# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  conventional vs digital progressives

## prem

there is so much hype about the digital lenses , and though its understood that these digital lenses have better precision in terms of prescription, whats else can we say as the  difference between conventional and digital progressives?

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## SailorEd

Just want to know.  Are you talking about conventional progressives that are digitally surfaced or are you talking about free form progressives?  If you are talking about free form, this link may help you understand ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1mi_c33Qmo

ON EDIT:  I'm not trying to promote any lens but this video is good at showing the difference between any free form progressive and conventional progressives.  Everyone has their preferences.

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## James Handgrinder

It seems to be better , how much? alot on some and no difference on the rest? not sure, just didn't hear " wow" as the video claims ( it is not just in my office, quite a few stores I know are about the same).

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## Rob Brown

> It seems to be better , how much? alot on some and no difference on the rest? not sure, just didn't hear " wow" as the video claims ( it is not just in my office, quite a few stores I know are about the same).


There are many differences between designs. Although a digitally surfaced conventional is an improvement, the design remains the same and most likely will not provide the 'WOW' factor. A verified free-form design is a night and day difference vs. conventional since many additional parameters are taken into consideration resulting in a truly customized lens. 

In fact, one of my customers recently called me right after a visually challenged high myopic patient picked up her very first FF pair to tell me the patient literally cried when she put them on (no BS). Now, this is certainly not status quo, but my point is when the proper, detailed information and time is obtained from the patient, improved results will happen.

Lastly, if you're fitting a house brand or private label FF, ask your supplier to prove what exactly their design is based on - they should have no problem telling you and is easy to confirm.  If they can't provide this, I would certainly be concerned about its quality and authenticity.

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## Opticianjw

If you are planning on selling free from digital lenses and not provide the additional measurements such as face form, rear vertex distance and panto angle, then the patient will not be getting the true benefit of a personalized progressive lens. If default numbers are used and they differ from the measurements the patient requires then all that technology, time and money will not give that patient the wow factor he or she might be expecting. We as eye care providers should not be charging digital pricing and offering these highly specialized lenses and expect perfect visual acuity with giving the same measurements as with traditional progressive lenses. If you want to sell these lenses then you need to purchase a digital measuring system. I own and use the Opikam and the measurements are precise and would recommend it to anyone interested in selling digital lenses.

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## Rob Brown

> If you are planning on selling free from digital lenses and not provide the additional measurements such as face form, rear vertex distance and panto angle, then the patient will not be getting the true benefit of a personalized progressive lens. If default numbers are used and they differ from the measurements the patient requires then all that technology, time and money will not give that patient the wow factor he or she might be expecting. We as eye care providers should not be charging digital pricing and offering these highly specialized lenses and expect perfect visual acuity with giving the same measurements as with traditional progressive lenses. If you want to sell these lenses then you need to purchase a digital measuring system. I own and use the Opikam and the measurements are precise and would recommend it to anyone interested in selling digital lenses.


Bingo!!  The Optikam system is an excellent choice and the most economical system at around $8K.  Provides an extremely accurate yet enjoyable one-on-one interactive dispensing experience for your patient/customer and a strategic way to stand far and above your competition in both service and technology.

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## James Handgrinder

> There are many differences between designs. Although a digitally surfaced conventional is an improvement, the design remains the same and most likely will not provide the 'WOW' factor. A verified free-form design is a night and day difference vs. conventional since many additional parameters are taken into consideration resulting in a truly customized lens. 
> 
> In fact, one of my customers recently called me right after a visually challenged high myopic patient picked up her very first FF pair to tell me the patient literally cried when she put them on (no BS). Now, this is certainly not status quo, but my point is when the proper, detailed information and time is obtained from the patient, improved results will happen.
> 
> Lastly, if you're fitting a house brand or private label FF, ask your supplier to prove what exactly their design is based on - they should have no problem telling you and is easy to confirm. If they can't provide this, I would certainly be concerned about its quality and authenticity.


I agree with you, and believe your case 100%; 
Provided they design is very good, with proper fitting on some Rx, it is not hard to hear "wow"; but the problem is all freeform lenses ( some are better than others) are overall called the " high definination lenses/ digital tv vs analoge etc", the most heard word is "individual", " freeform" or even " digital"?? not much comparison of a particular design vs others. I guess it is a very good strategy for manufactures not to compare with competitors, but as for opticians we really want to know it.

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## Rob Brown

> I agree with you, and believe your case 100%; 
> Provided they design is very good, with proper fitting on some Rx, it is not hard to hear "wow"; but the problem is all freeform lenses ( some are better than others) are overall called the " high definination lenses/ digital tv vs analoge etc", the most heard word is "individual", " freeform" or even " digital"?? not much comparison of a particular design vs others. I guess it is a very good strategy for manufactures not to compare with competitors, but as for opticians we really want to know it.


Be careful of each manufacturer's marketing analogies and spin they will place on their product when comparing to others.

The bottom line is, if it is truly a FF product, other than some small discrepancies between products, they are all pretty darn good.

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## eyes4u

I wear the Essilor Physio Enhanced with the Sapphire non glare in a Silhouette drill mount and they are by far the most awesome lenses I have ever had! I used to be a -10 and - 8 with 8 diopters of compound cyl,have had lasik and now I'm a -2.50 and - 1.00 still with 8 diopters of compound prism. I highly recommend it!

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## sharpstick777

> If you are planning on selling free from digital lenses and not provide the additional measurements such as face form, rear vertex distance and panto angle, then the patient will not be getting the true benefit of a personalized progressive lens. If default numbers are used and they differ from the measurements the patient requires then all that technology,


If you boil the numbers down using Opticampus calculators, you will find that only 20% of your patients have an RX that will benefit measurably from Face form, Vertex or Panto numbers from the defaults.  

Most of the value is found not in the custom measurments, but in the physics of a backside add progressive lens that has Free-form optimizations, digital processing and reduced total distortion from an add on the backside (in myopes and low power hyperopes).  After digital processing, The free-form optimizations that are foundational are compensated base curves for "best form" optics, and atoric cyl curves.  These improve binocular symmetry, which in turn makes the lens "wider".  The backside add reduces total potential distortion.  All these happen in backside add FF without detailed measurments.

Detailed measurements only begin to have a measureable effect at powers over a -4.00, +2.00, or where the patients wearing position differs significantly from the norm (patient likes wearing their frame on their eyelids, or down their nose).

The compensated numbers for Vertex, Panto or Faceform are standardized, there is no secret sauce or magic involved.  If I need these for a lens in a low power standard patient to make a difference, its the sign of a bad lens design not a good one.

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## sharpstick777

> Bingo!! The Optikam system is an excellent choice and the most economical system at around $8K. Provides an extremely accurate yet enjoyable one-on-one interactive dispensing experience for your patient/customer and a strategic way to stand far and above your competition in both service and technology.


Everyone I have seen who bought one uses it for 4 months, then it becomes an expensive paper weight.  Is it difficult to use or are people not seeing the value they should?

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## sharpstick777

RE:  The Wow Factor

There is some conversation on why some patients find, and other patients don't find, the WOW factor.

One of the keys is Best or True form Optics.  In standard grinders they usually come in only 5-7 base curves.  That means only 5-7 RX's out of hundreds are getting their best optics.  But some people are close.  We don't have Base Curve charts in our dispensary so we have no real idea.    If the person is far from their Best Form base curve, then they are more likely to have a WOW experience.  If they are close, then maybe not.

Not all Free-form lenses are pure Free-form.  Essilor and Hoya usess some Hybrid designs (Distance FF, Intermediate and Reading Molded on Front) that have very mixed results.  Some people love them, some hate them.  Many companies site thier digital molds, but those are not free-form either.  It has to have an entire backside add power to be 100% pure free-form to get the full benifit of digital process and FF physics. 

Among 100% Pure FF lenses there is a tremendous variety of design emphasis, and these have to be matched to the patients lifestyle.  For example the Autograph II has about 10X improvement in distance clarity than the Comfort, but can actually be narrower in the reading and intermediate, especially in Hyperopes. So if my patient Mrs Jones reads a lot, she may see only that her new Auto II is narrower than her Comforts, and be dissappointed.  There are FF lenses that have 4X the reading of the Comfort, so for her to see the WOW factor, I would have to use one of those lenses.
Another example on the Auto II is that it does not use Corridor enhancements based on RX, so Hyperopes (who require a different corridor) often don't like this lens.  Using a Surmount in Hyperopes will draw a WOW factor many times as it changes the corridor based on RX.

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## Robert Martellaro

> there is so much hype about the digital lenses , and though its understood that these digital lenses have better precision in terms of prescription, whats else can we say as the difference between conventional and digital progressives?


Hope this helps...

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...l=1#post129870

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## Barry Santini

> RE: The Wow Factor
> 
> There is some conversation on why some patients find, and other patients don't find, the WOW factor.
> 
> One of the keys is Best or True form Optics. In standard grinders they usually come in only 5-7 base curves. That means only 5-7 RX's out of hundreds are getting their best optics. But some people are close. We don't have Base Curve charts in our dispensary so we have no real idea. If the person is far from their Best Form base curve, then they are more likely to have a WOW experience. If they are close, then maybe not.
> 
> Not all Free-form lenses are pure Free-form. Essilor and Hoya usess some Hybrid designs (Distance FF, Intermediate and Reading Molded on Front) that have very mixed results. Some people love them, some hate them. Many companies site thier digital molds, but those are not free-form either. It has to have an entire backside add power to be 100% pure free-form to get the full benifit of digital process and FF physics. 
> 
> Among 100% Pure FF lenses there is a tremendous variety of design emphasis, and these have to be matched to the patients lifestyle. For example the Autograph II has about 10X improvement in distance clarity than the Comfort, but can actually be narrower in the reading and intermediate, especially in Hyperopes. So if my patient Mrs Jones reads a lot, she may see only that her new Auto II is narrower than her Comforts, and be dissappointed. There are FF lenses that have 4X the reading of the Comfort, so for her to see the WOW factor, I would have to use one of those lenses.
> Another example on the Auto II is that it does not use Corridor enhancements based on RX, so Hyperopes (who require a different corridor) often don't like this lens. Using a Surmount in Hyperopes will draw a WOW factor many times as it changes the corridor based on RX.


Good stuff! What design has 4x the reading width of Comfort, he asked?

B

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