# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Oakley/VSP experience

## JRAWKER

Here's the deal folks (it's complex, so pay attention). 

I currently have VSP benefits (120 off + a 20% overage) and planned on using them towards a pair of Oakley Juliet X-Metal/Ruby Iridium glasses (Retail: 425 My price: 244). Overseeing the process was a headache in and of itself because:

A) Trying to find a VSP dealer that deals Oakley: they're practically nonexistant or they're just completely uninterested in honoring VSP's policies. The dealer I decided on is somewhat of a ******** *(word deleted by moderator)*. I've tried going to him before in order to use my benefits, but he's so arrogant. At any rate, I pitched my interest in the glasses and once he calculated my benefits vs he cost...he threw up his arms, told me that it wasn't a good enough margin for him to work on (right, his store is empty, but lets pass up any form of profit) and told me that unless I was willing to pay him another $100, there was no way he was going to do it. Which leads me to....


B) The dealer then decided to confirm my benefits with VSP. Let me come right out and say that VSP is *sorely* lacking in consistency. While I fully realize that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys, the customer service reps that tried to complete the transaction did not only confuse my benefits, but they were so belligerent as to not even reconsider the possibility that they were wrong--and I spoke to atleast 3 supervisors. Thankfully I did my do-dilligence because, sure enough--when I spoke with the same supervisor again--they admitted they were wrong. The Optician, upon hearing that he would have to sell them to me at the low price of 244...threw a fit and I had to fork over 305 (the confused benefits price). VSP is supposedly going to reimburse me the difference, but whatever. I left a $150 deposit of which he claims is non-refundable...even in the event that he cannot get them for me. 

C) After spending atleast a good 3-4 hours negotiating this transaction, I decided to call Oakley to see what availability looks like, as that particular model is generally produced in very limited quantities (they just brought it back). What can go wrong now, right? THEY TELL ME THAT THEY'RE NOT EVEN SHIPPING THEM TO DEALERS AND THAT IT'S DOUBTFUL THAT HE'LL EVEN BE ABLE TO GET THEM FOR ME. I'm furious. Oakley should be getting back to me on monday with, hopefully, my particular case's status. 

To sum up, after putting up with all that garbage, there's a fair chance they may not even be able to deliver the goods. *******s.

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## Framebender

that is insurance and Oakley!  If you're looking for sympathy I doubt you're going to find much here, but I could be wrong.  Try dealing with insurance companies and 2 or 3 Oakley like companies everyday.  You must sell product on very thin margins for the insurance and the Oakley like companies want you to invest several thousand dollars in non returnable merchadise for the privlege of being an authorized distributor.

I'm sorry you're brand brainwashed, but I don't feel sorry for you.  Welcome to our world!

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## Twobadapples

...

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## Jubilee

The problems also lies with Oakley, Maui Jim, and many other sunglass companies who have strict policies on discounting their merchandise. In order to be an authorized outlet, you have to agree to charge what they tell you to charge, or more. Just not less. 

So here is a product the optician doesn't get a discount on. Is supposed to sell at a minimum price to keep their agreement, and an insurance company is trying to force the optician to sell them for less than he will spend in getting the product, making the calls, verifying the job and doing everything it takes to get you a limited product. 

Imagine having to do what you did for your situation for your patients at least 3 times a day. It is amazing how much a little "insurance problem" will eat up your time and phone bill.

According to the Oakley website, the glasses should be back in stock on July 8th.. at least through their stores anyway..

Cassandra

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## Cindy Hamlin

> I left a $150 deposit of which he claims is non-refundable...even in the event that he cannot get them for me.


That he cannot do.  If he can't deliver the product he cannot keep the deposit.  Also, if he is unable to get the product you should contact VSP in order to get the benefits he was paid returned so that you can use them elsewhere.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I'm sorry you're brand brainwashed, but I don't feel sorry for you. Welcome to our world!*


That is the state in the optical trade these days. For every one of these brand frames or also lenses there is an equivalent non brand one available for much less cost.
If you would have done some reseach you would have found it.

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## mike.elmes

I sell Oakley, and Oakley rx.....sooo glad I can't be told what to sell them for(less than list).Our agreement with Oakley is to sell for the suggested list price, thus protecting US from  discounting...this is a win win situation. In Canada at least.

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## Matthew

Well, as a retailer, I hate VSP. Of course I have posted that before. I mean they have it worked out that basically we get reimbursed my cost on the frame. Now we have to take off another 20%. There goes any shot of profit at all on a frame. 

I like to work for free, dont you?  :hammer:

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## mike.elmes

why not opt out of taking VSP?? If it isn't profitable dump it! I'd rather NOT do business at NO PROFIT...opt out!!:D

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## Framebender

with the exception of the kid that started this are Opticians.  Since VSP is an OD only club I don't know why they don't opt out.  I can tell you I take Eyemed because Martin Marietta is a big player in my area and that's their insurance now.  I know alot of OD's were mad when they lost VSP.  Me, I'm loving life!!

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## JRAWKER

Meh. Regardless of margins, VSP should deliver. That, afterall, is the point of their services--to give the lowest price to the consumer. >:[

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## shellrob

I cannot say much about you're actually getting your Oakley frame but Cindy is right-he absolutley cannot keep your deposit if he cannot deliver the goods. That would be criminal. 

If you're dead set on the Oakley-get it where you can-submit for the reimbursemetn(as stated above) and take it to your reputable Optician to have them made.

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## mike.elmes

Maybe YOU should spend a few hundred thousand on a business so you could buy Oakley sunglasses for cost. Margins pay the bills and my salary...do you work for free?? I say screw VSP.     QUOTE=JRAWKER]Meh. Regardless of margins, VSP should deliver. That, afterall, is the point of their services--to give the lowest price to the consumer. >:[[/QUOTE]

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## orangezero

Dear Consumer:

How much did you pay to get this (pardon my crassness) stupid silly crazy wellvision plan??  I really do feel sorry for the patients that can't understand how much of a ripoff VSP is.  Providers should know better.  Its an endless cycle.  The only people that end up looking bad in the end is the Doctor/office/optician because they are constantly upset at the reimbursment, which I feel is totally justified (however unprofessional).


I wish people (HR departments, actually) understood how stupid most vision plans are, how everyone in the industry hates dealing with them.  Even the people who "like" them seem to only like them because they have been suckered into the belief that it was good initially and now are worried they will lose patients if they drop it.

Vision plans make pyramid schemes seem like charity work.

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## Fezz

> Meh. Regardless of margins, VSP should deliver. That, afterall, is the point of their services--to give the lowest price to the consumer. >:[




IS IT?          Come on now.....think about what you are saying.

The point of there services is to give you, the patient, as little benefit for your dollars as possible, to charge as high a premium as you and your employer can bear and to reimburse the provider as little as they can. The point of there service is to make money for them.


Fezz
 :cheers:

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## orangezero

good point fezz.  vision plans are to make money.  Or in eyemed's case, to prepay people for their own opticals, frames, etc.  Basically to make money before the person even steps in to their store, oh, and plus its seen by the employee as a "benefit."  wow.  I really wish that more companies would cut out the crap they are giving to their employees, instead of actual useful services.


off topic: your name makes me think of those candies that come out of famous people mouths.. pezz...  sorry.

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## Malibu Barbie

> I really do feel sorry for the patients that can't understand how much of a ripoff VSP is.


Hmmm, I have a VSP plan, but it's only a discount plan (not insurance).  I've been using out-of-network providers and pay full price upfront, so the providers don't know I later receive a generous reimbursement from my VSP plan.  Is the provider affected in any way by this hidden discount program?  I was just curious.  :)

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## orangezero

good question, I don't know for sure.  I'm guessing not, if they are not a plan provider.  The reimbursement rates you receive would be a lot less than if you went in plan though, I'm guessing.

I'm looking at taking VSP only as an out of plan provider.  Unfortunately, they do a great job marketing to companies and employers to get on their plans.  For those patients that get it for free, sure, I'd agree its not a bad thing.  However, your company is paying X number of dollars for a supposed vision plan, then you are paying Y out of your own pocket, and your VSP plan pays you back Z, right?  I'm guessing they still make out pretty good in this scenario, but not as good as if they can get you all to go in plan.  It would be interesting to know the specifics though.

If that's the case, why don't you just tell your employer to give you that originally X amount, and you'll get exams where you feel its best?

just rambling, i need to go to bed.

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## Malibu Barbie

> good question, I don't know for sure. I'm guessing not, if they are not a plan provider. I'm looking at taking VSP only as an out of plan provider. Unfortunately, they do a great job marketing to companies and employers to get on their plans. ... It would be interesting to know the specifics though. If that's the case, why don't you just tell your employer to give you that originally X amount, and you'll get exams where you feel its best? just rambling, i need to go to bed.


Actually, you don't have to accept VSP at all with my particular plan. I can go to any optical facility or even purchase online and still receive my discount. My VSP plan is only $10/mo., and I pay for it out of my own pocket because I'm self-employed. It has actually saved me a LOT of money, because I LOVE fad frames - I mean very bold - fashion statement PLUS! So, I'm getting several pairs of really funky sunglasses (including Dame Edna frames - yah, I can get away with it with my features and personality) with prescription lenses for dirt cheap. My vision is only slightly impaired -0.75 to -1.00, for driving only, so I figured if I was gonna break down and overcome my vanity issues, I might as well have tons of FUN with it. :D

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## Malibu Barbie

> Meh. Regardless of margins, VSP should deliver. That, afterall, is the point of their services--to give the lowest price to the consumer. >:[


Yeah, that's what VSP advertises, but like what was mentioned above, they have to make a worthy profit somehow.  I called VSP and asked about my out-of-network benefits on my discount (not insurance) plan ... turns out that I can go to any facility and  receive a very generous discount outside the "network".  ;)

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## Malibu Barbie

> That he cannot do. If he can't deliver the product he cannot keep the deposit.


I totally agree with Cindy! :)

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## VisionAiry

I would have to say that if you pay for a VSP plan out of your own pocket you are fooling yourself.

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## Uncle Fester

Welcome to Optiboard Visionairy.:cheers:

Love this old thread started back when consumers could rant along with us but times have changed and the board is restricted to ECP's only.

Dealing with insurance reminds me of the old saying--

Q--Why are you beating your head against the wall?
A--Because it feels so good when I stop!

I think Chris Ryser coined it.:p

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## Fezz

Visionary,

What is your beef with VSP. This is like the third thread that you dregged up to bash VSP. 

What is your deal?

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## VisionAiry

_ IS IT?          Come on now.....think about what you are saying.

The point of there services is to give you, the patient, as little benefit for your dollars as possible, to charge as high a premium as you and your employer can bear and to reimburse the provider as little as they can. The point of there service is to make money for them._ 


It sounds like the same beef you've got, and everyone else for that matter.  I wouldn't be a provider if they crowned me king.  I'm not into doing more business for less money and provide shoddy service because of it.  I like to be able to make the glasses I sell, thats why people come to me.  So many places become dependent on them and then get the carpet pulled out from under 'em.  Besides most of the frames i carry are price controlled so I can't sell them that cheap anyway, nor would it make any sense to do so. That goes back to the original topic of this post.  If you sell high end, or even moderate product, you can't really fulfill both discounting and minimum pricing obligations.  So you have a choice, sell average "commodity" product to people who dont understand what a rip off ALL vision "insurance" is, or sell top notch, unique and expensive product to people that dont need insurance and don't care how much it costs anyhow (yes there are plenty of them out there).  If your business can't live without them, you likely need to come up with another reason to get customers in the door because those who come to you because you "accept" their "insurance" will leave you in a second when you no longer "accept" it (or get it yanked away).  Just my humble opinion and i'm sure many will agree.

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## EyeSeeYou

> Well, as a retailer, I hate VSP. Of course I have posted that before. I mean they have it worked out that basically we get reimbursed my cost on the frame. Now we have to take off another 20%. There goes any shot of profit at all on a frame. 
> 
> I like to work for free, dont you?  :hammer:


Lately, we've had more and more VSP members mentioning the extra 20% off they get in addition to their frame discount....

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## cocoisland58

> Lately, we've had more and more VSP members mentioning the extra 20% off they get in addition to their frame discount....


 
VSP actually called me on that one years ago. I explained our mark-up on frames was less than some so we did not further discount to anyone. The VSP representative asked me if we were refusing to honor our provider agreement.  I said, certainly not(eyes rolling) and thanked her for calling my attention to it. And then I proceeded to mark-up every frame in the store to reflect our "new pricing structure".  Consumers want to know why prices keep going up? Managed care is one very good reason.

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## pauly47

OK 2 things...1) Oakley sets prices and don't allow for "discounting"
2) VSP is VISION INSURANCE..not for Plano sunglasses.  Can't use benefit that way.  There are certain frame lines that are off limits to VSP (or other vision insurance discounts).

Juliets are available to "select" dealers.  You have to do enough biz with Oakley to be able to order.  Custom Oakley orders are non-refundable.  If he can't get them, you should get $$ back...take it to small claims court...

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## daysofsun

We could talk about VSP for days but, the original issue is the item you selected.  I am familiar with it.  Juliet Ruby lens could be as much as 8-10 years old. It was released in limited quantities initially.  It was the same sunglass that was later used in the movie X Men.  The first one.  Also, I doubt this sunglass was ever made with the intention of being RX'd. I don't think Oakley does that lens RX (ruby) either.  I would not jump to any conclusions on this one frame because I think you picked the exception and not the rule.

If still want it I bet you could order any black juliet and then pick which lens you want? (you don't need the original ones anyway)

I hope this helps.
Good luck.

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## mikeh

Check your VSP Provider Agreement for "Premium Sunglasses" VSP recognizes that the margins are not the same.

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## daysofsun

> OK 2 things...1) Oakley sets prices and don't allow for "discounting"
> 2) VSP is VISION INSURANCE..not for Plano sunglasses. Can't use benefit that way. There are certain frame lines that are off limits to VSP (or other vision insurance discounts).
> 
> Juliets are available to "select" dealers. You have to do enough biz with Oakley to be able to order. Custom Oakley orders are non-refundable. If he can't get them, you should get $$ back...take it to small claims court...


 You only use half of the information on your quotes  1)oakley limits advertising to being authorized. Oakley does not have a msrp on ophthalmic frames or rx lenses but, does have a msrp  for plano's sold as sun.  In this example the customer is looking for an rx job..2) the juliet can't be sold plano but you could order it as an RX job thru their lab as RX Frame and Lens.  (but again i don't think they rx the ruby lens.)(they do have some similar lenses though)

Secondly, as I remeber Juliet was limited intitailly so that their better dealers had access, but was openly sold to every one soon after.  Now that style and color  is apparently disconintued.  I even checked oakley.com and it is not sold plano there either.

http://oakley.com/pd/1274/2658

You could have it build to order as plano but why would you when you are going to place rx lenses in them any way.

http://oakley.com/custom/juliet

you are correct that you could not return them but, it is understable that you could not return a pair of sunglasses that you had custom made.

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