# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  VSP and Costco

## Sphinxsmith

One of my frame reps is visiting and just let me know that Costco and VSP have signed a deal to work together.
Has any one heard more on this?

Add to that with Safilo and Marchon selling direct to Costco ... Pennies on the Dollar ...

... Great ...

Sphinx

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## Happylady

No, I hope it isn't true.

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## Leonazium

I actually like this. You should be allowed to use your insurance anywhere without having to worry about being in-network. But this deal will really suck for the private practice. Well hopefully Costco will cross-train all their cashiers and cart pushers as opticians for all the business they will get.

Sidebar:
What is the rule between membership and insurance? If I remember correctly you(the store) cannot deny a guest or member their right to use insurance(that your store is in-network for) to where their insurance would be relevant. If I am correct, that is why Sam's Club or Costco cannot deny you the use of their pharmacy or optometrist.

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## braheem24

Costco is not doctor owned, allowing them to be in-network providers would be a good precedence for opticians.

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## cocoisland58

You no longer have to be doctor owned to be a VSP provider.  This long time rule was quietly dropped last year.  No reason opticians could not be providers as well one would think.

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## Johns

> You no longer have to be doctor owned to be a VSP provider.  This long time rule was quietly dropped last year.  No reason opticians could not be providers as well one would think.


Sorry, not true.  They denied my office (3 months ago) when the OD tried to sign up.  They sited the OD owner clause.

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## tigerlilly

> Well hopefully Costco will cross-train all their cashiers and cart pushers as opticians for all the business they will get.


Considering that Costco is the only national optical retailer that requires ABO and NCLE certification of its opticians, even in unlicensed states, I don't see this happening. I don't think membership and insurance ahve anything to do with one another, either. You do need a membership to buy contacts or glasses, and none of the Costcos near me take any insurance.

I keep hearing all these VSP + Costco= BFF rumors, and I just don't believe it. I thought it turned out there was one particular VSP plan in one particular location serving one particular employer, rather than some sort of a widespread rollout of Costco as a new VSP provider? Particularly since the doctors are independent and control which insurance they take (if they choose to take any at all), I don't see how an agreement would work all that well.

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## cocoisland58

> Sorry, not true. They denied my office (3 months ago) when the OD tried to sign up. They sited the OD owner clause.


No doubt only because you are too small to buy enough Marchon product (or boycott said product) to make them bend their rules.

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## Johns

> No doubt only because you are too small to buy enough Marchon product...


Yeah...that's probably it.

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## allanon

This is a confirmed rumor.  VSP is downplaying it as merely a test with several (as many as 8) clients.  They lost a large corporate client to Davis, and the reason given was that their members desired access to more retail locations with 'Sunday' hours.  Having worked commercial, I call BS on the Sunday thing, but that's what has come out so far.  They hope to show that members are not seeking retail or Sunday services.

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## Sphinx

So the latest Ive heard on this is that VSP is loosing contracts to Eyemed/Lux because their clients want more retail options. 
VSP is test-bedding it with Trader Joes and Costco right now. If the client decides to go to Costco then they will have their benefit available though diminished.
Also Ive been told that Marchon is not selling current product to Costco direct.

That's the latest scuttle-butt so take for what it's worth.

Sphinx

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## inslady

Here's the scoop... VSP got the Trader Joe's account by agreeing to allow Costco to file claims on behalf of the patient.  At Costco, the patient will receive a higher out-of-network benefit.  Costco is NOT in-network.

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## pezfaerie

All I can say is that there's a program through Marchon that allows them to act as in-network providers and they can tell the pt "yes we accept VSP" but their reimbursement is much less than that of an in network VSP provider. And the Costco 30miles away from here takes VSP so I don't think its much of a rumor anymore.

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## inslady

Had not heard as fact they were allowing Costco to be in network... thanks for the info.

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## tigerlilly

> Here's the scoop... VSP got the Trader Joe's account by agreeing to allow Costco to file claims on behalf of the patient.  At Costco, the patient will receive a higher out-of-network benefit.  Costco is NOT in-network.


There used to be an arrangement with VSP that allowed Costco to provide patients with a form that would enable them to get a higher reimbursement rate. This is not a new thing - who knows how long it went on? - but VSP got shirty and demanded an end to that a while back. If that's what's going on with Trader Joe's, then this rumor is not all it's cracked up to be.

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## a1vo

Oh! That's why now I can send in CMS1500 to VSP and get paid directly and I do not need to ask my "out-of-network" VSP patients to pickup their eyeglasses *AFTER* they receive the VSP check.

Haleluya

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## Eyeball

> Oh! That's why now I can send in CMS1500 to VSP and get paid directly and I do not need to ask my "out-of-network" VSP patients to pickup their eyeglasses *AFTER* they receive the VSP check.
> 
> Haleluya



But how would you know how much VSP reimburses to calculate how much the patient needs to pay beyond what is covered?  Each plan reimburses a little differently, don't they?  Besides, I thought all out-of-network payments go directly to the patients, not providers.

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## Johns

> But how would you know how much VSP reimburses to calculate how much the patient needs to pay beyond what is covered?  Each plan reimburses a little differently, don't they?  Besides, I thought all out-of-network payments go directly to the patients, not providers.





> _"patients_ to pickup their eyeglasses *AFTER* they receive the VSP check."


It looks like this is VSP's way of weaning the patients away from the traditional type (OD) providers. And why not?  If VSP can reimburse a lower rate to the pt. then they would to an OD, that's more money in their pocket.  If they can give even less to Costco, and less still to Frames Direct, why in the world would they promote their panel ODs?

I see this as phase 3 (of 5).  The traditional VSP providers were the vehicle to capture market share.  For the most part, that has been accomplished.  Now, the search (and they don't have to search far) for avenues that will net them more profit is on.  Non traditional providers (lowest overhead) are lined up ready to take over.

I'd hold the "Haleluya"...unless of course you are Costco, or Frames Direct.

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## Eyeball

> It looks like this is VSP's way of weaning the patients away from the traditional type (OD) providers. And why not? If VSP can reimburse a lower rate to the pt. then they would to an OD, that's more money in their pocket. If they can give even less to Costco, and less still to Frames Direct, why in the world would they promote their panel ODs?
> 
> I see this as phase 3 (of 5). The traditional VSP providers were the vehicle to capture market share. For the most part, that has been accomplished. Now, the search (and they don't have to search far) for avenues that will net them more profit is on. Non traditional providers (lowest overhead) are lined up ready to take over.
> 
> I'd hold the "Haleluya"...unless of course you are Costco, or Frames Direct.


It's true that VSP would benefit by paying less to out-of-network providers, but the patient wouldn't go to an out-of-network provider because they have to pay more out of pocket. So in your case, the patient would wait for the check to come, then bring the check to your shop, and then you calculate how much he has to pay based on how much was paid on the VSP check, right? The difference between your usual and customary fees and what was paid on the out-of-network check is the amount in question here. Isn't it usually higher than what the patient would normally pay if they were in-network? That is why it is hard to convince a VSP patient go out-of-network, unless your fees are really low.

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## Johns

> It's true that VSP would benefit by paying less to out-of-network providers, but the patient wouldn't go to an out-of-network provider because they have to pay more out of pocket. So in your case, the patient would wait for the check to come, then bring the check to your shop, and then you calculate how much he has to pay based on how much was paid on the VSP check, right? The difference between your usual and customary fees and what was paid on the out-of-network check is the amount in question here. Isn't it usually higher than what the patient would normally pay if they were in-network? That is why it is hard to convince a VSP patient go out-of-network, unless your fees are really low.



That is true, but unlike in the past, VSP is not making the barriers to out-of-network as high as they once were.

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## Bill West

> Sorry, not true. They denied my office (3 months ago) when the OD tried to sign up. They sited the OD owner clause.


Ouch! Hey friend, are you fixing to give up the ship and sign on with these optical pirates? Guess things are getting tough all around. I wish you the best however you choose.
Your friend, the original O.D.,[ Optical Devil ]

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## Johns

> Ouch! Hey friend, are you fixing to give up the ship and sign on with these optical pirates? Guess things are getting tough all around. I wish you the best however you choose.
> Your friend, the original O.D.,[ Optical Devil ]


No, not at all.  However, I just opened up 2 new offices, and I have the same OD working both of them.  Although he is booking nicely, he thought he had more room on his schedule, so he thought he'd add "another 3rd party plan".  Little did he know that this is not just "another 3rd party plan".  

It was actually humorous to watch him sputter when they told him that he couldn't be on the panel due to his association with me...an optician!  I told him the problem could be easily remedied by simply giving me $200k (I gave him the discounted rate:bbg:) and taking over ownership of the practice.  He wasn't amused.

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## Bill West

> No, not at all. However, I just opened up 2 new offices, and I have the same OD working both of them. Although he is booking nicely, he thought he had more room on his schedule, so he thought he'd add "another 3rd party plan". Little did he know that this is not just "another 3rd party plan". 
> 
> It was actually humorous to watch him sputter when they told him that he couldn't be on the panel due to his association with me...an optician! I told him the problem could be easily remedied by simply giving me $200k (I gave him the discounted rate:bbg:) and taking over ownership of the practice. He wasn't amused.


*WHEW!!!!* Shame on me for even thinking  you would do this. Hey, he can buy me out for less but I've always been CHEAP or is that CHEEP?

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## racethe1320

> It looks like this is VSP's way of weaning the patients away from the traditional type (OD) providers. And why not?  If VSP can reimburse a lower rate to the pt. then they would to an OD, that's more money in their pocket.  If they can give even less to Costco, and less still to Frames Direct, why in the world would they promote their panel ODs?


Not true at all.  The intent of the program isn't to hurt private practice.  Doing nothing and allowing EyeMed to take the deals at Trader Joe's and other pilot customers they are trying to win back would significantly hurt you, me, and other independents as we would way more often than not, NOT see that patient again.

What's happening here is nothing new.  It's out of network benefits just called something different.  Big deal if Costco can now log online to file claims.  The patient is still willing to pay more to NOT see the private practice doc.  Percentage wise, that is low single digits.  However, in order to compete at the provider level and even have a shot at these clients, it had to be done.  Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice.

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## LENNY

> Big deal if Costco can now log online to file claims.  The patient is still willing to pay more to NOT see the private practice doc.  Percentage wise, that is low single digits.  However, in order to compete at the provider level and even have a shot at these clients, it had to be done.  Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice.


Yes it is a BIG deal!
I lose 1-3 patients a day that dont want to go through the reimbursement process themselves! Why Costco has to be any different than regular office. Who cares who owns it! We are licensed to provide the service!!!!!!!!!!

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## LENNY

> Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice.


This is interesting!?!?!?
How?

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## Fezz

> Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice.


Are you on VSP's payroll?

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## Diopterman

> Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice.


 
With *HELP* like that, who needs enemies?

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## Johns

> Big deal if Costco can now log online to file claims.  The patient is still willing to pay more to NOT see the private practice doc.  Percentage wise, that is low single digits.  However, in order to compete at the provider level and even have a shot at these clients, it had to be done.


Hmm...It was a big deal before.  Now all of the sudden they can log on and file claims?  Sounds like a pretty big deal to me.





> Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice.


Please finish the above sentence.  "VSP is trying to HELP private practice...(HOW?)"
They are trying to "help" private practice like Essilor is trying to "help" private practice by competing against them.




> Are you on VSP's payroll?


I don't think that it's been lost on anyone that you appear to be commenting from a position of authority on the matter. (I have seen no "IMO", so I assume you know this info from sources we are not privy to.)

So, tell us more about how VSP is out to "help" private practice...

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## racethe1320

> This is interesting!?!?!?
> How?


How many Trader Joe workers do you see on a regular basis?

Because if Trader Joe's stays with Eye Med, you have less than a 50% chance of seeing that client.  EyeMed clearly directs their patients to their own retail shops not private practice.  If VSP gets them back, it's less than 5% that patients will go out of network.  So complain all you want, if VSP does nothing, you gain nothing.  They are doing what they need to do in order to stay competitive and put patients back in the hands of independent ECP's.

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## racethe1320

> Are you on VSP's payroll?


No.  I Have a very close friend and distant relative that is a state rep.  I do regularly volunteer for their mobile clinics though.

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## racethe1320

> Hmm...It was a big deal before.  Now all of the sudden they can log on and file claims?  Sounds like a pretty big deal to me.


Not really.  In the end, big business is still pushing VSP for a retail "option".   It's still ultimately up to the patient to decide where they go. At least if the patient is with VSP and not EyeMed we (independents) still have a shot at them.  If they stay with EyeMed, they will very likely visit Pearl or Lenscrafters.  Now what does it stay about the local Independent ECP practices if a patient goes out of network to Costco while under a VSP Plan?   One can't blame VSP for them going out of network.







> Please finish the above sentence.  "VSP is trying to HELP private practice...(HOW?)"
> They are trying to "help" private practice like Essilor is trying to "help" private practice by competing against them.


No, I've already explained the first half.  VSP in no way competes with private practice.  If you believe that, please tell me how.




> I don't think that it's been lost on anyone that you appear to be commenting from a position of authority on the matter. (I have seen no "IMO", so I assume you know this info from sources we are not privy to.)


Yes/no.  I have a much better understanding of VSP than most.  I'm also pretty staunch on my thoughts as I hate seeing so many criticize a company yet so willing to accept reimbursements from them.  It wouldn't bother me as much if those complaining had facts and not just message board rumor to go on.




> So, tell us more about how VSP is out to "help" private practice...


Already have, but I can provide you a lot more informational facts if you wish.  Just share with me your concerns.

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## racethe1320

__ 


> _Originally Posted by racethe1320_  
> _  Don't say it's VSP trying to score anything  other than a previous client back in order to HELP private practice._
> 
> This is interesting!?!?!?  How?


I have already covered this, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are on why VSP's actions to win back clients from EyeMed are seen as _NOT_ benefiting private practice and instead are hurting private ECP/docs?

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## pezfaerie

VSP in no way competes with private practice. If you believe that, please tell me how.



Hmmmm, If by private practice you mean Independant Optician owned, they compete by offering the Doctors higher pay out, oops I mean reimbursements, than to the Optician. I have documented proof so its not just some message board rumor. Even those Opticians who are able to accept reimbursement directly from "VSP" get much less than the doctors. However if you weren't speaking of the Independant Optician  forget what I said.

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## racethe1320

> However if you weren't speaking of the Independent Optician  forget what I said.


I was not referencing independent opticians.  My bad.  FWIW, I think VSP will eventually support Opticians at the same level.  Times are changing and they are changing their ways too.  Who knows, with the purchase of Marchon, which, IMO, is their attempt to diversify and compete with Luxottica, they may end up making the move. Same with Eyefinity/OfficeMate.  Those acquisitions only help move the ship in the direction so many here seem to want.

My question to all those here who are license opticians, if VSP did make that move, would you then all of a sudden be their supporter?  or Instead would you gladly see their patients, while still coming here to complain and gripe about managed care and big bad VSP ?

I would also question how adding opticians to the mix would help anyone?  Wouldn't it just water down the already competitive landscape?

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## pezfaerie

> My question to all those here who are license opticians, if VSP did make that move, would you then all of a sudden be their supporter? or Instead would you gladly see their patients, while still coming here to complain and gripe about managed care and big bad VSP ?
> 
> I would also question how adding opticians to the mix would help anyone? Wouldn't it just water down the already competitive landscape?


I think if they let us play on the same field and reimbursed us exactly the same for the exact same services then I would consider it. However, if they try to pay Opticians less then Dr.'s for the same materials then nope, I'd still whine. I think that's the big ouch from Opticians is that they don't reimburse us or the patients the same and also don't truly allow us to be members. Besides controlling every aspect of the buisness (aspex frame is kinda what I was thinking of here).

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## racethe1320

> I think if they let us play on the same field and reimbursed us exactly the same for the exact same services then I would consider it. However, if they try to pay Opticians less then Dr.'s for the same materials then nope, I'd still whine. I think that's the big ouch from Opticians is that they don't reimburse us or the patients the same and also don't truly allow us to be members. Besides controlling every aspect of the buisness (aspex frame is kinda what I was thinking of here).


I get where you're coming from.  Good points.  AGain, I hope VSP will find a way to change.  The only thing I don't know for sure is if they accept opticians, would that then open Pandora's box for opticians that are at retail?  Most docs, especially all their 27k or whatever the numbers is wouldn't be too happy.  So I would say they would have to balance that and a 50+ year history with being able to garner enough business by making that decision.    I believe it's a state by state thing to determine if they can limit Opticians.  Again, I don't know, haven't thought that part through or gathered facts.

Aspex wise though, I actually side with VSP.  From what I've read in the news, Aspex is lawsuit happy and I know that if I was going through a divorce, my wife would get the axe from my office right away.  Can't blame VSP for that situation in my eyes.  I wouldn't do business with someone who was going after me either.

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## a1vo

> But how would you know how much VSP reimburses to calculate how much the patient needs to pay beyond what is covered? Each plan reimburses a little differently, don't they? Besides, I thought all out-of-network payments go directly to the patients, not providers.


Well, VSP rep now tell me how much they pay (to out-of-network providers like us) over the phone.  This is different.  In past they won't even talk to us.

I just did my first CMS 1500 claim to VSP about 2~3 weeks ago.  Unfortunately, the check still went to the patient's home probably because VSP do not have my tax information on file yet.  Hope that the next check will come to my store.

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## cocoisland58

I would go out on a limb here and say that in a few years if not less anyone but anyone who cares to jump on the VSP wagon will be welcomed with open arms.  As of this year there are two chains (yes corporate chains and one is multi-state) that are VSP providers and are allowed to use their own private labs.  One of these is owned by ODs who still do not work the required hours in their offices (or any office for that matter) that the contract states is necessary and the other is owned by a medical conglomerate hospital system.  VSP has no allegiance to private practice believe me.

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## LENNY

> __ 
> 
> I have already covered this, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are on why VSP's actions to win back clients from EyeMed are seen as _NOT_ benefiting private practice and instead are hurting private ECP/docs?


This is very easy! My practice is not owned by OD so I do benefit from Eyemed having as much of the plans that VSP lost!
Also Why whould I benefit if the insurance company that I work for sends their customers to the discount place wher they can spend one third of my prices and get reimbursed easier than from me?

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## racethe1320

> I would go out on a limb here and say that in a few years if not less anyone but anyone who cares to jump on the VSP wagon will be welcomed with open arms.  As of this year there are two chains (yes corporate chains and one is multi-state) that are VSP providers and are allowed to use their own private labs.  One of these is owned by ODs who still do not work the required hours in their offices (or any office for that matter) that the contract states is necessary   VSP has no allegiance to private practice believe me.


So then you're familiar with the court case that was filed against VSP due to them having initially dropped this OD from their panel and how the courts in one state ruled against VSP and forced them to reinstate the practice in their home state ?  Doesn't sound like you are. It's an interesting court ruling.

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## racethe1320

> This is very easy! My practice is not owned by OD so I do benefit from Eyemed having as much of the plans that VSP lost!
> Also Why whould I benefit if the insurance company that I work for sends their customers to the discount place wher they can spend one third of my prices and get reimbursed easier than from me?


I don't understand what the heck you were trying to type.  Put down the Vodka.

However, if I'm even remotely understanding your post, you missed the end of my statement where I said private ECP/*Docs.*  Not Optician. My understanding is that VSP's Client asked specifically for Costco as the retail option or they would stay with EyeMed.  Given the nature of Costco, there's zero thread to a Private Practice OD like myself.  If a prospective patient chooses Costco over me, then either me and my staff didn't do our job or the patient is a better fit for them than me.  Not all butts belong in my chair.

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## kcount

> I don't understand what the heck you were trying to type.  Put down the Vodka.
> 
> However, if I'm even remotely understanding your post, you missed the end of my statement where I said private ECP/*Docs.*  Not Optician. My understanding is that VSP's Client asked specifically for Costco as the retail option or they would stay with EyeMed.  Given the nature of Costco, there's zero thread to a Private Practice OD like myself.  If a prospective patient chooses Costco over me, then either me and my staff didn't do our job or the patient is a better fit for them than me.  Not all butts belong in my chair.


As an independent Optician I can truly say, in the end, I really dont care about VSP. Thats not to say if they sign me up I wont take their money, but I believe they will slowly morph into an Eyemed clone and will most likely end up opening their own offices. (Although technically they already have by basically buying out 90% of the OD's. To understand this, consider what an OD's practice would be like with out VSP.) Realize I come to this conversation with a long time record of being a non-VSP supporter but I believe most would concur with my position. VSP / Eyemed the only difference is that Eyemed understands that its a retail game and want as many doors as possible on their roster. Until VSP gets their head out of the "We're pseudo-medical doctor's" they will continue to lose market share.  Look around, the most successful MD's and OD's on this forum are the ones that have delineated their office into medical/optical back and retail front. In my area the most successful MD's are the one's that left dispensing off the table and focus 100% of their time into exams and surgery.

Thats my 2 cents at least.

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## LENNY

> I don't understand what the heck you were trying to type.  Put down the Vodka.
> 
> However, if I'm even remotely understanding your post, you missed the end of my statement where I said private ECP/*Docs.*  Not Optician. My understanding is that VSP's Client asked specifically for Costco as the retail option or they would stay with EyeMed.  Given the nature of Costco, there's zero thread to a Private Practice OD like myself.  If a prospective patient chooses Costco over me, then either me and my staff didn't do our job or the patient is a better fit for them than me.  Not all butts belong in my chair.


Vodka or no Vodka!
But I do consider myself a private ECP! 
Since when it maters who OWNS the practice?

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## LENNY

> I don't understand what the heck you were trying to type.  Put down the Vodka.
> 
> However, if I'm even remotely understanding your post, you missed the end of my statement where I said private ECP/*Docs.*  Not Optician. My understanding is that VSP's Client asked specifically for Costco as the retail option or they would stay with EyeMed.  Given the nature of Costco, there's zero thread to a Private Practice OD like myself.  If a prospective patient chooses Costco over me, then either me and my staff didn't do our job or the patient is a better fit for them than me.  Not all butts belong in my chair.


I also hope that you have Opticians working for you and reading this board!

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## racethe1320

> As an independent Optician I can truly say, in the end, I really dont care about VSP. Thats not to say if they sign me up I wont take their money,



  At least youre honest.   You actually sound just like the very same description so many here have said about your beloved VSP.  They take your money and dont care.   Ironic.





> I believe they will slowly morph into an Eyemed clone and will most likely end up opening their own offices. (Although technically they already have by basically buying out 90% of the OD's. To understand this, consider what an OD's practice would be like with out VSP.)



  Considering they were formed by ODs for ODs and support ODs.You or anyone have yet to show me a business model that would support your belief that VSP will go retail.  You must have missed my previous post covering that.


  Also, please tell me what would my practice look like without VSP in the world?  Would I still have a huge population of patients headed my way or would EyeMed be the big player and directing even more people to Lenscrafters?  Would they in turn raise their reimbursements to me as a way of saying Wahoo, VSP is gone!! ?





> VSP / Eyemed the only difference is that Eyemed understands that its a retail game and want as many doors as possible on their roster. Until VSP gets their head out of the "We're pseudo-medical doctor's" they will continue to lose market share.



  So tell me where EyeMed directs their patients vs. where VSP does?    I know, Im beating a dead horse.
  Follow the money and tell me where EyeMed monies go. 
  Enlighten me too on how VSP supporting ODs is causing them to lose market share.  How is that impacting their battle with EyeMed at the Provider level?  



  Would any of us be better off if VSP lowered their prices to companies nationwide and drove their employees to retail stores like Pearl or LensCrafters?  Would you benefit from that?  I wouldnt.

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## racethe1320

> I also hope that you have Opticians working for you and reading this board!


I have two.  They know my feelings.  They also know their place in the world as it relates to VSP.  They were well aware going into their profession that the VSP Monster wasn't going to support them.  Then run a hell of a dispensary and do quite well.   I want them to.  Ironically, they are the ones who directed me here.

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## kcount

> They also know their place in the world as it relates to VSP.


Thank you for qualifying your statement with, "as it relates to VSP." From the balance of your mesage it's seems that you do value your opticians, as long as they "belong" to you.

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## racethe1320

> Thank you for qualifying your statement with, "as it relates to VSP." From the balance of your mesage it's seems that you do value your opticians, as long as they "belong" to you.


I've never implied in any of my posts that I don't value other opticians.  I will say that many here who complain about VSP and act like VSP is doing them wrong should have known better going into their profession where they stand.  VSP has always been about docs.   Reminds me of my neighbor who is still upset that our HOA won't allow privacy fences.  Guess he should have read the contract when he closed on his house.  But hey, somehow it's not his fault and our HOA is the one doing him wrong.

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## kcount

> At least you’re honest.   You actually sound just like the very same description so many here have said about your beloved VSP. “ They take your money and don’t care. “  Ironic.</quote> ironic? That OD's and Opticians think alike or that I don't like 3rd party but would be willing to enjoy the increased revenue? In the end we're both businessmen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <quote>
>   Considering they were formed by OD’s for OD’s and support OD’s…….You or anyone have yet to show me a business model that would support your belief that VSP will go retail.  You must have missed my previous post covering that.</quote> 
> 
> I didn't miss the statement that Costco was specifically asked for by Trader Joe's etc. but, if an organization that is of OD's and for OD's than why do they allow MD's on the panel?  Are MD's not MORE of a threat to your business model? Is a medical doctor than can do refractions AND Sx not your enemy?  Am I more of a threat if I employ said MD?  
> ...


Actually, I probably would benefit from that as would several other independent Opticians that I know. A significant amount of the population wants someone thats skilled and knowledgeable and we both know that can't or at least is a rare find in the chains.

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## kcount

> At least youre honest.   You actually sound just like the very same description so many here have said about your beloved VSP.  They take your money and dont care.   Ironic.</quote> 
> 
> ironic? That OD's and Opticians think alike or that I don't like 3rd party but would be willing to enjoy the increased revenue? In the end we're both businessmen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <quote>
>   Considering they were formed by ODs for ODs and support ODs.You or anyone have yet to show me a business model that would support your belief that VSP will go retail.  You must have missed my previous post covering that.</quote> 
> ...


Actually, I probably would benefit from that as would several other independent Opticians that I know. A significant amount of the population wants someone thats skilled and knowledgeable and we both know that can't or at least is a rare find in the chains.

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## Jubilee

Ok.. I have no horse in this race. I am a managing optician of a practice who happens to do 90% of the insurance stuff. If I were an OD, I would also be waving the VSP flag. I know my rep will drop here in mere minutes because through my husband's employer (fed) we have VSP as well. 

The reimbursements we receive from VSP signature plan far exceeds what we receive from the average Eyemed plan. The exam portion alone is $xx more. Single vision lenses, my dispensing fee from VSP is higher than the reimbursement from Eyemed, though I have to pay for the cost of goods through Eyemed. When you upgrade from the basic there is a chance you can make more money, however it all depends on your ability to control the cost of goods. In essence, my belief is that the IOF program is to allow us to make up the differential in those costs, if we are willing to do some of the work ourselves. The info I heard was the cost of the lenses were on par with the major stock houses, and the main reason they require you to buy them from VSP was make sure you gave that patient the poly with advance, not the somo with generic AR.. though you charged them for a cat D ARC. I am sure that another factor was that it would help offset some of the additional provider reimbursements by having us give them money back in return. ..

As a client, I like VSP because they offer more for their plans. Sure, I pay $10 more a month to have VSP compared to Davis or Specterra. I am also a lot more confident in the product, and my costs in the end are significantly less. (Even if I were paying the full copays ;) !)
$xxx for a FF lens, compared to 80% of U&C -$xxx. In most offices their would be a significant cost difference both to the patient and to the provider. My FEP plan covers photo, poly, ARC, and many other options for that $120 more a year. Davis charges for each of these items. Manufactures them in their own lab, to provide a reduced warranty compared to the manufacturer's warranty. 

In some of the more recent Eyemed plans, they now have set copays for certain progressives. Usually they are about $10-15 more compared to VSP's copays. However on a Panamic I can't make nearly as much money selling it for their price and paying for the cost of goods, compared to collecting a straight dispensing fee for the pal. We support VSP because we make more with VSP. They are also a lot easier to deal with on things too. If I were truly independent.. I would probably feel a lot different about it :)

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## kcount

hmm, laid out a plan of action for VSP and still nothing. Probably talking to the ODwire.org guys for a hammered out response.

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## loratz

This is a "WHAT IF" moment.What if a group of certified opticians that owned their own practice decided to group together to get in the insurance game for reimbursements for durable goods(glasses & contacts).But only 1 catch, ODs & MDs are excluded from taking this insurance.Result,continuous lawsuits from these ODs & MDs on how that's not fair and they want part of it.The Dr.s of course,would have it nipped in the bud within a year(due to unlimited funds and contacts) become eligible because they would say it is illegal to let some people take it and others can't and due to my credentials I would be well qualified.Kinda makes you think when the shoe is on the other foot.:bbg:

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## ak47

Lets revive this thread...are there still just a few v.s.p groups that are considered "in-network" at costco or is it many all of the groups now?

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## ml43

> Lets revive this thread...are there still just a few v.s.p groups that are considered "in-network" at costco or is it many all of the groups now?


costco is considered an affiliate provider.

for almost all plans(except discount and exam only), they are able to bill out of network and get reimbursed directly through their affiliate provider website/portal

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