# Optical Forums > Ophthalmic Optics >  Davis Vision lab messing up thickness!!

## jcasowder

I have a patient that wears a +6.50 and she's in 1.67 high index.  they keep sending the glasses with the thinnest point on the edge 2.7mm.  They argued with me that they can't get the lens any thinner.  :angry:  Are they insane?  I ran a lab for 7 years and KNOW it can be thinner!!!  They're just lazy and cheap.  Then they had the nerve to tell me they can't do it because it's over 30 days (it's been 5 weeks since the initial order).  They have done the lenses 3 times!!!!  Is it me?  Did labs change so much in the past 8 years since I surfaced that a 1.6 or 1.8 edge thickness is not possible?  I may be blonde, but I know it can be done.  (and I know it's the thinnest point that needs to be measured)

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## Barry Santini

Davis :Labs?
Messing up?!?!

Can't be!  They're "Colts Certified" and vetted for quality, apparently by the best independent body there is in our field...

...or is it?

Barry

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## renee1111

> I have a patient that wears a +6.50 and she's in 1.67 high index.  they keep sending the glasses with the thinnest point on the edge 2.7mm.  They argued with me that they can't get the lens any thinner.  :angry:  Are they insane?  I ran a lab for 7 years and KNOW it can be thinner!!!  They're just lazy and cheap.  Then they had the nerve to tell me they can't do it because it's over 30 days (it's been 5 weeks since the initial order).  They have done the lenses 3 times!!!!  Is it me?  Did labs change so much in the past 8 years since I surfaced that a 1.6 or 1.8 edge thickness is not possible?  I may be blonde, but I know it can be done.  (and I know it's the thinnest point that needs to be measured)


Yes, of course it can still be done, providing it's a full rimed frame.  They should be able to grind it to knife edge.

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## DestinieNicole

> I have a patient that wears a +6.50 and she's in 1.67 high index.  they keep sending the glasses with the thinnest point on the edge 2.7mm.  They argued with me that they can't get the lens any thinner.  :angry:  Are they insane?  I ran a lab for 7 years and KNOW it can be thinner!!!  They're just lazy and cheap.  Then they had the nerve to tell me they can't do it because it's over 30 days (it's been 5 weeks since the initial order).  They have done the lenses 3 times!!!!  Is it me?  Did labs change so much in the past 8 years since I surfaced that a 1.6 or 1.8 edge thickness is not possible?  I may be blonde, but I know it can be done.  (and I know it's the thinnest point that needs to be measured)


Wow are you me writing this?   I am having the exact same problem.  Not only did they send me horribly thick horribly disgusting lenses, but they absolutely destroyed my frame.  I have no idea where to go from here but there is NO WAY I am dispensing these lenses to my patient!  I have sent the job back twice with a detailed letter on why the job was unacceptable, they promptly sent me one back that said this job meets ansi standards.  Gues what? It does not meet my standards!  It doesn't meet anyone's standards!

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## Craig

I previously wrote a letter to Davis Vision as a favor to child who had very poor vision and could only afford the Davis job.  I gave her a free pair to prove that done correctly the child could see well and then pointed out on my letterhead everything that was wrong with the glasses.  They were not even close to being accurate.

They finally did them and got it decent after 5-6 tries and some very nasty conversations!

I am confused?  What purpose is served by paying for insurance which only serve to add to the overall cost of providing quality care.

Craig

I am so glad we do not take insurance.

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## Fezz

The real shame of this is:

It doesn't matter how many times that you explain to the patient that it is *THEIR* insurance company making the glasses and that you have no control over it, they never *GET IT*.

You are responsible, your office failed them, you *B*L*O*W*, you are incompetent, you dropped the ball, you are making excuses, you are, you are, you are.........................................................  .......!

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## orangezero

For all the consumers reading this, this is why human resource departments at your employer should not be making decisions about where you get your vision care and eyewear.

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## Fezz

> For all the consumers reading this, this is why human resource departments at your employer should not be making decisions about where you get your vision care and eyewear.


 

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## jcasowder

> Wow are you me writing this? I am having the exact same problem. Not only did they send me horribly thick horribly disgusting lenses, but they absolutely destroyed my frame. I have no idea where to go from here but there is NO WAY I am dispensing these lenses to my patient! I have sent the job back twice with a detailed letter on why the job was unacceptable, they promptly sent me one back that said this job meets ansi standards. Gues what? It does not meet my standards! It doesn't meet anyone's standards!


 
Yes, I'm you and venting was needed.  So, when you were not looking I posted this to suprise you!

The guy I had talked to at Davis shut up real fast when I told him that I surfaced lenses for 7 years, and I KNOW how think they should be, and how they could have done it with one pair of UNCUT I sent back by reblocking running it like I told him.  That would have saved them money and time if they had someone in the lab that knew how to do it.:hammer:

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## DestinieNicole

SO what came of that job?  I have an extremely upset elderly man that is in desperate need of his glasses!  Did Davis finally correct the job?

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## jcasowder

> SO what came of that job? I have an extremely upset elderly man that is in desperate need of his glasses! Did Davis finally correct the job?


 
It's en route as we speak (or type :D) to the lab.  They said they "would review the order and call".  They better redo the lenses or there's going to be one crazy white chick gettin' all up in their grill!!!  

What's going on with the elderly man's glasses?

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## Jubilee

which lab are you dealing with of theirs?

We have had some "issues" with them over the years, and got them all resolved. Sometimes it was a matter of having words with the lab manager, and other times we took a two prong approach. We not only would call and work it over with the managers, but we also would ask the patient to call and express their concers to Quality Assurance. The phone call to QA and letting the patient hear from the reps themselves let's them know that 1) yep.. Davis is the one who is the hold up 2) when "members" are upset compared to providers, options become available that maybe weren't offered before.

My favorite though is when a high ranking exec had issues, 2 months later still not corrected. He not only got them to pay to have our local lab process the order, but every year since.. whenever we authorize him or a family member, we get a call asking us when the visit is.. and after delivery if they meet standards. That was 4 years ago..and yes, they called me this week when his wife came in :D

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## sharonseyes

Years ago we were dealing with Davis Vision. After way too many complaints and non compliant jobs, we had to stop accepting that insurance. We have never had a lab do so poorly and their customer service employees couldn't seem to get anything done either. I have never regretted that decision.  It seems from all these posts that Davis Vison still can't do a quality pair of glassees.

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## DestinieNicole

> It's en route as we speak (or type :D) to the lab.  They said they "would review the order and call".  They better redo the lenses or there's going to be one crazy white chick gettin' all up in their grill!!!  
> 
> What's going on with the elderly man's glasses?



Twice I sent it back, and they "reviewed" it and said the job was fine.  I know I shouldn't have to do this but I sent it to our lab to be done, we have to eat it, in the meanwhile though I'm fighting to get Davis to refund the job.  This patient has been coming to this practice long before the optical was ever here as well as his children and his childrens, children, and they all wear glasses.  I hate to bite it, but they have been great patients with lovely attitudes and have not blamed us once for all this.  The elderly man's son has made numerous phone calls to Davis as well as his fathers main medical insurance.  So that's where it stands.  Funny that I only have problems with lenses that need to be cut for our own frames, but never have these problems with a "Davis" frame.

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## RT

> Funny that I only have problems with lenses that need to be cut for our own frames, but never have these problems with a "Davis" frame.


If you're only having thickness problems on uncuts, it is undoubtedly because you're giving them bad frame trace data.

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## DestinieNicole

> If you're only having thickness problems on uncuts, it is undoubtedly because you're giving them bad frame trace data.


I wish it was that simple. Alas it is not,  I send the frame in as per Davis and they DESTROY them, even in very simple spherical prescriptions, in which case they not only mangle the frames, they edge the lenses too small.

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## jcasowder

> If you're only having thickness problems on uncuts, it is undoubtedly because you're giving them bad frame trace data.


They get the frame info from us.  In my case, it was a brand new frame off our board, and when I sent them the frame for the redo, they sent it back with thick lenses STILL!  There was no excuse for that, because they had the brand new frame (It's a LuLu Guinness by Tura) to get the proper info.  I gave them the measurements on the frame from the Tura catalog to ensure everything was correct.  Plain and simple, they have people working the lab that don't have much experience so they can keep pay and costs down.  If you learn too much, they make your work life difficult so you will look for employment elsewhere.  Worked for a lab like that at one point in my life.  They're an insurance company.  It's their job to ensure they pay as little out of pocket as possible.

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## eyemanflying

> For all the consumers reading this, this is why human resource departments at your employer should not be making decisions about where you get your vision care and eyewear.


There's very little control on top quality when the business is tendered to the lowest bidder to conform with the most stringent margins.

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## Crickett13

Many yearss ago when I was dispensing I called our davis lab and complained bitterly that they had to remake about a third of our orders. The response I got was that I was exagerating and they only showed a 28% redo rate on my account! :angry:

Nice to see some things never change.

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## DestinieNicole

> Many yearss ago when I was dispensing I called our davis lab and complained bitterly that they had to remake about a third of our orders. The response I got was that I was exagerating and they only showed a 28% redo rate on my account! :angry:
> 
> Nice to see some things never change.


 Even still how is it that they can justify a 28% redo rate? Like 28% is wonderful!!!!!!!!  They like to see the glass as half full I guess.

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## carnzo

DROP DAVIS VISION!!  it's that simple, or just had the patient $20.00 when they walk in.

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## Tpopticians

We fought to keep Davis out of our state. We kept some of the state employee but still lost a few plans to Davis. We simply don't accept Davis. They will not let me control quality by going to another lab if they don't do an acceptable job. Did I lose business? Yes I sure did. It just saved alot of headaches. Have I gotten some of it back over the last couple of years. Yes, my previous patients got tired of the Davis quality. 

Speaking on lens thickness. I have a lab I use that I have an excellent working relationship. With a full rimmed frame, they will surface for a temple edge thickness thats sub 1.5mm.

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## humbleABOCtx

I don't take Davis where I'm at but it sure sounds like you all are talking about Spectera lab....same prob.! 
Lots of QA prob's and even so bad we would have to fax and refax + refax the orders "they never received" ...the worst was when they admitted to everyone quitting at once and had no staff....then the staff they did get had NO expierence....to their own admission. 
This happened twice in 2-3 month period about 2 years ago +/-. So we dropped the spectacle benefit and take it for exam + CL only... ( I still hate waiting for them to supply CL though!)

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## Jeff Trail

The bad news, well interesting in a way, is Davis was correct.. it did meet all the ansi standards.. which does not cover "thickness" unless it is under Z87 ..only power/axis/prism/pd ... other than that you will see "use manufacturer recommended thickness" over and over....
   I can tell you exactly why your lens are so thick, they pulled a pair of stock finished lens and edged them for ya... pull out the calipers and cut your own stock finished lens and you will probably get that same edge thickness  :Eek: 

    Just because it filled the "letter of the law" still does not make it acceptable .. they can just use that law book, roll it up and smack you on top the head... just like house training a cat or dog...

Jeff " here kitty kitty...:hammer:" Trail

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## OpticianMaryland

There's no quality control, the product is ridiculous, they only allow certain products with certain plans, and i've had simple jobs take a month or more!

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## YrahG

> The real shame of this is:
> 
> It doesn't matter how many times that you explain to the patient that it is *THEIR* insurance company making the glasses and that you have no control over it, they never *GET IT*.
> 
> You are responsible, your office failed them, you *B*L*O*W*, you are incompetent, you dropped the ball, you are making excuses, you are, you are, you are.........................................................  .......!


That's because Davis has never been late in collecting their fees from patients paychecks not even once but the glasses you make always seem to come out wrong or take forever to make right.

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## Uilleann

Davis has got the be the absolute WORST.  4-6 month average turn times for us...horrid cosmetics...complete disconnect between the CS reps and the actual labs...mangled frames here too...complete refusal to own their mistakes...complete refusal to remake their mistakes...denial denial denial.

BOO DAVIS VISION!  BOO BOO BOO!!!:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

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## FVCCHRIS

> There's very little control on top quality when the business is tendered to the lowest bidder to conform with the most stringent margins.


Gosh Darn Right! OMG, just look at all the time wasted, the patient's total loss of confidence in you, because Fezz is right, you can talk lab-lab-lab all you want and the patient will blame you. And as Eyeman says-all because some penny pinching lab guy cares not about quality but only money, money, money! I have been in the same position myself. Besides competent lab staff working to please, you need(on plus orders) exact measurements of all dimensions, the frame itself or an exact tracing of it, and someone who knows where the edge of the usable blank will be. Supply the frame and request a knife edge grind and any decent lab can produce for you, and your patient, superior results. ;)

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## eyemanflying

> Gosh Darn Right! OMG, just look at all the time wasted, the patient's total loss of confidence in you, because Fezz is right, you can talk lab-lab-lab all you want and the patient will blame you. And as Eyeman says-all because some penny pinching lab guy cares not about quality but only money, money, money! I have been in the same position myself. Besides competent lab staff working to please, you need(on plus orders) exact measurements of all dimensions, the frame itself or an exact tracing of it, and someone who knows where the edge of the usable blank will be. Supply the frame and request a knife edge grind and any decent lab can produce for you, and your patient, superior results. ;)


 
In fact, all kids packages up to +4.00 are in stock!  And that nasty edge thickness of 6.0mm, that just makes it real safe! ;)

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## Bill West

Give the glasses to the customer and tell them they are not "perfect" but they are the best your insurance company can or will provide. Then tell them, if you have a problem complain in writing to your employer and Davis Vision. 
Inform them if they want topurchase a "first quality" pair you will be glad to make them.
I TAKE NO INSURANCE :cheers:

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## idispense

I must admit to being confused. It seems that you all agree this company is only interested in making profits for themselves , they willingly and consistently sacrifice quality and patient and customer relationships. Your reputation with your own customers is also sacrificed when you deal with this lab and vision care plan . It keeps coming back to bite you.


Now here is where I don't get it . Without you enabling this company , then they could not exist . So to make some meager profits you are signing up with them knowing full well what the risks are ? Why do you keep doing it ? Why do you do it at all ? 


Is the incremental revenue increase worth it ? What would happen if you had the job shipped directly from the lab to the patient ? Now the patient would see the lab address and know it came that way directly from the lab and not from you .  Now they coould walk the job into their human resources people and show them the quality .

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## rounded optician

Hate to admit it (or even remember it!) but I was briefly a manager at a Davis lab years ago. The upper management constantly pressures the labs on breakage and turn around time. Much of the work is inspected on Humphrey's auto lensometers. If you try hard enough you can get just about any reading you want with them!! Later after moving on from there back into retail I would NEVER send any frame to their lab that I considered at all valuable. I would just order uncuts and edge them myself. I have NEVER seen anyone use calipers to measure thickness. Remember their equipment is all computerized and based on the information input from the order takers. Be proactive, explain to every patient that the lenses will be made by their insurance company's lab, and it will take forever to get any difficult RX's. Return everything that is not up to your standards. Call the patient the first time it comes in wrong and tell them to call "quality assurance". Be specific, if you have a problem with surfacing talk to the surfacing manager, finishing, talk to the finishing manager. We just don't take insurances where I work now. For those that do, good luck, you'll need it!! :cry:

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## idispense

Put a display in your store of the glasses from the Davis lab as you recieved them out of the box. Beside those glasses also display the correctly made job and the price you would charge from a good quality lab . Also display the length of time it took to get the job. Now ask each insurance customer , which job they want . Have this choice documented with a tick off box on their receipt that they also initial.  Hand them the job when it comes in , no matter what it looks like . Photograph the job . Send it to Davis , the lab, and the human resources department of the customer. 

Your a$$ is now covered and you are educating the patient and human resources . You gave the customer his choice. Now that is the end of the matter . Any redo's they pay for themselves. Any arguments about what quality they received , you show them the tick off box on their receipt that they initialled and you let them deal direct with the lab and Davis.

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## Jalane

We've had many issues with quality with Davis and trying to talk to them is like trying to talk with a brick wall.  I have to remember that I am often not talking to a licensed optician when I call.  We have found that it is sometimes easier (although more paperwork) to do the job in-house, and bill Davis.

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