# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Alternate Essilor Products

## emloray

Ok Gang--
Our Doctor(my boss whom I worked for for 20 years) would like me to concentrate on doing business with "Non-Essilor owned" labs. He wants me to concentrate more on privately owned labs. We have through the years done very well dispensing all the Essilor lenses, Varilux, Physio 360's etc.
He doesn't want me to totally withdraw from the Essilor owned labs but to gradually steer work away from them to some great alternate progressives. 

So what are some good to great alternates for progressives? Zeiss? Seiko? What are your thoughts.
How about AR's we're almost 90% crizal AR!!

Appreciate hearing from you,

emloray

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## gunner05

Hoya.

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## jefe

Seiko/Pentax, Rodenstock, Zeiss.  I use a lot of Shamir -- which I understand is now half owned by Essilor.

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## jefe

Oh, you may also consider the Nikon PALs sold by Encore in South Windsor, CT.  While I don't use them, I've been told they're good.

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## For-Life

Nikon is in partnership with Essilor

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## DanLiv

Our practice is almost exclusively Varilux, has been successfully for 20 years, and we use a single great Essilor partner lab for almost all our work. From time to time I experiment with different lenses and labs just to stay aware of what's out there (it's hard not to when reps want business so bad they throw free fits and lab credit at you). I tried some Pentax and Shamir, and it turned out very poorly with near 50% non-adapts. I went back to Varilux.

I just spent six weeks dispensing only Zeiss; GT2s, 3DVs, and a few Individuals. I was surprised to get 100% successful fits and pt satisfaction, and I was very happy with the product (especially Purecoat, I like it better than Avance. Sapphire will probably take care of that though). Plus, at least in my territory (Colorado), Zeiss is marketing very aggressively and offered really great prices for really great product. Zeiss labs offer a huge discount through Vision West too, though like most labs they will probably give to you same (or better) deal directly.

In the end our lab and Essilor rep got together and put together an irresistable deal for us so we are sticking with our favorite lab and Essilor. However, if we did switch I would not hesitate to go with Zeiss.

I think the failures on my other trials are not because they product is inferior, but because our patient base (and the US in general) is so used to Essilor progressive design it is hard to ween them off it. If I have been fitting a patient annually and successfully with Varilux lenses for 10 years, the chance he will balk at a radical new design is pretty good. I was expecting some resistance to the "harder" Zeiss designs, but was very happy to get zero rejection. I also did not get any "wows", even going from a traditional Physio to a Zeiss Individual, but that's ok. I wasn't expecting it.

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## Geirskogul

You could also go with some SOLA products - Teflon AR isn't that bad, but it is an adaptation with their smaller (but more focused) product line.

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## blinkvelo

let me ask What is the goal behind not doing business with Essilor Owned labs? Does this mean only 100% owned and not partner with private investment? Are you looking for privately owned lab(s) and or non-megacorporate product? Are you to stop dispensing Varilux and/or Essilor product almost completely?
IMO Hoya is very corporate and not friendly to privately owned labs. Zeiss is your biggest competition by direct selling and deep discounting to mass merchants.
Will you fully support the Independent lens brands sold through privately owned labs?
Do you rely on strong brand names for your primary frames? Will you also give up those "corporate" brands and go with smaller privately owned frame companies?
You can get some great AR if the lab you use has a fully dedicated 2-3 million dollar AR Room for there house brands.
Tell me the Dr uses the local coffee shop, TV/Electronics dealer and isn't a Cosco or sams club user. Right?

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## MasterCrafter

> Hoya.


Yup... Right now im convinced that Hoya progressives are the best or just as good as any lens out there. Thier AR coatings are better than Essilors IMO

Thier labs can be a bit pricey though. But you get what you pay for. 

Thier Amplitude/Amplitude Mini series of progressives is a cheaper way to go with them without sacrificing quality

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## MasterCrafter

> let me ask What is the goal behind not doing business with Essilor Owned labs? Does this mean only 100% owned and not partner with private investment? Are you looking for privately owned lab(s) and or non-megacorporate product? Are you to stop dispensing Varilux and/or Essilor product almost completely?
> IMO Hoya is very corporate and not friendly to privately owned labs. Zeiss is your biggest competition by direct selling and deep discounting to mass merchants.
> Will you fully support the Independent lens brands sold through privately owned labs?
> Do you rely on strong brand names for your primary frames? Will you also give up those "corporate" brands and go with smaller privately owned frame companies?
> You can get some great AR if the lab you use has a fully dedicated 2-3 million dollar AR Room for there house brands.
> Tell me the Dr uses the local coffee shop, TV/Electronics dealer and isn't a Cosco or sams club user. Right?


I hear what your syaing , BUT

At least at Sams club you can choose between many different products. The way Essilor keeps going there will be no choice. We will all be using Essilor products or services when its all said and done. Have you ever heard of a Monopoly?

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## Speed

> Ok Gang--
> Our Doctor(my boss whom I worked for for 20 years) would like me to concentrate on doing business with "Non-Essilor owned" labs. He wants me to concentrate more on privately owned labs. We have through the years done very well dispensing all the Essilor lenses, Varilux, Physio 360's etc.
> He doesn't want me to totally withdraw from the Essilor owned labs but to gradually steer work away from them to some great alternate progressives. 
> 
> So what are some good to great alternates for progressives? Zeiss? Seiko? What are your thoughts.
> How about AR's we're almost 90% crizal AR!!
> 
> Appreciate hearing from you,
> 
> emloray


You should tell your boss the cows have already all escaped.  Even trying to gradually steer away, you will likely be drawn more and more under the big E's control.  Even many of the so called independant labs have big E owned software systems that give them total access to all information, including your name and all account information.

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## Judy Canty

Seiko...only available through independent wholesale labs.

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## gunner05

> I hear what your syaing , BUT
> 
> At least at Sams club you can choose between many different products. The way Essilor keeps going there will be no choice. We will all be using Essilor products or services when its all said and done. Have you ever heard of a Monopoly?


Actually, Sam's/Walmart use essilor for the majority of their jobs.

And walmart sells seiko, so have fun competing with that monster.

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## MasterCrafter

> Actually, Sam's/Walmart use essilor for the majority of their jobs.
> 
> And walmart sells seiko, so have fun competing with that monster.


Ohh.. i must clarify. I was using sams club as an example of different products(non optical) to make a point. 

But i learn something everyday... i did not realize that walmart used alot of Essilor products

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## Lee Prewitt

iCoat for all your independant needs!

FreeForm = Inscribe
AR = Vivix, Stainless, or Aura
Not a partner lab
Cool rep if I do say so myself ;)

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## Iroc

I'm sure most offices, both indepedent & chain, use Essilor products somewhere.  Personally, I've primarily used Varilux brand progressives with great success.  I've ventured off this path & have tried the Individual & Hoyalux ID but neither impressed me so much that I would quit using Varilux.  I also found Avance to be better than Zeiss's Purecoat, atleast in the hyrophobic arena as there's definetely more effort required to wipe their lens than Avance.  Is it just me or does Sapphire not differ much from Avance, other than the blue reflex?  which I find clashes more with frame colors.  What I would like to know is if there are any independently funded studies done comparing progressives.  I've gotten my hands on a few, however they were done by Essilor so not exactly sure how "true" these are.

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## eyemanflying

> Nikon is in partnership with Essilor


Partnership? Wrong...Nikon is a subsidiary owned by Essilor.

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## eyemanflying

> Ohh.. i must clarify. I was using sams club as an example of different products(non optical) to make a point. 
> 
> But i learn something everyday... i did not realize that walmart used alot of Essilor products


Wal-Mart is 90% supplied by Essilor (or a division owned by Essilor to create some distance).

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## HarryChiling

> What I would like to know is if there are any independently funded studies done comparing progressives.  I've gotten my hands on a few, however they were done by Essilor so not exactly sure how "true" these are.


Dr Sheedy had a paper a few years back where he objectively compared PALs.

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## sharpstick777

> Nikon is in partnership with Essilor


Many of the lenses that roll offer the Essilor line in Dallas get shipped to Canada with a Nikon brand, only the envelop changes.

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## Geirskogul

We run a completely Essilor-Free business, but if you go completely E-free then you tend to get drawn under another corporate umbrella .  FOr us, it's Zeiss - though we are very happy with their products.

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## Audiyoda

iCoat or Ice-Tech - while I've personally never used either lab I know opticians that have and they have a few steps up on Hoya, Seiko, Sola-Zeiss et al...

1 - True freeform (front/back) PAL that won't break the bank at the same time
2 - Amazing turnaround times
3 - Killer AR that also won't break the bank.

I know plenty of people here in these forums love Allen @ Ice-Tech and iCoat always gets thumbs up from users as well. I don't think you can go wrong with either.

Now of you want a lab that can give you your Essilor fix along with plenty of other high quality products, I'd look seriously at Luzerne Optical Lab.

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## gunner05

> I'm sure most offices, both indepedent & chain, use Essilor products somewhere. Personally, I've primarily used Varilux brand progressives with great success. I've ventured off this path & have tried the Individual & Hoyalux ID but neither impressed me so much that I would quit using Varilux. I also found Avance to be better than Zeiss's Purecoat, atleast in the hyrophobic arena as there's definetely more effort required to wipe their lens than Avance. Is it just me or does Sapphire not differ much from Avance, other than the blue reflex? which I find clashes more with frame colors. What I would like to know is if there are any independently funded studies done comparing progressives. I've gotten my hands on a few, however they were done by Essilor so not exactly sure how "true" these are.


I know I'm going to sound like a hoya homer here but... how in the heck do you like any of the varilux products over the iD????  And the individual, for that matter, it's a great lens.  Those are both true freeforms compared to the *******ization of the term "free form" that essilor uses.  Is physio enhanced a good lens?  Of course.  Is it free form?  Not even close.  Honestly, I would probably be tempted to put the new version of the iD, (mystyle) even above autograph II since it's dual surfaced and now includes the ability to add face form, panto, etc.

All politics aside, essilor does a great job at providing a good product with excellent marketing, but really, they provide nothing unique.

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## emloray

I want to thank you all for your responses definitely gave me something to think about.
Funny thing I called the independent lab we started doing business with and asked if they were using Essilor equipment they said, Oh No! but in  the next breath replied they were an Essilor partner lab. The borg assimilates.................

emloray

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## WFruit

If they are a partner lab then they aren't independent........

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## DragonLensmanWV

I'm very happy with iCoat and I have the same high percentage of adaptation as you even though I haven't fit an Essilor progressive for over three years. Of course we surface the majority of our own (we use Younger) and for AR, we use iCoat.

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## kat

It's not hard to find an independent lab, but it is hard to find a GOOD independent lab. Once you find one they will probably offer Younger, Vision Ease, Seiko, Hoya and XCel. All of these mfg's have great products and you can be ABE in no time at all.

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## Audiyoda

> If they are a partner lab then they aren't independent........


You're right, a partner lab isn't independent - but they do have more flexibility than a ELOA lab. Partner labs can offer products from any manufacturer they choose - and can offer different pricing than the ELOA price lists. The nice thing about partner labs is they have the culture of a independent but the resources of Essilor. And for some people that's a great combination. What I don't like about it is you never know when Essilor will get deeper involved with a partner lab - some they leave alone, others then become more and more involved in to the point they have such a deep investment the lab is converted to a ELOA lab.

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## Java99

Hoya and Shamir.

We use far too much Essilor product, but when I have a difficult fit and have been through the E line up without success, the Hoya ID works every time.

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## gunner05

> Hoya and Shamir.
> 
> We use far too much Essilor product, but when I have a difficult fit and have been through the E line up without success, the Hoya ID works every time.


Ditto.  Any essilor is too much but I still haven't found a great lens to move my comfort wearers to.

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## Judy Canty

I just received my Seiko Surmount lenses.  They are awesome. Zero adaptation and the design is so soft that I thought they were SV. Thin, flat and clear!  I'm a +2.00/+2.50 ADD and I am impressed.

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## Lee H

> I just received my Seiko Surmount lenses.  They are awesome. Zero adaptation and the design is so soft that I thought they were SV. Thin, flat and clear!  I'm a +2.00/+2.50 ADD and I am impressed.



Seiko Rocks!  Getting great feedback here in NC

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## Eyeguy17

I rep a lab in Europe through our frame line.  They do all custom un-branded lenses.  True Freeform and Hydrophobic AR coatings at prices better than anything around.  If anyone is looking for alternatives to Essilor/Hoya/Shamir e-mail me and I can send more info your way.

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## cmarx

US Optical in Syracuse N.Y. good lab nice turn around and anything BUT Essilor.

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## sjthielen

We made the decision to become Essilor Free about 8 years ago and have used both Zeiss and Hoya product.  We have decided that Hoya provided us with better product expecially AR coatings.  This decision was also based on the fact Hoya promotes Independent businesses better than other labs

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