# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Dispensing PDs To Patients

## JadeA21

I know some clinics give the patients their PDs, however, I was wondering if there was a law in Texas that do not allow clinics to hand out PDs to the patients. I was talking with a doctor from another clinic about giving out the pupillary distance and he said that it was not allowed. So I was wondering if that was just a Texas thing or an overall law.

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## bta89

Well if the pd is part of their medical file and they have paid for their visit, you are required by law to give them their pd. However, if you don't make it part of their file and only take the PD when you do glasses, that's different. I know some offices will charge people for taking their time to measure PD's for people who are just going to go online or elsewhere. I don't know what Texas law is but that gives you an idea

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## optical24/7

There’s no such law in Texas just as there’s no law that eye glasses Rx’s expire in one year in this state.

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## GrahamEye

The genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back in and thinking it will go away.
The best our field can hope and strive for is better educating our patients with a push from our regulatory oversights to help. (waiting for laughter on that one...)

We in the field also need to be not just handing out PD's like it is no big deal, yet not making a fuss and upsetting a patient over it either. I explain to patients with children how the PD can and will change til they are in their twenties, those with Ft28 and Progressives that PD is only one set of numbers they need (and that I can't help them with seg height), that many get you on the website with cheap prices, but you end up paying more for what you really need or want for you RX, and that quality standards are not handled the same way. Don't compare your $1 MCD burger to  a really good homemade or steakhouse quality burger; don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
While these don't stop a patient from going online, I am instilling with them that they will not be getting a comparable product and that the "almighty PD" isn't as powerful as the online sites make it out to be.

Side rant: 
Where would the online optical places be if we could refuse to give the PD? 
And who started that we, the optical workers, NEED to give the patient the PD? Most likely the online places by the wording and passive commentary that the doctor/optical staff should or would easily give that out. If the patient didn't believe that, we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

Airbnb, Uber, and Lyft only work because they have someone else facilitate the means for their model to work. Or, by my observations, in some situations working around/pushing the limits of state and federal regulations, which create whole new problems, in order to keep functioning.
If any of these companies had to spend the money to provide all the materials themselves, and follow the letter of the law, they might not be as successful or work at all.

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## AngeHamm

> We in the field also need to be not just handing out PD's like it is no big deal, yet not making a fuss and upsetting a patient over it either. I explain to patients with children how the PD can and will change til they are in their twenties, those with Ft28 and Progressives that PD is only one set of numbers they need (and that I can't help them with seg height), that many get you on the website with cheap prices, but you end up paying more for what you really need or want for you RX, and that quality standards are not handled the same way. Don't compare your $1 MCD burger to  a really good homemade or steakhouse quality burger; don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
> While these don't stop a patient from going online, I am instilling with them that they will not be getting a comparable product and that the "almighty PD" isn't as powerful as the online sites make it out to be.


I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.




> Where would the online optical places be if we could refuse to give the PD?


In basically the same situation, except their customers would take their own PDs.

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## Chris Ryser

> *................don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
> **While these don't stop a patient from going online, I am instilling with them that they will not be getting a comparable product* *and that the "almighty PD" isn't as powerful as the online sites make it out to be.*



Very nice post ...........................


However you should not forget that the largest and biggest block of online opticals today, are owned by Essilor and Luxottica.

Both of them now produce top quality frames and lenses each one of them.

Sometimes over the next few weeks the merger will happen and you can be assured that they will not compromise their quality reputation, through, and with cheap online sales.

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## GrahamEye

> I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.
> 
> 
> In basically the same situation, except their customers would take their own PDs.


I second the taking of the OC height. That was reinforced to me through my training to take it on ALL SV lenses.
Doing this also helps patient's understand how the RX will work for their eyes, and to understand how thickness will be affected by the placement for those with high RX.

Yet, if they took their own PD, they would see (no pun intended) how poorly that would work for them...possibly.

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## rbaker

Record the customers interpupillary distance in Furlongs. Feel free to give it to them when they ask.

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## Quince

> Record the customers interpupillary distance in Furlongs. Feel free to give it to them when they ask.


Bwahahaha!

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## OcuSky

It is an old old topic. Here  is the "Eyeglass Rule" issued in 1978, the link is here.
https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rule.../eyeglass-rule

*RULE SUMMARY:*The Eyeglass Rule requires that optometrists and ophthalmologists provide patients a copy of their prescription after the completion of an eye examination without extra cost. In addition, the Rule prohibits optometrists and ophthalmologists from conditioning the availability of an examination on a requirement that patients agree to purchase any ophthalmic goods.

Major content:

1. Definition of "A Prescription"
A _prescription_ is the written specifications for lenses for eyeglasses which are derived from an eye examination, including all of the information specified by state law, if any, necessary to obtain LENSES for eyeglasses.

Explaination:
RX means all the info from eye axam, which are necessary to obtain LENSES, not the eyeglasses, so from this definition, NO data of PD is needed for getting LENSES. PD is for fitting eyeglasses.

2. About the Copy of RX

It is an unfair act or practice for an ophthalmologist or optometrist to:
(a) Fail to provide to the patient one copy of the patient's prescription immediately after the eye examination is completed. Provided: An ophthalmologist or optometrist may refuse to give the patient a copy of the patient's prescription until the patient has paid for the eye examination, but only if that ophthalmologist or optometrist would have required immediate payment from that patient had the examination revealed that no ophthalmic goods were required;

Explaination:
The major reason for Eyeglass Rule is to limit ECPs' sales activity of any kind of conditioning.

This Rule is from 1978, it is meaningless to stick to the wordings of 40 years ago. If your patients ask for PD, I think just give to them the PD. No matter what.

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## OcuSky

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/doc...0813-99442.pdf

WarbyParker's letter to FTC about the Eyeglass Rule (OphthalmicPractice Rules), in Oct, 2015

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/doc...867-138463.pdf

WarbyParker's letter to FTC about the Contact Lens Rule in Jan, 2017

FTC is considering to change the rules, but it may take some time.

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## OcuSky

If the definition of RX goes this way, then in today's online scenario, optometrists are required to give the PD to patients.

"A _prescription_ is the written specifications for lenses for eyeglasses which are derived from an eye examination, including all of the information specified by state law, if any, necessary to obtain EYEGLASSES."

But do you think was there any difference between "necessary to obtain EYEGLASSES" and "necessary to obtain LENSES of EYEGLASSES" if you were the drafter of the "Eyeglass Rule" in 1978? I think there is no difference in 1978's scenario. Any way, my thinking is to give the PD to patients, no matter what.

Any Federal or State law or rule won't last for so long which still fits today's scenario. Sticking to these wordings which might mean nothing in the eyes of the Rule's drafters.

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## bretk0923

> Don't compare your $1 MCD burger to  a really good homemade or steakhouse quality burger; don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.


This is a completely brilliant quote.

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## optical24/7

> I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.
> 
> .


^^This.

 Though technology will soon accurately provide vertical heights, it’s important to have that conversation with those requesting a PD. I happily release a PD I have on record. ( it’s part of their medical, you have to) But I do it with an upbeat attitude!

I tell them, “ This is your monocular PD. If the site you’re ordering from doesn’t allow this accuracy, just add these numbers together “. ( seed of caution).

” But, I can’t give you a vertical PD. “

(Deer in head light look) “ What’s that?”

”The monocular measurement is horizontal, but there’s a vertical position that your pupils are at that are frame dependent. That measurement can only be take when the frame you’re getting is adjusted and sitting on your face. It’s as important as just this side to that side.”  ( another seed)...

After cheerfully scribbling their PD on a sticky note and handing it to them, I usually get asked what we would charge for their lenses. If I haven’t made my case for being a better value, so be it. I find many are dissatisfied with their *cheap* purchase and return, because we weren’t A *oles about their friggin PD.

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## OcuSky

> ^^This.
> 
>  Though technology will soon accurately provide vertical heights, it’s important to have that conversation with those requesting a PD. I happily release a PD I have on record. ( it’s part of their medical, you have to) But I do it with an upbeat attitude!
> 
> I tell them, “ This is your monocular PD. If the site you’re ordering from doesn’t allow this accuracy, just add these numbers together “. ( seed of caution).
> 
> ” But, I can’t give you a vertical PD. “
> 
> (Deer in head light look) “ What’s that?”
> ...


Yes, happily release PD. If patients feel unsatisfied with their purchase from other places, they will go back to us finally.

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## Chris Ryser

> AngeHamm[/B]]
> 
> 
> 
> _I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing._




................they will be capable very soon as they are working hard at it.

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## Kwill212

Well, I've got a few thoughts on these subjects. 

If, or when the FTC places regulation on the release of the dreaded PD, the responsibility of releasing said measurement will surely have to be on the doctor. Because how can you try to regulate an unregulated industry(opticians)?  Who is going to decide the proper way to measure a PD? Will the doctor copying down, or printing out, the recorded PD they used setting up the phoropter be sufficient? How about the PD from the auto refractor? Will they be required to use a CRP, measure manually with a PD stick, use a digital centration device, spot demo lenses? No offense the doctors here, but I can hardly trust the ODs and MDs in my area to get the Rx right let alone measure a PD correctly. I certainly won't be usuing anyone else's measurements. Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here, but the list goes on and on. If FF lenses become common place, will doctors be required to provide POW measurements somehow as well? I'm not sure how they would without a frame, but the idiocy of having people make laws and regulations without any knowledge of the subject whatsoever will never cease to amaze me. 

OC heights. Firstly, I think it was Barry who said we should be calling it pupil height vs OC height, since the 2 are rarely coincident. I have to agree with that sentiment. OC is a location of a lens. Pupil height is a patient measurement specific the chosen frame. Regardless what term is used, it doesn't do any good without also measuring pantoscopic tilt as well. I can't count on all my fingers and toes the amount of times I have recently heard the suggestion that the OC needs to placed right in front of the pupil. Or have seen it in new patients glasses who's last pair were from WP or the big box.  

Rant over.

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## drk



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## Chris Ryser

Here is Barry Santini's article from 2010 in the 20/20 Magazine

* https://www.2020mag.com/article/taki...re-perfect-pds*

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## Alex Camblor

We print PD's on our Rx's and Patients are free to go elsewhere, but we make it clear that we will not provide free service or troubleshoot any glasses purchased elsewhere.  That includes verifying the RX or adjustments.

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## Chris Ryser

> *We print PD's on our Rx's and Patients are free to go elsewhere, but we make it clear that we will not provide free service or troubleshoot any glasses purchased elsewhere.  That includes verifying the RX or adjustments.*



You have the perfect attitude in your statement. 

Once the big merger has gone through, you will be facing a much bigger competition on the retail level and retail pricing, by one the biggest high quality optical corporations, world wide.

They can instantly, convert their own owed over 10,000 retail stores, world wide, to act as service centers for their online sold eyeglasses, most probably against a fee.  

This seems to me the most logical and least costly solution to instantly boost their online sales (now at 11% of total retail sales) to a much higher number.

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## rdcoach5

> Very nice post ...........................
> 
> 
> However you should not forget that the largest and biggest block of online opticals today, are owned by Essilor and Luxottica.
> 
> Both of them now produce top quality frames and lenses each one of them.
> 
> Sometimes over the next few weeks the merger will happen and you can be assured that they will not compromise their quality reputation, through, and with cheap online sales.



Chris, could you PM me those websites? I haven't kept up with them like you do. thanks

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## Chris Ryser

*On Line Glasses or services, section started July 2009 * 
( 74 active sites listed with their Alexa traffic ratings ) 
*   ▲ partially updated February 26, 2018, ▲*
*Company*
*GOOGLE PR RATING*
*ALEXA, traffic rating (best 1)*
*URL*

*Zenni Optical*

*8,947,* * in the USA*  *2,005*






*http://www.zennioptical.com*

*WarbyParker*

 *9,734**, in the USA*  *1,906*
*https://www.warbyparker.com* 

*Eyebuydirect (Essilor)*

* 9,734**, in the USA  * *1,906*




































*http://www.eyebuydirect.com/*

*Oakley  (Luxottica)*
on-line seller
 *15,963**,* * in the USA *  *5,927* 
*http://oakley.com/* 

*Glasses USA*

*   21,645,* *  in the USA *  * 4,424*
*http://www.glassesusa.com/* 

*Coolwinks (Essilor)*

*20,512, in India 1,055*
*https://www.coolwinks.com* 

*evision**.com**, redirects to 1800 Contacts.com*  *(Luxottica) *  * Merger / Acquisition* December 16, 2015

*  29,299,** in the USA *  *5,593*
*http://www.1800contacts.com/* 

*FramesDirect (Essilor USA)*

 *  32,149**,in the USA  *  * 8,772* 



*http://www.framesdirect.com/* 

*Firmoo Optical*

 *  33,849**, in the USA * *11,897*






*http://www.firmoo.com/* 

*Mr Spex, (Germany)*

 * 48,815,* *    in Germany *  *1,992*














*http://misterspex.de* 

*En Chroma for color blind*
online seller
 *  50,022**,  in the USA*  *18,009* 
*http://enchroma.com /  * 

*   ▲     updated February 26, 2018, ▲*
11

*   ▲     updated February 26, 2018, ▲*

 * ▲** Below 50,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 50,000*  * ▲*

*Glasses Direct, UK, (Essilor)*

*57,883**, in the* *UK* *11,140* 
















*http://www.39dollarglasses.com/ * 

*Coastal (Lensway,  ESSILOR)*




*  58,974, in the USA* * 12,333* 














*https://www.coastal.com/eyewear/lensway.html* 

*Clearly Contacts Canada**  Coastal Contacts-Glasses, * 

*60,944, in Canada* * 1,503*



*http://www.clearlycontacts.ca/* 

*Vision Direct UK  (Essilor)*




*91,499, in the UK* * 5,174* 
*http://www.lensway.co.uk/* 

 * ▲** Below 100,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 100,000*  * ▲*

*Visionworks*

 *     99,629**, in the USA*  *17,671*
*http://visionworks.com* 

*Goggles4you*

 *    99,680,** in the USA*  *22,640*
*https://www.goggles4u.com* 

*Glasses.com (Luxottica)*

 *  96,598**, in the USA*  *23,638*
*http://www.glasses.com* 

*Eyeglasses.com*

 *  108,918**,*  *   in the USA *  *23,577* 

























*http://www.eyeglasses.com/* 

*eyeconic VSP*

 *  109,666* * in the USA *  *23,005*
*http://eyeconic.com* 

BonLook Eyewear, Montreal
60% up
 * 162,074,** in*  * Canada*  * 6,236*
*http://bonlook.com* 

*lensbest Germany (Essilor)*

*  168,83, in Germany* * 9,493*
*http://lensbest.de* 

direct-optic.fr

 * 230,897**, in France *  * 8,701*
*http://www.direct-optic.fr/* 

*   ▲     updated February 22, 2018, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated February 22, 2018, ▲*

*LensesRx.com*
30% up
 *  271,150**,  in USA *  *54,965* 






*http://lensesrx.com/* 

*Mr Spex, UK*

 *   275,757,* * in the UK *  *34,283*














*http://www.misterspex.co.uk/* 

*Safety Glasses USA* 




 * 304,719**,*  in USA    * 99,464* 



*http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/* 

*Oscarwylee.com,  Australia*

 *  327,465** in Australia*  *8,106*
*http://www.oscarwylee.com.au/* 

*Fuse Lenses*
50% up
 *  368,180**, in the USA*  *105,269*
fuselenses.com

*Shopviu, Switzerland*
50% up
 *   393,297** in Germany*  *62,352* 
*https://de.shopviu.com/en* 

*PerfectLens Canada* (contact lenses)
30
*    443,948, in Canada* * 11,261*
*http://www.perfectlens.ca* 

*Frameri*

*   462,356** in USA**, *  *183,105*
*https://frameri.com*

*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*

 * ▲** Below 500,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 500,000*  * ▲*






*Gkboptical.com India (Essilor- India)*

*  563,470,** in India*  *56,555* 
*http://www.gkboptical.com/* 

*BestBuyEyeglasses.com* 







*622,116** in USA*  *115,774*



*http://www.bestbuyeyeglasses.com/* 

*Eyeglass Lens Direct*

 *734,121**, in USA*  *243,342*



*http://www.eyeglasslensdirect.com* 

*Dioptics   Sunwear*

 *   762,687**,*  *  In the USA *  * 182,846* 
*http://www.diopticssunwear.com /*

*ReplaceALens*

 *801,509** in the USA*  *193,360*
*http://www.replacealens.com* 

*SaltCityOptics*
39
*   846,661* * in USA*  *188,263* 
http://www.saltcityoptics.com

*ilookglasses, Canada*

*    851,140, in Canada* * 26,423*
*https://www.ilookglasses.ca* 

*CLEARLY (ESSILOR Australia)*

 * 300,949, in Australia* * 5,891*














*https://www.clearly.com.au* 

*Sunoptics*

 *908,980**, in Greece*  *98,619*
*http://www.sunoptic.com* 

*Replacementlensexpress.com* 

 *  941,487**, in USA *  *290,283*



*http://www.replacementlensexpress.com/* 

*Global Eyeglasses*

*      953,360,*  * in the USA*  * 171,298* 
*http://www.globaleyeglasses.com/* 

*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*

 * ▲** Below 1,000,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 1,000,000*  * ▲*

*ClearVisionOptical*

*   1,021,422, in the USA*  * 304,772*
*http://www.cvoptical.com*

*On Line Opticians UK*

 * 1,065,687**, in the UK *  *67,991*
www.onlineopticiansuk.com 

*Optical 4 less*

*1,576,403**, in USA *  *552,807*

















*http://www.optical4less.com/#* 

*MyOptiqueGroup (new, Essilor,Aug 16 2016)*

 *1,489,663**, in the UK*  *118,993*
*http://www.myoptiquegroup.com* 

*Visio-rx.com* 

*1,755,107*
*http://www.visio-rx.com /*

*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*

 * ▲** Below 2,000,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 2,000,000*  * ▲*

Aura Visual Concepts, Inc.

*2,200,263*
*http://auralens.net/* 

*Lookmatic*

 * 2,406,655**, in the USA*  *424,005*
*http://Lookmatic.com* 

*Monocles*

*2,436,790*
*http://www.nearsights.com/* 

*Opticalweb (Switzerland)*

 *  2,692,395**, in Marocco *  *26,799* 
*http://www.opticalweb.ch* 

*Contactsan   (Clearly Contacts China. ESSILOR)*

*2,256,488*
*http://www.contactsan.com/* 

*OPTICAL WAREHOUSE, (Quebec)*

*2,793,113, in Canada*  * 68,857*
*http://entrepotdelalunette.com/en* 

*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated December 16, 2017, ▲*

 * ▲** Below 3,000,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 3,000,000*  * ▲*

*Specspost.co.uk* 

*3,738,850*
*http://www.specspost.co.uk/* 

*Leotony*

*3,486,175*
*https://www.leotony.com/?utm_source=13.7.250* 

*Online Eyecenter*

*3,174,780*



*http://www.kounopt.com/* 

*MaxLens ((Clearly Contacts) Japan, ESSILOR))*

*3,772,504*
*http://www.maxlens.com/* 

*Dead Men's Spex
Vintage Eyewear*

*4,393,488*






*http://www.deadmensspex.com/default/* 

*Contact Lens Express UK*

*4,846,790*
*http://www.contactlensesexpress.co.uk* 

*Theyedoctor.com*
62
*5,846,962*

























*http://www.theyedoctor.com/* 

*Yasui Lens (Clearly Contacts, Japan,ESSILOR)*

*6,004,301*
*http://www.yasuilens.com/* 

*EyeWeb*

*6,215,060*
*https://www.eyeweb.com* 

*Shady Sluts*
56
*6,532,105*
*http://shadysluts.com* 

*Myonlineoptical.com (ESSILOR)*




*8,656,879*



*http://www.myonlineoptical.com* 

*Contactexpress Canada*

*9,909,752*
*http://contactexpress.ca* 

VERIFEYEWEAR.COM (Toronto)

*16,024,489*
http://VERIFEYEWEAR.COM

*Hisunglasses*

*10,746,204*














*http://www.hisunglasses.com/* 

*   ▲     updated December 24, 2017, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated December 24, 2017, ▲*

 * ▲** Below 30,000,000*  * ▲*


 * ▲** Below 30,000,000*  * ▲*





















*   ▲     updated December 25, 2017, ▲*
▲
*▲*
*   ▲     updated December 25, 2017, ▲*

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## Uncle Fester

From the corporation that would never try to undercut opticianry and optometry. At least that's what they said when they started out. Some of us on OB were skeptical...

https://www.lenscrafters.com/lc-us/how-to-measure-your-pd

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## drk

Awesome.  I can now tell them to go online to measure it themselves.

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## waynegilpin

We used to hand out a card I wrote that said:


The PD is only one of numerous measurements required to fabricate glasses.  It is the responsibility of the person fabricating and dispensing the glasses to take all of these measurements, verify the measurements on the completed glasses, and to be responsible for their accuracy.

When pt.s asked me how on line companies could take their measurements, I said that I guessed there was a flaw in their business plan.

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## Chris Ryser

> *When pt.s asked me how on line companies could take their measurements, I said that I guessed there was a flaw in their business plan.*



These days they all have way to tell their customers where and how to take a PD, and are even working to come out with some automatic device to do it.

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