintaining it for as long as they own them, which is included in my price.... Client purchased at my full price. The second client was identical, just a differing brand of frame.

 One thing I will not do is carry cr*ppy products and offer sub-par service to even attempt to compete with online. Most people know you get what you pay for. That's not my market nor client base. But if you want to fight for crumbs left behind by internutters, by all means, knock yourself out.

----------


## idispense

> They supplied tons of presriptions at no charge.



No no that's not it either. Even if they did that it meant that their presence had to be known first. 

Chris,imagine you are sitting in your industrial warehouse filled with merchandise and you have paid your 2,500.00 rent but you have no signage. How do people know you are giving away free product ? 

Alexa ratings are after the fact historical data. They won't help you at the moment until your strategy is history. 

How did CC do it ? 

I can tell you but it would be better for everyone to think this out for themselves if you want to have a discussion on How to compete with on-liners.

----------


## edKENdance

> I think that customers will opt to buy the inexpensive product and not any of the costly services. AND if you will not sell one without the other...they will just order on line. Now if you lowered the prices of all your services to $20 you might have some takers but how would you stay in business?



You'd need insane volume to stay in business.  The "internet pricing with services" model has been tried in my city a couple times.  The first one failed miserably.  The 2nd attempt can be seen here http://eyego.ca/ 

It's an ugly concept.  You surround yourself with god awful trashy frames, you attract the worst kind of clientele and you need to attract LOTS of them because you're only making what Barry charges for adjustments on a sale.  The first one failed because they didn't have the volume so they were stuck in the position of trying to up sell higher end lenses and frames to the cheapskates they were desiring to attract in the first place.  Total nightmare.

----------


## idispense

> tx11 .......................then go back to my proposal for the imaginary store which has been criticized for its location and rental cost. 
> 
> It sells to, or at similar prices the frame and lenses to the public. But it gives or supplies professional services at certain charges at your choice.
> 
> As a customer you have the choice to purchase the same way as from the on-line opticals or go all the way including all services and end up having everything laid out on the table and end up paying what you might paying now at a conventional B&M business.
> 
> It is all up to your own choice and you can change the tune any way you want. No on-line optical can offer that, because they are a million miles away and not in control.





There are somethings very important here in your statements, that are not true. 

This is not true: 


"*No on-line optical can offer that, because they are a million miles away and not in control"



*

On-line opticals have proven over and over again that they can do what we do. 

They are as close as everyone's cell phone, tablet, and computer. How far away is your cell phone right now ?

They are in control or you wouldn't be predicting our demise and we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

Lets to get back to meaningful discussion on your topic: How to Compete with on-line Opticals 

So the first question was:

 What was the first technique that CC used to get known fast ?

----------


## idispense

> This thread is so silly and absurd! LOL!!
> 
> How many adjustments, pd measurements, frame selection help, toenail clips, unicycle rental, and mustache waxes does one have to do to cover rent, utilities, business insurance, license fees, supplies, and a decent living wage? Hysterical!
> 
> This whole thread has been a bit of comic relief for me!
> 
> 
> 
> But.......who am I to question Mr. Ryser? 
> ...



Hi Fezz:
What's hysterical about it Fezz ? 

Can you sell your optical for 445 million and then go on to owning your own bank and do it in less than 15 years ?

Can you rewrite the opticianry and optometry laws in British Columbia ? Can you figure out a way to get the insurance companies and the British Columbia government to recommend you to all their clients ? Can you make a laughing stock of licensing boards and associations ? Can you make licensing boards ineffective ? Can you turn a lost court case into a win ? 

You are missing something Fezz and Mr Ryser has brought up an excellent topic: How to Compete With On-line Opticals . 

Lets show some respect to Mr Ryser and continue this discussion in a focused manner because there is one thing that on-liners already know how to do better than us
*
they know how to dissect a problem into its component parts and FOCUS on the solution !


*

----------


## Browman

> However, on-liners also did a fantastic selling job by smearing opticians and optometrists. They constantly built an image of opticians and optometrists as being greedy middlemen .


[Hannibal Lecter voice] No, that was incidental. 

But, seriously, online didn't manufacture the "greedy middlemen" image; it was already there. You can't turn a customer base against a business unless there's already extant animosity to exploit. Online's direct attacks against B&M are a relatively recent phenomenon in the ~8 year history of the war.

----------


## idispense

> You'd need insane volume to stay in business.  The "internet pricing with services" model has been tried in my city a couple times.  The first one failed miserably.  The 2nd attempt can be seen here http://eyego.ca/ 
> 
> It's an ugly concept.  You surround yourself with god awful trashy frames, you attract the worst kind of clientele and you need to attract LOTS of them because you're only making what Barry charges for adjustments on a sale.  The first one failed because they didn't have the volume so they were stuck in the position of trying to up sell higher end lenses and frames to the cheapskates they were desiring to attract in the first place.  Total nightmare.




Excellent observation: "you would need insane volume" and that is one of the points of this discussion " How to compete with On-line opticals" 



so :  How do on-line opticals get insane volumes ? What technique did CC use to get known fast ?

----------


## edKENdance

To the best of my recollection they had access to millions of dollars of investors money to spend freely on massive advertising campaigns and free eyewear promotions. Is this incorrect?

----------


## idispense

> [Hannibal Lecter voice] No, that was incidental. 
> 
> But, seriously, online didn't manufacture the "greedy middlemen" image; it was already there. You can't turn a customer base against a business unless there's already extant animosity to exploit. Online's direct attacks against B&M are a relatively recent phenomenon in the ~8 year history of the war.


true that it was already there. The real lesson is that on-liners dissected current optician and optometry business models and focused their disruption attack on those weaknesses. They would do the same with a service charge approach , it would just add fuel to their fire.

----------


## idispense

> To the best of my recollection they had access to millions of dollars of investors money to spend freely on massive advertising campaigns and free eyewear promotions. Is this incorrect?


Now you are thinking in the correct direction. That's going to bring up another topic in this discussion, how do on-liners find that money and access it ?

----------


## drk

It's called the insane dot.com bubble. Greedy investors like "disruptive technology".  For every Apple or Amazon there are about a billion failures.

----------


## Fezz

> You are missing something Fezz and Mr Ryser has _brought up an excellent topic_: How to Compete With On-line Opticals .


I could not disagree more!

I am sure that he is enjoying the Alexa ratings and website traffic!

Have fun worrying about the sky falling!

----------


## idispense

> It's called the insane dot.com bubble. Greedy investors like "disruptive technology".  For every Apple or Amazon there are about a billion failures.



That doesn't explain the logical way they achieved the market penetration and sales  volume. It doesn't matter who lost money or failed, it's important to know how it was achieved. Would you care to focus on specifics of achieving the volume and offer how they did it ?

----------


## Golfnorth

> That doesn't explain the logical way they achieved the market penetration and sales  volume. It doesn't matter who lost money or failed, it's important to know how it was achieved. Would you care to focus on specifics of achieving the volume and offer how they did it ?


Please educate us oh wise one!

----------


## idispense

> I could not disagree more!
> 
> I am sure that he is enjoying the Alexa ratings and website traffic!
> 
> Have fun worrying about the sky falling!


You are right Fezz, as usual.

----------


## idispense

For anyone that has an interest in the marketing techniques:

if you wanted to buy contacts it's most likely that you might Google the words "contact lens" 

Try  it yourself. What's the first ad or result on the top of your page ?  How did it get to the top of the page ?

----------


## edKENdance

Google Adwords?

----------


## Den

> How did it get to the top of the page ?


magic SEO?))

----------


## Hayde

Interesting article on the subject of 'debundling': http://www.the-american-interest.com...-ivory-towers/

It would be easy to plug in 'eyeglasses' in here for horse-and-buggies, phone service, hospitals, or higher ed.  It's not an unreasonable line of inquiry.

How one tackles the question of 'how to compete with online' falls squarely on one question: what's the 'true' value of an optician?  If one thinks opticians ARE redundant middle men, then there's no defense against the glorious online future.

If one thinks otherwise--that good glasses cannot be _reliably_ made _without_ well-trained opticians squaring the circles (before &/or after frame selection,) then the market will find a stable orbit around that truth to whatever degree it is true.

I like this thread; the thought experiment is healthy.  But I do also think the 'online' subject has a general presence on the boards greater than it deserves...a constant drumbeat of anxiety that might make a reader think we're having a crisis of doubt of our own value to the eyecare!

No doubt our future professional lives will have a lot more 'internet' in it.  What shape that takes we're a _long_ way from gauging.  There's quite a few more shoes to drop onto the whole "online optical" market that ought to curb its enthusiasm.  I see rapid growth statistics,  I think most of them are 'flash in the pan.'  Will the competitive pressure go away?  Nope.  Nor should it.  But can Warby Parker convince the world entire brick and morter opticians are redundant middle men?  Only if it were true.  But since I see a fair bit of their after-frame sale lens fulfilment....  Of all the thing to keep me up at night, WP ain't it.

----------


## idispense

> Google Adwords?


You are on the right track but it was more direct. 

They purchased the exclusive rights to the keywords "contact lens" by buying them from Alta Vista. I stand to be corrected but I think this may have been before any one realized the words had value. 

Now any time someone types in " contact lens" or variants the CC ad banner comes up right at the top. 

No magic just excellent well thought out logical marketing.

----------


## Joe Zewe

Those of you worried about online are focused on the wrong threat.   If you read the Vision Council studies, independents are growing faster than chains.  Onlines are still a very small % of the market.  The absolute growth for independents is greater than the growth in onlines.  Lasik is the only eyewear segment that is contracting.  Worry about your local competition and focus on doing a better job servicing your customers.  Go after more private pay and when successful drop your worst manage care plans.  Focus on buying eyewear products that maximize profits/volumes and please your customers.  Online should be a concern with respect to a long term strategy, but do not overreact at this time.

----------


## Joe Zewe

Regarding how online businesses get to the top of a web search, you should read up on SEO (search engine optimization) and Google AdWords.  

On a google search, the first three page links listed at the top of the search page are paid ads.  Also, the pages listed on the side margins of the page are paid ads.  You click on this link and the advertiser who bought the ad is charged a click fee.  These are purchased through google adwords based upon the value of the keyword search.  If you type in "online eyewear" in your Google search and you click on ad,, the advertiser will pay something like $1.50 for the click.  The amount the advertiser pays is determined by the demand for the search term.  Google has very sophisticated analytic software that controls the setting of these prices. Google has a dashboard that advertisers use to bid on keywords that allow the advertiser to establish budgets, focus on geographic regions, etc.  

After the three paid searches on a Google search page, the most popular pages are listed and getting on the first page of a search is the holy grail of SEO.  If you can get listed on page one just below the paid searches, you get what are essentially free clicks.  Google determines the order websites are listed based upon proprietary algorithms that take into account the pages popularity and visits, the content on the site, frequency content is revised, mentions of the site on other pages, link backs to your site and many many other factors.  The software is sophisticated to prevent websites from gaming the system.  SEO involves techniques that will allow our website to get listed near the top.  SEO techniques include driving traffic to your site, refreshing information, getting mentioned in the media, getting linkbacks from other popular sites, and many other time consuming and expensive undertakings.  When Warby Parker is featured in the New York Times or GQ Magazine, that is search engine gold.  Popular bloggers linking to your site is another good thing.  

If you are not on the first few pages of google or if you do not buy adwords, your site will not be found by people who use generic keyword searches to find products.  Adwords are a very expensive undertaking.  For most opticals, getting on the first page is next to impossible.  You will never get the traffic, PR, link backs etc. to compete with the established sites that spend big money on a web strategy.  However, you should still have a website that people will find should they do a local search or search specifically on your shop's name.  

SEO is a complicated subject that people write books on.  SEO is not a core competency for most opticals.  Unless you are prepared to raise hundreds of thousands of $$, do not plan on getting into the online eyewear business.

----------


## Fezz

Thank you for a very informative, concise, educational, and reasonable post!

I really appreciate the education!

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Lets show some respect to Mr Ryser and continue this discussion in a focused manner because there is one thing that on-liners already know how to do better than us
> 
> they know how to dissect a problem into its component parts and FOCUS on the solution !
> 
> 
> *



Thanks idispense, I have respected your logical approach and dissecting them for a long time, and  appreciate that you jumped into this discussion.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *I could not disagree more!
> 
> I am sure that he is enjoying the Alexa ratings and website traffic!
> 
> Have fun worrying about the sky falling! 
> *



As a moderator on the OptiBoard your comments are no moderation whatsoever, but rather a bad 
try to derail an interesting thread.

----------


## idispense

> Interesting article on the subject of 'debundling': http://www.the-american-interest.com...-ivory-towers/
> 
> It would be easy to plug in 'eyeglasses' in here for horse-and-buggies, phone service, hospitals, or higher ed.  It's not an unreasonable line of inquiry.
> 
> How one tackles the question of 'how to compete with online' falls squarely on one question: what's the 'true' value of an optician?  If one thinks opticians ARE redundant middle men, then there's no defense against the glorious online future.
> 
> If one thinks otherwise--that good glasses cannot be _reliably_ made _without_ well-trained opticians squaring the circles (before &/or after frame selection,) then the market will find a stable orbit around that truth to whatever degree it is true.
> 
> I like this thread; the thought experiment is healthy.  But I do also think the 'online' subject has a general presence on the boards greater than it deserves 
> ...




Thank  you for contributing this article on de bundling HAYDE, I read it and it's excellent. Thank you, and I look forward to more comment. 

One thing, I would expand on is this:

Who would have thought it possible that a disruptive technology could remove wired telephones from the walls in our homes and relocate those boring wired phones into our pockets ? Who would have thought pay telephones on street corners would disappear? Who would have thought that the encyclopedia business would disappear because of a computer and cell phone ? 

In light of the above, can you really justify this statement ? 

"But I do also think the 'online' subject has a general presence on the boards greater than it deserves "

----------


## HindSight2020

> To the best of my recollection they had access to millions of dollars of investors money to spend freely on massive advertising campaigns and free eyewear promotions. Is this incorrect?


Correct, they had boat loads of investors money.  CC's goal from the beginning was to capture as much market share as they could at any cost; giving away free glasses and undercutting retailers with crappy lenses and frames is the only way and it worked.

Their business plan was never to make profit, it was to capture market share in vast volumes, get noticed and get acquired.  That's when the payout for shareholders would occur and it did.  I posted that Essilor would purchase Coastal about two years before it happened; that was an easy one to project.

To any independent out there, don't compete with onliners, carve your own path and distinguish yourself with quality, service and value.  Don't follow, always lead.

Take any advice from idispense with a grain of salt; he blames on-liners, governing bodies and legislation for everything.  One has to look in the mirror from time to time and wonder.

----------


## idispense

Fezz: 

Have you read Hayde's contribution on de bundling ? 

Have you considered that none of this conversation has anything to do with the sky falling in but rather it has to do with normal economic evolution ? 

This is a discussion on modern day competing and the techniques being used which many of us are unfamiliar with. 

Shouldn't we learn these techniques, especially if they are attracting customers? 

Fezz, do you remember the old way of cataract surgery, and the resulting Welsh Four drop lenses ? Would you like to ignore the technology that changed that ? 

Let's focus , not on the merits of selling on-line, whether  it should happen or not , let's focus on the tools used to be successful to do it so we can benefit and redeploy those tools.

----------


## idispense

> Correct, they had boat loads of investors money.  CC's goal from the beginning was to capture as much market share as they could at any cost; giving away free glasses and undercutting retailers with crappy lenses and frames is the only way and it worked.
> 
> Their business plan was never to make profit, it was to capture market share in vast volumes, get noticed and get acquired.  That's when the payout for shareholders would occur and it did.  I posted that Essilor would purchase Coastal about two years before it happened; that was an easy one to project.
> 
> To any independent out there, don't compete with onliners, carve your own path and distinguish yourself with quality, service and value.  Don't follow, always lead.
> 
> Take any advice from idispense with a grain of salt; he blames on-liners, governing bodies and legislation for everything.  One has to look in the mirror from time to time and wonder.



Almost an excellent post Hindsight. 

Is this statement not self contradicting : "Their business plan was never to make profit, it was to capture market share in vast volumes, get noticed and get acquired. That's when the payout for shareholders would occur and it did." ?

Could you elaborate on the financing and the ways to acquire the necessary start up capital ? This is also a technique required to compete that we need to understand to compete. 

Thank you

----------


## idispense

> Regarding how online businesses get to the top of a web search, you should read up on SEO (search engine optimization) and Google AdWords.  
> 
> On a google search, the first three page links listed at the top of the search page are paid ads.  Also, the pages listed on the side margins of the page are paid ads.  You click on this link and the advertiser who bought the ad is charged a click fee.  These are purchased through google adwords based upon the value of the keyword search.  If you type in "online eyewear" in your Google search and you click on ad,, the advertiser will pay something like $1.50 for the click.  The amount the advertiser pays is determined by the demand for the search term.  Google has very sophisticated analytic software that controls the setting of these prices. Google has a dashboard that advertisers use to bid on keywords that allow the advertiser to establish budgets, focus on geographic regions, etc.  
> 
> After the three paid searches on a Google search page, the most popular pages are listed and getting on the first page of a search is the holy grail of SEO.  If you can get listed on page one just below the paid searches, you get what are essentially free clicks.  Google determines the order websites are listed based upon proprietary algorithms that take into account the pages popularity and visits, the content on the site, frequency content is revised, mentions of the site on other pages, link backs to your site and many many other factors.  The software is sophisticated to prevent websites from gaming the system.  SEO involves techniques that will allow our website to get listed near the top.  SEO techniques include driving traffic to your site, refreshing information, getting mentioned in the media, getting linkbacks from other popular sites, and many other time consuming and expensive undertakings.  When Warby Parker is featured in the New York Times or GQ Magazine, that is search engine gold.  Popular bloggers linking to your site is another good thing.  
> 
> If you are not on the first few pages of google or if you do not buy adwords, your site will not be found by people who use generic keyword searches to find products.  Adwords are a very expensive undertaking.  For most opticals, getting on the first page is next to impossible.  You will never get the traffic, PR, link backs etc. to compete with the established sites that spend big money on a web strategy.  However, you should still have a website that people will find should they do a local search or search specifically on your shop's name.  
> 
> SEO is a complicated subject that people write books on.  SEO is not a core competency for most opticals.  Unless you are prepared to raise hundreds of thousands of $$, do not plan on getting into the online eyewear business.



Thank you for your informative post Joe. 

I would only mention, we are discussing the techniques used by on-liners to acquire customers, so that we may  understand these tools from the perspective of how we might learn to compete better. We are not discussing the merits of entering the online eyewear business. 

Can you explain then how a B & M can utilize these same SEO techniques ? 

Thank you

----------


## Johns

> Fezz: 
> 
> Have you read Hayde's contribution on de bundling ? 
> 
> Have you considered that none of this conversation has anything to do with the sky falling in but rather it has to do with normal economic evolution ? 
> 
> This is a discussion on modern day competing and the techniques being used which many of us are unfamiliar with. 
> 
> Shouldn't we learn these techniques, especially if they are attracting customers? 
> ...


I think  Fezz's point is that many of us are in private practice environments, working hard (and succeeding) at serving the needs of our customers, making healthy profits, and continuing to build these practices into strong, viable, profitable businesses.  There are opticians, ODs, MDs, and managers, that have never given a second thought to Lens Crafters (One-Hour Service will KILL) us, Wal-Mart Optical (Their prices will KILL us), Y-2K, VSP, Eyemed, America's Best, Online "opticals", digital printing, etc... 

Yes, these are all issues that have, and will affect our businesses, but they don't necessarily have to affect the way we do business, so long as we concentrate on what WE do best, and not what others are doing to us.  




> Those of you worried about online are focused on the wrong threat.   If  you read the Vision Council studies, independents are growing faster  than chains.  Onlines are still a very small % of the market.


Many of these practices are growing without ever knowing/caring about bundling/unbundling, capture rates, competing with onliners, mass merchandisers, and such.  Yes, these are important issues to many, but they can also detract from the focus of running our OWN practices. Often, if you keep looking to the sky, you stumble in the potholes.

Joe, like many of us, is in the thick of the industry, and unlike many of us, has a unique perspective of it, as he comes from the wholesale side.  I agree that his post laid out a clear, concise, explanation on how the online preferences are made.  

Good discussions all around.

----------


## idispense

> magic SEO?))



Yes Den, you are right ! It is a form of SEO , Search Engine Optimization. Sounds like you may have been reading up on it. What are your thoughts on how opticians can utilize this technique ? 

It's not magic though, it's just a learning process to understand how to do it.

----------


## idispense

> I think  Fezz's point is that many of us are in private practice environments, working hard (and succeeding) at serving the needs of our customers, making healthy profits, and continuing to build these practices into strong, viable, profitable businesses.  There are opticians, ODs, MDs, and managers, that have never given a second thought to Lens Crafters (One-Hour Service will KILL) us, Wal-Mart Optical (Their prices will KILL us), Y-2K, VSP, Eyemed, America's Best, Online "opticals", digital printing, etc... 
> 
> Yes, these are all issues that have, and will affect our businesses, but they don't necessarily have to affect the way we do business, so long as we concentrate on what WE do best, and not what others are doing to us.  
> 
> 
> 
> Many of these practices are growing without ever knowing/caring about bundling/unbundling, capture rates, competing with onliners, mass merchandisers, and such.  Yes, these are important issues to many, but they can also detract from the focus of running our OWN practices. Often, if you keep looking to the sky, you stumble in the potholes.
> 
> Joe, like many of us, is in the thick of the industry, and unlike many of us, has a unique perspective of it, as he comes from the wholesale side.  I agree that his post laid out a clear, concise, explanation on how the online preferences are made.  
> ...



Good points Johns, to which I can only add this, should we not have learned how to use a patternless edger or electronic point of sale software ? Were these tools looking to the sky or pot holes or did they help build your practices?

A patternless edger is nothing more than the combination and application of limit switches, stepper motors, shaft encoders and a CPU ..... Should we have squashed that technology and discussion of how to marry each piece to the other ?

----------


## idispense

> You'd need insane volume to stay in business.  The "internet pricing with services" model has been tried in my city a couple times.  The first one failed miserably.  The 2nd attempt can be seen here http://eyego.ca/ 
> 
> It's an ugly concept.  You surround yourself with god awful trashy frames, you attract the worst kind of clientele and you need to attract LOTS of them because you're only making what Barry charges for adjustments on a sale.  The first one failed because they didn't have the volume so they were stuck in the position of trying to up sell higher end lenses and frames to the cheapskates they were desiring to attract in the first place.  Total nightmare.




ed , you are right about needing insane volumes, however insane volumes are achievable with the right tools and techniques to use . Have you read about Warby-Parker and their initial 20,000 back order/waiting list problem ? 

Please note, I am not discussing profitability, only the tools and techniques that can produce insane volumes.

----------


## Joe Zewe

Regarding competing with online opticals, at the present time there is no practical way for an independent retailer to compete by selling glasses online.  However, as a retailer you should have a website promoting your practice and its capabilities so that prospective customers can research you and see what you have to offer.  You should also use social media (facebook is still probably the best place for a social media presence) to promote your practice. 

Your best way to compete is to understand your strengths and how these strengths can make you money.  Every practice is different.  Some are high price frames/lenses with a high profit per transaction and a low unit volume.  Others are lower price high volume practice.  Most are somewhere in between.  Managed care and patient demographics are two other huge factors.  Understand what you have to offer and develop a winnable strategy and go for it.  Generally speaking, you cannot be all things to all people.  It is very tough to make comparisons between independent practices as no two practices are the same so be wary of copying someone else.  What works for someone else might not work for you.    

It is very possible that at some point there will be a viable platform where retailers can participate in a website where they can sell frames online direct to the public and bring the customer into the store for proper dispensing and under a scenario where the retailer controls and receives the economic benefit from the transaction.  Almost like an ebay or Amazon scenario.  Under this scenario, the retailer can describe and differentiate the services they can provide and hopefully make an adequate profit.  Hopefully, this can be done in a way that does not result in the next race to the bottom or be an effort by a major player to further control the industry.

----------


## Den

> Sounds like you may have been reading up on it. What are your thoughts on how opticians can utilize this technique ? 
> It's not magic though.


Yeah, I already know that's it's not magic.:) 
It was a little bit suprising for me, that it's kind'a new thing for US opticians.))
When I started to make my web-site, I read a lot of info about how to manage your site, including SEO, too.
Now I can't say that I can use SEO opportunities as good, as skilled SEO developer could do, but when I search web I can clearly see their work.
Just like Neo un Matrix... :Cool: 
Truly saying, it's kind'a hard job to work an optician and studying seo at the same time. Though my site was started along time ago, work on it is going very slowly- because of my primary job- optician... :Unsure: 
Think it's not a fantastic result, but for request "repair glasses Kharkiv"- my site is almost on top. This result was reached only with help of SEO.
I wrote texts for this page by myself.

http://vizhuvsyo.com/services/766752

From top 5 of this request in Google- two links are directing to my web-site... That's where you see "Вижу Всё".;)


However, if you want to promote pages that offer to buy contact lenses or frames- I know it will cost a lot of money, because of the high rivalry for this key words... And you can't reach any good results for high-frequency requests only with help of SEO. 
That's how I see it from my side.

----------


## mdeimler

So, is it a bad idea to have  a two-tiered approach to selling eyewear, like your "normal eyewear sales" and "internet type sales" ?
Like have a section of inexpensive, i.e. Parade type frames, and inexpensive lenses available along side of your "regular" selections?

----------


## Hayde

> Thank you for contributing this article on de bundling HAYDE, I read it and it's excellent. Thank you, and I look forward to more comment. 
> 
> One thing, I would expand on is this:
> 
> Who would have thought it possible that a disruptive technology could remove wired telephones from the walls in our homes and relocate those boring wired phones into our pockets ? Who would have thought pay telephones on street corners would disappear? Who would have thought that the encyclopedia business would disappear because of a computer and cell phone ? 
> 
> In light of the above, can you really justify this statement ? 
> 
> "But I do also think the 'online' subject has a general presence on the boards greater than it deserves "


This is by far the best articulation I could steal to answer your question.




> Those of you worried about online are focused on the wrong threat. If you read the Vision Council studies, independents are growing faster than chains. Onlines are still a very small % of the market. The absolute growth for independents is greater than the growth in onlines. Lasik is the only eyewear segment that is contracting. Worry about your local competition and focus on doing a better job servicing your customers. Go after more private pay and when successful drop your worst manage care plans. Focus on buying eyewear products that maximize profits/volumes and please your customers. Online should be a concern with respect to a long term strategy, but do not overreact at this time.


Borrowing a metaphor, I think we stress far too much about where the ball is rather than where it will be. Too soon to know where it'll be. My guess is it'll end up being a virtual red carpet to our front doors so people can try on frames. That's because I believe our model has something the other industries in that article didn't have: Our job performance isn't nearly so easily axiomized. Until 3D modeling is so advanced and ubiquitous that shoppers can upload their heads and postures into virtual frame shops *and* get reliable, good results of predicting aesthetics, comfort, fit, and performance---enough people will want competent, in-person help picking frames with their Rx in mind. The online phenomenon will merge with the corporate chain optical model first. After that, we might start seeing how parts of the IT outreach can help evolve the higher altitude of the market.

----------


## idispense

> Those of you worried about online are focused on the wrong threat.   If you read the Vision Council studies, independents are growing faster than chains.  Onlines are still a very small % of the market.  The absolute growth for independents is greater than the growth in onlines.  Lasik is the only eyewear segment that is contracting.  Worry about your local competition and focus on doing a better job servicing your customers.  Go after more private pay and when successful drop your worst manage care plans.  Focus on buying eyewear products that maximize profits/volumes and please your customers.  Online should be a concern with respect to a long term strategy, but do not overreact at this time.




Thank You Joe:

Could you provide a link to that study or reprint it here ? I looked on the Vision Council site but didn't see it.

----------


## idispense

> Yeah, I already know that's it's not magic.:) 
> It was a little bit suprising for me, that it's kind'a new thing for US opticians.))
> When I started to make my web-site, I read a lot of info about how to manage your site, including SEO, too.
> Now I can't say that I can use SEO opportunities as good, as skilled SEO developer could do, but when I search web I can clearly see their work.
> Just like Neo un Matrix...
> Truly saying, it's kind'a hard job to work an optician and studying seo at the same time. Though my site was started along time ago, work on it is going very slowly- because of my primary job- optician...
> Think it's not a fantastic result, but for request "repair glasses Kharkiv"- my site is almost on top. This result was reached only with help of SEO.
> I wrote texts for this page by myself.
> 
> ...



As you might have noticed from discussions here, it's a new thing for opticians in North America but yet it's an old tool that's been used for many years in the competitive  optical business to achieve high volumes. 

Perhaps the reason it's new to opticians here is the constant pressure to quash any discussion of these tools and techniques and turn the conversations away from learning. 

It would seem that staying  focused on the tools and techniques is pooh poohed here. 

In 5 pages of discussion, so far, we have only made it to the topic of SEO but very little about how to employ it and what results can be expected. Many are interested in the subject matter of: " how to compete"

I welcome your thoughts and knowledge and thank you for your participation.

----------


## Den

> pooh poohed


Does that mean "disjudged"?



> In 5 pages of discussion, so far, we have only made it to the topic of SEO


SEO is only one of many instruments to bring your business to success.
First you need to make your own, not like any other, strategy, I think.
And that is the most trouble for most of us, IMHO.



> I welcome your thoughts and knowledge and thank you for your participation.


Thank you. This thread is very intersting to me, too. As I see, though we have many common in our problems with on-liners, some moments are very specific and depend on country too much...

----------


## idispense

> Does that mean "disjudged"?
> 
> SEO is only one of many instruments to bring your business to success.
> First you need to make your own, not like any other, strategy, I think.
> And that is the most trouble for most of us, IMHO.
> 
> Thank you. This thread is very intersting to me, too. As I see, though we have many common in our problems with on-liners, some moments are very specific and depend on country too much...



Yes  dis judged would work but  " discouraged" is the correct term.

----------


## Johns

> Good points Johns, to which I can only add this, should we not have learned how to use a patternless edger or electronic point of sale software ? Were these tools looking to the sky or pot holes or did they help build your practices?
> 
> A patternless edger is nothing more than the combination and application of limit switches, stepper motors, shaft encoders and a CPU ..... Should we have squashed that technology and discussion of how to marry each piece to the other ?


Most of us embrace technology.  I embrace it as it becomes useful to me, not necessarily  because others are using it.  Admittedly, and without shame, I was a late comer to the promotion of AR.  I was, because the technology to properly adhere to the lens, as well as many other issues, were not overcome before they started the hype machine.  Once I was convinced it was a good product, I began using it in full force.  Same for patternless edges...only when it made sense for MY practice did I buy them.

The point is though, these products weren't developed out of fear, much like the "fighting online" mantra conjures, but rather a desire to progress.  I don't look for the sky to fall, nor for potholes to trip me; I focus straight ahead, on what's best for my practice.  So far, so good...

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *In 5 pages of discussion, so far, we have only made it to the topic of SEO but very little about how to employ it and what results can be expected. Many are interested in the subject matter of: " how to compete"*



SEO means search engine optimization.  There is plenty you can read about and learn.

You can do it yourself or hire some of the thousands that will charge you for it.

The principle is to submit your own website to the thousands of web search engines for indexing and feeding the results to the big ones as Google and others.
This process has to be done periodically, every 3 month and does take some time to do. You can do it yourself or have one of SOE people do it, however this can become very costly.

I have been watching website traffic for years and have seen sites come up from the bottom to fairly close of the top, stay there for a period of time and then lide back to where they were before.
Today I know that happens when the paying party gets fed up and cancels SEO service and do not do it themselves.

You do need continuous submitting service to get the wanted traffic to your site either by a paid service or investing your own time doing it.

----------


## HindSight2020

> Almost an excellent post Hindsight. 
> 
> Is this statement not self contradicting : "Their business plan was never to make profit, it was to capture market share in vast volumes, get noticed and get acquired. That's when the payout for shareholders would occur and it did." ?
> 
> Could you elaborate on the financing and the ways to acquire the necessary start up capital ? This is also a technique required to compete that we need to understand to compete. 
> 
> Thank you


What it means is there was probably never a plan to ever be profitable and payout dividends to share holders on any type of recurring schedule.  Rather it was let's build it at any and all costs to the point of critical mass (in marketshare & volume) then sell it for a profit and payout at that time.  It worked.

Your second point; the simplest way to acquire start up capital is private equity financing and/or selling private shares.  This is how Clive Beddoe started WestJet which has evolved into the most successful profitable air carrier company in Canada.  Banks wouldn't touch them back then and now they all line up at the WestJet feeding trough.

Sure they're public now, but didn't start that way.  Even better, most of their share are owned by their own employees.  Heck, if one could ever assemble a group of 100 people that would toss in $10K each, you would then have $1M, more than enough to open an independently owned chain of 20 optical stores across the country. It can be done successfully done at $50K for each location and the supply chain is already in place.

Then build it all costs for 5 years and sell to Lux. :Eek:

----------


## idispense

> What it means is there was probably never a plan to ever be profitable and payout dividends to share holders on any type of recurring schedule.  Rather it was let's build it at any and all costs to the point of critical mass (in marketshare & volume) then sell it for a profit and payout at that time.  It worked.
> 
> Your second point; the simplest way to acquire start up capital is private equity financing and/or selling private shares.  This is how Clive Beddoe started WestJet which has evolved into the most successful profitable air carrier company in Canada.  Banks wouldn't touch them back then and now they all line up at the WestJet feeding trough.
> 
> Sure they're public now, but didn't start that way.  Even better, most of their share are owned by their own employees.  Heck, if one could ever assemble a group of 100 people that would toss in $10K each, you would then have $1M, more than enough to open an independently owned chain of 20 optical stores across the country. It can be done successfully done at $50K for each location and the supply chain is already in place.
> 
> Then build it all costs for 5 years and sell to Lux.




So you are saying they always  did intend to make a profit . The profit came from the last sale. 

Where did they find  the equity financers ?

----------


## Chris Ryser

To come back to the theme of competing with on-line optical s it is not important to know how they make or made  their money.............you need a solution to bring back the 7 million or more buyers from them to your local businesses.
You are the only one that  can solve a problem locally.

You need a solution which can let you sell at an attractive price like they do and still make good profits by selling your services at a charge that makes up for a less expensive sale.

----------


## Joe Zewe

> Thank You Joe:
> 
> Could you provide a link to that study or reprint it here ? I looked on the Vision Council site but didn't see it.


The info is from a very large study which is distributed to Vision Council Members which you need a login to see.  They spend considerable time and money on their studies and they put out huge amounts of data.  

According to this study, frame and lens sales from independents grew approximately 5% which equates to an increase of approximately $500 million in 2013.  This excludes exam fees which also grew.  Someone is doing something right.

----------


## tx11

> The info is from a very large study which is distributed to Vision Council Members which you need a login to see.  They spend considerable time and money on their studies and they put out huge amounts of data.  
> 
> According to this study, frame and lens sales from independents grew approximately 5% which equates to an increase of approximately $500 million in 2013.  This excludes exam fees which also grew.  Someone is doing something right.


Interesting is that just dollars increase or units increase?

----------


## Joe Zewe

> Interesting is that just dollars increase or units increase?


Dollars and the amounts are not inflation adjusted.

----------


## idispense

> SEO means search engine optimization.  There is plenty you can read about and learn.
> 
> You can do it yourself or hire some of the thousands that will charge you for it.
> 
> The principle is to submit your own website to the thousands of web search engines for indexing and feeding the results to the big ones as Google and others.
> This process has to be done periodically, every 3 month and does take some time to do. You can do it yourself or have one of SOE people do it, however this can become very costly.
> 
> I have been watching website traffic for years and have seen sites come up from the bottom to fairly close of the top, stay there for a period of time and then lide back to where they were before.
> Today I know that happens when the paying party gets fed up and cancels SEO service and do not do it themselves.
> ...





the other way is to own the key words exclusively like "contact lens" and build your own exclusive stable of key words and key domain names , essentially reducing the Google Ad Words reliance and expense.

----------


## idispense

Who can explain the process of getting your optical listed on the GPS navigation devices ? Any one care to give it a shot ?

----------


## Joe Zewe

> To come back to the theme of competing with on-line optical s it is not important to know how they make or made  their money.............you need a solution to bring back the 7 million or more buyers from them to your local businesses.
> You are the only one that  can solve a problem locally.
> 
> You need a solution which can let you sell at an attractive price like they do and still make good profits by selling your services at a charge that makes up for a less expensive sale.


I disagree with providing blanket advice such as this.  It is not that simple.  There are many other factors that need to be considered before declaring someone needs a solution to combat online. For some, online is a threat, for others it is an opportunity, and for still others it is irrelevant.    

If you believe you are losing business to online, you need to react.  There are many things you can do but again, it depends on your circumstances.  Savvy people can figure it out.  Others use consultants.  As someone who spent many years as a consultant, just be wary of any consultant that does not do a whole lot of listening before they give you a solution.  

Let me give you a very simple example.  You may be losing business to online because you are at the same price point as an online site that is popular with your customers.  Maybe you should offer a better product that you cannot get online and promote this as a premium product?  Or maybe you should buy cheaper lenses and frames and offer packages that can compete with online and attempt to improve your overall margin through an increase in volume?  Two opposite approaches but both could be effective if your circumstance allow you to pull it off.  But please do not follow this advice as you need to consider many other factors.  Like I said, it is not that simple.

----------


## rbaker

> Who can explain the process of getting your optical listed on the GPS navigation devices ? Any one care to give it a shot ?


Google "list your business on gps" and you will come up with more information than you can ever use such as: 

http://www.ehow.com/how_5813330_list-business-gps.html

----------


## Johns

Actually, this thread should have been titled: "How to Compete".  

Does it matter who the competition is, if you bring your "A" game?

----------


## tx11

I honestly do not think that a B&M OPTICIAN can compete with online. 
We simply cannot sell cheap enough and still earn a decent living and pay rent on a decent location. 
We can however be affordable and offer expertise that customers cannot get on line. 
DRs let your opticians charge for verifying Rxs on glasses purchased on line. Keep a record of products purchased from you and charge to adjust frames not purchased from you. 
These are obviously needed services that take time, require skill, know how and a lensometer. Prices do not have to be high maybe $10 per service. Some pts may begin to see value in getting their eyewear from you even if you are $100 more expensive than on line. Its costing $300 more that keeps them from purchasing from B&M. Just sayin' :Biggrin:

----------


## CCGREEN

A trait that a B&M optician must have that I do not hear anyone speaking of is PERSONALITY.
Without a pleasant personable personality regardless of your knowledge and skill there will be those out there that will have nothing to do with you. Lets face it sometimes we have people come to us that it just seems they are looking to get out of the house and just be entertained somehow. Admit it. how many times have you put a pair of pliers on a pair of glasses and wiggle your wrist pretending to do something while being sociable talking about the weather, toss them in the ultrasonic for a few moments to warm them up, spray and wipe them and TA DA! You have worked miracles and been entertaining to the patient.

----------


## CCGREEN

By the way. How many out there take advantage letting the patient know of financing the glasses by Care Credit?

----------


## Den

> Who can explain the process of getting your optical listed on the GPS navigation devices ? Any one care to give it a shot ?


If I understand your question right:
1) Register in Google+.
2) In Google+ menu of your page choose "+Page" (May be another name in your language)- create +Page for your business (optic shop, online shop, etc.)
3) Write all needed for customer info for your optic's in appropriate fields.
4) Bingo! Your adress is on the Google Map!

----------


## idispense

So far we know that we can increase our website exposure to reach more customers by using Search Engine Optimization techniques just like on- liners use. 

One of these methods is to use our own stable of owned key words and domains and another is to use versions of Google Ad Words or similar product from other mediums. 

We also know where to research listings to put us on the Google maps and to do the same research to put out icon onto a GPS device.

We know our supplier/competitors put out extensive data on the industry but we can't access it without being a member. 

Have I missed anything in this summary ?

----------


## idispense

So far we also have a lot of opinion expressed as to whether or not it is possible to compete with on-liners or whether we should even try. 

Also there is a sentiment expressed against Chris's service charge based model questioning the amount of the service charge as well as the location in an industrial area.

There is also a faction suggesting opticians should not concern themselves with marketing technique and another faction suggesting it would not be easy in any event and yet another suggesting we ignore on-liners entirely as the sky is not falling in and these discussions are silly. 

Is this a fair summation of opinion ? 

Can anyone suggest a good reason why we should continue to explore the methods to compete and continue to examine the tools and techniques ?

----------


## Michael I. Davis

>Can anyone suggest a good reason why we should continue to explore the methods to compete and continue to examine the tools and techniques ?<

If you don't evolve you die.

And; Change is where the fun is!!

----------


## optimensch

> Can anyone suggest a good reason why we should continue to explore the methods to compete and continue to examine the tools and techniques ?


Healthy discussion, debate and food for thought. 

Like it or not online is a big issue in optical, and will continue to be for a long long time. If we don't discuss it here, where would we? I disagree with Chris' premise but do like to read his thoughts and those of others on the board.

Viva Optiboard !

----------


## INDIE DesEYEnS

Online business is here to stay, there is no way around it. Don't get discouraged, there are now options becoming much more easy to manage as well as less expensive.

There are solutions that will work, we just have to beat them at their own game. A new company powered by google has some great solutions at all price points and will even manage for you, check it out how to drive these types of buyers to you without lifting a finger... I just found out about this company at the small show in Indian Wells this spring... its def worth looking into, I'm sure they will also be at Vision expo in Vegas, it would be a crime if they didn't.... I wish they would give me a finders fee because once you check this out you might just want to give it a shoot. here is the link http://optometry.imatrix.com/

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## Joe Zewe

Three ways you can compete with online:

1)  Provide outstanding service that demonstrates to your customer that your optical knowledge makes a difference.
2)  Offer a better consumer experience through pricing transparency, easy to understand bundled packages and a wide selection of frames and lens products. 
3)  Travel around the country strategically cutting fiber optic lines thereby bringing the internet down and putting the onlines out of business.

I ran these ideas by one of the guys I work with and he said ideas 1 and 2 would be effective for the long term but number 3 would only be a short term fix.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *I ran these ideas by one of the guys I work with and he said ideas 1 and 2 would be effective for the long term but number 3 would only be a short term fix.
> *



...................and they would flood the net again in no time.







Just lets not pretend that this hammering away in every corner of the web does not affect each and everyone from retail to wholesale.

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## Joe Zewe

> ...................and they would flood the net again in no time.
> Just lets not pretend that this hammering away in every corner of the web does not affect each and everyone from retail to wholesale.


Chris- part of my comment was humor.  I do not endorse cutting fiber lines.  Just making this clear.  I don't want federal agents knocking on my door. 

I drive by a chain retailer every day that has a big sign offering 2 pairs for $69 including an eye exam.  This has been there for several years.  Within a mile of this store are at least 2 thriving independents.  There have been low cost alternatives around for many years yet many independents continue to thrive.  

I have many retailer customers (especially high end) that feel no threat from online.  They have loyal clientele who are looking for personalized service.  Having said that, I would be naive not to acknowledge the threat online has to many (but not all) retailers just the threats they face due to managed care, the optical that just opened down the street, etc.

----------


## idispense

> Chris- part of my comment was humor.  I do not endorse cutting fiber lines.  Just making this clear.  I don't want federal agents knocking on my door. 
> 
> I drive by a chain retailer every day that has a big sign offering 2 pairs for $69 including an eye exam.  This has been there for several years.  Within a mile of this store are at least 2 thriving independents.  There have been low cost alternatives around for many years yet many independents continue to thrive.  
> 
> I have many retailer customers (especially high end) that feel no threat from online.  They have loyal clientele who are looking for personalized service.  Having said that, I would be naive not to acknowledge the threat online has to many (but not all) retailers just the threats they face due to managed care, the optical that just opened down the street, etc.




If we could spend less time debating whether on-line is or isn't a threat and less time debating whether it's the guy down the street who is the problem  perhaps we could all benefit from simply discussing the modern day tools on-liners use to advance their business ? 

Joe, if you were a business consultant, and if a on-line start up were to consult with you today what would you advise the client to do to to gain market share in respect to these specific areas of their startup :

1) Internet presence advertising 
2) kijiji advertising, craigslist advertising 
3) taxi cabs advertising 
4) social media advertising 
5) how would you  secure insurance company acceptance when you are not a ECP
6) how would a non ECP secure government endorsement and government recommendation 
7) how would a non ECP rewrite regulations to legalize themselves
8) how would the startup do the same simultaneously on three continents 
9) how would financing be secured institutionally

Joe this is the non imaginary marketing challenge in front of this discussion group today. If you decide to put your mind to this and accept this mission , let's discuss the marketing tools all businesses could choose today to accomplish this seemingly impossible task. 

When we understand how to employ these techniques then we understand business. Then we have options to use in part or whole.

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## tx11

> Chris- part of my comment was humor.  I do not endorse cutting fiber lines.  Just making this clear.  I don't want federal agents knocking on my door. 
> 
> I drive by a chain retailer every day that has a big sign offering 2 pairs for $69 including an eye exam.  This has been there for several years.  Within a mile of this store are at least 2 thriving independents.  There have been low cost alternatives around for many years yet many independents continue to thrive.  
> 
> I have many retailer customers (especially high end) that feel no threat from online.  They have loyal clientele who are looking for personalized service.  Having said that, I would be naive not to acknowledge the threat online has to many (but not all) retailers just the threats they face due to managed care, the optical that just opened down the street, etc.


Are those independent opticians or OD offices? OD have the benefits of insurance driving customers to them. Independent opticians do not have that.

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## tx11

*maybe low price for products is why on line thrives* even if you get your name in front of the people 100% of the time..if you don't offer what _THEY_ consider a good value ...you will lose.

----------


## coupe

A key issue with online sales would be to know the *break down of the age groups buying online*. I truly believe that it would show a greater influence towards the 18- - 30 year old bracket. Children today become computer savvy very quickly and think nothing about buying online. While, older age groups still seek out guarentees,quality & service. _The younger groups will take over the internet purchasing power in the years to come. 
_
Online sales of the future are like a Tsunami heading towards your island. One day it will arrive and the damage will be critical. It is unstopable and age related. Youth will conquer old age and youth is compter power motivated.

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## idispense

> A key issue with online sales would be to know the *break down of the age groups buying online*. I truly believe that it would show a greater influence towards the 18- - 30 year old bracket. Children today become computer savvy very quickly and think nothing about buying online. While, older age groups still seek out guarentees,quality & service. _The younger groups will take over the internet purchasing power in the years to come. 
> _
> Online sales of the future are like a Tsunami heading towards your island. One day it will arrive and the damage will be critical. It is unstopable and age related. Youth will conquer old age and youth is compter power motivated.



Ok so demographic targeting is an element to marketing our business, thank you.

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## Joe Zewe

> Are those independent opticians or OD offices? OD have the benefits of insurance driving customers to them. Independent opticians do not have that.


They are independent ODs.  One in particular expanded a few years ago and built a very high end office.

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## idispense

> maybe low price for products is why on line thrives


Ok, so having a unique offer is crucial to advertising our businesses, thank you.

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## edKENdance

> They are independent ODs.  One in particular expanded a few years ago and built a very high end office.


We are a brand new independent OD office.  Been open for less than 2 months.  We did a targeted postcard drop (so far only in one area of town) and the results have been fantastic.  We lean towards upper middle end and our store was custom designed by the owner and her business partner and it's gorgeous.  We are definitely different than anything else in our city and word is spreading like wildfire.  I've never been more certain with my career choice.

----------


## idispense

> They are independent ODs.  One in particular expanded a few years ago and built a very high end office.


Ok, so  demographics , perception, display, location and control of the Rx are important considerations. Thank you.

----------


## idispense

> We are a brand new independent OD office.  Been open for less than 2 months.  We did a targeted postcard drop (so far only in one area of town) and the results have been fantastic.  We lean towards upper middle end and our store was custom designed by the owner and her business partner and it's gorgeous.  We are definitely different than anything else in our city and word is spreading like wildfire.  I've never been more certain with my career choice.


So would it be fair to conclude this success is targeted marketing combined with Rx control and demographics ?

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## edKENdance

> So would it be fair to conclude this success is targeted marketing combined with Rx control and demographics ?


I think that's fair to say however you also need incredible staff.  Presently our office is 4 people.  There's room for another lane when it becomes necessary.

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## Joe Zewe

> If we could spend less time debating whether on-line is or isn't a threat and less time debating whether it's the guy down the street who is the problem  perhaps we could all benefit from simply discussing the modern day tools on-liners use to advance their business ? 
> 
> Joe, if you were a business consultant, and if a on-line start up were to consult with you today what would you advise the client to do to to gain market share in respect to these specific areas of their startup :
> 
> 1) Internet presence advertising 
> 2) kijiji advertising, craigslist advertising 
> 3) taxi cabs advertising 
> 4) social media advertising 
> 5) how would you  secure insurance company acceptance when you are not a ECP
> ...


Idispense, Your question is regarding building an online business sounds simple, but many things have to be in place before you market.  Assuming the prospective online client knows their cost structure, pricing structure and have identified the styles, defined their branding, etc.  I am also assuming they have ironed out the production/lab related issues, the logistics issues, and the technology issues related to building an IT platform to support an online business.  There are several unique issues facing an online optical that requires customization.  The generic web platforms I have seen will not work for online eyewear.  You need a site that allows for inputs of lens options, PDs, cyl, etc.  You also need to build in flexibility to run coupon codes, special promos, etc.  You need to be able to do photography.  It all sounds easy.  Believe me, it is not.  

I would want to know how much the online client has to invest in marketing during the period where they will lose money as they grow their business.  I would build a business model around the volumes they need to produce to cover their fixed costs.  I would study the costs and potential effectiveness of each of the advertising avenues available online.  Because the costs of keywords has been driven up, I would probably not focus on adwords, but would instead use a social media strategy that reaches out to bloggers, online publications and other social media that targets my prospective customer base.  I would make sure the business is differentiated from the other onlines and emphasize this differentiation.  I would look into promotions that do not lose money (like a second pair discount, sunglass giveaway, etc.).  The long term strategy would be to create a web presence that eventually creates a website that will appear in the search engines.  I would make sure they have an implementation plan with milestones.  I would advise the client to be prepared for mid course direction.   

Regarding your other items, I would not get bogged down taking insurance.  Consumers are generally not going online to use insurance.  In the US, government regulations do not appear to be an issue.  

Financing is the tough one.  If you are a novice in this area who cannot self fund at least a portion of this business, you will probably not be able to attract funding.  

Those are my thoughts as I write this.  When you help someone in a project such as this, you share ideas and it is an iterative process.  It is not as easy as they make it look on Shark Tank.

----------


## idispense

> Idispense, Your question is regarding building an online business sounds simple, but many things have to be in place before you market.  Assuming the prospective online client knows their cost structure, pricing structure and have identified the styles, defined their branding, etc.  I am also assuming they have ironed out the production/lab related issues, the logistics issues, and the technology issues related to building an IT platform to support an online business.  There are several unique issues facing an online optical that requires customization.  The generic web platforms I have seen will not work for online eyewear.  You need a site that allows for inputs of lens options, PDs, cyl, etc.  You also need to build in flexibility to run coupon codes, special promos, etc.  You need to be able to do photography.  It all sounds easy.  Believe me, it is not.  
> 
> I would want to know how much the online client has to invest in marketing during the period where they will lose money as they grow their business.  I would build a business model around the volumes they need to produce to cover their fixed costs.  I would study the costs and potential effectiveness of each of the advertising avenues available online.  Because the costs of keywords has been driven up, I would probably not focus on adwords, but would instead use a social media strategy that reaches out to bloggers, online publications and other social media that targets my prospective customer base.  I would make sure the business is differentiated from the other onlines and emphasize this differentiation.  I would look into promotions that do not lose money (like a second pair discount, sunglass giveaway, etc.).  The long term strategy would be to create a web presence that eventually creates a website that will appear in the search engines.  I would make sure they have an implementation plan with milestones.  I would advise the client to be prepared for mid course direction.   
> 
> Regarding your other items, I would not get bogged down taking insurance.  Consumers are generally not going online to use insurance.  In the US, government regulations do not appear to be an issue.  
> 
> Financing is the tough one.  If you are a novice in this area who cannot self fund at least a portion of this business, you will probably not be able to attract funding.  
> 
> Those are my thoughts as I write this.  When you help someone in a project such as this, you share ideas and it is an iterative process.  It is not as easy as they make it look on Shark Tank.


Joe:
It is possible , as you can see, it exists. 

In spite of all the roadblocks, let's start removing those obstacles and think out of the confines of present wisdoms and think in terms of :" Yes, it can be done, we have the technology ! "

Joe, the entire purpose of marketing, and using the tools of marketing, is to make all the women in the world insist on a diamond ring before accepting a wedding proposal. DeBeer's did  just that.

I am only asking for explanation and knowledge  of the tools and techniques required to sell eyewear and contact lenses  on 3 continents, after it's already been done.

Joe "Diamonds are Forever" but obstacles are not.

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## tx11

> joe:
> It is possible , as you can see, it exists. 
> 
> In spite of all the roadblocks, let's start removing those obstacles and think out of the confines of present wisdoms and think in terms of :" yes, it can be done, we have the technology ! "
> 
> joe, the entire purpose of marketing, and using the tools of marketing, is to make all the women in the world insist on a diamond ring before accepting a wedding proposal. Debeer's did  just that.
> 
> I am only asking for explanation and knowledge  of the tools and techniques required to sell eyewear and contact lenses  on 3 continents, after it's already been done.
> 
> Joe "diamonds are forever" but obstacles are not.


almost any roadblock can be overcome if you through enough cash at it. Thats the issue ...how to stay in business

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## HindSight2020

> So you are saying they always  did intend to make a profit . The profit came from the last sale. 
> 
> Where did they find  the equity financers ?


Absolutely, it was built to sell. We all know that giving away free products for months or years at a time costs a company huge in COGS and lost profits and is 100% not sustainable over a long period of time. 

Private equity financiers are all over the place. And I'm talking legitimate individuals, not Uncle Vinny and the cement shoes types.

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## idispense

> Absolutely, it was built to sell. We all know that giving away free products for months or years at a time costs a company huge in COGS and lost profits and is 100% not sustainable over a long period of time. 
> 
> Private equity financiers are all over the place. And I'm talking legitimate individuals, not Uncle Vinny and the cement shoes types.


can you be more specific, on the financing

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## HindSight2020

> can you be more specific, on the financing


Talk to a local Investors group office.

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## idispense

[QUOTE=HindSight2020;491014]Talk to a local Investors group office.[/

Who owns Investors Group ?

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## Golfnorth

[QUOTE=idispense;491015]


> Talk to a local Investors group office.[/
> 
> Who owns Investors Group ?


Manulife Financial

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## idispense

,,

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## optimensch

How to compete with on-line? It's the same as competing with local  b/m competitors: early to bed, early to rise, work like hell, and advertise.

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## idispense

> How to compete with on-line? It's the same as competing with local  b/m competitors: early to bed, early to rise, work like hell, and advertise.



Not quite, it's a different league. B & M are hindered by their optical training and rules. On-liners start from a fresh slate of business education not optical training. 

Optical training says it can't be done, and meanwhile the business training people are doing it.

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## idispense

[QUOTE=Golfnorth;491017]


> Manulife Financial



Really ?

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## Chris Ryser

> *Not quite, it's a different league. B & M are hindered by their optical training and rules. On-liners start from a fresh slate of business education not optical training. 
> 
> Optical training says it can't be done, and meanwhile the business training people are doing it.
> *




Thanks idispense, for your participation on this thread I have started exactly one week ago . You have shown some good logic and fine postings to get it going on a valid basis. 

Contrary to to the usual threads very little has happened to disrupt the theme and its attendance figures and views numbers have shown that there is some real concern on this theme.

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## optimensch

> Not quite, it's a different league. B & M are hindered by their optical training and rules. On-liners start from a fresh slate of business education not optical training. 
> 
> Optical training says it can't be done, and meanwhile the business training people are doing it.


The biggest, richest B/M opticals are not run by people hindered by optical training either. Mr. Delvecchio is not a licensed optician, to the best of my knowledge and is not kept up at night worrying about OC heights. He practically owns the entire industry !! 

Most onlines are there to fish in big waters, world wide almost. This is a huge bit of leverage to attempt to handle. It isn't local thinking. These are genuinely different businesses (online v b/m) despite the commodity being similar.

Whether you wish to operate an online or b/m optical, be prepared for a lot of hard work and long hours. The pile of $ required to do an online properly and to have a chance of success is a lot bigger than the pile needed to build a decent b/m.

Remember that there is very little available space on page 1 of a google search hence the "real estate" on the web is up for bidding, worldwide. The cost of acquiring paying customers on the web is tremendous (free glasses anyone?), as is the cost of just getting eyeballs and clicks on to your site.

"Success" in online right now is selling the website to a bigger fish, not from profitability of operations. The hard part for any online right now is staying funded and keeping the flow of investors dollar bills running. No easy task.

So getting back to the point of the original post by Chris - how to compete with online - to me, implies that you wish to also be successful online - perhaps a click and mortar approach (like Warby opening up retail shops). To do any significant online optical sales is the harder part, harder than selling in a new b/m store.....even if you are GIVING THE GLASSES AWAY for FREE online.

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## Den

> ...


I think there is some sense in your post. Thank you for your thoughts.

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## idispense

> The biggest, richest B/M opticals are not run by people hindered by optical training either. Mr. Delvecchio is not a licensed optician, to the best of my knowledge and is not kept up at night worrying about OC heights. He practically owns the entire industry !! 
> 
> Most onlines are there to fish in big waters, world wide almost. This is a huge bit of leverage to attempt to handle. It isn't local thinking. These are genuinely different businesses (online v b/m) despite the commodity being similar.
> 
> Whether you wish to operate an online or b/m optical, be prepared for a lot of hard work and long hours. The pile of $ required to do an online properly and to have a chance of success is a lot bigger than the pile needed to build a decent b/m.
> 
> Remember that there is very little available space on page 1 of a google search hence the "real estate" on the web is up for bidding, worldwide. The cost of acquiring paying customers on the web is tremendous (free glasses anyone?), as is the cost of just getting eyeballs and clicks on to your site.
> 
> "Success" in online right now is selling the website to a bigger fish, not from profitability of operations. The hard part for any online right now is staying funded and keeping the flow of investors dollar bills running. No easy task.
> ...



Excellent points and examples of non ECP backgrounds succeeding. Thank you.

----------


## idispense

Can anyone suggest reasons why we would want to get our business listed and our icon or avatar displayed on a GPS navigation device ? What marketing opportunities might open by doing so ? 

Can anyone suggest which financing option would be best and why you might seek out one over another ?

Can anyone research the top ten on-liners to discover and summarize the founders backgrounds as ECPs or non-optical backgrounds ?

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *................................So getting back to the point of the original post by Chris - how to compete with online - to me, implies that you wish to also be successful online - perhaps a click and mortar approach (like Warby opening up retail shops). To do any significant online optical sales is the harder part, harder than selling in a new b/m store.....even if you are GIVING THE GLASSES AWAY for FREE online.
> *



After a week full of some fruitful and serious comments reading them and thinking about it I could throw some changes to the first post into the ring.

B&M stores are no national nor international chains with unlimited funds nor investors. However the superb website traffic figures of the on-line opticals, and the interest they create with cheaper and even free glasses they create among a certain category of the population, that looks for a similar product at a lesser retail price, because of want or also need, could play right into the hands of the conservative local B&M type business.

It is rumored that Google is changing its established ways of promoting the largest and strongest worldwide websites in first place to adding a more local directed system, which would be a much more complex system to manage. This could however be an easier task for local business websites to be seen in their own local area.

So my " imaginary store " of the first post in this thread would still sell their frames and lenses at close to the on-line opticals and make the bulk income from the services offered and given for a charge that could compensate for the loss of profits of the less costly sales. It will be staffed only by experienced and seasoned opticians.  

Furthermore it would also benefit from services given to on-line purchased by buyers that need checking and adjusting.

Location will be non important as people will be looking and searching for a qualified top class service that can make their glasses fit properly.





> *................................So getting back to the point of the original post by Chris - how to compete with online - to me, implies that you wish to also be successful online
> *



My "imaginary store" would NOT sell on line, it would be the counter solution to purchasing on-line, at similar selling prices but would be heavily promoting the service part, the on-line optical can not provide.

People today understand how other professionals work. You can get parts on-line in many fields but you can not install them, because you need a professional to do it, and he charges for the services he provides.

In short I could compete with any on-line opticals in selling prices and provide services they can not.

----------


## idispense

> After a week full of some fruitful and serious comments reading them and thinking about it I could throw some changes to the first post into the ring.
> 
> B&M stores are no national nor international chains with unlimited funds nor investors. However the superb website traffic figures of the on-line opticals, and the interest they create with cheaper and even free glasses they create among a certain category of the population, that looks for a similar product at a lesser retail price, because of want or also need, could play right into the hands of the conservative local B&M type business.
> 
> It is rumored that Google is changing its established ways of promoting the largest and strongest worldwide websites in first place to adding a more local directed system, which would be a much more complex system to manage. This could however be an easier task for local business websites to be seen in their own local area.
> 
> So my " imaginary store " of the first post in this thread would still sell their frames and lenses at close to the on-line opticals and make the bulk income from the services offered and given for a charge that could compensate for the loss of profits of the less costly sales. It will be staffed only by experienced and seasoned opticians.  
> 
> Furthermore it would also benefit from services given to on-line purchased by buyers that need checking and adjusting.
> ...


Chris:

Could you further define "would NOT sell on line" ?

Does this mean you  would not offer to deliver goods to online customers who have not been personally measured or does this mean the imaginary store would not use on-line medium advertising to attract customers ? 

Idispense

----------


## idispense

There is a method by which any and all B & M legitimate  ECP's can legitimately compete with all aspects of on-line sales including acquiring the financing, and have the buying power and skill sets.

----------


## idispense

> Three ways you can compete with online:
> 
> 1)  Provide outstanding service that demonstrates to your customer that your optical knowledge makes a difference.
> 2)  Offer a better consumer experience through pricing transparency, easy to understand bundled packages and a wide selection of frames and lens products. 
> 3)  Travel around the country strategically cutting fiber optic lines thereby bringing the internet down and putting the onlines out of business.
> 
> I ran these ideas by one of the guys I work with and he said ideas 1 and 2 would be effective for the long term but number 3 would only be a short term fix.



Joe: 

Number 3 is a shot gun approach but can you think of a legal way to effectively  accomplish number 3 in a target specific manner, rather than in whole ?

Number 2 is a mouthful to advertise , can you condense and simplify that to 3 words to get the message advertisable ? 

Number 1 is a mouthful too, reduce this to a simple already known visual image of conveyance. 

Good points Joe, now condense and visualize into Oglivie fashion. 

Idispense

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## Joe Zewe

I was actually joking when I wrote number three.

Perhaps the best way to develop an online optical on a limited budget is to develop an innovative model that offers something unique and receives media and internet publicity that drives traffic to your site and increases SEO.  Once you prove you have something, you can raise money to continue the effort.

----------


## idispense

> I was actually joking when I wrote number three
> .



Give it more thought, explore that thought but legally.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Chris:
> 
> Could you further define "would NOT sell on line" ?
> 
> Does this mean you  would not offer to deliver goods to online customers who have not been personally measured or does this mean the imaginary store would not use on-line medium advertising to attract customers ? 
> 
> Idispense*




That is correct ................my "imaginary store" would NOT sell glasses on the internet, but would promote the local hands on service on the web. Website advertising directed towards the local market. Id successful other stores could be opened in different areas.

The glasses sold in the store would be priced to compete with prices offered on the web, but delivered without any service unless customer decides to take the options of his choice.

Service for glasses purchased on the web would be treated the same way. (See post No 1 of this thread).

This store would be a different concept as the present conventional B&M stores by offering top quality service by highly qualified opticians and the product sold to compete with the on-line opticals.

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## tx11

Soooo what's an estimate on how much cash you have to throw at becoming #1 on search engines? How about Chris's idea of just becoming #1 on SE to get customers into a B&M?

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## Chris Ryser

If you want to be constantly on top of the gang it probably will cost a bundle in"also service charges" . 

If you can manage some sleepless nights every 2-3 month on a regular basis, you can do it without spending a nickel and make it to number 7 to 12 and be close enough to the top.

----------

