# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Why Senator Kerry is mistrusted by Vietnam era veterans

## johca

John F. Kerry did not become a military officer by enlisting; he became an officer by a commission in the Navy. He held a reserve commission from December 16, 1966 to February 16, 1978. Commissioned officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. Commissions are legal instruments the president uses to appoint and exercise direct control over qualified people to act as his legal agents and help him carry out his duties. The appointment to a commission has three requirements: The President or Service secretary must make the appointment; the military service must offer the appointment to the person, usually by giving the person a letter of appointment and an oath of office; and, the person must accept the appointment. Taking the oath of office is the most common method of accepting the appointment. Unlike draft that involuntarily inducts individuals into enlisted service, the military cannot force anyone to accept an appointment. If you have a service obligation and refuse an appointment, you must serve your obligated period as an enlisted person. John F. Kerry enlisted prior to accepting his appointment because he had incurred a service obligation perhaps because he was a military scholarship recipient or perhaps his number came up in the draft and he used an education option available to become an officer.

Although John Kerrys January 2, 1970 release from active duty was under honorable conditions, speculation is misconduct while he was in the Naval Reserves resulted in a less than honorable dismissal that required a board of officers convened under authority of Title 10 U.S. Code Section 1163 that determined his discharge was honorable. The approved recommendations of a convened board of officers are unusual and this is part of the cause for speculation a dismissal was upgraded to an Honorable discharge. 

It is unclear from the records if all his commitment and obligation in the Naval Reserve was inactive duty status. However, U.S. Navy correspondence pertinent to his release from active duty states: You are advised that your release from active duty does not terminate your status as a member of the U.S. Naval Reserve. On the day following the effective date of your release from active duty as specified in paragraph 3 of this endorsement, you will assume the status of a member of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty. While on inactive duty you are subject to involuntary recall to active duty to the extent authorized by Federal statute.

If John F. Kerry completed his entire military obligation on inactive duty status, he would only be subject to trial by court martial under Articles 83, 104, or 106. The authority for this is found in Rule 202 Persons Subject to Jurisdictions to Courts-Martial, which expands upon Article 2 that defines classes of persons subject to the code. Only Article 104-Aiding the enemy has any connection to the conduct and behavior of John Kerry if his reserve time was nothing but inactive duty status. However, it is enough to give a second cause to speculate he some how influenced a dismissal into an honorable discharge.

It is public record John F. Kerry met with both delegation of Vietnamese Communists in Paris France in 1970 and it is allegedly in FBI files that he met with representatives from the North Vietnamese government in Paris France in 1971. Considering also his very active and visible leadership role in the antiwar movement, it is clear he was in direct violation of the UCMJ and Constitutional Codes and articles. The scope of article 104 is it denounces offences by all persons whether or not otherwise subject to military law. Offenders may be tried by court martial or military by military commission. The nature of the offense is no unauthorized communication, correspondence, or intercourse with the enemy is permissible. It is clear John F. Kerry knowingly and purposely aided the enemy. Consequently, the majority of Vietnam Veterans do consider him a traitor, betrayer, and a liar.

The dismissal is the commissioned officer version of a dishonorable discharge. Any dismissal subsequent to an honorable discharge null and voids any previous honorable discharge and any awards and decorations. Consequently, there are administrative peculiarities in the documents and certificates of some of John Kerrys decorations that provide cause for some to believe the medal were revoked and then awarded back to him.

Even if John Kerry was not subject to jurisdictions to military court martial, he violated U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, which declares it is illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power. Violating the United States Constitution is something he believes he can do whenever he decides. His first foreign policy action as a freshman senator in 1985 was to visit with Sandinista officials to include three hours of direct and personal negation with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega. This was also a direct violation of federal code and sections of the U.S. Constitution.

Senator John F. Kerrys voting record as an elected official of government doesn't demonstrate a commitment to ensuring American fighting forces, intelligence gathering agencies, and law enforcement agencies are equipped and trained to do what is needed to keep our homelands safe. Senator Kerry has an inability to work effectively with Presidents who does not share his views. His mischief as senator to participate in unauthorized and secret negotiations with leaders and officials of other governments and the United Nations that are putting the lives of our armed forced in jeopardy in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is his sense of duty and sense of the good life can easily result in more harm than safety, more taxes than advertised in campaign promises, and other consequences. What kind of deals is he cutting to get the support of foreign countries and peoples? Why is the left wing Guardian newspaper of London identifying American voters and encouraging its readers to write letters to American voters encouraging them to vote for John F. Kerry?

The lack of inquiry and interest by the news media undermines the purpose for having a free press. Freedom of the press is an essential essence of liberty and the better time for vigilance is before misinformed voters make choices.

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## Jana Lewis

Honestly....who really cares? 

I think this vietnam service/**** has really worn itself out. Who really cares what Kerry did or did not do 25 years ago? 

* and a side note... I really don't care about Bush's TANG record either. It's all water under the bridge and I don't think it makes a difference as to what type of president either one of them will make. There are plenty of issues that need to be addressed, none of them have anything to do with Vietnam. 

Just my opinion.

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## Joann Raytar

Jana, that was a harsh first impression of OptiBoard for jocha.  :Confused:   This is jocha's first post and they were only stating their opinion.

While I agree with Jana that the long ago past might not determine who will make the better President, it does demonstrate the character of both men.

I also agree with jocha. I don't feel we have an unbiased press.

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## Jana Lewis

Sorry Jo....and Johca. I honestly did not mean to come across as rude. I apologize. 


I just get sick of hearing about Bush's TANG record and Kerry's Vietnam record. I cannot believe that it has actually received so much press. 

My apologies to you Johca. I hope I have not offended, it's never my intent. 

:)

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## Spexvet

> Jana, that was a harsh first impression of OptiBoard for jocha.   This is jocha's first post and they were only stating their opinion.
> 
>  While I agree with Jana that the long ago past might not determine who will make the better President, it does demonstrate the character of both men.
> 
>  I also agree with jocha. I don't feel we have an unbiased press.


 I agree! This right wing press really gets to me!:p:D:D:D:D:D:D

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## johca

Janayour apology is not needed as I do not consider your reply harsh nor did it delve into the realm of name calling which I would have found disappointing.  ButThank you.



I was serving an enlistment in the armed forces before I was old enough to vote, so how Senator John Kerry use his Vietnam service as a game piece on a game board bothers me, especially since how he conducted himself in 1970, 1971, 1972 caused me to be spat on by complete strangers.



After becoming a Senator, John F. Kerry has gotten into much mischief taking on roles and responsibilities beyond the authority of elected office he holds or the committees hes a member of.    His methods of priming witness testimony are consistent with how he acted and behaved during the Winter Soldier investigation and is why I consider his military service relevant.  There is a demonstrated character issue that has not changed and the press is ignoring it.



However my greater concern is a media that is biased and not pursuing inquiry even-handedly into both candidates.

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## hcjilson

Johnca- Welcome to Optiboard. I am aware of your disatisfaction with the fact Kerry went to Paris to speak with the North Vietamese as stated in your above post. Do you share the same disatisfaction with Dr Kissinger, who did exactly the same thing? and lest you think his position in the Nixon administration made it within the bounds of legitimacy, how about the private citizen who made the initial contact with the North Vietnamese to set up the negotiations for the end of the war.

The implication in the post directly above this one is that Kerry did something as a senator during the Winter Soldier investigation. Didn't that take place in the early 70's? If so, Kerry hadn't run yet. I am sorry if I misread your post, and would like to learn something more about "Winter Soldier"

Nice to have you here! Any snow up there yet??
harry j

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## chip anderson

Jocha:  
Fear not there are some of us who feel Kerry will make an excellent president, of France.  
On the other side there are women who are too dumb to take birth control pill and concider the right to murder unborn children thier most important "right." 

Chip

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## Jana Lewis

Geee Chip!


Talk about inflamatory posts!  I have to STRONGLY disagree with your assesment about Women being too "dumb" to take birth control pills. Did you know that there are some women who cannot take BC pills, due to severe health risks? I am one of those women and I will tell you straight up, I am NOT STUPID! 

How dare you make such a blanket statement! 

My right is to have total CONTROL over my body, I don't want the government or YOU to make any desicions for me! 

Not only that, but does your post have to do with the initial thread anyway?

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## johca

hcjilsonbrevity for purpose of not writing a book that results in many people not bothering to even bother to read an opinion can cause confusion. You have valid questions, and I will try my best to give my perspective.


The U.S. Constitution gives the President the power with the Advise and Consent of the Senate, to make treaties with foreign nations providing two thirds of the senate present concurs. What this means is the President is responsible for negotiating treaties and the Senate is responsibility for making it law of the land or perhaps a better perspective is the President takes the initiative pertaining to what to agree to in making an agreement and the Senate either makes it legally binding or rejects it.


The Constitution couples the Presidents treaty-making power with the power to appoint ambassadors and to receive or to refuse to receive ambassadors, therefore giving the President alone the power to recognize, or to deny diplomatic recognition to, other governments.


It matters not what I think of Dr. Kissingers duties and role negotiating with the North Vietnamese government because the President appointed Dr. Kissinger to be his mouth, ears and eyes at the negotiating table.


Any private citizen assuming the role and duty to initiate contact in behalf of the United States Government with the enemy in time of war is potentially committing a treasonous act. If they run for President then they will need to convince me why I should vote for them. Perhaps they can persuade me to vote for them and perhaps not. I would not be basing my decision only on talks they entered into out of ignorance but with good intentions.


John F. Kerry is an individual who, in my opinion, consistently is in conflict with rules of conduct in that he readily commits misdeeds to for political gain. The Winter Soldier Investigation was the basis for Lt. John F. Kerrys Congressional testimony he gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971. His testimony was dishonest. There was duplicity as several people claimed to have U.S. Armed Forces combatants fighting in Vietnam. Al Hubbard, Executive Secretary and founder of Vietnam Veterans Against War (VVAW) claimed to be an Air Force pilot wounded in Vietnam. He was never an officer, never wounded, and in Viet Nam. Others VVAW members Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swets and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam where they routinely killed children and removed body parts as a part of their duty. They were shown to have never been in the Phoenix program nor had they ever been in Viet Nam. And the list of more frauds later found within the organization is mind-boggling. The testimony included exaggerations, pretense, and deception pertaining to gross human rights violations being encouraged by the chain of command and a matter of policy for our troops. His behavior was beyond irresponsible, it was criminal dishonesty. Although the Winter Soldier investigations were thoroughly discredited, they continued to be used to discredit the Vietnam era military, such as in a 1993 Newsweek story by Brownmiller about gang rape by soldiers. They also continue to be the basis for the myths and stereotypes which linger, even today, about Viet Nam veterans.


Freshman Senator John F. Kerry travel to Managua Nicaragua in April 1985 were he initiated secret negotiations with President Daniel Ortega and others government officials. On the floor of the Senate in an emotional April 23 speech, Kerry presented the document as something new. "I share with this body the aide-mémoire which was presented to us by President Ortega," he told his colleagues - without mentioning his own role and that of his aide McCall in its drafting.

Senator Kerry subsequently self-assumed role and authority to conduct his own investigation to discredit United States policy in Nicaragua. The testimony he primed was as honest, accurate, and truthful as the testimony he engineered and gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971. Most of the testimony was from dead informants that were never identified. The Washington Times revealed that Kerry had concealed evidence of Sandinista drug trafficking and had deleted information from his staff report of the previous October to pin the blame on the Sandinistas' U.S.-backed opponents. As with several news stories that discredited Kerry's investigations, the senator refused to speak to journalists seeking to question him.


Secret meetings, secret agreements, lying, and when exposed refusing to speak to journalists. Perhaps you see the pattern Im concerned about. Again, my biggest concern is the lack of the media to inquiry for the factual-information and to give it to the voters. I know what kind of leadership George W. Bush provides, Im afraid to find out what kind of leadership John F. Kerry will provide and even more frighten to have to deal with the results of his leadership.


BTWno snow in Anchorage yet. Usually happens around the end of October. :bbg: 


Hi to everybody else posting in the thread. Thanks for your interest to read and reply to my post. :cheers:

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## Spexvet

> Jocha:  
>  Fear not there are some of us who feel Kerry will make an excellent president, of France.  
>  On the other side there are women who are too dumb to take birth control pill and concider the right to murder unborn children thier most important "right." 
> 
>  Chip


 Chip,
 I really worry about you.

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## Spexvet

Johca,
 Curious, are you concerned by the lack of judgement exhibited by the current president? Back in the day he drove while intoxicated, made poor business decisions, and will not deny that he used cocaine. Don't these actions suggest that he, too, feels he is above the constitution.

 There were a lot of "accusations, allegations, speculations, beliefs" in your first post. I've seen a facsimile of the citation for DUI with George Bush's name on it, do have proof of anything you stated in your first post?

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## mrba

> Johnca- Welcome to Optiboard. I am aware of your disatisfaction with the fact Kerry went to Paris to speak with the North Vietamese as stated in your above post. Do you share the same disatisfaction with Dr Kissinger, who did exactly the same thing?


Is Kissenger running for office?

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## rinselberg

> ... I was serving an enlistment in the armed forces before I was old enough to vote, so how Senator John Kerry use his Vietnam service as a game piece on a game board bothers me, especially since how he conducted himself in 1970, 1971, 1972 caused me to be spat on by complete strangers. ...


Hello johca. My powers of concentration are not so great, and there's a lot of material in your posts. This statement, however, quickly caught my eye as I was scrolling down this thread. I would call it "somewhat overboard". I think that when senseless and stupid acts are witnessed, such as spitting on (our) soldiers, there are different causes that vary from violator to violator (Violator: in this case, one who insulted or abused our soldiers in the way that you describe.) Some of the violators may have been influenced by what they saw or made of Kerry's actions and/or words. But this is an indictment of the violators themselves and not Kerry. I have never heard that Kerry urged anyone to personally insult or assault our military personnel. "Insult" may be subject to some debate, but I cannot imagine that Kerry  urged anyone to insult Vietnam veterans in such a crude manner as spitting, even if on the ground nearby and not the veterans themselves. I am not trying to take issue with any of the other material in your posts. Just to be of service to you on this one point. "Feedback."

Regards.

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## chip anderson

Johca:

Bless you!  You may have shown a way to get rid of Jessie Jackson, Jimmie Carter, and Al Sharpton all with the same charge!   A thousand times bless you.  If we haven't been able to get Jessie and Al on extortion, maybe collusion with foriegn powers will put them away.

Chip

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## Joann Raytar

> Geee Chip!
> 
> Not only that, but does your post have to do with the initial thread anyway?


I agree - way off topic.

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## johca

> ... Some of the violators may have been influenced by what they saw or made of Kerry's actions and/or words. But this is an indictment of the violators themselves and not Kerry. I have never heard that Kerry urged anyone to personally insult or assault our military personnel. "Insult" may be subject to some debate, but I cannot imagine that Kerry urged anyone to insult Vietnam veterans in such a crude manner as spitting, even if on the ground nearby and not the veterans themselves. I am not trying to take issue with any of the other material in your posts. Just to be of service to you on this one point. "Feedback."
> 
> Regards.


... "Although the Winter Soldier investigations were thoroughly discredited, they continued to be used to discredit the Vietnam era military, such as in a 1993 Newsweek story by Brownmiller about gang rape by soldiers. They also continue to be the basis for the myths and stereotypes which linger, even today, about Vietnam veterans."

His dishonest testimony had direct impact on people's beliefs because his expressed views of an authority of been there and done that and most if not all members of the armed forces in Vietnam were there doing the same thing. He exaggerated and distorted mostly fictional stories in a Senate forum that legitimized his stories as being the truth in a forum that allowed him to reach a wide audience that then allowed the untruth to continue to pass from person to person as being the truth. 

The means to that end desired by him and the Vietnam Veterans Against War (VVAW) was what must I do in order to get the end of the war, if I cant do it truthfully I should do it dishonestly. Deception is planned lying, it has a strategic character to it, it is a deliberate plan to fool someone into thinking one way rather than another. Deceit controls more subtly than force, and, those who cannot be subdued by force can often be over come by deceit.

It is the deceit generated by John Kerry that caused many to spit on or at the feet of veterans. John Kerry's actions is the most public salient cause for generating such bad feelings towards veteran he labeled as all being baby killers, tortures, and otherwise bad people. John Kerry lacked (IMO) the backbone to directly urge but his deceit made people believe and these people then acted on their beliefs.

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## johca

> Johca,
> Curious, are you concerned by the lack of judgement exhibited by the current president? Back in the day he drove while intoxicated, made poor business decisions, and will not deny that he used cocaine. Don't these actions suggest that he, too, feels he is above the constitution.
> 
> There were a lot of "accusations, allegations, speculations, beliefs" in your first post. I've seen a facsimile of the citation for DUI with George Bush's name on it, do have proof of anything you stated in your first post?


John Kerry's anti -war activities are documented in public record as is his travels to Paris to meet with officials of the North Vietnamese. The military rule and U.S. Codes (law) is also public domain. The speculation of his dismissal is based upon his refusal to allow release of military and FBI records that would prove or disprove allegations and speculations he was held accountable with a dismissal and then used his political influence to upgrade his dismissal to a honorable discharge. His mischief and questionable activities in how he performs the duties of his elected office are matter of record should you choose to inquire into his complete Senate record. You have access to the same proof I do should you decide to seek out and go to the primary sources.

Regarding President George W. Bush driving intoxicated, making poor business decisions, and not denying using cocaine. He has stated he has been drug free since 1974 and no certainly so, probably so, or possible so evidence has ever been produced pertaining to illegal recreational drug use except for alcohol consumption and driving under the influence. The faulty counter argument would shift argument of feeling Bush is above the Constitution by bring forth the history of Senator Edward Ted Kennedy, Chappaquiddick Island, July 18, 1969 and drug histories of others holding elected office. However, I can address this issue without shifting attacks to other people.

The action of Bush driving intoxicated must be shown to be relevant, timely cause that would effect the outcome in any significant way the decisions he would make and the ability to perform his elected role and duties. It cannot be shown with any credibility that President George Bush participated in illegal recreational drug use and certainly has not been under the influence of such illegal substances since he began holding public office. Pertaining to his use of alcohol, it no longer seems to be relevant as he foreswore alcohol consumption in 1986 and it appears he has avoided any consumption since then. Considering he has held the office for four years and is seek to hold it four more years, the lack of drug or alcohol use causing any effect in him accomplishing his Presidential duties makes this an irrelevant concern and a non-issue.

Unlike other some other elected officials, President Bushs alcohol consumption has not resulted in unintended harm or death of others. Nor has excessive alcohol consumption caused President Bush to bring with him an intoxicated condition in the performance of his elected role and duties. The same alcohol abstinence or responsible consumption are not true of some other elected officials.

There is important difference between the desire and wish to do the good and the will to do the good. The good will is not good because of what effects or accomplishes, it is a manifestation of a persons sense of duty and how he or she sustains a code of obligations towards others. The herd morality of some peoples political beliefs aim at the removal of everything dangerous to life. This unfortunately can result in democracy becoming socialism with its excessive tax burden on everyone who has an income. It can also result in freedoms becoming legislated away if choice is decided safety and security is to make the government of the United States a subordinate proxy government of the United Nations or other type of World Government. These issues ought to be thought about by every voter before they make their choice in the election booth.

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## chip anderson

Simple Jana:   If it's illegal for any citizen to negotiate with a foriegn power, Jessie, Jimmy, an Al are all guilty.   May not have do with Kerry but, if it's Kerry's un-prosecuted crime it's so nuff, Jessie, Jimmy and Al's un-proscecuted crime.  Maybe they could get combined cell with Kerry.

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## Bev Heishman

Why do we mistrust Kerry, wife, Edwards, etc? We doubt that these individuals may lead based on issues of the past? However we accept that George and Laura have had many problems in the past including problems with addiction and manslaughter. 

My problem there are always opportunities to change and move on. How comes it is ok for G(Weasel) and Laura but not John and Teresa?  Secondly, GW had no national experience until he moved from TEX"***" to DC and we are to accept his word his hands down with no ?'s asked?

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## johca

> Why do we mistrust Kerry, wife, Edwards, etc? We doubt that these individuals may lead based on issues of the past? However we accept that George and Laura have had many problems in the past including problems with addiction and manslaughter. 
> 
> My problem there are always opportunities to change and move on. How comes it is ok for G(Weasel) and Laura but not John and Teresa? Secondly, GW had no national experience until he moved from TEX"***" to DC and we are to accept his word his hands down with no ?'s asked?


I dont trust Senator John F. Kerry because he does not change in how he manipulates and he does not move on. Vietnam service history became an issue because Senator John F. Kerry wanted to make it an issue until discrepancies and contradictions in his naval reserve service history and revealing the information for resolving the discrepancies became a danger to his political ambitions.

Statements made by presidential candidate John F. Kerry create false hopes among enemies of the United States that encourage our enemies to kill American soldiers and citizens as fear, insecurity, and false hopes are powerful tools for influencing an election for their benefit. John Kerry is not clueless about how he influences and encourages bad things to happen.

Trust involves confidence in a persons intentions and good will combined with how he or she fulfills their promises and obligations. Open hostility and disagreement does not destroy trust. The only change I have seen in Senator Kerry is he has learned how to engage others to prevent accountability and responsibility for his failures and mistakes. The claim I will do the right or better thing because I pleased everybody with my decisions does not bring with it into reality any possibility the right or better decision happens. Being elected to office does not predict ability to lead and determine outcomes especially when the going get tuff. Leadership requires the strength of will and a power to overcome difficult obstacles and to go on despite setbacks, defeats and difficulties.

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## chip anderson

People don't trust Kerry because he is known to be a liar. Kerry is perceived as a gigolo who has always depended on women for his support.

George was and is known for stating what he believes. Don't know that he was known to lie even when he was hitting the bottle. No one cares if one has "marital troubles" as long as they are known for telling the truth. 

Now you may re-but with all your example about you believe George to be a liar.

But the above is the way the public perceives things.

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## Joann Raytar

I agree with you Chip.  I believe the President was fed bad intelligence from a number of sources but I believe the President thought that info was trustworthy. I still believe we see the real President Bush and I trust that more than I trust someone who is out to win a popularity contest.

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## chm2023

> I agree with you Chip. I believe the President was fed bad intelligence from a number of sources but I believe the President thought that info was trustworthy. I still believe we see the real President Bush and I trust that more than I trust someone who is out to win a popularity contest.


Trustworthy but stupid is still stupid. I find your choice of words interesting: Bush was "fed" information--rather a passive image. Isn't he supposed to be in charge? Isn't he supposed to demand all the info, engage all POVs? Drive the decision making process?  You know, be a leader. Apparently not.

And was the way Bush handled the assault ban law issue "trustworthy"? How about his "promise" not to engage in nation building? How about his "promise" to exhaust all remedies before going to war? BTW, see where 47 Iraqi soldier/recruits were executed today. Yet Bush still insists that come the January elections all will be well. Ask yourself this question: comes election day, regardless of the outcome, do you really think the insurgents are going to say "well gee, guess that's the ballgame". I assume you saw (and elected to ignore) the latest state dept info on the number of insurgents now estimated to be operating in Iraq. Seems (and I know based on the admin track-record this is hard to believe) our estimates have been off by a factor of 3. Guess which way.

I guess I have a different standard for trustworthy. I still remember Bush announcing his candidancy at Bob Jones U. But of course, he doesn't engage in popularity contests, he simply felt the best way to show what a trustworthy fella he is was to appear at a school with a formal policy of segregation and anti-Catholicism. There's that stupid thing again. (Bet someone "fed" him this idea.)

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## Joann Raytar

> I guess I have a different standard for trustworthy.


Exactly, and that's why we hold elections. The US varies from region to region, state to state and city to city. There are political topics that some of us are never going to agree on because we don't share the same life experiences; we have different priorities. I am not going to have the same political needs as a midwestern farmer or an Ohio machinist; therefore, I am going to expect different policies from the politicians I support.

Of course there are areas that affect us all - education, social security, healthcare. The only thing I find annoying about this years campaigning on both sides is that these were the issues touched the least.

I also believe that both parties heavily rely on PR departments that tell them where to go and what to say.

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## chip anderson

Chm2023:
   I'll bet that if I told you Kerrry was one of the most revered hero's in North Vietnam and had a whole wall dedicated to him in the North Vietnamise war museum you wouldn't believe it .
  But then of course he does.

Chip

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## johca

> Exactly, and that's why we hold elections. The US varies from region to region, state to state and city to city. There are political topics that some of us are never going to agree on because we don't share the same life experiences; we have different priorities. I am not going to have the same political needs as a midwestern farmer or an Ohio machinist; therefore, I am going to expect different policies from the politicians I support.
> 
> Of course there are areas that affect us all - education, social security, healthcare. The only thing I find annoying about this years campaigning on both sides is that these were the issues touched the least.
> 
> I also believe that both parties heavily rely on PR departments that tell them where to go and what to say.


I agree especially with comment concerning education, social security, and healthcare.

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## mrba

> Why do we mistrust Kerry, wife, Edwards, etc? We doubt that these individuals may lead based on issues of the past? However we accept that George and Laura have had many problems in the past including problems with addiction and manslaughter. 
> 
> My problem there are always opportunities to change and move on. How comes it is ok for G(Weasel) and Laura but not John and Teresa? Secondly, GW had no national experience until he moved from TEX"***" to DC and we are to accept his word his hands down with no ?'s asked?


Being a traitor to our country is worse than drunk driving.  GB's nose is clean.

Manslaughter?

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## chm2023

> Chm2023:
> I'll bet that if I told you Kerrry was one of the most revered hero's in North Vietnam and had a whole wall dedicated to him in the North Vietnamise war museum you wouldn't believe it .
> But then of course he does.
> 
> Chip


And you would win that bet.  But then, I cling to the notion that Vince Foster committed suicide and that fluoridation was not a vast plot and that Eisenhower and Dulles were not in bed with the Commies.  ( However, I am pretty sure that Hitler is alive in Bolivia, still doing the watercolors, thanks; and that Elvis is alive and working at a Krispy Kream outside Tulsa.)

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## johca

> And you would win that bet. But then, I cling to the notion that Vince Foster committed suicide and that fluoridation was not a vast plot and that Eisenhower and Dulles were not in bed with the Commies. ( However, I am pretty sure that Hitler is alive in Bolivia, still doing the watercolors, thanks; and that Elvis is alive and working at a Krispy Kream outside Tulsa.)


This provides the reason why he is so honored: http://www.nysun.com/article/3756

Not conclusive evidence, the documents (if authentic) indicate the strong probability Naval Reserve officer Lt. John F. Kerry was informing the North Vietnam government of his planned antiwar activities through Madam Binh and this indicates the possibility Madam Bihn could be providing additional recommendations for John Kerry to implement in his antiwar activities.

These documents are more reliable than the urban myths of Hitler living in Bolivia and Elvis being alive and well making Krispy Kream donut.  Vince Foster did commit suicide, but it certainly was a death of convience that made several people happy.  Water Fluoridation was and remains a vast plot to irradicate or reduce tooth decay, but if you are worried about that plot then water chlorination needs to be given equal billing.  Regarding Eisenhower and Dulles being in bed with the communists, whatever was happpening at least the United States and the forner Soviet Union didn't become nuclear waste lands..

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## chm2023

> This provides the reason why he is so honored: http://www.nysun.com/article/3756
> 
> Not conclusive evidence, the documents (if authentic) indicate the strong probability Naval Reserve officer Lt. John F. Kerry was informing the North Vietnam government of his planned antiwar activities through Madam Binh and this indicates the possibility Madam Bihn could be providing additional recommendations for John Kerry to implement in his antiwar activities.
> 
> These documents are more reliable than the urban myths of Hitler living in Bolivia and Elvis being alive and well making Krispy Kream donut. Vince Foster did commit suicide, but it certainly was a death of convience that made several people happy. Water Fluoridation was and remains a vast plot to irradicate or reduce tooth decay, but if you are worried about that plot then water chlorination needs to be given equal billing. Regarding Eisenhower and Dulles being in bed with the communists, whatever was happpening at least the United States and the forner Soviet Union didn't become nuclear waste lands..


The New York Sun? Are you kidding me?

And why is it that conservatives are so humorless? The fluoride reference alludes to Dr Strangelove; I keep forgetting that cultural literacy--or any other sort of literacy--is highly suspect in right wing circles.

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## johca

> The fluoride reference alludes to Dr Strangelove; I keep forgetting that cultural literacy--or any other sort of literacy--is highly suspect in right wing circles.


 LOL I had forgotten.. You got me good:cheers: 
I was presuming your reference was to the health risk concerns floating in some circles of Chlorine and Fluoride additives causing more harm than good.



However, I do agree with you about the NY Sun, which is why I inserted (if authentic).

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## Spexvet

> Exactly, and that's why we hold elections. The US varies from region to region, state to state and city to city. There are political topics that some of us are never going to agree on because we don't share the same life experiences; we have different priorities. I am not going to have the same political needs as a midwestern farmer or an Ohio machinist; therefore, I am going to expect different policies from the politicians I support.
> 
> Of course there are areas that affect us all - education, social security, healthcare. The only thing I find annoying about this years campaigning on both sides is that these were the issues touched the least.
> 
> I also believe that both parties heavily rely on PR departments that tell them where to go and what to say.


Jo - the discussion is about trust, and lying is universal. Bush is trustwrthy? How about**:

"Now we learn that Bush was picked up for driving under the influence and has lied about it. _Dallas Morning News_ reporter Wayne Slater writes that Bush replied no when asked in 1998 if, beyond some acknowledged run-ins with the law as a college student in 1968, he had ever been arrested. There is another report that Bush was asked by Texas newsmen in 1996 point blank whether he had ever been arrested for drunk driving, and the governor evaded the question."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/no...bush-n04.shtml

BTW, I don't think W lied about WMD, he believed what people told him, without questioning. And these people told him what he wanted to hear, not surprisingly.

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