# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  I need my PD taken

## cwinma

Have you had anyone come in for a PD only and how did you handle it ?

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## Mizikal

I tell them that the optician will do that when they place there order.

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## rdcoach5

> i tell them that the optician will do that when they place there order.


AGree! How do think a plumber would react if you bought parts online and asked him to replace them for free? I think he would tell you where to put them.Come on, people, it's not like there is not a lot of knowledge needed to being an optician. Fezz and Johns , where are you ?

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## hcjilson

I'd be happy to take their measurements and provide prescription verification, as well as the first frame adjustment for a sixty five dollar fee. Maybe more if the sign has changed in my car mechanic's shop. Fee for service. It's what we all should be doing.

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## Judy Canty

Interestingly, as a Licensed Optician in Virginia, I am liable for eyewear fabricated using my measurements.  That's the current interpretation of our regs by our state board.  So, no measurements from me unless I'm making the eyewear.

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## rdcoach5

> I'd be happy to take their measurements and provide prescription verification, as well as the first frame adjustment for a sixty five dollar fee. Maybe more if the sign has changed in my car mechanic's shop. Fee for service. It's what we all should be doing.


And how is that being received? Have you actually had patients that have paid for that srevice?

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## ppatricia81

> Interestingly, as a Licensed Optician in Virginia, I am liable for eyewear fabricated using my measurements. That's the current interpretation of our regs by our state board. So, no measurements from me unless I'm making the eyewear.


 I agree with CuriousCat, about liability its a service they receive when purchasing there glasses. Where I work we are not allowed to measure PT's PDs if there not getting the glasses with us.

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## Sambb

If they aren't ordering anything and just do the PD for them.

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## WFruit

See this thread: http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...ghlight=online

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## AngeHamm

> Interestingly, as a Licensed Optician in Virginia, I am liable for eyewear fabricated using my measurements. That's the current interpretation of our regs by our state board. So, no measurements from me unless I'm making the eyewear.


A VERY key piece of inoformation, CC.

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## hcjilson

> Interestingly, as a Licensed Optician in Virginia, I am liable for eyewear fabricated using my measurements.  That's the current interpretation of our regs by our state board.  So, no measurements from me unless I'm making the eyewear.


I would hope we'd all be liable for the measurements we make, and be confident enough in them to charge for the service.....which would include Rx verification. I haven't had any inquiry's yet but I'm only in it part time and limited to my existing customers. If you could do 2 a day you would be adding 130 bucks to your daily wage which, I would guess, would more than offset the inconvenience.

I don't see the relevance of the liability issue.

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## Judy Canty

> I don't see the relevance of the liability issue.


Few ever do, but then why take the risk given our proclivity for lawsuits and victimization?

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## Barry Santini

Interesting, as I just had my *first* request for a PD only from a non-client yesterday.  Seems they took their Rx from  their doctor's office (my main referral source) and tried to place an order for Rx suns online.  Vendor came back and said they needed "PD". This person called the same Dr.s' office for his PD, and was told they don't take this measurement.  He then asked where could he go (?)  They responded (remember, they are our main referral source) contact Long Island Opticians. After I digested all the political ramifications of refusing, and making his Dr.s office (and perhaps me) lookling in a poor light, I decided that "Yes", we would render this service.  I also felt that offering an "al la carte" approach is consistent with my premise that Online is just *unbundling" B&M ECP services.

So it is.  He hasn't shown up yet. But if he does, I'll take a proper, monocular PD, both DV & NV, and charge $15.00 for this service.

And so, I'm officialy on the yellow-brick road to the OZ of dealing with the paradigm changes brought by online eyewear.

B

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## NeGlassesGirl27

> So it is.  He hasn't shown up yet. But if he does, I'll take a proper, monocular PD, both DV & NV, and charge $15.00 for this service.


Thanks for answering the question I was going to as. (Even though I know this has been discussed before) I, personally, have not had anyone walk in asking for this information but I need to talk to the OD to see if a "service fee" should be rendered. I think a $15-$20.00 fee would be sufficient for the time that we take to give this person the information they need to purchase glasses online. :bbg:

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## MikeAurelius

You guys realize that you are going to give rdcoach5 and drk a screaming frothing at-the-mouth stroke, right? :bbg::drop::hammer::shiner::p

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## uncut

> Interesting, as I just had my *first* request for a PD only from a non-client yesterday. Seems they took their Rx from their doctor's office (my main referral source) and tried to place an order for Rx suns online. Vendor came back and said they needed "PD". This person called the same Dr.s' office for his PD, and was told they don't take this measurement. He then asked where could he go (?) They responded (remember, they are our main referral source) contact Long Island Opticians. After I digested all the political ramifications of refusing, and making his Dr.s office (and perhaps me) lookling in a poor light, I decided that "Yes", we would render this service. I also felt that offering an "al la carte" approach is consistent with my premise that Online is just *unbundling" B&M ECP services.
> 
> So it is. He hasn't shown up yet. But if he does, I'll take a proper, monocular PD, both DV & NV, and charge $15.00 for this service.
> 
> And so, I'm officialy on the yellow-brick road to the OZ of dealing with the paradigm changes brought by online eyewear.
> 
> B


...your message to this consumer is that it is "OK" to wear a pair of self-ordered, non-ECP verified, fitted, and maintained medical devices.    :angry:

Enabler!

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## hcjilson

> Interesting, as I just had my *first* request for a PD only from a non-client yesterday.  Seems they took their Rx from  their doctor's office (my main referral source) and tried to place an order for Rx suns online.  Vendor came back and said they needed "PD". This person called the same Dr.s' office for his PD, and was told they don't take this measurement.  He then asked where could he go (?)  They responded (remember, they are our main referral source) contact Long Island Opticians. After I digested all the political ramifications of refusing, and making his Dr.s office (and perhaps me) lookling in a poor light, I decided that "Yes", we would render this service.  I also felt that offering an "al la carte" approach is consistent with my premise that Online is just *unbundling" B&M ECP services.
> 
> So it is.  He hasn't shown up yet. But if he does, I'll take a proper, monocular PD, both DV & NV, and charge $15.00 for this service.
> 
> And so, I'm officialy on the yellow-brick road to the OZ of dealing with the paradigm changes brought by online eyewear.
> 
> B


You sell your service cheaply. Your car mechanic gets more than that for just saying Hello! ( this is not meant as a put down to mechanics, they KNOW what they're worth.) It would be helpful for participants in this thread to keep in mind that the internet customer is not YOUR customer. You have already lost him.The customer who walks in your door FOR ANY REASON, is your customer. Your living depends on the person in front of you and no one else. Take care of him properly and he will do the same in return. Why are eye care professionals always afraid to compete?

And to Keri I would say the fee charged has little to do with the time involved. It has everything to do with placing a value on Service. That's with a capital S and how you will always be able to compete with not only internet companies, but your local competition as well.Dont sell yourselves too short. Service can save your business, because when all is said and done, all we sell is service. Products you can buy anywhere.

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## eyeGJ

Internet Spectacle Purchase and PD Measurement: Previous discussion was reiterated that
once a PD measurement has been taken, the optician is responsible for the measurement
information provided. However, the optician has the right to refuse to provide requested
information.

SC Board of Examiners In Opticianry
12/11/08

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## chip anderson

Figure out how much your time is worth.   Charge appropriately (most industrial suppliers pay about $20.00) and you have to verify and adjust the frame (with those damn fixed side shields.)  have the patient sign a release that you are not resposible for _anything_ including free services on anything purchased elsewhere and pocket the money.

Chip

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## gogetter

> And how is that being received? Have you actually had patients that have paid for that srevice?


i charge fifty. i explain to them that its a professionals service charge. i have had two this year. pretty much covers lunch for the staff.

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## Barry Santini

> ...your message to this consumer is that it is "OK" to wear a pair of self-ordered, non-ECP verified, fitted, and maintained medical devices. :angry:
> 
> Enabler!


Yes, this situation is dilemmic!  I certainly may be part *enabler*.  But I see this as also keeping peace with my referral source, which condeming me conveniently overlooks.

B

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## Barry Santini

> Internet Spectacle Purchase and PD Measurement: Previous discussion was reiterated that
> once a PD measurement has been taken, the optician is responsible for the measurement
> information provided. However, the optician has the right to refuse to provide requested
> information.
> 
> SC Board of Examiners In Opticianry
> 12/11/08


 
Repsonsible? Better be pretty sure "your" PD is correct!

Q: How does one "really" know?

B

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## WFruit

Bottom line: Until (IF) this ever gets regulated, it's up to each individual optician if they are going to do it and how much they will charge.

I have the feeling it's going to go the same way as state licenses: States with licensing requirements will put the liablity on the optician IF they choose to take the measurements (such as in VA and SC) and they will allow opticians to refuse to take the measurements if they so choose. Those states without licensing requirements will be just as they are now, a mess, with little or no accountability and it being strictly up to each person whether they want to take the PD and how much they want to charge if they do.

Until there is legal regulation, arguing about whether or not it should be done is a waste of time. Those who are going to do it are going to do it anyway, and those who aren't going to do it won't. Patients are simply going to go (or call, or search online) from shop to shop until they find someone who will do it.

Presonally, I would not do it. But if someone like Barry wants to do it, and is willing to accept whatever liability respsonsibility there may be, then more power to him. I'd rather a qualified professional such as him be doing it than someone who's been on the job for a week in box store C in an unlicensed state.

In the end, as with A LOT of issues in our profession, it comes down to education, both ours and the patients (they are NOT consumers, they are patients, as we are making a medical device derived from the prescription of a medical professional).

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## NeGlassesGirl27

> And to Keri I would say the fee charged has little to do with the time involved. It has everything to do with placing a value on Service. That's with a capital S and how you will always be able to compete with not only internet companies, but your local competition as well.Dont sell yourselves too short. Service can save your business, because when all is said and done, all we sell is service. Products you can buy anywhere.


I will agree with you. Although, I do think it has SOME what to do with the Opticians time. If something goes wrong with the glasses, guess where that patient is going to go? They are going to come storming back into your office (even though THEY bought them online and it had nothing to do with you, other than the measurement) I do 100% agree with placing the fee on the price of service.

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## UFRich

I implemented a $30 service charge 2 years ago and have maybe done this a dozen times.  I ma reevaluate the amount I charge and increase it accordingly.  We also offer to apply the fee paid to an eyewear purchase if they return within 30 days and purchase from us.

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## Wes

So you can make a small fortune in the optical lab business, but it takes a large fortune to get started...  How much smaller of a fortune might it be on discounted cheapie internut glasses?

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## DragonLensmanWV

Our write-up forms for glasses has three copies-one for the customer that is their receipt, one for the lab tray, and a hard copy for the main files. What we do now is measure their PD, and write it only on our hard copy, their copy has all the Rx, frame info and everything but the PD.

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## Michael Walach

_"It's not a question of technology, Michael.   Technology smechnology,  there is little technology involved in taking a p.d. or a fitting  height."

_Well, check some of the *AUTOMATED PATIENT MEASURING SYSTEMS, DIGITAL MEASURING SYSTEMS* or *PHOTO DISPENSOMETERS*, what ever you want to call it; you will find that technology just might beat the P.D. stick or pupilometer even in the hands of the professional optician. Particularly, when it comes to fully personalized patient adjusted power lenses where panto, wrap angle, and vertex are all required measurements in order to realize optimum visual performance.

_"It's about professional oversight.  It's about making sure people know  what they're doing.  It's about quality control.  It's about  accountability.   It's about qualifications.  It's about reliability.   It's about trust."

_No one is suggesting that the requirements for e-commerce Rx business is lack of professionalism,having no idea what you are doing, lack of quality control, accountability, qualifications, etc. It is more about realizing new reality, accepting it as a fact of life and adjusting our modum operendi rather than fighting it. Opticians will have to adjust their professional services offer to new market demands and opportunities they present, just like Barry Santini is suggesting, find new creative ways how to market their skills and realize new lucrative revenues for their practices. Do you think for a moment that the "giants" in the eye care business in the US and abroad are ignoring the e-commerce trends in their strategic planing at this moment as we are contemplating "who owns the P.D.". I suggest you check some of the Google statistics; today around 150,000 people will buy Rx eyeglasses online and big majority of them are going to be satisfied with their purchase.

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## Barry Santini

I now take the pupillary measurement three ways:

1. I hold the instrument - taken monocularly (alternate occlusion)
2. The client holds the instrument - taken monocularly (alternate occlusion)
3. The client holds the instrument - taken monocularly (alternate occlusion)

Then...I average and determine the target PD I will fabricate to (& calculate for wraps from).

This means some values are recorded and blocked to 0.1mm values. It's not more accurate. It's just a better target than one measurement, taken one time by one device.

I also feel that horizontal precision is only _really_ important in progressive centration...particularly with wrap progressives, or higher add powers.

FWIW

BTW, there's a survey I have of digital centration devices, done in the UK, that concluded that all digital centration heights should be verified _manually._

_??????????_

B

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## uncut

Digital automated haircuts, anyone?  @ Michael W....I'd like the devices you mention actually fit/dispense as measured.

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## optical24/7

> _" ......_ I suggest you check some of the Google statistics; today around 150,000 people will buy Rx eyeglasses online and big majority of them are going to be satisfied with their purchase.


Michael, I can't find backup to these numbers on Google. Everything I've found says that 1-2% of Rx eyeglasses are bought online. at 150,000 a day, and using a generous 2% of total market means 7,500,000 eye glasses are purchased daily...I doubt that number is correct.

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## Michael Walach

Upla, my apology, 150,000 per month; about 5,000 to 6,000 per day.

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## Michael Walach

Not yet, but be careful what you wish for.This is the part that opticians are trained for and can do it for a professional fee, consult and advise for professional fee. Professionals render their services for a fee, entertainers entertain for a fee, merchants buy and sell for profit; that what keeps the world go around.

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## kcount

Just had my first huffy patient about the PD. Non-Client was here with here Grandchildren and daughter who are patients and have a history of purchases. She pipes up and askes me to take the PD. I explain I would be happy to, and there is a fee. She gets huffy and states I should do it for free since her family comes in. I just smiled and noted I could do this as a fee for service. Needless to say I never took the measurement. 

Simple rules folks! This is a business not a hoby!

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## Michael Walach

_"Digital automated haircuts, anyone?  @ Michael W....I'd like the devices  you mention actually fit/dispense as measured." 						_

Not yet, but be careful what you wish for.This is the part that  opticians are trained for and can do it for a professional fee, consult  and advise for professional fee. Professionals render their services for  a fee, entertainers entertain for a fee, merchants buy and sell for  profit; that what keeps the world go around.

Pertaining to _digital automated haircuts_ I wouldn't know about it; I have opted out of those professional services about 30 years ago for few reasons: first, thanks to _technological advancements in electric razors_ I can do it myself, second, there is not much hair left anyway, and third, I gave up to work on my good looks and decided to work on my personality instead. Time will tell...

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## Barry Santini

K:

With a family of *your* clients in tow, I might have acceeded and done this on the house, as a courtesy. 

Hard to say....

B

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## uncut

> Just had my first huffy patient about the PD. Non-Client was here with here Grandchildren and daughter who are patients and have a history of purchases. She pipes up and askes me to take the PD. I explain I would be happy to, and there is a fee. She gets huffy and states I should do it for free since her family comes in. I just smiled and noted I could do this as a fee for service. Needless to say I never took the measurement. 
> 
> Simple rules folks! This is a business not a hoby!


Well done, KC.  Doing so would be sanctioning and enabling, both a distasteful and unprofessional contribution.

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## keithbenjamin

Jeez, people! If I had half as much confidence in my value proposition and in the belief that online opticals are bad for the consumer as many of you do, I'd put a neon freakin' sign out front that screams "FREE PD MEASUREMENTS HERE! >>>"
  When a customer walks in looking for a PD, I'd only ask they first be willing to talk with me about their eyewear needs before I took the measurement. Like shooting fish in a barrel, right? If not, perhaps your horse isn't quite so high and maybe you want to rethink your value proposition or the package in which it is delivered.

  I'm with Chris and Barry; how can a customer walking into your store with an immediate need for eyewear ever be a bad thing, even if they've already decided they would be better off buying their eyewear somewhere else? Possible answers: A. You don't need the business. B. Selling is beneath you. C. They happen to be right.

  There are any number of ways this could be turned into an opportunity. However, I would think of using it (in conjunction with an entire approach to business) in ways to 'wow' people, to take people by surprise and get them talking about you, to generate referrals and word-of-mouth, to engender trust and potential future business, instead of ways to generate a quick $20. Of course this only works, if your business is centered around a remarkable customer experience and obviously won't work if you've already concluded PD-seekers are cheap, stupid users, instead of real people with wants and needs that you have the ability to help.

  For those interested, I highly recommend the following books relevant books. They might just inspire you to rethink the prevalent attitudes in optical and maybe even help turn perceived banes into golden opportunities (and no, none of this implies you should start selling eyewear online).

  The Referral Engine - John Jantsch
  Purple Cow - Seth Godin
  Linchpin - Seth Godin 
  Free: The Future of a Radical Price - Chris Andersen

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## Barry Santini

+1 Keith!

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## uncut

Sorry, keithbenjamin....Great Beer by the way..........but your reading list consists of wannabees, and reflecting upon the current state of your economy, their advice is....irrelevant and outdated.


I've survived 2.5 recessions, more than I can say for a looooong list of competitors, and well meaning pudits and peers. 

-1

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## keithbenjamin

Interesting opinion, Uncut. Have you read any of these books? At what point did you discover that customer service, personal relationships, word-of-mouth, and exceeding expectations had become outdated, irrelevant concepts in business?

Reflecting upon the state of _my_ economy (and my industry), I've concluded these ideas are more critical than ever. 

Since we are considering books published within the last year outdated (Linchpin and Referral Engine) let me add a truly outdated tome to the very top of the list. 

How to Win Friends and Influence People (1936) - Dale Carnegie

Some ideas are timeless.

-Keith

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## Michael Walach

Barry, you should be sitting on the top of the mountain; fresh to hear the wisdom!

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## hcjilson

> Interesting opinion, Uncut. Have you read any of these books? At what point did you discover that customer service, personal relationships, word-of-mouth, and exceeding expectations had become outdated, irrelevant concepts in business?
> 
> Reflecting upon the state of _my_ economy (and my industry), I've concluded these ideas are more critical than ever. 
> 
> 
> Since we are considering books published within the last year outdated (Linchpin and Referral Engine) let me add a truly outdated tome to the very top of the list. 
> 
> How to Win Friends and Influence People (1936) - Dale Carnegie
> 
> ...



Speaking of wisdom, there is more than a little wisdom in Keith's suggestion.!

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## Chris Ryser

> *How to Win Friends and Influence People (1936) - Dale Carnegie*
> 
> *Some ideas are timeless.*
> 
> *-Keith*


 
Reminds me of my Dale Carnegie graduation party in 1957.

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## hcjilson

You slick talking son of a gun......you should have been a salesman!!!    :):)

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