# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Entry Requirements

## wmcdonald

If you have read this board for any length of time, you realize I am one of the voices espousing more stringent requirements for entry into Opticianry. Education is at the forefront of my argument. I strongly believe we must, if we are to survive, mandate a formal education requirement and licensure in every state. This would allow us to have more relevance in the eye care community, and to outside parties as well.

Another issue that is important is the national certification process. We allow almost anyone with little to no training to ake the ABO/NCLE and they have approximately a 60% pass rate. I feel this is inadequate, and should be more stringent. The ABO/NCLE is a cash cow, and increasing requirements may limit their income, but I for one would like to see this accomplished for the benefit of the profession in the long run, and to the patients/customers/clients (or whatever you feel we need to call those we serve). I have had some difficulty expressing that appropriately, but ran across a post from another discussion board I felt was right up this alley. It relates to CPAs and their fudiciary duty to clients. Do we have a similar professional responsibility?

_I'm a CPA. From the AICPA perspective, they'd make more $$ if more people were allowed to take the exam. So why make it stringent? Why make the requirements tough? Why not open it up to anyone and everyone and enjoy the short-term benefit? The reason? We believe CPAs have a duty to protect the public and states license CPAs as a result. Some things go beyond the bottom line, my friend. Our government is built on the notion that there are aspects of our society that commerce cannot and will not support. 
_
We need to educate and train our folks better, and reqire some level of significant testing prior to entry into the profession. It is difficult when the main requirement in 27 states currently is a pulse, but only when we improve ourselves continually can we really say we have met our duty to the public. I would love to hear your comments.

Warren

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## Roy R. Ferguson

Hi Warren:

You and I have been playing this one note drum for more years than I would like to remember.   To my knowledge no one has ever provided an adequate answer.  It’s frustrating to realize that we are the only health related field that can be entered with *NO* education.  To add insult to injury, most licensed states do not even require a formal apprenticeship.  Training consists of show up, hang out for three or four years, sell the second pair, and take the ABO/NCLE until a passing score is achieved.  Then, *BINGO*, you are a licensed optician.  In unlicensed states you only have show up; all else is optional.

In my humble opinion, the reason this field has never embraced education is because most of the leadership lacks such a background and views an educated professional optician as a threat.  Over the years I’ve hoped for positive change, but now believe that opticianry has embraced ignorance so tightly that the two can never be separated. 

Roy

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## Barry Santini

> Hi Warren:
> 
> You and I have been playing this one note drum for more years than I would like to remember. To my knowledge no one has ever provided an adequate answer. It’s frustrating to realize that we are the only health related field that can be entered with *NO* education. To add insult to injury, most licensed states do not even require a formal apprenticeship. Training consists of show up, hang out for three or four years, sell the second pair, and take the ABO/NCLE until a passing score is achieved. Then, *BINGO*, you are a licensed optician. In unlicensed states you only have show up; all else is optional.
> 
> In my humble opinion, the reason this field has never embraced education is because most of the leadership lacks such a background and views an educated professional optician as a threat. Over the years I’ve hoped for positive change, but now believe that opticianry has embraced ignorance so tightly that the two can never be separated. 
> 
> Roy


And the reason I believe that no education has been the norm for us is that, even though we're medically-related, the risk of "harm" with improperly made eyewear is very low. The FDA has said the eyewear is in the lowest category of risk of any medical device.

Of course, I believe that secondary consequential risks of harm, i.e., auto accidents from indequate acuity or fusion, has not been properly, statisticcally and scientificaly quantified.

And further, I think what the three of us desire is better than just adequate for eyewear dispensing.
This *does* take education. I believe that the newer products and technology, if properly presented, can motivate the eyewear buying public to seek out and be willing to pay for more excellence than they do at present.

My 2 cents.

Barry

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## wmcdonald

So correct me if I am wrong, Barry. No real harm should not even require we hold a professional a license, correct? Licenses are there to protect the public, and if we can do no harm, then maybe we should not require them? I totally agree, unless we are moving towards a higher level of service. Opticians were licensed in the US basically because we were able to prove we may cause harm to the human eye because we fitted contact lenses in the initial states. Those that followed did it based on the neighboring states licensure. I want to see us do more, as many others do. I want to move beyond spectacle dispensing, adding more clinical services including low vision and contact lenses. We should be able manage.....and not just say we are managers, but know the real way to manage an organization. I want to see us expand into other clinical areas. Refraction is one, if we get the requisite education and training. We could be the PAs and NPs of the eye care world. The way it is now, anyone can do what we do legally in most places. We must do better!

I am not so sure I agree with your concept of the public's willingness to pay for "excellence". We EXPECT excellence from our health care providers. You go to a physician and expect they have achieved some level of competence. Opticians have fooled them too long. The study done in NY in the 90s indicated that the consumer thought we held a bachelors degree, like pharmacists back then. They EXPECT we have some level of education that prepares us for practice, and sadly that is not correct. I know..... NY, and Florida (that is a lower borough, isn't it?), NC and a few others require something to get in, but even in most licensed states it is simple. We have to do better. We need to develop a focused organization to lead us into the future. I want to see Opticians continually improve out lot, and we have not done that. We have sat on our posteriors and watched, as ODs advanced. We must do better!

I appreciate your comments, but I also wish you would address the question posed in paragraph 2 of my initial post. Is the CPA concept regarding testing one we need to adopt? The ABO is ridiculously simplistic for someone with any level of education. If we tighten up a bit, and demand that Opticians at least know some optics, we will be better for it. Education is key to our success. Letting anyone with a pulse take a basic exam does not make them a professional as many seem to feel. We must do better!

Warren

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## rbaker

As the graduate of one of the first two year programs of opticianry in the US I was an early supporter of formal education for both opticians and ophthalmic technologists. My early career was blessed with employment with two independent opticians whose craft and business sense was second to none so that in addition to academics I was privileged to sit at the feet of masters.

Full of **** (oops, urine) and vinegar I became very active in both state and national professional organizations and served on Boards of Directors and was President of my State Society of Dispensing Opticians. Thus began my real education.

In the late sixties nearly all retail opticians were independent or worked for optometric practices. When your name was on the sign; i.e. Emil Katow, Optician or Joe Badin, OD, a good portion of your reputation rested upon the shoulders of your employees. Quite simply stated, you did not have a bozo selling glasses in your shop. It was during this time when we first started to see corporate chains enter the business. Cripes, we called an emergency meeting of our state society when it was announced that a Pearle Vision  Center was moving into the state. The reaction of my colleagues to this event was my first indication that things were not going to bode well for opticians in the coming years.

Quite simply, the majority of businesses are owned by Rumplestilskin Inc. located on the other coast or in some foreign company. Their market focus is based upon selling to the market majority, (in the chair, outta the chair, PAL with all the bells and whistles) and if it don’t work give them a new pair (no harm – no foul.) This business model hits the sweet spot of the market (most return for least investment) and does not require anything resembling a professional optician – in fact, it actually refutes any great degree of skill.

The main issue however, which seems to be unanswered is whether opticians are professionals or craftsmen. I firmly believe that they never were professionals, are not today, nor will ever be. Opticianry is a craft and not a profession. In point of fact, today it is neither a profession nor a craft – it is nothing except in the eye of the individual practitioner. The best that can be said is that a few states require licensing/registration and that there are a few schools cranking out students. 

As long as opticians keep their collective heads in the sand and refuse to take a realistic look at themselves the craft will continue to decline.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

> The ABO is ridiculously simplistic for someone with any level of education. If we tighten up a bit, and demand that Opticians at least know some optics, we will be better for it. 
> Warren


For the November 15, 2009 ABO exam in Tennessee, the candidates achieved a 51.52% pass rate.  If I'm not mistaken the nationwide pass rate was 52.67.  The last practical examination I administered in Tennessee had a 40% pass rate.  Comments?

Roy

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## Barry Santini

Dick,

As far as the idea of craftsmen, I agree with you.

But, as many of the optiboarders who post regularly here will attest, what we do today is SOOOO much more than a craft.  The way the schools teach it, even at present, is primarily as a craft.

But I and others here look at ourselves with our comprehensive skill sets and present oruselves as available eyecare gatekeepers.  My clients don't need no stinkin' appointment, and they realy on me and my willingness to read learn and keep abreast of the information, literature and the times as a reliable source of authoratative information on eys and visioncare.  Unfortunately, the insurance-subsidized examination part of vision care really does not.  This is the root reason why the Rx  "hand-off" is considered so essential to maintaining a profitable business in an refracting office at present.

Warren:
 I've got Wise-Eyes, Costcos Walmarts and the internet all around me.  And as much as my clients, more than ever, point out that they choose to come to me despite the other (cheaper) choices, they vote with their feet and wallet by continuing to believe and patronize my practice. So I do believe the public will seek out excellen

"Our government is built on the notion that there are aspects of our society that commerce cannot and will not support."

This is the central ongoing debate of our republic. But as far as I can see, and tendency toward this end is routinely colored as socialism, with all its apparent negative flavors.

Bottom line, Warren:  Formalized Opticianry Education is "push" - what I and others like Robert Martellaro here on Optiboard bring to the public's table is "pull".  Honestly, I've got too much to learn and keep up with everyday to try to change the inertia of the opticianry education establishment in this country about the way they've been going about this is all wrong and out of date in so many ways.

Teaching the skills of providing the *comprehensive eyewear experience* is not done by continual deferring to the doctor and their implied authority about eyewear.  They really don't have time for it.  This, then, is our domain.  But graduates today are not at all ready to begin their journeymanship with their current degree in hand.  And when I talk to principles of these schools, I come away with the feeling that they have been away from the front line of dispensing so long that they've lost touch with the current dynamics and changes at the dispensing desk.

I don't think we're anywhere close to obtaining a consensus about what we should be "pushing" student to learn. Rather, I think that those who will excel in our field will always recognize that their education and learning never ends, nor do they want it to. Therefore, with the availability of the internet, the information those interested parties want is available almost to all.  It seems that the idea of "formal schooling" may also be eroding today.

Hell, I can't teach in *any* school in this country because I don't possess a bachelor's degree.  Yet, so many tell me that they enjoy my lectures and writings and seminars, and learn from them.  Heck, I've learned so much from you over the years.  Yet, we weren't in a school environment, were we?

It's all about "want/pull", for the ECP and the public.  I'm sorry to say that I think the idea of "need/push" may have had its day for opticianry education.

On the other hand, I'd be the first in line to argue that a 4 year education/degree is essential to begin equipping opticianry graduates for what they must begin to bring to the dispensing table. I'm just not at all ready to continue to argue this point with the current, entrenched mass of the feebleminded.

Barry

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## hcjilson

As one who came up in this industry through an apprenticeship program I was a strong believer in the system. It was one of the ways I worked my way through college. I received my degree the year I was licensed in Massachusetts and I held the view that a degree in management plus licensure through apprenticeship was all you needed for success. I held that sophmoric view for quite sometime, and in fact, did quite well professionally, thinking very little about the profession and its future.

Some years ago I had the good fortune to meet Dr's Macdonald and Ferguson who took the time (and considerable patience on their part) to re-educate me concerning the reality of why opticianry was failing to advance itself professionally. Much of their concentration appears, or will appear in this thread so I ask you all to please think about what is written here and act wherever possible to make the changes necessary for the advancement of opticianry.

The wonderful epiphany born of educatation is the simple realization that the more you learn the more you have to learn. The more you know, the more there is to know. Continuing education is not a myth, it is not a punishment, it is not to promote companies,....continuing education is a necessity.

Opticianry's problems are twofold. The first problem to address is legislative. In what state in America can you practice medicine, optometry, architecture funeral direction, or hairdressing without a license?.........think about that for a moment..........yet, in over half the states, all you need is a pulse to be an optician.

When OAA was formed, Jerry Miller told me it was their mission to promote licensing in ALL states. They have failed miserably in that regard. In a large part we're all responsible for that becuase we just sat around and were happy with the status quo. We were doing ok so who cared about Pennsylvainia, Texas and Wyoming? Before anything can happen, that has to change, because progress needs unity, and unity can only come from uniform need. If all states become licensed, minimum qualifications for licensure can be established.

On a historical note, Rhode Island took the bull by the horns and established an assoiciates degree as a prerequisite for licensure. It is my understanding that they backed off because there were so few qualified candidates. If an associates degree becomes mandatory we must insure there are institutions offering an optical degree, and students to fill the seats.

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## Johns

> In a large part we're all responsible for that becuase we just sat around and were happy with the status quo. We were doing ok so who cared about Pennsylvainia, Texas and Wyoming? Before anything can happen, that has to change, because progress needs unity, and unity can only come from uniform need. If all states become licensed, minimum qualifications for licensure can be established.


Not entirely true.  When Pa. was on the verge of licensure about 10 years ago, our local association petitioned the state of Ohio to send them money to help with the effort.  They flatly said "no", so we, as a local group (on more than one occasion) sent money (more than $3,000) to them ourselves.   This was out of our own coffers, raised by our seminars and other fundraisers.  

Yes, there is often a large amount of apathy on the state levels, but not always at the locals.

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## CNG

Warren, I think you are a natural leader. You are so bright and well intentioned about opticianry . I would like to request that you be nominate or work towards being our leader in our national association so you can make changes. A leader is the problem, so how do we go about it? I have confidence in you. I beg you please get us out of the impoverish profession and make us shine again.

CNG

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## rbaker

> Warren, I think you are a natural leader. You are so bright and well intentioned about opticianry . I would like to request that you be nominate or work towards being our leader in our national association so you can make changes. A leader is the problem, so how do we go about it? I have confidence in you. I beg you please get us out of the impoverish profession and make us shine again.
> 
> CNG



Two problems here. 

First: Let come to some sort of consensus on the definition, scope of practice and skill set that would be required for entry into the craft. This requires organization. It also demands individuals who are willing to stand up and make waves. These individuals are few and far between.

Second: In addition to well intentioned people you need money and organization. I'm not talking about chump money but large bucks of money. Lets start out with everyone who supports an education agenda ponying up $5,000.00. We would need $100,000.00 in every state to get us started.

Don't place the burden of change on just a few individuals who are, I believe, in the minority.

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## hcjilson

Entry requirements need to be uniform from state to state. Currently, for a number of reasons, (mainly protectionist in my opinion) you cannot get states to agree on one set of standards for all states. You cannot get Virginia to agree that a PD is the same in VA as it is in FL. You cannot get FL to agree that neutralization is the same in FL as it is in MA, or that contact lenses (invented by an optician) can be fit in CT but not in TN. It's a hodge podge and until that mess is straightened out nothing can happen.

If all states would adopt an entry level which mandated an associates degree a lot of the above problems would disappear, however you would never be able to get the optometrists behind an optician's ability to fit and dispense contact lenses. Professional jealousy (and protectionism again) are at the root of this problem and frankly is one of the reasons opticians reamain fractured in their advancement.

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## rbaker

> Entry requirements need to be uniform from state to state. Currently, for a number of reasons, (mainly protectionist in my opinion) you cannot get states to agree on one set of standards for all states. You cannot get Virginia to agree that a PD is the same in VA as it is in FL. You cannot get FL to agree that neutralization is the same in FL as it is in MA, or that contact lenses (invented by an optician) can be fit in CT but not in TN. It's a hodge podge and until that mess is straightened out nothing can happen.
> 
> If all states would adopt an entry level which mandated an associates degree a lot of the above problems would disappear, however you would never be able to get the optometrists behind an optician's ability to fit and dispense contact lenses. Professional jealousy (and protectionism again) are at the root of this problem and frankly is one of the reasons opticians reamain fractured in their advancement.


Licensing/registration is the responsibility of each state, independent of any national standards. While individual states may require the national ABO to set the standards we have seen a dumbing down of standards. The ABO represents that portion of the craft that does not promote the highest of standards . . . unfortunately, no one does.

Why has Massachusetts (and many other states) accepted this low standard of knowledge and education? What actually would prevent Massachusetts from requiring a formal two year program followed by a two year apprenticeship to sit for the state boards? 

We all know the answer to that one. Therein lies the problem.

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## wmcdonald

> Two problems here. 
> 
> First: Let come to some sort of consensus on the definition, scope of practice and skill set that would be required for entry into the craft. This requires organization. It also demands individuals who are willing to stand up and make waves. These individuals are few and far between.
> 
> Second: In addition to well intentioned people you need money and organization. I'm not talking about chump money but large bucks of money. Lets start out with everyone who supports an education agenda ponying up $5,000.00. We would need $100,000.00 in every state to get us started.
> 
> Don't place the burden of change on just a few individuals who are, I believe, in the minority.


 
Some view us as craftspeople. The public, based on the NY study, saw us then as professionals, and I believe that many who entered the field see themselves as professionals. That is all semantics, however. Multiple studies were done that refute your position. My own indicated vast support from the people who wanted to be educated at a higher level, and supported the need for greater education. They supported moving to expand the scope into CLs, Low Vision, and even refraction. These resultes were posted here, and discussed many times. 

You make several valid points, but you speak to what is and was. I speak to what can be. We must make our own path, and follow it. You are ABSOLUTELY correct. It takes a LOT of money, but there are more out there that support us that you may believe, and many are ODs and MDs. The chains need people, and now recognize a need to folks who know what they are doing. It will take a huge amount of work, but it can be done. Show these wonderful people what can be, and they will support, much like Optometry did many years ago. We can follow a path to greater success if we wish to do so, and there are enough of us to make a difference. I would hope you would consider how we may move forward and help us.

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## wmcdonald

> Entry requirements need to be uniform from state to state. Currently, for a number of reasons, (mainly protectionist in my opinion) you cannot get states to agree on one set of standards for all states. You cannot get Virginia to agree that a PD is the same in VA as it is in FL. You cannot get FL to agree that neutralization is the same in FL as it is in MA, or that contact lenses (invented by an optician) can be fit in CT but not in TN. It's a hodge podge and until that mess is straightened out nothing can happen.
> 
> If all states would adopt an entry level which mandated an associates degree a lot of the above problems would disappear, however you would never be able to get the optometrists behind an optician's ability to fit and dispense contact lenses. Professional jealousy (and protectionism again) are at the root of this problem and frankly is one of the reasons opticians reamain fractured in their advancement.


Harry,
You hit the nail on the head. The reasons Opticians cannot agree across state lines is multi-facted, but it comes down to the different definitions of Optician across those borders. If we had a clear and defined education and training cucrricula in all jurisdictions, that would go away. We have a bunch of high school educated folks who have no education telling us we do not need it. Why, because thay don't want anyone to get ahead of them. The Emperor has no clothes! How do they get elected? We elect them. Seek to find new faces in your states, and make sure they have an appreciation of education even if they lack it. We need to think proactively. My time is almost over......new faces are needed, now, that can move us forward.

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## wmcdonald

Barry,
You are a very bright man, and I appreciate you. But you, like others look to what is, and I want feel we (this "profession") need to strategically plan for the future, not mire oursleves in this past. We all have chain operations around us, and if we follow your model, we can succeed competitively, but what will happen when we are gone. I want this to be a better place when I leave, and it REQUIRES a push. Making people aware of the need for change can be difficult, but if we just do it, it wil be so worth the effort.

Warren

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## wmcdonald

> Warren, I think you are a natural leader. You are so bright and well intentioned about opticianry . I would like to request that you be nominate or work towards being our leader in our national association so you can make changes. A leader is the problem, so how do we go about it? I have confidence in you. I beg you please get us out of the impoverish profession and make us shine again.
> 
> CNG


I greatly appreciate your confidence in me, but I am near the end of my career. We need new folks. Join OAA and the state associations. Make yourselves heard and changhe this thing. It is not too late.

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## Jacqui

I'm a big believer in a combination of both education and apprenticeship. First an A.A.S. degree and then at least 2 years as an apprentice, starting in the lab, before a journeyman's license is given and 3 - 5 more years for a Master's license. A good thorough test should be given at each step to ensure competency. I feel this is the only way that the public will re-accept us as professionals. I don't know if the states themselves will go for this, it may be necessary to call in the Federal government and have a national license.

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## Chris Ryser

> *In what state in America can you practice medicine, optometry, architecture funeral direction, or hairdressing without a license?.........think about that for a moment..........yet, in over half the states, all you need is a pulse to be an optician.
> *
> 
> *Before anything can happen, that has to change, because progress needs unity, and unity can only come from uniform need. If all states become licensed, minimum qualifications for licensure can be established*.


Harry is totally right........................... take your examples in Europe

The oldest democracy in the world, Switzerland, with its 24 Cantons (States in the USA or Provinces in Canada) there is only one license that makes you an optician and it is valid in every Canton. Further more most European countries licenses from many other countries are acepted on a reciprocal basis. However to manage a store you need a masters degree. That is a heck of a lot more qualifications needed than on this side oft the big pond.

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## MarySue

> So correct me if I am wrong, Barry. No real harm should not even require we hold a professional a license, correct? Licenses are there to protect the public, and if we can do no harm, then maybe we should not require them? 
> Warren


Warren, in New Zealand we have a registration maintained with the Ministry of Health.  Because of the "low risk of harm" as Barry explained it - anyone in the country may do the work of a dispensing optician, as long as they don't call themselves one.  It's frustrating for sure.  There are stringent requirements for registration based on education, the place you received your education, etc.  Yet we have the added bonus of our clients assuming that everyone who works in the field is trained.  

It's the equivalent to the USA version of flying from Virginia to Illinois - and receiving two completely different types of service.  No licensure in IL, but VA is great!  So within the States - you can be either.

My understanding is that a license would restrict activity - such as that in VA, where Opticians are deemed "important, valuable, and necessary" to the whole art of spectacles and contacts.  Registration, such as we have, is meant to enable - allowing D.O.'s to increase their scope of practice.  It hasn't though, as the politics of this little dance continue to plague the industry.

I think the answer lies in the Optometric community understanding we're colleagues, not competitors.  The optometrist on the other side of town isn't seen as wrong, yet a fully qualified, educated, licensed d.o. is.  Go figure.

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## wmcdonald

There is no such thing as a national license. In this representative republic we call America that function is delegated to the states. In licensed states, a license is a license. There is no master's license, only a validation the individual is competent to practice. We cannot change the system of licensure, only work within it.

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## wmcdonald

But Mary Sue......we ARE competitors. Optometry studies for a minium of 90 semester hours of undergraduate credit, and most schools require a bachelor's degree for admission. Then 4 years of Optometry School. 70% of their income typically comes from the fitting and dispensing of spectacles and contact lenses. We have the vast requirement of a pulse in 27 states, and wonder why they show us no respect. In the US, the enemy is not without......it is within. Apathy, and a lack of understanding of the value of education is why Opticians languish in this quagmire of mediocrity we find ourselves in. And we STILL can't see it. WE can do better.

Taking a very basic 100-125 question multiple choice exam, with no other requirements prior to testing does not make a professional. Which goes back to the original question I presented. CPAs require much prior to entry. Should we? 

Warren

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## Barry Santini

I honestly don't see that the current syllabus covered by the current ABO exam covers is all that bad.

It's the syllabus that is incomplete. And there's no practical companion exam with the ABO.

In a way, our plight mirrors that of teaching:

There is an increasing desire, particularly strongly-voiced at present by the Obama administration, to raise the quality of teaching and teachers. Merit pay is but one suggested remedy.

But an article I just read in the March 8th edition of the NY Times magazine outlines the current problem with the teaching of teachers, as well as how we got here from there. It also lists many terrific teaching techniques that will improve the performance of *any* teacher.

But one thing was mentioned that smacked of our central problem: We graduate them, and throw them into the classromm without supervision or further day-to-day oversight. They mentioned that this is a main reason so many novice teachers are ineffective in the classroom.

Take a look for yourself:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/ma...l?pagewanted=2


Barry

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## cmhargrove

Warren, I am trying to fully understand your position.

Are you advocating that anyone that ever sells RX eyewear be certified?
What about the lab personnel that grind the lenses, certified?
If adjusters are a different group, certified as well?
Or, are you saying that like an Optometry practice, there can be a "Certified" owner/manager that still has "apprentices" or "technicians" working for them?

Thanks.

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## hcjilson

> Are you advocating that anyone that ever [sic] sells RX eyewear be certified?


Yes.




> What about the lab personnel that grind the lenses, certified?


Only if they dispense eyewear to the public, however that is not a bad idea!




> If adjusters are a different group, certified as well?


Any attempt to modify, adapt or fit a frame is considered dispensing. There are no "adjusters", it's a term I have not heard before and am unfamiliar with.

I do  not presume to speak for Dr Mcdonald but I thought I would approach your question from a regulatory standpoint.

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## wmcdonald

It has absolutely nothing to do with lab technicians. I am describing Opticians who analyze, design, fit and dispense eyeglasses and contact lenses to the public, based on the Rx provided by the prescriber. I am saying Opticians need more education and training, and to expand beyond the traditional scope. The reason this is not clear to you, is that you are from a state where Opticians require nothing to use the title. Anyone can be an Optician there legally. I mean no disrespect, but if you were from another area of the country.....NC, NY, Fla, and Ohio that have stringent requirements to use the title, it would be more clear. I am simply saying we need to do like every other health-related profession and require some formal education and a licensing process. But that was not the emphasis or question for this thread. We have debated that thousands of times here.

I am also not suggesting anyone who touches a pair of spectacles be "certified". I actually despise that title. We certify beef and poultry products. We education, train and license professionals. We should be the responsible professionals and yes, we may have others who work for us like techs and assistants.

Like most things here, the thread has gone off in a different direction. Go back to the first post on the thread and look at the requirements so sit for the CPA exam. They have a different slant. They make it tough to sit for the exam. We take anyone with $100.00 and allow them to sit, with virtually no requirements. My question to the board......is that good, or should we improve the standards?

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## wmcdonald

> I honestly don't see that the current syllabus covered by the current ABO exam covers is all that bad.
> 
> It's the syllabus that is incomplete. And there's no practical companion exam with the ABO.
> 
> In a way, our plight mirrors that of teaching:
> 
> There is an increasing desire, particularly strongly-voiced at present by the Obama administration, to raise the quality of teaching and teachers. Merit pay is but one suggested remedy.
> 
> But an article I just read in the March 8th edition of the NY Times magazine outlines the current problem with the teaching of teachers, as well as how we got here from there. It also lists many terrific teaching techniques that will improve the performance of *any* teacher.
> ...


 

Hi Barry,
If quoted in the NY times, I know it must be fair and balanced, but as an educator, I can tell you this. You cannot educate folks who wish not to be educated. That is the problem with public education. You can't flunk someone in public school because you have a grudge against them, or you are prejudiced against them for some reason. There are 1000 excuses the PS teachers hear all the time. They socially promote as required by the system today. It is indeed a shame. When we were coming up, our parents spent time with us, making sure we did our best. We tried to circumvent the process by playing hookey, but we, more often than not, got caught and paid a price. Not so today......it has to be the teachers fault. You can use all the techniques you want, but it will not help until we gain some respect for education. The article is correct in that point. But again, this has little to do with the subject. 

There IS no "syllabus" for the ABO. A syllabus is designed to provide direction for students in a particular course, not as an overarching guide to educating and training a professional. I think the ABO is a decent test overall, but 50-60% pass rates with almost 0 prep? We can do better. Prepare these folks for the world and give them a real chance to survive. A college education teaches you to think critically, to be able to communicate at a hiugher level, to be more knowledgeable in many ways. I see no wrong in that. 

Practial evaluations would be better evaluated during a rigirous process inside a School of Opticianry. Practical exams delivered outside that environment can be subject to extreme subjectivity based solely on the individual expriences of the examiners. By reading this very board that is too broad to be an effective measure of anything. Hell, we still debate the use of PD sticks versus pupillometers. We remain in the 19th century, and should at least get into the 20th. 

You mention that many of the schools are behind. When did you last visit City Tech and see the new quipment and all the things they teach? They do a fantastic job. Do they teach old stuff as well? Of course. That is how we build upon the base of knowledge, by starting at the beginning. 

I know you want us to improve, and realize you have a great mind. I simply continue to be amazed at how people, especially those like you, can not support education. If the system is broken, we have 2 choices, fix it, ot give up. I refuse to give up and hope others do not as well. very other heal-related profession did away with apprenticeships long ago, and went to a formal structure to educate and train future professionals. We must as well. That does not mean take away practical training......but formalize it into a process that is actually measurable. 

Enough of this......I belabor the point

Warren

----------


## kcount

> My question to the board......is that good, or should we improve the standards?


Dr. McDonald, thank you for refocusing the thread. 

Yes, the requirements need to be changed. Many years ago I talked with representatives at the ABO/NCLE regarding the certification process, especially the testing. My issue then is the same now. The optician they are 'certifying' has very little resemblance to the optician we are today. Opticians today spend more time managing a business, a staff, conducting patient triage and general care. Analysis, design and dispensing of eyewear is only a small facet of their daily activities. Yet this is what the certifying board focuses on. Knowing how to apply Snell's Law is all well and good, but does it have a practical application in todays world? Does my ability to describe the wave lengths of light transmitted by a gray 3 lens help when I have a patient in pain walking through the door? The ABO as a testing organization is simply testing and focusing on points that are non-actionable. The knowledge of these points may rounds out our abilities, but, in 20 years I have never memorized ANSI standards, for the simple reason that they are posted in my lab.

A basic exam that has little basic practical application is a test that means very little. Barry is correct. If there is to be an exam, it needs a practical component. There should be exams with panels of proctors to see if the candidate has that knowledge necessary to function in an office. They should know how to analyze, design, fit, and dispense eyewear. But, they should also know how to maintain patient flow, patient triage (both phone and face-to-face), handle customer care, have a working knowledge of contacts lenses, anatomy, patient psychology, consumer behavior, etc. I recognize it's been 20 years since I last sat for the ABO, but my working with recent certificant's would tell me the test has simply gotten easier. and to be honest it wasn't hard back then. 

I'll end on the same note I ended it with the ABO. The ABO simply no longer defines what I do as an optician. The courses offered have little to do with my practice and are rudimentary at best. The ABO no-longer defines what an optician is. To change its focus will take a leader with the capacity to see beyond what it is today.

I will preempt Dr. McDonald's next post and state yes, I am in a non-licensed state so my view point may be slanted. In the eyes of the consumer the 'title' optician has the same weight here as it does in a licensed state, it simply costs me less. I say this as someone that has worked in both licensed and un-licensed states.

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## cmhargrove

> Yes.
> 
> Only if they dispense eyewear to the public, however that is not a bad idea!
> 
> Any attempt to modify, adapt or fit a frame is considered dispensing. There are no "adjusters", it's a term I have not heard before and am unfamiliar with.
> 
> I do  not presume to speak for Dr Mcdonald but I thought I would approach your question from a regulatory standpoint.


I apologize for my colloquial terms, this site is generally populated by pretty easy going practitioners.

One might use the term "adjuster" for someone who adjusts eyeglasses.  I was just referring to different components of the workplace, not trying to quote regulations verbatim.   Maybe it's just a term like "Pop" or "Soda" depending on where you practice.  My customers (patients) generally ask for their glasses to be "adjusted," so I oblige by doing so.

----------


## cmhargrove

> Dr. McDonald, thank you for refocusing the thread. 
> 
> Yes, the requirements need to be changed. Many years ago I talked with representatives at the ABO/NCLE regarding the certification process, especially the testing. My issue then is the same now. The optician they are 'certifying' has very little resemblance to the optician we are today. Opticians today spend more time managing a business, a staff, conducting patient triage and general care. Analysis, design and dispensing of eyewear is only a small facet of their daily activities. Yet this is what the certifying board focuses on. Knowing how to apply Snell's Law is all well and good, but does it have a practical application in todays world? Does my ability to describe the wave lengths of light transmitted by a gray 3 lens help when I have a patient in pain walking through the door? The ABO as a testing organization is simply testing and focusing on points that are non-actionable. The knowledge of these points may rounds out our abilities, but, in 20 years I have never memorized ANSI standards, for the simple reason that they are posted in my lab.
> 
> A basic exam that has little basic practical application is a test that means very little. Barry is correct. If there is to be an exam, it needs a practical component. There should be exams with panels of proctors to see if the candidate has that knowledge necessary to function in an office. They should know how to analyze, design, fit, and dispense eyewear. But, they should also know how to maintain patient flow, patient triage (both phone and face-to-face), handle customer care, have a working knowledge of contacts lenses, anatomy, patient psychology, consumer behavior, etc. I recognize it's been 20 years since I last sat for the ABO, but my working with recent certificant's would tell me the test has simply gotten easier. and to be honest it wasn't hard back then. 
> 
> I'll end on the same note I ended it with the ABO. The ABO simply no longer defines what I do as an optician. The courses offered have little to do with my practice and are rudimentary at best. The ABO no-longer defines what an optician is. To change its focus will take a leader with the capacity to see beyond what it is today.
> 
> I will preempt Dr. McDonald's next post and state yes, I am in a non-licensed state so my view point may be slanted. In the eyes of the consumer the 'title' optician has the same weight here as it does in a licensed state, it simply costs me less. I say this as someone that has worked in both licensed and un-licensed states.


Well said.

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## tigerlilly

It's never going to happen while the retail sector controls such a large share of the entire optical industry. So many of the retailers prefer inexperienced, uncredentialed workers in order to keep wages down. They've got millions with which to lobby elected officials (coughcoughFairnesstoContactLensConsumersActcoughcough) and defeat any attempts at national licensure, or even bringing the non-licensed states aboard the licensing train.

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## hcjilson

That may well have been the case years ago but I think even the big box retailers have now recognized that an adequately trained and credentialed employee is in their best interest. I know of at least 3 large companies that have adopted carreer progression programs and offer excellent educational opportunities for their employees and closely monitor things like CE's and compliance. An educated staff add's more to the bottom line than one which is not.

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## Wes

And we go on and on.
We license professionals.  Drs, Dentists, Nurses...  We certify tradesmen.  Mechanics, Plumbers...  What do YOU want to be?  Things rarely stay the same.  They tend to get better or worse.  This "field" seems to be on a long downhill slide.  So, we can keep losing our knowledge and skill, we can be reduced to salespeople, or we can go the other direction.  We can improve our lot.  I'm with Warren on this one.  He and Roy could easily say "The heck with all of you"!  These guys have PhDs! They claim opticianry because they love the field.  Wake up and listen before your chance to act is gone.  I could leave this field for business management, optical or otherwise, or I could go back into the computer field.  I like opticianry.  I like working with my hands as a lab tech.  I like being one of the best, most qualified dispensers in my locale.  I like helping others to see, and I don't care if they spend a lot to do it or a litttle.  Why are YOU doing this?  Think about it...
Those without higher education say it isn't needed.  Those without higher certification say it is meaningless.  Of course they do.  Because to admit otherwise makes them take a long hard look in the mirror. 
Those in charge of the boards and organizations generally don't have formal education.  They dont want it or need it.  They have the good ol boy network.  The same few people keep sitting on the state and national association boards, and the state licensing boards, those of you that have them.  Keep doing the same thing you're doing. You'll keep getting the same results.  
Vote for all new leadership.  They can't be worse.  Push for licensure for your state, and others..  What Johns' locale did was damn impressive.  Kudos!  Get an education, formal if you can.  Find a Master to learn from.  Get every certification you can.  DO SOMETHING!

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## kcount

I say we run for office in the OAA.




> And we go on and on.
> We license professionals.  Drs, Dentists, Nurses...  We certify tradesmen.  Mechanics, Plumbers...  What do YOU want to be?  Things rarely stay the same.  They tend to get better or worse.  This "field" seems to be on a long downhill slide.  So, we can keep losing our knowledge and skill, we can be reduced to salespeople, or we can go the other direction.  We can improve our lot.  I'm with Warren on this one.  He and Roy could easily say "The heck with all of you"!  These guys have PhDs! They claim opticianry because they love the field.  Wake up and listen before your chance to act is gone.  I could leave this field for business management, optical or otherwise, or I could go back into the computer field.  I like opticianry.  I like working with my hands as a lab tech.  I like being one of the best, most qualified dispensers in my locale.  I like helping others to see, and I don't care if they spend a lot to do it or a litttle.  Why are YOU doing this?  Think about it...
> Those without higher education say it isn't needed.  Those without higher certification say it is meaningless.  Of course they do.  Because to admit otherwise makes them take a long hard look in the mirror. 
> Those in charge of the boards and organizations generally don't have formal education.  They dont want it or need it.  They have the good ol boy network.  The same few people keep sitting on the state and national association boards, and the state licensing boards, those of you that have them.  Keep doing the same thing you're doing. You'll keep getting the same results.  
> Vote for all new leadership.  They can't be worse.  Push for licensure for your state, and others..  What Johns' locale did was damn impressive.  Kudos!  Get an education, formal if you can.  Find a Master to learn from.  Get every certification you can.  DO SOMETHING!

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> I honestly don't see that the current syllabus covered by the current ABO exam covers is all that bad.
> 
> It's the syllabus that is incomplete. And there's no practical companion exam with the ABO.
> Barry


Barry:

The current system used to train opticians is failing miserably.  How else can you explain a national pass rate of 52% on the ABO?  My firm administers a practical exam in several states and the pass rate hovers around the same percentage.

On the practical exam candidates have problems performing common tasks such as determining prism thinning, unwanted prism, and add powers.  Most have problems measuring prism reference point height or seg drop/raise.  Approximately 20% cannot identify the seg width for a visible bifocal.

Perhaps there was a time in history that professional knowledge and skills could be passed on through an apprenticeship program, but it is clearly no longer the case.  Opticianry should have moved towards minimum education standards years ago.

Roy

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## Barry Santini

Yes it should have, Roy.  But the facts are that as long as it's only a 2 year degree in selected states, it will always be consdiered a "step-down" from a normal degree (Just like I can't teach w/o a bachelor degree).

I again think we're at the time when its really up to the _individual_ to be in control of their education and what they know.

Degrees-shmgrees.  Too much Politics and lack of consensus on what's necessary to teach.

My opinion at this time.

Barry

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## wmcdonald

> It's never going to happen while the retail sector controls such a large share of the entire optical industry. So many of the retailers prefer inexperienced, uncredentialed workers in order to keep wages down. They've got millions with which to lobby elected officials (coughcoughFairnesstoContactLensConsumersActcoughcough) and defeat any attempts at national licensure, or even bringing the non-licensed states aboard the licensing train.


It won't if we do not make the effort.If you do not try, we will never succeed.

----------


## Wes

> Yes it should have, Roy.  But the facts are that as long as it's only a 2 year degree in selected states, it will always be consdiered a "step-down" from a normal degree (Just like I can't teach w/o a bachelor degree).
> 
> I again think we're at the time when its really up to the _individual_ to be in control of their education and what they know.
> 
> Degrees-shmgrees.  Too much Politics and lack of consensus on what's necessary to teach.
> 
> My opinion at this time.
> 
> Barry


Barry the "individual" optician for the most part is not even aware of what s/he does not know. I've met loads of Licensed Opticians who were extremely ignorant of most information I used to take for granted as common knowledge. Are these the guys who need no formal ed?  Really?  They sure haven't bothered to educate themselves yet now have they.

Sure there are a few genius prodigies that self educated but most of those guys aren't opticians. 

I'm surprised at you!  Your argument holds no water. Its just more status quo. You got yours and that's good enough. Mcticians bring the whole "profession" down a notch. 

As for teaching, if you want to teach formal education, get one. In what professional field do you see people teaching to the degree they hold?  You need a bachelors to teach associates level classes, a masters to teach bachelors level classes, and so on. You're a very smart man and could easily do it.

----------


## Barry Santini

> Barry the "individual" optician for the most part is not even aware of what s/he does not know. I've met loads of Licensed Opticians who were extremely ignorant of most information I used to take for granted as common knowledge. Are these the guys who need no formal ed? Really? They sure haven't bothered to educate themselves yet now have they.
> 
> Sure there are a few genius prodigies that self educated but most of those guys aren't opticians. 
> 
> I'm surprised at you! Your argument holds no water. Its just more status quo. You got yours and that's good enough. Mcticians bring the whole "profession" down a notch. 
> 
> As for teaching, if you want to teach formal education, get one. In what professional field do you see people teaching to the degree they hold? You need a bachelors to teach associates level classes, a masters to teach bachelors level classes, and so on. You're a very smart man and could easily do it.


Sorry I surprised you, Wes.

But "pushing" anyone today to do what they should is not in the cards.

Too much celebration of "individual" choice in this country.

You have to make them "want" it. Crave it. Demand it.

A crisis like the one facing dispensing today is just what the doctor ordered.

Ask Steve Machol how things and consensus gets done in a crisis.

Without a crisis, you get where we are today.

Barry

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## Barry Santini

Further, some of you might like a peak behind the workings of my sick mind:

With all the dissolution of the tradition "partnerships" and accepted arrangements:

1. MDs dispensing
2. Frames and lenses available online, authorized or tacitly approved of
3. Insurance that precludes dispensers from participating (think VSP)
4. Manufacturers (previously wholesalers) now selling direct to John Q.
5. Absolutely no suppliers are to be expected to remain "supportive" of us (read: me)

I've just accepted the fact that it's all up to me - and no one else.

To lead anyone to believe otherwise is completely foolish, IMHO.

In this new world of the 21st century, you've got to make your own way.

No one else can be depended upon to further your destiny.

The one mantra I've adopted is the dispensing with the idea of "sour grapes."

If new dispensers want to make it, they have to do it themselves, with their own skill sets that they develop.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll never shy away from assisting anyone who desires help from me.

This then, I don't see as a selfish position.

It's a tough world out there.  And it just got tougher.

Barry

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## YrahG

> Further, some of you might like a peak behind the workings of my sick mind:
> 
> With all the dissolution of the tradition "partnerships" and accepted arrangements:
> 
> 1. MDs dispensing
> 2. Frames and lenses available online, authorized or tacitly approved of
> 3. Insurance that precludes dispensers from participating (think VSP)
> 4. Manufacturers (previously wholesalers) now selling direct to John Q.
> 5. Absolutely no suppliers are to be expected to remain "supportive" of us (read: me)
> ...


I hate this post, it's selfish and self loathing. From an owner/operator who writes articles for trade publications in this industry and is a designated speaker, boo. You have enjoyed the best this profession has to offer while complaining about a lot in life you are not sitting in.

Your state = Licensed.
Your business = Successful (although with this attitude one would doubt).

This is indicative of a leader who is past their prime, spoiled milk. If you can't be effective, step aside not on peoples spirits.

----------


## kcount

> Further, some of you might like a peak behind the workings of my sick mind:
> 
> With all the dissolution of the tradition "partnerships" and accepted arrangements:
> 
> 1. MDs dispensing
> 2. Frames and lenses available online, authorized or tacitly approved of
> 3. Insurance that precludes dispensers from participating (think VSP)
> 4. Manufacturers (previously wholesalers) now selling direct to John Q.
> 5. Absolutely no suppliers are to be expected to remain "supportive" of us (read: me)
> ...





> I hate this post, it's selfish and self loathing. From an owner/operator who writes articles for trade publications in this industry and is a designated speaker, boo. You have enjoyed the best this profession has to offer while complaining about a lot in life you are not sitting in.
> 
> Your state = Licensed.
> Your business = Successful (although with this attitude one would doubt).
> 
> This is indicative of a leader who is past their prime, spoiled milk. If you can't be effective, step aside not on peoples spirits.


YrahG, I dont agree with you your statement. Barry's statement is neither selfish or self loathing. He states very simply that it is up to each of us to rise to the occasion. To be the best that we can be in our locale, in our industry, in our selves. He even goes on to state that he is willing to help those that ask for it. 

Yes, NY is licensed. Yes, Barry has a successful practice, and is a speaker, teacher, and writer on the subject of opticianry. Where I may not always agree with Barry, I respect his possition. On this point, the point of education, I agree with him.

I cannot force a person to desire an education or to learn a subject any more than I can force the harvest to come in sooner. It is up to the individual to desire it. I have mentored many in my career as I was mentored. Some became good opticians some great, and most simple sales people. The deciding factor was the individuals desire to exceed their expectations. 

If we fail as an industry it will not be the fault of insurance, On-line sales, or major retailors. It will be that we each, in our own offices, failed to meet the expectations of our customers and patients. We succeed alone, we fail alone. No one was here to help me open my store. It was me, alone, every day moving the ball little by little and is still. Opticians that had small moderately successful offices failed in the 80's because they did not adapt. Barry, and those like him, are simply adapting to todays market. Defining themselves not by their association or degree but by their continued focus on their expectations for themselves.

If you desire change in this industry go ahead and make it happen, I dont see Barry or anyone else stopping it.

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## wmcdonald

Mr. Count,
I agree, Barry Santini is a wonderful friend, and honorable man. His intentions are as you describe them. Let me say that I, for one, do not seek to force an education on existing folks. I want to see us improve into the future. We must improve and expand to remain viable in the eye care industry and professions. To remain as we now exist is not feasible.

----------


## YrahG

> I cannot force a person to desire an education 
> 
> Yes you can it's called tuition and entry into a career which is the topic of this thread.
> 
> or to learn a subject any more than I can force the harvest to come in sooner.
> 
> Again Yes you can it's called entry into the profession it's what this thread is titled.
> 
> It is up to the individual to desire it. I have mentored many in my career as I was mentored. 
> ...


What a waste of a good topic. Sorry yall.

----------


## tigerlilly

> That may well have been the case years ago but I think even the big box retailers have now recognized that an adequately trained and credentialed employee is in their best interest. I know of at least 3 large companies that have adopted carreer progression programs and offer excellent educational opportunities for their employees and closely monitor things like CE's and compliance. An educated staff add's more to the bottom line than one which is not.


The two biggest players are Lux and WalMart, and neither of them want credentialed employees. In fact, Lux actively recruits employees with no optical experience, even for store management positions. Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but all I see around me are private disensaries, which often require certification, or places like Eyeglass World and America's Best, which want unqualified people who are willing to work for $8 an hour. The industry is polarized, with little room in the midle ground for both retail and professional concerns. In that climate, there will always be individuals who choose to rise above their circumstances and seek out more knowledge. I don't know that there's any realistic way to force that upon the industry, even though I agree with the idea.

----------


## wmcdonald

The pharmacists did it. Why can't we? If you lay down and do nothing, then that is what you will receive. Get in the game! We can do so much more down the road if we just increase the requirements to enter this profession.

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## kcount

[


> The pharmacists did it. Why can't we? If you lay down and do nothing, then that is what you will receive. Get in the game! We can do so much more down the road if we just increase the requirements to enter this profession.


It seems to me that the organization standing in the way of creating an educational requirement is the very same that has something to lose by creating the requirement. The ABO certifies opticians and seems to be the organization that creates the requirements. I may be wrong in this and would be open to clarification.  If it is the case that the ABO is the organization to work with, how do we all propose to take the message to them that we want to raise the bar.

I am not, as I have painted to be, against an educational requirement. I simply am tired of the constant conversation and would rather an actionable concept for getting the job done.

----------


## rbaker

If it is not already, it should soon be evident why I quit tilting this windmill thirty years ago. Reading these posts is like déjà vu all over again. 

The only change is the steady decline of the craft. I am fearful that it will continue especially considering the new international business models being created by internet marketers and advancing technology.

----------


## wmcdonald

> [
> 
> It seems to me that the organization standing in the way of creating an educational requirement is the very same that has something to lose by creating the requirement. The ABO certifies opticians and seems to be the organization that creates the requirements. I may be wrong in this and would be open to clarification. If it is the case that the ABO is the organization to work with, how do we all propose to take the message to them that we want to raise the bar.
> 
> I am not, as I have painted to be, against an educational requirement. I simply am tired of the constant conversation and would rather an actionable concept for getting the job done.


Mr. Count,
I hope I have not, in any way, painted you with that brush. My last post above was an encouragement (I hope) to Tigerlilly to get engaged, adn was not intended to paint you at all. 

You have hit the nail squarely on the head, and that is what I indicated in the very first post on this thread! The ABO/NCLE makes millions certifying Opticians. Steepening the requirements would possibly minimize that cash cow. The CPAs feel differently. In the first post I presented statement I found on another board regarding the CPAs fudiciary duty to the public that demanded a knowledgeable, competent practitioner. They require a great deal of work and study prior to sitting for the boards to become a Certified Public Accountant. This is not a license, mind you, but a certification. I still do not like that term, but it could work for us. There are others who are accountants, but they must meet a much more rigorous standard to call themselves a CPA, and most feel more comfortable with a CPA who has clearly established they have mastered a base of knowledge. If non-CPAs use that title, all hell will break loose. In a paper presented by several folks to the OAA Leadership several years ago, we described a similar step Opticians could take. We called it the Registered Optician concept, and this would allow folks from any jurisdiction to call themselves a Registered Optician (as comparable to a RN, or a CPA) and it could be self-policed by the profession and an elected board. The committee charged with this concept developed standards by which a person could attain Registered Optician status in the US, but alas, the leadership of OAA was not interested. Any Optician would have to go through the steps outlined, and could then market themselves as a Registered Optician. This could be a national thing, and licensure would be seperate. It will be difficult to license a new state (although not impossible), so this idea sprang up as an way to allow folks to establish a national branding opportunity across all jurisdictions. This was debated here, and is still viable. We can domore, and education was a part of this concept.

I do not start many threads, because we seem to always go off track. I read the CPA thing, and thought it would be a good discussion, but unfortunately it has turned into a debate about the value of education. This ridiculous debate is only found in Opticianry, and if you look, many of the leaders have none, and therefore do not want those who come behind them to appear superior. If Henry Ford felt that way about cars we would still be driving buggys. I only seek to improve Opticianry as a profession. I see and hear the desire for many to do more, and the despair of others regarding the future of the profession. I know we can improve it if we just will. Many of you  here are the cream of the cop, and others just came into the field for a job. Some really struggled with the ABO, and while such a basic exam should not have caused such concern, it is not your fault, but the system. We must improve, it and I am bound and determined to do all in my power to get folks to look towards the future and see what we could become. End of rant, sorry.

----------


## MarySue

> [
> 
> It seems to me that the organization standing in the way of creating an educational requirement is the very same that has something to lose by creating the requirement. The ABO certifies opticians and seems to be the organization that creates the requirements. I may be wrong in this and would be open to clarification. If it is the case that the ABO is the organization to work with, how do we all propose to take the message to them that we want to raise the bar.


The certification by the ABO is very lightweight.  I don't believe it's recognised as anything much but the paper it's on, outside of the USA.  Now, add a Master in front, and an NCLE at back, and that's a bit more uniform to the rest of the world.

I still think Virginia has it right - Ontario has it right, the UK is now providing a BSc in Optical Sciences for dispensing opticians, we'll get there - just slowly, as all those ABO certified members think because they are certified, they understand dispensing optics.

:)

Please don't be offended if you are an ABO certified optician - I was, but then went to J Sargeant Reynolds to get a license in VA. In 1984 I had license in hand realising how little the ABO cert taught me, and now 26 years on, I'm amazed I was able to dispense at all, even after graduation --- a good dispensing optician continues learning, regardless of need or requirement for license/registration, etc.

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## libellule

Boy...this is such a contentious subject. But why?

If we want more respect we have to earn it. If we want more recognition we have to deserve it.

I am in a license state (and by that I do not mean I have ABO certification and I have a license). I have an AAS in Opticianry. I am an active member in my state association and sit on the board. And I am in FULL FAVOR of strict requirements to enter....in fact, I support more education than *I* have as a requirement. I have always thought that formal, classroom education should be paired with hands-on, apprentice-style learning...and that everyone who dispenses should have some lab training. 

I also am a proponnent of overhauling the CE requirements. It is absolutely absurd that an optician who has been in the field for 5 years can take basics classes (like basic adjusting techniques) and get credit for what they should already know! I believe there should be a tiered system such as a 100 level, 101 level etc.

The ODs have opposed our desire to fit contacts and refract because they argue that we are not properly educated to do so. So, why not get educated and then lobby for those things that we see ourselves doing. The education must come first. I myself would love the chance to furthur my education....bring it on!

And for those who think that we have no control over the licensing boards....um, how do you think we got the license in the first place? We lobbied for it! And those of us here in WA just lobbied to modify our law. And it was signed by the Governor 2 days ago. 

I know that many of you have been around for awhile and have heard this over and over but its new for me and where others have failed perhaps some will succeed.

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## tigerlilly

> My last post above was an encouragement (I hope) to Tigerlilly to get engaged, adn was not intended to paint you at all.


I do support licensure, and minimum uniform standards. Coming from the retail sector, I have no hope of seeing that happen. Big bidness, as the dearly departed Molly Ivins used to call it, has such a stranglehold on our state and national legislators, and it goes against their interests to introduce such requirements.

I'm conflicted about entrance requirements. On one hand, I agree that patients would receive a higher standard of care. I cringe at some of the mistakes and bloopers I made in the beginning out of ignorance. On the other hand, I never would have been able to get my foot in the door if the profession weren't open to newcomers. I took it upon myself to learn and grow in order to give the best care I could, and I can see it's a career-long process. I've earned my right to be here, and I know that others have done the same. Closing that door to people like us gets rid of the Mcticians, but it also gets rid of some good folks, too. Taking courses and getting an associate's as a prerequisite isn't possible for everyone, and a truly motivated person with great training and mentorship will be able to learn as they go.

An apprenticeship would be a good compromise. No stringent entrance requirements, but controls on what one is allowed to do, formal education guidlines and benchmark assessments along the way would protect patients and ensure that opticians are truly competent.

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## BMH

[QUOTE=kcount;336292]
I'll end on the same note I ended it with the ABO. The ABO simply no longer defines what I do as an optician. The courses offered have little to do with my practice and are rudimentary at best. The ABO no-longer defines what an optician is. To change its focus will take a leader with the capacity to see beyond what it is today.[QUOTE]

Sounds like a call for action.

If only there were some orginization that was certifing ophthalmic professionals other than ABO/NCLE.


:bbg:

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## wmcdonald

> I do support licensure, and minimum uniform standards. Coming from the retail sector, I have no hope of seeing that happen. Big bidness, as the dearly departed Molly Ivins used to call it, has such a stranglehold on our state and national legislators, and it goes against their interests to introduce such requirements.
> 
> I'm conflicted about entrance requirements. On one hand, I agree that patients would receive a higher standard of care. I cringe at some of the mistakes and bloopers I made in the beginning out of ignorance. On the other hand, I never would have been able to get my foot in the door if the profession weren't open to newcomers. I took it upon myself to learn and grow in order to give the best care I could, and I can see it's a career-long process. I've earned my right to be here, and I know that others have done the same. Closing that door to people like us gets rid of the Mcticians, but it also gets rid of some good folks, too. Taking courses and getting an associate's as a prerequisite isn't possible for everyone, and a truly motivated person with great training and mentorship will be able to learn as they go.
> 
> An apprenticeship would be a good compromise. No stringent entrance requirements, but controls on what one is allowed to do, formal education guidlines and benchmark assessments along the way would protect patients and ensure that opticians are truly competent.


If we seek to be recognized as a legitimate profession, easy entry is not the way. An associate degree is a minimal requirement, and should not be too difficult for anyone to achieve, especially with online programs now available. I do not mean this personally, but you cannot distinguish those you refer to as "McTishians" from you, can you? What sets you apart. Most folks who go through "apprenticeship" training today, get little to no real training of any sort, and that is why we are in the shape we are in. Most trained in this fashion have no idea what they do not know. I helped to develop an online initiative here in the US with NAIT, and the leaders in Texas (ROATx) all took the program, to show others in their state the importance. They walked the walk, as well as talked the talk. Passing the program was not as easy as they thought, and all indicated they learned so much more than they knew before, and that it was a truly valuable experience. Many here tout "I have 25 years experiences, and I ain't got no danged degree"!. Well, to that I say 25 years of doing something incorrectly does not make it correcct. We can do better, and must if we are to move forward. We only hurt the profession overall by allowing this kind of malarky to continue. you cannot become a Nurse, an OD, a CPA, a Dental Hygeniest, a Radiolgy Tech, a Respitory Tech, or any other health-related profession without some level of education, and they do not really care if you could not enter any other way. We should not either, and must increase our standards if we are to again move forward. We can do better!

Lastly, no one is asking you to go back to school. You have earned your right, if there is a right to provide health care services to the public with no real education or training, but we are looking to the future. Think beyond your own nose for a minute, folks, and if you are objective, you will realize that education is not our enemy, but can take us to places we never thought possible. We can do better!

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## MarySue

> I am saying Opticians need more education and training, and to expand beyond the traditional scope. 
> 
> I am also not suggesting anyone who touches a pair of spectacles be "certified". 
> 
> Like most things here, the thread has gone off in a different direction. 
> 
> My question to the board......is that good, or should we improve the standards?


I think we need to have a consensus -The IOA - International Opticians Association meets every year ---- LET'S ALL ATTEND THE NEXT MEETING, and nut it out for real!

*October 1 - 3, 2010* - International Optician Association Conference, Ottawa ,Canada   

Being in Canada means you Yanks can all simply hop over the border.  It will be a slightly longer trip for me, but if possible - I'm going!  

We could set an internationally recognised standard - and all organisations could aspire to meet or go beyond that standard of education.

Come on people - let's put action to the pavement.  
Here's more info: http://opticians.ca/CONVENTIONS/index.asp?id=78

See you there - PLEASE NO SNOW for this south pacific replant.

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## tigerlilly

> If we seek to be recognized as a legitimate profession, easy entry is not the way. An associate degree is a minimal requirement, and should not be too difficult for anyone to achieve, especially with online programs now available.


I disagree. You're saying that people like me who come into the profession with no  education are not worthy of being here, and that's neither accurate nor  fair. The plethora of online "universities" makes it incredibly difficult to determine which institutions are legit and which are fly-by-night. It's irrelevant anyway, as one cannot learn to be an optician from an online class. There's too much practical, hands-on knowledge needed. It's also incorrect that anyone can attend college. My family situation is such that I cannot attend a real school, and I know I'm not the only one with constraints. 




> I do not mean this personally, but you cannot distinguish those you refer to as "McTishians" from you, can you? What sets you apart.


Personally or not, that was an incredibly insulting thing to say, as you well know. I can easily distinguish myself from a Mctician, since I'm not a merely frame stylist or a salesperson. I've worked hard ever since my first day to learn and grow professionally in order to best serve the patients. Do you think my employer suggested I hit up Optiboard to better myself? I took the initiative to seek out this (informal) professional organization so I could learn from others and get advice on educating myself beyond what I could learn from my employer or by experience. If formal education were an option for me I would be happy to do it, but I've had to make do with other ways of learning. Improving one's skills and expanding the base of knowledge is a never ending process, but I'm proud of the kind of service and professionalism I am able to give. I have no doubts that what I do is in a totally different category than the kid who was working at the mall last week and is now selling glasses at a "Two pairs of glasses and a free exam for $79!" retailer.




> Most folks who go through "apprenticeship" training today, get little to no real training of any sort, and that is why we are in the shape we are in. Most trained in this fashion have no idea what they do not know.


Again, I disagree. I see opticianry as a skilled trade, and trade apprenticeships are thriving. Electricians, plumbers, pipefitters, welders and many other tradesmen have great programs that turn out competent, well-trained professionals, and there's no reason we couldn't have a successful program, too. "Not knowing what you don't know" is addressed with appropriate evaluation and uniform standards for proceeding to the next level.




> you cannot become a Nurse, an OD, a CPA, a Dental Hygeniest, a Radiolgy Tech, a Respitory Tech, or any other health-related profession without some level of education, and they do not really care if you could not enter any other way. We should not either, and must increase our standards if we are to again move forward. We can do better!


We are not truly healthcare providers. We're in a strange middle ground, and we're not even close to being on a level with nurses or doctors. When the medical assistant responsible for more than half of the medical care you receive at your MD's office or hospital isn't subject to national licensing or certification, it's difficult to sell the idea that opticians need to have formal education and certification/licensing requirements in order to dispense glasses.




> Lastly, no one is asking you to go back to school. You have earned your right, if there is a right to provide health care services to the public with no real education or training, but we are looking to the future.


Condescend much? Hope you don't get a nosebleed or anything from the altitude up there on your high horse.

Look, this is not the hill I choose to die on. We can't even get all states to enforce standards using the certification system we already have, and there's zero chance they'll sign on for a legal mandate that requires formal education. I think it's more productive to differentiate between professional opticians and frame stylists by powering a grassroots campaign to get dispensaries to voluntarily commit to using opticians who have met uniform minimum standards via certification. Once that's taken hold and we're touting the differences in the level of care given, we can expand the focus to improve education and add other options for proving competency.

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## hcjilson

> I can easily distinguish myself from a Mctician, since I'm not a merely  frame stylist or a salesperson. I've worked hard ever since my first  day to learn and grow professionally in order to best serve the  patients.


Show me the credentials to prove it!

I happen to be a member of a state licensing board. I ask that question not out of disrespect, but out of curiosity, and to illustrate the point being made by messer's Mcdonald and Ferguson What credentials do you have that would convince me that you are a qualified optician? If you lack an associates degree, you can prove nothing other than you have passed exams certifying that you have the *MINIMUM ENTRY LEVEL SKILLS TO PRACTICE OPTICIANRY WITHOUT SUPERVISION.*  I am talking proof here, not your word that you are excellently qualified.  If you ever decide to practice in another jurisdiction, the authority will be looking for the same thing. ( Please note I am not saying that YOU are not qualified, I AM saying you can't prove it)

When wmcdonald tells you not to take something personally, you can take that to the bank. Don't take what he said personally,it wasn't meant personally,  you just played into his hand without realizing you had done so. He would never take advantage of that.

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## braheem24

> An associate degree is a minimal requirement, and should not be too difficult for anyone to achieve, especially with online programs now available.


 
Anyone have any experience/recommendations with any?

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## Roy R. Ferguson

> Anyone have any experience/recommendations with any?


Several years ago I presented a degree completion program to the Tennessee Dispensing Opticians Association approved through an accredited state college.  Of the 60 credits required for the AAS, 21 were granted for completing the ABO/NCLE.  This recognized the knowledge gained in those certifications and the effort involved in an apprenticeship program.  The college also accepted all college credit from accredited institutions regardless of age.

To make this program as user friendly as possible, I created programs that provided both college credit and ABO/NCLE approved hours.  Each class could have been completed by attending one weekend program.  In addition to these, the optician would have been required to complete two English courses and one Math course that could have been taken on-line.  The overall cost was minimal and accessible.  The state society overwhelmingly rejected this path to a college degree.  

A college degree (especially an AAS) is not unattainable for opticians, not too difficult, and not too expensive.  I suggest opticians are simply too lazy to embrace the idea.  

Roy

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## braheem24

Sounds like a wonderful idea, Does the program still exist at the college itself?

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## Wes

Well gee, Roy! Can't have the new optishuns* getting more edumacation than the guys running the show. They might get uppity and decide they want some say in what goes on. The good ol boy network might be challenged. Nope, can't have that. Let's just keep em down and dumb...
And what's with the math and english classes?  Our optishuns* don't need no math class, and really, why bother with communication skills? Can't you tell from reading these boards that our english is tip-top?  Hmmm. Healthcare profession indeed. 

Seriously though, I support what you and Warren are trying to do. Just illustrating absurdity by being absurd. It just seems to me that those with the power to make these things happen have fiduciary and other interests in making sure it doesn't.  

*optishun: uneducated optician. See also; mctician,aka;mctishun

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## kcount

> Several years ago I presented a degree completion program to the Tennessee Dispensing Opticians Association approved through an accredited state college. Of the 60 credits required for the AAS, 21 were granted for completing the ABO/NCLE. This recognized the knowledge gained in those certifications and the effort involved in an apprenticeship program. The college also accepted all college credit from accredited institutions regardless of age.
> 
> To make this program as user friendly as possible, I created programs that provided both college credit and ABO/NCLE approved hours. Each class could have been completed by attending one weekend program. In addition to these, the optician would have been required to complete two English courses and one Math course that could have been taken on-line. The overall cost was minimal and accessible. The state society overwhelmingly rejected this path to a college degree. 
> 
> A college degree (especially an AAS) is not unattainable for opticians, not too difficult, and not too expensive. I suggest opticians are simply too lazy to embrace the idea. 
> 
> Roy


This concept would actually get support in IL. The biggest hurdle has been OD's wanting an education component. May I ask if you still have the program outlines?

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## wmcdonald

Tigerlily has made a significant point. She has taken my comments personally, and that is not what was intended, but she is correct, I feel there is no room in the future for folks like her if we are move forward in any way. She does not believe we are a profession, but a trade, as she stated, and there is where we will agree to disagree. As I mentioned, I look to the future and what we may become. 

As to schools: there are many online institutions available. I represent a fine Canadian institution, The Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, that is online and utilizes proctors in the local arrea to handle the hands-on clinical component in a very well designed system, as was mentioned above. If you cannot tell if an institution is legitimate or not, ask. There are many experts to assist you. The National Federation of Opticianry Schools has several very good institutions that have online programs. J. Sargent Reynolds offers an outstanding program online. Hillsborough Community College. Durhm Technical Community College, and probably a few others, but you have to seek it out. It will not come to you.

Lastly, I (again) do not suggest that anyone have to go back to school to learn anything. Heaven forbid! What I want to see is that the requirements increase in the future. That is all I am saying, and we can do better.......if we choose!

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## Mr. Finney

> An associate degree is a minimal requirement, and should not be too difficult for anyone to achieve, especially with online programs now available.


FYI and FWIW, it took me 21 years to get my Associates degree, not in Opticianry, but in Liberal Arts.  I completed my freshman year while I was still young and single, and lacked discipline and ambition.  I finally decided to get that piece of paper after I was married with children.  I couldn't afford to go back to school full-time, nor did I feel it fair to shirk all of my parental responsibilities, so I took one or two classes each semester, either in-class or online.  Had I been driven to do so right out of high school, still living with mom and dad, no bills or cares, sure, an associates degree wouldn't have been too difficult.  But for you to say it shouldn't be too difficult for _anyone_ is a little short-sighted. 





> I say 25 years of doing something incorrectly does not make it correcct.





> Lastly, no one is asking you to go back to school. You have earned your right, if there is a right to provide health care services to the public with no real education or training


You may not be asking anyone to go back to school, but you sure do make it clear what you will continue to think of those who haven't completed your idea of a proper education.  Are you saying that someone with 25 years of hands-on experience in Opticianry is not as qualified as a fresh graduate from a 2-yr Opticianry program?  That a 25-yr veteran of this profession is not worthy of your respect, simply because they didn't start out by getting a degree?





> Show me the credentials to prove it!  I happen to be a member of a state licensing board. I ask that question not out of disrespect, but out of curiosity, and to illustrate the point being made by messer's Mcdonald and Ferguson.  What credentials do you have that would convince me that you are a qualified optician? If you lack an associates degree, you can prove nothing other than you have passed exams certifying that you have the *MINIMUM ENTRY LEVEL SKILLS TO PRACTICE OPTICIANRY WITHOUT SUPERVISION.*  I am talking proof here, not your word that you are excellently qualified.  If you ever decide to practice in another jurisdiction, the authority will be looking for the same thing. (Please note I am not saying that YOU are not qualified, I AM saying you can't prove it).


And if I lack an associates degree, and come from a state that does not require licensure, but have passed exams certifying that I have the *MINIMUM ENTRY LEVEL SKILLS TO PRACTICE OPTICINARY WITHOUT SUPERVISION,* and then I pass your state's practical exam and am granted licensure, would I then be considered qualified?  Even if I had no degree?  Or had never completed an apprenticeship?





> When wmcdonald tells you not to take something personally, you can take that to the bank. Don't take what he said personally,it wasn't meant personally,  you just played into his hand without realizing you had done so. He would never take advantage of that.


Like tigerlilly, I have been insulted by wmcdonald before also.  Maybe it was unintentional.  I'm starting to see a trend though.  I understand that he is passionate about this subject, but to degrade the position and success of someone who strives to do their best, who tries to set themself apart from others by seeking knowledge and by being professional in action, I think wmcdonald, whether he realizes it or not, is coming across as extremely arrogant, disrespectful and hurtful.

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## braheem24

> Like tigerlilly, I have been insulted by wmcdonald before also. Maybe it was unintentional. I'm starting to see a trend though. I understand that he is passionate about this subject, but to degrade the position and success of someone who strives to do their best, who tries to set themself apart from others by seeking knowledge and by being professional in action, I think wmcdonald, whether he realizes it or not, is coming across as extremely arrogant, disrespectful and hurtful.


Anyone who has met Dr. McDonald would not believe such a thing.

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## wmcdonald

If you do not see the value of an education requirement for the future of this profession, I cannot help you. I am not talking about you personally, but if you are insulted by my posts then so be it. Try to do ANYTHING else in health care without a degree of some sort, and you will see it is impossible. If a two-year degree is excessive, we are clearly doomed to continue this downward spiral until we are completely absorbed into Optometry completely. We can do better, but we have to have people that realize education is our key to the future. You see, it is not all about either of us, but what is best for future Opticians. 

And by the way, you would not be allowed to sit for NC boards without evidence a degree in Opticianry, or a lengthy (3.5 year apprenticeship) and a 6 months dispensing internship that is equivalent to ours. It covers the full spectrum of Opticianry, to include contact lenses. 

I wish you well in your future, but for the profession, folks like you are not what is needed.

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## Darryl Meister

Will we see a universal requirement for opticianry education anytime soon? Of course not. Less than half of the states are licensed at this point, and even fewer have specific educational requirements. Without licensure, only the market can compel opticians to seek education, and the market has never headed in that direction.

But I don't think that "raising the bar" for opticianry education standards is really that difficult at all. After all, the very organization that sets the standards for minimum competency, the American Board of Opticianry, is managed primarily by opticians. The board of directors comprises representatives from the Opticians Association of America, National Academy of Opticianry, National Federation of Opticianry Schools, and so on.

Since the ABO's National Opticianry Competency Examination is the de facto standard of minimum competency in most states and even the de jure standard mandated by law in many licensed states, effecting a change at the ABO by increasing the level of difficulty of the exam will drive the minimum education requirements needed to pass the test. If the exam becomes sufficiently challenging, it will compel opticians to attain more formal education by necessity.

Of course, since opticianry representatives with the ABO have already created a test with a level of difficulty meant to demonstrate "minimum competence," which most individuals pass without formal opticianry education, the various opticianry organizations that guide the ABO may need to redefine these minimum standards and core competencies. Is the current test really written to ensure minimum competence or only to ensure a certain pass/fail rate?

While opticianry education threads like this continue to spark interesting debate and discussion, we will never see any real progress until the merits of higher education requirements are successfully argued to our national organizations. Opticians have always been, and will continue to be, responsible for our own destiny, in my opinion.

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## wmcdonald

Thanks Darryl, and that was the focus of the entire thread, if you read the very first post. Our destiny is in our hands. We probably will not see an education requirement in the short term, but I continue to hope that one day, it can be possible. Our future depends on it.

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## Mr. Finney

> If you do not see the value of an education requirement for the future of this profession, I cannot help you.


It isn't that I don't see the value of an education requirement.  Believe me, practicing in Oklahoma, I see the need every day!  What I was trying to point out is that your assertion that an associates degrees is easily obtained is not correct; I have recent experience in that endeavor and can tell you, it's not that easy.




> If a two-year degree is excessive, we are clearly doomed to continue this downward spiral until we are completely absorbed into Optometry completely.


I do not think it is excessive, however, and I realize this isn't part of the original discussion, there would need to be some type of grandfather clause to allow those without the new requirement to continue working in their chosen profession.  Maybe the ability to "test out" of the new "requirements", if they've learned the equivalent through experience.




> And by the way, you would not be allowed to sit for NC boards without evidence a degree in Opticianry, or a lengthy (3.5 year apprenticeship) and a 6 months dispensing internship that is equivalent to ours. It covers the full spectrum of Opticianry, to include contact lenses.


I guess NC is ahead of the curve with regards to your proposal.  Good thing I'm not planning a move to NC.  I'm curious though, how long has NC had the current requirements?  What were the requirements previously?  What happened when the requirements changed?  Was there a sudden shortage of "qualified" opticians?




> I wish you well in your future, but for the profession, folks like you are not what is needed.


Once again, you have hurled a tremendous insult!  How can you pretend to know me?  Or have a clue as to what I may or may not know?  Or what I may be capable of?  Or whether or not I am good for the profession?  That is unbelievably elitist of you!  I've worked my butt off to learn everything I can, to be the best that I can be, in a profession in a state where neither the state nor the employers reward me for my efforts.  For you to say "I wish you well in your future, but for the profession, folks like you are not what is needed" is a slap in the face of every person who hasn't taken your "appropriate" path to "qualification".

I would like to apologize to everyone if I have steered this thread off topic; that was not my intention.  However, I will not sit back and be belittled.  I do not claim to be a great optician.  If I did, I wouldn't be here trying to learn all that I can.  But I do feel that I am, as all of us are, entitled to a certain amount of respect, regardless of our level of knowledge, training, or competence.

Bryan

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## Roy R. Ferguson

In 1992 I had the honor to be associated with an effort to adopt minimum education standards for opticians. The following resolution can be found at OAA.org.

*Current Resolutions of Opticians of America*

*3-12 Formal Education for Opticians*

Whereas, the education of opticians is of primary importance to the opticians Association of America, and
Whereas, the practice of opticianry does not currently require a formal education, and
Whereas, the future of opticianry lies in the legitimizing of our profession as an integral part of the eyecare delivery system, and 
Whereas, this legitimacy can only be expected if we regulate and standardize our industry, and
Whereas, the creation of a national standardized formal educational program would be a benefit in creating this legitimacy, therefore be it
*RESOLVED* that OAA establish a committee to develop a plan to implement a formal education standard, to be promoted at the national level as the minimum standard by which an individual may be deemed an “Optician,” and to report their recommendations at the 1993 OAA Annual Meeting, and it be further
*RESOLVED* that the committee composition be equal number of representatives from the Opticians Association of America, National Academy of Opticianry, and National Federation of Opticianry Schools, and be it further
*RESOLVED* that this plan should incorporate a series of general education and optically related subjects, which classes may also transfer to an Associate in Applied Sciences program, and be it further
*RESOLVED* that there be an experiential credit considered for dispensers currently employed in the optical field, such credit to be granted on a minimum length of internship, successful completion of the American Board of Opticianry examination and successful completion of the National Contact Lens Examiners examination.

*Adopted June 1992*

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## hcjilson

Dear Roy,

That was in 1992......what has happened to that resolution? I know the answer may get into the past history of OAA and I don't wan't to paint it [OAA] in bad light but I think the question begs an answer.

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## Wes

A little perspective here guys. The minimal studying necessary to pass the NOCE and CLRE are not comparable to the difficulty of taking college courses. It is much more difficult to get an associates degree than it is to enter opticianry through more traditional means. With that said, an associates degree IS relatively easy to attain in comparison to the entry requirements of other healthcare professions. MD, OD, BSN, etc... Think about it. You are being addressed by PhD's who know the difference. 
The average optician is compensated well for what they have, which on average is this:
A high school diploma
A couple of very easy to pass certifications
A few years of on the job training
High school is a joke. The basic certifications are just that: BASIC. You shouldn't even begin to sell or fit glasses until you pass the NOCE. You shouldn't begin fitting contacts to human eyes until you pass the CLRE, and then only under supervision until competent. Passing these exams should be entry level into the field, not the final goal as seems to be. Keep in mind we're talking minimal competence here. On the job training is great, but you're only going to learn what those above you can teach you. The rest you figure out for yourself. Is this how you think healthcare professionals SHOULD BE TRAINED IN THE FUTURE? 
A hs education was all my dad had. He wanted more for me. I don't look down my nose at him for not being degreed. He did what he could. What these guys are saying is that we should hope for more from those who follow us. For their sake and the sake of the profession. 
it seems to me that too many are taking personal offense to the suggestion that we can be more. If you want more than you had for your kids, then perhaps you can understand the good DRs' perspective.

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## Fezz

> Dear Roy,
> 
> That was in 1992......what has happened to that resolution? I know the answer may get into the past history of OAA and I don't wan't to paint it [OAA] in bad light but I think the question begs an answer.


 
OH BOY!!!

This is going to be good!

Where is that popcorn eating emiticon thingy???

:cheers: :Nerd:  :Nerd:  :Nerd: :cheers:

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## wmcdonald

Again, you are insulted. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but let me say again......believe it or not......this has nothing to do with you. Folks like you are here, and make up the majority, but that must change for Opticianry to reach any positive change. What we need is to stiffen requirements. That would not eliminate you, and you obviously feel threatened by the discussion, but as stated clearly, it is about the future Optician. We cannot afford to have poorly (or those with no training at all) calling themselves Opticians in the future. If we do not improve, we wil never reach our potential. I am done with this insane debate about the value of education.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

*3-13  Education Standard Adoption*

            Whereas, the members of the Opticians Association of America (OAA) resolved to create a committee to investigate a formal education standard and report its recommendation at the 1993 annual meeting, and
            Whereas, the committee has presented such recommendations and curriculum and determined them to be in the best interests of Opticianry as a whole, now therefore be it
 *RESOLVED* that OAA adopt the recommendations of the appointed formal education committee with the final outcome being the present minimum standard bt which an individual may be deemed an Optician or use the term optician in the job title or description, and be it further
 *RESOLVED* that OAA encourage and support the adoption of these standards by each state in a timely fashion.

Adopted:          June 1993

The minimum education standard was adopted in 1993.  As far as I know the Tennessee Dispensing Opticians Association was the only group to oppose the resolution.  

As you can see by the wording, the implementation was left to the states.  That is where the disconnect occurred.  To date, no state has used this national resolution as support for adopting the standard.  

Warren continues to make a point that seems to be ignored.  If the scope of practice for opticianry is to ever expand past PD’s and seg height, it must be through education.  He is discussing the field of opticianry.  The objections I have read thus far involve the personal fears of opticians regarding their individual status.  Warren is suggesting that opticianry build a boat to lift all while a few folks cling like heck to the anchor for fear they might float up with everyone else.

Finally, for those who think that Warren and I lived with our parents while earning our PhD’s, let me assure you that was not the case.  I taught full time in a college opticianry program and managed my retail optical dispensary while working on a MA and PHD.  Education is available if one is willing to pursue it. 

Roy

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## hcjilson

While, with each passing year, my memory seems to be getting worse, I cannot recall OAA ever contacting the MA board to promulgate the passage of a regulation establishing formal education as an entry level requirement for licensure. Admittedly my term was interrupted in the early 90's, but I am positive I would have known about this effort had it existed. In fact, it was no secret we were revising our rules and regulations some 6 years back and there certainly was no contact then.At one point I suggested instituting such an educational requirement but was hooted down in view of the situation in Rhode Island who suddenly had a loss of  candidates for licensure, and a representative of the Division of Labor and Industries who oversee apprentices in the Commonwealth.

What is past is past, the question becomes one of what do we do today? Is OAA prepared to follow through with this resolution today, is another question that begs an answer. If states are to adopt this requirement, there must be adequate facilities to offer these programs. It is my understanding that the one institution in MA offering an AS degree will only have 11 candidates this year. If this idea is to succeed it will require a multi-pronged effort to make the grade. Support from the national organization, support from the profession, and support from the potential candidates.
How many opticians take the time to participate in Career days at local high schools. How many are out actively recruiting from the crop of today's unemployed workers? My guess would be not too many! The snake in the grass is called apathy and it has come back to bite us. We can change it

Note to Fezz- Roy and I are friends-Time to put away the popcorn and roll up the sleeves. I ask the questions above as food for thought, not because I need the answers.

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## kcount

Recently I have been sitting on the sidelines of this discussion and have truely enjoyed the comments. Points have been made by all and the debate has been lively, but I would like to refocus on the question at hand.

If it were the case that a motion came forward to increase the level of education needed for new opticians would you be against it? Bear in mind that all currently certified Opticians would be grandfathered in so long as you did not let your certificacion laps. The education requirement would be an Associates Degree from an accredited college in liberal arts. I know this will ruffle some peoples feathers for they want the AA to come from a technical college in Opticianry, but the truth is there are very few of these schools. I'm sorry online doesn't cut it. We're talking hands on face to face classroom time. 

So, its an AA from an accredited college, then sit for the ABO/NCLE I say ABO/NCLE because in this new order the tests will be combined in to one testing session (still two tests but we take them all over one day or one weekend). All those with current, up to date ABO's will be grandfathered in with no further requirement other than continued CE's.

If we can agree to this, we can start on the road to a fundementaly sound profession with longevity.

For a historical perspective, Optometry started this same way. At every advancement of educational requirement they would grandfather all existing OD's. The path to licensure is here, and is viable. Opticians before us have marked the way they justy happened to be called prescribing opticians, in the 1800's.


How does that sound? Is that something that we can agree on?

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## Darryl Meister

I may have missed something, but haven't formal national education standards already been developed by the National Federation of Opticianry Schools with the Commission on Opticianry Accreditation? And does any of that really matter without a license? As the OAA acknowledged in their resolution:

_Whereas, this legitimacy can only be expected if we regulate and standardize our industry_

Since national licensure is unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever, this becomes a moot point. The ABO's NOCE exam, on the other hand, represents a national education standard that _can_ be enhanced, without extensive legislation.

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## Wes

Can we assume you mean an opticianry associates, or just a liberal arts associates?  I really don't see how an unrelated degree benefits the profession.  A BS in business admin doesn't qualify me to become an RN.   
Also, somewhere down the line, I would like to see the basic noce/clre (to be renamed apprenticing exams) become the basis for entry as a supervised apprentice and full optician status granted after passing the advanced noce/clre (to be renamed standard exams).  Now THAT would give us well qualified future opticians. It also would gain little support as evidenced by the many complaints in this thread.
I think you may be on to something.

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## kcount

> Can we assume you mean an opticianry associates, or just a liberal arts associates? I really don't see how an unrelated degree benefits the profession.


Thank you Wss for asking the question. No a Liberal arts degree. This is where I'm coming from in this.

1. A college degree teaches a person to do two things; meet deadlines and think. Thats it, nothing more. college in all its glory is designed to make young adults members of an adult society of thinkers and deadline meeters. Now, secondary education be it law school, medical school, what have you teaches you to do 'something'. Think I'm wrong? Ask your financial advisor what their degree is in. I've seen, theater, marketing, business, biology, and a host of others on the resume's my wife sifts through (she's an retained executive recruiter). The degree is there to show that you have a basic level of education greater than the HS diploma that was required of all of the rest of us. 

2. The further West you go the fewer Opticianry programs you find. In Illinois I defy you to find one. Indiana has a program though. 

Darrly, you are correct all the educational requirements are moot with out licensure, but *there will be NO LICENSURE with out an educational requirement*. I agree that the leveling bar needs to be placed not at the licensure but at the certification board. ie see CPA's sited by Dr. McDonald. The requirement there is a Bachelors degree just to think of sitting for the test. Wss before you say it, yes they also require a certain amount of accounting classes. So lets say its gonna have to be an AS in biology or some similarly related science.

I'm just looking for consensus on a level of education we can all agree on. We can talk about what you should get a degree in later.

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## Darryl Meister

> *there will be NO LICENSURE with out an educational requirement*.


Your point is not entirely clear here; can you elaborate?

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## Jacqui

I still like my idea better, education+apprenticeship+testing.

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## kcount

> Your point is not entirely clear here; can you elaborate?


In order to move the licensure ball forward from the scattering of states there are now to more of a majority. We need to place an educational requirement on the ABO. Saddly this is the one point that we cant get behind.  I can truely see why people get frustrated and walk away from the conversation.

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## kcount

> I still like my idea better, education+apprenticeship+testing.


Great, but its failed. We have tried for the last 20+ years and lost ground again and again. You have a new plan?

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## Wes

> I still like my idea better, education+apprenticeship+testing.


I've read your posts for a while about your high school kid; now there's an apprenticeship. You are the exception, not the rule. 
Education?  What education?  We can't agree on that at all.
Testing?  Most opticians think the basic, entry level certification is the be-all, end-all of opticianry. Many are unaware of anything higher. A few have heard there might be something called a master certification. Almost none have heard of the advanced certification.  
I like your idea in theory. It has proven woefully inadequate in practice. 

As far as kcounts suggestions, maybe if the degree focused on sciences, accounting, economics, and communication skills...
My two cents

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## wmcdonald

> In order to move the licensure ball forward from the scattering of states there are now to more of a majority. We need to place an educational requirement on the ABO. Saddly this is the one point that we cant get behind. I can truely see why people get frustrated and walk away from the conversation.


We must stiffen the entry requirements first, and then we will be able to expand a bit. As I have stated many times, the reason we have such diverse views is because Opticians in different states and across different regions are different. We must have a similar entry requirement in all states, whether licensed or not, to become an Optician. That requirement must mandate people to do SOMETHING educationally, and once we have a similar frame of reference we will come together to a larger degree, and move forward. Then licensure may be a possibility. That is why, when I saw the CPA's take on entry into the profession, I thought it would be an appropriate discussion. As usual, when people with such different backgrounds attempt to discuss something this sensitive, it often gets a bit testy, but the discussion must take place. I have sung this song, along with Dr. Ferguson and others for nearly 30 years. We have not given up, at least completely, because we want to make the field better than when we entered. Do we tire.....of course. We always get these folks who take the issue personally, and it is not their fault. It is the system we have allowed to shape us. The field has actually declined because we had lax requiremnts, and if we are to end that and build back to solid ground, we must demand higher standards. Do not give up, but listen with on objective ear. We can make it better, and must keep on trying to help these folks, despite their often not realizing we are trying to do so. Hang in there with us. We need good folks!

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## Jana Lewis

Just curious how someone like me: BA in English, NCLE, ABO 20+ years experience be handled if these new educational requirements were set forth?

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## kcount

> Just curious how someone like me: BA in English, NCLE, ABO 20+ years experience be handled if these new educational requirements were set forth?


Your not effected, Already ABO so no changes. All present certificants would be grandfathered in so long as they maintain their ABO. In the case of a lapsed ABO they would need to meet the new minimum requirements of A.A.S and ABO/NCLE.

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## Jana Lewis

> Your not effected, Already ABO so no changes. All present certificants would be grandfathered in so long as they maintain their ABO. In the case of a lapsed ABO they would need to meet the new minimum requirements of A.A.S and ABO/NCLE.


Thank you for your response! 

My main concern is how will one will act?  We've been talking about this for years and we always seem to get the same result, infighting and disagreement on how our educational standard needs applied. 

I once was part of a very vocal group of Opticians here in Texas, I wanted to support legislation that would require higher educational requirements and certification. The problem lies with the organizations. The infighting has caused many, many people to throw up their hands! I'd rather stick and ice pick in my eye than to be sit around listening to opticians have at it about licensing and education. Seriously, it's happening on a national level, at state levels and it is even happening on optiboard. 

Opticians and the people that are actively working on education standards, I applaud you. Thank you for your efforts. If we can ever come to a sound agreement on what we need to work for then you've got me, until then I will not involve my time, or my money or my sanity!

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## wmcdonald

> Just curious how someone like me: BA in English, NCLE, ABO 20+ years experience be handled if these new educational requirements were set forth?


As stated multiple times, it would be for future Opticians. You would not be affected in any way. I will be lecturing in Arlington this weekend for that very vocal group. I know it gets tough to hear, but we have two choices; continue the battle or give up. I just can't give up. Stay with us, and if in the Dallas/Arlington area, come visit me this weekend. We can be better!

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## Jana Lewis

> As stated multiple times, it would be for future Opticians. You would not be affected in any way. I will be lecturing in Arlington this weekend for that very vocal group. I know it gets tough to hear, but we have two choices; continue the battle or give up. I just can't give up. Stay with us, and if in the Dallas/Arlington area, come visit me this weekend. We can be better!


I admire your tenacity. I've only "given up" because I am tired of fighting. I do however follow very strict guidelines in my office. No one will be hired for an Opticianry position unless they are ABO or wish to become ABO within six months of employment. I currently have a younger lady at my office whom I am helping study for the NCLE in the fall. I do my small part when I can. 

Thank you for the invite, I won't be in the Dallas area this weekend though. Very thoughtful of you to invite me however.

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## Laurie

Hello 'Boarders,

Chiming in again,

As Warren and others stated, all opticians in the loop now will be grandfathered in...   And, I would invite anyone interested in checking out some of the online offerings...they are not mickey mouse.  At HCC, we created instructional videos in a studio/video-teleconference classroom, for each and every lecture for each course...a two year development project.

Yes, face-to-face is best, as the instructor can read the body language of the student and cater each class accordingly, however, LOTS of health-care and other professions successfully deliever edu online and otherwise.

Additionally, media technology allows us to show and teach all kinds of stuff, with hands-on learning either at one of our two location campuses or at a dispensary out in the field.

I am an eternal optimist, I believe that 'if we build it, make it accessible and valuable, they will come'.  In Florida, opt apprentices receive extra hours (86. something) for every college credit earned.  We had students enroll just to get extra hours, and then saw value in the content, and enrolled full time, even though they didn't have to.

Lets build it!

: )

Laurie

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## Uilleann

So lets look at this.  We need several things to happen in order to facilitate real change correct?  Feel free to help me out if I'm missing anything here, but it seems to me that if these few things can come to pass, real change may follow:

1. National licensure requirement.

This seems the simplest solution.  But who heads it up?  ABO? (They seem completely incompetent and ineffective from the view out west here.)  The NAO?  OAA?  Obama?  Congress?

The states will N-E-V-E-R agree to a set standard, so it's clear this would need to be a national mandate.  Good ol' Utah is leading the charge this past legislative session with a plethora of "states rights message bills" aimed at telling the boys in Washington to go get f***ed.  Frankly, I'm hoping they secede and leave the rest of the rational thinking nation in peace!  :hammer:

2. Education.

This is a given.  I have no formal college/university degree, but it doesn't mean I haven't spent a good deal of time in a classroom post H.S.  Would I love to do more?  Absolutely!  Can I afford it?  (on what even a managing optician makes, with a family and most typical adult responsibilities...not even close.)  This *SHOULD* be easier to get than it is right now, and folks - tuition ain't getting a penny cheaper; online or b&m doesn't matter.  Education comes at a premium right now, and that means it is simply out of reach of many who could, I will personally guess, make outstanding opticians with the proper training.

3. Organizations.

What *precisely* is the role of organizations these days?  The _ONLY_ thing the ABO has_ EVER_ done for _ME_ in all my years certified with them, is happily collect my re-cert fees every three years.  I agree with many others here as well - the test is a complete joke.  It needs some serious revision, and questions that pertain to the reality of dispensing.  I don't give my money to any other organization yet because: A, I have none.  And B, I have zero idea of what these organizations can do both for me professionally, or for the industry as a whole.  It's like wanting to vote for the next president - yet knowing (and worse SEEING) absolutely no platform, stance, agenda, ability to perform a given task etc. etc.

Does that make sense?  Or is my underdeveloped sense of public speaking shining through again?

There are plenty here with the skill and knowledge to take this fight to the next level certainly.  Unfortunately however, there are some powerful forces fighting against any upward push in the optical world.  You can rest assured that there is a powerful lobby on the part of big business waiting to shoot down any upstarts who will, in the long run, cost their big company more money in being forced to pay higher wages to more competent staff.  On the surface, there is a push to train some in the big box setting.  I saw it first hand.  But it's not in any sort of effort to better the individual dispenser and make them more valuable to opticianry as a whole.  It's about the company in the end.

I know there are a million further points I could touch on but it's goin home time so I'm gonna do just that.  

As a final thought for now - we opticians are like a hill full of fire ants.  You can poke us with a stick all you like - and we'll all get plenty pi$$ed.  We'll run around frantic and mad all over the place.  And we'll probably bite.  I do anyway.  But it takes the promise of FOOD ($$$) to get us to line up and all march in the same direction.

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## hcjilson

I think Kcount is up to something with his idea. You probably will NEVER get all the states to mandate an associates degree as a requirement.......yet most licensed states recognize ABO and NCLE. I think one approach might be to have ABO and NCLE adopt having an associates degree as a *prerequisite* to sitting for their exam. If that were to happen, candidates for licensure would already have the education in place. ABO-NCLE would have to allow anyone already in the pipeline a pass on this requirement. Institution could be in as little as 3 years which would see anyone already in the pipeline to proceed as they do presently. This is how we were able to mandate NCLE in MA. I think this would definitely work but it would take some selling on the part of the 2 accrediting bodies.

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## Johns

> I think one approach might be to have ABO and NCLE adopt having an associates degree as a *prerequisite* to sitting for their exam.


And kill the golden goose?  

The ABO thrives on having as many people as possible sit for the exam.  What incentive would they have to raise the standards?  If they really wanted to have high standards, they could have raised them long ago.

Collect money + administer test + issue a certificate + send a renewal + collect more money....  what a business model!

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## hcjilson

That my Ohioan friend, is where the states DO have some leverage. The state licensing authority determines which test is acceptable for licensure, and that does NOT require a change in the statute, or the governing rules and regs. So it is conceivable to have a new test by a new authority requiring an AAS degree as a prerequisite if  the ABO and NCLE were to refuse. It is high time they recognize they only have the creditability that is given to them by the states. I am frankly surprised that no one has challenged this yet......and yes, I admit to being part of that problem.

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## Johns

> I think Kcount is up to something with his idea.


I have to agree that it was an excellent post, with many good ideas, I just think it's going to take an institution/group that has more will to raise the standards than the self serving board that benefits from flooding the profession w/"entry levelers".

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## Jacqui

> I have to agree that it was an excellent post, with many good ideas, I just think it's going to take an institution/group that has more will to raise the standards than the self serving board that benefits from flooding the profession w/"entry levelers".


Might be a good project for FEZZJOHNS Inc.

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## kcount

> I have to agree that it was an excellent post, with many good ideas, I just think it's going to take an institution/group that has more will to raise the standards than the self serving board that benefits from flooding the profession w/"entry levelers".


What if we were the organization?

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## rbaker

Of course there is another career training track that must be considered. Take the case of Ernesto Rangel Juarez.

Juarez petitions this court for a writ of habeas corpus releasing him from prison after the Board of Parole Hearings (Board) denied him parole and the San Mateo County Superior Court denied a previous writ petition. There is no evidence in the record to support the Board's denial, or that Juarez continues to pose an unreasonable risk of danger to society 

 Juarez's most significant work achievements have been in optical training, including his designation as a certified optician by the American Board of Opticianry in 2004. At the time of the 2008 hearing, he was continuing his assignment to the lens lab in the prison, where he had worked for 10 years, and had "very good" relationships with staff. His work and teaching skills were noteworthy. A vocational instructor at the optical lab who had worked with Juarez since 1998 wrote:"His skill, workmanship and teaching ability would be extremely valuable to potential employers. The November 2008 American Board of Optician exam resulted in 24 of 25 inmates passing to become certified opticians. This is a (96%) success rate. Juarez provided lessons to help these inmates achieve this nationally recognized professional certification. He has been dedicated to education and helping other inmates with the educational goals as long as I have known him. Juarez has passed the American Board of Opticianry Contact Lens and Spectacle Lens exams. Juarez is very suitable for employment as an Optical Technician, Dispensing Optician or teaching Optics."
The whole article is here http://www.leagle.com/unsecure/page....aco20100316011

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## DragonLensmanWV

What about us poor bozos in unlicensed states with no college degree or ABO/NCLE? I could probably get all three of my active brain cells to find somewhere to take a test, but to pass it also?
I guess I'd just have to revert back to labrat. This August will mark 38 years in the optical industry for me, but I've only three semesters of college,no degrees, all I've learned, I learned on the job or just figured it out by myself.
20 years ago we formed an association with the idea of licensure for our state. All we did was pay dues to someone in Parkersburg for two years and never got anything even close to off the ground. We had contacted Kentucky and Ohio about reciprocity, and they seemed willing.

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## Wes

Dragon, following kcounts model, if you got ABO/NCLE certified (which, face it, you could do easily) prior to this getting off the ground, you'd be grandfathered.  For the future good of the profession grandfathering current practiocioners is the only viable method.  Otherwise, there'd be zero support.

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## wmcdonald

Let him serve as a lab tech, but most professional licenses carry with them a background check, which he would have to submit himself to. In NC, morals clauses may not allow those with significant criminal records to obtain a professional license. As Harry indicates below, they will in MA. There are cases here where they have been denied, but it is a case by case kind of thing. I should have been more clear.

Thanks Harry for the clarification

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## hcjilson

A prison record by itself would not prohibit licensure. Once a debt to society has been paid, it has been paid. There are many licensed professionals who have been convicted of crimes that are allowed licenses. It would depend in large measure what the nature of the crime was. Every license application I have seen has the question Have you ever been convicted of a crime more serious than a traffic violation, or something to that effect.

The individual who has served time usually answers in the affirmative.Not to do so would be grounds for revocation and they well know this. Once known it is up to the licensing authority to run a CORI check and then determine if the crime were of a nature to endanger the public should the individual be allowed a license. It is an extremely touchy area and one in which boards tread very carefully, for obvious reasons.

_n the Commonwealth we have had a small number of those cases and yes.... we were very specific by allowing some offenders_ to be "lab techs", but you cannot deny an individual the right to earn a living once the sentence is complete unless the individual in the opinion of the authority is a threat to the public.

I apologize for getting off topic. Felons are an infinitesimal number of the whole and if anyone is interested please start another thread on that subject. you could fill pages with it I am sure and this topic will suffer if conducted here.

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## Mr. Finney

Okay, I'm going to try to enter into this discussion again with a more open mind, but let me just say...


> Again, you are insulted. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but let me say again......believe it or not......this has nothing to do with you. Folks like you are here, and make up the majority, but that must change for Opticianry to reach any positive change. What we need is to stiffen requirements. That would not eliminate you, and you obviously feel threatened by the discussion, but as stated clearly, it is about the future Optician. We cannot afford to have poorly (or those with no training at all) calling themselves Opticians in the future. If we do not improve, we wil never reach our potential. I am done with this insane debate about the value of education.





> *3-13  Education Standard Adoption*
> 
>             Whereas, the members of the Opticians Association of America (OAA) resolved to create a committee to investigate a formal education standard and report its recommendation at the 1993 annual meeting, and
>             Whereas, the committee has presented such recommendations and curriculum and determined them to be in the best interests of Opticianry as a whole, now therefore be it
>  *RESOLVED* that OAA adopt the recommendations of the appointed formal education committee with the final outcome being the present minimum standard bt which an individual may be deemed an Optician or use the term optician in the job title or description, and be it further
>  *RESOLVED* that OAA encourage and support the adoption of these standards by each state in a timely fashion.
> 
> Adopted:          June 1993
> 
> ...


...to Dr.s McDonald and Ferguson:  I don't feel threatened by this discussion, nor do I have fears about how my personal status would be affected.  My issue is how people with a lesser educational background are being referred to as not worthy of practicing Opticianry.  At least that is my perception; forgive me if I am mis-reading the intent.  But consider this:  if criminals, drug addicts, pedophiles, etc. can be "rehabilitated", I think us "unqualified" opticians probably could be also, and not on the taxpayer's dime!  I'm willing to learn more to become better at what I do, and I'll bet there are plenty more like me.  For those who aren't willing, maybe they should find somewhere else to rest.




> Recently I have been sitting on the sidelines of this discussion and have truely enjoyed the comments. Points have been made by all and the debate has been lively, but I would like to refocus on the question at hand.
> 
> If it were the case that a motion came forward to increase the level of education needed for new opticians would you be against it? Bear in mind that all currently certified Opticians would be grandfathered in so long as you did not let your certificacion laps. The education requirement would be an Associates Degree from an accredited college in liberal arts. I know this will ruffle some peoples feathers for they want the AA to come from a technical college in Opticianry, but the truth is there are very few of these schools. I'm sorry online doesn't cut it. We're talking hands on face to face classroom time. 
> 
> So, its an AA from an accredited college, then sit for the ABO/NCLE I say ABO/NCLE because in this new order the tests will be combined in to one testing session (still two tests but we take them all over one day or one weekend). All those with current, up to date ABO's will be grandfathered in with no further requirement other than continued CE's.
> 
> If we can agree to this, we can start on the road to a fundementaly sound profession with longevity.
> 
> For a historical perspective, Optometry started this same way. At every advancement of educational requirement they would grandfather all existing OD's. The path to licensure is here, and is viable. Opticians before us have marked the way they justy happened to be called prescribing opticians, in the 1800's.
> ...





> Can we assume you mean an opticianry associates, or just a liberal arts associates?  I really don't see how an unrelated degree benefits the profession.  A BS in business admin doesn't qualify me to become an RN.   
> Also, somewhere down the line, I would like to see the basic noce/clre (to be renamed apprenticing exams) become the basis for entry as a supervised apprentice and full optician status granted after passing the advanced noce/clre (to be renamed standard exams).  Now THAT would give us well qualified future opticians. It also would gain little support as evidenced by the many complaints in this thread.
> I think you may be on to something.





> Thank you Wss for asking the question. No a Liberal arts degree. This is where I'm coming from in this.
> 
> 1. A college degree teaches a person to do two things; meet deadlines and think. Thats it, nothing more. college in all its glory is designed to make young adults members of an adult society of thinkers and deadline meeters. Now, secondary education be it law school, medical school, what have you teaches you to do 'something'. Think I'm wrong? Ask your financial advisor what their degree is in. I've seen, theater, marketing, business, biology, and a host of others on the resume's my wife sifts through (she's an retained executive recruiter). The degree is there to show that you have a basic level of education greater than the HS diploma that was required of all of the rest of us.


I too like where you're both going with this.  However, how is a Liberal Arts degree going to prepare someone to sit for the ABO/NCLE?  Hence the need for the degree to be from a school with an Opticianry program.  And I really like Wes' idea of the current ABO/NCLE tests, or a facsimile thereof, being "the basis for entry as a supervised apprentice and full optician status granted after passing the advanced noce/clre (to be renamed standard exams)."  




> So lets look at this.  We need several things to happen in order to facilitate real change correct?  Feel free to help me out if I'm missing anything here, but it seems to me that if these few things can come to pass, real change may follow:
> 
> 1. National licensure requirement.
> 
> This seems the simplest solution.  But who heads it up?  ABO? (They seem completely incompetent and ineffective from the view out west here.)  The NAO?  OAA?  Obama?  Congress?
> 
> The states will N-E-V-E-R agree to a set standard, so it's clear this would need to be a national mandate.  Good ol' Utah is leading the charge this past legislative session with a plethora of "states rights message bills" aimed at telling the boys in Washington to go get f***ed.  Frankly, I'm hoping they secede and leave the rest of the rational thinking nation in peace!  :hammer:
> 
> 2. Education.
> ...


1. I'll touch on that later.
2. I agree with everything you said.
3. Agree again.
And I'll touch on the balance after Mr. Jilson's part...



> That my Ohioan friend, is where the states DO have some leverage. The state licensing authority determines which test is acceptable for licensure, and that does NOT require a change in the statute, or the governing rules and regs. So it is conceivable to have a new test by a new authority requiring an AAS degree as a prerequisite if  the ABO and NCLE were to refuse. It is high time they recognize they only have the creditability that is given to them by the states. I am frankly surprised that no one has challenged this yet......and yes, I admit to being part of that problem.


Uilleann's #1 and Mr. Jilson's post highlight the problem I see from Oklahoma; Oklahoma's ODs aren't going to agree to Massachusetts' standards, and unfortunately, the ODs here pretty much run things.  WalMart can't even get Opticals in their stores here!  And what state licensing authority?  How does the licensing authority in a non-licensed state determine anything?  So the hurdle I see is getting a national mandate when you have over half of the states lobbying against it.

Some great ideas so far though!

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## Fezz

Why bother?

I mean..........really, why bother?

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## wmcdonald

I am pleased to see you back. We are trying to improve the profession as a whole, and need people with your passion. ODs drive the ship in many places, so we must rise to new levels and attempt to overcome that concern. They will not simply give us anything.....we must earn it. Remember, MDs used to be the driving factor is every state, but in Oklahoma and several others the ODs rule the roost because they worked hard for it. Does that mean we shy away from a national standard? I do not think so. If we train at a certain level, you may not immediately be able to use the skill, but over time (it took ODs 25 years to get the right to use pharmaceutical agents) we can expand across the country. We have to prove ourselves, and then we can all advance. But it cannot be at the lowest level. It is not about current Opticians, but about making requirements stiffer for those entering the field. We can do better if we just get started! We need a collective vision of what we can become, and this is the way we develop it, through vigorous discourse. I am in Arlington Texas on Friday and returning to NC Sunday morning. If in the area, please stop by to see me at the ROATx meeting. I would love to meet you.

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## Fezz

Where is the incentive?

What is the inticement?

What is the benefit or *Payoff*?

----------


## Fezz

Would a year or two toiling away getting an education result in better outcome if a different occupation was the goal?

----------


## Fezz

Does the industry really desire uneducated Morons that can sell a frame and fill out an insurance form?

----------


## Fezz

Does the potential income warrant the educational cost outlay?

----------


## Fezz

The organizations that now represent the opticianry profession have failed terribly on just about every front! Is there any hope?

Do enough like minded souls have the Gusto and tenacity it will take to make a difference?

----------


## Fezz

I see a field of mostly apathetic, self centered, sloths who can barely make their own way, let alone make a difference!

----------


## Fezz

Why would a potential optician put the time and money into a standardized education, when the potential salary and benefits are often times less than other positions that have no educational requirements and more often than not, yield a better starting wage?

----------


## Fezz

Why become *qualified* just to be told that you are *OVER* qualified?

----------


## Fezz

If one would take a very hard look at many of the optical questions that are asked on this board, by folks who supposedly are *certified* and been doing this since Moby Dick was a minnow, one would realize that this is an industry populated by MORONS who have not a clue.

Yet, it seems, that not having a clue is the norm.

If not having a clue about TODAY is the norm, how are we going to convince the mental midgets that we should better the next group of ingrats?

----------


## Fezz

Look at the sorry state of affairs that is the state societies. They have dropped the ball, spaced out, got hell bent on the pipe dream of getting liscensure, maybe even used funds in questionable ways. Most have gone belly up. If not, they are on the respirator. Call hospice.........they are fading fast! Many of the state societies have so alienated the opticians of their state that those opticians will NEVER again trust any effort to come together. EVER!

I can't get the local opticians in my area to even get together for a few beers, BS sessions, cry and moan fests, etc. 

How in the hell will a nation wide effort ever take place?

----------


## Fezz

We as a group can not agree on the color of the sky!

It will take determined, strong willed, savvy, leaders to grasp the task at hand and have at it. It will take a group of focused individuals who have seen the past, live and practice in the present, and who have the GUSTO to make something happen!

I have it.................do you?

I am willing to travel anywhere in the United States to meet with those who are determined to make a difference, and willing to fight like hell to try it!

I have always put my money where my mouth is.............do you?

Put up or shut up!

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution!

Which are you?

----------


## wmcdonald

Are you asking me? Lets do it! I am ready and willing.....and very able to move ahead. I will even arrange a major meeting at my university where we can assemble.

----------


## Jana Lewis

> Look at the sorry state of affairs that is the state societies. They have dropped the ball, spaced out, got hell bent on the pipe dream of getting liscensure, maybe even used funds in questionable ways. Most have gone belly up. If not, they are on the respirator. Call hospice.........they are fading fast! Many of the state societies have so alienated the opticians of their state that those opticians will NEVER again trust any effort to come together. EVER!
> 
> I can't get the local opticians in my area to even get together for a few beers, BS sessions, cry and moan fests, etc. 
> 
> How in the hell will a nation wide effort ever take place?


 
AMEN! Brother Fezz!!! 

I got so sick of all the infighting and whining that I just decided to hang it up. My money, my time and my sanity is just not worth it anymore. 

If we and by "we" I mean in general came come to a consesus on what needs to happen with educational requirements without having people **** and moan I am all ears.

----------


## Jana Lewis

> Are you asking me? Lets do it! I am ready and willing.....and very able to move ahead. I will even arrange a major meeting at my university where we can assemble.


Mr McDonald, no one can deny that you are busting your backside to make a difference, thank you for your efforts. I agree with your premise very much. Is it possible to get a strong group of willing participants together that won't **** and moan and waste our time and money? The status quo is just not working.

----------


## Mr. Finney

I was SO close to going to the ROATx meeting, but it's a spring break weekend, the last one with my daughter, so I chose family over career this time.  Under other circumstances, I would have loved to have gone and to have met you, Dr. McDonald.  As for you Fezz, my virtual beer buddy, I am left wondering if your mind works in little spurts, or if your multiple posts over a short time were for effect? :Cool:   I'm guessing the latter, but then again, I don't know how many beers you had last night.:bbg:

----------


## Fezz

> As for you Fezz, my virtual beer buddy, I am left wondering if your mind works in little spurts, or if your multiple posts over a short time were for effect? I'm guessing the latter, but then again, I don't know how many beers you had last night.:bbg:


 
It was all for effect.

No beer last night! 

It was *Wine Wednesday*!

:bbg::cheers::cheers::cheers::bbg:

----------


## Uilleann

So it seems very clear that a national level of competency should be mandated.  This is what the ABO is *supposed* to represent correct?  But it doesn't.  The ABO is a complete joke.  I don't trust them any further than I can spit - uphill, in a strong wind.  I *HATE* giving them my money, because I get *nothing* back from them.  And yet, I as well as most(?) opticians in the US do so.

So this leaves us with some form of national government requirement for minimum competency.  A national licensure.  But you'll just as soon get states to agree on health care reform, global warming or the death penalty as you will on the current and future state of opticianry here.  It's _NEVER_ going to happen as things are now.  _NEVER_. 

There are two things that need to happen, and even with both perfectly in place _today_, it would still take years and years to move even an inch forward with this much needed overhaul in describing minimum competencies in our profession.  We need motivated leaders - we can find those easily enough.  And we need a $hi* TON of money.  I know I don't have it.  Do you?  Sadly, they don't offer grants that I know of for stuff like this.

I will personally volunteer to head up a state organization in Utah.  Bring it the hell ON!  I am frankly disgusted at the level of knowledge displayed by so many of my "peers" in this state.  I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of opticians I know locally here who are worth a toss at all.  It's well past time for growth, change, proper education, and a much more stringent requirement for more, and better CE.  When I can get all of my required 3 years worth (12 hours) of continuing "education" (in the form of glorified ads from various lens manufacturers or other industry suppliers) in the space of an afternoon online, it doesn't do anything for me, or our profession.

I'm standing here - ready and waiting, but without a penny to throw at this beast.  If anyone will join me, I'm ready to take on the fight.  I'm well aware of the old idiom: "The road to he(ll) is paved with good intentions."  And without a huge amount of money and a frighteningly powerful lobby in our corner, I don't know how this can provide the fruits we seek.

Adding to this, as Fezz puts so perfectly, there is little to no incentive for the average optician today to put an ounce of effort into this task - as they will see no reward for their otherwise monumental efforts.  There are some of us who would do it for the peace of mind that our own education is held to a higher standard, and that we are thusly better able to serve our patients.  But I will make the bold assertion that the vast majority of dispensers today truly don't care one iota unless there's a dollar sign attached.  And really - why should they?

Lawyers charge insane amounts of money for what amounts to (seemingly) little work.  Surgeons the same.  There are a number of professions that can demand a premium for their services.  But just about every one I can think of also is held to a rather strict set of entry requirements (not always educational, but frequently so) and that requirement set is frequently fairly uniform across the country.  I believe this fight goes well beyond establishing a minimum educational requirement - as a given degree program will vary in its efficacy and scope as much as the posters do on these forums.  So to exhibit a minimum competency should be a requirement in my mind - not just a piece of paper stating a degree of study.  I think that while everyone can benefit from a quality education, that to put major emphasis there is potentially barking up the wrong tree.

SO - with all that said, I'm still ready and willing to head up what I can here.  We, the pi$$ed off fire ants of Utah (and by we I mean _ME_ so far!) are ready to BITE!

----------


## YrahG

> 2. Education.
> 
> This is a given.  I have no formal college/university degree, but it doesn't mean I haven't spent a good deal of time in a classroom post H.S.  Would I love to do more?  Absolutely!  Can I afford it?  (on what even a managing optician makes, with a family and most typical adult responsibilities...not even close.)  This *SHOULD* be easier to get than it is right now, and folks - tuition ain't getting a penny cheaper; online or b&m doesn't matter.  Education comes at a premium right now, and that means it is simply out of reach of many who could, I will personally guess, make outstanding opticians with the proper training.





> I will personally volunteer to head up a state  organization in Utah.  Bring it the hell ON!  I am frankly disgusted at  the level of knowledge displayed by so many of my "peers" in this state.   I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of  opticians I know locally here who are worth a toss at all.  It's well  past time for growth, change, proper education, and a much more  stringent requirement for more, and better CE.  When I can get all of my  required 3 years worth (12 hours) of continuing "education" (in the  form of glorified ads from various lens manufacturers or other industry  suppliers) in the space of an afternoon online, it doesn't do anything  for me, or our profession.


This may come off as rude but it is a prime example.  With no formal education do you think it would really be prudent to put someone such as yourself in a position of leadership?  We face this issue now, although there are those that can see past themselves the majority can not.  Any leadership position should be held by those our industry sees as an example to follow.  If the end goal is to have opticians with a minimum of an AA then maybe leaders with a minimum of an AA is in order, after all they have put in the time and effort.  

I am not saying by any means that anyone else isn't welcome or suggestions should not be welcomed, but our leaders need to be the strongest of the bunch. Someone without the proper credentials can still volunteer and help within a organization but you gotta pay to play.

On a side note I don't see any value in improving the ABO or NCLE unless the current leaders in place at these institutions are replaced and the tests updated.  This in itself would be a monumental task, it would be easier to create a new test and have it meet higher standards.  Dr Ferguson who has posted in this thread has a practical examination that is supposed to be rigorous, some states already use this test as a part of their licensure, why not throw some lipstick on that pig and make it a national examination the funds generated could be used to advance a cause.  I would hope that cause would not be licensure, I do not advocate dumping money into things that are not meant to happen yet.  Maybe use those funds to set up scholarships to ease the burden of going to school, maybe use part of it to set up new programs across the country.

Another idea would be to create a curriculum that can be given to technical schools like YTI and the many others out there in non licensed states, the current goal being to create more programs and have their curriculum be uniform.  These schools can be given grant money (made from testing) to set up their programs with Dr Ferguson's practical as the accepted standard for entry into the field.  Basically create the market for the test, the idea being that this new test would be an ABO killer.  The ABO would be forced to raise there standards or have competition of a higher caliber.

----------


## Johns

> On a side note I don't see any value in improving the ABO or NCLE unless the current leaders in place at these institutions are replaced and the tests updated.


It is much easier (and cheaper) to build a new house, than to rehab one that's foundation is rotted beyond repair.

Just start over...

----------


## wmcdonald

> Mr McDonald, no one can deny that you are busting your backside to make a difference, thank you for your efforts. I agree with your premise very much. Is it possible to get a strong group of willing participants together that won't **** and moan and waste our time and money? The status quo is just not working.


Not if we do not continue to try. Then we get nothing. There are many out there who want to see change happen, and yes it can be done. As to Fezz's multiple question, it too ODs many years to reach their goal. They all had a comon background and focus. It will take us longer, but we can work towards increasing requirements (building that common background), which will then focus us in the right direction. Will it be worth it financially......not tomorrow, but down the road.....yes! Optometry started because in the early 1900s there was a group of apathetic individuals who did feel the need not to move forward. We can do the same thing. I have a vision of Opticians that can participate more effectively and independently in the eye care delivery system. It can happen, but if we do not step up to the plate, we don't have a chance. Ifwe wait too much loner, it will not matter. We must do better.

----------


## optical24/7

Which came firstThe chicken or the egg?


Imho, we must get licensure prior to mandating education. How else are you going to mandate education? Ill use Texas as an example. We do have voluntary registration here. To be registered with the state you need basic ABO certification along with five current CE credits (along with a minimal fee). To maintain your registration you must complete 10 hours every two years. 

 We are approaching the task of licensure by amending our current voluntary bill to mandatory. There will be a grandfathering period to where you only need to be state registered. (There are over 1700 current ABO certified out of the over 4000 opticians in the state). After the grandfathering period, either an Associates Degree or apprentice 6240 hours along with taking a practical exam will be required to be licensed. Eventually, when the state created Opticianry Board decides enough infrastructure is in place, the apprentice clause will be retired.

Licensure is a common sense issue. For the protection of the public, we need requirements in place to insure a unified, basic level of knowledge is available in every location that sells eyewear or dispenses CLs. Im sure many of you have seen what I see regularly. Like the patient last week complaining she couldnt see out of her new PALs she got from a competitor 2 months ago. Both lenses were edged 45 degrees off. She took them back twice, both times being told they were correct!

 Licensure can lead to a stable platform to increase educational requirements. If we wish the field to remain viable, let alone expand scope of practice, we must educate our field, uniformly. Even Mater Opticians vary greatly in their own individual knowledge. We need a structured curriculum with agreed upon criteria of skills and knowledge expected upon completion. 

 As other have mentioned, if you are in opticianry today it will be easy to stay in it. We must and will have grandfathering. With the current ABO basic exam being a relatively easy test to pass, theres no reason anyone practicing opticianry today couldnt pass with little to no prep time. ( My nephew went from Taco Bell to ABO Certified in 2 months!)

We must prepare now if there is going to be a future for opticianry. I will be at the ROATx Convention in Arlington discussing this, and other legislative issues further. I encourage anybody interested to drop by! 

George Karber  ABOC-AC
ROATx Legislative Chairman

----------


## YrahG

> It is much easier (and cheaper) to build a new house, than to rehab one that's foundation is rotted beyond repair.
> 
> Just start over...


Agreed wholeheartedly, please read the rest of that post for a outline for a potential scenario to accomplish that task.  I will go one step further and tell you I would not be the guy you would want to follow.  I get things done and I think but I don't do both at the same time very well, with that said their always seems to be a lack of doers and an abundance of thinkers so I have decided long ago that I will leave the thinking to the more qualified thinkers just give me tasks to do and I get them done.  This is also a key place our current leaders fail, we have the dumb and blind doing the thinking based on the vision they see for our future.  Much of our talent is disenfranchised with our organizations so we're left with the crap we have now.

----------


## Uilleann

> This may come off as rude but it is a prime example.  With no formal education do you think it would really be prudent to put someone such as yourself in a position of leadership?  We face this issue now, although there are those that can see past themselves the majority can not.  Any leadership position should be held by those our industry sees as an example to follow.  If the end goal is to have opticians with a minimum of an AA then maybe leaders with a minimum of an AA is in order, after all they have put in the time and effort.


Here, you are correct.  It does in fact come off _to me_ as rather rude - and if I may add, highly short sighted.  I'm very sorry, but you have extremely little knowledge of the complete scope education and training I've had and continue to undertake, or any pieces of paper I may or may not be sporting to that end.   So that does come off as a markedly unqualified statement.  Moreover, there is absolutely NO means to _effectively_ measure who may have a better skill set at say: grant writing, public speaking, political lobbying...etc. than another - degree, degrees, graduate school, or not.   For that matter - let's define "better".  I know a large number of folks who have gone to university and still have appallingly bad skill sets, even in their fields of major study.  By the same token, I've had classes from a number of individuals in the optical industry with a veritable alphabet of letters after their names, masters of their craft (and one would hope knowledge of the same) who were dismally poor in both subject, content and delivery.  So to paint with that overly-broad brush, I feel does _all_ of us a major disservice. 




> I am not saying by any means that anyone else isn't welcome or suggestions should not be welcomed, but our leaders need to be the strongest of the bunch. Someone without the proper credentials can still volunteer and help within a organization but you gotta pay to play.


Again, I feel this is cutting off the nose to spite the face.  As with the educational requirements of the current ABO examinations, there is ZERO guarantee that a passing score on the test is any real world measure of ability.  And therein lies the crux of our problem.  You can require "education", or you can require a measured_ level/degree of COMPETENCY_ directly related both to our field, and to the causes of our field.  I feel they are mutually exclusive of each other in so much as education can not, and with a seemingly alarming rate if increased frequency does not, guarantee the latter.  Ours is not a perfect educational world - particularly at a university level, and to be cognizant about the reality of this potential disparity would be very wise if we truly wish to gain positive momentum and move forward. 




> On a side note I don't see any value in improving the ABO or NCLE unless the current leaders in place at these institutions are replaced and the tests updated.  This in itself would be a monumental task, it would be easier to create a new test and have it meet higher standards.  Dr Ferguson who has posted in this thread has a practical examination that is supposed to be rigorous, some states already use this test as a part of their licensure, why not throw some lipstick on that pig and make it a national examination the funds generated could be used to advance a cause.  I would hope that cause would not be licensure, I do not advocate dumping money into things that are not meant to happen yet.  Maybe use those funds to set up scholarships to ease the burden of going to school, maybe use part of it to set up new programs across the country.


In theory, I would agree wholeheartedly with the first thought of this statement.   The ABO is a gorilla that doesn't want to be changed and certainly not moved or worse...replaced.  The "leadership" seems to me to be as ineffective for any real cause of furthering our profession as they could possibly be.  However, by the same token, aren't the very people you're aiming to replace in the above scenario the same with the advanced degrees and all the skills one would _hope_ to see in these leadership positions already?   I believe it is rather clear that the status quo isn't working.  Obviously, if the people in these current leadership positions who _*should*_ be more than qualified to not only lead us, but to never have let opticianry get into it's current state, are the cream of the crop...I want off this carousel.   All the education and degrees in the world aren't fixing the complete and utter lack of leadership now exhibited.




> Another idea would be to create a curriculum that can be given to technical schools like YTI and the many others out there in non licensed states, the current goal being to create more programs and have their curriculum be uniform.  These schools can be given grant money (made from testing) to set up their programs with Dr Ferguson's practical as the accepted standard for entry into the field.  Basically create the market for the test, the idea being that this new test would be an ABO killer.  The ABO would be forced to raise there standards or have competition of a higher caliber.


This could be a highly motivating factor for ABO to raise their standards.  But then again we're working with a very finite resource here - optician's dollars.  why will ABO raise their standards?  To offer the same test someone else is offering in that scenario?  And why would they do that?  If I have money for only one test as an optician, I'll opt for the best one, and ignore the other.  And I promise you, with the money they're raking in hand over fist right now, the ABO doesn't want to be ignored.  Not from a financial standpoint.  They'd very likely put up a huge fight for those dollars they otherwise would stand to loose.   So now we'd have a potential for even greater in-fighting and division in our industry - precisely something we *DO NOT NEED*.

So where does this leave us?  Who's going to lead?  Who's going to instigate the change we so desperately need?  Who YrahG?  Yourself?  Let me be the first to support you if you're ready to take on this bull by it's horns and facilitate change!  If you feel you personally are far more qualified than I am to do any of this than I am - then BY ALL MEANS!  STEP UP!   As Fezz loves to state, and I'm with him 100% in this issue - either you're part of the problem, or part of the solution.  Which are you?

I have never in my life claimed to be an expert at all things.  Nor will I EVER claim that in this fight.  But I'm ready to stand up and be counted as one who is working for major reform, change and (so I hope) immediate and continual improvement of the state of our profession.  If you know of any better in my state, in my city...please feel free to light a HUGE fire under them and I will GLADLY give them 100% of my support to GET THE JOB DONE!  I'm looking for the best way I can be a direct part of a solution.  And I have enough knowledge to know I can only be part of the solution if I am working towards that end.  Which is precisely what I'm going to do!

:cheers:

----------


## idispense

McDonald & FezzBeer & Man of a few well chosen Words, Johns :

Canada did it , but it ain't a bed of roses. While we are all sleeping & debating , the internet is stealing our cheese and the unauthorized dispensers are taking their piece of the pie , and then we have corruption ,too . But our provinces are all licensed ! 

There is still a long way to go and things to fix. 

Fezz is right Ya'll gotta stand up and be counted , or shut up. Johns is right about building new . McDonald ,for you , I take my hat off and Canadian Olympic red mitts too !

Toss me one of those Samuel Adams drinks and I will salute your style too, Santini . 

Canada did it and the States should be able to follow our lead.

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

At the 1992 OAA Leadership Conference I made a speech regarding the need for minimum education requirements.   The contents are about 4 pages long; otherwise I would post it in this forum.  If anyone would like a copy, send me an email.  

Once the OAA adopted the minimum education resolution no states that I can recall used it as a basis for embracing the standard or raising entry standards.  Simply, most of the leadership viewed higher education as a threat to their positions as well as an economic burden.  In Tennessee, the association led a very effective and vicious fight to insure such steps would never be taken.  Im sure the same occurred in other states to one degree or another.

Im not discussing this history to discourage anyone.  The need for education is an important now as it was then.  However, dont assume that just because it is necessary for the survival and expansion of the field that there will be universal acceptance.  As you have seen in this discussion there are many who needlessly fear that an educated optician will be a threat to their career rather than an elevating factor for the entire profession.  

With all that said, I would still be willing to fight the fight once more.  Set the date for a conference Warren, Ill be there.

Roy

----------


## Uilleann

Roy, I would love a copy of your speech, and will send you my email.  Education is SO important to every single living breathing human being on the planet.  I don't believe there is a single participant here who would disagree with that.  But it's implementation as it relates to the bettering and furthering of opticianry as a medical profession is a tricky business - at best.  I think just about all of us get that.  There are a surprising number of very powerful (or at the least very LOUD) voices that will oppose anything that reason and common sense tells us is a good thing however.  And when they're shouting in the ear of the policy makers as in the case you mention in TN, it only serves to put us that much further behind in a movement to improve opticianry today and in future.

So how do you out those who don't want to be outed?  How do we clean house properly, and replace the ineffective with the effective?  What is the best means for us to achieve our desired ends?  Simply being educated isn't enough.  And even putting the educated in positions of weight and power isn't enough either (as evidenced by our current "leadership".)  What will be the most effective method of moving forward as a unified voice, and work for real and permanent change?

All the best!

Brian~

----------


## wmcdonald

Most of our leadership currently has 0 education.

----------


## YrahG

> Here, you are correct.  It does in fact come off _to me_ as rather rude - and if I may add, highly short sighted.  I'm very sorry, but you have extremely little knowledge of the complete scope education and training I've had and continue to undertake, or any pieces of paper I may or may not be sporting to that end.   So that does come off as a markedly unqualified statement.  Moreover, there is absolutely NO means to _effectively_ measure who may have a better skill set at say: grant writing, public speaking, political lobbying...etc. than another - degree, degrees, graduate school, or not.   For that matter - let's define "better".  I know a large number of folks who have gone to university and still have appallingly bad skill sets, even in their fields of major study.  By the same token, I've had classes from a number of individuals in the optical industry with a veritable alphabet of letters after their names, masters of their craft (and one would hope knowledge of the same) who were dismally poor in both subject, content and delivery.  So to paint with that overly-broad brush, I feel does _all_ of us a major disservice. 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I feel this is cutting off the nose to spite the face.  As with the educational requirements of the current ABO examinations, there is ZERO guarantee that a passing score on the test is any real world measure of ability.  And therein lies the crux of our problem.  You can require "education", or you can require a measured_ level/degree of COMPETENCY_ directly related both to our field, and to the causes of our field.  I feel they are mutually exclusive of each other in so much as education can not, and with a seemingly alarming rate if increased frequency does not, guarantee the latter.  Ours is not a perfect educational world - particularly at a university level, and to be cognizant about the reality of this potential disparity would be very wise if we truly wish to gain positive momentum and move forward. 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory, I would agree wholeheartedly with the first thought of this statement.   The ABO is a gorilla that doesn't want to be changed and certainly not moved or worse...replaced.  The "leadership" seems to me to be as ineffective for any real cause of furthering our profession as they could possibly be.  However, by the same token, aren't the very people you're aiming to replace in the above scenario the same with the advanced degrees and all the skills one would _hope_ to see in these leadership positions already?   I believe it is rather clear that the status quo isn't working.  Obviously, if the people in these current leadership positions who _*should*_ be more than qualified to not only lead us, but to never have let opticianry get into it's current state, are the cream of the crop...I want off this carousel.   All the education and degrees in the world aren't fixing the complete and utter lack of leadership now exhibited.
> ...


I'm sorry if my statements offend you but I cannot retract them and your long post does nothing to show how my thinking is flawed.  Matter of fact your post is one of the very reasons why you should not be in a leadership position, NOW.  You seem to have the fire in your belly, you seem well articulated, but by your own admittance you have no formal degree and you question the value.  How do you propose talking the talk without walking the walk?  Do you think others in the state would feel that if you can be in a leadership position with ZERO formal education why couldn't they?  A degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in a program, it encompasses everything the hoops you have to jump through and the dedication that it takes to complete a degree.  The shortest takes about 2 years which means from start to finish you will have 4 semesters of filling out FAFSA's for grant money, filling out documents to secure loans, signing a lease if your living off campus, working to support yourself if parents don't fund the education, etc.  I call it the gauntlet, if you haven't run through it you can **** and moan about the value of it, but you'll never really know.  Now I have meet some of the brightest opticians in this field and they are without a doubt some of the smartest individuals I have meet but without that "paper" they are a detriment to moving forward.  That's the whole idea, how do we ensure that the mistakes of the past don't repeat themselves in a new organization if that is truly what is being discussed here.  My thought is do not allow those without the minimum credentials that we seek to implement into the ranks.  If that means a divide then, I think at this point it becomes necessary.  I would hope that if there was ever a divide I can count on you to be on our side, those that value education.

----------


## HarryChiling

> With all that said, I would still be willing to fight the fight once more.  Set the date for a conference Warren, I’ll be there.
> 
> Roy


Dr McDonald and Dr Ferguson,

I have seen over the years that if there is any motive behind your pushing so hard to make this profession better it's only going to help me and those I like to call opticians and brothers.  With that said either one of you says jump and my response will be how high.  Count me in to any conference and I'll pick Fezz up this go round. so that's Fezz+1.

I would also like to add whatever standard is discussed and set in place as the minimum, I don't want to be grandfathered into anything.  I'll earn my stripes.

Dr Ferguson, 
I would love a copy of that speach or document, my email address **********, Thanks

----------


## idispense

What is missing is a Unifying Event . An event that will unify all states . A reason to be unified  . A reason to want to move up the ladder. All you have now is debate and a pissing contest. 

And yet a national contest to solve optical problems might be the answer. Prizes and money motivate. There is no motivation for an unlicensed person in an unlicensed state making 8.00 an hour to want to spend more time and money to still earn 8.00 per hour and the stores they work for see no reason to pay more and have more rules .

So , you need a national motivating event . A National Contest or other unifying event. 

Stop worrying about who the leader is until you can think of the Unifying Event. 

If you saw the movie INVICTUS , then you know that the sport and game unified the nation and brought them together.

----------


## idispense

For a small entry fee, each person could enter a National Contest to win say 5000.00 by answering some progresively more difficult optical questions or solving difficult patient cases. As you get more entrants , then the Grand Prize could increase. 

It could start by being a City contest , then that winner goes to a State contest and so on up to a National winner. To win you need knowledge. There could be beginner categories and experienced categories . 

It could also just be an online contest , with the resources on line to provide the correct answers if the person successfully reads and comprehends the material. As they read the material , they also send in the answers and get CE credits if they are in a licensed state or they get some other prize. 

You have to have a unifying event and reason to try harder and reason to want more education. 

Games are fun . Learning would be fun and purposeful . With entry fees it could be self funding.

Rodeos, motorcycle racing , football, basketball, baseball etc , they are all unifying contests that bring like minded people together for fun and challenge.

----------


## Jana Lewis

> Stop worrying about who the leader is until you can think of the Unifying Event.


The truth hurts... this has been my beef all along. Opticians in general cannot agree on squat! So many of us get tired of all the drama and moaning! UNITY is the only way this will ever work, this needs to be our focus. If we could just get our national organizations to stop squabbling and get on the band wagon with a unified message then I think we would see much more support. 

Good post idispense!

----------


## adam f sizemore

just a thought but could the problem lie with the consumer? getting the wrong glasses or contacts will not kill and may not even harm you but unlike other prescriptions that can then the consumer has no care if we are all licensed or not. the consumer just doesnt care about this profession the way we do.

----------


## Uilleann

> I'm sorry if my statements offend you but I cannot retract them and your long post does nothing to show how my thinking is flawed.  Matter of fact your post is one of the very reasons why you should not be in a leadership position, NOW.


I'm not here to prove or disprove how flawed anyone's thinking may or may not be.  That's entirely up to you alone.  Your accusations are patently false in regards to what you feel you "know" about me - and that's ok.  I am still waiting for you to provide either yourself, or anyone else more "qualified" to "lead" this movement here locally.  

I'm not interested in chest thumping, that is a waste of time and energy, particularly with any who can't see past the end of their own nose.  As I stated, I'm more than thrilled to do what I can, and let others do what they can, where they can.  My end desire is _not_ to take on the challenge of reforming our current position single-handedly, but  instead to be one cog (and with luck a very useful one at that), in a very complex machine of reform and change.




> You seem to have the fire in your belly, you seem well articulated, but by your own admittance you have no formal degree and you question the value.  How do you propose talking the talk without walking the walk?  Do you think others in the state would feel that if you can be in a leadership position with ZERO formal education why couldn't they?


Again, you make an assumption about something you really know nothing about - and a rather personal attack yet again.  Not sure what you're trying to prove, but regardless of whatever your motivating thoughts might be, they in no way help the cause of opticianry.  I have never "questioned the value" of education.  You are 100% incorrect in making that claim.  I do question the absolute admission of any given degree as the end all, be all for the advancement of opticianry.  A degree can be had many different ways in today's society, and degree A does NOT mean it is identical to degree B - even if on paper, they say the same thing.  This has always been the case.




> A degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in a program, it encompasses everything the hoops you have to jump through and the dedication that it takes to complete a degree.  The shortest takes about 2 years which means from start to finish you will have 4 semesters of filling out FAFSA's for grant money, filling out documents to secure loans, signing a lease if your living off campus, working to support yourself if parents don't fund the education, etc.  I call it the gauntlet, if you haven't run through it you can **** and moan about the value of it, but you'll never really know.


I disagree with your assertions here.  You can no more assume that any given individual did any of the things you describe here just because they have this degree or that 'under their belt', than you can divine the weather by reading the pattern in your old tea leaves.  The blanket assumptions of what makes an individual "qualified" to perform a given task set based solely on a general degree seems to be at best reckless and destructive to our cause.  You don't have to teach to comprehend the value of a teacher...or to spot a bad one.  Make sense?





> Now I have meet some of the brightest opticians in this field and they are without a doubt some of the smartest individuals I have meet but without that "paper" they are a detriment to moving forward.  That's the whole idea, how do we ensure that the mistakes of the past don't repeat themselves in a new organization if that is truly what is being discussed here.  My thought is do not allow those without the minimum credentials that we seek to implement into the ranks.  If that means a divide then, I think at this point it becomes necessary.  I would hope that if there was ever a divide I can count on you to be on our side, those that value education.


Again, I will state that I don't believe there is a single member of these boards who finds _zero_ value in education, and further in their own education.  To state that without a given degree alone, that any qualified "smart" optician is "a detriment" is a very frightening statement to make.  I don't believe for a second that the none of the people "in charge" of our organizations right now have zero education or any degrees.  They're doing nothing for us - and neither are their various diplomas on the wall.

I do applaud your desire to seek a minimum level of general education in the field of opticianry.  However, and again as I stated earlier, that cannot be used as a sole benchmark of _ability_ in our field.  The ABO, as flawed as it is, was designed to demonstrate a basic (if not extremely minimal) operational knowledge of opticianry.  And yet - even though it very probably should have been the national standard - it fails miserably.  Raising the standards to a new level is required to improve this state, I believe we all agree on that point here.  However a degree, no matter how great or small, or from any given institution, does nothing to guarantee what we're truly after.

Believe me when I say _education is vital!_  But what we seek is so much more than that alone.

All the best!

----------


## wmcdonald

We are again getting a bit heated, and probably should try to re-focus a bit. There is much we need, besides an education. A degree does not mean someone is necessarily smarter, but it does prove one thing......they underwent a program of study that proves they completed requirements for a given body of knowledge. Will a degree make you bend a temple better? Of course, not, but it will provide for those looking at us from the outside that we have some level of education. At present, we cannot complete with ODs legislatively, but with a degree, coupled with our practical training that would be formalized into a specifice structure, we at least have a leg to stand on. It is all about appearances. We must develop some structure across the country, and that includes education. Once that is done, then we can legislate more effectively. ANy guarantees? No. Will it be easy? No. But if we listen to many of you we would all just quit and go home. Do not surrender. We can do better! 

And before someone reads this and thinks they may have to learn something new if they are currently practicing as an Optician, please read the thread. We are seeking to discuss the need to stiffen requirements for FUTURE Opticians.

----------


## braheem24

Higher standards without legistlatin and enforcement of internet sales as an illegal act will be the demise of opticianary.

Higher degree graduates will expect a higher salary, a higher salary will ultimately come from more expensive eyewear because of the higher standards and specialization.  If internet sales are allowed to continue illegally and not play by the same rules, it will force the brick and mortar dispensaries out of business.

----------


## Barry Santini

I disagree, braheem24.

Specialty products, and the clients who desire excellent service and care with state of the art products, will always find them in a B&M location.

Not everyone wants its cheaper.  I certainly don'y buy this way.

B

----------


## Uilleann

> We are again getting a bit heated, and probably should try to re-focus a bit. There is much we need, besides an education. A degree does not mean someone is necessarily smarter, but it does prove one thing......they underwent a program of study that proves they completed requirements for a given body of knowledge. Will a degree make you bend a temple better? Of course, not, but it will provide for those looking at us from the outside that we have some level of education. At present, we cannot complete with ODs legislatively, but with a degree, coupled with our practical training that would be formalized into a specifice structure, we at least have a leg to stand on. It is all about appearances. We must develop some structure across the country, and that includes education. Once that is done, then we can legislate more effectively. ANy guarantees? No. Will it be easy? No. But if we listen to many of you we would all just quit and go home. Do not surrender. We can do better! 
> 
> And before someone reads this and thinks they may have to learn something new if they are currently practicing as an Optician, please read the thread. We are seeking to discuss the need to stiffen requirements for FUTURE Opticians.


Agreed - to a point.  Education is a vital and key component to ANY advancement of a technical field I believe.  Medical fields even more so.  However, to apply the same logic to the current ABO test, it "proves they completed requirements for a given body of knowledge."  But as I think we all know far too well, it:

A. Is absolutely NO guarantee of competency even so.
&
B. Demonstrates that even WITH an ABO certification, the view of the public is little (if any) changed as to the role/ability/competency of a given optician to 'outperform' their peers in the field.

A very real point is made that this is as much about public perceptions of the need for opticians in a world where one can now take their own measurements and fit their own glasses online.  Thankfully, most consumers are intelligent enough to see that train wreck for what it is, but I would strongly agree that internet regulation, and even prohibition is important for the future of dispensing and opticianry in general.

When you look at it - the public isn't concerned much at all with the diplomas, certifications or licenses on the wall of most health care practitioners.  To be frank, I _assume_ that my own health care providers are perfectly qualified to treat my needs in the most effective manner possible.  I'm far more concerned in my day to day life if the department of health certificate is current at the restaurant I eat dinner in!

So it would seem to stand to reason, that a massive public education campaign be undertaken as well, so support the cause of public awareness of what a (possibly future) nationally licensed optician truly is, and why it is (again, hopefully in future) required to fit eyeglasses.

But again, this requires two things we don't have yet:  National licensure, and standardized (and vastly improved) educational and practical standards.

So, back to the beginning again.  Let's get the ball moving in that direction.  Locally, then regionally, and ultimately nationally.  But unless there's a unified voice, it will go exactly where it's always gone.....nowhere.  

*Batter up!*

----------


## Uilleann

> I disagree, braheem24.
> 
> Specialty products, and the clients who desire excellent service and care with state of the art products, will always find them in a B&M location.
> 
> Not everyone wants its cheaper.  I certainly don't buy this way.
> 
> B


Barry, the trouble is mandating that EVERYONE buy that way however - right?  I mean, that is what we're after isn't it?  We want to regulate the entry into the field from where it is today (anyone with a pulse can do it - as seems to be the consensus), to a place where it takes not only motivation and smarts, but a demonstrated dedication to both the field, and one's own professional and educational integrity.  Raising the bar, so that we can all dispense at a level closer to where you are today.  That's a GREAT PLACE TO BE!  And not to say that we wish to dilute your own accomplishments, you inspire so many of us here daily!  But rather to, if I may say so, use you as a a benchmark that we should all aspire to achieve - and hopefully even more - as an entire profession.

----------


## kcount

> ... just give me tasks to do and I get them done. This is also a key place our current leaders fail, we have the dumb and blind doing the thinking based on the vision they see for our future. Much of our talent is disenfranchised with our organizations so we're left with the crap we have now.


YrahG, here's a mission. Go get supporters in your area. Get them to sign on to a movement that we're starting here and now. Its time for Opticians to stand up and be counted.




> It is much easier (and cheaper) to build a new house, than to rehab one that's foundation is rotted beyond repair.
> 
> Just start over...


Agreed. So, lets set fire to Rome and watch it all burn.




> Here, you are correct. It does in fact come off _to me_ as rather rude.....:cheers:





> I'm sorry if my statements offend you.... .


Would you two please stop squabling. Your filling my in box with insanely long posts that interupt my cocktailing. 

Cheers to you both. You each have a place in this new order. Now kiss and make up and get supporters in your area.





> Dr McDonald and Dr Ferguson,
> 
> I have seen over the years that if there is any motive behind your pushing so hard to make this profession better it's only going to help me and those I like to call opticians and brothers. With that said either one of you says jump and my response will be how high. Count me in to any conference and I'll pick Fezz up this go round. so that's Fezz+1.
> 
> I would also like to add whatever standard is discussed and set in place as the minimum, I don't want to be grandfathered into anything. I'll earn my stripes.
> 
> Dr Ferguson, 
> I would love a copy of that speach or document, my email address harrychiling "@t" gmail ".dot" com


Harry, you just rock.




> ... And before someone reads this and thinks they may have to learn something new if they are currently practicing as an Optician, please read the thread. We are seeking to discuss the need to stiffen requirements for FUTURE Opticians.


Dr. McDolald lets start talking about dates and time's




> Higher standards without legistlatin and enforcement of internet sales as an illegal act will be the demise of opticianary.
> 
> Higher degree graduates will expect a higher salary, a higher salary will ultimately come from more expensive eyewear because of the higher standards and specialization. If internet sales are allowed to continue illegally and not play by the same rules, it will force the brick and mortar dispensaries out of business.


Agreed and this needs to be a focus on future points when this all gets off the ground.

----------


## kcount

> I disagree, braheem24.
> 
> Specialty products, and the clients who desire excellent service and care with state of the art products, will always find them in a B&M location.
> 
> Not everyone wants its cheaper. I certainly don'y buy this way.
> 
> B


Just had a lady come in, only wants high end. Blinde was too low end for her.  Your concept lives!

----------


## Fezz

I would like to see a first gathering by mid-June. Warren has offered a gathering place, which works fine for me. I am open to venture elsewhere as well. I would love to chat with anybody who is ready to step up. PM me contact info and I will prank you, err...ahh, I mean call you and start an open dialogue. I am energized by the potential! I am humbled by the dedication and devotion that both Dr. McDonald and Dr. Ferguson share. These two men have fought to make a difference for years. I want to personally thank them for their struggles and embrace their offer to help!

I feel an overwhelming need to show these warriors that all was not in vain. They have made a difference. I need to try and make a difference as well.

The situation is dire, the current leadership has failed, and I refuse to bend over without at least trying. 

What is the right way, what is the wrong way? Who knows! 

The important thing is that the current sorry state of affairs has opened up new dialogue amongst us and we should grasp and embrace it and try to make a difference.

----------


## kcount

> I would like to see a first gathering by mid-June. Warren has offered a gathering place, which works fine for me. I am open to venture elsewhere as well. I would love to chat with anybody who is ready to step up. PM me contact info and I will prank you, err...ahh, I mean call you and start an open dialogue. I am energized by the potential! I am humbled by the dedication and devotion that both Dr. McDonald and Dr. Ferguson share. These two men have fought to make a difference for years. I want to personally thank them for their struggles and embrace their offer to help!
> 
> I feel an overwhelming need to show these warriors that all was not in vain. They have made a difference. I need to try and make a difference as well.
> 
> The situation is dire, the current leadership has failed, and I refuse to bend over without at least trying. 
> 
> What is the right way, what is the wrong way? Who knows! 
> 
> The important thing is that the current sorry state of affairs has opened up new dialogue amongst us and we should grasp and embrace it and try to make a difference.


PM sent

----------


## Fezz

Well alright!

Lookey here!

I see we got ourselves some Real Deals! 

That is what I am talking about! These folks are already stepping up, not aside!

I DIG it!

----------


## Fezz

Sidenote:

I know that there are many in this business that do not sign on and participate on Optiboard, but who follow the happenings on here. It would be nice if you stepped up and contributed to the conversation and momentum. Or, remain silent and start to quiver knowing that your STATUS QUO is no longer acceptable.

----------


## kcount

Some of us talk the talk and walk the walk.

----------


## YrahG

We are only as strong as our weakest link.  If any new organization were to include grandfathered in opticians I would highly recommend a grace period in which they must themselves meet the current standards.  Give a realistic time line to meet these goals and move forward, does that mean they have to stop practicing?  I don't think so not yet anyway, but I think that there should be a separation between the current optician and the optician of the future.  In the early part of the 20th century opticians saw this and there was a divide among the profession, history has shown us that the model we are all trying to adopt where we give the weakest of our profession the same designation as the strongest will not work.  Evidence in this thread seems to indicate that everyone is willing to listen as long as their particular scenario is accounted for.  How does any new organization convince other professions even this profession that it's worth the paper the charter is written on?  My guess at this would be to only include the creme de la creme of opticians.

----------


## kcount

> We are only as strong as our weakest link.  If any new organization were to include grandfathered in opticians I would highly recommend a grace period in which they must themselves meet the current standards.  Give a realistic time line to meet these goals and move forward, does that mean they have to stop practicing?  I don't think so not yet anyway, but I think that there should be a separation between the current optician and the optician of the future.  In the early part of the 20th century opticians saw this and there was a divide among the profession, history has shown us that the model we are all trying to adopt where we give the weakest of our profession the same designation as the strongest will not work.  Evidence in this thread seems to indicate that everyone is willing to listen as long as their particular scenario is accounted for.  How does any new organization convince other professions even this profession that it's worth the paper the charter is written on?  My guess at this would be to only include the creme de la creme of opticians.


So your in?

----------


## wmcdonald

This is wonderful stuff, and I really appreciate the people stepping up, but I want to warn you. It will not be a short-term thing, but you can play a major role in doing some awfully good work. If we can muster enough support we can clearly make for some exciting and long-awaited change to take place. I am sure Dr. Ferguson will also come!

We can meet in late May or early June, and see what happens. If Fezz will collect all those who contact him and let us know, I will be glad (if you want to meet here) to arrange hotel rates at our university rate, which is not expensive at all. I can arrange a free meeting place at the university. I am off to ROATx very early tomorrow, and will returen Sunday, so I will be out of the loop. Fezz knows how to reach me if needed, however. 

On a VERY positive note: New Hampshire has a licensing bill in the hopper, and I was notified today that it has passed the state Senate. Off now to the House. Keep them in your prayers. This is BIG for us all, and I hope they are successful.

----------


## Wes

Awaiting date and location...

----------


## Mr. Finney

> Sidenote:
> 
> I know that there are many in this business that do not sign on and participate on Optiboard, but who follow the happenings on here. It would be nice if you stepped up and contributed to the conversation and momentum. Or, remain silent and start to quiver knowing that your STATUS QUO is no longer acceptable.


I am quivering, but PM sent!

----------


## YrahG

> So your in?


Be careful what you ask for, yes I will be there and I will not only assume you will be there but will expect that you will.  I look forward to meeting you all.

----------


## Jana Lewis

If we have areal bonofide movement here count me in!

----------


## Judy Canty

Me as well.

----------


## FVCCHRIS

OK, how about Opticians like myself? ABOC and in the business for almost 30 years- Who's family has lost everything they had in the last 3 years. Barely enough money to put food on the table but who want to be a part of anything that will benefit our profession. I can't buy enough gas to get out of the county(or win an Ebay auction), much less a ticket back east for "The Unifying Event" of the century. does that mean I'm "out".  :cry:    BTW, this thread sounds alot like the current healthcare debate. How are we gonna lobby for our cause?

----------


## braheem24

someone will pick u up chris, just pm us your gps coordinates :)

----------


## rbaker

You might want to consider something like gotomeeting.com. One month is $100.00 for 100 people. If it works out well buy a 1 year subscription. Another idea might be to just start a web site for just this purpose. Restrict membership to those who have common goal of advancing the craft and are ready and willing to contribute time and money to that end.

----------


## Johns

I'm in.  (Put me down for fund-raising ...)

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

At this point I’ll stick my foot back in the bear trap.  In my opinion, an opticianry program should be at least an AAS and in the future increased to a BS or beyond.  The reality is that this level of education is difficult, if not impossible, to implement in most states.  My suggestion would be to begin with the following certificate program that could be taught in most community colleges with little or no startup cost.  

*1st Semester*
Optics I
Ophthalmic Finishing and Surfacing I
Anatomy and Physiology of the Eye
*2nd Semester* 
Optics II
Ophthalmic Finishing and Surfacing II
Ophthalmic Dispensing I
*3rd Semester* 
Ophthalmic Dispensing II
 Introduction to Contact Lenses
Opticianry Sales and Business Management 

*TOTAL SEMESTER HOURS                   27       * 

This program would be for individuals working in the field since it would require access to equipment at work.  Most community colleges have a general degree available and these hours could be used to complete such a program.

We created this certificate program in the National Federation of Opticianry Schools as a distance learning model for current schools and for use in states with no opticianry program in place.  The hope was that once this was in place sufficient interest could be generated to open a full two-year program.

Thoughts?

Roy

----------


## Jacqui

I like Dr. Ferguson's idea. :D This is pretty much what I was talking about when I said education + apprenticeship + testing = license.

----------


## Uilleann

> OK, how about Opticians like myself? ABOC and in the business for almost 30 years- Who's family has lost everything they had in the last 3 years. Barely enough money to put food on the table but who want to be a part of anything that will benefit our profession. I can't buy enough gas to get out of the county(or win an Ebay auction), much less a ticket back east for "The Unifying Event" of the century. does that mean I'm "out".    BTW, this thread sounds alot like the current healthcare debate. How are we gonna lobby for our cause?


Chris, I'm not _*that*_ far away from you, and I LOVE to vacation in Port Orford and Gold Beach...perhaps I can swing a road trip up to your neck of the woods?  Anyone else in the Oregon No. Cali areas care to join us for a bit of a regional meet??  If this is put together, we should try for something soon, and then myself, or another in attendance can take the ideas generated on to the east coast gathering.

What say ye?  :)

Brian~

P.S.  Fezz - GREAT talking with you last night!  I'll be staying in touch.

----------


## kcount

> Be careful what you ask for, yes I will be there and I will not only assume you will be there but will expect that you will. I look forward to meeting you all.


I believe my name is righht under Brother Fezz for attendee's

----------


## Uilleann

There was a mention of setting up something like a FB page for general info, location, dates and times etc.  A general means to spread the consensus of information as it continues to evolve.  It might be easier than trying to wade through pages and pages of posts here.  

Probably also something Steve may want to think about turning into a sticky?

All the best friends!

Brian~

----------


## kcount

> At this point Ill stick my foot back in the bear trap. In my opinion, an opticianry program should be at least an AAS and in the future increased to a BS or beyond. The reality is that this level of education is difficult, if not impossible, to implement in most states. My suggestion would be to begin with the following certificate program that could be taught in most community colleges with little or no startup cost. 
> 
> *1st Semester*
> Optics I
> Ophthalmic Finishing and Surfacing I
> Anatomy and Physiology of the Eye
> *2nd Semester* 
> Optics II
> Ophthalmic Finishing and Surfacing II
> ...


 
Dr. Ferguson this sounds like a great concept. How far did you get on the original concept as far as fleshing it out? Is this something that could be taught via Video Pod casts or the like? My thinking is self study with proctored exams at the persons local community college. How does one apply this to college credit later? I will happily volunteer my time to record the teaching pod casts.

----------


## Uilleann

And I can add a bitc*in bagpipe musical score to the whole thing...that's sure to motivate the learning centers of the brain!  ;)  hehehe  (really!)

----------


## Jacqui

> Chris, I'm not _*that*_ far away from you, and I LOVE to vacation in Port Orford and Gold Beach...perhaps I can swing a road trip up to your neck of the woods?  Anyone else in the Oregon No. Cali areas care to join us for a bit of a regional meet??  If this is put together, we should try for something soon, and then myself, or another in attendance can take the ideas generated on to the east coast gathering.
> 
> What say ye?  :)
> 
> Brian~
> 
> P.S.  Fezz - GREAT talking with you last night!  I'll be staying in touch.


I'm thinking about something like this in the Upper Midwest. Possibly Minneapolis, could cover Minnesota, Dakotas, Iowa, Wisconsin, and parts of Nebraska and Illinois.

----------


## kcount

OK, so this is all very exciting and one has to imagine this how it felt for Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and the other Founding Fathers all those many hundreds of years ago.

But, before we get our heads full of steam lets realize what we are doing. Like those before us we are walking into a war. The organizations that are in place will not want this and will push back against our cause, though it be just. This is going to take time and many meetings, conference calls, emails, and conferences. Not to mention leg work on the part of us all. We are going to have to sell this idea and concept to everyone we can. 

This is a Revolution.

This being said I believe we are all able and ready for the challenge ahead. Its going to be a slog to the end my friends but we will come out victorious. 

Lets get some dates going, I'm thinking Last week of May 28-30th. Dr. McDonald mentioned he could get hosting at his university so we should probably take him up on that. This will probably be a group of 20-25 people and we all have definite concepts of what the future should hold, so be ready for some lively debate.
Ultimately this will probably be something akin to the UN-expo but on steroids, think Mega UN-expo/Constitutional Convention. Let's hope the attrition rate wont be as great and there will be greater turn out.

We need to start focusing on what will be the topics of discussion, saying 'the future of Opticianry' is going to cut it. 
What is an optician?
What is that person after the revolution? 
What are we looking for specifically?
What are we going to be needing/wanting as a profession going forward?
What about the OAA and the ABO? How are we going to handle them?

These are just sample question, as time goes forward there will be many more. 

Welcome to the Revolution my friends.

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> Dr. Ferguson this sounds like a great concept. How far did you get on the original concept as far as fleshing it out? Is this something that could be taught via Video Pod casts or the like? My thinking is self study with proctored exams at the persons local community college. How does one apply this to college credit later? I will happily volunteer my time to record the teaching pod casts.


The courses are canned and ready to go.  My suggestion would be to present the concept to community colleges until one was located that would incorporate these hours into an existing AAS.  Many colleges have a general technology degree or something similar that might work.   This would be a win-win for the college as well as opticianry.  The hours could be taught by adjunct faculty on an as needed basis.

I would discourage presenting the courses in hopes they would be retroactively approved for credit.  It would work better if the college reviewed and approved the courses prior to presentation.  

Roy

----------


## Jacqui

Strange thought !! (even for me) Mary Sue Hopper (check the members list) told me about an INTERNATIONAL meeting to discuss licensing. Maybe someone should contact her about it and this. I think it was going to be in Toronto.

----------


## kcount

> Strange thought !! (even for me) Mary Sue Hopper (check the members list) told me about an INTERNATIONAL meeting to discuss licensing. Maybe someone should contact her about it and this. I think it was going to be in Toronto.


Message sent

----------


## Wes

As far as colleges go, Thomas Edison has been accepting the military's optical training for years,and along with a few general courses, turning it into an AAS in applied health studies. Maybe they could look at this. Roy?

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> As far as colleges go, Thomas Edison has been accepting the military's optical training for years,and along with a few general courses, turning it into an AAS in applied health studies. Maybe they could look at this. Roy?


My suggestion would be to teach the certificate program in colleges where an opticianry program could later be opened.  That is why I would suggest that each state opticianry association develop a relationship with local institutions.  Once we can prove the concept will work for the certificate program, the college may be more amenable to investing in the opticianry AAS.  That’s just my thoughts.  What do others think?

Roy

----------


## Uilleann

So.

Here we are.

I believe it's time to take this off the boards and get a bit organized  here.  A website?  Social networking? Addiction support groups???  :)

It would be nice to have a single coherent location (web presence) for information as  it pertains to goals and agenda, mission statement, education, state organizations, individuals, possible issues to  be considering as they pertain to us now, and the future of opticianry in the US.

I know I wouldn't have the time to set up and maintain a site such as this to an adequate level, but perhaps there are others here who could...and more importantly would be willing to take it on?  I wouldn't think it would need to be huge and fancy - just a single place to get 'the final word' as we get ourselves organized across the country.

Anyone?  Bueller?

----------


## Wes

Florence-Darlington Tech  http://www.fdtc.edu/  here in SC had a certificate in opticianry program that they closed down a couple years ago due to lack of interest, and that is in a licensed state.  The State Board was accepting the certificate as well.  Honestly, it doesn't speak well for SC opticians.  Fezz is right, most people can't see past their own nose and wallet.  
I'm really just a lab guy that dispenses part time to make a few extra bucks.  When I decided to get certified, I decided to go for broke.  Why not?  I love a challenge.  It seems that isnt the case for most.  I recently received the ABO's "master list" of 385 ABOM's and can you guess how many bothered to get the NCLE-AC?  Eleven.  Most of them post on this board; Warren, Diane, Tmorse, myself, etc...  I'd love for this profession to become something.  When I see opticianry programs in licensing states shut down for lack of interest, and ABOM's who won't bother to challenge themselves, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzy...  
It seems these higher certifications are considered worthless to just about everyone, certificant excluded.  That was the general consensus at the un-expo, and I feel I must agree.  One of the brightest of us has been sitting on what is probably a Muth winner, because what's the point?  
We talk about this over and over but the bottom line is, opticians don't see themselves as healthcare professionals.  For most of them, it's a JOB.  They stare off into space at CE classes.  They do the minimum.  I'm often ashamed to count myself among them. I much prefer to associate with those more knowledgable than myself.  Now, a group like johns, fezz, harry c, warren, diane d, roy, kevin, etc; that's a group I'd be proud to count myself a part of, if even the least part.

----------


## wmcdonald

But we are getting ready to change that Wes! I just got the the Sheraton in Arlingtin Texas. ROATx meeting begins shortly. If anyone is close, come on down. I will be back and more active on Monday, but letme just say that Dr. Ferguson has a great plan, and one we have discussed. Don't get the cart too far aheadm however. We need to kick it around a bit in a group and then see where we need to go. It will be a great journey.

----------


## kcount

> Florence-Darlington Tech http://www.fdtc.edu/ here in SC had a certificate in opticianry program that they closed down a couple years ago due to lack of interest, and that is in a licensed state. The State Board was accepting the certificate as well. Honestly, it doesn't speak well for SC opticians. Fezz is right, most people can't see past their own nose and wallet. 
> I'm really just a lab guy that dispenses part time to make a few extra bucks. When I decided to get certified, I decided to go for broke. Why not? I love a challenge. It seems that isnt the case for most. I recently received the ABO's "master list" of 385 ABOM's and can you guess how many bothered to get the NCLE-AC? Eleven. Most of them post on this board; Warren, Diane, Tmorse, myself, etc... I'd love for this profession to become something. When I see opticianry programs in licensing states shut down for lack of interest, and ABOM's who won't bother to challenge themselves, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzy... 
> It seems these higher certifications are considered worthless to just about everyone, certificant excluded. That was the general consensus at the un-expo, and I feel I must agree. One of the brightest of us has been sitting on what is probably a Muth winner, because what's the point? 
> We talk about this over and over but the bottom line is, opticians don't see themselves as healthcare professionals. For most of them, it's a JOB. They stare off into space at CE classes. They do the minimum. I'm often ashamed to count myself among them. I much prefer to associate with those more knowledgable than myself. Now, a group like johns, fezz, harry c, warren, diane d, roy, kevin, etc; that's a group I'd be proud to count myself a part of, if even the least part.


Your not 'Just a Lab guy" your are one of an elite group of dedicated individuals. A group of maybe a dozen individuals that holds themselves to a higher measure. It's the same analogy I used before. You think Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Washington, etc. were popular for their ideals and actions? They were in the minority. the status quo is what the masses wanted. Its what the masses want now, they like complaining but only the select few are willing to act.

There's a book I would suggest called "The War of Art" by Steven Pressfield. In it Mr. Pressfield speaks about something he reffers to 'resistance' in essence it is the voice in your head that tells you why something wont work. This inner voice is amazingly rational and knows exactly what to whisper to make you stop your quest towards something you desire, be it professional, artistic, life, whatever. The Resistance is what holds us back and its arguments become stronger the closer you get to the thing you desire most.  It kept me from going out on my own for 10 years and it holds Opticianry back from excelling.  If life has points and touches that are pivital this book is one of them for me. Wess if you cant find it, I'll send you mine.

----------


## Uilleann

Wes, you've nailed it.  Sadly.

Again, I'm afraid it simply comes down to money.  What can that certification do for _me_?  Now in the case of many licenced health care professionals, it can do a lot.  Because the government says it needs to.  It's backed up by a national (in many, even most cases?) licensure / educational requirement, with an added practical proficiency required.  Chicken and egg as was pointed out earlier here.

We can't hope to have colleges/universities offer a course that no one is motivated to take.  And let's face it, at the end of the day, they're not there to "better the world through education".  They exist to make a buck.  And for any of us in the work force, that is also likely true.  All the diplomas, degrees, certificates and licenses in the world are certainly great for one's own professional, intellectual and educational ego.  It really does feel great to learn so much!  But in the end, if you can gain nothing from them than having some extra fancy wallpaper, it just won't appeal to the masses.

It's a very strange double ended sword.  On the one hand, big business and their lobby against being forced to pay much higher wages for their "frame stylists".  On the other, no matter how well intentioned the cause may be, if it doesn't guarantee a quantifiable increase in the amount of bread being won for opticians today, right now, many will be lethargic at best to support the movement.  Or worse, only provide lip service in 'support' of the cause, then disappear into the tried and true woodwork.

We've seen that happen before.

So in getting organized, how best do we mitigate the damage from both of those entities?

----------


## kcount

http://sites.google.com/site/megaunexpo/

it aint much but its a start. AS we go along I'll start adding people and the ability to add posts.

----------


## Uilleann

Thanks K,

I've done a bit of web design and admin in the past years - just have a dearth of time to commit to the online presence right now.  But please count on me as needed and I will step up and do everything I can to assist.   If I can help with the site, info etc. I'll do all I can.  Shall I PM with contact info?

Bri~

----------


## kcount

> Thanks K,
> 
> I've done a bit of web design and admin in the past years - just have a dearth of time to commit to the online presence right now. But please count on me as needed and I will step up and do everything I can to assist. If I can help with the site, info etc. I'll do all I can. Shall I PM with contact info?
> 
> Bri~


That works for me.

Who ever else would like to contribute, PM me the contact info and I'll get it set up.

----------


## Uilleann

On it's way Mate.  Thanks for the work in setting up a presence.  PM on it's way.

By the way, our own Pete wrote a really great bit on the importance of education in another thread not long ago.  While the subject was different from this, the main thrust is almost exactly the same (at least as it seems to me).  A *VERY* good read.  I'd love to see more of Pete's input here as well!  wink wink, nudge nudge  ;)

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...l=1#post328778

----------


## rbaker

> We can't hope to have colleges/universities offer a course that no one is motivated to take.  And let's face it, at the end of the day, they're not there to "better the world through education".  They exist to make a buck.


They may primarily exist to make a buck but I would hope that there is just a tidge of altruism in their existence. There have been three schools in Massachusetts that closed their doors due primarily to low enrollment. WITI, Quinsigamond and Holyoke. There is a program at Ben Franklin that is the sole program in the Commonwealth. I do not believe that tne New England College of Optometry offers any course work.

I wonder if the educators on this board would be so kind as to submit historical enrollment figures. It seems that, in some cases , enrollments tend to decline after a few years. Another problem is that many courses are not transferable to another institution.

----------


## Fezz

It is my hope that RBaker offers to transport all of us who are trying to make a difference around in his plane!

Come on R-, you know that you want to!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

----------


## Uilleann

> They may primarily exist to make a buck but I would hope that there is just a tidge of altruism in their existence. There have been three schools in Massachusetts that closed their doors due primarily to low enrollment. WITI, Quinsigamond and Holyoke. There is a program at Ben Franklin that is the sole program in the Commonwealth. I do not believe that tne New England College of Optometry offers any course work.
> 
> I wonder if the educators on this board would be so kind as to submit historical enrollment figures. It seems that, in some cases , enrollments tend to decline after a few years. Another problem is that many courses are not transferable to another institution.


I would like to think they exist for that as well Dick - but the sad reality seems to point to a different motivator.  And as you point out, even more than a lack of money, a lack of warm bodies in the seats will kill any educational facility quicker than quick.  And at the end of the day, even with the most altruistic intentions...they just don't pay the bills.

For that matter, I would love to personally fly each and every optician out from my state, to attend this first gathering, get fired up, motivated, and active in working towards real change in our profession.  But clearly, that's not even in the same universe as realistic.  :)

Having been in education (as well as optics) for many years, I can tell you there are so many educators who most certainly are NOT doing their job for the money.  They do it for the love of knowledge both gained and given.  But to be realistic, they also have to make enough to survive.  And even schools with the best of direction, still have to turn a profit to remain viable.  I would highly doubt that any learning institution in our current US economy would want to take on a new course of study offering without a means to make it self sustaining.  Perhaps I'm wrong??

I sincerely appreciate your input in this regard.  Thanks Dick for all you do here!

Bri~

----------


## DC Optix

Count me in...one more SC Boy for the cause!

----------


## Uilleann

So do we have a hard date yet?

----------


## wmcdonald

I just returned from Texas, and will have a date very soon.

----------


## chromatic

Hi guys, just about to start training with optics so if anyone needs a hand visit me at www.fbdo.co.uk 
cheers

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## Fezz

The March issue of Vision Care Product News has an article or an editorial written by Ed DeGannaro that discusses this threads topic.

http://www.totallyoptical.com/ME2/Au...E10DE3DCF0D05B

Thoughts, opinions, jabs?

----------


## Diane

As we observe the numbers of people wanting FREE study materials and FREE CE's, I can only wonder why we can't advance ourselves.  I don't like to jump into subjects that I will be hammered.  However, I am jumping into this subject.  Things were different years ago.  There weren't the formal programs available that we have today, and I, like a lot of people learned through apprenticeship.  As has been mentioned, learning through apprenticeship is only as good as those who teach.  If the mentor isn't very well versed in opticianry, then we learn that way.  Fortunately, there have BEEN some good ones, but unfortunately, there have also been some who were seriously lacking.  Today, apprenticeship is NOT the way I would go...there's too much technology out there and just to keep up is almost a full time job.  Some of us have worked very hard, trying to make this a better profession, but there are others that just want a free ride.  Until we, as a total body of Opticians, want to better ourselves, it won't happen.  

I think of people who came before me who worked to make a difference at the level they were at then and thank them.  Their names are too numerous to mention right now.  If it weren't for the sacrifices that they made, I wouldn't be where I am today.  Warren is not threatening folks who have achieved advancement levels from the past.  He is wanting to see the future better for all of us... and that will come at a price.  Time and monetary investment.  I want to make a difference in our future.  I am not ready to retire, however, I have been around a long time, and perhaps am coming close to the end of my game.  

I look at a lot of you young people today, and see the passion for our profession that we had, and that makes me proud.  Then I see others who don't have the passion and it saddens me, tremendously.  Hooorah for those with the passion.  I applaude you.  I will encourage you to embrace the future and invest in it wisely.  That means support our profession, and educate yourselves.  PAY it forward...

:)
Diane

----------


## Wes

> The March issue of Vision Care Product News has an article or an editorial written by Ed DeGannaro that discusses this threads topic.
> 
> http://www.totallyoptical.com/ME2/Au...E10DE3DCF0D05B
> 
> Thoughts, opinions, jabs?


Fezz, sounds like he's voicing the same concerns we have been here. What amazes me is that Canada has had for years what we're looking to create here in the US, and BC just tossed most of it away. Yay for opticians being able to refract, but the rest of that mess? What are they thinking?

Oh, and thank YOU, Diane, for your leadership, your writing, and for being one of the best speakers I've seen.

----------


## YrahG

> The March issue of Vision Care Product News has an article or an editorial written by Ed DeGannaro that discusses this threads topic.
> 
> http://www.totallyoptical.com/ME2/Au...E10DE3DCF0D05B
> 
> Thoughts, opinions, jabs?


Interesting article, I don't know if this is true or not but I have noticed that many articles come from topics that are discussed here, I have also noticed that some articles will have significant ideas taken from others here on this board without proper citation or credit.  Just another way in which e cannibalize our own.  Quite frankly there are times i have kept my thoughts, opinions, and ideas to myself because I get a feeling that this board has a number of thieves trolling it.

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## Fezz

> Interesting article, I don't know if this is true or not but I have noticed that many articles come from topics that are discussed here, I have also noticed that some articles will have significant ideas taken from others here on this board without proper citation or credit.  Just another way in which e cannibalize our own.  Quite frankly there are times i have kept my thoughts, opinions, and ideas to myself because I get a feeling that this board has a number of thieves trolling it.



I am glad that I am not the only one with this opinion!
:cheers::cheers::cheers:

----------


## kcount

> I am glad that I am not the only one with this opinion!
> :cheers::cheers::cheers:


isn't it interesting how good ole' Ed came up with this idea out of the blue?

----------


## Jacqui

> Interesting article, I don't know if this is true or not but I have noticed that many articles come from topics that are discussed here, I have also noticed that some articles will have significant ideas taken from others here on this board without proper citation or credit.  Just another way in which e cannibalize our own.  Quite frankly there are times i have kept my thoughts, opinions, and ideas to myself because I get a feeling that this board has a number of thieves trolling it.


I do that myself.

----------


## YrahG

> I do that myself.


Keep your ideas to yourself or steal someones ideas and pass them off as your own?

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## Diane

Just FYI, information that is available in press, such as VCPN is written and ready to go to months in advance.  Occassionally, there would be some hot topic that may need to be presented hot off the press, but then that is done through e-mail blasts.  

I've personally known Ed for a long time, and he has contributed a lot to our industry, that a lot of you here, probably will never know.  

I don't think Warren started this thread to slam individuals who contribute to our profession in any capacity...(Warren, I don't want to be speaking for you...:)).  What we need here is positive action, not hijacking the thread.  Let's get back on track.  Some of you boys and girls...this is your Mama speaking to you...remember your manners.:)

Diane

----------


## Uilleann

Oooohhhhhkaaaaayyyyyyyy.....

Steering this bus back onto the road for a tick,

We're in need of a few defining items to effectively move forward.

Date: In the works, and as I understand it, we're hoping for something on or before the first of June correct Warren?

Location: South Carolina?

Duration: How long can we realistically tear away?  For my own part, I know that a weekend is a realistic limit - with two half days of air travel included in there as well.

Subject: All Future Education and National Licensure standards ("certification" seems moot?) and requirements for dispensing opticians in the United States.

Organization: We've got to get organized or this whole little party will count for nothing.  We've got a web presence started on our behalf, but it needs content.  We've got a few emails and phone calls going among several of us here, but we need to get locals organized around us in our respective locales.  What is the most effective means of accomplishing this feat?

In the end, as nice as it would be to know that the whole of opticianry were behind this push, the sad reality is that if change is to happen, it will be done on the backs of a few tens - perhaps hundreds...but no more nation wide.  The burden of all with be born by a very small few.  I believe it will serve all of us well to think on ways and means we can support those with the drive and skill to see this through to fruition.

Thoughts?

----------


## wmcdonald

You are correct. It will be borne on the shoulders of a few, but the key is to develop the concept and prove its value, and all will jump on. It will take time, but for once, this discussion may just lead to some positive discussion. 

I am waiting now to find an appropriate date and will notify the board as soon as I can shore up the meeting space. I will be using university facilities here in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and will make sure all can get here. We hope the last weekend in May will be the time. If all can make it on Friday we will meet on Saturday and SUnday morning. I will make arrangements for those who wish to come to have transportation from the airport here in Fayetteville. Saturday evening I will also plan an event for us to relax a bit.

More to follow.

----------


## Uilleann

I nominate Fezz to be poobah of all things party on Sat night.  I'm bringing my toga anyway - just in case.  :)

That sounds great Warren.  Thanks VERY much for all the work in helping us to get this crazy lead balloon off the ground!

----------


## Johns

It figures...I've got a HUGE family, and there are 17 graduations this spring.  3 of them the last weekend of May.  On the other hand, I could save quite a bit of dough by skipping the grads and going to SC.  I'll try to make SC either way.

----------


## YrahG

> Just FYI, information that is available in press, such as VCPN is written and ready to go to months in advance.  Occassionally, there would be some hot topic that may need to be presented hot off the press, but then that is done through e-mail blasts.  
> 
> I've personally known Ed for a long time, and he has contributed a lot to our industry, that a lot of you here, probably will never know.  
> 
> I don't think Warren started this thread to slam individuals who contribute to our profession in any capacity...(Warren, I don't want to be speaking for you...:)).  What we need here is positive action, not hijacking the thread.  Let's get back on track.  Some of you boys and girls...this is your Mama speaking to you...remember your manners.:)
> 
> Diane


I don't know if this applied to Ed in particular so I apologize if it came off that way, but I have seen writers that contribute to this board take ideas away and pass them off as their own.  I respect those that cite their sources or others, I don't respect those that choose to pass off others ideas as their own.  Take it for what it's worth, I am sure Ed won't lose any sleep if it doesn't apply.

Once again I will be there just post the time, date, and location.

----------


## Fezz

I find it rather sad that we have not sparked any more interest in this than a handful of dedicated Optiboarders. I am sure that this entire thread has been read by a huge number of folks who don't have the Gusto to step up or the bravado to chime in!

Shame on you!

This is a prime example if the sickining APATHY that has a stranglehold on our profession!

----------


## YrahG

> I find it rather sad that we have not sparked any more interest in this than a handful of dedicated Optiboarders. I am sure that this entire thread has been read by a huge number of folks who don't have the Gusto to step up or the bravado to chime in!
> 
> Shame on you!
> 
> This is a prime example if the sickining APATHY that has a stranglehold on our profession!


The way I see it this should be a group of the creme de la creme, by definition it should only be a dedicated few.  Those few should represent a new organization with pride and let those that ask them know that it is an invitation only organizations and they could submit themselves for consideration but it's not money that buys you in or a simple test.  The path should be rigorous enough that only a select few should be able to even qualify.  It this fraternity of higher opticians can separate themselves from the flock of lost opticians then this could be a win.  That's just the way I envision it, but I look forward to haring more ideas with all when we meet.

----------


## rbaker

> I find it rather sad that we have not sparked any more interest in this than a handful of dedicated Optiboarders. I am sure that this entire thread has been read by a huge number of folks who don't have the Gusto to step up or the bravado to chime in!
> 
> Shame on you!
> 
> This is a prime example if the sickining APATHY that has a stranglehold on our profession!


This is a universal axiom; not shame, not apathy; its just the 10% rule kicking in. Ten percent of the masses do ninety percent of the work just like taxes. Ten percent pay ninty percent.

I will try to make it if possible. As a skeptic and not having a dog in this fight it should be good for at least a few laughs.

----------


## Fezz

> This is a universal axiom; not shame, not apathy; its just the 10% rule kicking in. Ten percent of the masses do ninety percent of the work just like taxes. Ten percent pay ninty percent.
> 
> I will try to make it if possible. As a skeptic and not having a dog in this fight it should be good for at least a few laughs.


Can I offer to pay your way?
:cheers:

----------


## rbaker

> Can I offer to pay your way?
> :cheers:


 
Thanks for the offer but in lieu of payment to me you could make a contribution to the Shriner's Hospital in your locale. 

http://www.shrinershq.org/

----------


## wmcdonald

> I find it rather sad that we have not sparked any more interest in this than a handful of dedicated Optiboarders. I am sure that this entire thread has been read by a huge number of folks who don't have the Gusto to step up or the bravado to chime in!
> 
> Shame on you!
> 
> This is a prime example if the sickining APATHY that has a stranglehold on our profession!


Fezz.......after many years of fighting this battle, I am pleased we have this many. We will not start developing any crownds until we prodice something tangible. My reserach indicates that there is a desire for improvement, and if we get a ball rolling, it will eventually start moving downhill. 

We will meet at this summit and see what transpires. I will present some research and hope we can have a solid discussion on the future.

----------


## Jacqui

As I said elsewhere, I probably won't be able to be there, but please keep me informed. I am working on state licensing in Minnesota.

----------


## Jana Lewis

I'd really like to try and make this one, barring any family illness I should be able to go. I still have a ticket. :)

----------


## Uilleann

Yikes!  Looking at airfare, (cheaper to fly into Raleigh than Fayetteville, but neither are super affordable...) I may be forced to network in if possible.  I will happily spend a weekend in front of a computer via gotomeeting or similar.  Hell, I'll spring for the entire cost if it's only $100.00.  Airfare alone for me is looking to run in the $300-$400 range at best and going up as time gets shorter.  Assuming I *can* make the flight, anyone want to rescue me from Raleigh?  Is there a piece of carpet on someone's floor I could call home for a night as well?  I've still got to get the final clear from the fiance as well of course, what with a wedding, and now a move in the very very near future as well.  (Fezz, you good to come to northern Maryland for some nuptuals my friend?)  :)

Anyway, just thinking out loud.  If there is any realistic means for me to attend in person, I will BE there.  If not, I will find a way to attend virtually - even Skype maybe?  They offer a video conferencing option correct?  Come to think of it, this could be a very good way for a much larger number of us to be involved across the nation with minimal to no cost to them.  Come on folks!  We have to be the change we so desperately need to see - and we need to be that change NOW!

----------


## Fezz

> (Fezz, you good to come to northern Maryland for some nuptuals my friend?) :)


Although I am humbled by your admiration and devotion to me, I must decline! See, I don't play on that *Team*. I am trying to let you down softly. Trying not to break your heart. Have you tried Craigslist, Match, or Hookups?


:p:cheers::cheers::cheers:;)

----------


## Uilleann

My poor confused friend - I'm not offering to marry YOU.  My toast is also strictly butter side up...plus Gwen is far cuter than you.  Although, you still take the better brewer award for sure.  :)  At any rate, you're invited.

Looking forward to meeting as many here as possible in the very near future!

----------


## pezfaerie

It is so awesome to see this group of pioneers come together to better our future, our profession. There is a meeting here in California in May where I hope to be able to show this rather “good ol’” group that there are still Opticians out there who care to make a difference and hopefully persuade them to join the revolution. Thank you to all of you who are blazing a trail for us!

----------


## Johns

If this is on a date that I can make, I'll be driving, and can pick up anyone in Ohio, WV, Va, and/or NC that are on the way.  The more the merrier.
 





(Although Glen Beck put Mountainheart to sleep on the way back from UnExpo, I'm sure the rest of you can handle it!)

----------


## YrahG

> (Although Glen Beck put Mountainheart to sleep on the way back from UnExpo, I'm sure the rest of you can handle it!)


Glen Beck, you say.  I dub the ride the opti-torture.  Short of waterboarding it looks like you have the makings of a true terrorist busting van, maybe we could use your ride to convince our adversaries to reconsider their position.

----------


## YrahG

If I can suggest a point, their will be adversaries so a web presence with plans put out in the open might not be the prudent course of action.  I weould suggest that any ideas be rough and general when discussed here and timelines, goals, etc. be kept confidential and discussed in private meetings such as the SC meeting to ensure we don't coem out of the gate with opposition that is well informed.  If anything is to be discussed in public a bit of obfuscation should be in order.  Try calling any organizatin you belong to and getting minutes to board meetings, it's next to impossible.

----------


## Wes

Point of clarification: the meeting is being planned for Fayetteville North Carolina

----------


## Uilleann

LOL YrahG!  I almost snorted coffee over the Beck comment!  Truly funny!  :)

I also agree about keeping things under our collective hat for now - but I do think that a common place for those of us interested in working this problem be set up.  A secure login required or what have you.  Something we can, as a collective group, use to disseminate important information, ideas, and developments.  That shouldn't be too hard to implement would you expect?

Bri~

----------


## MarySue

I've attached the IOA programme.  If anyone is seriously wanting to start a world wide movement for standardisation of education and skills - the IOA would be a good place to start.

I'm hoping to attend, but coming from NZ it costs a bit more to get there.  

http://www.vision-canada.ca/ The programme is available in .pdf format, and I am unable to attach it to this post.  If you would like a copy, email me at marysue@hopperconsultants.co.nz

 :Cool:

----------


## kcount

In looking at the calender I'm noticing we are talking about Memorial Day weekend. any chance of putting this on the first week in June? June 4-6. This may cause less friction with everyones better halves.

I know Johns is available that weekend how about everyone else?

----------


## Uilleann

UOA (Utah Opto. Assoc.) is that weekend, so I wouldn't be able to attend (in person or via web meeting etc).  The second weekend in June (12-13) is also booked already for me.  Memorial day is a bit tough.  Any chance of shifting things mid to late June?

----------


## wmcdonald

I will be pleased to shift to late June. What say all to the last week of June 2010?

----------


## Fezz

> I will be pleased to shift to late June. What say all to the last week of June 2010?


Fine!

----------


## Uilleann

June 26-27 I assume?  Is a weekend meet the best for all?  Is one day any better?  How much time will we need?  Personally, that weekend is a better fit with my own schedule, but I know I'm not the only spoon in this bowl of soup.  (very probably the prettiest - but not the only one!)  hehehe

Can we sticky this thread - or create a new one that can be stickied (is that a real word??) for reference here?

----------


## Johns

I'm in for June....

----------


## wmcdonald

Folks,
The Southeastern Opticians Conference is in Atlanta in June (23-25). I just spoke with one of the primary leaders of that group, who has invited our summit to meet with them. This may provide us with a bigger opportunity and an earier place to get into. What say the group?

Warren

----------


## Laurie

Hi Warren,

To repeat many posts here, THANK YOU for your dedication...I believe you have what it takes (along with Roy) to lead this charge.

Meeting during SEOC is a great idea, count me in.

: )

Laurie

----------


## Uilleann

Atlanta would be far easier for me to make (particularly with both Atlanta and Salt Lake being major Delta Hubs) - unfortunately, I can't make anything mid week, and the SEOC looks to be a Wed-Fri venture.  Any chance I can call in or something in the evenings?  I just wish the logistics of getting all of us in a room at the same time weren't so tough.  Warren, again, thanks for the work in trying to make it happen!

----------


## Laurie

It will likely be during the weekend.

The 2010 schedule is not up yet,

: )

----------


## wmcdonald

> Atlanta would be far easier for me to make (particularly with both Atlanta and Salt Lake being major Delta Hubs) - unfortunately, I can't make anything mid week, and the SEOC looks to be a Wed-Fri venture. Any chance I can call in or something in the evenings? I just wish the logistics of getting all of us in a room at the same time weren't so tough. Warren, again, thanks for the work in trying to make it happen!


I know of no optical conferences in mid-week. SEOC is always on a weekend. July 23, 24, 25 is the 4th weekend of the month.

----------


## Mr. Finney

The 2010 SEOC is *July* 23-25, not June, just to clarify.  Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

----------


## Uilleann

Cool!  Two days after my birthday...but also falling right ON the fiancé's B-day.  I might not live to tell the tale if I leave....but it's So worth it for our fight right?!  :)  I think we can work with the date however.  Pushing it out a little further will help with airfare as well.  I'm looking into flights today for that weekend.

----------


## kcount

> Cool! Two days after my birthday...but also falling right ON the fiancé's B-day. I might not live to tell the tale if I leave....but it's So worth it for our fight right?! :) I think we can work with the date however. Pushing it out a little further will help with airfare as well. I'm looking into flights today for that weekend.


Bring her with, tell her its a mini vacation. atlanta is a very pretty town and you could take her to Stone Mountain for the laser show.

This would actually work for me, plus I can tie in a visit to my mother.. Hey, to birds with one stone, ya gotta love that!

----------


## Fezz

> Folks,
> The Southeastern Opticians Conference is in Atlanta in June (23-25). I just spoke with one of the primary leaders of that group, who has invited our summit to meet with them. This may provide us with a bigger opportunity and an earier place to get into. What say the group?
> 
> Warren


Wouldn't we be dealing with the same old 

Ole Boys Club?

----------


## Uilleann

Fezz - it doesn't matter... HE SAID THERE'D BE LASERS MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FLOYD RULES!!!!!!!!!!!  :)

God I am SO there!!!!

----------


## wmcdonald

> Wouldn't we be dealing with the same old 
> 
> Ole Boys Club?


Not at all. Many of thiem are as frustrated as many of us. I am there any way, and it would be easier to get to.

----------


## wmcdonald

> The 2010 SEOC is *July* 23-25, not June, just to clarify. Friday, Saturday, Sunday.


Thanks for the clarification. I originally posted June, and that was incorrect. July, 23, 24, 25. I sense the group is in favor. I will wait until tomorrow and make sure we have sufficient space.

----------


## kcount

> Wouldn't we be dealing with the same old 
> 
> Ole Boys Club?


Isn't that why your bringing the musket and bowie knife, for the aggressive negotiations?

----------


## Fezz

> Isn't that why your bringing the musket and bowie knife, for the aggressive negotiations?


No need for those accroutrements! My Dim Mak is plenty strong!

----------


## Mr. Finney

> No need for those accroutrements! My Dim Mak is plenty strong!


 Huh?

----------


## wmcdonald

In my original post I indicated the date was in June..........I was thanking you for the clarification.

My original post is as follows:
Folks,
The Southeastern Opticians Conference is in Atlanta in June (23-25). I just spoke with one of the primary leaders of that group, who has invited our summit to meet with them. This may provide us with a bigger opportunity and an earier place to get into. What say the group?

Warren

----------


## Fezz

> Huh?


Exactley!!!!

----------


## Mr. Finney

Sorry Dr. McDonald, I was asking "Huh?" to Fezz, who once again left me going "Huh?" :D

----------


## Johns

Atlanta?  July?  It's all good.  Just tell me what time...

----------


## Uilleann

OK, so in the mean time, I'd like to collect a list of emails and start throwing some initial ideas around off the boards here.  I have some local contacts I'm working on making to try and build momentum up here locally, but would love some input from others as well as I work to build some support here.  I think a private email to those of us who wish to be 'in the loop' is a simple solution for communication for the time being.  If any would care to PM me here with your preferred email addresses, I can keep a list and will send any thoughts as an email to all.

I'd love for others to add their replies, or start new thoughts and new emails etc. as this grows.  Sound like a decent start?  Looking forward to hearing from everyone!

Brian~

----------


## braheem24

*Atlanta July, 23, 24 & 25.* 

I'll be there. 
Do we need running total? 
1. Wmcdonald
2. Johns
3. Uilleann
4. Braheem24
5.
6.
7.

----------


## kcount

> *Atlanta July, 23, 24 & 25.* 
> 
> I'll be there. 
> Do we need running total? 
> 1. Wmcdonald
> 2. Johns
> 3. Braheem24
> 4. Kcount (aka: K-Dog)
> 5.
> ...


Just an update

----------


## braheem24

Sorry for my edit while you were posting, so far... *Atlanta July, 23, 24 & 25.*

1. Wmcdonald
2. Johns
3. Uilleann
4. Kcount (aka: K-Dog)
5. braheem24
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

----------


## Wes

Here's your running total... 

1. Wmcdonald
2. Johns
3. Braheem24
4. uilleann
5. Kcount (aka: K-Dog)
6. wss2020 aka wes
7.

----------


## Jana Lewis

> Sorry for my edit while you were posting, so far... *Atlanta July, 23, 24 & 25.*
> 
> 1. Wmcdonald
> 2. Johns
> 3. Uilleann
> 4. Kcount (aka: K-Dog)
> 5. braheem24
> 6.
> 
> ...


Ummm... hello! Where's my name?? :P 
7.

----------


## GAgal

Would ya'll like GAgal to be there?

----------


## braheem24

*Atlanta July, 23, 24 & 25.*

1. Wmcdonald
2. Johns
3. Braheem24
4. uilleann
5. Kcount (aka: K-Dog)
6. wss2020 aka wes
7. Jana Lewis
8. Gagal
9.

----------


## wmcdonald

Great folks. I am sorry to be so long in finalizing the hotel info, but my dear friend Joe Reed, one of the movers and shakers in the SEOC meeting has had a heart cath and I have not been able to complete the details. Info will follow in a day or so.

----------


## Uilleann

Wha??  No Fezz??  I've only gotten one email address so far, if any and all would care to PM me your contact info, I'm working on a list of sorts that will allow us to stay in touch and disseminate information in a more coherent manner (or so the theory goes.)  Feel free to PM with your info, and I'll add your name to the list I have as well.

Best!

Brian~

----------


## Fezz

I might *TRY* and be there?

----------


## Craig

> For the November 15, 2009 ABO exam in Tennessee, the candidates achieved a 51.52% pass rate. If I'm not mistaken the nationwide pass rate was 52.67. The last practical examination I administered in Tennessee had a 40% pass rate. Comments?
> 
> Roy


I just hired a new employee that has worked in for an MD and Lenscrafters for a total of 12 months; she has an ABO/NCLE and it confirms the fact that the abilty to pass some tests that have no relation to the real world.  She is very nice and has almost no practical knowledge; she can sell but it ends there.

I have no formal optical education and passed the ABO/NCLE by reading the test questions aboutr what we are not supposed to put in peoples.  It made it easy since most of the items mentioned on the NCLE have to do with hard contacts and solutions that are no longer on the market.

We need a national board with some teeth or we need to eliminate the other states that require a bogus license.  I have a bogus license and as an owner of an optical feel that only opticians are harmed by rules no one else must follow but those that created the rules.  No MD or OD could c are less about having an optician to verify the work and ensure the works is a good as possible; this is very evident by the garbage work we see come in everyday from aroung the world. 

Craig

----------


## Wes

I recently had a conv with a licensed optician, several years as a license and several more in this field, who wasn't aware that zeiss sold more than one type of progressive. He was kinda wowed when I showed him the few pages of zeiss lenses in the progressive identifier. Apparently experience and licensure don't necessarily mean much. 
Is a national standard needed?  Absolutely.

----------


## Wes

Oh and how about that really tall optician guy who can never understand why his seg hts are too high?  He never accepts that its him. He just has crazy patients...

I love optical. I really do.

----------


## Now I See

I would love to be a part of this!  Unfortunately, I can't make that date.... :cry:   Will you all keep us posted?  LOL...how about a conference call?? :D

----------


## Uilleann

I am looking into an online option Heather, if I can find one that will work for our needs.  I imagine we'd like to have some form of video conferencing set up - perhaps via Skype or something similar?  At the least, a conference call type set-up might work as well.  I'm not a huge tech junkie - but perhaps others here are more aware of a viable solution for those who can't attend in person?

Bri~

----------


## Now I See

> I am looking into an online option Heather, if I can find one that will work for our needs. I imagine we'd like to have some form of video conferencing set up - perhaps via Skype or something similar? At the least, a conference call type set-up might work as well. I'm not a huge tech junkie - but perhaps others here are more aware of a viable solution for those who can't attend in person?
> 
> Bri~


thanks, pm sent...

----------


## Uilleann

I'm *STILL* waiting to get emails for some on our list above, and others if they care to work on the initial phases of working out the details we need to address for our July meeting.  So far, I've only hear from FOUR of you.  Come on folks!  Let me know how to reach you, and let's get this started!

Bri~

----------


## braheem24

Update:

*Atlanta July, 23, 24 & 25.*

1. Wmcdonald
2. Johns
3. Braheem24
4. uilleann
5. Kcount (aka: K-Dog)
6. wss2020 aka wes
7. Jana Lewis
8. Gagal
9. Laurie
10.

----------


## Uilleann

OK folks - I'm going to send out an email tonight to the group list I have so far.  I'll be sending it from my own gmail address.  (Don't want to post it here to avoid the spam bots.)  But I will title it: _Optiboard Licensure Project_.  I don't necessarily need a reply from everyone if you get the email, but if you DON'T see anything in your inboxes by tomorrow morning, and you have already sent me your address via PM here, drop me another line and I'll see if I can find out what's happened.

Otherwise, we'll go with the group we have so far, and hope that more join us over the coming days and weeks.

All the best!

Brian~

----------


## Fezz

> OK folks - I'm going to send out an email tonight to the group list I have so far. I'll be sending it from my own gmail address. (Don't want to post it here to avoid the spam bots.) But I will title it: _Optiboard Licensure Project_. I don't necessarily need a reply from everyone if you get the email, but if you DON'T see anything in your inboxes by tomorrow morning, and you have already sent me your address via PM here, drop me another line and I'll see if I can find out what's happened.
> 
> Otherwise, we'll go with the group we have so far, and hope that more join us over the coming days and weeks.
> 
> All the best!
> 
> Brian~


 
You're my *H*E*R*O* and I'm still a *Z*E*R*O*!!!!!

:bbg::cheers::cheers::cheers: :cry:

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> We need a national board with some teeth or we need to eliminate the other states that require a bogus license. I have a bogus license and as an owner of an optical feel that only opticians are harmed by rules no one else must follow but those that created the rules. 
> Craig


The really sad point that I continue to make is that opticians really don’t know what they don’t know.  When I designed the practical exam I administer, upgrading was foremost in my mind.  Unfortunately, it’s extremely difficult to make any licensing examination more comprehensive when the candidates lack a common educational experience.  When the ABO only has an overall pass rate of 50% you know the field is in trouble.

Roy

----------


## wmcdonald

Update: Summit: The Future of the American Optician; Where Do We Go From Here

I am pleased to announce today that there is to be a summit to discuss the future direction of Opticianry as a profession at the Southeastern Opticians Conference in Atlanta Julu 23, 24, 25, 2010. This initial meeting will be held at 8:00 AM and last until 12:00 at the concference (room to be announced) and all are invited. So far it appears we have 10 fom the nearly 8500 views of this thread who wish to participate. I do need to know if you are coming so we can make arrangements for adequate space, so please respond if you are planning on attending.

The format will be brief presentations by Dr. Ferguson and I, and an open discussion from all participants. I hope you will consider being there.

----------


## Jana Lewis

Quick question. 

The conference. Do we need to register or pay for a pass? What is the conference? CE? Vendors? Lectures? 

On another related note, does anyone know of some decent hotels to stay at that will be close by our meeting?

----------


## Uilleann

Warren, are we looking at about 4 hours for this meeting?  Which day?  I was under an impression this would (or at least could) be a weekend long event.  If it's that short, it'll be hard for me to justify the airfare out and back, but I probably have missed some important details here.  Thanks for the clarification.  :)

Bri~

P.S.  I've now heard from 14 of us who wish to stay in the loop via email prior to the meeting.  More can always be added later on if interested!

----------


## kcount

> Update: Summit: The Future of the American Optician; Where Do We Go From Here
> 
> I am pleased to announce today that there is to be a summit to discuss the future direction of Opticianry as a profession at the Southeastern Opticians Conference in Atlanta Julu 23, 24, 25, 2010. *This initial meeting will be held at 8:00 AM and last until 12:00 at the concference (room to be announced) and all are invited.* So far it appears we have 10 fom the nearly 8500 views of this thread who wish to participate. I do need to know if you are coming so we can make arrangements for adequate space, so please respond if you are planning on attending.
> 
> The format will be brief presentations by Dr. Ferguson and I, and an open discussion from all participants. I hope you will consider being there.


Brian, this is going to flow over into breakouts after the summit and further conversations. Ultimately this is going to be a weekend long meet with many debates and conversations.

----------


## wmcdonald

Sorry, I neglected to provide the day. We will meet on Saturday July 24, 2010. I will ask Diane Drake to please provide a link to the meeting. This used to be a very large meeting for Opticians all across the SE part of the US. Attendance is around 150. I would encourage your registration and aprticipation in the conference, as there will be some outstanding CE, but I do not think it is a requirement to come to this meeting. 

As to the length.......I am certain there will be many places we will meet outside this block. It is kind of them to offer a room at this hotel to us, and I do not want to take up too much time. I suspect we will have 25-30 people come, and so we will also join together at other places during the meeting. I intend to also have a large enough suite to accommodate our further discussion in the evening. 

Hotel will follow with Ms. Drakes post.

Fezz........Beer!
Warren

----------


## Uilleann

Excellent!  I appreciate the clarification Warren.  This is really turning into a BIG deal!  Can't wait to get this moving!

----------


## Uilleann

Alright Guys!

The first email has been sent!  The shot hear 'round the world??  Probably not....but a step towards progress for the likes of us and our profession?  Absolutely!  I'll be interested to watch (and add to where I feel I can constructively) the flow of ideas as we form our thoughts and ideas together!

All the best!

Brian~

----------


## Uilleann

> You're my *H*E*R*O* and I'm still a *Z*E*R*O*!!!!!
> 
> :bbg::cheers::cheers::cheers:



 _[whisper voice] pssst! FEZZ!  You can send an email to everyone too!   Just click on 'reply all' and send away.  But PLEASE and I mean PLEASE, no more pictures of that crazy bachelor party, you know the one I mean....with the elephant and the guy who looked like Liberace and the plastic lawn flamingos.  No more.  I'm not even kidding this time.  Seriously, that lady (or so I THINK) who dressed up as half bigfoot and half stripper really gave me serious nightmares.  I simply can't afford that level of therapy for the rest of my life.  So email NICE ok?!  ;) [/whisper voice]_

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

This has convinced me to get at least my ABO, of course, now I have to wait till fall.

----------


## Wes

There goes the N.A.O.L...

----------


## braheem24

> This has convinced me to get at least my ABO, of course, now I have to wait till fall.


Try to stay awake during the test.  I'm sure you'll be anxiously studying thru the nights.

----------


## price

HI , Warren
 I would like to attend the meeting in HOT ATLANTA ,Ga.
 I could not make the Roatx meeting I was working in Va.

Don Price ABO/ NCLE 
ROATx member
Va state license
Certified Refracting Optician

----------


## Diane

I would like to welcome each of you to Atlanta, GA on July 23, 24, 25, 2010.  This will is always a wonderful meeting, and we focus on education.  There will NOT be a trade show, but there will be exclusive individual vendors available during lunch on Saturday which is included with registration.  For those of you who don't register for the meeting, you could purchase a lunch ticket, and be a part of our live auction, which is done by our own Dr. Warren McDonald...always fun and exciting.  We also have a silent auction and raffle.  The education will be great, and is pretty much set.  We will have ABO and NCLE courses as well as a business track on Saturday.  

There will be plenty of opportunity for each of you to focus on this summit meeting as well as attend some good continuing education.  There is plenty to do in and around Atlanta in July.  I'll put together a packet for you if you are interested.    

The meeting will be at the:
Crown Plaza Ravinia
4355 Ashford Dunwoody Road
Atlanta, GA  30346 
770-395-7700 

Our meeting PR is not up yet. :( but you will be able to access it at:
The link is www.southeasternopticians.com 

Diane

----------


## Uilleann

I've got *good* news and *bad*...

Gwen and I have set a date of May 29th for our wedding.  And by Gwen and I - I mean Gwen.  So we'll be flying back east for a little wedding type thing then.  Sadly, this trip and all the associated accoutrements will be draining the travel coffers and I won't be able to make this meeting in July in person.  :(

However, Fezz said I could use the hall pass and be given some small degree of leniency in this case, as you only get married once...or is that twice?  Three times?  I don't remember, but I know he said it.

I'm still hoping to dial in via the web or even a phone conference call if I can.  I also haven't seen any real traffic yet on the email sent out late last week.  I'd love to throw around as many ideas as we can before the meeting, and try to work out some sort of framework beforehand that we can polish up in July.  That requires discussion now guys!

Let's keep the fire hot and make sure we don't loose any momentum between now and July!

All the best!

Brian~

----------


## Jana Lewis

> I've got *good* news and *bad*...
> 
> Gwen and I have set a date of May 29th for our wedding. And by Gwen and I - I mean Gwen. So we'll be flying back east for a little wedding type thing then. Sadly, this trip and all the associated accoutrements will be draining the travel coffers and I won't be able to make this meeting in July in person. :(
> 
> However, Fezz said I could use the hall pass and be given some small degree of leniency in this case, as you only get married once...or is that twice? Three times? I don't remember, but I know he said it.
> 
> I'm still hoping to dial in via the web or even a phone conference call if I can. I also haven't seen any real traffic yet on the email sent out late last week. I'd love to throw around as many ideas as we can before the meeting, and try to work out some sort of framework beforehand that we can polish up in July. That requires discussion now guys!
> 
> Let's keep the fire hot and make sure we don't loose any momentum between now and July!
> ...


 
Whatever the case....CONGRATS TO YOU!!!! Thank you for taking the bull by the horns! Your help and e-mails have been wonderful!

----------


## Johns

> However, Fezz said I could use the hall pass and be given some small degree of leniency in this case, as you only get married once...or is that twice? Three times? I don't remember, but I know he said it.
> 
> 
> Brian~


Make up your mind!! Who are you marrying...Gwen or Fezz?

----------


## varmint

> Make up your mind!! Who are you marrying...Gwen or Fezz?


I heard Fezz was looking for someone who could buy more beer, or at least be good at brewing.

----------


## Uilleann

> Make up your mind!! Who are you marrying...Gwen or Fezz?


Pffftttt!  Johns, this is UTAH Man!  I can have 'em BOTH!  :cheers::cheers::cheers::hammer:

----------


## braheem24

Utah may be ok in the 2 brides dept, you'll however get killed for being bi.

----------


## Uilleann

Wait Fezz is a DUDE?!   :drop:

:shiner::hammer: :Nerd: :p:D

----------


## Mr. Finney

braheem, delete some pm's to make room for more!

----------


## braheem24

Try now.

----------


## FullCircle

Wow! This has been a heck of a thread to read! I actually had to go back to the first post as I got toward the end just to keep track of what the heck was being discussed. LOL

I'm a believer in education in any form. I'd be unable to attend the conference but would like to be kept informed.  As I've managed to get sucked back into this profession, I figure I should become the best lab tech/optician I can. Is there going to be a forum or something so those of us not attending can keep up?

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

> Wait Fezz is a DUDE?!   :drop:
> 
> :shiner::hammer::p:D



yeah, with his black goatee he looks quite a lot like Ming the Merciless.:bbg:

----------


## wmcdonald

> Wow! This has been a heck of a thread to read! I actually had to go back to the first post as I got toward the end just to keep track of what the heck was being discussed. LOL
> 
> I'm a believer in education in any form. I'd be unable to attend the conference but would like to be kept informed. As I've managed to get sucked back into this profession, I figure I should become the best lab tech/optician I can. Is there going to be a forum or something so those of us not attending can keep up?


If there is sufficient interest. I am not sure where it will go, but I hope it gains some momentum.

----------


## varmint

It's very difficult to attend these meeting on the east coast for me, but I'm hoping this gets some momentum and I can contribute here in the west. I'm hoping we will able to be kept in the loop as this unfolds.

----------


## Johns

> It's very difficult to attend these meeting on the east coast for me, but I'm hoping this gets some momentum and I can contribute here in the west. I'm hoping we will able to be kept in the loop as this unfolds.



We could always follow up w/a meeting at VEW.

----------


## wmcdonald

A great idea, Johns. I will see what the turnout looks like and possibly do something at VEW. That would be easier than coming to Atlanta for many of our colleagues here.

----------


## optical24/7

ROATx held the 1st Legislative Conference for Un-Licensed States at last years' VEW. We are trying to secure an area for this years also.

----------


## varmint

> We could always follow up w/a meeting at VEW.


 
Yea...and then there could be an un-expo west too.

----------


## Johns

> Yea...and then there could be an un-expo west too.


Sorry...that's a different animal.

----------


## Mr. Finney

> Sorry...that's a different animal.


Party pooper!

----------


## Johns

> Party pooper!



Hey, we can all get together and hang out...that's a ton of fun.  However, the whole point of an unexpo is to hold it away from an expo.

I think it's a great place to meet for follow-up meetings for the McDonald Project, as many of us would be there anyway, and if not, it's a great excuse to get there.

----------


## harry a saake

WARREN, I would love to make this meeting, but i am committed to go to baltimore 2 days later and can not get that much time off, however in the future i will avail myself. This certainly has been an interesting thread, but like usual seems to get off the topic. I wonder sometimes if we cannot get past some of this silly and inane beer stuff,like where a bunch of drunken sailors, and start acting on the board here more like the pros were espousing to be.

----------


## varmint

Sorry Harry, I didn't intend to distract from this important thread and I'm hoping it gains much support and momentum. I do think the idea of the un-expo is important as well and hope to have the opportunity to participate in that sometime as well. As far as the drunken sailors, they learned it from the opticians anyway.
I thought the thread has stayed on topic very well and this movement may have a real chance to make a difference to our profession.

----------


## price

Hi I would like to attend the meeting no matter where it may be. I feel that this is very   important to all opticians. One or two beers is ok but get a keg we will have alot to talk about.  On a more professional level MARTINES.

 Don Price

----------


## wmcdonald

Don.....glad to hear from you. We will officially be meeting in Atlanta July 23, 24 and 25. We have a block of meeting time set Saturday morning at the conference, and I am pleased to see your post. Please join us!

Warren

----------


## Johns

So this is set in stone?  Is it safe to go ahead and  make reservations?  Has anybody seen any rates better than $106? (Which is pretty darn good for this hotel)  

The meeting's Saturday morning....arrive Friday PM w/a Sunday check-out?  I just want to be sure.

And again, if anybody from up north needs a ride, I can pick them up.

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## wmcdonald

It has been set, thanks to the great folks at the SEOC meeting. We will be there and look forward to your participation. It is much appreciated. The link for this years conference is not up yet, according to Diane, but will be very soon. 

See you in Atlanta!

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## Diane

> It has been set, thanks to the great folks at the SEOC meeting. We will be there and look forward to your participation. It is much appreciated. The link for this years conference is not up yet, according to Diane, but will be very soon. 
> 
> See you in Atlanta!


Until the administrators get the site up, you can follow the SouthEastern Opticians Conference on Facebook.

Diane

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## GAgal

Hello! Email sent to everyone that I had an address for...pls let me know if you didn't get it.

Thank you!

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## Wes

A few thoughts from the peanut gallery:
I agree that we need some form of licensure that is recognised across state lines, but the situation with a federal system is that those licensing powers are reserved to the states. Driver's licenses have reciprocity, based on similar licensing requirements. Most licensing states with higher licensing standards than others do not accept other states' licenses because they do not want to dilute the pool of qualified opticians. Until all states license, with similar requirements, reciprocity is a pipe dream. 

ABO/NCLE basic exams are not an indicator of competence. They, or something similar, could be used as an indicator for when someone is ready to interact with patients under supervision of a licensed optician. Why not make passage of the ABO-AC the national written testing standard for licensure, along with a practical? Why not make passage of the NCLE-AC and a practical the requirement to fit contacts independently?

I would love to see an opticianry degree (AAS) be the requirement, but for now, there just are not enough schools. Perhaps an AAS or BS in whatever, along with either he NAO's program, or the program Roy put together?

I posted the following in annoyance on another thread, and I just thought it'd make for a good read here for those of you who are following this thread...

_ I keep trying not to reply to this thread, but I just can't help myself. I see so many people wanting to be opticians because they see it as a low (or no) investment career with a high payout. Many want to pass the basic (why doesn't it say that on the certificate anyway? Basic Certified Optician; that looks nice), yes I said BASIC National Opticianry Competency Exam (an easy multiple guess exam that barely qualifies you to be a "frame stylist") aka the ABO exam, and go on to pretend that they're a fully qualified optician. It's funny how easy this exam is, and still has a 50% pass rate? WOW! Who are we allowing into our profession? Certainly not a lot of PROFESSIONALS! This irritates me to no end. The reason this field (used to) pays well is because of those who were excellent before us. Those who proved they were worthy and lobbied for licensure. 

Can you surface your own lenses? Can you write up the curves by hand? Can you edge your own lenses, taking into account the frame curvature, the lens power, and cyl axis for the best cosmetic fit? Can you tell your patients what frame is best for their rx? Do you understand how different materials refract, reflect, and disperse light? Can you do frame repairs and modification? Can you solder/braze? Do you understand ophthalmic lens design? Can you design a lens with minimal radial astigmatism and power error? Do you understand isekonics? Digital surfacing? CNC Lathe generators? Position of wear/wrap/panto compensation? If your answer is "huh?" or "no" then you're not a fully qualified optician.

Let's see, a couple months of ojt, a few weeks of studying "free" stuff, culminated by passing a very easy BASIC exam does not put you on even footing with those who've invested thousands of dollars and years of study, formal and otherwise. This attitude cheapens and weakens our entire profession, and drags us all down. A falling tide lowers all boats. Pardon us, we who have worked and invested, and do our best to elevate the profession through excellence, for not wanting to serve up free material to those not willing to invest in themselves. 

At this time, I feel that the openoptix studyguide may be doing more to ruin this profession than it is helping. It is free and basic, and is helping people call themselves opticians, while investing nothing. If we are to be judged by our lowest common denominator, I suggest raising the bar for entry. 

To paraphrase others, if YOU are not willing to invest in yourself, if YOU want someone to give you a handout, if YOU intend to do the very minimum and hope to reap maximum rewards, then do it elsewhere. I'm tired of seeing my profession watered down and degraded. Thanks for letting me vent._

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## Diane

Carrie, are you going to be at the meeting in Atlanta?  Obviously, I will since it is one I work with.  

Wes, I'm hoping that you will be there to shed some light on your ideas.

Diane

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## wmcdonald

Folks,
The meeting will be an exciting one, and I will be focusing on it in my article next month for ECP. In that article I re-present something designed a couple of years ago called the Registered Optician concept/initiative. It was presented to OAA Leadership in 2005 but no action was taken. This has the specific requirements that can differentiate professional Opticians from the entry-level folks. It can be compared to the CPA- accountant relationship. This is one idea several of us had put together before, and I thought may be of interest to the group in Atlanta. Please.......it is not the only idea out there. Several have others, I am certain. Bring them and lets talk about it. Collectively we may can develop a plan to get the ball rolling.

On licensure: it is a state thing in the representative republic we call America, and will never be a national thing without a constitutional change. Do not expect that. Licensure efforts must be from state to state. The concept I describe above is certainly not that, but the effort we are undertaking may produce a new breed of advanced Optician that will start at this level. In the UK and other EU nations, there is a thing called the Ophthalmic Optician. We may want to consider taking that or a similar name here. The Ophthalmic Opticians in England now are changing their name to Optometrists, and modeling much of their education after our US ODs. That OO title may just fit for us as we move forward and it has historic significance. But we can discuss it in Atlanta. Just an idea of what we will be discussing. I hope to see many there.

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## Wes

I'm planning to attend unless something unforseen comes up.

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## Uilleann

How are other national licensed competencies compared and the field leveled state to state I wonder?  Surely there must be some consistency.  How do doctors, lawyers and cosmetologists do it?

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## wmcdonald

They all have similar education and training and a nationall board certification. I will show you how this works in Atlanta, and I will also go to VEW is we have enough folks who wish to meet on this topic there.

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## GAgal

Hi Diane, 

I plan on being there even if its only for a day

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## Fezz

> Hi Diane, 
> 
> I plan on being there even if its only for a day


Sweet!

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## GAgal

Party!!!!! I'll even bring the tattooed hubby

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## Uilleann

"National Board Certification" seems to be what ABO represents for opticianry today correct?  If so, it's appalling.  It seems that perhaps a coup is needed to overthrow their money-hungry tactics, and replace them with a new, *competent* and highly adept national licensing group.

Who's with us me harties - YO HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :)

----------


## Fezz

> "It seems that perhaps a coup is needed to overthrow their money-hungry tactics, and replace them with a new, **competent* and highly adept* national licensing group.
> 
> Who's with us me harties - YO HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)


 
Where in the heck are we going to find a group like that?

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## kcount

Same place we find everyone else?

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## Uilleann

I nominate Fezz.  For national beer-meister.  I'm sure the rest will naturally fall into place right Warren?  ;)


_(is it clear the wedding planning it taking a toll on my sanity yet??)_  hehe

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## wmcdonald

He is my hero!

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## harry a saake

Warren, again sorry that i most likely will not make it, i want to put forth the following idea that maybe could be started at the meeting.

2 to four representatives from every state, be appointed to contact personally, by mail, or email and make these folks aware that we want national licensing, and lets see what they have to say, personal would be best. Look for people that already may have some political connections. this would need to be done at all levels, house, congress and start sending letters to Obama, some where along the line someones going to listen

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## Fezz

> 2 to four representatives from every state, be appointed to contact personally, by mail, or email and make these folks aware that* we want national licensing,* and lets see what they have to say, personal would be best.


 
I do not think that national licensing is the answer, or the goal with these discussions.

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## rbaker

> I do not think that national licensing is the answer, or the goal with these discussions.


Grandpa Pettibone always said "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!" He was also a great proponent of standing on your own two feet. One of the reasons that opticianry is sucking hind teat is that it has relied on outsiders to control and regulate the craft. 

Are any of you familiar with the term "Realtor" and do you see a paradigm there that might apply to improving the status of the optician?

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## wmcdonald

Harry there will be no national licensing. It is against the Constitution of the United States, and not something I would see as a viable effort. Pick the fights we can win. There are other ways to do this and we will discuss at the meeting. I will keep you informed as the issues take shape.

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## wmcdonald

> Grandpa Pettibone always said "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!" He was also a great proponent of standing on your own two feet. One of the reasons that opticianry is sucking hind teat is that it has relied on outsiders to control and regulate the craft. 
> 
> Are any of you familiar with the term "Realtor" and do you see a paradigm there that might apply to improving the status of the optician?


That is what we are suggesting, Mr. Baker. I appreciate the comments. I also use the analogy of the CPA versus the standard accountant. We must differentiate ourselves, and it can start with something similar.

----------


## Uilleann

So we're saying we need to axe the ABO and start a new, competent, active and much stronger national licensing organization correct?  Is that what it boils down to in essence here?  Obviously the educational requirements would be a part of that as well - but from a board licensure standpoint - that's what I'd like to have a more solid understanding of.

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## Fezz

The ABO is a bloated money making scam as far as I am concerned. They dropped the ball long ago and have been telling us otherwise for a long time, on my opinion.

----------


## kcount

> The ABO is a bloated money making scam as far as I am concerned. They dropped the ball long ago and have been telling us otherwise for a long time, on my opinion.


I would agree to that.

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## YrahG

> So we're saying we need to axe the ABO and start a new, competent, active and much stronger national licensing organization correct?  Is that what it boils down to in essence here?  Obviously the educational requirements would be a part of that as well - but from a board licensure standpoint - that's what I'd like to have a more solid understanding of.


I don't want to be licensed, I want to be separated from the masses of uneducated and the dim witted.  That's my goal, I think their are enough licensed dim wits that I don't want to be in that group anymore than the optician group I am in now. 

Realtor - You see commercials all the time talking about the difference between a real estate agent and a Realtor.  Realtor is a brand that represents the cream of the crop, the pick and chose who qualifies and they make sure not to tarnish the brand.

CPA - Their are many accountants, but it is difficult and requires you meet certain criteria to become a Certified Public Accountant, again this is a brand that they do not want to tarnish.

ABO - Could have meant something but the brand is tarnished and their is no way to trust that any new brand handled by that organization would not meet the same fate.  The test has been continually dumbed down over the years and it is now and will continue to be a money maker for the organization.  Thetest should remain what it is or continually get more difficult as newer technology comes forward.

I don't want another test, I don't want another certification.  I want challenging hoops put in place.  When 50% of the people on this thread say it might be excessive then i say add one hoop and we have the criteria necessary.  That's the ideal brand I want to represent, anything less is just going to be a waste of time.

I won't belong to any group that is not going to hold any and all opticians accountable for gaining an education, that means grandfathering is a no go for me.  Sorry but it cost me both time and money that I will not get back.  Or make the criteria for a non-educated optician the equivalent of tuition for an education.  Either way if the road block to this industry is again nothing but a pulse we have accomplished nothing.  I think a probationary membership could be a viable option in which case the member has so many years to attain the proper educational requirements otherwise they are not a member.  I also think that probationary members should not be able to represent themselves as full members.  There needs to be a divide, there has to be a divide.

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## kcount

I say we start the Registered Opticians Association, Set the bar somewhere on the far side of Master Optician and each member markets the 'Brand'.  Like I plan on marketing being a Master Optician in a few months.

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## YrahG

> I say we start the Registered Opticians Association, Set the bar somewhere on the far side of Master Optician and each member markets the 'Brand'.  Like I plan on marketing being a Master Optician in a few months.


That's exactly the direction I could see this as a success, ultimately everyone needs to own the brand which means it needs to be highly difficult to attain so that everyone involved has a vested interest.  Once that's accomplished saying things like promoting the brand means something, since it would be much more difficult to take advantage of the brand.  That's why i advocate a educational component, it means that if things are successful and the offices that have "branded opticians" are in more demand or recognized other offices in the area will either have two years of education ahead of them before the could exploit the brand or they would need to hire a more in demand "branded optician".

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## Wes

> I don't want to be licensed, I want to be separated from the masses of uneducated and the dim witted. That's my goal, I think their are enough licensed dim wits that I don't want to be in that group anymore than the optician group I am in now. 
> 
> Realtor - You see commercials all the time talking about the difference between a real estate agent and a Realtor. Realtor is a brand that represents the cream of the crop, the pick and chose who qualifies and they make sure not to tarnish the brand.
> 
> CPA - Their are many accountants, but it is difficult and requires you meet certain criteria to become a Certified Public Accountant, again this is a brand that they do not want to tarnish.
> 
> ABO - Could have meant something but the brand is tarnished and their is no way to trust that any new brand handled by that organization would not meet the same fate. The test has been continually dumbed down over the years and it is now and will continue to be a money maker for the organization. Thetest should remain what it is or continually get more difficult as newer technology comes forward.
> 
> I don't want another test, I don't want another certification. I want challenging hoops put in place. When 50% of the people on this thread say it might be excessive then i say add one hoop and we have the criteria necessary. That's the ideal brand I want to represent, anything less is just going to be a waste of time.
> ...


By far the best post on the thread.  I agree wholeheartedly.  This idea, concept, passion, what have you, is the reason I went for the Master cert, and I'll go after this as well...

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## wmcdonald

Once you see my ECP article next month, you will see this is the direction we tried to take several years back through the OAA but it was not acted upon. Other issues came to the front which took the focus off the issue. Education is not typically seen as significant to the profession as it now exists. That is EXACTLY the direction I see as viable RIGHT NOW! You will hear more in Atlanta, and I feel we have a real chance to make history!

Let me ask you to do one thing. I am hearing a lot of anti- sentiments here. Anti-ABO, anti-OAA, anti- whatever.......and that is not productive. Believe me, there is not one single person here more frustrated than I with the lack of leadership and direction, but we must focus on what we can control and the future, and not on what we cannot. I belong to every national organization we have and see some real fine people in them that also want to do something to help. Please be positive, and you will be surprised and what we can do. I have many very close friends in leadership positions in organizations across the country and beyond, and they all want to do the right thing. Lets be an example of what can be accomplished and bring all people together through our actions. Don't alienate them and make them our enemy before we even start. 

For the first time in years, I see some light because of your response to this and other posts and articles I have written. We can make a major difference in the direction of this profession and I am thrilled. See you in Atlanta.

Warren

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## Fezz

Ok, ok...... enough jerking around!

Let's stop all of the BS!

Who is going, who is stepping up, who is stepping aside, and are we all ready to TRY and make a difference already or what? 

Talk is cheap!

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## Fezz

It is going to be a real struggle for me to get there, but I am committed to going. The way it looks now, Harry Chiling and I may be rolling out in my Cowboy Cadillac Friday afternoon, crushing pavement all night, and rolling into Georgia very early Saturday morning like 5-6:00 am. We will have to freshen up somewhere, hit the meeting, get some chit chat in and hop back on the pavement early Sunday morning. Since sleep doesn't fit in the schedule, does anybody who is attending want to offer up their hotel room so Harry and I can give ourselves a birdbath or two so that we don't offend too much (not including what we may say at the meeting)?

The Red Eye Express is ready to roll...........are you?

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## Wes

May I humbly offer my quarters, whatever they may be, for all our noses' sake!

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## Fezz

> May I humbly offer my quarters, whatever they may be, for all our noses' sake!


Your good looks and charm pale in comparison to your generosity!

I may have to take you up on this offer!

Are you ok with lime green speedos?

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## kcount

LOCKED AND LOADED. (Beside my Mom will kill me if I dont come for a visit)  I got Georgia On My Mind (Que the piano)

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## kcount

> Your good looks and charm pale in comparison to your generosity!
> 
> I may have to take you up on this offer!
> 
> Are you ok with lime green speedos?


As long as you bring a growler or three I cant see Wes being upset if you sleep in your birthday suit. (Wes I'd get a roll away for Fezz, Harry is one thing but those fringe leather pants gotta' work up a lather)

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## GAgal

Fezz in a lime green speedo.....teeheee...hahahahah.....lmao....bringing the camera!!!! Can't wait to meet and see the rest of ya'll again

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## pseudonym

The ABO isn't the only moneyed interest that will fight raising the entry requirements. You also have to get the big box stores behind it. Beyond education, what sets doctors apart from opticians? Doctors can be sued. Opticians cannot. Change that, and you'll see the entry requirement change pretty fast.

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## hcjilson

I'm with you even though National Talk Like a Pirate Day isn't until September!  I hate to bring up politics during a discussion of this nature but you will have an EXTREMELY difficult time bringing the licensed states into line on this issue. As Dr.s McDonald and Ferguson can attest, I have been working toward this for many years (bringing states into line for one "national practical exam" to be adopted by all states. I was told by one of the respondents in this thread that I wouldn't live long enough to see it. I am starting to believe him at this point.

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## wmcdonald

> The ABO isn't the only moneyed interest that will fight raising the entry requirements. You also have to get the big box stores behind it. Beyond education, what sets doctors apart from opticians? Doctors can be sued. Opticians cannot. Change that, and you'll see the entry requirement change pretty fast.


This effort will come from a desire to improve. If you wish to participate, join the meeting....glad to have you. We no longer wish to allow the tail to wag the dog. The members of the profession should dictate where and how we move forward, not any retailer. It can be done, and Pharmacy and Optometry are examples. We must set our own standards.

The certifying agency should not set the standards, either. Again the tail is wagging the dog to maintain a large base of folks taking a certification examination that most feel is weak and needs to be improved. This cash cow needs some new water! Our discussion of this topic may shed some light on the subject that helps. 

I hope you can join us.

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## YrahG

> I'm with you even though National Talk Like a Pirate Day isn't until September!  I hate to bring up politics during a discussion of this nature but you will have an EXTREMELY difficult time bringing the licensed states into line on this issue. As Dr.s McDonald and Ferguson can attest, I have been working toward this for many years (bringing states into line for one "national practical exam" to be adopted by all states. I was told by one of the respondents in this thread that I wouldn't live long enough to see it. I am starting to believe him at this point.


If you were to have a practical that incorporates all the states practicals and all the states requirements wouldn't that be a "national examination"?

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## wmcdonald

> I'm with you even though National Talk Like a Pirate Day isn't until September!  I hate to bring up politics during a discussion of this nature but you will have an EXTREMELY difficult time bringing the licensed states into line on this issue. As Dr.s McDonald and Ferguson can attest, I have been working toward this for many years (bringing states into line for one "national practical exam" to be adopted by all states. I was told by one of the respondents in this thread that I wouldn't live long enough to see it. I am starting to believe him at this point.



Harry,
This issue will be national in scope and will not be a board issue in any state. By using advanced education and training to differentiate ourselves, we will gain a competitive advantage. Much like the CPA vs. a general accountant. It is a first step towards legitimization. Glad to see yuo are coming. We need you.

Warren

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## morbidcontessa

i wouldn't be surprised if the larger retail chains and manufacturers lobby to keep us unregulated. they have a lot of money and a lot of pull.
what if all of a sudden they had to pay ALL of us $25 an hour instead of $9 or $12? i live in oklahoma and yes they pay us THAT little. they'd go broke. overnight. they can easily afford to even pay state govornments to turn a blind eye lol on us. almost everyone thinks i went to school to be a lab manager. but no just worked and studied my butt off.
but as inflation and minimum wage increase, the eyemarts eyemasters luxotica just keep falling behind. and it shows. they want stringent quality while forcing us to produce as quickly as possible while giving me burger king retards that aren't fit to load a cyl machine. lazy tards come cheap. and the uninformed public doesn't even KNOW we are unregulated! $50 glasses are $50 for a reason. our retail can barely transpose a script, they don't even know what they are selling other than some clear stuff in a frame. and because a customer can buy eyewear so cheap and quickly they treat us like dry cleaners and t shirt vendors. yeah most of my 'colleauges" don't know anything and are way too lazy to learn.
ecca won't even offer a pay increase for those that take it upon themselves to get their abo. when i told my territory director i was taking it she said "why? you WON'T get a raise." and if you pass and they don't "loose" your paperwork, they "might" reimburse you the test cost. HA
i've been job hunting for a while now, but i also want to move out of state. i want to move to a state that requires licence. i'd rather stay in lab, but if my customers we're dr patients and not people wasting time at a mall or "looking for the best deal" i'm sure i'd love dealing with them.
does anyone know where i can find a list of what each state requires of us and what office to contact to get it?
i'm dieing to leave my midwestern slave labor camp and go coastal

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## wmcdonald

This 15-page thread addresses some important issues. You are not alone, and we have done that to ourselves. Quite frankly, if you are unhappy, why not move or do something else. The reason many do not is because they can't. They came into this field unable to do anything else, it was easy and required little to no preparation and it was a job! That has to stop, and this is the first step for some of us. Come to join us In Atlanta, and we'll see how we can help.

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## pseudonym

> does anyone know where i can find a list of what each state requires of us and what office to contact to get it?


This is what you're looking for:

http://www.oaa.org/index.php?id=24

The rest of your post just makes my point. Any effort to make the standard more stringent will fail if the big retailers aren't persuaded that it's in their best interest to change the standard. Nothing persuades like money. I've heard there are different optical organizations that are fighting letting opticians be sued for malpractice, and I'm not so sure that's a good thing.

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## wmcdonald

From your personal information, I assume you are a student. I would suggest that Opticians have always been able to be sued and do not know who told you they could not, but they are wrong. Professionals of all sort face these issues, and while not a regular happening, it has in the past been an issue for a small number. Read the entire thread, which you obviously did not do.

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## Uilleann

Do the big boxes out there really want to take on that fight?  Is it worth the cost to them (certainly in the millions, and perhaps in the billions when all the dust settles nation wide) I believe a concerted public awareness and education blast is needed.  Most of the general public don't KNOW exactly how little training - indeed if any at ALL - their corner McTician has.  I believe many would be appalled, and very likely change their eye health care purchasing habits.  But the problem is they DON'T know.  And the public can't be made to care about something they know nothing about.

There is certainly more than one way this can potentially all play out.  There is a chance - however slim - that the big boxes could use this sort of a movement to their own gain.  And believe me - if they see that every other optical out there is charging more for a better product as well as much higher quality of care, they will be more inclined to raise their pricing as well.  Mind you' they'll still remain lower than "everybody else", but if that everybody else is significantly higher than they are, they may be motivated to raise their pricing structures as well, and increase their ever thinning profits.  The battle of quality over quantity is not black and white.  But the more the public knows, the more likely they will be to be more prudent in their purchasing habits.

You have to remember - it's not the big boxes who are holding the all mighty dollar.  It's the CUSTOMERS who do.  If they stopped buying from the big boxes even in part, and shifted their dollars to private heath care providers once again, You'll likely see the big boys do one of two things: A- Fold up their optical operations entirely.  or B- Change their business models to work with the new opticianry educational and wage requirements, and try to hold on enough so as not to loose their optical dept. shirts.

Who knows where this will all end up.  But it's a great and highly motivating shift towards improvement of our profession!!!

----------


## canaanlilli

> Entry requirements need to be uniform from state to state. Currently, for a number of reasons, (mainly protectionist in my opinion) you cannot get states to agree on one set of standards for all states. You cannot get Virginia to agree that a PD is the same in VA as it is in FL. You cannot get FL to agree that neutralization is the same in FL as it is in MA, or that contact lenses (invented by an optician) can be fit in CT but not in TN. It's a hodge podge and until that mess is straightened out nothing can happen.
> 
> If all states would adopt an entry level which mandated an associates degree a lot of the above problems would disappear, however you would never be able to get the optometrists behind an optician's ability to fit and dispense contact lenses. Professional jealousy (and protectionism again) are at the root of this problem and frankly is one of the reasons opticians reamain fractured in their advancement.


I disagree. I do not have a associates, and am grateful that 12 years ago I was able to enter the profession with out one. I do believe that apprenticeship and the ability to get an associates after you have started are a good idea. 

If I had been required to get an associates before becoming an optician, then I would not be one. Most people don't say,"I want to be an optician when I grow up." Plus, right now most degree programs teach theory with out teaching the business or customer service part of the job. THEORY IS NOT ENOUGH, it isn't even the most important part of the job.  Theory and Customer service are siblings, without both you cannot be a good optician. 

For me, I literally became an optician out of desperation for a job, as a single mother. I then discovered after my training period, (back when LC had a good training program) that I really enjoyed the position and it was one of the highest non-degree jobs available. Because I had good training, and managers that supported me I was able to take the ABO and pass it the first time out. I have recieved numerous customer service accolades because patients feel I am knowledgable and that I care about them. WITHOUT the customer service training that would not be the case. And you cannot learn customer service in a classroom or apprenticeship setting. 

What I am saying is that yes, we need more education opportunities and licensure to be more respected,but we do not need to make the two mandatory to even get the job. Get the workers in the door, help pay for their education, apprentice them and support them, teach them excellent customer service and then you will have the foundation for an amazing optician. Plus you'll weed out those who are not passionate about it.

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## wmcdonald

We can no longer afford to have people who enter this field from "desperation". I realize it was a positive thing for you and I am pleased it worked out, but for the profession to advance, we must improve which requires education and other formal training requirements. I know you will proably take that personally, and if you have read this lengthy thread prior to your disagreement, you will understand further why we need to make this kind of change. It is not about you, and folks who can do nothing else. It is about attracting more folks who seek to enter a profession willing to pay the education dues to get there and become a true professional. When anybody can do it, and that is largely the case, why are we even necessary? Is it so simple even a cave man can do it? Obviously you feel that way or you would not argue about a basic education!

Many here see Opticianry as a profession that has lost its spark, largely due to poor leadership that has dumbed us down so folks COULD enter with 0 requirements in unlicensed states, and minimal even in licensed ones. We want to see the field advance and to do so requires a better prepared workforce, thereby eliminating those who are ill-prepared at the outset. If that is offensive, stand in line, you are not the first. But if you really want to see the field improve, think objectively about how we do that. You will soon understand this change process. Even those who came in like you, who want to see things improve, should support this kind of initiative. Folks can still get a job, but can no longer call themselves an Optician!

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## Uilleann

As a side note - one does not go through years and years of med school to learn "customer service".  There has been a disgusting air of entitlement that has grown and festered throughout the eye care industry.  It has long since ceased being about actual eye health, and become instead a poor venue for "fashion" (in the small minds of some), and a chance for any business small and large to try and hop on the bandwagon for a piece of the "medical" pie.  We have seen the rise of the discount chains, locally and nationally.  We've seen the bloated big box retail outlets, the mall anchor stores, and now the internet start-ups all clamoring for a piece of the action.

"Customer service", in medicine however, should never be more about cheap prices, refund policies, buyers remorse, or any other utterly retail based policy, than it is about the quality of care and product provided.  I strongly feel we, as an industry, need to move as far away from "customer service" as we can, and focus much more on the task at hand which is _bettering our profession_.

While I also came into this field without an official university degree, I would have been far better off for it at the time.  Harry makes a solid point: we need a grand unified vision, nationally.  And I believe this is a good starting mark for us to solidify around.  "Passion" for one's craft is admirable, but it doesn't replace a good education.  I doubt very much that any of us are naive enough to think that the implementation of such a broad change nationwide is likely to happen in the next year or two.  But, a change is certainly what's needed and that is what we're all working for.  

I believe most of us here of us take a fair deal of personal pride in our own professional work ethic and standards.  This is us - raising the bar for ourselves.  It is pretty pathetic when you really think about it, that a mere barber needs much greater education and licensure requirements nationwide than does an optician.  Think about it.

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## canaanlilli

> We can no longer afford to have people who enter this field from "desperation". I realize it was a positive thing for you and I am pleased it worked out, but for the profession to advance, we must improve which requires education and other formal training requirements. I know you will proably take that personally, and if you have read this lengthy thread prior to your disagreement, you will understand further why we need to make this kind of change. It is not about you, and folks who can do nothing else. It is about attracting more folks who seek to enter a profession willing to pay the education dues to get there and become a true professional. When anybody can do it, and that is largely the case, why are we even necessary? Is it so simple even a cave man can do it? Obviously you feel that way or you would not argue about a basic education!
> 
> Many here see Opticianry as a profession that has lost its spark, largely due to poor leadership that has dumbed us down so folks COULD enter with 0 requirements in unlicensed states, and minimal even in licensed ones. We want to see the field advance and to do so requires a better prepared workforce, thereby eliminating those who are ill-prepared at the outset. If that is offensive, stand in line, you are not the first. But if you really want to see the field improve, think objectively about how we do that. You will soon understand this change process. Even those who came in like you, who want to see things improve, should support this kind of initiative. Folks can still get a job, but can no longer call themselves an Optician!


 
I think you missed part of my point. I ABSOLUTLEY believe education is important. I think you missed the last paragraph...I will retype it for you.

What I am saying is that yes, we need more education opportunities and licensure to be more respected,but we do not need to make the two mandatory to even get the job. Get the workers in the door, help pay for their education, apprentice them and support them, teach them excellent customer service and then you will have the foundation for an amazing optician. Plus you'll weed out those who are not passionate about it. 

My grandfather was an optician for 60 years, and a charter member of the ABO, and he always said the best way to improve the publics opinion of opticians is to improve all parts of training including putting them on the sales floor from day one...

let me recap

Employment, OTJ Training 6 months (most people are able to figure out if opticinary is a good fit by the end of 6 months), then help pay for 2 year degree(if able to, if not help them figure out Finacial Aid), then have them sit the ABO, then have them sit the boards. As I said, most people don't say"when I grow up I want to be an optician"(except for my odd children.)

Get over thinking we need an AA first, then you waste valuable education money when you may end up in a job you hate. And trust me there is nothing worse than a optician who hates their job.
Also, desperation isn't neccesarily a bad thing. Many of us find our life's calling when we are forced to look at any opportunity as a blessing. 

And Uillean, your right customer service shouldn't be about cheap prices, and the refund policies and such need to be in place for those people who you can not please. BUT good CUSTOMER SERVICE is beig able to make your patient feel safe, appreciated, educated, and free to make good choices. Having good patient care/customer service skills is part of being a good retail optician. Lab opticians don't need the skills, they can be cranky, but those of us who need to deal with patients need to be able to make them feel important.

And by the way, now in med school you do have to take "patient care" classes, and that is also part of why you do rotations, is to learn how to have better "bedside" manner because people complained that doctors no longer cared for their patients. ( I know this because I have several friends who graduated med school)

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## wmcdonald

I understood you clearly. But until we require an education as the entry point, we will gain NO RESPECT from anyone. An AAS degree (or any associate degree) is a minimal requirement. I am proud your grandfaher was an Optician, and back in his day many professions trained by apprenticeship. Charter members had to do nothing except pay the fee, and they were certified. It was called grandfathering, and did not prove they knew anything. We cannot afford that today, and it must not be allowed. 

We also DO NOT need is anyone on the floor, unless they are sweeping it, taking care of patients. Today's complicated lens designs require that the Optician have higher-order capabilities and competencies than in the past, and that should be obvious. You have a different philosphy than I and that is your right. I see Opticianry as a profession and not just a job. If it is something that requires an education, and I strongly believe it is (most Opticians have limited knowledge of optics, and do not even realize what they do not know), education and training must come first. It is more than making a pretty pair of glasses!

One concept is to develop a seperate level of Optician with advanced training, much like nurses have done. Leave the current Dispensing Optician where they are, and those who wish to do more may do so. PAs and Nurse Practitioners are mid-level medical practitioners. Why can't we assume that role in the eye care delivery system. ODs have moved into parity in many cases with MDs and that mid-level position just make work for us. That is the direction I see us taking at this point.

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## Laurie

Ditto, Warren and Harry,

Again, no offense to the previous poster, however, lots of my students did choose opticianry, rather than default to opticianry.  I also chose opticianry, and have not looked back.  I am optimistic about our future.

Harry, in thinking about what you wrote:

"If all states would adopt an entry level which mandated an associates degree a lot of the above problems would disappear, however you would never be able to get the optometrists behind an optician's ability to fit and dispense contact lenses. Professional jealousy (and protectionism again) are at the root of this problem and ..."

I think we can adopt a national standard, I cannot speak on behalf of Florida, however, from conversations here and there, states like FL will likely adopt a national standard, as long as the standard meets the highest level in the country.  Neutralization is not different in MA or FL (remember, I love MA, in my heart I am still MARDO girl and past prez), however, the FL neutralization practical also involves measuring, plotting, and reading vertical components of prism and combining OD and OS for resultant vertical prism...more of a test in many competencies, not simple neutralization.  As long as we bring the standard to the highest possible denominator, I think buy-in from the tougher states like FL and NY would occur.

We can do this, I am looking forward to the meeting in ATL and then at VEW.

: )

Laurie

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## canaanlilli

Do you realized how close to the same these two ideas are? I think you and I have a case of saying the same only different. I am offended that you do not feel that I came to this profession in a good way. I am a better optician than many I know who have that AAS or are licensed. But otherwise I think we have the same general concept.

Employment, OTJ Training 6 months (most people are able to figure out if opticinary is a good fit by the end of 6 months), then help pay for 2 year degree(if able to, if not help them figure out Finacial Aid), then have them sit the ABO, then have them sit the boards. As I said, most people don't say"when I grow up I want to be an optician"(except for my odd children

and/or

One concept is to develop a seperate level of Optician with advanced training, much like nurses have done. Leave the current Dispensing Optician where they are, and those who wish to do more may do so. PAs and Nurse Practitioners are mid-level medical practitioners. Why can't we assume that role in the eye care delivery system. ODs have moved into parity in many cases with MDs and that mid-level position just make work for us. That is the direction I see us taking at this point.

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## wmcdonald

Our ideas are no where close to being similar, because education must come first if we are to reach our full potential. I do not mean to offend you, but if that is the case, you will just have to be offended. How can you think you came in a good way when you did not plan, but came by default? Can you think of ANY other profession you can enter that way? Every thing else requires education and training, and we (in 27 states) require a pulse. And I still continue to have this silly debate with folks who cannot seem to realize we are dying as a profession BECAUSE anyone can do what we do in the current environment. If someone wants to test the water, that is fine, and I think that is a good idea. But do not call them an Optician. The title should carry some weight, which at this point it does not, except in pockets where licensure is strong. I was in Tennessee 2 weeks ago lecturing to a group, and this is a licensed state. The majority of the folks there could not find the power of a lens in a given meridian, nor use Prentice' Rule to determine prism values. They had NO idea about basic optics, and one complained that I had intimited them by asking questions. Hell, we have the lowest common denominator calling themselves professionals, and in reality, they are nothing more tna spectacle salespeople. Until someone pays some dues, that is where we remain. Our leadership continues to do NO planning for the future, and each generation is dumbed down due to the lack of required preparation. Now......I am sure you are a wonderful Optician. I do not debate the fact that there are great folks in unlicensed states who are excellent, but they are not the benchmark. We are measured by our lowest common denominator. That number is far more than the good ones today, and if we continue to go the way you indicate, that is how we remain.

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## Uilleann

Actually Warren, I would take it a step further.  I believe that not only will we remain as we are, but that we will continue to self-destruct into obscurity.  Education is key, along with national standardization.  I would go out on a limb and make a guess that I know more than 80% of the "dispensing opticians" in the US today.  And yet, even at that, I often realize that I am in no way close to where I'd like to be knowledge-wise.  Many of the older skill sets one used to use daily in a lab setting are completely gone today, and we are more likely to be influenced by the color and style of a frame rather than the quality of a lens and it's mounting to provide "vision care" for today's general optical patient.

Without a large, and admittedly _VERY_ uncomfortable shift for most of us, I can see no hope for any sort of change whatsoever.  Warren's hit the nail squarely on the head.  We (as opticians of the past several decades) have let ourselves fall to precisely where we find ourselves today.  And we have to be the ones to first desire a change, and then to make it happen.  "Customer service" is over-used IMHO and masks what good medicine really should be all about.  There is no need to offer ridiculous warranties, buyers remorse loopholes & return policies, or any sort of "safety net" for any patient when the very best of patient care is given through proper optical education.

Look at how many patients return to demand a refund from a doctor for any form of medical care they feel wasn't up to their expectation.  Compare that number against all the claims made in dispensaries nation-wide.  The disparity in sheer number is huge.  We CAN better ourselves, better our profession, and better the quality of care and product we provide.  We CAN do this.  Unfortunately, there will be many offended, put off, or otherwise disinclined to follow the direction we'd like to take.  That is every American's right to choose.  But there are a growing number of us who sincerely want to raise the bar.  And that is our aim here and now.

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## libellule

"What I am saying is that yes, we need more education opportunities and licensure to be more respected,but we do not need to make the two mandatory to even get the job. Get the workers in the door, help pay for their education, apprentice them and support them, teach them excellent customer service and then you will have the foundation for an amazing optician. Plus you'll weed out those who are not passionate about it."



Seriously? Well then, I hope you are ok the next time you go to the physical therapist or dental hygenist that they are doing 'on the job training'. This is about quality vision care....

And, I chose this profession and then, instead of expecting the public to be my guinnea pigs, I went to school. I spent two years dedicated to my education. AND we WERE required to learn business and customer service. The school has a dispensary....where only second year students could work, under the supervision of an instructer.

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## rbaker

In most licensed states we do have a means to further educate opticians. Its called CONTINUING EDUCATION and most states require a certain number of credits per year. I seem to recall that the introduction of CE's was going to cure all that ailed us. So why is the CE requirement not raising the bar in licensed states? Clearly someone has fallen asleep at the switch here. Does the ABO have a CE component for maintaining certification? How do you feel about retesting every few years to insure that everyone stays up to speed?

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## canaanlilli

Yes, I have to take CE's courses to keep my ABO. It is twelve credits every 3 years. Retesting would be okay on a 6 to 10 year basis. I think re-cert through ce's should happen every 2 not three years, and at that I think we should have to take so many of the ce's each year. Right now I can take all my ce's at the end of my certification period and still be okay. But my Optometrist have to take so many a year and pay their dues every two years. 

the thing I find interesting about this entire discussion is that we agree on education being important, we just don't agree on the method, order of training. I would love for my two states to be license states. I do not see the reason to take both a ABO and seperate state board test, can someone explain why we can't have you sit the ABO and if you pass it then you are licensed, if not then you are not.
I know of three opticians in Fl or had to take the ABO 4 TIMES before they could pass it, but they passed their state board on the first try. That does not give me much confidence in that states licensing board. I've looked at 2 AAS in Opticianry programs and neither of them had more or better training than what I recieved in my first year as an optician (lab and dispensing training), so you will excuse me if a AAS doesn't stack up to mean much to me. 

The person who mentioned the AAS with a dispensary..awesome...that is a great idea. BUT YOU should be getting your frame fitting and styling at the beginning of your training. Be on the floor as a frame stylist while you are learning theory. This way you still have constant supervision, you are not taking measurements but are observing correct measurements and you are building your customer service skills from the beginning. 

YOU WANT RESPECT??? Convince your doctors to treat you as a professional. Even if you have a degree, if your doctor doesn't see you as part of a holistic approach to eye health care then neither will the patient.  Also, quit acting as if you are the god of opticians, the arrogance that many patients encounter from "experienced" and "Licensed" opticians just makes them hate you. 
We are a para health profession, we are not a health professional. 

WM...professions you can go into with education...OPTOMETRIC TECH!!! Look someone in our field. They have certifications available, but in most states you can walk in, recieve OTJ training and then go for your certification. heck, I am in the beginning part of my Optometric Tech training right now, Oh, wait, in some states, CONTACT LENS EXAMINERS (although most of the time that is an optometric tech or optician or has taken on that role as well.) NEITHER OF THIS HAS A AAS in my surrounding states, and trust me I think a tech should considering that in many offices they are the ones who do the actual exam and refraction, then the doctors just check their work. 

Someone want to give me the opportunity to get my degree in my field, AWESOME! I do feel that for those of us it is not available to, when it becomes available we should be able to take placement test and if we can pass them then not have to go through the whole program. 

Now, yes, my feelers got hurt, I will admit that. Part of the reason being that I feel as if you are underestimating people. Plus I am tired and have been researching for my college classes and my Aboa...
So, for now I will move on, and go lick my wounds in the corner...
*walks off, tired, circles the research paper a couple of times and passes out."

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## hcjilson

> I seem to recall that the introduction of CE's was going to cure all that ailed us. So why is the CE requirement not raising the bar in licensed states? Clearly someone has fallen asleep at the switch here. Does the ABO have a CE component for maintaining certification? How do you feel about retesting every few years to insure that everyone stays up to speed?


To my knowledge, I was the first optician in the commonwealth to propose continuing education for opticians.(This idea was not original, it was patterned after the New England Congress of Optometry) I don't believe I ever indicated it was going to cure all our ills. The reason I can say that with certainty is because my motives, back in the sixties, had more to do with strengthening a moribund state society than it did for education. I am somewhat embarrassed to admit this, but it is true.It also serves to illustrate that 2 wrongs can make a right.

I do not agree that we have not raised the bar. In the Commonwealth as in most licensed states, we now require proof of competency in the entry level skills of Opticianry. We require passage of ABO, NCLE, and the practical skills associated with this profession. We, who have been around for 5 years or more, have the knowledge of those years which (mainly at our customers expense), have given us advanced skills that make ABO, NCLE, and the practical, seem like easy tests. Let's not loose sight in our pomposity, of what we were in the beginning. I firmly believe the bar should be raised because it's the only way the profession can advance, but I would prefer not to throw the baby out with the bathwater if you get the drift. Requiring recertification is unnecessary. Pursuing advanced certification is the route to travel.

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## Diane

As promised, as soon as the information on the website was updated, I would post it here, since the meeting will be held during the SEOC meeting.  The new website is up, and the information should be on it shortly for the SouthEastern Opticians Conference.  The URL is www.southeasternopticians.org

Diane

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## wmcdonald

> Yes, I have to take CE's courses to keep my ABO. It is twelve credits every 3 years. Retesting would be okay on a 6 to 10 year basis. I think re-cert through ce's should happen every 2 not three years, and at that I think we should have to take so many of the ce's each year. Right now I can take all my ce's at the end of my certification period and still be okay. But my Optometrist have to take so many a year and pay their dues every two years. 
> 
> the thing I find interesting about this entire discussion is that we agree on education being important, we just don't agree on the method, order of training. I would love for my two states to be license states. I do not see the reason to take both a ABO and seperate state board test, can someone explain why we can't have you sit the ABO and if you pass it then you are licensed, if not then you are not.
> I know of three opticians in Fl or had to take the ABO 4 TIMES before they could pass it, but they passed their state board on the first try. That does not give me much confidence in that states licensing board. I've looked at 2 AAS in Opticianry programs and neither of them had more or better training than what I recieved in my first year as an optician (lab and dispensing training), so you will excuse me if a AAS doesn't stack up to mean much to me. 
> 
> The person who mentioned the AAS with a dispensary..awesome...that is a great idea. BUT YOU should be getting your frame fitting and styling at the beginning of your training. Be on the floor as a frame stylist while you are learning theory. This way you still have constant supervision, you are not taking measurements but are observing correct measurements and you are building your customer service skills from the beginning. 
> 
> YOU WANT RESPECT??? Convince your doctors to treat you as a professional. Even if you have a degree, if your doctor doesn't see you as part of a holistic approach to eye health care then neither will the patient.  Also, quit acting as if you are the god of opticians, the arrogance that many patients encounter from "experienced" and "Licensed" opticians just makes them hate you. 
> We are a para health profession, we are not a health professional. 
> ...


Optometric Techs and CL Assistants? They are in the same boat as Opticians, and not true professionals, ergo the word tech in the title. They must be supervised by others, and do rote tasks verified by someone else. Opticians have at least some stand-alone capability. Pharmacists, ODs, Nurses, MDs.....those are true professions. NO ONE will respect you for your knowledge until you gain some formal credential to attest to it! Any field is judged by its least common denominator and, unfortunately, we are judged poorly because we require little to enter the field. We can remain as we are and be REPLACED by Opto-techs (which is happening more every day), or try to expand our scope and stand on our own. No one owes you a degree, but there are numerous colleges and universities that can help you achieve that goal. If what we do truly requires knowledge then the education MUST come prior to doing the work or it is of no real value. I am sorry you think so little of what you do, but it is your ilk that continues to drag this entire field backwards. We must improve or no longer be of value in the eye care delivery system. Most insurers do not allow us to participate, and most of the other Os have absolutely 0 respect for the field in general......all because most of it made up of poorly prepared folks who came into it by accident, or in you case desperation. 

Now to the Florida boards......that is baloney! Those boards are rigorous and maintain high standards for education and training. The ABO is a basic, minimal entry test. If someone took 4 tries then I truly pity them, because they have limited cognitive abilities and no one required them to learn anything prior to taking the exam. Apprentices are supposed to have supervisors helping train them, but studies indicate it is really only cheap OJT with little, if any, training taking place. At least they had to do some studying of some sort to get past this simplistic ABO exam, helping prepare them further for the Florida boards, which was the beginning thought on this 16-page thread. It takes 0 prep to take the ABO, and it still has a 52 % pass rate this year, if memory serves me correctly. That is nothing more than a cash cow for folks who are doing the certifying and needs to change. 

Lastly, you do not appear to understand licensing versus board certification. States issue licenses to assure professionals holding them can practice their profession without hurting someone. In your state, you only require a pulse, which indicates your state does not value what it is we do very highly. You are in the majority. Only 22 states have a licensing law. Board certification in most professions provides evidence of specialized knowledge about one sector of the overarching field, such as Ophthalmology. These highly specialized folks have a medical license, and then must also achieve board certification in order to specialize in their area of interest. In Opticianry, the certification is all we have in most of the jurisdictions. If your state wishes to institute a licensing law, it may very well use the ABO, but again certification is a national entity and licensure in a state issue. The only way to gain the respect of those states that do not license us now, is to gain an education and prove our worth.

I have made this argument enough on this thread. If you wish to join us in Atlanta to discuss the issues, please do. But, I am sure you probably will not because no one will buy you a plane ticket.........you obviously feel the field is not worthy of any of your own investment........it is just a job!

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## Fezz

> I have made this argument enough on this thread. If you wish to join us in Atlanta to discuss the issues, please do. But, I am sure you probably will not because no one will buy you a plane ticket.........you obviously feel the field is not worthy of any of your own investment........it is just a job!


 

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## Wes

I think there's been quite a lot of hurt feelings from the Entry Requirements thread.  Maybe it should have been titled: "Opticianry; so easy a caveman can do it."  Here's what I see.  Opticians (Optical Technicians)  are looked down on by the other "O" professions precisely because in most places there is no requirement whatsoever.  That is not a profession.  It is a job.  If we continue to allow anyone off the street to call themselves an optician then the title is worthless.  Some say we are not a healthcare profession, but I assert that many of us here believe otherwise and have demonstrated that skill and knowledge through higher degrees and advanced certification.  We want to make this profession something worth having.  In all honesty, it does annoy me that yesterday's burger flipper can call himself an optician today and the public can't distinguish him from me.  I have invested thousands of dollars and hours in my education, skillset, training and resources.  The burger flipper invested nothing, which is why I care much more for my profession, where it's headed, and what kind of people enter it and how they're trained.

Certainly not everyone chose this field.  I did.  Many others did as well.  Most did not.  Most stumbled onto it out of desperation for a paycheck, with zero investment in the field.  While many of us struggle to raise the bar, to improve our education, experience, and skillset so that we may increase the standards of the field, we are beset upon all sides with people entering the field looking to cash in on the zero entry requirement profession who constantly water it down and make it something not worthy of what I have invested.  I worked, educated myself and invested to earn the title optician, and then it's handed off to every burger flipper who can get hired at america's worst or lenscrazers.  We need something better.  

Were I to own my own shop, I wouldn't allow anyone on my sales floor until they had demonstrated competence in the lab to my satisfaction and had achieved at least basic certification.  To work unsupervised, my opticians would have to posess an opticianry A.A.S. or Advanced Certification from the ABO, and a state license. Sorry guys and gals, the basic ABO cert is just that: BASIC!  It was meant to be an entry level requirement, not the be-all, end-all of the opticians career.  Think about it.

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## Uilleann

As for the current state for CE...

If you look at the word: Continuing EDUCATION vs. the reality Continuing ADVERTISEMENTS...

There is little to zero actual education going on with 99% of the CE courses that are offered.  Probably because most are offered "free" on the sponsorship dime of any number of underlying companies.

I would bet that most of us can take an "hour" CE course in under five minutes, not read a single word of the article and still pass the end "exam" with a 93% or better - and BINGO!  We've just marched one CE closer to what exactly...re-certification??

It's disgusting!

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## Diane

> Apprentices are supposed to have supervisors helping train them, but studies indicate it is really only cheap OJT with little, if any, training taking place.


Interestingly enough, when I was president of the Opticians Association of Georgia, I worked to get a beginning requirement for Opticians as formal education.  I was able to garner enough support that the resolution was supported unamimously by the board of directors, and then it passed, unapposed by even one vote by the entire membership present, which were about 125 members at the meeting.  We started on a level that would begin formal registration as an apprentice...I went off as president, and it was taken up by other presidents.  It was introduced as a bill, which after much changing and watering down (just to get it passed) is only a registration and nothing more.  There is nothing in the statute which REQUIRES any type of specific training.  The ONLY thing the statute did was make it take longer to achieve the required hours in order to sit for the practical examination.  In addition, unless a person has registered by the now past date, their apprenticeship hours don't begin until their registration is received by the licensing board.  How much ado and expense about nothing with any teeth in it...?  In addition, how many acolades for achieving so little?  :(

Diane

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## Diane

> As for the current state for CE...
> 
> If you look at the word: Continuing EDUCATION vs. the reality Continuing ADVERTISEMENTS...
> 
> There is little to zero actual education going on with 99% of the CE courses that are offered. Probably because most are offered "free" on the sponsorship dime of any number of underlying companies.
> 
> I would bet that most of us can take an "hour" CE course in under five minutes, not read a single word of the article and still pass the end "exam" with a 93% or better - and BINGO! We've just marched one CE closer to what exactly...re-certification??
> 
> It's disgusting!


As an approved speaker, and I do a lot, part of what you say is correct...what I actually see is that some people come for continuing education and others come..."because I have to get my hours".  What in the heck does "I have to get my hours" mean?  I love it when I look out at an audience and people are actually taking notes and then they ask me questions both during and after.  In addition, I make myself available to my audiences via e-mail to request additional information.  What e-mails do I get???  Out of a possible 100 - 200 people in a technical course, I get ...tops... 1 - 3 people who take the time to ask for further information.  How sad is that?  When all we are concerned with are those slips of paper and not the knowledge that comes along with it, why should a CE be any more?  I would challenge US to demand more of *ourselves*, not the writers or the educators.  In addition, according to ABO/NCLE an hour of education consists of 50 minutes per hour.  How many folks are ready to bolt, when they watch their watches during even the most interesting topic.  BTW, I can get SOME knowledge out of even bad speakers, because I'm there for knowledge/education.  

Interenstingly enough, who takes the most notes and asks for the most information...not opticians...but paras and JCHAPO folks.  

Diane

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## Uilleann

Diane - you're assuming that most ABO certificate holders want to pay to attend a live speaker's course?  While I'm with you on this one, and I agree that if you really want the meat of a subject, that is where you'll find it.  But if you can get the "same thing" in a free course, offered online or via some trade rag, then of course the vast majority of "us" will likely do just that.  The "same thing" being of course that precious little blue slip of paper to send in to the ABO people.

The quality of those free courses tends to run poor at best IMHO, but I would be willing to bet it's where the vast majority of CE is being granted.  Just my thoughts.

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## Wes

Something to consider;  the ABO/NCLE accepts the free online CE courses, most state boards do not.  We, in SC, are required to attend a live, in-person, lecture given by an ABO/NCLE approved speaker.  I was in Litchfield on Pawley's Island this weekend for one such 5 hour CE put on by Mike Della Pesca and Lee Buffalo.  Diane has also been a presenter for SC opticians several times, most recently last May.  Diane is referencing those speaking engagements where she is the one putting on the CE...

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## Roy R. Ferguson

When posts from “opticians” proclaim with pride that they found a job and hung out until they could bend temples, measure PDs and guess at seg heights, I realize why, for the most part, the scope of practice for this field has remained unchanged for at least the past fifty plus years.  A professional knowledge base requires more than simply taking the ABO/NCLE/Practical until a minimum score is achieved, it requires core knowledge.  In order to absorb the level of skills necessary to function as a true health care professional, dedicated and lengthy education is necessary.  In other words, minimum educational standards must be embraced and adopted. 

Opposition to these goals comes not from the chain firms or Optometry.  Opposition comes from those who “stumbled onto it out of desperation for a paycheck, with zero investment in the field.”  These opticians are now in leadership positions and tend to be extremely hostile to education since it is viewed as a threat rather than advancement.

My support for minimum educational standards for opticians does not come from the fact that I possess an AAS in Opticianry for I do not.  Like most of you, I too came into this field an “apprentice.”  So when you argue that you have learned all you need to know on the job, I’m well aware of your background.  This awareness is why I advocate formal educational as an entry level requirement for all opticians.

Roy

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## Barry Santini

Whether I'm licensed, educated, registered, certified or not doesn't matter.
Whether I'm fitting Rx, or plano doesn't matter.

There's alot to learn know, master and use in ophthalmic dispensing, Rx or not.

I think its really all about knowledge, skills, and craft.

Lie I've said elsewhere, perhaps the time has come again for the guild to resurface. 

Yeah it's like a club. Members only. Initiation is knowledge and skill.

Our "own" requirements for membership. No legislation or laws needed.

The politcal and public sentiment climate of today does not view eyewear problems as containing risk of harm.

I'm done fighting that battle.

It seems that an alternative approach to determining standards, free of the law and the politics of educational requirements may have its day again soon.

John Gault 4 ever.

B

(wackin' the bee's nest again!)

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## Roy R. Ferguson

For just a moment I would like to address continuing education as presented to opticians.  Continuing education is grounded in the assumption that an audience has a common knowledge base and is there to explore a particular topic that expands that core.  By and large opticianry audiences lack that common background and tend to get lost when advanced subjects are discussed.  This doesnt mean those in attendance are somehow less intelligent or motivated than the population at large.  It simply means that they have never been exposed to the basic mechanics of the profession. 

As a speaker, this has been a problem Ive faced repeatedly over the years.  Humor and handouts seems to help.  In my experience humor keeps most awake until the disinterested can ditch the handouts.  I have yet to find a perfect solution.

Roy

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## Uilleann

Maddening ain't it Roy?!  :)

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## Wes

> Continuing education is grounded in the assumption that an audience has a common knowledge base and is there to explore a particular topic that expands that core. By and large opticianry audiences lack that common background and tend to get lost when advanced subjects are discussed. This doesn’t mean those in attendance are somehow less intelligent or motivated than the population at large. It simply means that they have never been exposed to the basic mechanics of the profession. 
> 
> Roy


I went to a CE seminar last weekend, and I found it challenging to follow the presentation for the Contact lens CE. It was very in-depth, in fact I'd say it was designed for optometrists and ophthalmologists that specialize in advanced gas-perm contact lens fitting. Suffice it to say that there were a LOT of blank faces in the audience.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

[QUOTE=Suffice it to say that there were a LOT of blank faces in the audience.[/QUOTE]

As both a teacher and speaker, I find blank faces to be frustrating.  One side of me wants to charge ahead while the other wants to back up and explain.  For the past several years I’ve attempted to use the first few minutes of the presentation to provide background information and build from there.  The idea is for the speaker to share information with the audience rather than dazzle them with their brilliance.  Lacking brilliance, I concentrate on keeping everyone awake and sharing information.  Life would be much easier if all opticians shared the same educational background.

Roy

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## Uilleann

Well, just having gone through the paces of an "education" doesn't guarantee any level of proficiency or intelligence.  If you have enough money, you can buy a diploma in just about any school, although it may take more years than normal.  Though, for the most part, I agree with your thoughts Roy.  Although some of the absolute DUMBEST people I've EVER met were Masters and PhD's.  :)  However, I do agree that the chances are much better in dealing with an intelligent human being when they have taken some form of university or other post-secondary education.

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## wmcdonald

You cannot "buy" a degree froom ANY legitimate institution, and although some feel the super rich may do just that, I have not seen it. To indicate that intelligence is not measured by matriculation at almost any educational institution is simply not correct. Only 5% of the population ever attain a PhD, and to say they are dumb is not accurate either. They are very intelligent people in a specific area. Some may lack common sense, and appear "dumb", but I can tell you they are not. To go through even an associate degree......which by the way is a unique thing to the US........is proof that a level of knowledge has been accomplished. There are some very intelligent folks without a degree, but remember, we are measured by our lowest common denominator, which is the focus of this thread, improving our lot. We either get an education or remain where we are.......it is that simple. Even a tree that does not grow eventually dies, and Opticianry continues to languish in mediocrity at best. It needs to change and education is the vehicle.

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## canaanlilli

Untrue. I care deeply about what I do. If I didn't I would not have stayed and learned what I have. I would not continually look for ways to better myself as an certified optician. I would not be working towards my AC, planning on obtainning my masters and furthering myself with plans for the NCLE.

I DO BELIEVE IN LICENSING
I DO BELIEVE REWORKING OR STARTING CERTIFICATION OVER.
I DO BELIEVE THE CURRENT CE SITUATION IN A FARCE
I DO BELIEVE IN EDUCATION. 
 We just don't believe in how to go about it.

I would love to come to Georgia, I would love to invest in my career, I would love to have someone help me figure out how to pursue licensing in my two states. 
I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START.
I am sorry you feel I am not worth your time, and that's fine. 

I will gladly take, polite, constructive information on how to help further my profession in my state.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

[QUOTE=canaanlilli;343052]I would love to come to Georgia, I would love to invest in my career, I would love to have someone help me figure out how to pursue licensing in my two states. 
I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START.QUOTE]

Many years ago my wife and I were having a glass of wine when the topic of education came up.  I said that I would love to go back to school and earn my BS but that I would be 40 by the time I graduated.  She (and you would have to know her to appreciate this) said you can turn 40 with a degree or without.  The choice is yours.  After that came the MA and PhD.  The bottom line is that if you never start, you never finish.  The choice is yours.

Roy

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## Optician1960

Canaanlilli
There are schools that will allow you the opportunity to earn your degree in ophthalmic science through internet and proctored learning, I am taking a guess based on your "middle of the US" location that you are probably not very close to a brick and mortar school. This website will help you get started: http://nfos.org/degrees.asp . While all of the 1st 5 schools are directed and served by reputable people, their are important differences in the way the classes and exams are delivered. That would include: cost, how oftern - or - if you ever have to personally visit the campus - or is it all distance education, does your state board - if licensed - accept the degree from the school you are selecting, will the school allow you to potentially earn life experience credits... 

Having my degree in Ophth. Science, I personally see the value in gaining the knowledge and skills I learned through the school. My practical application of those skills and becoming a strong optician came from the people I worked with and learned from during my in store experiences. It sounds like you have much of the instore experiences, and if you have the opportunity to combine it with the education, you will probably come off as more professional with your customers. Good luck...

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## canaanlilli

Roy and Optician1960,

I love the idea of further education.
I started college when I was 18, and then bec.  I am currently trying to finish my AA in general arts because I value education. I've travelled a long road to get to a point in my life where it is possible to do so now. 
I will definatly look at the website. 
Thank you for being polite and kind.:D

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## wmcdonald

> Untrue. I care deeply about what I do. If I didn't I would not have stayed and learned what I have. I would not continually look for ways to better myself as an certified optician. I would not be working towards my AC, planning on obtainning my masters and furthering myself with plans for the NCLE.
> 
> I DO BELIEVE IN LICENSING
> I DO BELIEVE REWORKING OR STARTING CERTIFICATION OVER.
> I DO BELIEVE THE CURRENT CE SITUATION IN A FARCE
> I DO BELIEVE IN EDUCATION. 
> We just don't believe in how to go about it.
> 
> I would love to come to Georgia, I would love to invest in my career, I would love to have someone help me figure out how to pursue licensing in my two states. 
> ...


Polite? It appears that anyone who disagrees with you is impolite, but I sense you may be getting it. I do not believe we are incapable of improving.......I have done the research. I know where this field not only wants to go, but needs to go. You may not understand, we are trying to help you and those who come behind you. You and folks like you are the reason we struggle, both individually and collectively. It is not you we are complaining about personally........it is the system that has mislead you, and it is difficult to separate those two. Dr. Feguson and I and many others have tried to help improve our collective lot for many years, and still continue. I dearly would love to have you come to Atlanta, and I do have the time. Do not get it yet? I and others are doing our best to help. Change is often difficult and painful, but it can happen and we will be better for it. Come join the meeting. It will cost you little, and may provide you with some indication of where your state needs to go. I can promise you it will become clearer as we move forward. But I iwll tell you, education must come at the front end, not as an afterthought. That does not mean you have to returen to college......it means that those who come behind you will. If you still do not agree with that, we never will. We will only gain respect for ourselves with a formal education requirement. Now, I have invited you personally. Lets see if you can put your money where your mouth is. It is eay to sit there and type, but a differnet story when you come face-to-face. Something tells me you may just be able to handle it, and once you get here, may even agree with us! If you are serious about improvement, come be with us. You will be glad you did, and not think so harshly of us when you leave. I do hope you come.

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## canaanlilli

I never said i didn't agree with formal education, I have said it is neccessary. I just don't agree with the order you want to do it in. Fine. I get it. I was upset that you we didn't agree, what upset me is that you didn't seem to want to hear my opinion. I was perfectly willing to listen to yours. 
I'll see if I can arrange my budget to come down there, it might make a nice getaway for my hubby and I.

Now, can we move on and let the past be the past?
I think we may both be very passionate and been blinded by that passion and not fully seen eachothers ideas. 
I am truly sorry if I offended you at some point, that is the problem with discussion boards is that we can not hear each others tone of voice when we speak to eachother, so we  have no real way of knowing if we are being  attacking or what not...
Plus...I probably shouldn't of joined in on a week I was writing 2 research papers, 1 persuasive speach, and doing inventory...sorry.

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## Wes

Canaan, I think the point we're trying to make, is this: you don't get to "try out" any other healthcare profession for six months, and guinea pig your patients to see if you like it. Right now, that's what we do in this field, and is precisely why we're percieved so poorly by other healthcare professions. Right now it is set up so that literally anyone, even the proverbial caveman can do it. No wonder we get no respect. Others don't know if you're the Master Optician, or the caveman unless you can show education, certification, and licensure, and that must come first. It must come always, otherwise as a collective, we're a bunch of cavemen. (Nice name for a band, that. The Collective Cavemen...)

It's not just a disagreement with you. It's an entirely different philosophy. We're protesting the method of entry that you advocate. We are not, however, protesting you. 

We will never see eye to eye on this unless you change your position to ours. We will not be changing the way we see this because we want to elevate the group as a whole. We do not want this to be the last resort for someone with no education to get a semi-professional job based on the reputation of fully educated, trained, and certified opticians who can truly live up to all aspects of the name OPTICIAN. 

You CAN NOT tell me that someone fresh off the street calling himself an optician can remotely compare with another person fresh from school with her AAS in Opticianry. See the difference? To us, the fresh faced kid with the AAS in Opticianry is ready to begin learning the real world of opticianry; the kid off the street is not. Also of note, the kid with the new AAS is not comparable to the old guys that've been doing this for many many years. The opticians currently in the field are not what we're addressing, its the ones coming into the field in the future that we want to elevate. And by doing so with them, perhaps so for all of us as a group.

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## wmcdonald

You did not offend me at all, because the issue is not a personal one to me. I have been trying to change people's minds for many years, and I think we are gaining ground. However, if you think education can come after you enter the field we will never agree, and you are then my adversary. You are attempting to complete an AA degree, and I applaud you, but for the field to become a legitimate profession, education can no longer come after entry. Is the knowledge, skills and abilities of an Optician not sufficient to demand better education? In the lectures I do all over America, China, Canada, and Mexico, I see poorly prepared folks who do not even know basic optics. It is not that I do not want to hear your opinion (believe me I have), I am attempting to convince you that you are absolutely wrong, and I have heard it at least 10000 times before! It amazes me that high school-educated folks want to still agrue whether or not this field needs to be educated. I am a full, tenured professor with a PhD degree, and post-graduate training at Harvard. Dr. Ferguson also holds the PhD, and has taught at many institutions, and what amazes me even more is that we continue to carry on this debate with folks who get offended at our efforts to help them improve! I often get frustrated and think.....to hell with these folks! But htis is where I started, and I want it to be better when I leave. It has not improved, but gone slowly down hill for 20 years now. If you cannot see the field is slowly dying, then stay in your own little world of OJT. I heard your argument, and it holds no water. If we are to be advanced tradespeople, then by all means, stick with apprenticeship and do what it is you wish. Soon we will be obsolete and the techs will do our jobs from the docs office. It is almost there now. Just remember, you usually reach the height you seek. I want more for the field in which I started. I hope you will join me and get over the personal issue. It is not about you. Come join us and you will see what we mean.

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## canaanlilli

So, I will not make it that weekend. It is my weekend to work and I can not get it off. I do want to know what is discussed and any ideas for the future. If anyone would be willing to keep me informed on those things I would greatly appreciate it.

On another note, I have been trying to figure out how I can move my two states forward in the licensing. I honestly do not know where to start.
thanks wonderful gurus of optiboard....:D

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## Fezz

> On another note, I have been trying to figure out how I can move my two states forward in the licensing. I honestly do not know where to start.
> thanks wonderful gurus of optiboard....:D


I suggest that you forget about licensing! It will never happen and is a wasted endeavor in my not so humble opinion!

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## kcount

> Whether I'm licensed, educated, registered, certified or not doesn't matter.
> Whether I'm fitting Rx, or plano doesn't matter.
> 
> There's alot to learn know, master and use in ophthalmic dispensing, Rx or not.
> 
> I think its really all about knowledge, skills, and craft.
> 
> Lie I've said elsewhere, perhaps the time has come again for the guild to resurface. 
> 
> ...


I'll second the revival of The Guild.

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## YrahG

Two new points I want to share:

1) Revival of the Guild:

I don't want it don't need it.  They are under the thumb of the OAA and for far to long have died on the vine, let the crap they have become fertilize the future.

2) Let them try it out:

I find it interesting that the same person who advocates the "let them try it out" approach (which btw is how things are currently done) is also wondering how to advance their profession.

I agree with Warren and think that a key phrase pretty much summed it up, "educational institutions are not selling degrees" no need to reinvent the wheel no need to put faith in another organization or approach.  The ABO and NCLE started with good intentions but they are what they are now, licensing started with good intentions, but even they are lacking.  Schools institutions of higher learning are already monitored and held to stringent standards, a degree ensures a level playing field anything else is trying to emulate the degree route and garner respect.  We are not going to convince employers to pay for education, we are not going to convince anyone to do anything.  The only control we have is over ourselves, I already am a better optician than many in my state and many on this board and many on this thread.  My intentions with that statement are meant to offend, (more text here that I can't remember and hjilson deleted)

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## YrahG

> Last  edited by hcjilson; 05-01-2010 at 09:22 PM. 					 					 						Reason: Deleted gutter lanquage-YrahG  should clean up his/her act- It wears thin quickly


A simple explanation without your opinion would suffice also the way in which you changed the post also changed the meaning, from your past threads I see this is a trend with you, and sorry for wasting your time.

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## DragonLensmanWV

Interesting that you are so much superior to everyone else here. Any proof?

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## Uilleann

I will disagree with the statement that "education levels the playing field".  While, in a perfect world, I would like to believe this could be the reality - sadly, in our imperfect world, a degree from any given post secondary learning institution is in no way shape or form guaranteed to be "the same" as another.  While it might be more accurate to state that a given degree program could likely lessen the possible disparity of knowledge and skill amongst entry opticians in the future, I believe putting 100% blind trust in that as a perfect fail safe will leave us disappointed.  At the end of the day, the same level of "garbage in - garbage out" applies to university as it does to ABO, or state licensure.  An unmotivated student is still unmotivated - and may perhaps choose opticianry in university for the same reasons a Mctician chooses it now...hoping for the "easy" degree or job option.  Here's to the hope that this wouldn't be the case...

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## kcount

> Interesting that you are so much superior to everyone else here. Any proof?


Had his/her post edited by someone else... I never had that.  One up on me.

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## Ginster

It's good to see all of us in this discussion, It gives me hopethat one day Texas will be a lisienced state.

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## YrahG

> Interesting that you are so much superior to everyone else here. Any proof?


Give me a question you think I can't answer?

You have clearly stated that you don't have any education or certification, matter of fact this thread is prompting you to go out and get an ABO certification, with this knowledge I can easily answer "why would I give a novice any proof". Would I be wrong? Would you be offended? Would I care? There is no measuring stick for an optician so how do you answer that question intelligently. I am hoping that this thread is a means to that, but what keeps coming up is:

"Is this going to be a national licensing effort" (Go back and count how many times that same question has come up, I would like to think I am more intelligent than those people at least)

"I agree with education but ..." (Go back and count the number of posts that started that way. Also count how many of these folks have been offended along the way through the thread. That's why I say if you don't have the education or the desire to get one, then you are only holding the rest back. I understand they don't think they are holding the rest back but none the less I have seen Warren explain himself multiple times on a very simple subject, I have seen Roy explain multiple times, when does it end? I think it will end when those that are above it will just say, "you know what I don't care if you get offended". Heck how many more years do I have to be offended before some of these mcticians stop calling themselves opticians?  Now hopefully these inferior opticians get it, I want them to stop calling themselves opticians or I am looking for something else to call myself.)

Now to your original question, pick a subject that you know well and in 1 week present a paper on that subject in APA format. Let the board grade the papers and make the decision. It will not show if I am more superior but it will show if I am a better optician. What shows that I am more superior than you is your tell, I never said superior you did so somewhere in your psyche you believe it could be true, thank you for that.

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## YrahG

> I will disagree with the statement that "education levels the playing field". While, in a perfect world, I would like to believe this could be the reality - sadly, in our imperfect world, a degree from any given post secondary learning institution is in no way shape or form guaranteed to be "the same" as another. While it might be more accurate to state that a given degree program could likely lessen the possible disparity of knowledge and skill amongst entry opticians in the future, I believe putting 100% blind trust in that as a perfect fail safe will leave us disappointed. At the end of the day, the same level of "garbage in - garbage out" applies to university as it does to ABO, or state licensure. An unmotivated student is still unmotivated - and may perhaps choose opticianry in university for the same reasons a Mctician chooses it now...hoping for the "easy" degree or job option. Here's to the hope that this wouldn't be the case...


Dragon you could count this as +1 for "I agree with education but ...", the ABO is the LCD (Least Common Denominator) in this field now, matter of fact I should clarify that by saying it is the LCD amoung paper holding opticians.  An AAS takes 2 years and 60 credits, that's better than 1 test.  This guy want's to be part of the change but is already looking for flaws in the new system, he does not have the educational component so although he says yes education is good he has no vested interest.

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## DragonLensmanWV

> Give me a question you think I can't answer?
> 
> You have clearly stated that you don't have any education or certification, matter of fact this thread is prompting you to go out and get an ABO certification, with this knowledge I can easily answer "why would I give a novice any proof". Would I be wrong? Would you be offended? Would I care? There is no measuring stick for an optician so how do you answer that question intelligently. I am hoping that this thread is a means to that, but what keeps coming up is:
> 
> "Is this going to be a national licensing effort" (Go back and count how many times that same question has come up, I would like to think I am more intelligent than those people at least)
> 
> "I agree with education but ..." (Go back and count the number of posts that started that way. Also count how many of these folks have been offended along the way through the thread. That's why I say if you don't have the education or the desire to get one, then you are only holding the rest back. I understand they don't think they are holding the rest back but none the less I have seen Warren explain himself multiple times on a very simple subject, I have seen Roy explain multiple times, when does it end? I think it will end when those that are above it will just say, "you know what I don't care if you get offended". Heck how many more years do I have to be offended before some of these mcticians stop calling themselves opticians?  Now hopefully these inferior opticians get it, I want them to stop calling themselves opticians or I am looking for something else to call myself.)
> 
> Now to your original question, pick a subject that you know well and in 1 week present a paper on that subject in APA format. Let the board grade the papers and make the decision. It will not show if I am more superior but it will show if I am a better optician. What shows that I am more superior than you is your tell, I never said superior you did so somewhere in your psyche you believe it could be true, thank you for that.


Sorry, I misunderstood your post.
 "I already am a better optician than many in my state and many on this  board and many on this thread." - your statement.

I apologize for substituting "superior" for "better". And I have nothing to prove to you, nor do I pretend to be a "better" optician than anyone else here. I'm sure you're more capable than me in some things, but others, not so much.

And, at my age the last thing I'm going to do is go back to college for two or more years. And you have convinced me the ABO is a useless certification, so I will continue to McTician and I hope it irritates you to find someone as ill-educated as me is so successful.

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## wmcdonald

> I will disagree with the statement that "education levels the playing field". While, in a perfect world, I would like to believe this could be the reality - sadly, in our imperfect world, a degree from any given post secondary learning institution is in no way shape or form guaranteed to be "the same" as another. While it might be more accurate to state that a given degree program could likely lessen the possible disparity of knowledge and skill amongst entry opticians in the future, I believe putting 100% blind trust in that as a perfect fail safe will leave us disappointed. At the end of the day, the same level of "garbage in - garbage out" applies to university as it does to ABO, or state licensure. An unmotivated student is still unmotivated - and may perhaps choose opticianry in university for the same reasons a Mctician chooses it now...hoping for the "easy" degree or job option. Here's to the hope that this wouldn't be the case...


What other vehicle is there? You readily add the negative bit offer not other vehicle, beacuse ther is none! Folks who go through a university program, or even these technical colleges we use in Opticianry, at least have a proven level of knowledge as evidenced by their degree. What do those with NO credential have to show? Most of the "apprentices" here and around the country get 0 education and/or training. They will shout to the rooftops about their vast kowledge, but have NO way of proving it to the outside world. Any degree, while not exact, should follow a curriculum that mirrors what the professions feels is needed to be a competent professional, and culminate in that very valuable degree to prove their worth. Now someone will loudly tell those who read this that they have hired 100s of degree-holders who could not run their edger. But think about this, these degree holders have a theoretical base most apprentices are now even aware exists. Apprentices are trained to rotely take PDs, measure seg heights, and write receipts. Thats not my idea of a professional Optician, no matter how much they sell! But one thing is for sure, until we gain an education, we will continue to have little to no respect, and never expand into more than we are today. Education may be the vehicle to use to level the field because it will alloow for expansion of our scope. Education is the key to our future, if it is not too late. There will always be somebody called an Optician, but the role they play can be de=irected by those within, ot those outside the profession. I for one like the self-directed concept others enjoy. Education is the tool to allow for that self-direction.

I always wonder at why we continue this debate. It appears to be a cause worth fighting, but is is certainly tiring!

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## wmcdonald

> Sorry, I misunderstood your post.
> "I already am a better optician than many in my state and many on this board and many on this thread." - your statement.
> 
> I apologize for substituting "superior" for "better". And I have nothing to prove to you, nor do I pretend to be a "better" optician than anyone else here. I'm sure you're more capable than me in some things, but others, not so much.
> 
> And, at my age the last thing I'm going to do is go back to college for two or more years. And you have convinced me the ABO is a useless certification, so I will continue to McTician and I hope it irritates you to find someone as ill-educated as me is so successful.


Let me state one more time for those who have difficulty comprehending what we are attempting to accomplish.......NO ONE IS SUGGESTING YOU GO BACK TO SCHOOL! While it would not hurt anybody, it is not possible for many in the field. We are suggesting that the way to improve the profession is for us to start implementing increasingly more rigorous standards for those who wish to become Opticians in the future. This has been stated multiple times by multiple people on this very thread. Please give that some consideration, and you will find that is is not a threat to you or anyone else, and will make the profession stronger for future generations. Not improving standards hurts everyone. It is time we recognize that fact, and build for the future. Please join us in this important initiative. 

Last time........I know this is controversial, and makes many uncomfortable. It is not personal, and should not be perceived that way. The system has failed you, and it is not your fault. You did what was required, whcih isn many states is nothing. But if you take pride in being an Optician, consider our efforts. We must improve and increasing the requirements will do nothing less than lift all boats, including yours!

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## Refractingoptician.com

> Let me state one more time for those who have difficulty comprehending what we are attempting to accomplish.......NO ONE IS SUGGESTING YOU GO BACK TO SCHOOL! While it would not hurt anybody, it is not possible for many in the field. We are suggesting that the way to improve the profession is for us to start implementing increasingly more rigorous standards for those who wish to become Opticians in the future. This has been stated multiple times by multiple people on this very thread. Please give that some consideration, and you will find that is is not a threat to you or anyone else, and will make the profession stronger for future generations. Not improving standards hurts everyone. It is time we recognize that fact, and build for the future. Please join us in this important initiative. 
> 
> Last time........I know this is controversial, and makes many uncomfortable. It is not personal, and should not be perceived that way. The system has failed you, and it is not your fault. You did what was required, whcih isn many states is nothing. But if you take pride in being an Optician, consider our efforts. We must improve and increasing the requirements will do nothing less than lift all boats, including yours!


Mr McDonald is right about lifting the standards, in Ontario and BC and other parts of the country they lowered standards and it is a bad thing . Raising standards is the right thing .

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## Fezz

I have grown more and more discouraged as this thread continues on. I see that we can not get basic points across to many on here, we seem to go around in never ending circles, keep repeating the same things over and over, and a the few basics that have been discussed never seem to sink in.

Cripes sake, if we can't get those that come to Optiboard...onboard, we are doomed! 

Why bother?

Those of us that are trying to make a difference have busy lives and better things to do with our time and money. If we stumble and beat our heads against the wall at this point.......................we will all go insane trying to make a difference to the masses.

UGH......................!!!

----------


## YrahG

> Sorry, I misunderstood your post.
> "I already am a better optician than many in my state and many on this board and many on this thread." - your statement.
> 
> I apologize for substituting "superior" for "better". And I have nothing to prove to you, nor do I pretend to be a "better" optician than anyone else here. I'm sure you're more capable than me in some things, but others, not so much.
> 
> And, at my age the last thing I'm going to do is go back to college for two or more years. And you have convinced me the ABO is a useless certification, so I will continue to McTician and I hope it irritates you to find someone as ill-educated as me is so successful.


I know you are more capable then a mctician.  I have actually seen your work and know that you have the SKILLS necessary to call your self a great optician, but you lack the education and therefore confidence.  That's why I can make a challenge that gives you the pick of the subject and still feel confident that your lack of education will have you doubt your writting skills.  I feel confident in my writing to make that challenge, this is one of the SKILLS I picked up in school.  There are many others and the best one of all is confidence.  I am the best because I was taught by the best in our profession and have access to the best minds in this profession.

The part that irritates me: _"I hope it irritates you to find someone as ill-educated as me is so successful."_

You are successful despite being ill-educated.  Others are not as fortunate and this field has degraded to what it is now and will further degrade if you and your ilk continue to promote "you can be successful without an education."  It is very rare and very few that are in your position, the majority are mcticians.  An education ensures a higher percentage of success.  So if you truly feel that success for future opticians is the goal then how could education not be a part of the equation.  Education ensures that you have all the necessary knowledge to competently start in this carreer, teh ABO ensures that you have a certification and the leaders of the OAA can have another mai thai on you next meeting.  Save your money and apply it towards something better, why not take a course at your local community college you can often audit courses for less money and no credit and you will get more out of it then the ABO.

----------


## Johns

> I see that we can not get basic points across to many on here, we seem to go around in never ending circles, keep repeating the same things over and over, and a the few basics that have been discussed never seem to sink in.



Man, you're not kidding!  I was thinking the same thing.  It doesn't matter which page number you hit, they're all starting to blur together.  

I'm thinking that the idea that came up at UnExpo, although self-serving and purely profit driven, might be the way to go...

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

> Let me state one more time for those who have difficulty comprehending what we are attempting to accomplish.......NO ONE IS SUGGESTING YOU GO BACK TO SCHOOL! While it would not hurt anybody, it is not possible for many in the field. We are suggesting that the way to improve the profession is for us to start implementing increasingly more rigorous standards for those who wish to become Opticians in the future. This has been stated multiple times by multiple people on this very thread. Please give that some consideration, and you will find that is is not a threat to you or anyone else, and will make the profession stronger for future generations. Not improving standards hurts everyone. It is time we recognize that fact, and build for the future. Please join us in this important initiative. 
> 
> Last time........I know this is controversial, and makes many uncomfortable. It is not personal, and should not be perceived that way. The system has failed you, and it is not your fault. You did what was required, whcih isn many states is nothing. But if you take pride in being an Optician, consider our efforts. We must improve and increasing the requirements will do nothing less than lift all boats, including yours!



Oh, I understand you perfectly and I do agree with you. I gleaned all that from just the first few pages. I always read your ECP columns (hope you've read mine) and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and Roy, and indeed most all others here on OB. I think what you are trying to accomplish is a good goal but getting each state to agree to similar standards will be the hard part. I do hope you will be able to accomplish that goal, even getting all the states to agree to licensing would be a huge gain.  25 years ago or so, we formed an Opticians Society here with the goal being state licensing. We talked to a few legislators, and I believe at that time we had received assurances from KY and OH that they would recognize reciprocity with us vis-a-vis license. Then optical forces with greater political clout than ours got wind of it and killed any chance of it going through. Then everyone got sick of paying dues to the organization that ended up doing nothing more than collecting dues and it, too fell apart. So here we are later, still no license and none on the horizon, unless your movement can pick up momentum and actually accomplish what we could not do. Having you heavy hitters onboard should help a lot!

----------


## YrahG

> I have grown more and more discouraged as this thread continues on. I see that we can not get basic points across to many on here, we seem to go around in never ending circles, keep repeating the same things over and over, and a the few basics that have been discussed never seem to sink in.
> 
> Cripes sake, if we can't get those that come to Optiboard...onboard, we are doomed! 
> 
> Why bother?
> 
> Those of us that are trying to make a difference have busy lives and better things to do with our time and money. If we stumble and beat our heads against the wall at this point.......................we will all go insane trying to make a difference to the masses.
> 
> UGH......................!!!


Again I might offend by saying this but your right why are we beating our heads against a wall trying to convince the masses?  I don't want to be part of the masses when the masses are so weak.  Take it for what it's worth, but those that are above will rise and those that are not should be left behind, everyone has avenues.  I did not like oodles and noodles through college or bussing tables but I did what I had to do.  The masses won't pay back my loans and I will not wait for the masses to make my situation better.  If the enemy is within us, then why not fracture our profession now.  Draw a line in the sand and let everyone decide, their choice.  If 100 people show up and only 10 follow through what good was having 100 people.  If 10 show up and the rest get offended, then we have a party.  I think quality over quantity is going to be key in anything so why not set that impression from the start.

I appreciate the fact that Warren wants to include everyone but I am not as optimistic, can we really include everyone?

----------


## wmcdonald

> Oh, I understand you perfectly and I do agree with you. I gleaned all that from just the first few pages. I always read your ECP columns (hope you've read mine) and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and Roy, and indeed most all others here on OB. I think what you are trying to accomplish is a good goal but getting each state to agree to similar standards will be the hard part. I do hope you will be able to accomplish that goal, even getting all the states to agree to licensing would be a huge gain. 25 years ago or so, we formed an Opticians Society here with the goal being state licensing. We talked to a few legislators, and I believe at that time we had received assurances from KY and OH that they would recognize reciprocity with us vis-a-vis license. Then optical forces with greater political clout than ours got wind of it and killed any chance of it going through. Then everyone got sick of paying dues to the organization that ended up doing nothing more than collecting dues and it, too fell apart. So here we are later, still no license and none on the horizon, unless your movement can pick up momentum and actually accomplish what we could not do. Having you heavy hitters onboard should help a lot!


I am sure I read your articles, as I read them all, but your name and location here are not clear. Again, we are not looking to licensure. We are looking in a bit different direction. We seek to establish a new category........based on credentials......much like the CPA. Anyone can do public accounting, but the CPA stands above the rest. That is the initial goal, to establish a higher level of practitioner. We would then be able to differentiate ourselves above the rest, eventually allowing the expansion of scope for those with these expanded credentials. Licensure as we now exist is needed, but will take time. The way we are attempting to drive this boat will eliminate the state issue completely, at least at first. When we develop a national add campaign touting the services of our new and expandsed super-Optician, others will want to join us in these efforts. As salaries rise, others will see value. It will allow those who want to remain in the dispensing Optician role, to do so, and the others (Ophthalmic Optician is the title used in the UK) will be able to move ahead into new areas of service.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Again I might offend by saying this but your right why are we beating our heads against a wall trying to convince the masses? I don't want to be part of the masses when the masses are so weak. Take it for what it's worth, but those that are above will rise and those that are not should be left behind, everyone has avenues. I did not like oodles and noodles through college or bussing tables but I did what I had to do. The masses won't pay back my loans and I will not wait for the masses to make my situation better. If the enemy is within us, then why not fracture our profession now. Draw a line in the sand and let everyone decide, their choice. If 100 people show up and only 10 follow through what good was having 100 people. If 10 show up and the rest get offended, then we have a party. I think quality over quantity is going to be key in anything so why not set that impression from the start.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that Warren wants to include everyone but I am not as optimistic, can we really include everyone?


We continue because we must. We must attempt to salvage this profession.....to bring it from the depths it has now sunk! Why, because it is our roots, and we want it to improve and regain its glory. I may not see it in my lifetime, but I am determinded to make a difference. It will NOT include everyone, however. Far from it. It will take some work to gain the regognition we seek to establish, which will become clear in Atlanta, and in my upcoming ECP article. Join us......we need your help.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Man, you're not kidding! I was thinking the same thing. It doesn't matter which page number you hit, they're all starting to blur together. 
> 
> I'm thinking that the idea that came up at UnExpo, although self-serving and purely profit driven, might be the way to go...


Believe it or not, it is actually better than it used to be. As evidence, this thread is 17 pages, and nearly 14 thousand people have seen it. We are making a difference, if we do no more than make folks think. Dr. Ferguson and I have sung these songs for nearly 30 years, and just seeing some headway. We justmay be on to something! Hang in there.

----------


## YrahG

Licensing is easy to get:

Offer your legislators more money than your opponent.

Playing on a different field now that's priceless. Why try to get all the states to agree on a minimum requirement, take their minimum requirement and add something to it and you have just ensured that they can't deny your requirements.

Alaska = ABO and NCLE
Arizona = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
California = ABO and NCLE
Connecticut = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
Florida = ABO, NCLE, and state exam
Georgia = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
Hawaii = ABO and NCLE
Kentucky = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
Massachusetts = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
Nevada = ABO, NCLE, and state exam
New Hampshire = Fee
New Jersey = State exam
New York = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
North Carolina = ABO, NCLE, and state exam
Ohio = ABO and NCLE
Rhode Island = ABO and state practical
South Carolina = ABO and state exam
Tennessee = ABO, NCLE, and state exam
Vermont = ABO
Virginia = ABO, NCLE, and state practical
Washington = State practical

So the commonalities among the various states is ABO and NCLE, make that a requirement of the new organization. Then most of them have apprenticeships or educational components. All the apprenticeships are different and require different hings in one way or another so to have a national apprenticeship standard would be difficult. The education some states say NFOS schools some say COA accredited schools. Since all the COA schools are NFOS school then then requiring a degree from a COA school would meet the requirements for all the states. Practicals are not going to be changed and getting anyone to agree on a standard practical is not going to happen. So the new organization require that you have:

ABO
NCLE
AAS from a COA accredited school

Done now you have a national license minus each states practical examination. Everyone wants to look at how we can lower the standards even further and get everyone to agree. You don't need any agreement to go harder than is required. If this could get introduced into the COA school as a means of getting a higher credential which could allow you to license easily in all licensed states. Then it could gain traction and then become the best route for many.

----------


## Wes

Doc, far be it from me to disagree with you but I'd bet its more like fourteen people have seen it a thousand times each.

Johns, fill me in. Whatd I miss?

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## hcjilson

In the list above, unless NC has changed its regulations, ABO and NCLE are required. Also, the states not listing NCLE as a requirement  fitting contacts by opticians is not allowed.(I find that hard to reconcile in as much as they were invented by opticians.

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## Fezz

> Doc, far be it from me to disagree with you but I'd bet its more like fourteen people have seen it a thousand times each.


You are on the right track Bro!

I've checked in to see it 3215 times!

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## kcount

Ultimately the crew that shows up in ATL will probably look very much like the un-expo attendee/invitee list.

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## kcount

> In the list above, unless NC has changed its regulations, ABO and NCLE are required. Also, the states not listing NCLE as a requirement fitting contacts by opticians is not allowed.(I find that hard to reconcile in as much as they were invented by opticians.


As were the phoropters.

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## YrahG

> In the list above, unless NC has changed its regulations, ABO and NCLE are required. Also, the states not listing NCLE as a requirement fitting contacts by opticians is not allowed.(I find that hard to reconcile in as much as they were invented by opticians.


I've corrected it, the point remains the same.

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## Fezz

> Ultimately the crew that shows up in ATL will probably look very much like the un-expo attendee/invitee list.


Not exactly.

Many of the folks attending in ATL are attending because they are there for the SEOC convention. Some of those attending are speakers for that event. They are there regardless whether we meet or not.

----------


## kcount

> Not exactley.
> 
> Many of the folks attending in ATL are attending because they are there for the SECO convention. Some of those attending are speakers for that event. They are there regardless whether we meet or not.


I mean from this thread/discussion.

----------


## Fezz

> I mean from this thread/discussion.



Like I said, not exactly!

----------


## HarryChiling

> I mean from this thread/discussion.


Those that attend the Un Expo are a different bread, the event is specifically held at a date and location away from any other event. This is done to ensure that all who attend have their undivided attention on the sole event of improveing their businesses, supporting vendors that have the same interests in mind, and drinking the finest beers.

No other event will ever come close, even with the same group of attendees at another event it will never be the same. Matter of fact if I told you what happened at the Un Expo I woud have to kill you, or be killed by the FezzJohns goon squad (and yes they really exist).

When is Steve gonna put the pocorn smiley in the emoticons 'cause this thread is getting good.

----------


## kcount

> Those that attend the Un Expo are a different bread, the event is specifically held at a date and location away from any other event. This is done to ensure that all who attend have their undivided attention on the sole event of improveing their businesses, supporting vendors that have the same interests in mind, and drinking the finest beers.
> 
> No other event will ever come close, even with the same group of attendees at another event it will never be the same. Matter of fact if I told you what happened at the Un Expo I woud have to kill you, or be killed by the FezzJohns goon squad (and yes they really exist).
> 
> When is Steve gonna put the pocorn smiley in the emoticons 'cause this thread is getting good.


Not a worry, we dont want to get you in trouble with the goon squad.  I think I'll need to make sure I get my fanny to next years un-expo so I can learn the super secret hand shake.

----------


## Johns

> Like I said, not exactly!


I agree.  Most of the unexpo attendees are not so concerned about the formalities of opticianry, but more with the nitty -gritty, hands-on, and business aspects of it.  You won't find a more dedicated bunch.  Like Fezz said, they/we are there ONLY for the reason of the UnExpo, which is why we won't have it in conjunction w/another event.

----------


## kcount

> I agree. Most of the unexpo attendees are not so concerned about the formalities of opticianry, but more with the nitty -gritty, hands-on, and business aspects of it. You won't find a more dedicated bunch. Like Fezz said, they/we are there ONLY for the reason of the UnExpo, which is why we won't have it in conjunction w/another event.


Then I definately need to show up. I would love to have those conversations.

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## wmcdonald

> Doc, far be it from me to disagree with you but I'd bet its more like fourteen people have seen it a thousand times each.
> 
> Johns, fill me in. Whatd I miss?


You are probably right, most have been reviewed many times by the same folks, but even that is a sizable number. I stand corrected!

----------


## wmcdonald

> In the list above, unless NC has changed its regulations, ABO and NCLE are required. Also, the states not listing NCLE as a requirement fitting contacts by opticians is not allowed.(I find that hard to reconcile in as much as they were invented by opticians.


Harry, NC does not require the NCLE/ABO, but will substitute parts of the licensing exam if the applicant successfully passes them.

Warren

----------


## Now I See

> Then I definately need to show up. I would love to have those conversations.


Best conversations ever!! :D

----------


## Uilleann

> Dragon you could count this as +1 for "I agree with education but ...", the ABO is the LCD (Least Common Denominator) in this field now, matter of fact I should clarify that by saying it is the LCD amoung paper holding opticians.  An AAS takes 2 years and 60 credits, that's better than 1 test.  This guy want's to be part of the change but is already looking for flaws in the new system, he does not have the educational component so although he says yes education is good he has no vested interest.


Do you always rush to speak out of your southern orifice?  You *still* have no idea what my educational or professional background or experience truly is - and that's just fine with me.  Added to that - you've completely missed the point of my statement you quoted.  Is this the reading comprehension skill set an AAS degree gave you?  Try again, and play nice.  ;)

----------


## YrahG

> Do you always rush to speak out of your southern orifice? You *still* have no idea what my educational or professional background or experience truly is - and that's just fine with me. Added to that - you've completely missed the point of my statement you quoted. Is this the reading comprehension skill set an AAS degree gave you? Try again, and play nice. ;)


Oh he who speaks with forked tongue, I will try again:




> 2. Education.
> 
> This is a given. I have no formal college/university degree, but it doesn't mean I haven't spent a good deal of time in a classroom post H.S. Would I love to do more? Absolutely! Can I afford it? (on what even a managing optician makes, with a family and most typical adult responsibilities...not even close.) This *SHOULD* be easier to get than it is right now, and folks - tuition ain't getting a penny cheaper; online or b&m doesn't matter. Education comes at a premium right now, and that means it is simply out of reach of many who could, I will personally guess, make outstanding opticians with the proper training.


You say yourself that you have "no formal college/university degree", the reason I said you have no vested interest.




> I believe this fight goes well beyond establishing a minimum educational requirement - as a given degree program will vary in its efficacy and scope as much as the posters do on these forums. So to exhibit a minimum competency should be a requirement in my mind - not just a piece of paper stating a degree of study. I think that while everyone can benefit from a quality education, that to put major emphasis there is potentially barking up the wrong tree.


I distill all this down to "I agree with education but ..." fill in the but with whatever you like but you don't agree completely with education.




> I have never "questioned the value" of education. You are 100% incorrect in making that claim. I do question the absolute admission of any given degree as the end all, be all for the advancement of opticianry. A degree can be had many different ways in today's society, and degree A does NOT mean it is identical to degree B - even if on paper, they say the same thing. This has always been the case. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> You can no more assume that any given individual did any of the things you describe here just because they have this degree or that 'under their belt', than you can divine the weather by reading the pattern in your old tea leaves. The blanket assumptions of what makes an individual "qualified" to perform a given task set based solely on a general degree seems to be at best reckless and destructive to our cause. You don't have to teach to comprehend the value of a teacher...or to spot a bad one. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> Again, I will state that I don't believe there is a single member of these boards who finds _zero_ value in education, and further in their own education. To state that without a given degree alone, that any qualified "smart" optician is "a detriment" is a very frightening statement to make. I don't believe for a second that the none of the people "in charge" of our organizations right now have zero education or any degrees. They're doing nothing for us - and neither are their various diplomas on the wall.
> 
> I do applaud your desire to seek a minimum level of general education in the field of opticianry. However, and again as I stated earlier, that cannot be used as a sole benchmark of _ability_ in our field. The ABO, as flawed as it is, was designed to demonstrate a basic (if not extremely minimal) operational knowledge of opticianry. And yet - even though it very probably should have been the national standard - it fails miserably. Raising the standards to a new level is required to improve this state, I believe we all agree on that point here. However a degree, no matter how great or small, or from any given institution, does nothing to guarantee what we're truly after.


For or against? Lot's of double entendre.




> When you look at it - the public isn't concerned much at all with the diplomas, certifications or licenses on the wall of most health care practitioners. To be frank, I _assume_ that my own health care providers are perfectly qualified to treat my needs in the most effective manner possible. I'm far more concerned in my day to day life if the department of health certificate is current at the restaurant I eat dinner in!


Are you joking most people assume that their health care providers have these degrees and certifications necessary to perform their work adequately. Check this study out about opticianry, the public assumes we have these degrees. And the clear majority believe we should have a bachelors degree. http://nfos.org/files/Public_Attitud...eport_only.ppt




> All the diplomas, degrees, certificates and licenses in the world are certainly great for one's own professional, intellectual and educational ego. It really does feel great to learn so much! But in the end, if you can gain nothing from them than having some extra fancy wallpaper, it just won't appeal to the masses.


If we were to define the masses in our industry the masses would be those without education, certifications, or licenses. This profession is full of that, the easiest step up from the masses is certification, which is why you see a larger percentage of certified people. Next comes the licenses, it's easier to obtain because you have the option of apprenticeship or education so those that want the easier road take the apprenticeship option. The most difficult and challenging for many reasons, one you stated the economical impact, the time invested, and the other hoops that need to be jumped through.




> Well, just having gone through the paces of an "education" doesn't guarantee any level of proficiency or intelligence. If you have enough money, you can buy a diploma in just about any school, although it may take more years than normal. Though, for the most part, I agree with your thoughts Roy. Although some of the absolute DUMBEST people I've EVER met were Masters and PhD's. However, I do agree that the chances are much better in dealing with an intelligent human being when they have taken some form of university or other post-secondary education.


Contrary to your belief they are not given out degrees and if they were then you should be in line to get yours rather than arguing against the need or value for one. You are correct that there are no guarantee's in life. We are talking here about the option that provides the highest reassurance of competency. Higher education alone is not the only caveat it has to be from an accredited school, I would guess that anything in it's infancy can't rely on this since their are limited schools that are accredited by COA and NFOS, but a degree none the less is a reassurance of a minimum level of competency.




> I will disagree with the statement that "education levels the playing field". While, in a perfect world, I would like to believe this could be the reality - sadly, in our imperfect world, a degree from any given post secondary learning institution is in no way shape or form guaranteed to be "the same" as another. While it might be more accurate to state that a given degree program could likely lessen the possible disparity of knowledge and skill among entry opticians in the future, I believe putting 100% blind trust in that as a perfect fail safe will leave us disappointed. At the end of the day, the same level of "garbage in - garbage out" applies to university as it does to ABO, or state licensure. An unmotivated student is still unmotivated - and may perhaps choose opticianry in university for the same reasons a Mctician chooses it now...hoping for the "easy" degree or job option. Here's to the hope that this wouldn't be the case...


 
If an unmotivated student were to pick opticianry because it was easy and he passed the necessary classes than his motivation has nothing to do with his competency. School isn't going to create super opticians that are motivated and die hard industry supporters, you will still get people that are just looking for a better job and those that think of it as a 9 to 5. The difference is they will be a better educated 9 to 5er and their lack of education won't hold the profession back.

Yes a degree from one school is the equivalent of another the degree's conferred is an AAS in opticianry no matter which school you go to. The ABO has various tests, passing any of them all confer the designation ABO. I will not attempt to convince you that my ABO was from a harder version of the test than yours. This is the same reality that you must consider when talking about an AAS. Each school will have variations and each teacher will have various attributes that make them stronger in certain areas and lacking in others, but even the worst school among them will confer the minimum required knowledge to attain an AAS in ophthalmic optics. I promise you that the worst school is going to teach 10 times if not more content that any optician will learn studying for the ABO. One test is not a significant determining factor in the knowledge of an optician.

I am not trying to be confrontational with anyone here, I have spent career to date having opticians that have no formal education tell me why my education doesn't make me better than them. I will spend the next half of my career showing them how it is.

I have practiced both with and without a degree, I have seen both sides. I have walked a mile in your shoes, you can walk a mile in mine but you don't want to because you think there is no value. That is the monkey on your back it has nothing to do with this profession.

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

I am not trying to be confrontational with anyone here, I have spent  career to date having opticians that have no formal education tell me  why my education doesn't make me better than them. I will spend the next  half of my career showing them how it is.

If you weren't always insisting that you are better than others you would find people would like you better and not view you as so confrontational.
Look, you have an education: yay you! I applaud you for your hard and expensive work getting that degree. If I had stayed in college and gotten my degree, I would not be an Optician but a marine biologist. Lording your degree over everyone is not a way to either make a happy workplace or friends.

----------


## wmcdonald

> I am not trying to be confrontational with anyone here, I have spent career to date having opticians that have no formal education tell me why my education doesn't make me better than them. I will spend the next half of my career showing them how it is.
> 
> If you weren't always insisting that you are better than others you would find people would like you better and not view you as so confrontational.
> Look, you have an education: yay you! I applaud you for your hard and expensive work getting that degree. If I had stayed in college and gotten my degree, I would not be an Optician but a marine biologist. Lording your degree over everyone is not a way to either make a happy workplace or friends.


That is the point. We want people attracted to this profession who choose to become Opticians, not those who dropped out of something else and wound up here. That is not a personal attack, let me assure you. I have many friends who are wonderful Opticians and have no degree. But for the FUTURE we need to increase standards, and that must include some formal educational program of study.

----------


## YrahG

> If I had stayed in college and gotten my degree, I would not be an Optician but a marine biologist. Lording your degree over everyone is not a way to either make a happy workplace or friends.


Well that's great, you could have been a marine biologist, that stinks that you ended up an optician.  I thought the goal of this thread was to create a future where the phrase would read:

"If I had stayed in college and gotten my degree, I would not be a fry cook but an optician."

I am not here to make friends and if a person with an AAS is lording a degree that's a shame, I would call it more along the lines of court jestering a degree.  It's 2 years, 60 credits.  If you took AP courses in high school you may have credits already, if you are military DSST/DANTES can count towards a degree, their are CLEP tests that can allow you to get credits for next to nothing. 

It's the minimum education you can pick up in school, I don't see any way to say I agree with an educational component and yet say the AAS is too much.  That's a contradiction.  The average class is 3 credits, that means a total of roughly 20 classes gets you a degree.  Half of those will be subjects that are not job specific: Math, Science, Electives, History, English, etc.  Many of those can be tested out of with: http://www.collegeboard.com/student/...lep/about.html which will allow a significant reduction in time and money for the truly educated and broke folks out there.  Some schools also offer an opportunity to take a course on putting together a portfolio and this can then be further submitted to the school to gain credits for prior learning or on the job learning.  Once again this will allow the student to get a significant amount of credit for relatively low cost + the course in many cases to putting together the portfolio is a credit course as well and can qualify as at least an elective I believe.  I have even heard of a few schools accredited that will allow you to test out of a degree completely.  One of my reps helped me to find these resources and after I saw the light I was amazed.  The phrase it's too expensive is no longer valid, it takes too long again no longer valid.

----------


## kcount

> That is the point. We want people attracted to this profession who choose to become Opticians, not those who dropped out of something else and wound up here. That is not a personal attack, let me assure you. I have many friends who are wonderful Opticians and have no degree. But for the FUTURE we need to increase standards, and that must include some formal educational program of study.


The concern will be alienating the standing opticians that are already in the field.  People ranting on and on about being better than one another isn't helping.

----------


## wmcdonald

I know, Mr. Count. We must stop thinking in the past, and even the present. If we simply do as I (and others) recommended all along and increase standards for those coming into the field in the future, no one should be alienated.......at least if they think about the issue. Some feel if it was good for grandad, and good for them, hell it ought to be for the future. That is not the right train of thought. Professions seeks to improve over time, and we have not done that. I am sorry some feel negative and threatened, but it is difficult to tell folks they were not properly prepared and have them like it. Unfortunately that is the fact, and it is not the individual Optician's fault, but the system that has failed them, and us! We must now move ahead and prove that increasing the standards is a worthy, and achievable goal. There are many ways to complete a degree today, but for those already in the field, that will simply not happen. We must look to the future, and eventually, as we stiffen the requirements a bit, the field will improve. It will be a slower process than some would like, and a very painful transition for others. We will attempt to map out a plan in Atlanta.

----------


## kcount

> ... We will attempt to map out a plan in Atlanta.


I'm looking forward to the event.

----------


## Uilleann

Wow - way to read between the lines YrahG.  I'm very sorry, but the fact that I have no "formal university degree" does NOT in any way equate to not having attended post secondary school, that a given individual was a drop out or in any other way "unmotivated", nor indeed does it prove that any given individual has or has not completed just as many credit hours or more than any other.  There are a myriad of reasons why a sole may wish to obtain a given degree or refrain from the same.  But since assuming you have every answer worked out, you can go with that and sleep well on what I can only assume is an extremely large pillow.

I'm very tired of the holier-than-thou attitudes expressed here.  For those still going, have a great time in Atlanta folks.  Several of the egos expressed here make it appear clear to  me that there is a good deal more than simply establishing a basic educational standard motivating some in this push.  As of today, I'm counting myself out of the whole mess.  Thanks Warren, sincerely, for the time and effort you've made over the years and the best of luck to those who make the trip out to Atlanta.  I hope it is everything you wish it to be.

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

----------


## wmcdonald

I wish you would reconsider. Just because you have a disagreement with one individual should not stop you from being a part of this meeting. As a matter of fact, the thread has caused many hurt feeling, but we MUST put those behind us, and think about the future. You are bigger than that.

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

I'm still behind you Warren. I think it will be a boon to have more educated (at least officially) Opticians in the future. Maybe then when all are essentially equal there won't be a reason for some to be conceited. But I realize, as do most with some age on them, that there will always be those who have to feel superior to others, and ignorant of it's effects. And that's an individual thing, mostly just one here. I don't think the Atlanta meeting will be in any way detrimental to our profession, it can only improve it, and I wish it held something for me, but it does not for me personally. Please don't think my feelings are hurt because, after all, this is just an online forum and I've dealt with trollish behavior for longer than that someone has been alive.

----------


## wmcdonald

Come on.......doesn't hold something for you personally? I am disappointed. It is not about individuals, but about improving the profession we should appreciate. It is about making a difference we may not immediately see. Come to Atlanta, and I will promise you one thing from a personal perspective, Fezz will buy you a beer! And he really knows beer.

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## kcount

The Beer alone should be a draw.. The real question is Fezz bringing some of his home brew?

----------


## Jana Lewis

*sigh* And so it starts. 

This thread has been precisely the reason why I quit all of my state organizations. The bickering and constant ego trips have no room for me in my life. 

I will not spend any of my hard earned money to go to Atlanta for THIS. Just an FYI, nothing will change and nothing will get rolling if this is the type of actions that are displayed. 

Uggg. How depressing.

----------


## kcount

> *sigh* And so it starts. 
> 
> This thread has been precisely the reason why I quit all of my state organizations. The bickering and constant ego trips have no room for me in my life. 
> 
> I will not spend any of my hard earned money to go to Atlanta for THIS. Just an FYI, nothing will change and nothing will get rolling if this is the type of actions that are displayed. 
> 
> Uggg. How depressing.


Nah, your supposed to come out and talk with all us resonable people that are simply quietly waiting to have a good conversation face-to-face about the subject. Besides, Atlanta is beautiful in July, if your an iguana at least. Better pack some sun screen.

----------


## YrahG

> The concern will be alienating the standing opticians that are already in the field. People ranting on and on about being better than one another isn't helping.


Here is my train of thought on the subject and I will leave this thread alone with no further interruptions.

Majority = no-degree, no-certification, no-license. 
2nd = basic certification 
3rd = license 
4th = master certification 
Minority = degree 

Everyone seems to agree that some education is important what we don't agree on is how much.  

Think about this: having nothing, being in the majority, garners zero respect.  No effort has been put forward to get into the profession.  This group encompasses some of our brightest and most of our dimmest.

Certified, this group feels a need to do something to prove they are worthy of the profession or competent.  They have put out enough effort to study, pay for, and pass a test.  For this they are acknowledged for having the basic competency to perform their job.  This group has some of the brightest and also has those that are certified so they think they know everything about the profession and in some cases are worst than the most ignorant of us.

Licensed, this group had to go through testing, apprenticeship, and or education to be allowed to perform their job.  This group jumped through various hoops to make it into this career and without meeting these requirements by law cannot practice as an optician.  This group is comprised of great opticians and some really bad ones, in this group because of the various options you have the widest possible breath of optician.  You have those that came into the career wanting to be here, gaining an education and applying for licensure, you also have those that had their boss sign off on the amount of time they worked as an apprentice (falsely) and crammed for the tests just barely passing them.

Master Certified, this group has shown dedication by going through two tests, waiting three years, taking specific CE's and writing a paper.  The organization in charge is willing to waive the three year period and no longer requires the prerequisite CE's, also the basic test has been eroded in depth over the years.  This group is generally dedicated to the profession and is comprised of some of the best in this industry.  Not many dim wits here but an occasional know-it all exists, no way of stopping that.  This group has no control over the value of their certifications because of the continual eroding of the tests and requirements.

Degreed, this optician is the highest credentialed among the group.  Often times a degree closes doors for employment in corporate chains.  Many licensed states offer a means of licensure without a degree through an apprenticeship program which devalues the degree.  I have meet more than a few degreed opticians who are ridiculed by other opticians for the mere fact of having a degree.  This is the least supported group in the bunch and is the minority.  If you work as I do in an unlicensed state then don't for the love of God put down you have a degree on your resume, because you will often be dubbed unqualified.  You can often get a position in ophthalmology easier than you can in your own profession.

Now if I could somehow flip this thing around, make the minority the majority and vice versa.  Basically flip this entire profession a$$ over ears, we would have the solution.  I have had many thoughts over the years as to how to do that, but I have never wavered from knowing that it had to be done.  At one point my thought was "light a match and watch it burn", dispense without remorse; online, through the mail, maximum upgrades even when the patient didn't need them, refract, fit contacts, sell contacts based on old scripts if the VA was good, you name I thought freaking do it.  If we can fast forward the erosion then the urgency would exist to correct the path.  Of course that means we would need to go through an inferno and there are no promises that we're coming back, not to mention I would have to throw ethics aside and I am not the kind of person that treads in those waters lightly.

I thought at one point play nice with the leadership and bide my time, eventually they would be gone and the new leaders can be selected to make change happen.  After meeting a few of these goons, I realized that they are more interested in hop scotching around in the various leadership positions and even realized that it was no fluke that these people were in the positions they were, they played politics on a level that proved I was a novice and would require years of contemplating before I was even ready to put a hat in the ring.  Not to mention that even when they are not in leadership positions they are trying to control the puppet strings.

My next thought was some sort of public campaign which educated the public about the lack of education among their opticians, the study I referenced in an above posts shows that a majority believe that we do have or should have a degree and they believe it should be a BA.  This would be costly and there is no one or where to garner support from.  Most opticians claim they are too broke to fund any effort let alone a media campaign, and most corporations don't see a need to change the status quo.  Many of the independent opticians are just barely holding on or feel that any effort will prove fruitless as history and a dwindled bank account has shown.  Also consider the only thing a license does is handicap the independent opticians as they are the only ones that have to have a license on staff to operate.  The other O's and corporate chains have shown that they can and will operate without licenses when necessary.

My final conclusion, I give up.  I am not going to change the world no matter how hard I try, so I have to change myself.  I started with a certification (most opticians do because it requires the least investment and effort) when I got it the first thing I heard from one of my co-workers was "I know you don't think that makes you any better", over the years I continued to upgrade my skills with more certifications and college courses.  I still meet the same resistance from my co-workers, but instead of answering "I know I just want to know more and it's for my personal satisfaction", I have reached the point where I now understand that they have no business telling me any such nonsense and that I am a better optician.  In a perfect world opticians would say "congratulations and if more opticians pushed forward with their certifications and degrees then eventually we would be out of this rut."  It would be nice to hear, "you are doing what I could never motivate myself to do."

Heck there was a time when opticians used to take Wednesdays off to golf with the OMD's, and write checks for thousands to their associations.  You didn't see these opticians going and getting an education then, in the present I will agree with everyone here it is getting even harder as margins slim and companies look to reduce payroll the landscape is looking bleak.  Many manage to do it now and will manage to do it in the future.  All the opticians that have a degree have instant respect and praise from me NO QUESTIONS ASKED you have reached the pinnacle of this profession, I wish it went higher but it doesn't.  Roy and Warren how any of our uneducated leaders think that 2 opticians with a PhD can't trump a room full of dummies is beyond me, I think anything short of a fire hose turned onto a board meeting will fail to garner their attention.  This is what leads me to my conclusion that in order to have any success with a new organization that promotes the bar being raised, it needs to be run by those who have raised the bar when their was no reason to do so and nothing to gain, these are the folks I rally behind.

I'm done, have at it, rip it up, quote it all you want I can't possibly explain this in any more depth with any more precision.  I hope everyone comes outta the wash in a better place, but I am fully prepared to lose some comrades in the hope of a better, leaner, and meaner optician.

----------


## Johns

> *sigh* And so it starts. 
> 
> This thread has been precisely the reason why I quit all of my state organizations. The bickering and constant ego trips have no room for me in my life.



Jana,

This is par for the course.  Not just this course, but anytime you get a group of folks together, you'll have differing opinions. I appreciate the fact that they are willing to voice them, and air them out here.  How many people are sitting on the sidelines watching/listening and hoping that the next post might reflect their feelings.

Hang in there (everyone).  Good things will come from this...

----------


## Jana Lewis

To YARHG- REALLY?

All of that for what's already been basically said here? 

THIS is why we never get anywhere! Tell you what.. take your ego and shove it! There are many of us that have been envolved in education standards for years! we went through the trenches the meetings, doled out the cash talked to the state government....and always...always some egotistical jerk has to come along and ruin it for everyone. You know, one day your gonna retire and some stupid bimbo is gonna take your place because you have pushed people ready, willing and able to change away! I hope you are proud.

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## wmcdonald

Jana,
If an individual can push you away from something this important, then so be it. If it is important to you , please forget about the personalities. It is not about individuals, but the profession! It is not this BS that counts, but the outcome. Give us a chance. This could be a chance to make some real progress. We need good folks. There is some light at the end of the tunnel.

----------


## HarryChiling

> To YARHG- REALLY?
> 
> All of that for what's already been basically said here? 
> 
> THIS is why we never get anywhere! Tell you what.. take your ego and shove it! There are many of us that have been envolved in education standards for years! we went through the trenches the meetings, doled out the cash talked to the state government....and always...always some egotistical jerk has to come along and ruin it for everyone. You know, one day your gonna retire and some stupid bimbo is gonna take your place because you have pushed people ready, willing and able to change away! I hope you are proud.





> *sigh* And so it starts. 
> 
> This thread has been precisely the reason why I quit all of my state organizations. The bickering and constant ego trips have no room for me in my life. 
> 
> I will not spend any of my hard earned money to go to Atlanta for THIS. Just an FYI, nothing will change and nothing will get rolling if this is the type of actions that are displayed. 
> 
> Uggg. How depressing.





> Wow - way to read between the lines YrahG. I'm very sorry, but the fact that I have no "formal university degree" does NOT in any way equate to not having attended post secondary school, that a given individual was a drop out or in any other way "unmotivated", nor indeed does it prove that any given individual has or has not completed just as many credit hours or more than any other. There are a myriad of reasons why a sole may wish to obtain a given degree or refrain from the same. But since assuming you have every answer worked out, you can go with that and sleep well on what I can only assume is an extremely large pillow.
> 
> I'm very tired of the holier-than-thou attitudes expressed here. For those still going, have a great time in Atlanta folks. Several of the egos expressed here make it appear clear to me that there is a good deal more than simply establishing a basic educational standard motivating some in this push. As of today, I'm counting myself out of the whole mess. Thanks Warren, sincerely, for the time and effort you've made over the years and the best of luck to those who make the trip out to Atlanta. I hope it is everything you wish it to be.
> 
> :cheers::cheers::cheers:


Wow, I would have never believed that one difference in opinion could have taken down two dedicated opticians. There's a lot of good and bad on this thread, I'm with John though I am glad everyones sharing and I hope the thread keeps going. Everyone is saying the same thing but in different ways, everyone want's to be acknowledged for their particular way of making a success of themselves. I'm still learning and still a hot head although I am getting better I am told.  I appreciate both sides here. I have seen a poster on this thread talk at the UnExpo about how his co-workers giving him grief for wanting more from himslef and pushing for higher credentials. I also come from an apprenticeship program and despite of that learned something. I thank Warren every chance I get for introduing me to an option for an education, not an AAS but the Canadian Equivalent, eah. :)

Anyway I think the most productive sessions are ones where no one agrees, so when I get an e-mai from someone bowing out, you better have a better excuse than they hurt my feelings capish (Oh, and poly sucks trivex rules ;P).

Steve really get a popcorn emoticon on here.

----------


## JRS

Warren, this all seems reminiscent of the OCI (Opticians Council International) from back in 2001. Remember that? You, me, Steve, Laurie, JC, Judy… and a host of others no longer with us.

PS – those old threads are still on here if you want to review any of that. The best in my opinion would be “Proposed Mission Statement and Organizational Plan”.

----------


## hcjilson

JRS......blast from the past! He is a man of few words, but when he starts talking I've found the wisest thing is to listen. He would like you all to go here and read, and digest.

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/thre...+International

I post the link for 2 reasons. First, its OK to be passionate about change and you should feel free to speak your mind. Even the folks who disagree with each other have great ideas and good insight. Please don't call each other names, it just cheapens the thread.

The second reason i post the link is to show some of you newer members that the old timers can be more than pretty faces!:bbg:

Nice to see you posting again JRS

hj

----------


## rbaker

> Jana,
> If it is important to you , please forget about the personalities. It is not about individuals, but the profession!


If you can place principals above personalities you may be able to take a few baby steps toward achieving your goals.

----------


## Laurie

Hey JRS,

Wow, I forgot about that!  You have a great memory, the posts there are quite appropriate as well.

Opti-guys and gals,

We'll get there.

Years ago, when I first moved from MA to FL, having been past president of MARDO and politically active, I bugged our exec director of POF to lead our group to eliminate apprenticeship.

He said something like "make formal edu as accessible and as attractive as possible", time, convenience, quality, board results, ect., and the rest will follow...

He was absolutely correct.  Presently we have plenty of students, easily placed in opt career paths, their board results are extremely high, they are making a good living doing something they have a passion for...they all chose opticianry.

My involvement in this push is not to enroll extra students...we are already capped out...   My involvement is to get this standard going:  AS or AAS in Opticianry (not in English or in General Education), and a rigid examination written/practical process to keep our consumer base in competent hands.

We can do this, it is possible, and we must keep personal feelings out of it. 

Lets move forward, more discussions in Atl, and likely VEW after that.

Fezz will buy the first round, I will buy the second.

: )

Laurie

----------


## JRS

Hello HJ, don't post much any more given the current atmosphere lately.

I just read this entire 10 page post for the first time today. Made me think of all the time the bunch of us worked on that. I even flew to several states to meet up with some of you. If I remember right, we met in CA once. Visited Laurie at the college (and she took me home to dinner - which was great fun, met with old AlanW and LaurieC once, and met with the group at OLA in New Orleans. (It was during the OLA I lent Pete my badge so he could interview with Essilor) Oh how Time flies. I truly hope Warren is able to get momentum he needs. Been thinking about going to the Atlanta gig... but don't haven't decided yet.

The best to you and yours way over there - we literally live oceans apart.

----------


## Wes

> I have seen a poster on this thread talk at the UnExpo about how his co-workers giving him grief for wanting more from himslef and pushing for higher credentials.


Sounds familiar... PS, Harry, We need to talk.

YrahG is a hothead as well, and a pretty smart one from what I have seen, but his posts lack tact. Take it from another hothead who often lacks tact, YrahG, no matter how correct your argument, if you pi$$ everyone off while making it, no one will listen to you. 

Guys, keep this in mind. Remove the semi-personal snubs and the "I'm better than you" attitude and the guy has a lot of good points. It's the right message, wrong messenger.

Dragonlensmanwv is a pretty smart optician and computer guy. Probably more so than I. I have degrees, certifications, and licenses. He does not. I can prove on paper that I know what I know. He can not. But chances are, he'll do as good or better than I on your glasses and computer. He is one of the few exceptions, as are many of you on this forum. You, few hundred posters in a field of under a hundred thousand opticians...
The point is this, and listen up, YrahG; degrees, certifications and licenses do not make you a better optician than another. Being a better optician does.

With that said, and let there be no doubt, this is correct, a newly degreed AAS optician is entirely a better optician than someone with zero optical experience. That can not be argued with. Where they end up and how it happens may result in an alternate outcome. But the ENTRYPOINT qualifications can not be argued with. I don't care which of the posters on here you pick who apprenticed or OJT'd, I guartantee I was a better optician after Opticianry school than they were on the day they entered the field. This is why Drs.' McDonald and Ferguson suggest that the Entry Requirements be met BEFORE entering the field. It ensures that the public will always get a qualified optician from day one. It raises the bar of the field. All Opticians' reputation increases. 

Of course not all Opticians will accept this because they percieve it to make them appear inferior, while knowing themselves not to be.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Hello HJ, don't post much any more given the current atmosphere lately.
> 
> I just read this entire 10 page post for the first time today. Made me think of all the time the bunch of us worked on that. I even flew to several states to meet up with some of you. If I remember right, we met in CA once. Visited Laurie at the college (and she took me home to dinner - which was great fun, met with old AlanW and LaurieC once, and met with the group at OLA in New Orleans. (It was during the OLA I lent Pete my badge so he could interview with Essilor) Oh how Time flies. I truly hope Warren is able to get momentum he needs. Been thinking about going to the Atlanta gig... but don't haven't decided yet.
> 
> The best to you and yours way over there - we literally live oceans apart.


Stop thinking and join in. I could really use your guidance! You guys up there are ahead of us in many ways, and that could prove very helpful.

You make a good point on the council. We did talk about many of these things, and I have reviewed that thread. You see, I feel strongly that people want to improve, and just need guidance. This page is ow 19 pages almost, and some indicate it is the same folks viewing over and over, but that at least proves there is a core to start with on this new path. 

It is really good to hear from you, and I look foward to seeing you in Atlanta.

----------


## ih8wlmrt

> JRS......blast from the past! He is a man of few words, but when he starts talking I've found the wisest thing is to listen. He would like you all to go here and read, and digest.
> 
> http://www.optiboard.com/forums/thre...+International
> 
> I post the link for 2 reasons. First, its OK to be passionate about change and you should feel free to speak your mind. Even the folks who disagree with each other have great ideas and good insight. Please don't call each other names, it just cheapens the thread.
> 
> The second reason i post the link is to show some of you newer members that the old timers can be more than pretty faces!:bbg:
> 
> Nice to see you posting again JRS
> ...


can anyone tell me why I am not allowed to view this thread and what I need to do to be able to read it?
thanks

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## Fezz

> can anyone tell me why I am not allowed to view this thread and what I need to do to be able to read it?
> thanks


I can't read it either!

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## harry a saake

Jilson, i also cant read it, what gives

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## JRS

I would venture a guess it's because it is still in the "Council Forum" which was exclusive to members. I am not a moderator, so I can't move it to a better location - err, for more public viewing. Perhaps HC or Steve, should they wish to, could move it for viewing. Or, if that is not an option, then one of us could cut-n-paste the section HC was referencing.

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## canaanlilli

WOW! I go away for a few days to take my finals and I come back and goodness, the people are even uglier than I was. 

I'll make this short and sweet. You guys have helped me see the light, a little. I have revised my idea of how the whole education/training thing should go.

A: start your AAS
B: in your second semester work in either a on campus dispensary under supervision or if that is not available work at a local shop with practicals being taken.
    this is how nurses, teachers and many other professionals do it, that way they are getting the formal education but they are also getting hands on training.
C: on B you must stay working as well as pursuing your degree.
D: Decide by your second year whether this is a good fit or not. If it is not a good fit, don't waste your money pursuing a degree you don't like, or the time of those around you.
E: graduate. 

All this being said I do have one important point to make.

If you decide that entry level degrees are what is required then down the road those of us who do not have a degree will not be able to get a job. This has been proven time and again in multiple fields. (i.e. computer sciences, graphic arts, journalism and list continues) I am not disagreeing that we need to pursue degrees for the future. But the point is that people look at degrees and say "They must be better than Canaan who has worked in the field for 12+ years." This happened to many people around me with automechanics and computer sciences (most notably my father and father in-law). They were literally told that their 30 years experience didn't hold beans compared to the fresh faced kids who had no practical experience.

Again, understand that I am not disagreeing with the need for better education, I just think you need to consider a way to make it so that those of us with experience can take clept courses or something to give us an equal hiring ground. I would love to take the test and see how much I really know, and what I need to learn.

SO, Little sister Optician says, quit being so frikkin ugly to eachother. If you can't play respectfully then be quiet. Figure out how to talk to eachother nicely, and let's figure  out our future in a way that will meet education needs, but also address the need for all of us pre-education opticians to have a way to not get pushed out by the notion that a degree is better than experience.

Also, I think that the I need to see a new ABO, because it was a hard test 12 years ago, and you had to pass with a 75% with the prentice rule portion and transposing and several other things being answered correctly.

I think your final exam for your AAS should be practicals, so many hours of field work(often called internship), and a test that and ABO certificate, simply because then you should still be able to pursue the Abo-AC and them ABOM. 

Oh and when did they waive the three year rule?

----------


## wmcdonald

I am pleased you are seeing the light a bit! The need for education and a specific plan for those without a degree in place are significant pieces to the puzzle, and I think we have that covered, which we discussed several times on this thread. No one needs to feel threatened due to increasing requirements. It will be a process that evolves over the years. We will discuss in Atlanta and also in my upcoming monthly article in ECP. 

Alll recognized degree and diploma programs have a significant practical requirement. On-campuss clinics and internships are a part of the accrediting process developed long ago by COA, and affords these students with some experience prior to entering the field. It will still not prepare them to go to work in an office, and let the owner take off the first afternoon as many think. A Harvard MBA that graduates and goes to work for IBM is placed in a 6-month training program to acclimate the individual to the methods employed by the company. In Opticianry we expect the students to be well-versed in every facet of the field upon hiring, which is unrealistic. Schools all have a practical component assuring competnecy, but proficiency comes with experience. 

The 3-year rule has been long gone. It was a 1-year rule for over a decade, and now there is NO rule, and that has been the case for a long time. A pulse and a fee and you sit for the ABO. Even at that there is a 52- 54% pass rate, indicating that it is way too easy. Join us in Atlanta and help map out the future.

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## canaanlilli

I wish I could join in Atlanta, but I can't due to the fact that is my weekend to work and there is no one to fill in. My bosses have already made that clear. That is why I requested that whatever you discuss (quite a few post back) someone share with me after the weekend. 

Please, don't take my inability to attend as not having passion about my field, or a disinterest in furthering it. I think I have proven that on this thread alone.

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## Fezz

> We will discuss in Atlanta and also in my upcoming monthly article in ECP.


 
Here is a link to Eye Care Professional Magazine for those that are interested!

http://www.ecpmag.com/

I think ECP Magazine is the best trade magazine we have. I may be biased, but I really believe it!

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## kcount

> My involvement is to get this standard going:  AS or AAS in Opticianry (not in English or in General Education), and a rigid examination written/practical process to keep our consumer base in competent hands.


Agreed. A degree in Opticianry would be great and needs to be a milestone in the process. So I ask this, given that the number of Opticianry programs are limited, how does one in a non-licensed state get the education? Is it better to start out with an Associates in Some Science initially until we get the ball rolling? This would at least give the candidate some start into free thinking, problem solving and learning how to meet a deadline. (Which ultimately is what an undergrad degree does.)  An Assoc in Opticianry seems more like a technical degree that simply cant be taught fully long distance.  Unless of course that person is already in the field and has access to equipment, which is of course what we're trying to stop... aren't we? Also, what about a person that has a Bachelors in Philosophy, how does that person become an optician?

Also, when I started all those years ago, I wasn't hired as an optician. I was a 'Frame Stylist'. Are we setting ourselves up to bring back this group of workers? Is that a bad thing? Does having 'Frame Stylists' simply strengthen our position as 'Opticians'. 

Canaanan makes a great point about the non-degreed opticians seeing this movement as a threat to their future survival. How do we as a group smooth this fear? Pardon me Dr. Warren, but saying this is for the future won't solve this problem. The concern is valid and understandable. If someone walked in tomorrow and told me I had to have a degree in opticianry to keep my store I would panic first and start yelling second.  We are going to need a real answer to this concern, as this is going to be the one point that undoes the movement. Telling people that this is good for them but will potentially put them out of a job will only incite fear and retaliation.

FWIW.

KC

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## Roy R. Ferguson

> Canaanan makes a great point about the non-degreed opticians seeing this movement as a threat to their future survival. How do we as a group smooth this fear? KC


The educational concerns of the currently working/certified/licensed opticians must be addressed if we are to avoid the opposition encountered in the past.  There are several alternatives available.  I plan to add this to the discussion in Atlanta.  Remember, we are attempting to elevate the entire profession.  My choice would be to provide educational opportunities to current opticians that are affordable, convenient, and afford credit for experience and certifications/licenses where possible.  This must be done on a state-by-state basis, but models do exist.

Roy

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## wmcdonald

There are opportunities for currently licensed folks. It will be nearly impossible to require folks who will not or cannot take advantage of this educational opportunity to stop working in the field. That is not the goal, and please pardon me, but I have said this on this thread 1000 times. Give me a break (a little light humor for those who do not see it immediately!). Many come here with specific criteria in mind, and that is not what this meeting is about. We want to hear from all parties what needs to be done, and how we need to go about doing it. If you only have your own interest in mind, stay home! We only want folks who wish to see this profession advance sans personal agendas. We have designed a very good option to address the needs of all parties, but it is only a suggestion. If all do not buy in, it will never be accepted. so this meeting is where all your ideas are to be collated and formed into something great. It does not institute a national license as some want. That is not in the Constitution of the United States, and will never happen. Licensing is a states-rights issue and beyond our efforts. It does provide a vehicle by which we can springboard this field ahead with a rigid, stringent set of criteria, and a nationally-branded title that seperates us from the pack that want to remain in their current status. This will eventually lead to a more uniform definition of this advanced level of Opticianry, and thereby leading to licensure if we are successful. If we all look the same and do similar things, then we will be more apt to develop common scope of practice across the country. This will allow for an expansion and licensure if we do it right. 

It will require, by a mutually-accepted date, a degree from an accredited institution of higher learning for the future Optician, with an academic credential specific to the field of study. We will show you how to accomplish that task. One option is Laurie's program, although it is expensive for out-of-state folks who cannot come tho their campus for testing and assessment. J. Sargernt Reynolds is another option. There are othres we will describe to you. Roy will also discuss an opportunity for advanced degree program he has developed long ago. This meeting will not eliminate those with no formal education, but will allow for a review of existing credentials. Those with non-academic credentials currently in practice can submit their credentials and be approved for the new title by a subsequently developed board consisting of educators and others academically prepared that can review those credentials. There are many excellent practitioners with excellent backgrounds that can meet the necessary criteria that will be established, but after a specific time selected by the group, there will be no more. Once that time passes, a degree will be necessary.

Keep in mind, these are suggestions. Many want to read a few posts on this thread and grace us with their solutions to our issues. It is not that simple and will take time and work. But it is worth it folks. Join us if you feel we need to change and improve. We need your voice!

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> It will require, by a mutually-accepted date, a degree from an accredited institution of higher learning for the future Optician, with an academic credential specific to the field of study. We will show you how to accomplish that task.


Personally, I would prefer that we reserve all specific discussions regarding this endeavor for the meeting in Atlanta.  It’s much easier to hammer out details in personal.  In that way we can minimize misunderstandings.  

Warren is right; the time has come for opticians to advance through education.  We have to hammer out the specifics and move forward.  My attitude is that we offer educational opportunities to as many current opticians as we can during a limited timeframe.  After that, education standards must be achieved before entry.

Roy

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## canaanlilli

How is 52% a decent pass rate, any college or school district with that pass rate loses federal and state accredition. I'm not saying it should be easier, I just don't understand how you can think a pass rate that the federal or state goverments wouldn't approve could mean a test is to easy?

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## Roy R. Ferguson

> I just don't understand how you can think a pass rate that the federal or state goverments wouldn't approve could mean a test is to easy?


The ABO is an exercise in simplicity that lacks the depth to be a true licensing examination.  Poor pass rates point to woefully unprepared candidates rather than the intensity of the exam.  The last practical examination I administered had a 40% pass rate for the same reason.  We must upgrade through formal education.

Roy

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## Wes

Schools are held to that standard because they are Required to Educate. Students can generally pass exams after a year of schooling if they learn what they're supposed to.  

The ABO IS an easy test. Far too easy. The reason for the low pass rate is simple. 
Anyone can take it. The guy who started at americas worst in september can take it in november. Think he's gonna pass?  Not quite the same as the kid who sat in class all year is it?

If a teacher had a pass rate of fifty percent for really easy exams wed fire that teacher for failing to educate. What does it tell you about the optician education system that we have such a poor pass rate for a simplistic exam?

----------


## canaanlilli

my question this time had nothing to do with formal education...been there, had that discussion I now agree with you guys. My point is that a test with a lower pass rate than what is allowed by schools for government funding is considered in most fields a difficult test. 
I understand the field has been dumbed down. Ya'll need to realize that some of us are agreeing with you, we just don't agree with the order you want to do it. Get over it, quit treating everyone like crap, and I am saying this to both sides. 
maybe if this discussion has reached the circular discussion point then it needs to be tabled until after the meeting in atlanta. much like in familial disagreements, sometimes it's best to walk away, breathe, have your meetings then come back. 
Now ya'll have irritated me enough with your crappy attitudes towards each other that I am using ya'll and not capitalizing...great for a language arts major. Make my northern missouri blood come out why don't ya. Here I am proud of my neutral language...lol.

----------


## Wes

How is an uneducated newbie calling himself an optician any less undesirable than an illiterate high school grad? Either way there is a failure in the education system. Does that put it more in perspective?

----------


## canaanlilli

If a teacher had a pass rate of fifty percent for really easy exams wed fire that teacher for failing to educate. What does it tell you about the optician education system that we have such a poor pass rate for a simplistic exam?

Most school systems have this issue, especially in the urban districts. Trust me, I live in one, and there are two in Mo which have lost there accreditation. The standardized test these kids take are incredibly easy, the frikkin SAT and ACT are jokes, these kids are not educated in school, and we do not fire teachers based on pass, we should but we don't. 

the average american student graduates from high school unable to read and think critically. the average college student isn't doing much better. do you know the average college student reads at what was considered a 5th grade reading level 10 years ago?? 
Standardized testing is a joke, no matter what level, professionally and academically. 
I guess what I am trying to say that fine, the ABO has been dumbed down, that just means it's no better than any other standardized testing. your argument about kids sitting in class and taking a test holds no water, because of the current state of our education system.
If you think that a aas is going to be good because college is "higher education" then you are kidding yourself. If you think it is a good idea because it will help standardized the training in the field we work in, then you are correct.
This is why I think it is a good idea, it will provide a standard type of training across the board. It will ensure that the beginning optician has a good idea of theory, and if it is done with practicals and internships, then they will also have a good idea of patient service. 
you know you are one of my favorite optiboard members, so join me in a smile. and acknowledment that the current education system sucks.

does anyone realize that in sweden, switzerland other countries in Europe they actually laugh at our pre-grad system?

----------


## canaanlilli

now, i hope when i get back from my class tonight, ya'll haven't killed each other.

----------


## Diane

> How is 52% a decent pass rate, any college or school district with that pass rate loses federal and state accredition. I'm not saying it should be easier, I just don't understand how you can think a pass rate that the federal or state goverments wouldn't approve could mean a test is to easy?


Your statement actually reflects on the lack of preparation that the folks taking the ABO or NCLE have.  If they been *required* to attend formal education or any type of education for that matter prior to sitting for the exam, the test scores would be higher.  You are right...52% is abysmal, which is what this thread is all about.  It's not the fault of the ABO/NCLE, it's the fault of those taking the test.  

Over the years, one thing that I'm hearing more and more...(note whining) "my boss won't pay for me to take the test", "my boss won't pay for my books"...and on and on.  

Oh well...

Diane

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## Laurie

In regard to ABO pass rates:

The opt college stats are public information...you can look them up...we (opt/nfos/coa) programs consistently have a pass rate in the high- 90-something percentile, across the country.  So...looking closely, it brings the ABO stats to a much lower level for those who take it w/o formal ed.  Not bragging, however, our college (Go HCC!) has had 98 - 100 percent pass rate for a while now...

If we do the math, with the majority of opt students passing, and the national average at 52 percent pass rate, the picture comes into better focus...

its easy to blame the teachers.

: (

----------


## obxeyeguy

> If a teacher had a pass rate of fifty percent for really easy exams wed fire that teacher for failing to educate. What does it tell you about the optician education system that we have such a poor pass rate for a simplistic exam?


What optical Education system are you referring to?  The extensive 42 hour training program?  The "internship" someone did?  Isn't that the point being made here?  

This thread is a joke!  I have stayed away from posting here because I could see the writing on the wall, and it all became very clear very fast.  We indeed, are our own worst enemy.  Hurt feelings, I'm smarter than you, your not educated, blaa blaa blaa. 

Beat of luck in your endeavor.

----------


## canaanlilli

Ummm..I went to the NFOS site and looked at several of the programs; but  two of the schools pages would not load. Community College of Vermont  says "Error 404, page does not exist" and Dekalb says "error loading  page".
 I would like to finish checking them out, but whenever a link is broken  it does not instill confidence in m

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## HarryChiling

> Ummm..I went to the NFOS site and looked at several of the programs; but  two of the schools pages would not load. Community College of Vermont  says "Error 404, page does not exist" and Dekalb says "error loading  page".
>  I would like to finish checking them out, but whenever a link is broken  it does not instill confidence in m


Dekalb loads fine for me and I don't see any reference to Vermont, do you have a link to the NFOS site where you are having these issues?

Never mind I see it's on their online course page.

Dekalb (looks like they recently updated the site so that's the reason for a broken link) - http://www.dekalbtech.edu/academics/opticianry.php

I have found no reference to a program in Vermonts community college.

----------


## Diane

Canaanlilli,

I don't know you, and NEVER jump into threads that seem edgy or in the case of this thread argumentative, but I'm going to make an exception here.  There is a lot of misunderstanding going on with regard to this subject, but it's one, that I believe in.  I don't want to post this for everyone to see, but the information that I want to share should be seen by many.

On one hand, it looks like you want to support moving forward in the future for Opticians.  On the other hand, it looks like you are trying to find fault and hold the profession back.  I think you want to see it go forward.  Nobody says there's no fault in the system.  Since you have mentioned you are in school, now, look at the large picture.  If you are licensed or even certified, nobody is trying to degrade what you have achieved.  They are only saying that because of the technology/advancement, everything that would be too much to address here, it's time to move forward with formal educational requirements.  

Every professional began at an apprentice level/journeyman level at some point in time, including medical doctors.  Way back when, they found something that worked and shared that knowledge.  Then at some point, they decided that sharing it on a more formal level made more sense.  So began formal schools.  Thank goodness for that.  Optometry began as Opticians and then began refracting.  There became refracting opticians and dispensing opticians.  Then the refracting opticians chose to move forward by moving into a formal educational system...then required it in order to become called an Optometrist.  Look at the process.  It works.  It also requires a financial and time investment.  

I'm kind of like Warren...my time is moving on.  I've been in this wonderful industry for over 35 years. (we stop at 35 years.  Gives away a girls age.:))   I chose this industry.  There have been some fabulous Opticians who achieved much without formal education and could continue to do so, but as Laurie (proud to call her my friend) pointed out, the pass rate for OUR entry level written test is significantly higher by those who have received formal education.  Most people don't have the drive to find the information to study without a formal setting.  They look at what they HAVE to do to get by.  Usually that means somebody else has to provide it.  

Like a number on this board, I write, I lecture, I consult and I try to make a difference as well as a living.  I can do the first three of those without ever sharing information on this board or particularly on this thread.  The fourth one I can't do without stepping up and speaking up.  

Don't fight something that can only make our profession better.  Be a part of the advancement, not a part of the chain/rope/manacle that holds it where it is.

Diane

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## Fezz

> Don't fight something that can only make our profession better. Be a part of the advancement, not a part of the chain/rope/manacle that holds it where it is.
> 
> Diane


 
Very well said Diane!

I'll say it another way:

You are either part of the problem.......................or you are part of solution!

Which do you {you in general...noat directed toward any one person} want to be?

----------


## wmcdonald

> How is 52% a decent pass rate, any college or school district with that pass rate loses federal and state accredition. I'm not saying it should be easier, I just don't understand how you can think a pass rate that the federal or state goverments wouldn't approve could mean a test is to easy?


The rate is easy to understand, really. NO prep at all, and folks pass at that rate? Easy exam. Students at most (not all, as I know of 1 who has poor pass rates) of the schools pass at a near 100% rate, which means in reality that the OJT folks (note I do not refer to them as apprentices) do very poorly overall on a simplistic exam designed as entry-level only. I should have been more clear, but that was not the thrust of that particular post. Read the entire thread if you have not, and things may be clearer. If you read my initial post on this thread, that is why I started this conversation. It is unfair to send these folks with 0 education and training out to take an exam with 0 required to take it, and expect them to do well. It is also a very poor reflection on this field many of us see as a professional endeavor. I hope that explains it clearly.

----------


## Uilleann

One point I would like to revisit is this: If there is no financial incentive for opticians to better themselves, most will likely not.  Hence the questions regarding reimbursement for test costs etc.  I would venture a guess that many optometrists, certainly more than a few ophthalmologists and more generally ANY MD doesn't go through all that school and trouble for no other reasons than to show off how "smart" they are, or strictly for "the public welfare".  They do it to make MONEY.  And I believe that we, as dispensers, have been given the short end of the financial stick.  This is very likely due to our own direct inability to act and raise our own standards.  But in order to see real motivation, a unified voice, and forward progress made here, it will have to come with a dollar sign attached I believe.

And why shouldn't they (we)?  Optometrists and ophthalmologists require a given fee for their services.  Shouldn't highly educated, skilled opticians as well?  I think at the end of the day, this may be the single largest motivating factor for many in the field today, and even more so for those yet to enter opticianry tomorrow.  Requiring a vastly expanded educational component will absolutely have to be offset by a much higher level of compensation than is currently offered in the states IMHO.  Agree/disagree?

Bri~

----------


## wmcdonald

I ageee, completely. If there is no financial benefit most will not attempt to meet a higher standard. And I hate to say this, but the financial incentive will not be immediate. But eventually, as we move ahead and increase our knowledge, skills and abilities, we will gain from not only a financial perspective, but there are many other added benefits not clear yet. Remember it took our OD colleagues 20 or more years to be able to "do drugs"! We should not expect to take as long, if we work effectively, but it will be impacted by time. We will see what happens in Atlanta. It should prove interesting.

----------


## canaanlilli

I think if you read carefully you will see that I know longer disagree. Most of what I disagree is the manner in which people have addressed others, and the actual nuts and bolts on how to move forward. Most of us have agreed that we now need a two year degree with practicals or internships. My only other concern at this point is how can we make it so that those of us who have been in the industry for awhile or longer, where we do not end up in the same boat as those professions that will no longer higher a highly experienced person over a fresh faced graduate with little to no experience. That my biggest concern at this time. 
I get it, we need to further the field. We also need to figure out a way to provide/protect those of us in the field for a while. I think giving us the opportunity to clept out of the courses we can, and then be able to take the courses we cannont.
That is where I am, I am not fighting anything, I am just bringing up points I am not seeing others address.

----------


## Wes

A valid point Canaan. Perhaps those being "grandfathered" in case of new licensing states could take some sort of equivalency tests as you're suggesting with the CLEP. Something like the Advanced Certification exams. These are all just ideas for now. As to Warrens idea for a higher level of optician, an ophthalmic optician(brand name?), so to speak, I don't think testing out cuts it. A degree, a cut above, deserves better. If everyone could grandfaher into that, then what's the point?  
Thisll be much easier to hash out with all of us in a room together.

----------


## rbaker

It used to be an axiom that you could not legislate a person out of his livelihood hence the practice of "grandfathering" came into use. I hope and believe that this principal would be upheld by any state legislature and supported by the general public.

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## Fezz

Alright, alright, alright!

I have to admit it!

I don't really think that anything of real substance will come of this gathering! 

I really believe that! 

Nothing of real substance could ever come from a meeting like this!

Or could it?

WHAT WILL COME OF THIS GET TOGETHER?

Who knows?

What I will gather from this is a deeper understanding of where we have come, where we are and where we need to be as a profession. I will be humbled by the dedication and devotion of fellow opticians who have fought the good fight for as many years as I have been sucking air! I will get to brush shoulders with the best and brightest that our profession has to offer! I will get to share ideas, opinions, jabs, and speak my mind with friends who not only talk the talk, but walk the walk! I will have the opportunity to shake hands, break bread, and hoist a drink (or four) with the movers and shakers of our industry. I will get the chance to be a sponge and try to absorb some of the knowledge that these very gifted and talented individuals have to offer. I will gather an even deeper respect for my fellow attendees who put there money where their mouth is! I will get to share in something that has potential to change the dynamic of our industry as we know it!

I will have the opportunity to be part of the solution and stop being part of the problem!

I will step up and not step aside!

What will you do?

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> We also need to figure out a way to provide/protect those of us in the field for a while. I think giving us the opportunity to clept out of the courses we can, and then be able to take the courses we cannont.


I wrote this a few posts back:

Warren is right; the time has come for opticians to advance through education. We have to hammer out the specifics and move forward. My attitude is that we offer educational opportunities to as many current opticians as we can during a limited timeframe. After that, education standards must be achieved before entry.

_This issue will be addressed in Atlanta._  Please come to Atlanta and share your ideas on how to accomplish this important item.  If you are unable to attend, please send suggestions to me by email and I’ll try to address each one.  My HUGE fear is that the majority of opticians will allow others to do the heavy lifting and then pick nits until they destroy this opportunity for all.  

Roy

----------


## YrahG

> _This issue will be addressed in Atlanta._  Please come to Atlanta and share your ideas on how to accomplish this important item.  If you are unable to attend, please send suggestions to me by email and Ill try to address each one.  My HUGE fear is that the majority of opticians will allow others to do the heavy lifting and then pick nits until they destroy this opportunity for all.  
> 
> Roy


That's how it has ended in the past.  How to ensure a more dedicated optician?

----------


## Uilleann

No replies in four days - and nothing but crickets on the email that was sent out several weeks back now.  Here's to hoping there are enough left with an over-abundance of patience and tolerance for what's been expressed in the past few pages here to get something done in July.  Hopefully, some form of substantial and equitable progress can be made then.  And, one would hope, that some serious progress might be made before then as well - perhaps via email and phone networking.

----------


## MarySue

> One point I would like to revisit is this: If there is no financial incentive for opticians to better themselves, most will likely not.  Bri~


There is always a financial reason for bettering your skills, knoweldge, etc.  If only to be able to open and run your OWN business.  I can't believe that any professional would think furthering their education would have no effect on their financial success.  Of course you bring more value to the business employing you, you have a better point to negotiate wages from.  Increasing profitability and sales, turnover, customer satisfaction, lowering remakes, breakages, incidental costs that add up --- if I had an employee who was working to that end, I would be hanging on for dear life, and using whatever financial means I had to ensure they were satisfied with their employer.  

I know times in the industry - as in others - have taken a nose dive here in NZ - where insurances and employers rarely offer coverage for eyecare, specs, etc. Are you having the same in the States, and if so - why not use the time to study, to increase your skills, to ask your employer what skill base would compliment the business, and eventually help you raise your earning potential.  

Why are we opticians so darned MYOPIC!?!

----------


## Diane

> There is always a financial reason for bettering your skills, knoweldge, etc. If only to be able to open and run your OWN business. I can't believe that any professional would think furthering their education would have no effect on their financial success. Of course you bring more value to the business employing you, you have a better point to negotiate wages from. Increasing profitability and sales, turnover, customer satisfaction, lowering remakes, breakages, incidental costs that add up --- if I had an employee who was working to that end, I would be hanging on for dear life, and using whatever financial means I had to ensure they were satisfied with their employer. 
> 
> I know times in the industry - as in others - have taken a nose dive here in NZ - where insurances and employers rarely offer coverage for eyecare, specs, etc. Are you having the same in the States, and if so - why not use the time to study, to increase your skills, to ask your employer what skill base would compliment the business, and eventually help you raise your earning potential. 
> 
> Why are we opticians so darned MYOPIC!?!


Mary Sue,

I love your comments...all of them including the last one...short sighted/myopic how right you are.

Diane

----------


## MarySue

You too Diane - YOU ROCK, I think I'd probably have you beat in the Plus part of years dispensing, but I started when I was .... *cough* two?   :Rolleyes:

----------


## Johns

> What will you do?


*Reservation Confirmation*

*           Hilton Garden Inn' Atlanta Perimeter Center  $59.00
*


                                  1501  Lake Hearn Drive,
            Atlanta, GA          

*Room details:*
                    1 King evolution rm...Adjust.Sleep system bed-crisp- white duvet...Hi def.Tv-comp hi speed net-microwv-refrig - nonrefundable 

*Traveler:*
           Johns

*Arrival Date*
07/23-10
*Check-Out Date*
07/25/10
*
Payment Type*
Visa
 



The only bad thing is that I lied.  I said that I'd have two double beds, but the king bed sounded so good (and cheap!) that I went that way instead.  For that price, anyone/everyone can afford a room.  (and it's only about 400 yards from the meeting).

FYI:  I booked it through Orbitz.com, only because it keeps track of my hotels for me, so that 2 months from now, I don't forget where I'm staying.

----------


## Diane

> *Reservation Confirmation*
> 
> * Hilton Garden Inn' Atlanta Perimeter Center $59.00
> *
> 
> 
> 1501 Lake Hearn Drive,
> Atlanta, GA 
> 
> ...


Johns,

It's 1.1 miles, and across I-285.  Probably wouldn't want to walk there.  BUT...it's close.:)

Diane

----------


## Bill West

This post is sounding like the U.S.Congress, all talk and meanwhile going off in all directions with no real focus on the problem. I have said for years, if you want to be a "refracting Optician", go to Optometry School and become an Optometrist. Opticianary is a "hands on " profession. If we want to have really good Opticians we should teach them all the book learning in one year give them an apprentice certificate and require them to work with a duly licensed optician for two years. If a degree is required it should be attained BEFORE attending a school for Opticanary. This way at least, they might know how to spell correctly and already have the math. So if one chooses to be an Optician, get a degree, spend one year learning optics and two years becoming a real Optician. One of, if not the number one thing, that sits an Optician apart from all the rest, is his or her's ability to PROPERLY MEASURE, FIT AND ADJUST A PAIR OF EYEGLASSES. This can only be learned by doing it, i.e. HANDS ON. There are many schooled Opticians today who know the book learning and still cannot fit a pair of eyeglasses. I personally think it comes down to attitude and work ethic. You must really want to do a good job or you just become one of the wannabes. They should also be taught how to open and run an optical shop. If we had a class on this, many Optometrist might be wise to attend since most all the new ones run to the chains. I would also like to say that this is caused in part by the enormous cost of becoming a refractionist, which they lost sight of and desired to become "Medical Optometrist". Honestly if they could go back to being a good refractionist and having an Optical shop with a good Optician, many of them would be much better off today. So if Opticianary becomes too expensive to get there, it will become a dying breed. I have sat under some of these great expounders of higher learning at seminars and I wonder, have I already heard all they know? I won't be in Atlanta.

----------


## Diane

> This post is sounding like the U.S.Congress, all talk and meanwhile going off in all directions with no real focus on the problem. I have said for years, if you want to be a "refracting Optician", go to Optometry School and become an Optometrist. Opticianary is a "hands on " profession. If we want to have really good Opticians we should teach them all the book learning in one year give them an apprentice certificate and require them to work with a duly licensed optician for two years. If a degree is required it should be attained BEFORE attending a school for Opticanary. This way at least, they might know how to spell correctly and already have the math. So if one chooses to be an Optician, get a degree, spend one year learning optics and two years becoming a real Optician. One of, if not the number one thing, that sits an Optician apart from all the rest, is his or her's ability to PROPERLY MEASURE, FIT AND ADJUST A PAIR OF EYEGLASSES. This can only be learned by doing it, i.e. HANDS ON. There are many schooled Opticians today who know the book learning and still cannot fit a pair of eyeglasses. I personally think it comes down to attitude and work ethic. You must really want to do a good job or you just become one of the wannabes. They should also be taught how to open and run an optical shop. If we had a class on this, many Optometrist might be wise to attend since most all the new ones run to the chains. I would also like to say that this is caused in part by the enormous cost of becoming a refractionist, which they lost sight of and desired to become "Medical Optometrist". Honestly if they could go back to being a good refractionist and having an Optical shop with a good Optician, many of them would be much better off today. So if Opticianary becomes too expensive to get there, it will become a dying breed. I have sat under some of these great expounders of higher learning at seminars and I wonder, have I already heard all they know? I won't be in Atlanta.


So Bill, you choose to not be a part because you have nothing to offer constructively, or you can't physically attend because of other prior ??? or what?

Some of your vast previous posts indicate that you *could* have something constructive to offer.  However, I'm reading some "oh well" here.  

Wish you would attend.

Diane

----------


## Johns

> Johns,
> 
> It's 1.1 miles, and across I-285.  Probably wouldn't want to walk there.  BUT...it's close.:)
> 
> Diane



Yes, driving it is a little farther, as you have to go around.  I was there 2 years ago, and my son wanted to check out the cemetery (for Civil War markers) and my wife wanted to go to the Big Peach running store for new shoes, so we opted to let her take the van.  We chose to walk, and ended up going all the way to the Crowne Plaza to check out the lobby.

Yeah...two years ago I was in better shape, so maybe it only took us 7 minutes then.  And yes, I'm sure some people were saying, "Look at that idiot with his kid running across the street!", but hey, to a 10 year old, it was quite the vacation adventure.  

Oh, and map quest agrees that walking is not the best idea:

Use caution  This route may be missing sidewalks or pedestrian paths.Walking directions to 4355 Ashford Dunwoody Rd, Atlanta, GA
*0.4 mi*  about *9 mins*




We went under the bridge, which makes it even shorter, as they have you walking along the road.  I'll bet if you time it right, you can even get a free coffee from some of the folks living under the bridge. (they weren't there two years ago, but the economy was better then..)

----------


## LDOKelly

This is an intense subject. I sit on the board of my state association and this subject comes up every year. In Washington state we have one school that offers an AAS and one school that has on online apprenticeship program to help gear towards licensure. Funding the push for an AAS requirement is incredibly expensive and many states get their bills shot down by the corporates who can afford the full time lobbyists. Most opticians here want the AAS requirement, it's just too expensive for a couple of hundred association members to pay for.  just my 2 cents.

----------


## Johns

> Most opticians here want the AAS requirement, it's just too expensive for a couple of hundred association members to pay for.  just my 2 cents.


Then maybe, they should make a specific designation for that group, for those that want to pursue it, and thus avoid tangling with the legislative/lobby side of it.  You know, like the ASE Certification for mechanics.  There are many mechanics out there, but the ASE Certification has become their industry standard.  Of course, it wouldn't have the teeth as if it were mandated, but it would be a start.

----------


## kcount

It's official.  Hotel and plane tickets booked.  I'll be seeing you all in ATL.

----------


## Uilleann

In the public's mind - I would venture a guess that the overwhelming majority couldn't give a TOSS if any form of education is "mandated" or not.  This wasn't / isn't about the general public per se, but rather opticianry as a profession trying to stay medically and ethically relevant, as well as becoming truly economically viable for future generations of dispensers.

I think the ASE comparison is a good one.  If enough opticians start their own movement, and do it on their own without the involvement of any state or federal legislative body, we can essentially create our own 'gold standard'.  It will certainly take time, but with a proper focus, it could eclipse the bloated cash cow of the ABO and other like minded organizations.  I believe grass roots can work here - there just has to be the interest, dedication and rewards (perceived or real) set in place to make it happen.  Bucking the current system may not be easy - but I don't think it to be impossible either.

----------


## Bill West

> In the public's mind - I would venture a guess that the overwhelming majority couldn't give a TOSS if any form of education is "mandated" or not. This wasn't / isn't about the general public per se, but rather *opticianry as a profession trying to stay medically* and ethically relevant, as well as becoming truly economically viable for future generations of dispensers.
> 
> I think the ASE comparison is a good one. If enough opticians start their own movement, and do it on their own without the involvement of any state or federal legislative body, we can essentially create our own 'gold standard'. It will certainly take time, but with a proper focus, it could eclipse the bloated cash cow of the ABO and other like minded organizations. I believe grass roots can work here - there just has to be the interest, dedication and rewards (perceived or real) set in place to make it happen. Bucking the current system may not be easy - but I don't think it to be impossible either.


*What exactly does that mean ?

*

----------


## Uilleann

> What exactly does that mean ?


It should be rather clear.  The fact that perhaps it isn't to all of us here is disturbing to me.  And not meaning to throw barbs or anything Bill.  But this is one of the greatest problems as I see it in our profession today.  The general public expects their pharmacist to remain medically and ethically relevant.  All they're doing is filling a prescription.  We must stop dispensing opticianry's march to offering nothing more than a cheapened fashion accessory, sold at a fashion based retail outlet.   Raising our educational requirements *may* help to change this slightly, but I doubt it.

----------


## Fezz

Warren,

I looked at the scheduled meetings for the weekend. I see that you will be teaching classes from 11:00 on thru the day. I believe that earlier in this thread you had mentioned a time for our little gathering. I am assuming that we will meet and have the presentation that Roy and yourself are giving before you dash off on your speaking schedule. I noticed that some others will be speaking most of the day as well. I was looking forward to a gathering of the minds, but it looks like that will not be the case.

----------


## wmcdonald

That will be the case. We begin at 8:00 AM. Roy and I will do some presentations to the group and then we will be discussion. My 11:00 session will be a continuation of that. We will also continue into the afternoon. It will be a day......and evening event and hopefully iron out some plans for the future!

I look forward to this more than anything I can remember!

Warren

----------


## Fezz

> My 11:00 session will be a continuation of that. 
> 
> Warren


So...............those of us that are not registered will be excluded from that continuation?

----------


## wmcdonald

No. We will have nmore than enough time to spend. I have it under control. When I am out (after the three hours of the initial meeting, Roy and others will speak. I will be spending most of the day Saturday and Sunday to our efforts.

----------


## Bill West

> so correct me if i am wrong, barry. No real harm should not even require we hold a professional a license, correct? Licenses are there to protect the public, and if we can do no harm, then maybe we should not require them? I totally agree, unless we are moving towards a higher level of service. Opticians were licensed in the us basically because we were able to prove we may cause harm to the human eye because we fitted contact lenses in the initial states. Those that followed did it based on the neighboring states licensure. I want to see us do more, as many others do. I want to move beyond spectacle dispensing, adding more clinical services including low vision and contact lenses. We should be able manage.....and not just say we are managers, but know the real way to manage an organization. I want to see us expand into other clinical areas. Refraction is one, if we get the requisite education and training. We could be the pas and nps of the eye care world. The way it is now, anyone can do what we do legally in most places. We must do better!
> 
> I am not so sure i agree with your concept of the public's willingness to pay for "excellence". We expect excellence from our health care providers. You go to a physician and expect they have achieved some level of competence. Opticians have fooled them too long. The study done in ny in the 90s indicated that the consumer thought we held a bachelors degree, like pharmacists back then. They expect we have some level of education that prepares us for practice, and sadly that is not correct. I know..... Ny, and florida (that is a lower borough, isn't it?), nc and a few others require something to get in, but even in most licensed states it is simple. We have to do better. We need to develop a focused organization to lead us into the future. I want to see opticians continually improve out lot, and we have not done that. We have sat on our posteriors and watched,* as ods advanced*. We must do better!
> 
> I appreciate your comments, but i also wish you would address the question posed in paragraph 2 of my initial post. Is the cpa concept regarding testing one we need to adopt? The abo is ridiculously simplistic for someone with any level of education. If we tighten up a bit, and demand that opticians at least know some optics, we will be better for it. Education is key to our success. Letting anyone with a pulse take a basic exam does not make them a professional as many seem to feel. We must do better!
> 
> Warren


Od's have advanced to the point that it cost them $125k to get there so they can work for a chain to pay off debt and dispense a few drugs that they could not dispense years ago. They are the ones that should be refractionst and stop calling themselves "Medical Optometrist", if they want to be md's go on and get the degree. I feel the same way about opticians, if you want to refract become an OD then you can work for the chains to pay your debt. I am not opposed to higher learning but I am opposed to trying to change the *definition of a dispensing Optician*. Being better than average is a choice and I would agree that we should have better educated people but not to the point that they become "indebted servants" to their masters the teachers of learning and the associations and state boards. I have always thought that the schools in NC., FL., and VA., were quite good and they are if the staff is well taught. The fact is that you or Roy would not teach in these schools because the pay would not be good enough. The student can only learn form the teacher so why not concentrate on getting *better teachers* for these schools and turn out better Opticians. Two years in school and one year on the job. Also the seminars we sit in for years and hear the same ole same ole and learn absolutely nothing new is a shame and a disgrace. If we are required to get the hours then the state board and the NCOA should provide better and more qualified speakers and maybe have two hours of a real good seminar. I really think you people are going at it in the wrong way but then you know me, I'm most always the maverick.

----------


## wmcdonald

Bill,
Why not come to Atlanta and share your views. We will disagree, but we always did until I had you appointed to our board, and you eventually became President! I wanted someone with differing views, unlike most of the leaders we see today. Let me show you the ideas we have in some depth and you may have a different view. Expanding scope is not a bad thing! Both Roy and I have taught in Opticianry schools, by the way. Would I go back now to a community college? No. I am a tenured full professor at my university and simply could not. But I remain committed to improving Opticianry as a profession. I have lectured countless times for states that could not afford a speaker on my dime, and provided a great deal of time and effort that many will never know about. I hope you are implying our interest here is financial, because that would be insulting and far from the truth. The only way to improve is through education. It is not about refraction, although techs do it all the time, and the last time I checked, not one single patient has died! If techs can do it, why not us? We can do more, but it starts with an education. Join with us and lets talk.


Warren

----------


## Barry Santini

The facts are already in:

The general public is not at risk of significant harm if their eyewear is attended by somewhat-less-than-comprehensively-trained-or-schooled ophthalmic dispensers.

"Adequate" should be the term of choice here.

However, true excellence in the craft of ophthalmic dispensing is as Bill, Diane, Mary Lou and others have described.

The only place where I disgree is with Bill W's admonishment that opticians who want to "refract" should be optometrists.

I'll leave it to other optiboarders to further make their case here. I'm already well-convinced of the need for opticians to have a working knowledge of refractive process.

FWIW

B

PS - I wish I could attend Atlanta, but I have too many performance conflicts.

----------


## wmcdonald

Unfortunately we cannot advance without education. We are in fact declining. To improve our competitive position we need to be seeking an expansion into new areas of professional service, whether it be refraction or something different. To remain as we are is not possible, and will kill us off completely. Anyone can do what we do in 27 states, and quite franlkly, have not shown to be a substantial risk to the public.  In NY, you are in a different world. Try Nebraska, where the requirements to be an Optician is a pulse! There are some very good folks out there struggling to gain some kind of recognition. We want to level the requirements across the country. Wish you could be there.

----------


## Bill West

Warren,
I would never imply that you or Roy were doing this for gain. I just simply, or in my case maybe simple, do not agree that refraction is a key to advancing Opticianary. I don't see anything wrong with it except it begins to cross lines and in NC that can be an expensive thing.  I really believe Dispensing Opticians should be taught to be the best at that, dispensing. I don't think it would help to call them "Refracting Opticians" just as I don't think it helps an OD to call themselves a "Medical Optometrist". Seems to me just a status quo thing, expensive though it may be. I can remember when the OD's were independent and knew how to run a business and give a top notch RX and were proud of the profession. I truly believe that Optometry Schools convinced these people that more is better and it sure cost more. If you look at the Optometrist you find many right out of school that must seek employment asap anywhere they can find it. Some go to chains, some to work with MD's, but few become independent. This is the same with Opticians. I would like to see more independents period. Why is it we never teach business courses to these folk? Starting with how to choose a location, things to do and things not to do. You will never advance the cause of Opticians or Optometrist until you teach them how to be INDEPENDENT.
Sincerely,
Bill West, maybe not the best, but the most independent of Opticians, dispensing that is, and proud of it. Thanks for all you do.

----------


## Barry Santini

> Warren,
> You will never advance the cause of Opticians or Optometrist until you teach them how to be INDEPENDENT.


AMEN!

and....AMEN!

B

----------


## wmcdonald

> Warren,
> I would never imply that you or Roy were doing this for gain. I just simply, or in my case maybe simple, do not agree that refraction is a key to advancing Opticianary. I don't see anything wrong with it except it begins to cross lines and in NC that can be an expensive thing. I really believe Dispensing Opticians should be taught to be the best at that, dispensing. I don't think it would help to call them "Refracting Opticians" just as I don't think it helps an OD to call themselves a "Medical Optometrist". Seems to me just a status quo thing, expensive though it may be. I can remember when the OD's were independent and knew how to run a business and give a top notch RX and were proud of the profession. I truly believe that Optometry Schools convinced these people that more is better and it sure cost more. If you look at the Optometrist you find many right out of school that must seek employment asap anywhere they can find it. Some go to chains, some to work with MD's, but few become independent. This is the same with Opticians. I would like to see more independents period. Why is it we never teach business courses to these folk? Starting with how to choose a location, things to do and things not to do. You will never advance the cause of Opticians or Optometrist until you teach them how to be INDEPENDENT.
> Sincerely,
> Bill West, maybe not the best, but the most independent of Opticians, dispensing that is, and proud of it. Thanks for all you do.


But Bill.......this thread is not about refraction. It is about improving Opticianry. It is nearly impossible to define the "best" form of dispensing. Opticianry is beyond the borders of NC and I am about a national movement to help others not as fortunate.

----------


## wmcdonald

> AMEN!
> 
> and....AMEN!
> 
> B


Barry and Bill,
I love independance, but to accomplish that we must expand a bit. Or, we could see if we can somehow liit dispensing to Opticians only. Good luck on that! As we currently exist, we cannot survive, because in 27 states ANYONE can do what it is we do. If you feel as though we cannot advance, then so be it. Your opinions are noted. I, for one, will not give up just yet.

Warren

----------


## Fezz

> But Bill.......this thread is not about refraction. It is about improving Opticianry. It is nearly impossible to define the "best" form of dispensing. Opticianry is beyond the borders of NC and I am about a national movement to help others not as fortunate.


Warren

Here we see once again, that not even our very own *Best and Brightest* are grasping or comprehending the concept of what we are trying to start here! I get more and more discouraged with every post in this thread. I think our cause is just, I think it is the right way to proceed, I believe in you and Roy, and I am committed to step up and not step aside! When you say to me and the others to trust you..........Brother, I am right there!!!!

I got to admit though..........stepping aside sure seems a helluva lot easier after following this thread! It is a shame that more folks on here do not have the Gusto to TRY!

Step up............or step aside!
Stand up and make a difference!
Be part of the solution.....not part of the problem!
Put your money and your time where your mouth is!

----------


## wmcdonald

Thanks Fezz. I appreciate the kind words. I will never give up. As my old friend, Jim Valvano said in his famous ESPN speech prior to his untimely death from cancer....."Never Give Up!". If we get a small group to come together in Atlanta, we can move forward. Others will then want to jump on the train, and in fact, will begin to get excited. I look forward to the session, and afterwards!

----------


## Uilleann

Wait I thought that was Commander Taggart in Galaxy Quest...

Either way - so has the focus now shifted from simply raising education minimums, and establishing more of a national average of shiny new opticians to expanding their scope?  Quite a turn...

----------


## Johns

So, whom among the Optiboarders will actually be there?

-WMC
-Roy
-Judy (I think)
-Johns
-Harry Chilling
-???

----------


## Wes

I have the weekend off and plan to attend barring any unforseen circumstances.  Hotlanta is only 4 hrs away.  Three the way I drive.

----------


## Diane

> So, whom among the Optiboarders will actually be there?
> 
> -WMC
> -Roy
> -Uilleann
> -Judy (I think)
> -Johns
> -Harry Chilling
> -???


As Education Chair of the SEOC meeting.

Diane

----------


## wmcdonald

> Wait I thought that was Commander Taggart in Galaxy Quest...
> 
> Either way - so has the focus now shifted from simply raising education minimums, and establishing more of a national average of shiny new opticians to expanding their scope?  Quite a turn...


It has not turned at all. However, as new people find this lengthy thread, and I feel that is evidence of interest, the questions may appear to make it a bit take different twist. No changes.......just a potential beginning. I hope we have a great group. Fezz, Harry, Diane, Roy, Johns, Judy, and I am sure many others will be the initial brain trust of this meeting. We will see what comes from it in a few weeks!

----------


## CNG

Dr. Mcdonald, I think the idea that you present here is really the start of our professions recovery. The only concern that I have and I'll bet that is in all opticians minds is how the ABO/NCLE going to react to your ideas. The ABO/NCLE makes money off our backs and it seems to be that the watering down of the tests is geared to allow more people to get certified. They make money from the testing and credit granting. We never hear of those in power. Why is that? In order to make a change it has to come from within we are told. Who are these people? Where are they? Do they have names? Will they be amiable to our new born ideals? I know opticianry is running out of time. Many of us cannot attend but our sincere prayers are with those who attend, that a plan is outline and hopefully carry out with full cooperation of the certifying organizations and their "Parents". Now where do we send the check...Make the website as friendly as this board. Thank you 

CNG

----------


## HarryChiling

> The ABO/NCLE makes money off our backs and it seems to be that the watering down of the tests is geared to allow more people to get certified. They make money from the testing and credit granting. We never hear of those in power. 
> 
> Why is that? 
> In order to make a change it has to come from within we are told. Who are these people? 
> Where are they? 
> Do they have names? 
> Will they be amiable to our new born ideals? 
> 
> I know opticianry is running out of time. Many of us cannot attend but our sincere prayers are with those who attend, that a plan is outline and hopefully carry out with full cooperation of the certifying organizations and their "Parents". Now where do we send the check...Make the website as friendly as this board. Thank you 
> ...


Lots of questions that have great answers, luckily every non-profit organization in the US has to make their financial data available.  In it is included the names of the executives and officers of the organization.  Any organization is not going to like any other organization to muscle in on it's turf so more than likely "No" I don't think they will like the idea of a new group.  Normally I wouldn't agree with a new group that is going to be doing the same thing as another group as it only creates a divide and we have too much of that a it is, but it is evident from this thread and many I talk too that the current organizations do not represent the interests of the profession.  

That's the true issue here many of us are sending in money to organizations and assuming that they have our interests in mind, but the organizations are failing us.  Warren you know I'll be there.

----------


## GAgal

> so, whom among the optiboarders will actually be there?
> 
> -wmc
> -roy
> -judy (i think)
> -johns
> -harry chilling
> -???


me!!!!

----------


## GAgal

> Step up............or step aside!
> Stand up and make a difference!
> Be part of the solution.....not part of the problem!
> Put your money and your time where your mouth is!


Amen!

----------


## gmc

Count me in.

I got my Florida license by drawing a paycheck in Alabama (unlicensed) for seven years, passing the ABO and NCLE exams, then passing the Florida board exam.

You shouldn't be able to get your license the way I did.

At 50, I don't see another degree in my future. I'm in for the long term betterment of the field for those that follow.

----------


## Fezz

> Count me in.
> 
> I got my Florida license by drawing a paycheck in Alabama (unlicensed) for seven years, passing the ABO and NCLE exams, then passing the Florida board exam.
> 
> You shouldn't be able to get your license the way I did.
> 
> At 50, I don't see another degree in my future. I'm in for the long term betterment of the field for those that follow.


 
Bravo!

You got GUSTO!

That's the way to step up!

It will be an honor to meet you and your first round (not golf.......ale) is on me!


:cheers::cheers::cheers:

----------


## kcount

> So, whom among the Optiboarders will actually be there?
> 
> -WMC
> -Roy
> -Judy (I think)
> -Johns
> -Harry Chilling
> -???


K-Dog will be in the house.  Staying at the Marriott (burning points) on the otherside of the mall.  Nice mall though, well what I remember of it from the mid-80's.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Dr. Mcdonald, I think the idea that you present here is really the start of our professions recovery. The only concern that I have and I'll bet that is in all opticians minds is how the ABO/NCLE going to react to your ideas. The ABO/NCLE makes money off our backs and it seems to be that the watering down of the tests is geared to allow more people to get certified. They make money from the testing and credit granting. We never hear of those in power. Why is that? In order to make a change it has to come from within we are told. Who are these people? Where are they? Do they have names? Will they be amiable to our new born ideals? I know opticianry is running out of time. Many of us cannot attend but our sincere prayers are with those who attend, that a plan is outline and hopefully carry out with full cooperation of the certifying organizations and their "Parents". Now where do we send the check...Make the website as friendly as this board. Thank you 
> 
> CNG


The directors of ABO/NCLE are all listed on the site, I think? If not, they are listed on this board in another thread some time back. These are all honorable people, and in fact some I have spoken with support our efforts. Will they as an organization support? No. They hold the reins to the certification agency. Where we made a huge mistake in days past was allowing the ABO/NCLE to become the tail wagging the dog. The profession now does not set it's standards, the directors of the ABO/NCLE do. They are the same people year-after-year, with little change. They are appointed by the professional organizations, but in reality remain on one or the other for many years. After 6 years on one, they then move to the other, maintaining the 2-term rule. This is unfortunate, because it does not develop new blood, with new ideas. Keep in mind that all of these people are my friends, but we differ on the future direction of Opticianry. We have had these conversations with them. But the profession should be in control of the funds from the certification agency, and should have a voice in standards. They feel they do, with the organizations doing the appointing, but with the same old folks in place, little change ever happens. It is funny, but many of those in place today were those who shouted the loudest about the length of time served by the former "old guard" that has now passed on. Once "in power" it is hard to give up the board meetings and power! Not only ABO/NCLE, but this country, needs STRICT term limits to develop our leaders of the future. 

Now, to us........we are not trying to rain on the ABO/NCLE parade, and in fact are not considering them. We see the need for something new and different. Let those who want to remain where they are to seek ABO/NCLE certification, and pray that they are happy. Let those who want more to find a new kind of place with us. This thread was initially to discuss the CPA requirements, versus the pulse and a check we require to sit for our exams. It morphed into an idea for this loosely organized "summit" to talk about the direction we need to take. The establishment of a new breed, like the CPA, that can market themselves legitimately as above the rest. Someone with the real education and training to withstand scrutiny from the public. Not just a high school graduate that took a VERY basic, 100-question multiple-choice exam. Establishing something better. I hope we can have some folks there, even those who disagree, because this must be for all. It must have a ground-swell of support that can be seen and heard across the country, no matter a licensed state or non-licensed. No matter where they are, Opticians with this new credential will be able to legitimately prove their professional status. If we see enough interest (and this lengthy thread speaks to that, at least in my mind), we will move forward based on the plan established. We will keep everyone posted.

I appreciate your prayers.

----------


## gmc

> The directors of ABO/NCLE are all listed on the site, I think? If not, they are listed on this board in another thread some time back.


They don't list the directors on their site. When I called to get a list of directors last year, they refused to give it to me.

Here's a link to the thread that has the list. Current as of last July.

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...6457-ABO-Board

Looking forward to that beer Fezz!

----------


## Wes

So I just looked at that list. It looks like a case of musical chairman. The new chairman is Curt Duff, and David Meldrum was a recent chairman as well. Its basically the same handful of guys, switching seats every few years. No wonder nothing new comes of it.

----------


## gmc

I have obtained the 990s (IRS returns for tax exempt organizations) for the ABO and NCLE for 2007 - 2009. If anyone would like copies, PM me and I'll e-mail them to you.

----------


## Fezz

Excellent article Warren!

http://www.ecpmag.com/1webmagazine/2...n-optician.asp

Thank you for all that you do for the betterment of our profession. I truley appreciate it!

----------


## Barry Santini

Fezz,
I too thought Dr. McDonald's article in ECP was well written.

However, where I disagree is when - and this is common anytime I hear about advanced levels of certification in opticianry - that certification (advanced or basic) in contact lenses is either necessary or essential for acknowledgement of higher-levels of dispensing accomplishment.  I also feel that many basics of CLs, such as tear film importance, should be included in basic dispensing education.  Although I am licensed and certified to fit contacts, I do not engage in this, nor have I for many, many years.  Yet, the absence of an immediate ability to fit today's CLs does NOT diminish what I feel are my skill sets in ophthalmic dispensing.

In my office, a master CL fitter runs his own CL practice.  He too is an optician, and he is well acknoledged as one of the finest CL fitters in the country.  He has  tended to the CL fitting needs of 3 major sports teams in our region.  He has also taught resident Ophthalmologists how to fit CLs.

Yet, if he was to be placed behind a dispensing desk tomorrow, he would have an epic FAIL, in much the same way that I would should I be required to change places with him.  CLs and eyewear are very different animals today.  Marrying advanced dispensing accomplishment to CL fitting is a mis-marriage, IMHO.

I's also luv to be part of the discussions in Atlanta, but this year my personal music commitments prevent me from doing so.  Do not mistake my call for emphasizing optician independence as not desiring to be part of this movement, especially if it REALLY means business and is willing to see it thorough. Although I may disgree with the current cirricullum in some of the schools today, I do fell that ONLY an classroom environment can ensure consistent standards in optical education.  Of course, field experience with live human beings counts for something important as well.

I know I've spoken of of being "tired" about fighting the fight, but I'm beginning to feel that there just may be enough suupport this time to get something done.

Gosh knows that the big chains could hugely benefit from an upgrade in the available candidates to work in there stores.

Barry

----------


## wmcdonald

Barry,
There is support from the masses. It is also important to remember that Opticianry began to dumb itself down when we seperated the primary functions Opticians performed, the design and of fitting specatcles and CLs. To advance, Opticians need to expand a bit, and the CL argument is the most strategically acceptable, because history shows our role in the development of the CL. We need to make certain all of this new breed is educated and trained in all facets of the field. There are others as well, outlined in the article. I appreciate your support, and want everyone to know that there is hope. We can make this happen.

Warren

----------


## YrahG

I know I said I would stop posting but I did want to comment on the contact lens issue as it is new to the thread, we have alwasy fit contact lenses the ability to do so has been stripped from our profession so getting that back is an important step to me as well and a logical "easy win" which can help to gain momentum.  I occasionally fit contact lenses but admit that my skills in the area are a bit rusty compared to my dispensing and opthalmic fabricateing skills.  I liked Barry's comments about having a contat lens master in house, he is a contact lens optician and you are a dispensing optician but at a certain point your educations should have started the same, he chose to specialize in contact lenses and Barry chose to specialize in fitting and dispensing of eyewear.  The post makes a great statement as to what is tryign to be accomplished in my eyes, expand the scope so that their is room to specialize in varying factes of our industry.  We're not a one horse show, it's time we make that evident.

Dr McDonald, great article and you summed up this thread and more in a few pages, bravo.

----------


## Johns

Just so this doesn't get lost...

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## Laurie

Thanks for bumping this John,

I am looking forward to seeing you and others at the SEOC meeting.

: )

Laurie

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## wmcdonald

It will be fun. I understand Diane Charles, President of OAA will be with us. She is a supporter of education and will be great to have in the meeting. I appreciate the excitement that continues regarding this thread.

Warren

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## gmc

Johns, you will probably be getting a visit from the Orbitz guy in the hovercraft. I booked the same hotel you did on Orbitz for $5.95 less for the two nights.

----------


## Johns

> Johns, you will probably be getting a visit from the Orbitz guy in the hovercraft. I booked the same hotel you did on Orbitz for $5.95 less for the two nights.


Giddyup!  That's what I'm talking about!:cheers:

----------


## Diopterman

> It will be fun. I understand Diane Charles, President of OAA will be with us. She is a supporter of education and will be great to have in the meeting. I appreciate the excitement that continues regarding this thread.
> 
> Warren


I may be out of line here, but doesn't her presence seem rather counter productive to your noble cause? Doesn't she run one of the very organizations, that many here feel, have prompted the need for a different voice, cause, effort? 

I have thought about coming, but if this is going to be the same Old Boy's and Old Girl's Club, I'd rather not waste my time, money and efforts! I would like to know what many of the rather vocal posters in this thread feel about this!

----------


## Johns

> I may be out of line here, but doesn't her presence seem rather counter productive to your noble cause? Doesn't she run one of the very organizations, that many here feel, have prompted the need for a different voice, cause, effort?


Not to stir pot, but I was wondering the same thing, and Diopterman just articulated it.  If 2 of us are thinking it, how many more have the same question?

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

> Not to stir pot, but I was wondering the same thing, and Diopterman just articulated it.  If 2 of us are thinking it, how many more have the same question?


I also was wondering about that. Maybe she'll be there to scope out the competition.

----------


## Johns

> I also was wondering about that. Maybe she'll be there to scope out the competition.


I don't want to turn this into an OAA bashing thread, but these are fair questions.  If we are looking to take the profession in a new direction, why would we have the same people that have been driving the bus invited on as tour guides?  How many people from the OAA will be there, and what will their purpose be?

Is this a way to attract new blood to the OAA, or new blood to a new association, with a new mission statement?  

I know for a fact that the folks associated with the OAA are all genuinely nice folks, and have the best of intentions.  I've met most of them, had lengthy discussions with them, and don't, for the most part, question their intentions.  I do think however, that if many of them had done a better job to begin with, this meeting wouldn't be necessary.

Thoughts?...

----------


## Diopterman

> I don't want to turn this into an OAA bashing thread, but these are fair questions. If we are looking to take the profession in a new direction, why would we have the same people that have been driving the bus invited on as tour guides? How many people from the OAA will be there, and what will their purpose be?
> 
> Thoughts?...


I hate to come out of *LURKER MODE*, but this thread really strikes home with me!

I appreciate Johns's comments. I do not want to bash any group, or individual. Heck, they may be the nicest, most well meaning folks on the face of the earth, but I was hoping for a fresh tour bus, with focused tour guides who are ready, willing, and able to make this tour worth it. I've been on the old tour, and I realize that it keeps going around in circles, stopping only long enough to change drivers!

Heck, next thing you know...................we will see names of board members from the NAO and ABO being tooted as guests of honor!

No thank you!

I will stay glued to this thread and I hope others will chime in as well. I believe in the cause, I respect those that have showed interest in attending, and I hope I can get over my concerns and attend!

**Back to lurker mode**

----------


## kcount

Let them show up.  I'm still going and will certainly be happy to tell the OAA what I think of their organization.  Oh and for the record I left a message for them on the answering maching almost 3 months ago, to date no answer. In the end this thread should show how frustrated we have become with the ABO and the OAA for that matter the NOA.  Time to set up the guillotine. The revolution is coming whether they want it or not.

----------


## gmc

I'm still coming. Let the members of any of the existing organizations voice their opinions. If there are enough of us looking for a different direction, they can get on board or get left behind.

----------


## Johns

Glad to hear from everyone that's "still" coming.  If nothing else, I plan on being there just to see if this is going to be a cause that I want to invest my time, money, and other resources in.  I feel that the larger the number of opticians in attendance, the less chance there is that this whole project will get "thrown under the bus".

----------


## kcount

Not to mention it will be nice to put a face with everyones names finally.

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## Fezz

> Not to mention it will be nice to put a face with everyones names finally.


It won't be so nice after you get a stare at some of the mugs on these folks!

Believe me, I have seen some of these clowns...........................it ain't nice!

----------


## Wes

> It won't be so nice after you get a stare at some of the mugs on these folks!
> 
> Believe me, I have seen some of these clowns...........................it ain't nice!


Hey at least I have two eyebrows...

----------


## wmcdonald

Folks,
President Charles is a guest of SEOC and I welcome her attendance. SHe needs to hear the voice of the people.

----------


## Fezz

> Folks,
> President Charles is a guest of SEOC and I welcome her attendance. _SHe needs to hear the voice of the people._


Why does she need to hear the voice of the people? What difference does it make whether she hears it or not?

----------


## hcjilson

The direction of OAA is controled essentially by it's directors who have been put in place by the membership. So in answer to Johns above, its the members who determine where OAA goes. If you want an organization to change direction you have to become involved members.

 In answer to Fezz above it is also important for the president of OAA to hear what opticians on the street want. You cannot change the direction of OAA from the outside, but you can expose the leadership of OAA to some new thoughts, and some new blood willing to pitch in and help effect those changes. I am excited to see the individuals who are charged with the future of this profession are willing to attend in GA and roll up their sleeves and go to work to make the OAA more effective and responsive to opticianry.

 Unfortunately I have a commitment which will keep me away but my friend Dr McDonald has a handle on what needs to be done and how it can be done. My suggestion to you all is to follow his lead. You will take small steps in the beginning but they will be enough to move in a new direction.

----------


## Fezz

Harry,

I have no desire to change the direction of the OAA. As far as I am concerned, they are dead to me. I am not looking at this gathering as a think tank to see how we can make the current organizations better. They have had plenty of time and enough people try to improve them. I personally feel it is time for something totally different.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Why does she need to hear the voice of the people? What difference does it make whether she hears it or not?


Harry has already commented, and I will not further, except to say that I welcome anyone who wishes to promote change. If something new comes frm this meeting, and quite frankly, I think it will, then great. If it gets others thinking about positive changes as well, the better for us all.

----------


## kcount

> Harry,
> 
> I have no desire to change the direction of the OAA. As far as I am concerned, they are dead to me. I am not looking at this gathering as a think tank to see how we can make the current organizations better. They have had plenty of time and enough people try to improve them. I personally feel it is time for something totally different.


+1

----------


## Rogo99

In reality, what have any of the organizations that supposedly represent independent opticians done since I've been in the business, the late 70's?   I see no national voice.  Insurance payments are not going up.  You can have all the credentials available, master's degrees, stickers for your doors and certifications, but you're still gonna get the same $X from VSP or Davis for each pair dispensed.  As far as I'm concerned, these organizations collect membership fees to perpetuate themselves.  Do they lobby? Do they fight for professional recognition?   Do they offer ideas on how to compete or try new business models?

----------


## kcount

> In reality, what have any of the organizations that supposedly represent independent opticians done since I've been in the business, the late 70's?   I see no national voice.  Insurance payments are not going up.  You can have all the credentials available, master's degrees, stickers for your doors and certifications, but you're still gonna get the same $X from VSP or Davis for each pair dispensed.  As far as I'm concerned, these organizations collect membership fees to perpetuate themselves.  Do they lobby? Do they fight for professional recognition?   Do they offer ideas on how to compete or try new business models?


I think that was the question I had for the OAA some time ago, wait I think I had the same question for the ABO. "Exactly what do you do for me or even opticianry as a whole?"

----------


## Laurie

Looking forward to this meeting of the minds, if we are to be open and creative, ALL must be welcomed with open arms.

Diane is a veteren optician, and not a good-ol'-boy(girl), IMHO.

Warren, exactly where and when are we meeting, I am hoping the meeting continues throughout the weekend, as I will have to be out of the room for much of the day on Saturday, CE classes to teach...

Please remind me, exactly where and at what time do we commence?

: )

Laurie

----------


## Johns

> It will be fun. I understand Diane Charles, President of OAA will be with us. She is a supporter of education and will be great to have in the meeting. I appreciate the excitement that continues regarding this thread.
> 
> Warren


Warren,

I have a question.  

Of the OAA folks that will be "stopping by", how many of them would (honestly) make the effort to join us, and for an entire weekend, if this were not held in conjunction with this event?  When we have the UnExpo, we intentionally have it in locations that are not hosting other optical events (Richmond, Myrtle Beach), so that we are all focused on the task at hand.

I'm envisioning a core group of people showing up, focusing on a strategy to invoke a change in the landscape of opticianry, while those that are attending the original event will be coming and going, popping in, adding tidbits, and leaving.

Is there a day/time when EVERYONE that has expressed an interest in this will be there...all at once?  Otherwise, I'm wonder how cohesive we can be, when it sounds like  many of the people will not be there for the duration, and will have to be briefed (or not) on what has been covered or what is going to be covered.

To me, it's like trying to build a building with 10 different sets of blueprints.

----------


## Fezz

Johns,

I share your concerns and questions as well. Many of us must understand, and take it for what it is worth, that some of the participants that will be coming and going are showing up because of venue! They are there already, so why not pop in, right? It is a matter of convenience! We must accept that some of these folks may be there for the wrong reasons. We must also accept that many of these folks, because of the positions they hold, the jobs they have, and their connections within the business, that they may be very guarded and coy with what they say and don't say. I understand that, but don't know if that is what is needed to carry this forward. Can we expect honesty and open discussions? It is my understanding that Warren will be starting us off at 8:00 with a presentation. I think Roy will be involved as well. Warren will be in classes from 11:00 on, if my memory serves me correctly. I wonder if two or three hours of focus, with participants wandering in and out, is enough to justify my 13+ hour drive thru the night friday. I envision a very dis-jointed blabber session that will leave many of us red eyed, irritated and even further disheartened with things?

Harry and I plan on rolling in early Saturday morning around 4-5:00 am-ish. I am hoping for positive results, but my hopes are fading faster than my cabernet is!

----------


## Fezz

> Looking forward to this meeting of the minds, if we are to be open and creative, ALL must be welcomed with open arms.


Really?

Why?

Are we honestly going to be open? Can all of the participants truly be open? Or is there too much at stake?

----------


## Laurie

Fezzy (and Johns), (and others thinking the same thing!)  : )

This venue was chosen after the edu event was already scheduled...can't knock us just because we already planned to be there... Just because some of us were pre-scheduled, does not make us 'in-an-and-out-blabbers'.

: )

Don't underestimate the power of momentum...I have no doubt that great ground-work will begin, lots of people from different areas will participate, and the after-the-fact work will continue the momentum and turn into action.  At the NFOS, we often have meetings at venues such as this, and while our three-day meeting does entail people going in and out to teach classes, we still get a ton of work done, and have grown many opt programs, particularly via internet learning.

Follow up is just as important, don't make pre-judgements...collectively, we can do this... 

: )

Laurie

----------


## Uilleann

I felt things getting very disjointed a while back in this thread - which is a large part of my choice to bow out this round.  This does feel (from afar mind you) to continue down that path.  I had hoped for some very vigorous email discussion, and some hard core pre-planning before we ever met, but even that was in essence summarily shot down as well.

I know that nothing will be done in the space of a few short hours - even if you were locked in conclave in the Vatican.  I fear more harm may come than good if people are unable (or unwilling) to attend for the duration - and most importantly of all - remain focused strictly on the task at hand.  Add to that mixture a smattering of directors, CEO's and board members from the very organizations that so many of us have completely lost faith in, or further many of us want nothing to DO with...and it smells like a recipe for disaster.

I hope it isn't.

----------


## Laurie

I remain optimistic, in my experience, I have learned that more work is done after the fact than during the brain-storming...  I know many of the participants, and have seen work that is greater than the sum of the whole.  After Sat, there is sat pm, and all day sunday...

Won't list my prof/volunteer accomplishments here, or others, like Warren, Johns, Diane, Harry and others, please trust that we know follow-up... it is the follow-up action that leads to change.  This is not a one-meeting event.

To quote ol' blue-eyes, 'the best is yet to come'.

...it won't happen in a day, but momentum is building, and, if you are wondering about personal motives (enrollment in opt colleges), I can tell you, that we do not personally gain from increased enrollment...we simply hire more facutly.  We are already 'capped' at our opt program, and at this point, looking to mentor new faculty to support new growth.

: )

----------


## HarryChiling

Any attempt by any organization to implement any ideas out of this meeting will be a change in a good direction. My fear is that if any organization born of this meeting will have to compete with already established organizations that attempt to implement any of the great ideas dreamed up in this meeting. I think that is the fear that is being expressed here, but let me the first to say Warren and Roy have both been pushing an agenda to make things better for many years and it has always fallen on deaf ears, so if this organization does nothing but push the competition to up their game it is still a "win" for the community as a whole. 

It does not matter who effects chnge as long as the change is real and tangable. No one and I mean no one is going to prevent this meeting and the momentum that is created, I think that is the most important thing here. As we get closer to the event I expect butterflies in the stomachs of the people attending and I expect pessimism, but those thoughts and feelings are just that feelings and thoughts. The real tangable evidence will be presented at teh meeting and those that attend will be in a position to realize change.  I hope that anyone attending will take the message and pass it along, theirs a new sheriff in town pass it on.

----------


## Fezz

> I know that nothing will be done in the space of a few short hours - even if you were locked in conclave in the Vatican.  I fear more harm may come than good if people are unable (or unwilling) to attend for the duration - and most importantly of all - remain focused strictly on the task at hand.  Add to that mixture a smattering of directors, CEO's and board members from the very organizations that so many of us have completely lost faith in, or further many of us want nothing to DO with...and it smells like a recipe for disaster.
> 
> I hope it isn't.


I am picking up what you are dropping Bro! I share your concerns. I am hopeful, but remain very doubtful!

I am still energized and excited about the possibilities that this meeting holds!

My goal has shifted though. I originally jumped on board planning to make a difference, to change what many of us find wrong. What I now feel is that I am eager to meet with like minded souls who share my passion for this business and who put their money where their mouths are! I want to meet and mingle with others who step up, not aside! I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem! I want to look into the eyes, and shake the hands of those that feel strongly enough about our profession to show up!

I want to know you, and know that WE tried TOGETHER to make a difference!

Will anything come of this event?

Oh yeah........................................................  many things will come from this!

----------


## Fezz

I would like anyone who is attending who has access to any audio/visual equipment to think about capturing this event. I know that I would want to review what is said, discussed, proposed, debated, and discarded at this gathering. I would imagine that there are many out in cyberland following this thread that wish they could be at this gathering, but can't, but would still like to know what transpired. 

I would think that being able to capture the magic and pass it on would only build momentum and excitement about this adventure. Imagine what could be accomplished if we could share the experience with others who may join the fight!! I think that it is essential that we capture and share this lightning in a jar!

What say you out there? This is not the first time this has been brought up! So far, it has fallen on deaf ears! Surely the educators who are planning on participating have used recording equipment to their benefit! Why can't we do that here? 

Any ideas? Do I have to buy a video recorder and audio recording equipment or what? I will if no one steps up, but SHEESH, this should already be taken care of by the smart ones of the group!

----------


## Fezz

> I would like anyone who is attending who has access to any audio/visual equipment to think about capturing this event. I know that I would want to review what is said, discussed, proposed, debated, and discarded at this gathering. I would imagine that there are many out in cyberland following this thread that wish they could be at this gathering, but can't, but would still like to know what transpired. 
> 
> I would think that being able to capture the magic and pass it on would only build momentum and excitement about this adventure. Imagine what could be accomplished if we could share the experience with others who may join the fight!! I think that it is essential that we capture and share this lightning in a jar!
> 
> What say you out there? This is not the first time this has been brought up! So far, it has fallen on deaf ears! Surely the educators who are planning on participating have used recording equipment to their benefit! Why can't we do that here? 
> 
> Any ideas? Do I have to buy a video recorder and audio recording equipment or what? I will if no one steps up, but SHEESH, this should already be taken care of by the smart ones of the group!



This is assuming that the participants speak and share openly, honestly and without reserve.

You are not afraid of putting your thoughts and ideas on record...............are you? 

Or are you?

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

----------


## Fezz

> I think that is the fear that is being expressed here, but let me the first to say Warren and Roy have both been pushing an agenda to make things better for many years and it has always fallen on deaf ears, so if this organization does nothing but push the competition to up their game it is still a "win" for the community as a whole.


This makes me wonder why we haven't heard from any of the few remaining state opticianry societies! Surely they have an interest in the future of our profession. Poor Warren and Roy have been screaming this for longer than some of us have been sucking air! Why aren't they chiming in? Where are they? 

Are they even aware that Optiboard exists? Are they aware of our movement? Do they support it? What do they have to say? Are they "Partnered" with the OAA? Why hasn't the OAA chimed in? Obviously they are aware of the upcoming gathering. 

No official comment from anybody?

Somebody?


****CRICKETTS****

**********MORE CRICKETTS**********

********************EVEN MORE CRICKETTS********************


That is what I thought..................................

----------


## Wes

> Hey at least I have two eyebrows...


ok so Fezz and someone else, who've seen Fezz' eyebrow, gave me kudos on this. I gotta know; who was it?

----------


## Wes

Fezz, I want some of what you"ve been smoking.

----------


## Wes

and dont say eyebrows!

----------


## Fezz

> Fezz, I want some of what you"ve been smoking.


Carter Hall in a fine Missouri Meerschaum Corn Cob pipe!

I may break out the elk antler peace pipe, stuff it full of kinnick-kinnick and give it hell before I turn in for the night!

----------


## Bill West

Let's see now, we meet to create a new association and invite the president of the old to tell us why we should continue to support the old. If you don't like the way these associations are going, stop supporting them with your money. I stopped supporting the ABO and the NCLE many years ago. If you are to have a new voice then meet and everyone start by putting up $500.00 and commiting to pay another $500.00 in six months. These should be dues and must be paid by ALL MEMBERS YEARLY. Nothing gets done, and I do mean NOTHING, without huge amounts of money. So if this is a serious effort, lets see the cash, otherwise it's just an ego trip and a way to socialize.

----------


## wmcdonald

Bill,
We do not know if a new organization will come from this meeting, but I am glad to hear you want to contribute. The purpose of this summit is to determine the future direction of the profession, period. If a new group forms, then OK. Put your money where your mouth is, and join us in Atlanta. 

Warren

----------


## FVCCHRIS

I have not had the time to follow this thread, or any others for that matter lately. I miss spending time here mostly listening and sometimes posting. It seems to me some of my favorite "lecturers" here seem to have alot of time on their hands to operate the keyboards. I do not, but do spend some late night hours sifting through the threads when I can. I miss being here more often but I just can't. Are there alot more Opticians out there like myself who don't look at these threads all day long/ every day?? I'll bet there are. How will you people who attend this meeting plan to contact everyone out there who you think will want a chance to have an impact or "just" participate, while trying to stay afloat out there? I hope I'm on someone's mailing list but-- as is usually the case- now I gotta go!!!

I'm back! Now, I guess an analogy would be HOW and WHO is going to ride herd and gather all the strays before heading to market? Is there enough rope out there and will some of us "old timers" survive the round-up? My neck hurts already.

----------


## Ginster

[QUOTE=Fezz;348464]I would like anyone who is attending who has access to any audio/visual equipment to think about capturing this event. I know that I would want to review what is said, discussed, proposed, debated, and discarded at this gathering. I would imagine that there are many out in cyberland following this thread that wish they could be at this gathering, but can't, but would still like to know what transpired. 

I am not able to make the meeting, but would love to be there, I would be wiling to purchase a copy of the meeting from anyone who will record it. I have heard Warren's message and strongly support his cause, I live in Texas, I've seen the horror stories first hand. Wish I could be there, but I can"t, so the next best thing for me would be to see it in dvd. Thank You Fezz for suggesting this.

Best Regards to all,

Ginny

----------


## Fezz

> I am not able to make the meeting, but would love to be there, I would be wiling to purchase a copy of the meeting from anyone who will record it. I have heard Warren's message and strongly support his cause, I live in Texas, I've seen the horror stories first hand. Wish I could be there, but I can"t, so the next best thing for me would be to see it in dvd. Thank You Fezz for suggesting this.
> 
> Best Regards to all,
> 
> Ginny


Thanks Ginny, but.................................I am not the first to bring this up! A few other folks have brought it up and nothing came of it. I am hoping that the organizers/presenters will chime in on this matter. My concern is that they may not want what is said on record. Or, they may not want what other participants have to say on record. I also am worried that if things are recorded, that some people may not be as *OPEN* as they would be if there was not a record of what was said. It is my feeling that many of the participants will be very guarded with what they say because of their positions on boards, their jobs, contacts in the business, future opportunities, etc.

----------


## rbaker

> Thanks Ginny, but.................................I am not the first to bring this up! A few other folks have brought it up and nothing came of it. I am hoping that the organizers/presenters will chime in on this matter. My concern is that they may not want what is said on record. Or, they may not want what other participants have to say on record. I also am worried that if things are recorded, that some people may not be as *OPEN* as they would be if there was not a record of what was said. It is my feeling that many of the participants will be very guarded with what they say because of their positions on boards, their jobs, contacts in the business, future opportunities, etc.



Do you feel that the old Mafia adage applies here?

_"Never write when you can speak, never speak when you can nod, never nod when you can wink._"

As a final resort, there's an old saying that three can keep a secret - as long as two are dead.

----------


## Uilleann

Bingo.

----------


## hcjilson

You're not dealing with National secrets here, this is a meeting of those who would like to map out a future for this profession to change the direction it now seems to be heading. It is a positive thing, not negative. Forget about the tape recordings and take good notes. No one's future is at risk attending this meeting. Either you believe in it or you don't. Obviously those who attend believe in it, no one could hold that against them.

----------


## YrahG

I beg to differ with your points Harry.

It may not be a national secret, but the OAA (as an example) and many of the other organizations have heard many of the things that will be discussed and they have not seen a need to implement anything NEW.  If the meeting puts a fire under the rumps to implement some changes that benefit our profession it will only be generic and will last as long as the momentum for change lasts, then it's back to the same ol' same ol'.  (Usually drinking and hooking up with women at a bar, YES I HAVE PROOF THIS IS NOT AN UNFOUNDED STATEMENT)  I call for a changing of the guards, that is the only way I would personally put any faith in the current organizations, even then the snakes have been in their so long they know all the back doors back in.

My opinion is that only something new can even have a chance.  I don't like having that opinion because that means a lot of work to even get to a point where there can be discussion of change.  I don't believe by the attitudes here that this group will make much of a difference.  Many here are willing to throw the towel in because it *might* be tough.  I for one know for a fact that it will be tough and if tough isn't a cup of teat that anyones interested in then you might as well save your money and take a real vacation where you don't have to be stuck in a room with a stuffy ol bunch of rednecks (sorry but everyone knows as an optician you are 85%+ chance of being red in the neck so I hope no one resents that comment as much as I represent that comment).

----------


## YrahG

Has anyone personally invited any prominent optometrists, ophthalmologists, or retail executives?  It seems only fitting that any attempt to move this profession forward would need some sort of input from the major forces of opposition in our profession.

----------


## Fezz

> Has anyone personally invited any prominent optometrists, ophthalmologists, or retail executives?  It seems only fitting that any attempt to move this profession forward would need some sort of input from the major forces of opposition in our profession.



I'll try to recruit Dr. Gary Gerber. He seems to know everything! I'll bet he will have an answer as to what direction we should take!

If nothing else, maybe he could dazzle us with card tricks to keep some of us red eye types from nodding off!!

----------


## Fezz

As for a real attempt at getting a prominent OD or MD involved.............There are several on Optiboard who have shown about as much interest in this gathering as most opticians have!

I wish folks like Drk, Ilahn and few others would step up, join hands and help pave the way?

----------


## Fezz

I assume that recording the presentations and conversations would be promoted by those running this gathering. My ale soaked brain considers capturing the moment very beneficial to the cause. I would imagine that there are very many folks following this thread who can not attend, yet they want to be part of this movement. Would having a recording of some sort of the business be beneficial to those that can not attend? Would our cause benefit by recording the presentations, the discussions, the debates, etc.? I doubt that many of us possess the short hand skills to take proper notes as has been suggested.

I would assume that being able to distribute a copy of the happenings would make many feel like they are involved. The more that we have involved, the better chance of change we have. Why should those that believe in our cause be excluded just because they can not make this event? Is it to our benefit to try and get as many folks onboard as we can?

What say you?

----------


## Fezz

> I would assume that being able to distribute a copy of the happens would make many feel like they are involved. The more that we have involved, the better chance of change we have._ Why should those that believe in our cause be excluded just because they can not make this event_? Is it to our benefit to try and get as many folks onboard as we can?
> 
> What say you?


Or, should they be excluded because they could not make the event?

Put up or shut up?

You are either in, or out?

It means enough, or doesn't mean enough?

Where do you stand?

Why?

----------


## BMH

It seems it would be beneficial to have a record of the event, if for nothing more than review. If there are multiple people coming up with good ideas or points of interest how are the attendees going to digest it all.

My other thought is... For those attending, are you going to go back to your home area and spread the word? For lack of a better comparison it seems it would need to be like a pyramid scheme. I'll tell two people and they tell two and so on and so on. If this is really going to be an effort to affect Opticianry that means all Opticians, not just those that can attend. I can say I'll be willing to put myself out there and talk to lots of people, but talk to them about what?


I sure hope something comes of this!!!!!!!

----------


## Fezz

I have contacted several sources for recording services. I am in talks with several high school teachers who are involved with school plays, choir and band presentations, and award presentations to get their input as to what I need to do to get this event on record for those that are interested. I am also meeting with several church A/V people who have offered to help. 

I am not sure how the collective group feels about this as of yet. Some may say it is a good thing, some may think it the worst. Some will say, that if you really cared, you would have showed up, some will say the more the merrier.

I want to be prepared either way!

How about you?

----------


## Johns

I thinks that it's a good thing, but on the other hand, will input/brainstorming be constricted due to the fact that the attendees will chose their words more carefully realizing it will be endlessly reviewed?  

I'm a stream of consciousness kind of guy, and some of my best ideas (and worst) come out before my brain is engaged.  Often a good thing, sometimes not...

----------


## rbaker

Without the support of the individual states any attempt to upset the status quo will be for naught. Therefore, I would think that you would want to include as many "influential" persons as possible in your deliberations whether they can actually be there or not. If you want to have any influence on the future you must put aside all of your petty personal agendas and place the welfare of the craft first. It has been my experience that the main impediment to the growth of the craft has been elitism among its supposed leadership.

Please consider something like GoToMeetings.com and perhaps a separate forum on OptiBoard. There are many individuals who support what you are doing who could make valuable contributions either with ideas, labor or financial support and their inability to attend this particular meeting should not be an impediment to their participation.

----------


## FVCCHRIS

> Without the support of the individual states any attempt to upset the status quo will be for naught. Therefore, I would think that you would want to include as many "influential" persons as possible in your deliberations whether they can actually be there or not. If you want to have any influence on the future you must put aside all of your petty personal agendas and place the welfare of the craft first. It has been my experience that the main impediment to the growth of the craft has been elitism among its supposed leadership.
> 
> Please consider something like GoToMeetings.com and perhaps a separate forum on OptiBoard. There are many individuals who support what you are doing who could make valuable contributions either with ideas, labor or financial support and their inability to attend this particular meeting should not be an impediment to their participation.


Was wondering when Dick would join the discussion. Actually I'd vote for him to lead the charge but I think way down deep inside he's saying-Here they go again. How 'bout it Dick, wanna be part of the "Group of Eight" or however many it takes to "fly" this latest version of the "United Opticians Airline" ? Chris.

----------


## kcount

I still find it interesting that we haven't heard from the OAA or the ABO.  Where are they? We are talking about revolution and they sit quiet?  Why are they not out here trying to shape this thing?

Or...... are they already here?

----------


## Fezz

> I still find it interesting that we haven't heard from the OAA or the ABO. Where are they? We are talking about revolution and they sit quiet? Why are they not out here trying to shape this thing?
> 
> Or...... are they already here?


Forget about them, what about all of the individual state societies! Where are they? I would imagine the prospect of what could come of this meeting would be of interest to them!

----------


## kcount

> Forget about them, what about all of the individual state societies! Where are they? I would imagine the prospect of what could come of this meeting would be of interest to them!


I cant speak for other states but the IL state society is.... no where.  Every now and then I'll here something about a state society but I have never met a member.  You'd think there would be officers out talking to other opticians, pressing the flesh, getting the roster filled in.  Oh wait, thats what we're going to be doing for the Registered Opticians Association... right?  


Right?

----------


## YrahG

Is everyone else on this thread getting a PM about their opinion when they post?

I know my opinions are not the most popular but I thought I was entitled to them, I have hcjilson constantly PM'ing me, changing my posts and generally being aggressive towards me and this is somehow tolerated on this forum.  My opinions have not been the most popular but they have been thought out and have provided some insight I would hope.  If anyone else is recieving the kinds of PM's that I have then I would say this meeting will be a horrible failure and will result in the same ol same ol.  This meeting despite it's intentions is slowly turning into another good ol boys back patting event.

----------


## Fezz

> Is everyone else on this thread getting a PM about their opinion when they post?
> 
> I know my opinions are not the most popular but I thought I was entitled to them, I have hcjilson constantly PM'ing me, changing my posts and generally being aggressive towards me and this is somehow tolerated on this forum. My opinions have not been the most popular but they have been thought out and have provided some insight I would hope. If anyone else is recieving the kinds of PM's that I have then I would say this meeting will be a horrible failure and will result in the same ol same ol. This meeting despite it's intentions is slowly turning into another good ol boys back patting event.


 
PM sent!

----------


## YrahG

> PM sent!


Thank you.

----------


## Jana Lewis

I'm not all that "important" but I am committed to my profession. What should us "non-import" schuckters do? Sit back while our wonderful leadership that has really taken this profession places take the reins? Again? 

I won't be fooled again.

----------


## hcjilson

> Is everyone else on this thread getting a PM about their opinion when they post?
> 
> I know my opinions are not the most popular but I thought I was entitled to them, I have hcjilson constantly PM'ing me, changing my posts and generally being aggressive towards me and this is somehow tolerated on this forum.  My opinions have not been the most popular but they have been thought out and have provided some insight I would hope.  If anyone else is recieving the kinds of PM's that I have then I would say this meeting will be a horrible failure and will result in the same ol same ol.  This meeting despite it's intentions is slowly turning into another good ol boys back patting event.


As usual Yrahg distorts the facts, whch is neither here nor there. It denigrates* this* thread which was the reason for my PM to begin with. His less than well thought out post added nothing to this thread, to say nothing of the post quoted here.

----------


## YrahG

> I beg to differ with your points Harry.
> 
> It may not be a national secret, but the OAA (as an example) and many of the other organizations have heard many of the things that will be discussed and they have not seen a need to implement anything NEW. If the meeting puts a fire under the rumps to implement some changes that benefit our profession it will only be generic and will last as long as the momentum for change lasts, then it's back to the same ol' same ol'. (Usually drinking and hooking up with women at a bar, YES I HAVE PROOF THIS IS NOT AN UNFOUNDED STATEMENT) I call for a changing of the guards, that is the only way I would personally put any faith in the current organizations, even then the snakes have been in their so long they know all the back doors back in.
> 
> My opinion is that only something new can even have a chance. I don't like having that opinion because that means a lot of work to even get to a point where there can be discussion of change. I don't believe by the attitudes here that this group will make much of a difference. Many here are willing to throw the towel in because it *might* be tough. I for one know for a fact that it will be tough and if tough isn't a cup of teat that anyones interested in then you might as well save your money and take a real vacation where you don't have to be stuck in a room with a stuffy ol bunch of rednecks (sorry but everyone knows as an optician you are 85%+ chance of being red in the neck so I hope no one resents that comment as much as I represent that comment).


Correct me if I am wrong but there was talk of throwing the towel in by a few because of a difference of opinion.  I can't see that as being a good start, leaders should do better.  The redneck statement was a joke and I ribbed myself with that one as well so I can't see how that offended you so much.  As for the sorry state of affairs our associatiosn are in that is a FACT at this point, I hav eseen it first hand, I know others that have seen it first hand, not to mention the many on this thread alone that seem disenfranchised.  Correct me if I am wrong but those are your cronies Mr Jilson, how many of them are personal friends of yours?  Can your opinion be counted as biased?  I think before you start looking for faults in my statements you need to evealuate your position then speak.




> Has anyone personally invited any prominent optometrists, ophthalmologists, or retail executives? It seems only fitting that any attempt to move this profession forward would need some sort of input from the major forces of opposition in our profession.


I don't see how this couldn't be constructive.  Traditionally these forces have been the opposition, I think the landscape has changed enough where we may see more benefits in working together than as opposing forces, however without any open dialog the reflex response would be the status quo which is to oppose our efforts.




> As usual Yrahg distorts the facts, whch is neither here nor there. It denigrates* this* thread which was the reason for my PM to begin with. His less than well thought out post added nothing to this thread, to say nothing of the post quoted here.


It is here and it is there, if you are going to make a statement then back it up or shut it up.  I am familiar enough with the rules to know that it is really oyu skirting th edge here, either you are callign me a liar and can prove I am a liar or you need to reverse your course.  My posts were thought out enough, I don't understand why I owe you a 30 page thesis as to why my opinion is valid when others can post in this thread without recourse, this is a double standard that you seem to be holding me to that you or others on this thread do not hold yourselves to.  If you have some sort of vendetta against me old man just get it off your chest and move on.

----------


## YrahG

> I'm not all that "important" but I am committed to my profession. What should us "non-import" schuckters do? Sit back while our wonderful leadership that has really taken this profession places take the reins? Again? 
> 
> I won't be fooled again.


 
Neither will I am I don't think I have to apoligize for being ticked off at those "wonderful leaders".

----------


## Now I See

> Or, should they be excluded because they could not make the event?
> 
> Put up or shut up?
> 
> You are either in, or out?
> 
> It means enough, or doesn't mean enough?
> 
> Where do you stand?
> ...


Well, I'm a little biased here, because I cannot come.  So my answer to your question is..... _**insert drum-roll here**_ .....No, please do not exclude those that have expressed and interest, but cannot attend.

----------


## Now I See

> I still find it interesting that we haven't heard from the OAA or the ABO. Where are they? We are talking about revolution and they sit quiet? Why are they not out here trying to shape this thing?
> 
> Or...... are they already here?


Maybe they are out there....Maybe they want to see what kind of ideas come out of this meeting (or a group of meetings). Maybe those of you who attend will come up with ideas (and we can incorporate them with ideas from those of us who cannot attend) about what we want to see happen with respect to our profession, and also some ideas of how to make that happen. Maybe once the meeting is over we can present the ideas to the national and state societies, professionally, in person...maybe they will listen and we can work together to make something great happen. Just a dream?? Maybe, but maybe not...maybe the "societies" are tired and ready for some fresh ideas.   :Confused: :)

----------


## Johns

I think it's very important to keep in mind that regardless of their motivation, or their results, the leaders in all organizations we deal with are usually there because nobody else stepped up to the plate.

How many of us have been to any of these meetings?  I know many have, and they are some of the most frustrated at this point; but others have not even joined, but still talk about "nothing getting done".

Show up, but not to "see what happens". Show up to see what you can make happen.  This shouldn't be a spectator sport.

Also, I would really like to see some type of schedule, but more importantly, an agenda that can be reviewed, so we have some idea of what to bring to the table.

----------


## wmcdonald

Folks,
This is only a start. There will need to be countless meetings......not just this one! Time will need to be invested. There is some real passion (and serious frustration) expressed here that comes from years of poor planning, and other misplaced values. I agreed to put the group together based on comments from this thread, and personal communication with many others. Dr. Ferguson agreed to work with us as well. But remember, nothing is set n stone. It is a meeting to hear ideas and directions the group feels is important, and that needs to be done collectively. If you feel that is not the thing needed right now, then by all means wait until next time.......if there is one. It will depend on the attendance. 

This is, unfortunately, a path often taken by Opticians. We begin bickering before we start! Some want a new organization, and if that is what the group feels is needed, then we will begin to move in that direction. Some want movie cameras in place. or G-to-Meeting broadcasts. Slow down and take a breadth.......lets see what happens first, before we start doing all that. If someone has a camera and wishes to record it, I welcome that, but I want all involved to approve of that recording. What I really wish we would come with is an open mind, and not a pre-determined outcome. This may be a monumental event, or a monumental flop. Join us at the summit and lets see what happens. Until then, be patient.......but remain positive. 

One last comment. Some of you here are really true heros to me. I appreciate the massive support we have received, and no matter what happens, you have given me hope for the future. Thanks!

----------


## YrahG

Mr Jilson if you edit my post at least keep your comments out of them. No matter how hard you try I will not be chased away, you actually make me want to post more. It is leaders like you that need to be removed.

----------


## Uilleann

Oh God.  Really?  The above is a shining example of why I won't be there.  :Mad:   Good luck.

----------


## YrahG

> Oh God. Really? The above is a shining example of why I won't be there.  Good luck.


So do you want a pitty party or a farewell party?

----------


## HarryChiling

I will not be attending this summit, and i will not be posting to this forum any longer.

----------


## Jana Lewis

> I will not be attending this summit, and i will not be posting to this forum any longer.


Why Harry? Don't GO!

----------


## wmcdonald

> I will not be attending this summit, and i will not be posting to this forum any longer.


Harry, You are one of the reasons we are doing this. Why?

----------


## Uncle Fester

> I will not be attending this summit, and i will not be posting to this forum any longer.


Call me a fool!

A Tragedy:

http://www.iwise.com/WzZWu

The forum is poorer in my opinion with your loss but I think I understand why.

So be it. :cry: 

edit- This post relates to the Board and not this particular thread.

----------


## Fezz

> I will not be attending this summit,



I pick up what you are dropping and I will walk arm in arm with you Bro.

I will not be attending either.

----------


## gmc

People, come to the meeting, and hear what is said before you decide this effort isn't worthwhile.

----------


## HarryChiling

> Call me a fool!
> 
> A Tragedy:
> 
> http://www.iwise.com/WzZWu
> 
> The forum is poorer in my opinion with your loss but I think I understand why.
> 
> So be it.
> ...


I didn't see this coming, up until today I had been trying to convince many here that it's a good idea to get together and hash something out.  What I didn't see coming was what happened on this thread.  That was a friend of mine that got banned from this board for expressing his opinions.  I have also been in the Harry Jilson cross hairs and can confirm that he is relentless in his "moderating" when he's got a bone to pick with you.

There is an elephant in the room or thread so let's just put it out there, "what happened to open communication".  I received a forwarded e-mail today that originated by a moderator that basically sounded like a strong arm to me and then less than a few minutes later I get a follow up call that the person has been banned.  I haven't seen all communications that went back and forth.  I get the feeling like I might be walking into the lions den, every day it seems someone new will be attending this event.  For Christs sake how much do you have to hor yourself out for a venue.  I see a lot of compromises to hold an event in a location that offers more inconveniences than conveniences.  From being involved with the Un Expo I can tell you the venue says a lot about the event and so far it's saying that the wrong element is going to be present or popping through.

----------


## HarryChiling

> People, come to the meeting, and hear what is said before you decide this effort isn't worthwhile.


The effort is worthwhile but the effort expended on those that are not going to attend is far too much.  No one is bringing anything of any substance up, if this is going to be the same view reiterated while many of the current national organizations leaders will be attending, then why not just attend the OAA's leadership conference, if your looking to get away from the status quo the go to the Un Expo.  I don't know why I would drive 15+ hours to get to a summit that I know nothing about, there has been no communication.

----------


## hcjilson

For your information Harry, and anyone else who is interested the only banning I did today was a spammer. Not to say I didn't want to have it out with the member in question, but I did this by PM so as not to move this thread off track. I have taken a hands off approach with this member so I wouldn't be accused of carrying out a vendetta. For your information and anyone else who cares to notice, the member in question has been disruptive, rude, and has violated a number of posting guidelines. He was adding nothing to this thread other than his warped idea of what is wrong with this profession. Just go back a few pages and see what he thinks of you. You don't have to look too hard.

If the loss of one member who really doesn't think much about our worth, or our future, is enough to derail this meeting, then all you have in the 26 pages which precede this one, is lip service. I thought better of you than that.

harry jilson

----------


## Bill West

> Alright, alright, alright!
> 
> I have to admit it!
> 
> I don't really think that anything of real substance will come of this gathering! 
> 
> I really believe that! 
> 
> Nothing of real substance could ever come from a meeting like this!
> ...


*HIP, HIP, HOORAY* ! Watch out for that banana peel, be careful where you step, guess that's why you "fell" out, huh. Why you almost had me convinced to go to this patriotic meeting to promote the lowly "Dispensing Optician" to a higher level, educated to refract. I am proud of the heritage of Dispensing Opticians in North Carolina. Permit me to name a few and forgive me if I leave out some because of a bad memory. 
Dr. Herb Ridgeway,O.D. and Optician, Bill Fluharty, Jack Armstrong, Harry Toler, Jack Southern, Warren Richardson, Ikey Layton, Frank McBride, and Warren's dad Mr. McDonald. These men fought the good fight, all the while working as business men and Dispensing Opticians. Because of them and those who saw their example and carried on the high standard set before them, North Carolina today has a strong licensing law, a great school Durham Tech, a strong association, The NCOA. We in North Carolina are proud of our profession and we should strive to better educate and prepare young people who desire to become DISPENSING OPTICIANS. It is an old and honorable profession and should never be done away with, not in name or deed. I have been honored to serve as President of the NCOA and have supported it for over 40 years. I have a son who schooled at Durham Tech and takes pride in being a "top notch Dispensing Optician". 
My advice to each group in each State is to come together and see the examples set forth by NC.,VA.,FLA.,TENN., MASS., NY., and other states that have licensing laws and boards that regulate. Form associations and invite men like Warren and Roy and Barry S to speak and listen and learn how to become educated and strong in your state. Set high standards but never tread on other peoples turf. Remember who you are and what you are and determine to become the very best at what you do. This has always been my focus. Best to you all. Bill

----------


## HarryChiling

> For your information Harry, and anyone else who is interested the only banning I did today was a spammer.


I was forwarded an email that shows otherwise, something along the lines of, "I think its time you laid off a bit. Your language should be improved in  the public forums."  I didn't know that saying PO'd was a cause for banning, I should have been kicked off myself about a million times by now.




> Not to say I didn't want to have it out with the member in question, but I did this by PM so as not to move this thread off track. I have taken a hands off approach with this member so I wouldn't be accused of carrying out a vendetta.


You know that I am literate and 20/20 corrected right.  I have read this thread and I don't see what your talking about, I also conversated with this person about a week or longer when you were changing posts, you were dead wrong on that front IMO and I have seen you do the same with other members here you get ona  rampage and it doesn't end pretty.




> For your information and anyone else who cares to notice, the member in question has been disruptive, rude, and has violated a number of posting guidelines.


Again maybe I am missing something but I think your responses in this thread have been more disruptive and rude.  I get it your a moderator and you have power can we discuss the topic outside of your opinion?




> He was adding nothing to this thread other than his warped idea of what is wrong with this profession. Just go back a few pages and see what he thinks of you. You don't have to look too hard.


I didn't see any reference to me in any previous posts or threads, I assume that being banned means no way of changing posts so unless you removed those comments about me I see nothing offensive towards me.  On the other hand if you did remove those posts about me you took away my opportunity to not only defend myself but you are changing posts.  




> If the loss of one member who really doesn't think much about our worth, or our future, is enough to derail this meeting, then all you have in the 26 pages which precede this one, is lip service. I thought better of you than that.
> 
> harry jilson


Lip service, it seems like your on the war path with me now right.  I've been here before little snarky comment on the side right.  How many days do I have before you exact your vengeance sheriff jilson.  Why is your opinion even on this thread, as someone who won't be attending just make your opinion and then bow out gracefully.

*I thought better of you than that.*

Are you joking me, I could care less about your opinion on me.  I curse like a sailor and I say what I mean and if I gave you my opinion of you well you'd have all the reason you needed to ban me.  Just save your comments for the next joker because I'm not having that.

----------


## HarryChiling

> *HIP, HIP, HOORAY* ! Watch out for that banana peel, be careful where you step, guess that's why you "fell" out, huh. Why you almost had me convinced to go to this patriotic meeting to promote the lowly "Dispensing Optician" to a higher level, educated to refract. I am proud of the heritage of Dispensing Opticians in North Carolina. Permit me to name a few and forgive me if I leave out some because of a bad memory. 
> Dr. Herb Ridgeway,O.D. and Optician, Bill Fluharty, Jack Armstrong, Harry Toler, Jack Southern, Warren Richardson, Ikey Layton, Frank McBride, and Warren's dad Mr. McDonald. These men fought the good fight, all the while working as business men and Dispensing Opticians. Because of them and those who saw their example and carried on the high standard set before them, North Carolina today has a strong licensing law, a great school Durham Tech, a strong association, The NCOA. We in North Carolina are proud of our profession and we should strive to better educate and prepare young people who desire to become DISPENSING OPTICIANS. It is an old and honorable profession and should never be done away with, not in name or deed. I have been honored to serve as President of the NCOA and have supported it for over 40 years. I have a son who schooled at Durham Tech and takes pride in being a "top notch Dispensing Optician". 
> My advice to each group in each State is to come together and see the examples set forth by NC.,VA.,FLA.,TENN., MASS., NY., and other states that have licensing laws and boards that regulate. Form associations and invite men like Warren and Roy and Barry S to speak and listen and learn how to become educated and strong in your state. Set high standards but never tread on other peoples turf. Remember who you are and what you are and determine to become the very best at what you do. This has always been my focus. Best to you all. Bill


Yeah Bill your pride shows, "My states got licensing.  Your state should try to be like mine."  Great advice, it seems you only have something to say when things fall apart, real constructive.  Let's get real here:

"This meeting is going to blow because it's a bait and switch"

Tell you what I'll be in Atlanta across the street at another hotel where we will have the true round table discussion.  The rest of you rube's can be hustled into the lions den on your own.  So Yes I will be in Atlanta for some change, No I won't be there for what is transpiring here.

Now Harry I will see you there since you have so much you need to say about the future of our profession, otherwise lets show some respect for those that will put much time and effort to make it that weekend. You too Bill put up or shut up.

----------


## Bill West

Hairy and Hairary or Harry and Harry. Gentlemen, I have never met either of you but I do enjoy your comments. I too have suffered the wrath of Harry J and other moderaters who sometimes tread on free speech and have kept me from saying what I really think, while trying to keep it clean. I would be honored to count for the duel but I hope cooler heads will prevail and this will pass. I would miss either of you. So smile and shake hands this thread is not worth it. Another old fa*t of an Optician. Bill West, 69 tomorrow.

----------


## gmc

> The effort is worthwhile but the effort expended on those that are not going to attend is far too much. No one is bringing anything of any substance up, if this is going to be the same view reiterated while many of the current national organizations leaders will be attending, then why not just attend the OAA's leadership conference, if your looking to get away from the status quo the go to the Un Expo. I don't know why I would drive 15+ hours to get to a summit that I know nothing about, there has been no communication.


Harry, I don't know you and don't mean to pick a fight with you, but really, no one is bringing anything of any substance up?

Dr. McDonald has outlined an excellent starting point for discussion here.

http://www.ecpmag.com/1webmagazine/2...n-optician.asp

I'm sure that what comes out of this and future meetings won't look exactly like this.  Nor will it look like what it would if you or I were a benevolent dictator.

----------


## Bill West

> Yeah Bill your pride shows, "My states got licensing. Your state should try to be like mine." Great advice, it seems you only have something to say when things fall apart, real constructive. Let's get real here:
> 
> *"This meeting is going to blow because it's a bait and switch"
> *
> Tell you what I'll be in Atlanta across the street at another hotel where we will have the true round table discussion. The rest of you rube's can be hustled into the lions den on your own. So Yes I will be in Atlanta for some change, No I won't be there for what is transpiring here.
> 
> Now Harry I will see you there since you have so much you need to say about the future of our profession, otherwise lets show some respect for those that will put much time and effort to make it that weekend. You too Bill put up or shut up.


Harry, I don't know how you missed it but, I HAVE NEVER APPROVED OF THIS HOOT'N'NANNY MEETING. Now don't you go crunching on my right to free speech either. I only shut up when I choose, I'll let you know.

----------


## BMH

This thread is so far off track.

 :cry: It's depressing!!!! :cry:

----------


## Jana Lewis

Geez... Now I wonder if I should spend the money going to Atlanta or not. 

So much infighting and attitude.... I would prefer an Ice Pick to the brain than to actually deal with this drama. *sigh*

----------


## Johns

> Geez... Now I wonder if I should spend the money going to Atlanta or not. 
> 
> So much infighting and attitude.... I would prefer an Ice Pick to the brain than to actually deal with this drama. *sigh*


Jana,

Keep in mind that this is the internet.  Not to say that the passion is not real, but I would definitely go to Atlanta and join us.  Remember, a very high percentage (99%+?) will not be there, nor at any other meeting that may have an impact on the future of opticianry.

I plan on going and meeting to discuss this and many other topics.  Whether or not it will be the same meeting that is being discussed here remains to be seen.  Join us either way...

----------


## Wes

Hey I'm still going and it's not just for the camaraderie, beer, and cigars (like at the unexpo that I missed most of) this time...
I'm not going for the CEs either, as I have far more than I need. 
I'm going to meet other like minded opticians and to see how this  meeting pans out.  I hope for the best. 
Wes

----------


## kcount

I'm still in.

----------


## Now I See

I'll be there in spirit! ;) I'll be there, in person, at the next one! :)

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

Has anyone considered that someone other than Harry banned him?

I think it would be hard for the banned guy to make posts that were not condescending. I thought he was the proof of the adage "Keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, open your mouth to remove all doubt", so I put him in my Ignore list after this comment to me:

Others are not as fortunate and this field has degraded to what it is  now and will further degrade if you and your ilk continue to promote  "you can be successful without an education."


Me and my *ILK?*

----------


## Johns

> Others are not as fortunate and this field has degraded to what it is  now and will further degrade if you and your ilk continue to promote  "you can be successful without an education."
> Me and my *ILK?*


Not a positive post, nor one that fosters much goodwill, but I've seen, much worse.


Heck, I've posted much worse...

----------


## FVCCHRIS

Time to take a step back, take a deep breath, remind ourselves who started this thread and why?? I think important progress has definitely been made. Lets not allow ourselves to say or do things we will regret. Everyone's opinions should be heard provided they are within the rules regarding posting. I suggest we go to sleep and start with fresh heads in the morning. Chris.

----------


## HarryChiling

> Time to take a step back, take a deep breath, remind ourselves who started this thread and why?? I think important progress has definitely been made. Lets not allow ourselves to say or do things we will regret. Everyone's opinions should be heard provided they are within the rules regarding posting. I suggest we go to sleep and start with fresh heads in the morning. Chris.


Here is an elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss.  I will personally only be able to be there on Saturday, during which time Warren will be in other meetings between the hours of:

Friday Prior Engagements:
9:00 to 4:00

Saturday Prior Engagements:
11:00 to 11:50
2:00 to 2:50
3:00 to 4:40

I have asked others if they have an idea of what the agenda is and no one seems to know, I spoke with Fezz and he's asked and it's apparently not available to him, well I don't know if I can dedicate almost 30 hours driving and about 10 to 12 hours at the event and have the agenda be kept a secret.  Here's what I do know I will only see Warren for 4 to 5 hours tops because of prior engagements, I will be stuck in a room with past leaders of associations that the majority here seem to think have been ineffective, and a good friend of mine that was going to attend is not welcome.  That about wraps up my situation.  Oh and the people that seem to have such strong opinions about the direction of this endeavor seem to be too busy to attend.

It's all or nothing, why should I spend less time with family and friends to attend a meeting that no one including the person that put this thing together has real time for?  The people that are supposed to be instrumental in this gathering are hedging their bets with other engagements.  Hey look, I know my time isn't worth as much as some of the other posters here, but I don't like wasting it either.  The venue was a poor choice and their is no agenda for this meeting.  

I think that it should be a small meeting comprised of those that truly give a rats tail.  That can't be done if half of the attendees are scrambling and putting in significant effort to attend while the other half were going to be there anyway and will just pop in to see what this is all about.  Same subject can be discussed at the next Un Expo and the attendees had a say in what, where, when, and how the whole thing is going to pan out.  That's what bothers me the most about this event, everyone seems to think they will be there to make a difference, but I have no idea what's really going on, who's really going to be there, and what's really going to be discussed.  

This meeting is being billed as different than all the others but so far that's only been talk.  Where's the openness, I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eye's so get an agenda up and a time line and a guess list (no freaking surprises) I'm not interested in someone popping in because they happen to be in the neighborhood.  This should be an invitation only event and those there should be honored to be there.  So far this thing looks like it's going to be a three ring circus.

----------


## wmcdonald

Harry,
The meeting has no agenda. It never has had an agenda. Roy and I will do brief presentations on some historical things and the recent article in ECP, but beyond that, it will come from the group. Sorry you had something else in mind. I am willing to come wherever if you wish to set something up, but remember, that is more difficult than sitting back and making comments on Optiboard! If you remember, I offered to hold it at my university campus, and people could not get there, and felt something more central would be appropriate. When it moved to Atlanta, with the busy airport and easier to reach location, then those who wanted it moved had other plans and could not come. Working with Opticians is like herding cats........and that is a tough chore. It is difficult to please all, and I no longer attempt to do so. 

Regarding my lecture schedule, I have the weekend, beyond a few lectures Saturday. My time on the panel for apprentices on Friday will be less than an hour. You seem to see danger behind very curve, and I am sorry for that, but at this point, just don't come. We will hold others, and you and Fezz may wish to attend. I want you to be comfortable with whatever you and anybody else want, and I obviously do not hold the answer for you. But this was always an open meeting. I did not realize you or Johns or anyone else needed to approve the guest list........my mistake. If you want to start some clandestine group, then do it, and good luck in your work. I am interested in gaining some ground for the profession that will get the attention of everyone in the industry. 

Best of Luck.

----------


## gmc

> This meeting is being billed as different than all the others but so far that's only been talk. Where's the openness, I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eye's so get an agenda up and a time line and a guess list (no freaking surprises) I'm not interested in someone popping in because they happen to be in the neighborhood. This should be an invitation only event and those there should be honored to be there. So far this thing looks like it's going to be a three ring circus.


Wow. An invitation only event (apparently with openness). I'm quite sure as an everyday working optician I wouldn't make the list of the elites that may get to decide the future of our profession.

Sounds eerily similar to the status quo.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Wow. An invitation only event (apparently with openness). I'm quite sure as an everyday working optician I wouldn't make the list of the elites that may get to decide the future of our profession.
> 
> Sounds eerily similar to the status quo.


If you wish to come, it is as open to you as it is everyone else. We would welcome your attendance, and encourage you to join us.

----------


## gmc

Dr. McDonald, I am coming. That was a sarcastic reply to Harry's vision vs. the open meeting you have planned. I am in full support of what you are doing and agree that it should be open to all.

----------


## Johns

> But this was always an open meeting. I did not realize you or Johns or anyone else needed to approve the guest list........my mistake.


...And mine as well.  Where have I advocated approval of anyone, let alone a "guest" list?  I have questioned the type of results we may have, based on those who "may" attend, but I have never suggested the exclusion of anyone.  

From the word go, I have been behind this, and was under the impression that this was an open meeting.  This is the first mention that I've seen of a "list" of any kind, except for the (short)list I started from those on Optiboard that had agreed to come.

The only reason I even asked inquired as to who would be attending is because I know that it is very east to commit to events while on Optiboard, but when it comes time to show.  The turnout is always minimal.  The first UnExpo had more than 20 confirmed, but of course we had 14 show.  When someone posts, "Who's wants to meet at VEW?", you'll often have more than 30 respondents, and you'll be lucky to have 4 show.

As far as "clandestine" groups, there will always be side meetings, and smaller meetings to discuss what has (or hasn't) transpired.  To those that were backing out, I suggested they come anyway to catch one of those, to still be a part of what was going on.  I see now that that won't be necessary...

----------


## wmcdonald

Johns,
It was not meant that way, and you were used as someone who was in support. I realize, and appreciate your support. I was using you as an example. Harry mentioned the guest list. I hope I can win Fezz and Harry's full support back at some point, but they appear to have such disdain for the national organizations they just don't trust having anyone from those groups even attend. We will just have to respectfully disagree on that one. The difference in this case is that when these discussions were held in the past, it was at one of the meetings of OAA. This one is not in their control. I obviously have done a poor job in communicating the purpose of the meeting. I want everyone to understand that it is an open event, which is not what takes place elsewhere. 

As to attendance.....I do not know how to gauge it, other than the folks who have committed here. A couple of weeks out, I will poll to get a count. Stay tuned.

Again, I appreciate you more than you know. 

Warren

----------


## HarryChiling

Those that represent some of the best from my state have already been excluded for having a difference of opinion with a state leader that posted to this thread after making it clear he was not attending.  There have been multiple poster to this thread that don't plan on attending but want to put there 2 cents in.  That's fine but I would think out of respect for those attending they would post their opinions then listen.  Why should I attend if if being there in person holds no weight.  I am interested in meeting those that are vested in this, not those that happen to be there.  So although the elitist comment seems to hold true. In reality me and Fezz were planning to spend more time driving than we would be in attendance.  I want to hear from those who come from Ohio, chicago, etc for the summit not just because they just happen to be there.  John I'll see you in the Hyatt.  Warren I don't know what the current leaders have to offer, these same people have been in positions among the organizations for years with plenty of opportunities to implemenr change.  They say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over yet expecting different results.  Thes leaders have ignored you for more years than I have been an optician, so who's insane expecting a different result this go round?  I've also been hearing all kinds of agendas and different speakers for this thing yet there is no agenda posted.  If I'm coming all this way to hear a bunch of blowhard lecture that's not fair since this was billed as a place t out a plan and discuss.  So far I'm hearing there will be no time for discussions except outside of the actual event in which case why meet in GA.  There is another friendlier venue.

----------


## HarryChiling

Got a lot of things cleared up.  This thread is doing more harm then good.  I'll be there and just as anxious to hear the people.

----------


## Johns

> This thread is doing more harm then good. I'll be there and just as anxious to hear the people.


I couldn't agree more!:cheers:


I say, gather your best thoughts and ideas, and save them for Atlanta.  I say let this thread die.  Start another later on to coordinate the "where's & when's"  We alread know all the "Why's", and all the "Who's" that have an interest can show, or forever hold their peace.

----------


## kcount

+1

----------


## Barry Santini

> . They say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over yet expecting different results. Thes leaders have ignored you for more years than I have been an optician, so who's insane expecting a different result this go round.


My two cents:

Begin with asking if anyone in attendance thinks that an optician SHOULD NOT modify an Rx...they should be excused from this movement for change.

In my humble experience, this single point of *arguement* is the linchpin differentiator that separates out those who cannot grasp the basics of the changes we want to accomplish.

Sorry I can't be there...this time

B

----------


## Uilleann

Hmmmmm.  I believe then, that there will be quite a number of us here who will just have to hold our peace.

I hope that those who decide make the trek are able to come away with something very solid and cohesive to move forward with.

Best.

----------


## kcount

> My two cents:
> 
> Begin with asking if anyone in attendance thinks that an optician SHOULD NOT modify an Rx...they should be excused from this movement for change.
> 
> In my humble experience, this single point of *arguement* is the linchpin differentiator that separates out those who cannot grasp the basics of the changes we want to accomplish.
> 
> Sorry I can't be there...this time
> 
> B


Not only do I believe we should, I do and regularly.

----------


## CNG

Dr. Mcdonald, I'll bet our "leaders" will not attend because they are afraid of facing opticians that dislike them because they have failed as leaders. They may say they will be there but they know they should not be there.  Maybe another organization should be approached to fill in the shoes of our failed national organizations and the cash cow of their certication agency. The power of change is within reach.  We have the numbers and ill bet every optician wants to better themselves and will endorse this credential that you propose but simply cannot be from our current ABO and their parent organizations. Maybe certification agencies such as JCAHPO may be interested in pursuing your ideals and are well established. Our time passed because of our failed leadership so we must find a new path and total independence cannot be reached as in the past. If we are going to be the PA of ophthalmology or optometry as you once proposed, you have to reach to them and make the opticianry schools be affiliated with ophthalmology/optometry programs. Our leaders failed in the non licensed states so time to move on and require certification from another credentialing organization that has real value and is well viewed. Maybe you can make the case to them because our current leaders simply could not make the case for us to continue following them.

CNG

CNG

----------


## Uilleann

> Dr. Mcdonald, I'll bet our "leaders" will not attend because they are afraid of facing opticians that dislike them because they have failed as leaders. They may say they will be there but they know they should not be there.  Maybe another organization should be approached to fill in the shoes of our failed national organizations and the cash cow of their certification agency. The power of change is within reach.  We have the numbers and ill bet every optician wants to better themselves and will endorse this credential that you propose but simply cannot be from our current ABO and their parent organizations. Maybe certification agencies such as JCAHPO may be interested in pursuing your ideals and are well established. Our time passed because of our failed leadership so we must find a new path and total independence cannot be reached as in the past. If we are going to be the PA of ophthalmology or optometry as you once proposed, you have to reach to them and make the opticianry schools be affiliated with ophthalmology/optometry programs. Our leaders failed in the non licensed states so time to move on and require certification from another credentialing organization that has real value and is well viewed. Maybe you can make the case to them because our current leaders simply could not make the case for us to continue following them.
> 
> CNG
> 
> CNG


Perfectly put.  How about it Warren, would an organization like JCAHPO be a worthy option in your view?  Because it's clear NONE of the good ol boys related to opticianry now have the stones to make any difference - unless it's increasing their own bottom line.

----------


## kcount

Why would Opticians want to tie themselves to JCAHPO?  This is an organization that survives because the Academy of Ophthalmology allows it to.  No thanks, would rather be on my own.  The last thing we need is an Optician certification to be a stepping stone for a technicians certification.

----------


## Uilleann

So then we go it alone it seems - if I'm reading you right here Kevin?  Isn't that basically where we are now?  I'm just not getting any sense of where anyone wants to go now.  There just seem to be so many balls up in the air that if they all come down at the same time during the meeting, who's going to know what to do with them all?  And more importantly...why hasn't it been done before?  It's clear this is not a new problem, or desire to change.  It feels from way out here, that this cart lacks wheels to get moving - let alone any form of viable horse to pull it, ya know?

Bri~

----------


## wmcdonald

Bri,
Thanks. We will do some brainstorming, and come up with some common ground. Once we select that common area of interest, we will move foward and finalize a plan for the future. 

CNG......a good suggestion, but I feel we will need to review that from all sides. Mr. Count clealry would not be in favor, and in general, probably most will want to remain seperate. What say others?

Lets see what happens folks. I do feel we are moving positively once agan. Thanks!

----------


## canaanlilli

> Bri,
> Thanks. We will do some brainstorming, and come up with some common ground. Once we select that common area of interest, we will move foward and finalize a plan for the future. 
> 
> CNG......a good suggestion, but I feel we will need to review that from all sides. Mr. Count clealry would not be in favor, and in general, probably most will want to remain seperate. What say others?
> 
> Lets see what happens folks. I do feel we are moving positively once agan. Thanks!


I agree with not joining JCAHPO (I wonder if it's the court jester of opthamology of times, let's see who get's that reference).

Second, I hope you all take into consideration that some of us are not attending because we logistically cannot, not because we have no desire to be part of this conversation. 

I hope someone will be willing to present our ideas at the conference as well, even if that is someone who does not agree with the ideas we put forth.

----------


## Wes

_Here's my question to those of you who have indicated you are coming.  Not including those who were attending for other reasons, What's it costing you in dollars to come to this?  Between missed work, hotels, and gas, it's going to run me about $500.  I don't need the CEs and wont be attending any classes, so those of you who arent taking the classes, find me, and we can go bs somewhere.  They say a thing is worth whatever someone will pay for it.  $500.  Thats what it's worth to me, in dollars.  What's it worth to you?_





> I agree with not joining JCAHPO (I wonder if it's the court jester of opthamology of times, let's see who get's that reference).
> *agreed, dont get the reference, though*
> 
> 
> Second, I hope you all take into consideration that some of us are not attending because we logistically cannot, not because we have no desire to be part of this conversation. 
> *I understand you can't get off work.  Neither could I.  So I called around, asked favors, and got schedules rearranged.  Now I'm going.  It just depends on how important your future career is to you.  My full time job is with the military; it pays well, and has good benefits.  As one of the people making the commitment to come, I have probably the least to gain financially, as I will probably never benefit ($$$) from it.  I'm going anyway, because I like what we're doing, and I like the people doing it.* 
> 
> 
> I hope someone will be willing to present our ideas at the conference as well, even if that is someone who does not agree with the ideas we put forth.
> *I'm paying $500 to present my ideas.  What are you doing?*

----------


## Wes

Disclaimer: I don't live that far from Atlanta.  There's a lot of people coming from much farther away.  Johns, Ohio; Fezz and HarryC, Pennsylvania; KC, Illinois.  Then there's the people from the other side of the country...  Wait, who are they?  Hmmmm.  Maybe it wasn't worth it to them.

----------


## kcount

> _Here's my question to those of you who have indicated you are coming. Not including those who were attending for other reasons, What's it costing you in dollars to come to this? Between missed work, hotels, and gas, it's going to run me about $500. I don't need the CEs and wont be attending any classes, so those of you who arent taking the classes, find me, and we can go bs somewhere. They say a thing is worth whatever someone will pay for it. $500. Thats what it's worth to me, in dollars. What's it worth to you?_


I'm using points for my hotel and air so thats a pittance. But to shut down the office on a Saturday is big, especially this point of the game.  So in lost revenue $1-$2000.

----------


## kcount

> Disclaimer: I don't live that far from Atlanta. There's a lot of people coming from much farther away. Johns, Ohio; Fezz and HarryC, Pennsylvania; KC, Illinois. Then there's the people from the other side of the country... Wait, who are they? Hmmmm. Maybe it wasn't worth it to them.


Quite the interesting observation.

----------


## Johns

> Second, I hope you all take into consideration that some of us are not attending because we logistically cannot, not because we have no desire to be part of this conversation.


I am assuming that is the main reason for many of those that are not attending.  I don't want to get into what it is costing me, nor what I am giving up in the middle of a busy summer.  Many others have put their time and effort into this field when I was not willing (nor able) to give of the resources I now have.  I don't think it's a good idea to say that someone is more committed than someone else, based on whether they attend the meeting.  

There are many, many, struggling opticals and opticians out there, that are celebrating every time they make their mortgage payment and/or their lab bill.  To expect them to attend an event like this would be beyond all reason.  Of course, there are opticians that will be attending that are in even more dire straits than we might realize, but will still manage to make it.  For them, it's a priority.  If it's not a priority for some now, that's fine, there's always the next time.

----------


## Uilleann

> Then there's the people from the other side of the country...  Wait, who are they?  Hmmmm.  Maybe it wasn't worth it to them.


That's not entirely fair nor accurate now is it Wes?  Come on Man, really.

----------


## Wes

Uilleann, stop. Dont get me wrong, I'm not faulting you. It's just an observation. You're much farther away. It will cost you much more to attend, while the perceived reward is in general, far less as the east tends to license and the west doesn't. I really can't blame you for not attending, because if in your situation, I wouldn't either. As I said, I stand to gain little to nothing fom this, But I attend anyway for the hope for the future, and the camaraderie. 

Like I said, I wanted to see what it was worth to some. If you can't define the worth of a thing, it is worthless. What"s this worth to you?

Hey, there's one "S" in Wes.  Thanksss, I was ssstarting to feel like a sssnake...

----------


## gmc

> _Here's my question to those of you who have indicated you are coming. Not including those who were attending for other reasons, What's it costing you in dollars to come to this? Between missed work, hotels, and gas, it's going to run me about $500. I don't need the CEs and wont be attending any classes, so those of you who arent taking the classes, find me, and we can go bs somewhere. They say a thing is worth whatever someone will pay for it. $500. Thats what it's worth to me, in dollars. What's it worth to you?_


I don't need the CEs either and won't be registering for the conference. Let's see: a couple of burned vacation days, gas, hotel, lost commission for not working, about $600 - $700.

----------


## GAgal

> It won't be so nice after you get a stare at some of the mugs on these folks!
> 
> Believe me, I have seen some of these clowns...........................it ain't nice!


Fezz!!! If you keep talking about me that way I won't buy you a beer when I get there

----------


## GAgal

Hey everyone! Addressing different issues here so please excuse me
I will be there...just for this particular event..no CE's...Its costing me about $400 but I live very close to ATL. I did however turn down 3 different engagements to attend. Wes, I'll be glad to get together with you and bs...I'll even buy you a beer. 

My opinion on the meeting, for what its worth, is that I feel that this is just a brainstorming session. I don't feel that a new organization will be founded or that legislation will be changed just from this one meeting. But, its important that we get ideas out there so that we can determine the way that we feel opticianry should progress. This is a multifaceted, complex movement and we need everyone we can improve the current state of the field.

As for video, I'll be glad to bring a video camera but I am a technology idiot and I have hard time downloading and stuff like that so....take my offer for what its worth and let me know. 

I can't wait to see everyone and I am hopeful that we can get a lot accomplished.

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

> Fezz!!! If you keep talking about me that way I won't buy you a beer when I get there



I think he was talking about me. My face would stop a calendar.

----------


## wmcdonald

Folks,
If we get the ball rolling, we will gladly go to other locations. Some from the left coast do want to be there, and Bri has indicated that he does, but cannot attend. Countless others as well have communicated that they simply cannot afford to come. If someone has something they want presented, post it, and we will make sure it is discussed. But be warned, it is my wish that we focus on only a few (no specific number for those who will ask that question) things. Trying to go off in 100 different directions will limit us. We will develop a list and prioritize to establish the strategic direction we will then assume.  

There is time, for anyone who wishes to come. We welcome you.

----------


## Judy Canty

Here's a thought...start at the Southeasteren and then move to the Opticians Convention in Cincy in the fall.

----------


## Now I See

> I think he was talking about me. My face would stop a calendar.


No....actually, if I remember correctly, you are the one who brought the calendars to us at the first Un-Expo. If that's the case, then your face has a good eye for finding a beautiful calendar, and one that my husband really enjoyed month after month!...LOL! :bbg:

----------


## Johns

> No....actually, if I remember correctly, you are the one who brought the calendars to us at the first Un-Expo. If that's the case, then your face has a good eye for finding a beautiful calendar, and one that my husband really enjoyed month after month!...LOL! :bbg:


No Heather, he's right....Fezz was refering to Dragon!:bbg::bbg::bbg::bbg::bbg:

----------


## Now I See

> I am assuming that is the main reason for many of those that are not attending. I don't want to get into what it is costing me, nor what I am giving up in the middle of a busy summer. Many others have put their time and effort into this field when I was not willing (nor able) to give of the resources I now have. I don't think it's a good idea to say that someone is more committed than someone else, based on whether they attend the meeting. 
> 
> There are many, many, struggling opticals and opticians out there, that are celebrating every time they make their mortgage payment and/or their lab bill. To expect them to attend an event like this would be beyond all reason. Of course, there are opticians that will be attending that are in even more dire straits than we might realize, but will still manage to make it. For them, it's a priority. If it's not a priority for some now, that's fine, there's always the next time.


Thanks for this...I'd give you a greenie, but the O'board boss says I gotta be like margarine and spread 'em around...so....here's a _GREENIE_ for you!

----------


## kcount

> Here's a thought...start at the Southeasteren and then move to the Opticians Convention in Cincy in the fall.


Not Cincy!  Opticians convention?:hammer:

( we need a smiley showing the little guy getting ill.)

----------


## Laurie

OK, we can figure out the next venue...it would make sense to pick a place where many can attend, not sure why exclusivity from opt meetings is an issue, think-tanks are great, however, having more like-minded people around, at an opticians meeting goes a long way towards momentum, hence Cin...

In regard to the 'who's going, who's going to be there anyway',

prices/
_Here's my question to those of you who have indicated you are coming. Not including those who were attending for other reasons, What's it costing you in dollars to come to this? Between missed work, hotels, and gas, it's going to run me about $500. I don't need the CEs and wont be attending any classes, so those of you who arent taking the classes, find me, and we can go bs somewhere. They say a thing is worth whatever someone will pay for it. $500. Thats what it's worth to me, in dollars. What's it worth to you?_
value quoted,

I will add:

One additional night there, when I would normally fly in/out sooner, not so much $$, 

time away from my family/friends, priceless.

: )

lets move from 'whatsitworthtoya', and really reflect, bring notes, and have a great brainstorm/meeting.

Looking forward to meeting all of yas,  ; )

----------


## Uilleann

Two weeks since the last activity here - has all the steam been lost?

----------


## kcount

No steam lost, just working more than posting. Well that and waiting for the 24th to role around so we can have some real conversations about this.

----------


## Uilleann

Ah, I see.  Well, I for one, will be very interested to hear what comes of all this. Logically, it seems completely insane to me to expect any sort of solid result from this get together. It strikes me that with only a few short hours to discuss ideas, no form of pre-planning or refinement, no real structure or agenda - that the whole mess is quite possibly doomed to fail before it ever gets moving. 

Just thinking out loud, and I hope that some are able to come home feeling even a little more enlightened. 

Best.

----------


## Laurie

Call me PolyAnna,

We'll get there...this is the first of many important discussions, Rome was not built in a day, blah blah... we are all planning to be there, and will hopefully recruit other opticians while at the conference to participate in the follow up discussions.

: )

Should we want to PM each other w/cell-phone numbers, I will start writing them down and having them available when we get closer to the meeting.

Of course pre-thought is important, please bring notes/thoughts/ppts on a thumb drive, and I am guessing we will have availability to an LCD/screen (or gather around a laptop and view).

I have a few items I am bringing, a neutralization project Roy and I communicated about, sample quizzes/exams, ect...

Please start collecting info/data/thoughts in duplicates, and we will get a jump start once we are all there.

Happy Summer, we just finished finals at HCC, so now I must sleep.

Until then,

: )

Laurie

----------


## wmcdonald

Folks,
Big week next week. I look forward to seeing many of you in Atlanta. Please respond here if you plan on being with us.

Best,
Warren

----------


## Wes

Warren, I am not taking any CEs, but I will be there.
Wes

----------


## kcount

I'll be there.

----------


## gmc

I'll be there too.

----------


## Diane

> Folks,
> Big week next week. I look forward to seeing many of you in Atlanta. Please respond here if you plan on being with us.
> 
> Best,
> Warren


 
Warren, I'll see you...but it looks like the room size could be a closet at this point...don't see too many folks responding.

Diane

----------


## braheem24

I'll be there.

----------


## wmcdonald

Thanks folks, I am sure it will be a lively discussion, and I pray we can leave this meeting with some solid understanding of the direction the groups wants to take. Fezz and HarryC are coming as well. Dr. Ferguson arrives early Friday morning (and if you know Roy, when he says early, he means early). I expect around 20 Diane. Wherever you have is much appreciated. I arrive at the airport at 3:30 and then to the hotel. See you there.

Warren

----------


## Uilleann

It does seem a pity that any form of forethought, discussion and dialogue was discouraged so strongly before this meeting.  I'll be interested to learn of what is accomplished in such a short time, with so many differing voices, opinions, and agendas.  How will information from and about this meeting be disseminated after the 24th?  Will this meeting be recorded/broadcast/podcast/streamed in any form?  Will it be heavily censored or 'selectively shared'?

Thanks.

P.S.  Last I was aware, Fezz is NOT going to attend.  


> ...I will not be attending either.


  (from his post #629)  Harry, have you heard otherwise?

----------


## wmcdonald

You did not read the entire thread. Look at HarryCs post 657. Bri, we have discussed this enough, and your constant negativity is not helpful. I am sorry it did not meet your expectations, but put something together out there, I will come and do it again. GAgal said it best: this is a brainstorming session, nothing more, nothing less. We will see what comes out of it.

----------


## Uilleann

> You did not read the entire thread. Look at HarryCs post 657. Bri, we have discussed this enough, and your constant negativity is not helpful. I am sorry it did not meet your expectations, but put something together out there, I will come and do it again. GAgal said it best: this is a brainstorming session, nothing more, nothing less. We will see what comes out of it.


Warren, with all due respect, I have read this thread.  And re-read it.  And read it again.

It started out appearing to be a very worthwhile movement.  However, as questions started to arise, and more and more people were seeking information - that needed information dried up.  Rapidly.  Then the egos made their triumphant entrance.  etc. etc.  All of us reading these long pages are aware of things now.  Yes, I realize Harry C is planning on going once more, however Fezz is not as of the last I had heard from him.  It was incorrectly stated that he would be above.

As for my "constant negativity" concerning the conduct of this meeting, or it's contents, my questions still stand - and remain unanswered.  I would very much like to know:  _How will information from and about this meeting be disseminated after  the 24th?  Will this meeting be recorded/broadcast/podcast/streamed in  any form?  Will it be heavily censored or 'selectively shared'?_

There is a lot more going on behind the curtain than many realize, and that seems to be the status quo, as another put it here, when it comes to optical organizations, meetings and movements historically.  Why has everyone gotten so tight lipped all of a sudden?  Why is there ZERO information shared?  Why was any attempt to gather ideas, to focus thoughts, or even strike up general conversation so harshly criticized via phone or email?

If all you're wanting to do is brainstorm, it would appear to be quite a waste of travel and accommodations for many.  Brainstorming shouldn't require massive travel plans across the country.  I, for one, was _hoping_ for something a bit more organized, more formal perhaps.  At least a basic agenda, schedule or work plan.  Something.  Anything.

I remain highly interested to learn how or even _IF_ this will be transmitted/recorded/re-broadcast or disseminated during or after the fact.  Clearly, it has NOT been discussed enough - unless this really is a one man show.  But that wasn't the impression I got way back at the beginning of this thread.  If you want to get, and more importantly keep, folks on board, I would think that transparency and lively discussion at all times would be rather self-evident.

----------


## wmcdonald

It will not be broadcast by me. Hell, this is a fist gathering to see if interest exists, and you want us to invest in Podcasting etc? I will not do that, but you are welcome to do so if you like. I have no problem with anyone recordinging it, although in several other posts I believe I answered this question. Again, so long as all present are willing it is fine with me. GAgal even indicated she would. It went no further at that time, but by all means I am willing. Brainstorming is where things develop, and can be very fruitful. It would be presumptous of me to set the direction for a group of people without getting their input. Dr. Ferguson and I will present information that will start the ball rolling, and see what happens from there. Brainstorming is and always has been what this meeting is about. Nothing more, nothing less. We will let you know by means of the board what transpires. 

As to the one man show........this is anything but. How can there be a sense of anything except tranparency when the group itself sets the direction. You seem to want an agenda for a brainstorming session. Please describe what you want and we'll try to accomodate you, even though you are not coming. If there is sufficient interest at this initial meeting, which by the way came from requests from this very thread, we will then set some initial direction and move forward. If we have no interest, then it will be difficult to go further.

I want to address one final issue. I volunteered to have this meeting at the university, and some indicated it was difficult to get to and a long way for those on the left coast. I then indicated I was to speak at the SEOC meeting and asked them for space, which they willingly provided at no cost. We moved it to an area with the largest airport in the world, so it would be easier to get to. Meeting space is limited, and I want the SEOC folks to know it is appreciated. I will be available all day Friday, Saturday morning, and Saturday evening to discuss our initiatives. I look forward to anyone who wishes to join us. I have also indicated that I would be willing to come to the left coast as well, if we have folks who want to talk about future directions as well (Please take it upon yourself to put that together, Bri). It can be at an existing meeting, VEW, or wherever. Let me know, and I will be there. I bet Roy would as well. Now, I have said all I need to. I waited until a week out to bring this issue up again, so it would not be a re-hash of things already said, but some just will not leave it alone. If you want to be a part, join us, you are very welcome. If you cannot come, we will report what happened here on Optiboard. I will ask Johns and Fezz and HarryC to help with that, and anyone alse there at the meeting. Come with an open mind and bring your ideas to share. Big things often start from small ideas.

----------


## Uilleann

There seems to be a bit of ongoing contradiction in this thread, as well as great confusion on my own part as to what I admittedly _*thought*_ this entire "movement" was about.  That was why I asked.  I will wait with bated breath to hear the outcome a few days from now.

----------


## Uilleann

In reply to the sweet little anonymous PM (which was at once audacious and humerous!): "Your baited breath is the reason everyone has gone underground to  discuss this.  People will listen to this negativeness only so long..."

I would remind you that "underground discussion" isn't happening.  Hence the rapidly increasing doubt among many of us.  Many of us who were initially 100% interested, and ready to do some hard and serious work towards what we felt was a worthwhile end goal.  So you'll completely understand our jaded take on more of the same - as this seems to have turned out.

What are _YOU_ bringing to the table Mr/Ms Anonymous hmmm?  ;)

_By the way, it's "bated", NOT "baited", and is a contraction of abated.  Read Shakespeare much?  It's in there for a start._  :D

----------


## GAgal

I'll be there....Cant wait to see everyone

----------


## Diopterman

> Fezz and HarryC are coming as well.





> You did not read the entire thread. Look at HarryCs post 657.


You may want to reread that post that you referenced again!

I just spoke with Fezz. He is _NOT_ going to Atlanta!

----------


## wmcdonald

We will miss him being there. During my last conversation he indicated he was, but Harry told me yesterday he was not coming. You appear just thrilled to also to let me know with your emphatic NOT!!

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *You did not read the entire thread. Look at HarryCs post 657. Bri, we have discussed this enough, and your constant negativity is not helpful. I am sorry it did not meet your expectations, but put something together out there, I will come and do it again. GAgal said it best: this is a brainstorming session, nothing more, nothing less. We will see what comes out of it.*


 
wmcdonald.........................You will be having a brain storming session with real poeple. not hiding behind anonymous names. That is also a positive plus, and they are investing their time and money to be present. Forget all the negative opinions from the ones that do not want to be there for one reason or another.
I admire all of you that will be there as it shows that there are still some people that actually make a physical effort to try to better things.

----------


## wmcdonald

Thanks Chris. I appreciate it. We continue to make the effort. I know one day it will be worth it!

Warren

----------


## hcjilson

Well said Chris, my sentiments as well.

----------


## price

Hi Warren,

I have motel rev. sent my money to soco, I will be there for my input. I think it is a good start to try to get ground work started. We optician are not united and I think this would be a good starting place.

  Don Price abo/ncle 
  refracting optician

----------


## wmcdonald

Thanks to Don and Johns and all the rest. I realy look forward to this and hope we can find some strong, common goals to help.

Warren

----------


## Laurie

Still planning to be there...

Looking forward to seeing everyone,

: )

Laurie

----------


## Wes

Bump bump...

Heading down that way tomorrow. Pm me if you need contact details.

----------


## Wes

Can we get a reminder on the time for "OUR" meeting, as some of us will not be attending classes.

----------


## Wes

Heading to atl now from columbia, sc.  Let me know if any of you want to meet up tonight for a bs session and a few drinks.Staying at the la quinta across the street...

----------


## gmc

In Atlanta. What time are we getting together in the morning?

----------


## Spekhog

I am with you, kind sir.  Perhaps it would be easier to just play music, sell dope and run ho's.  Just a thought...maybe too much exposure to the various chemicals have clouded my view point.  Maybe it is from being from TN.  Take care.  :P

----------


## harry a saake

Ok, now the first day is over, wonder if someone who was there could fill us in on how many attended, and any ideas or thoughts that were perused and debated

----------


## Uilleann

Don't hold your breath Harry - if the past several posts here (as well as the general feeling off the boards before this meeting) are any indication.  I'm sure we'll hear some basic reporting here and there, but I believe many of us here will be surprised to hear much.

----------


## Laurie

Hi Guys,

Just arrived home a few hours ago,  GREAT meeting, lots of great ideas, 

While I was not there for the entire duration, lots of great conversations/ideas occured, next meeting is planned for Opticians conference in Cincinnati in Sept.,  Warren caught me up later, a strong follow-up team (charter officers, ect.) was formed, moving forward...

 Awesome to make face to face with OB'rs, hope all arrived home safely,

There were no recording secretaries/scribes, just brainstorming, more to follow, let the folks who were there get a chance to get home safely, back to life, and then start the dissemination process.

Congrats to Warren, Roy, Diane, great stuff, great weekend.

Harry, I have no doubt, as I have known you for years, that you have the best interests in OPT in  mind.

Uilleann, not sure what your expectations are, do not know you, what exactly are you asking for/saying?

: )

Laurie

----------


## Uilleann

> ...Uilleann, not sure what your expectations are, do not know you, what exactly are you asking for/saying?...


Hi Laurie,

I have never said I had an "expectation".  What I *DID* have...several long pages ago in this thread was hope.  Hope for something very different for dispensing opticianry in the United States.  Hope for a system that had nothing to do with the ABO, and nothing to do with the OAA.  A hope for truly viable means of improving and nationally homogenizing the profession both for ourselves, but also for the patients we serve.  That was the original sales pitch.

This "movement" has moved in a very different direction from what was originally discussed here.  What it is now, and what it might become is anybody's guess.  Out of curiosity, who are the "charter officers", and what are their duties?  Texas appears to have made some positive strides in the right direction, without the need for national meetings, and certainly without the need to include the ABO or the OAA, or their "leadership".

Best of luck with whatever this is folks.

----------


## varmint

any ideas on how or if any of this information will be shared?  It appears so far that information and ideas are being held closely by a select few and that the ABO-NCLE will remain the forces behind any future for our profession. Here in the west we are watching and considering how and if we may be involved.

----------


## wmcdonald

> any ideas on how or if any of this information will be shared? It appears so far that information and ideas are being held closely by a select few and that the ABO-NCLE will remain the forces behind any future for our profession. Here in the west we are watching and considering how and if we may be involved.


Everyone is invited, and you were all welcome to join us in Atlanta. The next time this group will meet will be the ABO-NCLE meeting in Cincinatti. You are encouraged to join us. As to dissemination of information, I will ask Harry, Wes, Bob, Don or others involved to provide any information they feel appropriate. On your comment regarding a select group: yes, the select group who put their money where their mouth is and came to Atlanta. The next meeting is in Ohio. You are welcome to be a part of the process as it develops. 

Once specific comment: this was an open forum. Many who talk loudly do little more than that, and will never participate because the meeting is not around the corner from them, and cost them nothing. A small group got together and found common ground to help move the professional side of Opticianry forward. People from Illinois, Florida, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and many other states came at their expense, and all left with complete buy-in to the goals established BY THE GROUP. If you wish to join us, you are welcome. We are just establishing our initial group of people, and it is an interesting mix, but one that all found much to agree about. Let me just leave you with this.........everyone there was excited about the direction we are taking. As it develops, we may be able to afford some webinars that can expand our reach a little bit. Until then, I will tell you what I told Bri. Put a meeting together, and Dr. Ferguson and I will come to do the same thing there we did in Atlanta. I have made that offer several times to him, but still all he does is try to make this work seem like some kind of clandestine gathering, which it was not, and will not become. Put your money where your mouth is.......I will be there. If you do not have the ability to do that, join us in Cincinatti.

----------


## wmcdonald

> Hi Laurie,
> 
> I have never said I had an "expectation". What I *DID* have...several long pages ago in this thread was hope. Hope for something very different for dispensing opticianry in the United States. Hope for a system that had nothing to do with the ABO, and nothing to do with the OAA. A hope for truly viable means of improving and nationally homogenizing the profession both for ourselves, but also for the patients we serve. That was the original sales pitch.
> 
> This "movement" has moved in a very different direction from what was originally discussed here. What it is now, and what it might become is anybody's guess. Out of curiosity, who are the "charter officers", and what are their duties? Texas appears to have made some positive strides in the right direction, without the need for national meetings, and certainly without the need to include the ABO or the OAA, or their "leadership".
> 
> As to the change in direction of this thread, it started out asking if we needed to stiffen requirements for the ABO and used the CPA/accountant as an example. The direction of the thread took many turns and is the genesis for this meeting. 
> 
> Best of luck with whatever this is folks.


I appreciate it. I will tell you, no matter how much you try to tear this down, which is what I think you are attempting to do, you will fail. We will make positive things happen, and are on the way.

----------


## varmint

I am perfectly willing to participate and very much want to be a part of this effort, however your meeting in Atlanta conflicted with other travel plans I already had, making it impossible for me to be able able to attend even though I would have loved to be there. I may be in a position to organize a meeting for the folks on the west coast (Arizona in particular), and I can be available to help implement whatever procedures the group deems appropriate when the time comes. I would first like to have some knowledge of the goals and direction this effort is taking, so I will attempt to make the meetings in Cincinnati if at all possible, but you can surely understand not everyone who wants to be a part of this will be able to attend all of the gatherings for different reasons, it's not always just about money. If you would let me know what your criteria is to make your effort worth while to attend a west coast gathering I will check my resources. 
I apologize for my previous post sounding so negative, but the anticipation overcame my reason.

----------


## Laurie

Hi Varmint,

It would be great if you can get to Cinn...the cool thing about groups like this, is that opticians from all walks of life (none better than another, all important), can attend, the dynamics of the brainstorming change on a dime, evolving into a group thought...tough to do via print...face to face, tone, body language, clarification of thoughts is best done live...IMHO.

: )

Laurie

And, I would be remorse not to shout out to all of those there...awesome to meet you, I sure wish I could have stayed for the whole day.  Looking forward to seeing you in Sept.  : )

: )

Laurie

----------


## wmcdonald

> I am perfectly willing to participate and very much want to be a part of this effort, however your meeting in Atlanta conflicted with other travel plans I already had, making it impossible for me to be able able to attend even though I would have loved to be there. I may be in a position to organize a meeting for the folks on the west coast (Arizona in particular), and I can be available to help implement whatever procedures the group deems appropriate when the time comes. I would first like to have some knowledge of the goals and direction this effort is taking, so I will attempt to make the meetings in Cincinnati if at all possible, but you can surely understand not everyone who wants to be a part of this will be able to attend all of the gatherings for different reasons, it's not always just about money. If you would let me know what your criteria is to make your effort worth while to attend a west coast gathering I will check my resources. 
> I apologize for my previous post sounding so negative, but the anticipation overcame my reason.


Due to the constant negative comments from a few here we are convinced are trying to dissuade folks from participating, the group generally decided it was not an appropriate place to publish the proceedings. We will be discussing how to get this message out soon. If you wish to call, please do so. My cell is 910-818-1146, and I would be pleased to talk with you, on the grounds that our conversation is not privy to public disclosure as of yet.

----------


## Uilleann

All right Warren - you want to play that way?   You want to call me out?   Let's dance.




> Everyone is invited, and you were all welcome to join us in Atlanta.


Of course everyone was _"invited"_.   Rather convenient however, that the main, shall we call them: 'people of interest' were already going to be in Atlanta - in fact, going so far as to be paid for their attendance I would expect, correct?   Money where your mouth is indeed.




> The next time this group will meet will be the ABO-NCLE meeting in Cincinatti. You are encouraged to join us.


Where?   At the OAA meeting?   Why there?   Why them?   It *appears* to be a very cozy relationship there - and wasn't that precisely what so many of us were interested in avoiding this time around?   Several pages back that was certainly the case.




> As to dissemination of information, I will ask Harry, Wes, Bob, Don or others involved to provide any information they feel appropriate.


Why is that exactly?  You're being paid for your ongoing series in ECP Warren correct?  Not that any real information has been granted so far in those articles, apart from the need for "change" and the mention of this "meeting" in Atlanta.  Now I can understand that you have a very high placed position to protect there at Methodist University as a dept. chair.  I get that.  I also get that there is much going on behind the curtains relating to interpersonal relationships with others in the industry, and even organizations such as ABO and OAA.  I understand that one is a position such as yours needs to be careful as to what they say, and to whom.

You keep mentioning this as being an "OPEN" group.  Experience is showing that this is anything but.




> On your comment regarding a select group: yes, the select group who put their money where their mouth is and came to Atlanta. The next meeting is in Ohio. You are welcome to be a part of the process as it develops.


So here it is.  The truth.  This _IS_ after all has been said and done, a completely exclusive "pay to play" organization.  Except that Warren my good man, we already have plenty of those groups in opticianry. 




> Once specific comment: this was an open forum. Many who talk loudly do little more than that, and will never participate because the meeting is not around the corner from them, and cost them nothing.


And Warren, you're so very very wrong.  You see, for all the excitement you managed to drum up here, all the bravado and enthusiasm - which was GREAT by the way - you have gone an alienated many at the very core  you were hoping to get on board at the outset.

Money is _always_ an issue.  For anyone to insinuate otherwise here is insulting, appears rather arrogant and shows you really have no grasp of what many in this field struggle with pertaining to their disposable income, ability to travel due to any of a myriad of possible reasons, scheduling conflicts etc.

For my own part, I was certainly ready and willing to work around as many of my own difficulties and try to make this meeting at almost any cost - within reason.  But reason took a sharp left turn several pages back, and my own personal feeling was that the ends did not justify the means any longer.  That sentiment was/is shared by a growing number here - even if they haven't been as active in trying to cut through the smoke growing on this thread over the past few weeks.




> A small group got together and found common ground to help move the professional side of Opticianry forward. People from Illinois, Florida, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and many other states came at their expense, and all left with complete buy-in to the goals established BY THE GROUP.


I find this statement to be interesting - and enlightening.  You certainly have many cheerleaders going for you - even from far beyond our nation's borders.  Which seems extremely strange to me considering they don't have (and never will) a dog in this fight.  As it was initially presented, you had a surprisingly large number of us here ready not only to do what we could locally, but also to do what we could nationally to help move the original concept forward.  Yes, you certainly did have people from several states come - (all eastern in your own list, but I'll assume it was far from complete?) - however you also had a number of opticians change their minds recently, and choose not to come.  And of those, more than one were from the very states you list.  That seems to be rather against the spirit of the original proposal wouldn't you agree?




> If you wish to join us, you are welcome. We are just establishing our initial group of people, and it is an interesting mix, but one that all found much to agree about.


Again, you say everyone is welcome.  But you also said only people who were willing to pay for the privilege this time really matter.  Since it's clear it can't be both in reality, which is it?  




> Let me just leave you with this.........everyone there was excited about the direction we are taking. As it develops, we may be able to afford some webinars that can expand our reach a little bit.


I find it strains credulity to say that _no one_ in attendance was so much as able to employ a voice recorder, a web cam, a simple pen and paper even, so take a basic minutes of what was discussed.  You work for a University Warren correct?  More than that as head of a business department.  Meetings, and the ability to effectively disseminate the information discussed therein to a larger audience is a cornerstone of just about any businessman worth their salt correct?

Why, with all the dollar signs being bandied about, could no one afford even the most basic of recording or sharing?  Even a basic online program such as Skype could have provided an avenue for some to listen in at the very least.  That would have cost nothing.  Cost, in this case, should have been a non factor.




> Until then, I will tell you what I told Bri. Put a meeting together, and Dr. Ferguson and I will come to do the same thing there we did in Atlanta. I have made that offer several times to him, but still all he does is try to make this work seem like some kind of clandestine gathering, which it was not, and will not become. Put your money where your mouth is.......I will be there. If you do not have the ability to do that, join us in Cincinatti.


Once again - we must pay to play.  Sorry, I'm not buying.  Warren, let me be perfectly frank.  It appears that to some in our industry, you're quite the big cheese.  That you have some amazing grasp of opticianry in the United States that most of us will only dream about.  While that may indeed be true, there are a myriad of us who would love not only to hear what you have to say, but anyone else with a similar mindset.  We understand you've got your writing gigs, your speaking gigs, and that some organizations are very likely to pay a pretty penny for your words.  But if you truly are seeking a nation wide grass roots methodology here, I would suggest you reexamine your approach.  If someone else cares to fly you out to the west, pay for your hotel, wine and dine you, and perhaps send you home with a few extra Cleavland's in your back pocket, fair play to them.  But no sir, that won't be me.

Information is easy, and free in many cases to share.  Why the deaf and dumb act has been so strongly enforced hitherto now confuses more than just myself.




> I appreciate it. I will tell you, no matter how  much you try to tear this down, which is what I think you are attempting  to do, you will fail. We will make positive things happen, and are on  the way.


Again, this shows me that you're not in touch with what many of us are asking.  To date, you (or whoever the duly appointed spokesperson is for this new group) still have yet to answer several glaring questions regarding the direction and true intent of this meeting.

So, with all that said, once again I will wish you good luck.  At this point, I don't expect to hear anything constructive from any of this - but if it does ever surface someday, a good job to the participants in Atlanta.  I'm well aware that I'm a complete nobody to you Warren, and that is knowledge I can sleep comfortably with.  I won't expect any Christmas cards in future.  :p

----------


## Uilleann

> Due to the constant negative comments from a few here we are convinced are trying to dissuade folks from participating, the group generally decided it was not an appropriate place to publish the proceedings. We will be discussing how to get this message out soon. If you wish to call, please do so. My cell is 910-818-1146, and I would be pleased to talk with you, on the grounds that our conversation is not privy to public disclosure as of yet.


You know Warren, you could put all this to bed once and for all, with even the slightest bit of disclosure.  In the beginning, many more of us were "on board" with your initial concept.  You seem to believe that because YOU have chosen to be so secretive and that so much of this appears from the outside to be business as usual with the old optical organizations, that none of us want reform, improvements to opticianry or any form of advancement of our profession.  You're cutting off your nose to spite your face my friend.

What could you possibly have come up with that could in ANY way be anything other than POSITIVE??  Why not share??

----------


## HarryChiling

Warren stop posting in this thread please, let the people that were appointed to do good work do it.  Keep in mind that the one thing that was 100% agreed upon with no arguement was that not everyone was going to like what was discussed and not everyone was going to be included.

----------


## wmcdonald

Thanks Harry. You are correct, and I appreciate it. I do want it known, however, that I was not paid to attend SEOC. I volunteer my time there annually. I was also volunteering to meet with any group out west. It was a great meeting and I appreciate the efforts of all. I look forward to good stuff, and will refrain from continuing in this thread.

----------


## Craig

> Thanks Harry. You are correct, and I appreciate it. I do want it known, however, that I was not paid to attend SEOC. I volunteer my time there annually. I was also volunteering to meet with any group out west. It was a great meeting and I appreciate the efforts of all. I look forward to good stuff, and will refrain from continuing in this thread.


I would like to apolgize for the windbag- sorry, bagpiper- who we have no way to monitor nor put a muzzle on his computer. I applaud you for your efforts and people like you who change the world; others are just arrogant typists who provide nothing but negativity and then tell you they are just a realist.

I did send him a PM, but it was not without my name attached; he did not care nor understand what he does that hurts all of us trying to make the world a better place. His ego is all that matters and offering a positive solution is a foreign concept to someone who wakes up to see what is wrong with the world.

You can guarantee if there is a smiling face in the room, the bagppiper will not be happy and try to p--- on the party to make himself feel better.

Craig

----------


## Uilleann

> Thanks Harry. You are correct, and I appreciate it. I do want it known, however, that I was not paid to attend SEOC. I volunteer my time there annually. I was also volunteering to meet with any group out west. It was a great meeting and I appreciate the efforts of all. I look forward to good stuff, and will refrain from continuing in this thread.


 On that point Warren, I stand humbly corrected.  My sincere apologies as my information was flawed in that regard.  I do truly appreciate your openness on that point.  Thank you.




> I would like to apolgize for the windbag- sorry,  bagpiper- who we have no way to monitor nor put a muzzle on his  computer. I applaud you for your efforts and people like you who change  the world; others are just arrogant typists who provide nothing but  negativity and then tell you they are just a realist.
> 
> I did send him a PM, but it was not without my name attached; he did not  care nor understand what he does that hurts all of us trying to make  the world a better place. His ego is all that matters and offering a  positive solution is a foreign concept to someone who wakes up to see  what is wrong with the world.
> 
> You can guarantee if there is a smiling face in the room, the bagppiper  will not be happy and try to p--- on the party to make himself feel  better.
> 
> Craig


Wow Craig - glad you're feeling so much better now?   :Rolleyes:    You clearly have no idea what my level of participation was in this event several months back.  That's fine.  Carry on, and may you continue to change the world.  Good luck!

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## Jana Lewis

where is all this anger coming from? I don't get it? 

So? Some people got together to discuss some ideas about moving our profession forward! I would have gone but I had a mess to clean up here and couldn't get out of the office. 

I just don't understand why your so upset Brian?

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## Uilleann

Upset?  No.  Angry?  Nope.  Frustrated beyond words for an ever growing myriad of reasons?  Nail on the head.

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## Jana Lewis

> Upset? No. Angry? Nope. Frustrated beyond words for an ever growing myriad of reasons? Nail on the head.


I'm frustrated too Bri... but why are you frustrated with this group? I don't understand. I admire ANYONE that is trying to make it better for Opticianary. I find myself in a difficult postion, I've complained but haven't done much. :( I plan on changing this. I need to be part of something "bigger".

I appreciate your opinion, can ya help me out? I honestly don't get it?

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## canaanlilli

I'm not sure about Bri's frustration. Mine has to do with the fact that as much as I would love to see our industry improved, it felt like these guys were getting in bed with those that we are trying to change from as well as taking on an elitist attitude. I have expressed my opinions and been basically told that I was wrong, and that I apparently did not want change and growth in our industry, so I to have become frustrated.

I hope they are able to enact positive change, but at this point, until I see positive interaction with those of us who can not afford to make it to meetings in other states, or take the needed time off, but have asked to be informed of the points discussed at the meetings, then I do not see the change happening.

PS, I really do want to know what was discussed and how I can have input in this conversation, b/c honestly I feel kind of frozen out since I wasn't able to attend.

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## HarryChiling

Warren posted his phone number on this thread I have sent a few people my phone number and yet no one has called.  It's a fragile thing right now and their is work being done behinds the scenes to make sure this thing has a solid foundation.  If everything is laid out here like it was before the meeting the same thing will happen that happened in this thread people get upset and rather than build it's always shoring up the ship.  Will this thing be perfect when it's ready to be put out there "No", nothign is but this is the time for work and negativity is non productive.  Freakin' be patient, let this thing unfold.  

Just like everyone has a reason as to why they couldn't be there, believe that those there have a reason not to post information here.  If I have to believe that the reasons for not being there were valid I have to believe that reasons for not making this public are just as valid and deserve a little consideration.  Freakin' call me already find out what's happening if you feel as though you really need to know but this thread has really run it's course.

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## Wes

I second Harry.  The excessive negativity on this forum has demonstrated that this is no longer the proper medium of communication.  Several people have volunteered to communicate with you on a one on one basis.   if you must know, contact one of them or me.  Now lets close this up please?

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## canaanlilli

Geez, I understand that, and I anxiously and patiently await the dissemenation of information. But I for one am not comfortable calling people I don't know. Email and PM's are one thing. So, I will wait patiently until you are ready to let us know what is up! :D Please, realize that frustration is not the same as anger or hurt feelings. Good night to this thread...and this is said in the kindest sarcasm..(the only kind I know)...We await to here from you my fearless leaders!

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## Craig

> Geez, I understand that, and I anxiously and patiently await the dissemenation of information. But I for one am not comfortable calling people I don't know. Email and PM's are one thing. So, I will wait patiently until you are ready to let us know what is up! :D Please, realize that frustration is not the same as anger or hurt feelings. Good night to this thread...and this is said in the kindest sarcasm..(the only kind I know)...We await to here from you my fearless leaders!


HOw do you meet and greet new customers?


Craig

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## canaanlilli

First, I've already pm'd you. Second, They are coming to me, I have a face to go with the name, and I am providing them a service. I have not succeeded at those personal business models like Amway or Mary Kay because I am not good at going out and talking to total strangers. I'm more comfortable on stage, which for me my shop is, a stage I get to help people from.

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## mjacob

I fully agree with that. I got my AS degree frm FL and took my ABO/NCLE certification exams in MI. The optical that i'd worked, they were just taking anyone of the street w/ no optical background... n they're labeled as Opticians!!! I was way underpaid!!! I think they do need to make rules more stricter, in all states.. like in FL. In FL, u cannot do anything without a licensed optician present.

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## Fezz

How is the progress coming on this project?

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## HarryChiling

> How is the progress coming on this project?


Call me, bro.

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## price

Hi Harry,

Wish you had made the Ohio meeting it was great.

 Don Price ABO/NCLE
 BOARD MEMBER of Society for Advanced Opticianry
 Va. license
 Refracting Optician

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## HarryChiling

> Hi Harry,
> 
> Wish you had made the Ohio meeting it was great.
> 
> Don Price ABO/NCLE
> BOARD MEMBER of Society for Advanced Opticianry
> Va. license
> Refracting Optician


I had a conflicting meeting in PA.

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## Fezz

A sentence is more like it!

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