# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Political Posts - Should they go or should they stay?

## Steve Machol

As discussed and demonstrated in *this thread*, political polarization has poisoned online political discussions including such discussions on OptiBoard. As I indicated, I am no longer willing to be dragged into these political rants and have asked OptiBoard members for their recommendations and advice.

Interestingly enough, a number of members have contacted me privately to express support for me personally but are afraid to actually post publicly anything to that affect because they too don't want to be subjected to the incivility of specific members. As one put it:




> I see lack of civility coming from a small minority of members who make personal attacks and innuendos. They have been warned many times and continue to insult other posters and make innuendos that are definitely out of bounds.


So here is the Poll. The choices are to either ban political posts entirely, or to allow them with specific limits, i.e., a separate forum and membership in a specific usergroup. Please vote in this poll and thanks again for all your support.

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## HarryChiling

Civility, politics, etc.  There will always be issues what you have is a few bullies that have effectively run the members of value from the forum.  The less I post the easier to see why its a good idea not to post.  I can just read posts and gain all I need to gain.  Honestly lately I have noticed its all opinions and fluff here, I get 20/20 mags with more content.

Why aren't the forum moderators trying to spur discussion and create an environment that is conducive of the boards goals.  If you just sit back and let the animals run the zoo, they are going to eventually throw feces at each other.

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## Wes

> Civility, politics, etc.  There will always be issues what you have is a few bullies that have effectively run the members of value from the forum.  The less I post the easier to see why its a good idea not to post.  I can just read posts and gain all I need to gain.  Honestly lately I have noticed its all opinions and fluff here, I get 20/20 mags with more content.
> 
> Why aren't the forum moderators trying to spur discussion and create an environment that is conducive of the boards goals.  If you just sit back and let the animals run the zoo, they are going to eventually throw feces at each other.


Agreed.  Over the last few months, I have been seeing the same things and feeling the same way.

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## Chris Ryser

> I see lack of civility coming from a small minority of members who make personal attacks and innuendos. They have been warned many times and continue to insult other posters and make innuendos that are definitely out of bounds.



Politics has a role in a partially regulated industry as the USA and fully regulated Canada where politics has deregulated one Province and probably more might be going the same way.

Disagreements should be tolerated without personal insults allowed.

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## idispense

The issue isn't politics. 

Optiboard has many viewers but only a mere handful are engaged.

A surgeon cuts out cancer but the patient still dies of the same disease because the surgeon cut out the symptom but didn't deal with the real problem.

The problem is not politics, the problem is the majority of your viewers aren't engaged. There is not enough content, or diversity of content to attract more viewers into conversations.

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## Steve Machol

> Why aren't the forum moderators trying to spur discussion and create an environment that is conducive of the boards goals.  If you just sit back and let the animals run the zoo, they are going to eventually throw feces at each other.


You are absolutely right Harry. One of the problems is that personally I have been out of the optical business ever since SOLA Optical eliminated my job in 2001. Consequently I am not up-to-date on many of the products and issues facing today's eyecare professionals. If anyone wants to help with this, please feel free to contact me.

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## AngeHamm

All I know is, the most consistently useful and civil online discourse I have ever experienced has been at the Home Theater Forum, which has two rules:

1) Use your actual name as your screen name

2) No religious or political discussion

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## harry a saake

Steve, as I do and many others, how about making it mandatory that you use your real name, ive never had a problem with that, why should anyone else, it would also eliminate a lot of the BS

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## Jubilee

One reason many folks prefer screen names is due to problems with clients or corporate entities. You might be surprised who reads these forums.

As far as politics is concerned, I don't think there is a clean way to separate the politics from the current health care scene. With the ACA, the partial gov't shut down, concerns over online eyewear, and licensure... politics comes part and parcel with these topics. I do believe there is a way to have discourse, discussing the FACTS of the situation, and not the ideology...such as how to take advantage or make the most of the pediatric vision benefit. (Hey, drk.. maybe you can get parents to get sports eyewear, contacts, or other benefits for their child now they don't have to pay for the exam and 1st pair benefit! Then there is VT as well...) 

I also believe the same can be said about the politics in the industry and keeping the discussion civil. I miss the insight Pete Hanlin has, and wish people from any of the 800lb gorilla companies could participate in discussions with us on this board as well to try and understand one another. Similar to when some of the podcasts will feature folks from Lux, Essilor, Eyemed, etc..

I am not sure how many folks have heard of Deborah Tannen's "The Argumentative Culture." My sister had to read it for a college class and shared it with me. Essentially it is making the observation that we as a society have broken off into a black or white, us vs them, I'm right and you're wrong culture. The two most extreme view points are expressed when "covering both sides." We seemed to have forgotten there are centrists, shades of grey (and not the steamy book!) and more than 2 camps. Every thing has to be about the fight. Storage Wars, Mommy Wars, Property Wars.. Epic Battles, duels, winners or losers..everything is phrased as its life or death. 

"But perhaps the most dangerous harvest of the ethic of aggression and ritual fighting is -- as with the audience response to the screaming man on the television talk show -- an atmosphere of animosity that spreads like a fever. In extreme forms, it rears its head in road rage and workplace shooting sprees. In more common forms, it leads to what is being decried everywhere as a lack of civility. It erodes our sense of human connection to those in public life -- and to the strangers who cross our paths and people our private lives." For Argument's Sake; Why Do We Feel Compelled to Fight About Everything?by Deborah Tannen
The Washington Post, March 15, 1998

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## Jason H

How can you seperate your occupation from politics? That it has surfaced on Optiboard (and every other board that has ever existed) is testament to it's pervasiveness. It isn't a lack of courage that dissuades posts though, it's a roll your eyes- here we go again disinterest that smart folks are uninterested in getting dragged into. I support Optiboard and I think what's offered here is important. I also do not envy moderators their duties here. Few people come here to listen - most come to lecture. And there are few professors here I care to listen to the days lesson from. I am content to ignore these. But there are also opticians here far better than me and their advice I am indebted to. Knowing the difference is my responsibility.

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## Johns

> How can you seperate your occupation from politics?


I think that the majority of people, across the world do it on a daily basis. They also separate their religion from their occupation.

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## Jason H

Johns, 
      Just an observation, so I respectfully disagree. My evidence is simply this - if it were so easy to seperate this thread would not exist. Again, just an empirical observation of what actually happens.

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## Johns

> Johns, 
>       Just an observation, so I respectfully disagree. My evidence is simply this - if it were so easy to seperate this thread would not exist. Again, just an empirical observation of what actually happens.


Jason,

We might be talking about two different issues.  I was thinking of all the commerce that goes on, on a daily basis between Catholics and Jews, Republicans and Democrats, Heterosexual and Homosexuals, and so on.  They put their differences aside for the sake of making a living.

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## Jason H

Yeah Johns, totally behind you and I understand your point. But consider how many times these things bleed over - like all the contentious debate about things that aren't really optical discussions on Optiboard. Yes, people put aside their differences just to get things done - but it's not long before someone takes exception to something. Do you think it's realistic to keep the board totally free from this? And if so - how?

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## Johns

> Do you think it's realistic to keep the board totally free from this? And if so - how?


Yes, absolutely.  Here's how:



> Yes, people put aside their differences just to get things done -


The "put aside their differences" would mean not only ignoring issues we find offensive, but more importantly, avoiding saying things that could be deemed to be.  An example of this (one I have been guilty of) would be that when referencing Medicaid, avoid the stereotypes that would incline others to join in a less than constructive way. 

The "get things done" would be be keeping Optiboard open and relevant.

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## Jason H

Its a good thought, but we differ on it's practicallity. As for myself - If the swimming pool looks too dirty I just don't go swimming. Myself I can decide for - but for others its not so easy to control what they do. Good luck and thanks for the debate. They should all be this easy.

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## Johns

> Myself I can decide for - but for others its not so easy to control what they do.


Not many people struggle with self-control more than I do (Poster child for Attention Def. Disorder). If I can do it, anyone can.  

Give Optiboarders some credit! :Happy:

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## Stan Tabor

When I venture into the "Just Conversation" forum, I know that it is going to be something of a free for all.  It can be hard to honestly talk politics as things quickly escalate due to the hyper sensitivity in today's politically correct society.  When attacks become personal, members should be warned and if it continues, they should be banned.  One would have to be pretty naive to think you can change someone's political views on optiboard.

What bothers me more is the misconduct I see in the general eyewear forum.  Particularly when someone expresses a legitimate opinion and then insults start.  False innuendos are made and piling on occurs.  In the past, I got drawn into a few of these situations and now I stick to the facts or just look the other way.

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## Wes

What's the verdict?

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## Steve Machol

> What's the verdict?


The second option is winning. Honestly though, I would rather not have to deal with political posts ever again. And I really don't believe that everyone can behave themselves. If they could, a poll like this wouldn't be necessary.

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## jpways

The choice I would have voted for if I had seen it would be to only allow discussions as they directly relate to ECPs, like the Ohio CL license thread, because side discussions of politics seem to get nasty very quickly, though it looks like our trolls keep under their bridges most of the time.

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## fjpod

I say let people talk about whatever they want to...but if someone crosses over the line of sensibilities, then warn them once or twice, and then suspend or expel them.  I wouldn't let moderators get in the middle and plead for decency, I would just warn or suspend the offender privately, then cut him/her off at the third strike.  

There's nothing wrong with political or religious discussions.  Some people are just bullies and are out to attack whomever...is not like them.  Cut them out.

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## Steve Machol

> I say let people talk about whatever they want to...but if someone crosses over the line of sensibilities, then warn them once or twice, and then suspend or expel them.  I wouldn't let moderators get in the middle and plead for decency, I would just warn or suspend the offender privately, then cut him/her off at the third strike.  
> 
> There's nothing wrong with political or religious discussions.  Some people are just bullies and are out to attack whomever...is not like them.  Cut them out.


This is exactly what I have been doing over the last few years. It simply doesn't work. It only provokes those people into long, drawn-out arguments over what constitutes 'over the line' and then they resort to calling me a censoring dictator who is running roughshod over the rights of the 'oppressed' who are simply trying to enlighten us with their brilliant political observations.

I'm sick of it frankly and I don't understand why I have to spend time dealing with these people. It's not worth the time or effort and adds absolutely nothing of value to the Board.

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## fjpod

Don't deal with them.  Just warn them, then cut them out.  Don't explain yourself.  Just cite the rules and blow them off...but I am not in your shoes.

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## becc971

i'll be honest, i'm cruising the board a lot more and finding a lot of useful threads now that the political ones seem to have "stopped"

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## Steve Machol

> Don't deal with them.  Just warn them, then cut them out.  Don't explain yourself.  Just cite the rules and blow them off...but I am not in your shoes.


Good in theory. Then I get all sorts of people going everywhere they can to complain about how 'unfair' I am. And I also get messages telling me that my 'overhanded' moderation has killed OptiBoard for them. Again, if I wanted to continue the same way than I wouldn't have even started this thread.




> i'll be honest, i'm cruising the board a lot more and finding a lot of useful threads now that the political ones seem to have "stopped"


Me too. And I have yet to hear a compelling reason why OptiBoard should allow the political trolls and ideologues to poison the well for the rest of us.

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## MikeAurelius

As a case in point, Steve, a thread from 12 years ago was just resurrected in the 'Just Conversation' forum. Looks like an invitation to blow things up.

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## davelp

I deliberately have avoided Optiboard for a while simply due to some of the vitriolic Ad Homenem <sp> attacks that I have seen over political things. I realize that personal life and working life is influenced by politics but, I have wanted this to be a civil place where intelligent debate and advice could be had, the political stuff doesn't belong IMHO.

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## MasterCrafter

> I deliberately have avoided Optiboard for a while simply due to some of the vitriolic Ad Homenem <sp> attacks that I have seen over political things. I realize that personal life and working life is influenced by politics but, I have wanted this to be a civil place where intelligent debate and advice could be had, the political stuff doesn't belong IMHO.


You have avoided OptiBoard because of the "Just Conversation" section?

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## Steve Machol

> You have avoided OptiBoard because of the "Just Conversation" section?


As you well know, the vitriol was not limited to the Just Conversation forum. For some people this appears to be a way of life.

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## Don Gilman

This is still called Opti Board, so keep the discussions related to optics. If I want to hear political views I can turn on the radio and hear them all day long

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## davelp

> As you well know, the vitriol was not limited to the Just Conversation forum. For some people this appears to be a way of life.


Indeed, it was getting to the point where almost any post on any forum was likely to make you a victim of attacks., I'm with Don.

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## MasterCrafter

> As you well know, the vitriol was not limited to the Just Conversation forum. For some people this appears to be a way of life.


Well I believe that any talk outside optics should be contained in the "just Conversation" forum. I think people here should be able to handle that if they know the rules. 

With that being said, the regular forums should be for Optics Only...period!!

I dont understand why people feel the need to attack somebody else for asking an optical question. In my book no questions are dumb. If a person needs help with something, they are asking for a reason. The attackers should either answer the question, or stay silent.

Oh and Steve I have to say I was wrong about something and must make a correction. I once told you OptiBoard was dying, I was way wrong, Over 5000 people online in early October. Thats a heck of alot of people online at one time. Congratz, you are doing a great service for the Optical community and deserve some kudos

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## Steve Machol

> Oh and Steve I have to say I was wrong about something and must make a correction. I once told you OptiBoard was dying, I was way wrong, Over 5000 people online in early October. Thats a heck of alot of people online at one time. Congratz, you are doing a great service for the Optical community and deserve some kudos


Thanks.

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## Stan Tabor

> This is still called Opti Board, so keep the discussions related to optics. If I want to hear political views I can turn on the radio and hear them all day long


Talking about the latest progressive lens product, experiences with frame lines, etc. are one thing.  They are clearly related to optics.  

But what about topics like giving out PDs?  Vision insurance? Essilor buying everyone?  Whether opticians need to be certified? Throw one of these topics out there and the board lights up and ultimately arguments and insults begin.  But do these topics have anything to do with optical?  Yes, I believe they are relevant issues for anyone in the business.  However, I find it frustrating when people are put down for their legitimate views or accused of things not at all relevant to the topic.   I have found that when I acknowledge the fact that there are very few hard and true black and white facts in this business, I can accept other's points of view even if I do not agree with them.  Sometimes you have to think gray, not black and white.

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## SailorEd

The reason I come to this board is to peruse the expertise of the opticians and OD's who post here.  I have learned a lot and I have shared what I have experienced AS AN OPTICIAN on this board.  I go to political boards to express my political views, I don't need to express them here.  It is the WRONG forum to do so.  I am a card carrying member of the Liberal Wing of the Democratic Wing of the Democratic party ... what does that have to do with Opticianry?  Nothing!  The rules of optics don't change just because someone is from the left or right or belongs to this religion or that.  No political entries.  Believe me, from being on numerious political boards, it leads to mudslinging and usually entrenches itself in meaningless rhetoric.

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## Jason H

If it were so easy to seperate political views from your profession this thread would not be a concern. It would never cross over into the threads here. If you would like to keep it completely free from opinion or political thought, ban posting. Simply put a copy of Darryl's brilliant Opticampus segment up and forbid people to speak their mind. If this is too extreme, please recognize and exercise your God given right to simply abstain from conversations that have become too charged for the fragility of your ego. I do not envy the moderators here - it is their job to steer conversations back to optical concerns. And they do mightily stray. But it is not realistic that a health care field in this day and age would be completely detached from politics. And if Optiboard is to remove itself from what is realistic - what is the sense. So please - show a bit of discresion, thicken your skin a bit, leave mindless vitriol to the mindless and God bless our moderators for refereeing difficult subjects. But most of all - don't collect anvils if you live in a glass house.

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## optilady1

I started coming to optiboard because it was a place to learn some stuff and it was a social online environment where I could be amongst others who can relate to how insane life as an optician can be.  I am certainly not at the top of my game, and I come here first if I have questions concerning opticianry, but I enjoy most the silly threads, optical and non optical.  I mean the first time I ever posted was the 'other uses for a pd stick' thread!!! (I said a shank)
I personally don't have much problem with political threads.  I even enjoy some of the back and forth (admittedly in the same way some can't look away from a car wreck). However, being the non-confrontational person that I am, I find it amazing that people act as d-baggy as they do, even hiding behind an online name, when things get really heated though.  
I think it's so sad that you even have to deal with this issue Steve.  I guess since this is your baby, you should do whatever makes your life easier.  Or have a one warning rule and then kick out all the jack holes that misbehave.  It would make me sad if we limited OB to optics only, because I've made so many friends here, and honestly talk about my optical friends all the time, and I don't think it would be as cool if limited to general optics conversation. But you should do what you feel is best for you.

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## NCspecs

> If it were so easy to seperate political views from your profession this thread would not be a concern. It would never cross over into the threads here. If you would like to keep it completely free from opinion or political thought, ban posting. Simply put a copy of Darryl's brilliant Opticampus segment up and forbid people to speak their mind. If this is too extreme, please recognize and exercise your God given right to simply abstain from conversations that have become too charged for the fragility of your ego. I do not envy the moderators here - it is their job to steer conversations back to optical concerns. And they do mightily stray. But it is not realistic that a health care field in this day and age would be completely detached from politics. And if Optiboard is to remove itself from what is realistic - what is the sense. So please - show a bit of discresion, thicken your skin a bit, leave mindless vitriol to the mindless and God bless our moderators for refereeing difficult subjects. But most of all - don't collect anvils if you live in a glass house.






> I started coming to optiboard because it was a place to learn some stuff and it was a social online environment where I could be amongst others who can relate to how insane life as an optician can be.....I personally don't have much problem with political threads. I even enjoy some of the back and forth (admittedly in the same way some can't look away from a car wreck). However, being the non-confrontational person that I am, I find it amazing that people act as d-baggy as they do, even hiding behind an online name, when things get really heated though.


Yes and yes.

I've used the internet for more than half of my life. When I see a controversial topic posted on Facebook or on a news site I usually steer clear of the comment section just because I know that I'll only end up annoyed.  It seems like 90% of the online community likes to think "I'm invisible I can do/say what I want" which results in poorly written, often vitrolic diatribes that don't offer anything constructive to the conversation. As mouthy as I am in "real life" I try not to type anything I wouldn't be comfortable saying to someone's face and I suggest some of my fellow Optiboarders do the same. 

I don't often join in the political "conversations" here because it's never about the ideaology but more about the p1ssing match; who can get the nastiest dig in. I have yet to see anyone type, "You know, I never thought about it that way, I concede you could be right".

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## Steve Machol

> I don't often join in the political "conversations" here because it's never about the ideaology but more about the p1ssing match; who can get the nastiest dig in. I have yet to see anyone type, "You know, I never thought about it that way, I concede you could be right".


Exactly right. I have even made that point before. No one is convincing anyone else with their political comments. It's all just a 'p1ssing match' as you say.

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## drk

It's hardly only Optiboard's problem. 

Isn't this society today, though, what with our own news channels reporting our own news and own facts?  Plus our own politicians with their own reality?  

To take it to the root cause, we have essentially two "worldviews" dominant in the West today and they are diametrically opposed on many--if not most--issues. 

Succinctly put, half this world thinks the other half is literally crazy.   There's no working with "crazies".  What universe are they living in?

I think the solution is for one side to demonize the other.  Then it will be easier to exterminate them, then there would be no problems with people getting along.  If not extermination, just lock them away and throw away the key.

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## Steve Machol

All true drk. Honestly, political posts add absolutely nothing of value to OptiBoard and are the major cause of complaints about the site and the reason many people have told me this place in 'unfriendly'. I have yet to hear one good reason to allow political posts on OptiBoard.

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## drk

I hope that we can decide that we are all of the same _something_ (nation, community of mankind, whatever) and, while never sacrificing something important to ourselves, at least have a fundamental respect for others to have a different viewpoint without dehumanizing or de-legitimizing them.

Hey, we can and should try to convince others if the matter is important.  But with kindness and honesty.

I'm sure I'm guilty as charged on that count.

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## MakeOptics

> I hope that we can decide that we are all of the same _something_.


A jet all the way from my first cigarette to my last dying day.

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## NCspecs

> It's hardly only Optiboard's problem. 
> 
> Isn't this society today, though, what with our own news channels reporting our own news and own facts?  Plus our own politicians with their own reality?  
> 
> To take it to the root cause, we have essentially two "worldviews" dominant in the West today and they are diametrically opposed on many--if not most--issues. 
> 
> Succinctly put, half this world thinks the other half is literally crazy.   There's no working with "crazies".  What universe are they living in?


*A*-_freaking_-*men.*

I have things I believe strongly in, but not at the expense of my relationships, even if they are simply cyber-friendships. I don't even believe people are "wrong" per se, they just don't see the problem or the issue through the same lens that I do. We as a country could use a big dose of empathy and humility- BOTH SIDES.

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## vcom

I have found this to be true for any and all public forums.  Not just optiboard.

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## harry a saake

steve, this is a no brainer, only 42 people at the most want to keep this garbage alive, you going to allow 42 people out of the thousands of members ruin the board. Get rid of it once and for all.

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## lightbender27

/\ Everything he said...

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## Moss

Where would something like this fall in the spectrum of political posts?

http://theeyewearblog.com/pop-art-ge...rd-sunglasses/

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## Uncle Fester

> Where would something like this fall in the spectrum of political posts?
> 
> http://theeyewearblog.com/pop-art-ge...rd-sunglasses/


Probably fine until someone like me throws a snowball by saying I didn't know he was a world class pastry chef which escalates into a rock fight because someone takes it the wrong way (and doesn't get the joke and pun by knowing the significance of the blue white and red collar) and we're off!!!

I miss the controversial threads as the board becomes boring imo and don't get why if you don't like a political thread you can't just ignore it or block it if it bothers you that much.

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## Hayde

The bottom line (as I see it) boils down to two facts:

1.  Vitriol isn't completely ingorable by any user.  It demands user effort to scan through, discard, and generally avoid.  Even the thickest skinned user has to make a cognitive effort to sort the useful from the emotional, attention-sucking tirades.  Regardless of what one thinks of the merits of political discourse, permitting these high weeds means makes Optiboard less attractive for professionals to use for professional purposes.

2.  Moderators have finite resources of time, attention, and morale.  If forum discourse is offputting to a substantial plurality of users, it's that much more draining on moderators who can't ignore it.  This makes their forum experience more negative, accellerating turnover, and the forum is worse off.

It would be wise to keep the board a fun experience to moderate rather than a toxic one.  User satisfaction will follow suit well enough.

Having said that, I voted for option 3...if someone really wants to rant politics here, then why not take their money and let them do it in folders unseen by anyone but the willing?

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## Uncle Fester

> Having said that, I voted for option 3...if someone really wants to rant politics here, then why not take their money and let them do it in folders unseen by anyone but the willing?


When politics are involved in a thread I'm generally responding not only to the poster but more especially to the dozens if not hundreds of lurkers- who seem to flock to the thread when political policy disagreements arise. I especially take umbrage when information is distorted or wrong.

We know who the regular progressive/conservative, liberal/right wing, democratic/republican leaning posters are but I want lurkers to see or better still be persuaded my opinion or rebuttal.

If it was paid subscribers only I doubt I would post as much.  

To which I know many of you would say great!    :Tongue:

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