# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Hybrid cars...anybody got one?

## fjpod

I do a lot of local driving and was thinking of getting a Ford Escape.  Maybe it's not the best in mileage of the hybrids, but it has more room.

Can anyone relate their experience wih hybrids?

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## Framebender

Come on Doc. . .buy a Harley!  45 to 55 mpg and if you need more room get a sidecar or one of the old 45ci three wheelers!!  My buddy gets better than 70 mpg with his three wheeler!!  You'll also look very cool!!
 :Cool:  :D  :Cool:

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## chip anderson

Unless I missed something in the little bit of physics I have learned.  You cannot change one form of energy to another without energy loss.  This basicly makes the hybred a looser.  Also makes the electric car a looser.

However I did back in the early '50's own a few Studebakers that got 35 miles to the gallon no matter how much the engine was past worn out, had enough power to pull a large boat, free wheeling, a hill holder (kept car in place when stopped on an uphill, and would do 85 mph all day long (getting 35 mpg) with 6 people in the car and all the windows down.  All this with a heavy cast iron carbureted engine, a heavy cast iorn frame and real metal fenders and body.

Too bad Detroit or somebody doesn't want to make a planetary overdrive and use a modern light weight engine with computerised fuel injection.  Bet it would do more than the old Stude and get 60 miles per gallon.

Not all progress is in the right direction.

Chip

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## shanbaum

Chip, how is it that even when you're right, you're wrong?  What you say about energy conversion is correct, so far as I know.  However, hybrids (and other electric cars) use energy that's normally lost during braking to charge their batteries - so there's a net gain.

That's why they're not losers.

Having said that, I think my next car may be a diesel Jetta - over 40 mpg without the complexity of a hybrid.

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## fjpod

It's good to see we don't just argue over optical thngs.  Anybody else?

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## shanbaum

I suppose I should've added I agree with Chip's fondness for Studebakers, since I'm usually bashing him.  The day they closed was one of the saddest in automotive history.  Imagine what a updated Golden Hawk might be like...

I know RT has a hybrid SUV (I think it's an Escape), and likes it a lot.  Maybe he'll chime in, or you could PM him.

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## chip anderson

I might also mention that Ford and Chevy had similar transmissions (although much poorer aerodynamics, and less fuel efficent engines) up 'til 1955.

Ford also had the Colombia two speed rear end for similar results, low gears for take off and much higher overall ratios that the silly fixed five speeds attached to the sewing machine engines now in cars.

When you had a 4:11 rear end for take off and towing and could switch to a 2:36 for the highway. You had something.  Not to mention you could stomp it to floor which droppe you back to 4:11 for passing.

Chip

If I ever find a very good condition '54 Stude Champion Regal Hard top, I'll buy it, put in an aluminium V8 with modern aspiration and ignition.  I'll expect at least 50 mpg and a top end of 150 or more.

Chip    :cheers:

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## rbaker

We should be looking at the net economic impact that any system has rather than just gas mileage. The internal combustion/electric (Prius) hybrid vehicles do achieve a 10 to 20 percent average reduction in fuel burn which at first seems attractive (at highway speeds of 60  75MPH the fuel consumption drops to that of a comparable powerplant.) However, the economic break even point for the owner is some six years down the road due to the higher initial cost of these vehicles. In addition, the replacement of the batteries at the five year point is a rather expensive procedure and must be taken into account.

If we look at these vehicles from a broader perspective we find that any savings in fuel costs that the owner achieves are paid for by the general public through the hidden expenses involved in the disposal of the lead/acid storage batteries. When we also factor in the additional fuel that is used to manufacture the electrical components that are added to the vehicle  to make it a hybrid  we find that there is a net loss in the efficiency of these vehicles. Its like a shell game  borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. The driver gets to save a dollar but his neighbors have to kick in a buck ten.

An interesting side bar to fuel economy is the loss of tax revenue that occurs as we drive more fuel efficient vehicles. And, to complicate matters they want the taxpayer to provide incentives to the users of hybrids.

This idea of fuel efficiency is relatively new to us and runs counter to the American automotive manufacturers. But, things are changing and higher fuel costs may be getting the attention of the Big Three. It will probably take fuel prices up around $7.00 a gallon (in todays dollars) to actually have any significant impact. Despite fuel prices in excess of $3.00 a gallon discretionary driving us at its highest level ever. We will still drive 500 miles to the beach or mountains.

The hybrid is a way point on the road to much more fuel efficient (and, I might add, drivable) vehicles. We will probably end up driving internal combustion engines fueled by hydrogen produced by electricity from a nuclear power plant.

To respond more specifically to your request for hybrid experiences, I have a friend who bought a Toyota Prius for his wife and she loves it. He loves it too and bought a second one for himself. My cousin bought one for his granddaughter as a graduation present and to take off to college. She loves it. In fact, the only criticism that I hear from hybrid owners concern not getting the mileage that was advertised (but, what else is new) and poor long distance highway performance.

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## fjpod

I was considering a hybrid not so much to save money on fuel, but, as nieve as this may sound, to decrease the amount of money I spend on foreign oil. With the mid-size SUV I have now, I'm lucky if I get 12 mpg in the city. An Escape hybrid would exceed that by at least double. If everyone did it, we could eliminate consumption of imported oil. 

Of course, as rbaker points out, you've got to consider whether the extra components which go into these vehicles consumes more oil in the first place. I think even after considering this, a hybrid will save on oil consumption. 

Sure I'd like to save money. Sure I'd like to help reduce greenhouse gases. But, what I'd really like to do is stop buying imported oil...even if it costs a little more. Even if it costs a little more to power my car, it could save the US (and Canada, eh) billions in money going to hostile powers, which in turn cause us to spend more money for defense.

E-85 fuel (85% ethanol), hydrogen, fuel cells...are not here yet. If car buyers show the automakers that they want change by buying hybrids now, it should accelerate the changeover. If we keep buying the same old gas guzzlers, the auto makers won't change.

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## rbaker

Lets see now, you do not want to put foreign petroleum products into a fuel tank that was made in the Bombay out of steel made in China into your Japanese auto which was made in Singapore and shipped to the Port of Los Angeles on a Panamanian ship to be unloaded by wet backs.

OK, you can either look for a good wood burner made in Vermont or buy your fuel from Citgo as the majority of their product line is domestic. You might also want to look up Willie Nelson. You might also want to be very thankful that so few vehicles are hybrids.

Sorry, just an attack of sarcasm. Your stated goal of using less foreign oil will best be served by hammering your elected pecker heads in Washington and Albany into removing the restrictions on the domestic exploration and wellheading of petroleum and the construction of new refineries, particularly in New England. And, remember, you aint just talking about gasoline here  dont forget fuel oil. While you are at it, see if you can get these bozos to remove some of the regulatory requirements that, while well meaning, have actually contributed the unintended consequence of high fuel prices.

But, not to worry. Science and engineering will work out the solution. Legislation will screw it up. Some things never change.

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## fjpod

rbaker, 

You might be right about pressuring elected officials...but, I was planning on buying American made...Ford.

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## For-Life

Buying domestic does not matter to me anymore.

The way I see it is the companies are either Japanese, American, or South Korean, so that money leaves Canada anyways.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda all have plants in Canada, and I support that.  The fact is if I buy a vehicle I am supporting the Canadian factory jobs whether I buy domestic or not.

So I buy the better vehicle and that is Import.

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## shanbaum

> Buying domestic does not matter to me anymore.
> 
> The way I see it is the companies are either Japanese, American, or South Korean, so that money leaves Canada anyways.
> 
> Toyota, Nissan, Honda all have plants in Canada, and I support that. The fact is if I buy a vehicle I am supporting the Canadian factory jobs whether I buy domestic or not.
> 
> So I buy the better vehicle and that is Import.


What brand could a Canadian buy that _wouldn't_ be an "import"?

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## For-Life

> What brand could a Canadian buy that _wouldn't_ be an "import"?


That is what I am saying, they are all imports to us.  But we are told that we should buy US domestic to support our economy.

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## chip anderson

GM and Ford make a lot of cars in Canada.  Some of them for unfantomable reasons are postive ground.  Had a mechanic friend who claimed to have worked on a Canadian Model A.
Don't you Cannucks know that someday The US, Brittian and Canada will be in battle with most of Asia.  Support for each  other will give us a better chance in the end.


Chip

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## For-Life

> GM and Ford make a lot of cars in Canada. Some of them for unfantomable reasons are postive ground. Had a mechanic friend who claimed to have worked on a Canadian Model A.
> Don't you Cannucks know that someday The US, Brittian and Canada will be in battle with most of Asia. Support for each other will give us a better chance in the end.
> 
> 
> Chip


Yes and Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make a lot of cars in Canada.  Those three companies are expanding here and offer new possibilities for my struggling area.

As for supporting each other, yes there is the necessity of that, however, the Canadian and American sides have been struggling as of late on the whole trade situation.  I can, but will not play the blame game.  This has caused great bitterness.

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## chm2023

Just bought a Prius for our daughter, haven't even picked it up yet.  I think it's rather ugly to be honest but like the idea of supporting car manufacturers who are attempting to address the fossil fuel jones.  I see this generation of hybrids as the beginning of this process.

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## k12311997

> What brand could a Canadian buy that _wouldn't_ be an "import"?


I second that. it seems most industrial nations have at least one domestic auto maker why doesn't Canada?

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## Framebender

For-Life turned me on to Sleemans Honey Brown. . .an excellent beer!!  Who cares about cars anyway??  There's enough brands available.  A good beer though, now that's art!!
:cheers: :D :cheers:

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## fjpod

I heard Coloradans are working on a car tht runs on beer.  True?

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## Framebender

Why yes Doc we are, but only if we can get it to run on that tasteless stuff Coors puts out. . .not real beer!!  Good beer we put in our own tank!!

:cheers:

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## For-Life

> I second that. it seems most industrial nations have at least one domestic auto maker why doesn't Canada?


Just not an industry we ever got into.  I think it would be a very difficult industry to get into at this point.  Expensive, lack of experience, cannot get the materials for the same price, expensive work (with our health care our costs for that are lower than the US, but the rest of the work is more expensive), and why would anyone want to buy it?

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## Snitgirl

> Lets see now, you do not want to put foreign petroleum products into a fuel tank that was made in the Bombay out of steel made in China into your Japanese auto which was made in Singapore and shipped to the Port of Los Angeles on a Panamanian ship to be unloaded by wet backs.
> 
> OK, you can either look for a good wood burner made in Vermont or buy your fuel from Citgo as the majority of their product line is domestic. You might also want to look up Willie Nelson. You might also want to be very thankful that so few vehicles are hybrids.
> 
> Sorry, just an attack of sarcasm. Your stated goal of using less foreign oil will best be served by hammering your elected pecker heads in Washington and Albany into removing the restrictions on the domestic exploration and wellheading of petroleum and the construction of new refineries, particularly in New England. And, remember, you aint just talking about gasoline here  dont forget fuel oil. While you are at it, see if you can get these bozos to remove some of the regulatory requirements that, while well meaning, have actually contributed the unintended consequence of high fuel prices.
> 
> But, not to worry. Science and engineering will work out the solution. Legislation will screw it up. Some things never change.


Dick, sorry but wet back comments are really not necessary!!!!:finger:

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## RT

FJPOD:  I've had a Ford Escape Hybrid for almost a year now.  I'd highly recommend it, but understand that it's not a magic bullet for huge gas savings.  Based on experience, if you drive in a semi-intelligent manner, you can expect 29-30 MPG day in and day out (combination of highway and city driving).  Not bad for a small SUV, and far better than the gas version.  Drive it a little carelessly, take 2 MPG off that.  Drive like a redneck teenager, take 4 MPG off that.  As with any car, jackrabbit starts and stops, lots of quick trips, and a lead foot on the highway will detract from your mileage.  Cold weather also has a negative effect on mileage.  

The best feature on the car is the instantaneous MPG graph if you get the fancy hybrid display.  I highly recommend getting that, as it gives you the best feedback as to how your driving habits affect your mileage.  You'll find yourself quickly modifying your habits to get a "high score"--too bad you can't put in your initials when you do!

The most interesting part of the Escape Hybrid is the ECVT (Electronically Continuous Variable Transmission).  It makes this the smoothest vehicle I've ever driven.  I recently rented the gas version of the Escape, and found the regular automatic transmission to be clumsy in comparison.

RBAKER:  Citgo is a Venezuelan company.  And, um, no thanks, but I won't be writing to my local peckerhead for more New England refineries.  That won't do any good when the billions of Chinese and Indian people that we're introducing to consumerism decide they want gas to put into those Fords and Chevy's that we're trying to sell them.  Supply and demand--it used to be only US demand, but that's a thing of the past.

The real problem isn't that gas costs too much now, it's that it cost too little "back then".  Milk is more expensive than gas, and we don't have to ship it in from halfway across the world.  And we'll never run out of milk.  Calculate the cost per gallon of Poland Spring water.  Gas is a bargain.

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## AWTECH

The Hybird sounds like a good idea until you consider the upfront cost vs conventional engine price and the real unknowns are long term service availability and battery replacement costs.

Can you imagine when a Hybird is 8 to 10 years old and a similar gas only is the same age and valve of the gas only is $3,000.  How much is a hybird going to be worth that need about $3,000 worth of batteries.

Just my perspective on the main topic.

Regarding foreign companies:  Todays autos are parts sourced in so many different countries that the only know facts are the GM net profit dollars (or lossed $) go to GM and the Toyota net profit Yen goes to the home country of Japan.  As far as manufacturing the cars some Toyotas are more american made than some Fords or GM autos.

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## fjpod

> I have the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. Gets great gas mileage, the price was reasonable and it still has good power. I love it! Went from filling my tank every 2 weeks or less to an average of 3 weeks. Recently drove from Portland OR to basically the Canadian border and back on a tank of gas.


I've heard the Hyundai is a good price for what you get.

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## rbaker

> I have the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. Gets great gas mileage, the price was reasonable and it still has good power. I love it! Went from filling my tank every 2 weeks or less to an average of 3 weeks. Recently drove from Portland OR to basically the Canadian border and back on a tank of gas.


The battery in the Sonata Hybrid is a lithium polymer battery different from that used in the Prius and other hybrids and definitly a superior technology. In addition the Sonata Hybrid has about 100 more horsepower than the Prius along with a lot more interior room. 

BTW, when I drive from Gold Hill, OR to Portland, OR I burn a tank of gas. I usually visit my local gas station twice a week!

I proudly support big oil. I get a Christmas Card from Chevron and you dont.

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## fjpod

> The battery in the Sonata Hybrid is a lithium polymer battery different from that used in the Prius and other hybrids and definitly a superior technology. In addition the Sonata Hybrid has about 100 more horsepower than the Prius along with a lot more interior room. 
> 
> BTW, when I drive from Gold Hill, OR to Portland, OR I burn a tank of gas. I usually visit my local gas station twice a week!
> 
> I proudly support big oil. I get a Christmas Card from Chevron and you dont.


How 'bout the Christmas card we got from al Quaida on Sept 11?  Still wanna use their oil?

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## MasterCrafter

> How 'bout the Christmas card we got from al Quaida on Sept 11? Still wanna use their oil?


The thing is we do not need to get oil from there. We have more oil here in the states than all of the middle east. With the recent findings in North and South Dakota, and all the shale out west. We have enough oil here to take care of our needs and have enough to export. 

Then Brazil has huge reserves of oil. So right now the focus should be on North and South America. We do not need middle east oil.

With that said we could use this oil and continue our quest for alternative sources of energy. I'm not talking about electric either. Electricity has to come from somewhere. Our electrical infostructure could not handle everybody charging thier cars all the time. The electrical grid is already over capacitated.

Natural Gas Vehicles

The time is now

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## fjpod

The power grid can handle car charging if done at night.  In fact, excess power and generating capacity get wasted at night.  EVs are not for long distance driving.  Right now, they are for errands around town, but even so, that is about 80% of my driving.  Even I will admit that some use of ICEs will be necessary for some time to come.

I forget the exact statistic, but burning oil in one power plant to produce more electricity for EVs is still more efficient and less polluting than burning it in 100,000 (or some ridiculous number) of cars.

Natural gas technology has been around for decades but it doesn't catch on...partly because the tanks necessary to run a car are huge and partly because there is no "ready-to-go" gas up infrastructure.

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## jmainwar

I would love to be able to get an EV to zip around town and for SHORT excursions, they just make sense. I drove a 4th gen prius for a couple of years and felt like a tin can.  The fit and finish was poor and it was loud at highway speed.  My old TDI jetta on the other hand was a dream, quiet and powerful. Took a new prius out about a year ago and was quite impressed, but not there yet. I'd be happy if the wife would let us trade in the TDI beetle for the new Subaru imprezas XT.

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## fjpod

> I would love to be able to get an EV to zip around town and for SHORT excursions, they just make sense. I drove a 4th gen prius for a couple of years and felt like a tin can.  The fit and finish was poor and it was loud at highway speed.  My old TDI jetta on the other hand was a dream, quiet and powerful. Took a new prius out about a year ago and was quite impressed, but not there yet. I'd be happy if the wife would let us trade in the TDI beetle for the new Subaru imprezas XT.


Couple of things... 
1.  If you are looking for a short excursion, reasonably priced EV, look into the Mitsubishi imiev.
2.  There is no 4th generation Prius.  Gen 3 came out in 2010, so I'm not sure how you could have driven one for a few years several years ago.  The closest thing to a 4th generation  Prius is perhaps the new plug in version, or the wagon, or the C model, but these are built on the Gen 3 platform.  
3.  Noise?  The gen 3 is one of the quietest cars I have ever owned, even at highway speeds.  In the city, the ICE is off half the time.  Is a Prius really noisier than a diesel???  I call BS on this one.  Maybe you have noisy tires.
4.  Fit and finish...much better than a corolla, about the same as a Camry.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
5.  Power...it's designed to get 50 mpg, all day long.  It's not a race car.  Your diesel cannot get the same mileage in city driving.  

We won't even talk about the tailpipe emissions....

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## jmainwar

EV's and hybrids are where it is at for city commuting, ICE's are not meant to be driven less than 7 miles from a cold start.  They are just starting to evolve to meet the needs of longer range commuting.
Might have been wrong on the Prius gen then, I drove it new between 2008 and 2010, just before the latest generation.  All I can say is that I preferred my VW, the prius was to loud and drove like a golf cart, one could manage the snow and rain only with the traction control off and snow tires, several scarry momments when the TC kicked in stalling the car out in cross traffic.  I put about 60k on it.  During this same time there was a Lexus rx400h in the fleet, a blast to drive, but one couldn't get more that 23 out of it.  It's not just about power, modern cars are vastly overpowered.  Add in safety, comfort, and reliability.
Driving, to me, is very much about the experience and comfort.  I have a Range Rover that is very dear to me even with the horrendous fuel mileage.  It's safe and very comfy but I would do anything to get a diesel LR4 to replace it.  The tdi's are heavy cars with ample insulation, drive like they are on rails and when I take my time I can get an honest 50 mpg from them.  And it's usually the tire noise interacting with the pavement, never hear the engine after initial start-up.  Now the old cummins powered dodge will rattle your fillings out and cause deafness, but that is purpose built.
I don't mean to bash on hybrids, they have come a long ways.  I was cruising through the local Toyota and Chrysler dealership to get a feel for the new Grand Cherokee coming out, which is still no match for a 10 year old rover.  While there I passed the new Avalon hybrid and it was a gorgeous car that will need a future evaluation. 
Emissions are very small player in the game, I take a look at the overall picture and really strive to recycle and reuse things. Being able to understand and work on my cars is the goal in anything I own.  I would love to run bio-diesel, but I don't have the resources at the moment to do so.

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## rbaker

While not specifically addressing the hybrid the following article from the IEEE Specrum might give you some interesting information.

_Unclean at Any Speed_*Electric cars don’t solve the automobile’s environmental problems

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/rene...n-at-any-speed*

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## fjpod

So the author built an electric car himself once...that makes him an energy/environmental expert?  The article has no scientific facts in it.  It's all one man's opinion.  And I guess because he picked a clever name for the article, after Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at any speed", that makes the article credible.

He's right about one thing though, that walking, biking and mass transportation are less polluting than using electric cars.

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## rbaker

You are indeed entitled to your opinion. 

The IEEE _Spectrum_ is a peer reviewed journal of the Institute of Electrical Electronics Engineers. My guess is that the article is about as credible as any article appearing in _Optometry - Journal of the American Optometric Association._

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## fjpod

Him citing that he doesn't think a safe EV can be manufactured because he tried to do it once himself is totally unscientific.  His statement about rare earth elements in electric motors is wrong, yada, yada, yada.  The article was obviously written with political motives, and for opinion expression, not scientific ones.  You're just drinking the Kool-Aid...

I don't find it necessary to jab opticianry because you took one at optometry, in a thread that has nothing to do with either profession.  I'll just consider the source and let that one slide.

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## optilady1

I want a hybrid mini van.

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## jmainwar

> I want a hybrid mini van.


I would give most anything for one of these:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...-bulli-concept

although there are plenty of early VW mircobuses around here to retrofit.

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## fjpod

This was taken from a member of IEEE..."I am also an electrical engineer and a member of the IEEE and I am not sure why the IEEE would publish this uneducated article?  The author, Ozzie Zehner, is a sociologist who is making a profit by making unsupported and misleading claims about alternative energy.  I am disappointed that the IEEE would publish opinion that is not based on facts."

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## vcom

I remember seeing something (years ago) about GM making a fuel cell platform they dubbed "The Skateboard".  Looked just like it sounded.  4 independently powered wheels on a maybe 18 inch thick frame thingy with the fuel cells in it.  Coolest thing in my opinion, was it allowed for a completely modular body concept.  So you could get a sedan, a van, a pick-up, or even a custom made classic body if you wanted, all bolted on to the same fuel cell platform.  That seems like a pretty sweet idea to me, simply because the style of hybrids/electrics have really been lacking.  There is a quote from the film "The Other Guys" that pretty much sums it up for me.  I won't repeat it, but some of you know what I'm talking about.

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## fjpod

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=30879

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## rbaker

Get em while their hot!

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...026/1148/rss25

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## Johns

I hit a smart car today.  The car was totaled, but don't worry...my bicycle's fine!





(not really, but I couldn't resist)

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## fjpod

I drove leisurely along the shore today for a few hours, got 62 mpg, passed all the bicycles...real deal.

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## fjpod

http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/

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## braheem24

It's been 2 years, Anyone get a Tesla?

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## Johns

> It's been 2 years, Anyone get a Tesla?


No, but my wife put a down payment on an Elio.  (You won't catch me in it!)

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## braheem24

ooh, that's a trike in reverse with some fiberglass.  :Eek:

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## rinselberg

Hey y'all. First time I have posted anything in awhile. I wonder if anyone that is onboard here has a VW diesel that is going to be subject to the smog emissions-related recalls. Not me, I'm happy to say. I wonder if at the end of the line, VW may actually have to install complete new engines and maybe even transmissions in some of the older model vehicles that are expected to be subject to recall. I guess that can't happen, though. Would DOT just have it so that VW will be able to offer the owners of any of the older model vehicles a buyback or buyout option? So many unknowns at this early juncture.

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## fjpod

I can't see a solution to the VW episode.  I don't see how they can uninstall and reinstall anything short of a different engine that would actually comply with standards...which just isn't a practical thing.  I'll bet some owners won't go in for the "repair" and VW will just have to pay a fine, not only for the cars that were made fraudulently from the get-go, but another penalty on the cars that remain "unfixed".  

Meanwhile...I'm cruising along in my 2010 Prius, getting an average of 53 mpg...love this car, regardless of the price of gas.

Although I also own a fully battery electric car (Mitsubishi iMiev), I am not a fan of Tesla.  Sure, its a great sexy, technologically advanced piece of machinery, but I wouldn't pay a plug nickel for it.  In order to get that power and range, it has WAYYYYYY too many batteries.

Couple of problems with this car (IMHO)...1.  When you plug it in you need a small power plant to charge it up in any reasonable period of time...not just a small re-wiring job at home.  It's a big job.   2. Most of the time, people only travel short distances, say, less than 60 miles per day.  It makes no sense to carry a couple thousand pounds of batteries for a 200 mile range (which really isn't if you use heat or AC or carry passengers and luggage).  3.  So they say there is a network of Tesla charging stations in certain parts of the country, and it is a long distance car...but you might have to drive several hundred miles out of your way to get to one of these stations.  In spite of all it's wiz-bang technology....it's just not a practical car.

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## fjpod

I can't see a solution to the VW episode.  I don't see how they can uninstall and reinstall anything short of a different engine that would actually comply with standards...which just isn't a practical thing.  I'll bet some owners won't go in for the "repair" and VW will just have to pay a fine, not only for the cars that were made fraudulently from the get-go, but another penalty on the cars that remain "unfixed".  

 Meanwhile...I'm cruising along in my 2010 Prius, getting an average of 53 mpg...love this car, regardless of the price of gas.

 Although I also own a fully battery electric car (Mitsubishi iMiev), I am not a fan of Tesla.  Sure, its a great sexy, technologically advanced piece of machinery, but I wouldn't pay a plug nickel for it.  In order to get that power and range, it has WAYYYYYY too many batteries, and WAYYYY too costly.

 Couple of problems with this car (IMHO)...1.  When you plug it in you need a small power plant to charge it up in any reasonable period of time...not just a small re-wiring job at home.  It's a big job.   2. Most of the time, people only travel short distances, say, less than 60 miles per day.  It makes no sense to carry a couple thousand pounds of batteries for a 200 mile range (which really isn't if you use heat or AC or carry passengers and luggage).  3.  So they say there is a network of Tesla charging stations in certain parts of the country, and it is a long distance car...but you might have to drive several hundred miles out of your way to get to one of these stations.  In spite of all it's wiz-bang technology....it's just not a practical car.

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## braheem24

VW/Audi has announced plans for electric cars to salvage some reputation

http://qz.com/505647/audi-is-going-a...ic-car-market/

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## braheem24

> I am not a fan of Tesla.  Sure, its a great sexy, technologically advanced piece of machinery, but I wouldn't pay a plug nickel for it.  In order to get that power and range, it has WAYYYYYY too many batteries, and WAYYYY too costly.
> 
>  Couple of problems with this car (IMHO)...1.  When you plug it in you need a small power plant to charge it up in any reasonable period of time...not just a small re-wiring job at home.  It's a big job.   2. Most of the time, people only travel short distances, say, less than 60 miles per day.  It makes no sense to carry a couple thousand pounds of batteries for a 200 mile range (which really isn't if you use heat or AC or carry passengers and luggage).  3.  So they say there is a network of Tesla charging stations in certain parts of the country, and it is a long distance car...but you might have to drive several hundred miles out of your way to get to one of these stations.  In spite of all it's wiz-bang technology....it's just not a practical car.


 They made a Tesla with a 40,60 and 85KW battery, 40 and 60 have been discontinued and replaced with 70 and 90KW as the new standard.

 The house power requirements are 110V or an electric dryer outlet.  110V 15amp charges at 8MPH while the electric dryer outlet charges at 29MPH.  They have an optional $750 High Power wall charger (Cost me $180 to install) that charges at 60MPH.

 I drive 100 miles per day, it would be impractical for me to have no reserve if I decide to not go straight home.

 The travel chargers charge at 400MPH where a 30 minute stop will get you 180 Miles of charge.

 All chargers are at an exit off a major highway, 90% of the time you do not have to travel any further then a typical gas station to find one. 

 In Florida, there is a charger 1 hour away from my house in every direction.  I can travel the united states without planning unless I'm going to Arkansas, Mississippi, West Texas, Wyoming and Nebraska.

Map of the charger locations:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

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## fjpod

Sounds like the right thing for you.  Different strokes for different folks.  At least we're out there looking for alternatives.

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## Boxpea

> Sounds like the right thing for you.  Different strokes for different folks.  At least we're out there looking for alternatives.


agreed

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