# Optical Forums > Canadian Discussion Forum >  Essilor/Clearly Injunction Update

## optio

Sent by the COOptometrists today.

Dear Members,

I am pleased to update you that the application to seek an injunction preventing Essilor/Clearly from unlawfully dispensing prescription eyewear over the internet was successful. The College of Optometrists and the College of Opticians jointly filed the application in December 2016 and the matter was heard October 11, 2017. Justice Lederer delivered his decision January 11, 2018 in favour of the two regulatory colleges.

Although we are still reviewing the decision in detail, we are pleased that the court has agreed with the position of the colleges on the questions we brought forward. The two colleges are motivated by, and required by legislation to maintain, patient safety and the public interest. It is possible that the company may appeal the decision  that is their option. If the company does appeal, the colleges will continue to defend the public interest in court.

The colleges believe that the internet can be an effective tool for the provision of vision care, however the dispensing of corrective lenses is a controlled act, subject to Ontario legislation, that definitively requires a regulated health professionals involvement. Mail order over the internet without the involvement of an optometrist or optician is inconsistent with legislation.

The role of the colleges is to regulate the practice of optometry and opticianry to maintain and enhance public safety. The colleges do not have any bias in the dispensing of corrective lenses, or where those lenses are dispensed, as long as legislation and regulations are respected and standards are met.

Regards,
Dr. Paula Garshowitz
Registrar

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## optio

Curious about your experiences WRT this.

I've kinda noticed that PD requests really haven't "picked up" in the way everyone expected to say 5 years ago.  I get a PD request every few months.  So maybe 3-4/year, tops.  And I'd say that's even slightly down from say 2012-2013 (where I'd get maybe 6-7 requests/year).

Seems like there are those who want to get their glasses online, but it hasn't been a runaway train.  Seems to me online glasses has basically plateaued.

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## Quince

I would agree. 

I used to work at Eyemart and now I work for an independent. Eyemart's business use to be booming here. I'm talking a packed store all day everyday. Then people who bought there either had a bad customer experience or noticed a downgrade in quality and all those people trying to get the lowest price started coming back.

Nowadays, we have the same story but in regards to online purchases vs. discount stores.

Not too many inquires for PDs but more and more people will question _why_ they or their friend/ loved one had such a bad experience from online glasses. It seems to be more of an openly discussed topic now instead of beating around the bush.

Not in Canada, but close enough maybe?  :Giggle:

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## jc17777

I work at an Optometrist office and we do get P.D. requests but not very often. I feel like the people that took the biggest hits from online are the discount stores like Hakim, walmart ect.

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## Chris Ryser

*


*What is PD?

Source:
*https://www.framesdirect.com/landing...u-need-pd.html*



Pupil distance can be expressed in two ways:
Binocular PD is the total distance between your pupils.Monocular PD is the distance from the bridge of your nose to your pupil on each side. A monocular PD measurement will be _two numbers._?? _FramesDirect.com can use either of these measurements to custom-make your prescription lenses._Don't have a PD measurement? You can...Contact your optometrist orUse our PDCapture technology to measure it for you, directions below.

Source:
https://www.framesdirect.com/landing...u-need-pd.html

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## optio

> I feel like the people that took the biggest hits from online are the discount stores like Hakim, walmart ect.


Honestly, this is counter-intuitive to me.  People go to Walmart because prices there are cheap, or at least they are viewed as being inexpensive.  If someone is on a budget, they'll either go online, or go to Walmart and get glasses for $60.  If you're telling me they are opting to not spend $60 at WM, and instead, going online and paying $45, I'm pretty much going to disagree with you.  Although you may argue that those who go online are going for the "cheapest price", I'm going to counter that those folks who don't have the means to pay >$200 for glasses, are probably not that tech-savvy, and are probably going to buy their glasses at WM.

I don't bundle Hakim and WM together as Hakim isn't actually particularly cheap, despite their reputation for being so.  I'm pretty sure you're paying >$200 for SV in most cases.

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## acesrwylde

> *
> 
> 
> *What is PD?
> 
> Source
> *https://www.framesdirect.com/landing...u-need-pd.html*
> 
> 
> ...


I helped Beta test this system when they were developing it at framesdirect, it is highly accurate. We ran hundreds of PDs through this system and were usually within 1 mm from actual measured. You should see the things they were doing with seg heights as well. 

P.s. I no longer work there, so please don't hate me

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## Lab Insight

It's so nice seeing the Colleges enjoying their group hug and atta-boys.  Too bad its members have to pay the legals for this and the fact it's about 15 years too late. Now Clearly will simply appeal the decision and drag it out choking the Colleges out financially.

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## idispense

Did the transcript testimony admit to 700,000 pairs of eyewear being sold in Ontario since 2008 or is that incorrect ? If it's correct that's a lot of coin let 
taken on top of legal costs.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I helped Beta test this system when they were developing it at framesdirect, it is highly accurate. We ran hundreds of PDs through this system and were usually within 1 mm from actual measured. You should see the things they were doing with seg heights as well. 
> 
> P.s. I no longer work there, so please don't hate me*




.............................you are now a converted sinner and we love you for it.

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## Lab Insight

> .............................you are now a converted sinner and we love you for it.


bahahahaha...the first of many to follow and sing like canaries.

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## Trina

This is terrifying to me - if the seg heights and PD are accurate, then that's a huge percentage of people who will be happy with their online purchase.

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## Chris Ryser

> *This is terrifying to me - if the seg heights and PD are accurate, then that's a huge percentage of people who will be happy with their online purchase.
> *




To bad you are not located in Ontario were they are now prohibited from selling online.

However I can not figure how they will enforce that judgement.

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## Chris Ryser

*Essilor hit with online ban
Author: Luke Haynes
Published: 19/01/20182

Essilor Canada and its retail portal Clearly have been banned from unlawfully dispensing prescription eyewear on the internet in Ontario after two of the countrys regulatory establishments, the College of Optometrists and the College of Opticians,successfully applied for an injunction.

The regulatory colleges filed for the injunction in December 2016 and the matter was heard in October 2017, with a verdict reached last week.


In a statement, the Colleges said: We believe the internet can be an effective tool for the provision of vision care, however, the dispensing of corrective lenses is a controlled act, subject to Ontario legislation, that definitely requires a regulated health professionals involvement. Mail order over the internet without the involvement of an optometrist or optician is inconsistent with legislation.

source:
https://www.opticianonline.net/news/...ith-online-ban 
*

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## idispense

Did the judge, in his/her ruling give an example of how the offending parties websites might all be banned on a world wide basis by GOOGLE ? Why wasn’t done many years ago? When did it first came to light ?

What’s the award for legal costs ? 

How many eyeglasses and contact lenses were dispensed in the offending period of time ?

What’s the penalty for illegally dispensing huge quantities deemed illegal by a judgement? 

How does this penalty compare to what individual optometrists or opticians have paid for minor quantity infractions of this nature ? 

How will the members of the 2 colleges be individually reimbursed for their losses ?

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## Chris Ryser

> *Did the judge, in his/her ruling give an example of how the offending parties websites might all be banned on a world wide basis by GOOGLE ? Why wasnt done many years ago? When did it first came to light ?
> *



As far as I can see, the judge in this case has no authority over the internet whatsoever, neither has Google who lists more of the better sites than others, while they can punish somebody, by not listing them for one reason or another.

It takes a lot of work and effort to get ranked into the top of Google ranking, and stay there.

A successful website is not judged by its content, if it is not offending, but by the visitors they are getting. Pure mathematics and publicity.

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## idispense

Read the judges decision then, you might be quite surprised.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Read the judges decision then, you might be quite surprised.*




Whatever the judge decided, there are higher courts if you have enough cash for the lawyers and judges......................and you also can starve the colleges of ODs and Opticians of cash, you have heavily supported for the last 30 years.

We have just entered the last or second last month before the decision falls on the biggest optical merger ever.

Do you still see any privately owned gas stations on each side of the Atlantic or around the  Mediterranean ? They have all been gobbled up by the big oil companies. The trend of globalisation is well under way for a while and in a well prepared manner.

I would never have dreamed of it when I picked up the big chief of the then "ESSEL" with his wife, in the New York harbor in 1964 who arrived on the newest liner "France" staying in the presidential suite during the trip and then drove them to Montreal through the Adirondacks on the old highway. 

These days everything is done many times faster and the world is more progressive in everything, and in commerce is ruthless and fast. Independents are being replaced by monster companies.

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## idispense

Sounds like no one read the judgement reasons and no one read what the judge suggested for banning their web sites through google world wide.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Sounds like no one read the judgement reasons and no one read what the judge suggested for banning their web sites through google world wide.*



I would like to learn how you can ban a website through Google. The internet as far as I learned has been launched and operated by the USA since its existence.

Google does not have the power to prohibit a website from publishing the information they want out on the internet, nor close it down.

All Google could do is to stop to hand out all and any information on a website.

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## Lab Insight

> I would like to learn how you can ban a website through Google. The internet as far as I learned has been launched and operated by the USA since its existence.
> 
> Google does not have the power to prohibit a website from publishing the information they want out on the internet, nor close it down.
> 
> All Google could do is to stop to hand out all and any information on a website.


Google would have to be served a court order but what would that really accomplish?  Absolutely nothing as it's not Google's issue or liability at stake.  Besides, that would only happen if the accused continued to operate after they lost their appeal and in disregard for the court order to shut down.

It's highly unlikely to occur - the appeal has already been filed and one of two things will happen next:

1.  Their lawyers will simply now wither down the two colleges until they tap out or get choked out. 'Clearly' will continue to operate just as they are right now during the appeal process.  Or, 

2.  They will reach an out of court settlement where a substantial amount of funds will be given (donated) to the colleges to shut up and go away quietly - aka hush money.

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## Chris Ryser

> *It's highly unlikely to occur - the appeal has already been filed and one of two things will happen next:
> 
> **1.  Their lawyers will simply now wither down the two colleges until they tap out or get choked out. 'Clearly' will continue to operate just as they are right now during the appeal process.  Or, 
> 
> 2.  They will reach an out of court settlement where a substantial amount of funds will be given (donated) to the colleges to shut up and go away quietly - aka hush money.
> *





Lab Insight..............you just hit the nail on its head again !

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## Lab Insight

> Lab Insight..............you just hit the nail on its head again !


 :Timebomb:   :Nerd:

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## idispense

Go to either College websites and you can read the 31 pages of the judge’s decision there. Read it carefully and slowly when you get to the part of Google and how it’s been done before. These and other cases are well documented.

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## Lab Insight

> Go to either College websites and you can read the 31 pages of the judge’s decision there. Read it carefully and slowly when you get to the part of Google and how it’s been done before. These and other cases are well documented.


https://infoclip.ca/wp-content/uploa...ce_Lederer.pdf

IMHO, 

1. Selling is not dispensing.
2. The RHPA act is far outdated with today's consumer's sales channels.
3. There is a market of 'bottom feeder' consumers that willingly choose to order from the web to save money.
4. Essilor did the right things with those orders and provided assistance where needed.
5. Although other cases are well documented, there should be no influence from such on this appeal and final decision.
6. There has never been a single case documented of someone being injured or killed caused by self influenced web eyewear.

I get that people want to protect their own entities and self preservation, however that should have no bearing.  Any brick and mortar office is legally entitled to sell glasses online, yet not many have not taken the leap to do so. Yet, when a large innovative company starts to do so, then the BM office get upset.

The two colleges are far outdated and borderline antiquated.  They need to get with the times and technology for today's consumers.  If their mandate is to protect the public, why have they not been more saavy in keeping pace to do so and keeping their legislation current with today's consumer demands???

Essilor will win or settle the appeal guaranteed. A different judge will not have the same opinion as Lederer.

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## idispense

Optometrists and Opticians should read the judges decision and reasoning for yourself. It’s on each of your Colleges websites. Your license renewal fees are being spent on this and other expensive cases , therefore you should read what the trial judges have to say and why. Reading the transcript is the only way to understand the actual issue. It also tells a story as to how many glasses were sold. Reading the transcript is  not about protectionism, it’s about understanding the true legal issues, how they are interpreted and how the laws are changed.

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## Lab Insight

> Optometrists and Opticians should read the judges decision and reasoning for yourself. Its on each of your Colleges websites. Your license renewal fees are being spent on this and other expensive cases , therefore you should read what the trial judges have to say and why. Reading the transcript is the only way to understand the actual issue. It also tells a story as to how many glasses were sold. Reading the transcript is  not about protectionism, its about understanding the true legal issues, how they are interpreted and how the laws are changed.


I believe that is what is happening here.  Although everyone sits silent and lurks from the sidelines these days.

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## Lab Insight

The latest...

_Optik_ has obtained a statement from Essilor Canada responding to the ruling of the Ontario Superior Court in favour of the joint application by the College of Optometrists of Ontario and the College of Opticians of Ontario against Clearly, an online division of Essilor Canada Group Inc., to comply with Ontario’s dispensing regulations.
The full statement from Essilor Canada:“Essilor Canada is aware of the Ontario Court’s ruling. Clearly has filed a motion to appeal that decision and has filed an application to stay the Court’s decision as part of the appeal process.Essilor and its entire group of companies, are fully committed to complying with laws, regulations and requirements in all the countries and jurisdictions where we operate.Our corporate mission is to improve lives by improving sight. To achieve that, at Essilor Canada we firmly believe in the importance of adopting and embracing advancements in technology to not only better diagnose and prevent eye health issues but to also provide better access to vision correction and protection solutions.The reality is that in our industry and in many others, the needs of consumers are evolving and alternate channels are here and ever evolving.  It is of key importance for Essilor to continue to work hand-in-hand with Opticians, Optometrists and all eye care professionals while also addressing consumers’ new buying preferences, in order to provide access to the best quality of eye care for all Canadians.In the meantime, we continue to promote that good vision is part of good health and that regular eye exams should be performed by licensed eye care professionals.”

Well said trying to balance opportunity while preserving relationships?

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## optio

I personally liked this one.

_"The optician said that the address provided on the order was close to a store operated by the respondent and he suggested that the "customer" go there to get his frames adjusted once he received them."_

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## lensmanmd

So.  Here is a novel idea.  Website owners make extra revenue by placing click through ads on their page.  Though small, every time a visitor clicks on the ad/banner, the owner receives a few pennies.  
For B&Ms to cash in on web sales, partner with on line providers by having them post your ads, and/or provide adjustments for them based on click throughs.  The buyer will click a coupon, then present that coupon for adjustments.   No coupon, no freebies.  Every click brings you additional revenue, whether or not the consumer shows up.

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## Chris Ryser

> https://infoclip.ca/wp-content/uploa...ce_Lederer.pdf
> 
> Essilor will win or settle the appeal guaranteed. A different judge will not have the same opinion as Lederer.
> 
> *Coastal and Clearly have shipped over 700,000 pairs of glasses into Ontario over the last 10 years.....................
> 
> ..................which makes them the largest single optical retailer into Ontario
> *



......................the judgement says it all, and they are  located in Vancouver.

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## idispense

What's the penalty for dispensing 700,000 pairs deemed illegal by a judge?  What would these Colleges do to a member dispensing 7 pairs illegally, never mind 700,000 pairs ? What should members do with their own college boards allowing 700,000 pairs to be dispensed this way?

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## Lab Insight

> I personally liked this one.
> 
> _"The optician said that the address provided on the order was close to a store operated by the respondent and he suggested that the "customer" go there to get his frames adjusted once he received them."_


We all pass the buck from time to time...

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## Lab Insight

> ......................the judgement says it all, and they are  located in Vancouver.


Wonder if they've yet made a single dollar profit?  Roger Hardy never did and sold it for over $400M.

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## Lab Insight

> What's the penalty for dispensing 700,000 pairs deemed illegal by a judge?  What would these Colleges do to a member dispensing 7 pairs illegally, never mind 700,000 pairs ? What should members do with their own college boards allowing 700,000 pairs to be dispensed this way?


What penalty?  Perhaps the colleges need to be penalized.  This was 15 years in the making and both colleges if you recall sat doing diddly while they traveled the world, padded their CV's and challenged each other legally on what an optician's scope should be.  

What we have today is the fallout.  Can't really blame Essilor on this one; they saw opportunity and bought huge market share volume.

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## Chris Ryser

> *What we have today is the fallout.  Can't really blame Essilor on this one; they saw opportunity and bought huge market share volume.*



They did see the opportunity, whatever they do is studied in depth before they do it. So it is not accidental.

After the merger they will control the biggest block of online opticals on a worldwide basis.

In India they have and are training 3000 young people to refract and are setting them up in small stores to sell and distribute glasses, in outlying small provincial towns, far from the modern world.

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## Lab Insight

> In India they have and are training 3000 young people to refract and are setting them up in small stores to sell and distribute glasses, in outlying small provincial towns, far from the modern world.


Is that not a good gesture to help improve quality of life to those who need it in India?

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## Don Gilman

> Is that not a good gesture to help improve quality of life to those who need it in India?


When those 5000 are trained and doing 30 refraction's  +/- 50? go figure how many more lenses and frames Essilux will sell. MIND BOGGLING !!!!  Bet'cha  they won't give em away.

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## Lab Insight

> When those 5000 are trained and doing 30 refraction's  +/- 50? go figure how many more lenses and frames Essilux will sell. MIND BOGGLING !!!!  Bet'cha  they won't give em away.


Exactly the point.  And why would they give them away?  Like it or not, Essilor is the only company operating with a long term game plan for strategic growth.  Just look at their accomplishments and stock; it speaks for itself.

All the other manufacturers like Hoya, Zeiss etc., consistently miss the boat of opportunity; reps even bash what Essilor is doing in the market place during sales calls in the hopes they make new friends and allies.

Essilor just expanded their technical team across Canada to better support their customers.  What have the other companies done for the ECP'S lately? Diddly.

Who's been the most innovative company and ahead of the curve breaking records every quarter?  Look at it in the perspective of being an investor looking for a strong stock performance; globally, up until now, they haven't disappointed.

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## idispense

> What penalty?  Perhaps the colleges need to be penalized.  This was 15 years in the making and both colleges if you recall sat doing diddly while they traveled the world, padded their CV's and challenged each other legally on what an optician's scope should be.  
> 
> What we have today is the fallout.  Can't really blame Essilor on this one; they saw opportunity and bought huge market share volume.


Exactly - why are the colleges being supported without penalty by the memberships ? If the judge found precedent to rule this way and suggest a legal means to block the web sites, then why have the Colleges and their lawyers allowed this and not enforced their mandates earlier ?

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## Lab Insight

> Exactly - why are the colleges being supported without penalty by the memberships ? If the judge found precedent to rule this way and suggest a legal means to block the web sites, then why have the Colleges and their lawyers allowed this and not enforced their mandates earlier ?


The judge should interrogate the Colleges separately and ask what they have done in the past to protect consumers to prevent the fiasco at hand.  Would be a pretty quick discussion.

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## optio

Look at the battle that's going on in the U.S.

https://americansforvisioncareinnovation.org/

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## Lab Insight

> Look at the battle that's going on in the U.S.
> 
> https://americansforvisioncareinnovation.org/


Seems Lux and now Essilux are still minority owners.  Independents should really be paying attention to who they purchase their products from.

In 2013 Wellpoint sold 1-800 Contacts toThomas H. Lee Partners and glasses.com to Luxottica.[7]AEA Investors acquired a majority interest in 1-800 Contacts in December 2015.[8]

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## Chris Ryser

> *Seems Lux and now Essilux are still minority owners.  Independents should really be paying attention to who they purchase their products from.
> *


According to Optiboard posts in general the independents have been singing glory to anybody they admired, not caring about business politics

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## Lab Insight

> According to Optiboard posts in general the independents have been singing glory to anybody they admired, not caring about business politics


You are exactly right Chris.  They also don't pay attention to double D cartoon characters and captain Harvey sticker programs to promote products by another large well known company.  What has happened to our industry???

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## drk

> This is terrifying to me - if the seg heights and PD are accurate, then that's a huge percentage of people who will be happy with their online purchase.


No.  It will not.

Be terrified that people in decision-making positions are so inept as to let this stuff go on.

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## drk

> To bad you are not located in Ontario were they are now prohibited from selling online.
> 
> However I can not figure how they will enforce that judgement.


Individual consumers won't be stopped.

But if anyone wants to go after these companies, now, all it will take is ONE case.

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## Chris Ryser

> *But if anyone wants to go after these companies, now, all it will take is ONE case.*



In the place the product is made it is legal .........................

How do you convict anybody  for shipping it to w

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## idispense

Doesn’t the judge tell the Colleges how to stop the sales and web sites? Doesn’t the judge say it’s  been done before and the judge quotes legal precedent and invites the Colleges to pursue the same approach? 

It’s up to membership to read the judgement, and understand it.

Where it’s made doesn’t matter, the judge’s approach would stop that. However, it’s up to the Colleges to enforce the judgement and it’s up to membership to hold the Colleges to that mandate and fund it.

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## Lab Insight

> In the place the product is made it is legal .........................
> 
> How do you convict anybody  for shipping it to w


The issue is legal jurisdiction.  These online companies may be challenged, but never stopped legally; its far too complex and would require funds that most could never afford.

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## idispense

The judge had reasons and precedent for both his judgement and his advice to the Colleges and cited real life examples.

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## Lab Insight

> The judge had reasons and precedent for both his judgement and his advice to the Colleges and cited real life examples.


Yes, but no judge has the authority to rule and enforce his/her decision in multiple jurisdictions to effectively cease both the manufacturing and sales via the web.

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## Chris Ryser

> *The judge had reasons and precedent for both his judgement and his* 
> *advice to the Colleges and cited real life examples.
> *



The largest supporter of optical and optometry Colleges over the last many years has been Essilor in North America.

The largest block of online opticals will be the Essilux owned ones after the official merger.

Do we really expect the Colleges to be on the side of the individual retailers ?

Should we really be dreaming in color or use blue blocking lenses ?

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## drk

You mean they've bought just about everyone off?

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## idispense

This article claims that blocking can work and it’s been done before. 

https://searchengineland.com/google-response-to-mississipi-subpeona-weve-blocked-over-3-million-ads-from-rogue-pharmacies-164054

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## Chris Ryser

> *This article claims that blocking can work and its been done before.*



This article talks about Google blocking ads of illegal pharmacies and drugs in 2013..........we are now in 2018 and the web has changed a lot since then, so has the optical business with the online companies.

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## idispense

The article speaks of blocking millions of illegal ads.  There are not millions of online eyeglass vendors. 

The article speaks of a decline of 99 % of illegal pharmacy ads. 

The article speaks of a 500 million dollar fine. 

What are the Colleges each seeking in penalty,fines, damages and legal costs on behalf of their memberships and to protect the public in the future ? 

How will the Colleges use those damage payments to reimburse their membership for the costs and damages they have each individually suffered ?

The judges ruling is current year. All legal precedents are predicated in the past, and define and shape the future.

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## Chris Ryser

> *What are the Colleges each seeking in penalty,fines, damages and legal costs on behalf of their memberships and to protect the public in the future ?*



Big E has officially supported the Colleges in Canada for sure many years, by helping their financing problems, and I bet just  about all the tea in China, that they will not take the legal channel against them.

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## Lab Insight

> Big E has officially supported the Colleges in Canada for sure many years, by helping their financing problems, and I bet just  about all the tea in China, that they will not take the legal channel against them.


The Colleges have no choice but to wag the dog so it appears like they are actually doing something for their members.  At the same time, they will never bite the hand that feeds them.  And believe me, they have been fed well over the years by Essilor and other companies.

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## Chris Ryser

> *What are the Colleges each seeking in penalty,fines, damages and legal costs on behalf of their memberships and to protect the public in the future ?*




Essilor has purchased Clearly already 4 years back and nobody has started any action against the fact, I have heard of. Essilor has since then acquired quite an assortment of other online optical retailers world wide.

In a few month there will be completion of the merger with Lux, after all hurdles have been overcome at this date.

You will have to live with the most powerful optical corporation that has ever existed, and it has the benediction
of all governments involved in that merger. 

Not bad for a company that started in Montreal Canada by choosing  4 or 5 optometrist to form a wholesale company to represent them in Canada, with the local American Optical lab-manager as their director.  However it only lasted about 3-4 years until they went bankrupt and Essilor stepped in and took them over.

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## Chris Ryser

*News From the College*
*Legal Update*Essilor has appealed the January 11, 2018 decision of Justice Lederer which ordered that it may not dispense prescription eyewear in Ontario unless the dispensing is performed by an optometrist, optician or physician who is licenced to practice in Ontario. The appeal is scheduled to be heard in May, 2018. Last week, the Court of Appeal granted Essilor's request to stay Justice Lederer's order until the appeal is determined. This means that Essilor can continue their "business as usual" until its appeal is heard and decided. If the appeal is dismissed, Justice Lederer's order will go into effect.

In an effort to protect Ontario patients, the College of Opticians in partnership with the College of Optometrists of Ontario initiated a legal proceeding against Essilor Group of Canada Inc./Clearly.  Essilor is the company that owns and operates the online entity _Clearly_. The Colleges were concerned that Essilor/Clearly have been dispensing prescription eyewear via their website to patients in Ontario without the direct involvement of an optician, optometrist, or physician who is licensed to practice in Ontario. This is a violation of provincial law.
The College of Opticiansand the College of Optometrists jointlyfiled an application in December of 2016 and the matter was heard October 11,2017.  Justice Lederer delivered his decision on January 11, 2018 in favorof the two regulatory colleges.

Althoughthe Colleges are still reviewing the decision in detail, they are pleased thatthe court has agreed with the position of the two Colleges on the questions webrought forward. The two Colleges are motivated by and required by legislationto maintain patient safety and to act in the public interest.

The role of the Colleges is to regulate the practice ofoptometry and opticianry in order to maintain and enhance public safety. The Colleges support increased access to care for the patient, whether it bevia the internet or any other method that as long as legislation andregulations are respected, and standards are met ensuring patient safety.


*The Colleges support increased access to care for the patient, whether it bevia the internet or any other method that as long as legislation andregulations are respected, and standards are met ensuring patient safety.


*view the court findings (PDF):

http://www.coptont.org/docs/Discipli...Jan11-2018.pdf

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## Chris Ryser

> *Did the transcript testimony admit to 700,000 pairs of eyewear being sold in Ontario since 2008 or is that incorrect ?** If it's correct that's a lot of coin let taken on top of legal costs.*




.................we better start believing these figures and take some action on it. It is time to stop downplaying these figures as it has been done for the last 10 years.

Opticians have always taken a very generous markup factor for frames and lenses, and with a good reason.

There was always lens breakage, especially in times of glass lenses, as well as plastic frames burning up when heating them over a bunsen burner. 

These days, when there is only a select part of all opticians, that are doing their own cut and grind in their own in house lab, and the rest is outsourcing the lab work, which elevates the price of finishing optical prescritions. 

The big merger is going to happen at the end of June at which time the Essilux will own the biggest block of online optical companies with an additional minimum of 5,000 LensCrafter stores to service them, to start with.

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## Chris Ryser

So said the judge:


The Court engaged in a fascinating discussion of the location of events over the internet. It cited authorities viewing such interactions as occurring both here and there. The Court concluded that where the order was placed by an individual in Ontario and the eyewear was received in Ontario, presumably to be used in Ontario, there was a sufficient connection to Ontario. To find otherwise would mean the eyeglasses are provided without obligation to adhere to Ontario regulation. 

*The Court was also not swayed by the fact that ordering lenses and eyeglasses online was permitted in British Columbia;* *such a change in the law in Ontario should be done by the legislature, not the courts.

*source:
http://acao.ca/notice-esslior-court-case

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## Chris Ryser

..........and here comes Quebec


*Seven times more Quebecers to consider buying their eyewear online ……………*

NEWS PROVIDED BY *Clearly*
Apr 11, 2018, 06:00 ET

MONTRÉAL, April 11, 2018 /CNW Telbec/- The number of Quebecers who plan to purchase glasses or contact lenses online will grow exponentially in the next two years, according to a new survey conducted by Leger on behalf of Clearly (clearly.ca), the leading Canadian Online optical retailer. Seven per cent of online shoppers (consumers who make purchase online), who need vision correction, currently buy their glasses or contact lenses on the web. This percentage is expected to rise to 50% within the next two years and see seven times more Quebecers consider purchasing eyewear products online.

While most Quebec online shoppers have never experienced buying glasses or contact lenses online (83%),the majority of those who have tried are satisfied (75%). Consumers who purchase their vision products online mainly appreciate the low prices (74%),promotions offered (31%) and convenience of the buying process (28%).Interestingly, Quebecers aged 18 to 34 give priority to price (65%) and style(41%) when choosing their glasses, whereas the majority of those aged 55 andover, believe quality of service is the most important factor (54%).


"The data shows that online eyewear in Quebec is an important market to be explored," said *Arnaud Bussières, General Manager of Clearly. "As a Canadian leader in the field, we are certain that our quality products at competitive prices, our impeccable customer service and our mission to offer better vision for all will convince Quebecers That purchasing glasses and contact lenses online is a win-win for them."*


See all of it:
https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...679366583.html

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## optio

_>Seven per cent of online shoppers (consumers who make purchase online), who need vision correction, currently buy their glasses or contact lenses on the web. This percentage is expected to rise to 50% within the next two years and see seven times more Quebecers consider purchasing eyewear products online._

Does the article explain why online purchase of glasses is supposed to increase by 7 times in the next two years?  If true, that's obviously going to be groundbreaking for the current market.  But what is their supposed rationale for this increase?  An increase from 7% to 50% in two years, for a product/service that has been around a number of years already, is quite the prediction to make.

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## idispense

Critical Mass

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## Lab Insight

> _>Seven per cent of online shoppers (consumers who make purchase online), who need vision correction, currently buy their glasses or contact lenses on the web. This percentage is expected to rise to 50% within the next two years and see seven times more Quebecers consider purchasing eyewear products online._
> 
> Does the article explain why online purchase of glasses is supposed to increase by 7 times in the next two years?  If true, that's obviously going to be groundbreaking for the current market.  But what is their supposed rationale for this increase?  An increase from 7% to 50% in two years, for a product/service that has been around a number of years already, is quite the prediction to make.


It won't, that's an impossible feat.  Not even they can achieve growth of that stature that quickly.  I predict 15% max within 2 years, which is double of today.

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## idispense

The uncertainties, the fear, the self made pd measurements,and after market service, will all be solved. Then with critical mass the growth will follow.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Does the article explain why online purchase of glasses is supposed to increase by 7 times in the next two years?  If true, that's obviously going to be groundbreaking for the current market.  But what is their supposed rationale for this increase?  An increase from 7% to 50% in two years,* *for a product/service that has been around a number of years already, is quite the prediction to make.*



You have to take into account that Clearly is owned by Essilor which will own after the marriage with Luxottica about 35% of all the online opticals.

They will also control some 10,000 optical retail stores and chains together, and more in the coming.

As per post's right here on OptiBoard the LensCrafter stores are discontinuing their individual service labs already for a while.

It is only logical to assume, that all these stores will also act as service stations for eyeglasses sold by Essilux owned online opticals.

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## LongLivIndependent

It opens the doors to deregulation, like it did in BC. This group backed by big E garnered 4400k members. 
https://www.facebook.com/Canadians-f...6363111135047/

This is how it happened in BC:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...tion-1.1120540


The merger is going to swallow up more independents. If you try to move all of our biz away from them and they offer you everything under the sun to keep you. 

ECPs need to find alternatives to supporting the parent company and ignore their offers for bigger discounts. We need to not keep supporting them. There was a boycott a few years ago in Ontario, and they lost big $$$$. You can help associations and colleges.
Money talks ...

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## LongLivIndependent

It opens the doors to deregulation, like it did in BC. This group backed by big E garnered 4400k members. 
https://www.facebook.com/Canadians-f...6363111135047/

This is how it happened in BC. Campaign 'support'.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...tion-1.1120540


The merger is going to swallow up more independents. If you try to move all of our biz away from them, they offer you everything under the sun to keep you. 

We need to find alternatives to supporting the parent company and ignore their offers for bigger discounts. We need to not keep supporting them. There was a boycott a few years ago in Ontario, and they lost big $$$$.

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## Chris Ryser

> *The merger is going to swallow up more independents. If you try to move all of our biz away from them, they offer you everything under the sun to keep you. 
> 
> We need to find alternatives to supporting the parent company and ignore their offers for bigger discounts. We need to not keep supporting them. There was a boycott a few years ago in Ontario, and they lost big $$$$.
> *




There will be no boycott.The professional associations have openly taken support by these companies for years. The governments have approved the deal on a worldwide basis.

They also own the biggest block of online opticals and there is nothing that you, nor any association, will or can do. 

The optical retail world is in for the biggest change ever, since its existence a few hundred years back.

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## Lab Insight

> There will be no boycott.The professional associations have openly taken support by these companies for years. The governments have approved the deal on a worldwide basis.
> 
> They also own the biggest block of online opticals and there is nothing that you, nor any association, will or can do. 
> 
> The optical retail world is in for the biggest change ever, since its existence a few hundred years back.


A boycott is impossible for the simple reason the consumer demand drives the branding and one must comply to survive.  So one has to suck it up and keep placing their orders for their RayBans.  That said, both of these companies are struggling right now and their perception within the industry couldn't be any worse.  It's a catch 22.

The morale with employees is also very low right now.  I know many of them personally. They have been cutting top management positions and continue to do so.  There have been well documented operational issues also. Try to order a frame and its either back ordered or takes 2-3 weeks to arrive.

This marriage is equivalent to an arranged royal wedding.  I think it will initially get even worse once they amalgamate and try to synergize both worlds.  We must stop worrying about what they're going to do and start taking the lead.  They may beat you in price, but certainly never service.  Large corporations don't really know what service is.

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## Chris Ryser

> 1
> 
> We must stop worrying about what they're going to do and start taking the lead.  They may beat you in price, but certainly never service.  Large corporations don't really know what service is.




You could also sell at cost and charge for service itemized.

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## Lab Insight

> You could also sell at cost and charge for service itemized.


Chris, the issue with that model is a consumer can purchase the same brands online with a selling price lower than your cost.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Chris, the issue with that model is a consumer can purchase the same brands online with a selling price lower than your cost.*



Then all is left to sell and promote is service, from adjusting to whatever is needed.

You can not reverse history. I have not yet purchased any glasses online, but everything else from cameras to air conditioners if I can save 30 to 40% over regular retail.  

The Essilux merger will make them the largest block of optical online retailers, worldwide.

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## Lab Insight

> Then all is left to sell and promote is service, from adjusting to whatever is needed.
> 
> You can not reverse history. I have not yet purchased any glasses online, but everything else from cameras to air conditioners if I can save 30 to 40% over regular retail.  
> 
> The Essilux merger will make them the largest block of optical online retailers, worldwide.


Consumers are never that loyal.  Import the Chinese knock offs of the brands at a fraction of the price and now one can compete.  It's already happening and most aren't even aware of it, nor can they tell the difference.

As for the lenses, there are hundreds of private label brands in today's marketplace that will perform the same in quality as the big boys also at a fraction of the price.

ECP's don't realize that there are other options out there if you search hard enough. Corporations have basically brain washed them into believing there is nothing out there that compares with their products.  Even the Big H is guilty of this.  It's all BS and self preservation.

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## Chris Ryser

> *ECP's don't realize that there are other options out there if you search hard enough. Corporations have basically brain washed them into believing there is nothing out there that compares with their products.  Even the Big H is guilty of this.  It's all BS and self preservation.
> *



Good point.......................

So far nobody has else come up with another action idea to counter what is going start in a few days from today, or anytime thereafter.

Optiboard and a very few others, are your only instant and direct communication means left on the internet, at a time when such a means is of the highest value.

As of next Monday July 2, 2018 we can expect to hear, that the merger has been completed or will happen anytime now, and read and experience a new way, to sell eyeglasses to the public, in massive worldwide, news and advertising campaigns.

The official change of optical eyeglass retail sales, is going to happen over the next few days !

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## Lab Insight

> Good point.......................
> 
> So far nobody has else come up with another action idea to counter what is going start in a few days from today, or anytime thereafter.
> 
> Optiboard and a very few others, are your only instant and direct communication means left on the internet, at a time when such a means is of the highest value.
> 
> As of next Monday July 2, 2018 we can expect to hear, that the merger has been completed or will happen anytime now, and read and experience a new way, to sell eyeglasses to the public, in massive worldwide, news and advertising campaigns.
> 
> The official change of optical eyeglass retail sales, is going to happen over the next few days !


The sun will still rise and set that day Chris. The OD's I've spoken with recently are starting to make the migration away from them but it's a slow process for most. To change an entire office and retrain your staff requires time and patience.

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## Chris Ryser

So now with the postponement to the end of July they all can relax.

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## Lab Insight

> So now with the postponement to the end of July they all can relax.


China could pull a Trump and end the whole thing dead in its tracks.

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## Chris Ryser

> *China could pull a Trump and end the whole thing dead in its tracks.*



If China would pull a Trump as you say .............the counter move by the French/Italians could also threaten to pull out all of their manufacturing in China and move it to another location.

.............and here is the real reason:


*Lensmaker has farsighted vision*

*By Shi Jing in Shanghai | ChinaDaily | Updated: 2018-02-13 09:54
*

*We entered* *China In 1995. Now, 800 million Chinese people need vision correction but only a few hundreds of them have really corrected their vision. The biggest vision issues in* *China is* *myopia. To that end, our first purpose in* *China** is to enlarge our capacity of production. That's why we have done a number of partnerships in the past few years.*



*See all of it:*

*http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/a/20180...dcc13c742.html*

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## Lab Insight

> If China would pull a Trump as you say .............the counter move by the French/Italians could also threaten to pull out all of their manufacturing in China and move it to another location.
> 
> .............and here is the real reason:
> 
> 
> *Lensmaker has farsighted vision*
> 
> *By Shi Jing in Shanghai | ChinaDaily | Updated: 2018-02-13 09:54
> *
> ...


Which would then transpire into a price increase on all products that are already far over priced.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Which would then transpire into a price increase on all products that are already far over priced.*



Yes it would .............................

A price increase at the manufacturing level in today's business world will translate into a higher cost to the end user. Depending on the product type and multiplier used, as well as through how many hands it goes before reaching the end user.

In the optical retail, which has used and enjoyed one of the higher markups for the last 200 years because of the high level of lens breakage cost when they were still made in glass.

In the newest wave of optical eyeglass sellers on the internet
the largest block is owned by the world's largest two optical manufacturers which are expected to merge at the end of this month, July 2018, and  their pricing hike would be minimal to even make a difference on the retail level.

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## optio

*Essilor/Clearly Injunction Appeal Update*
In an effort to protect Ontario patients, the College of Optometrists of Ontario and the College of Opticians of Ontario initiated a legal proceeding against Essilor Group of Canada Inc./Clearly. The Colleges sought an injunction that would prohibit Clearly from dispensing prescription eyeglasses and contact lenses online to the Ontario public, without following Ontario legislation. On January 11, 2018, the Superior Court of Justice for Ontario granted the injunction. Clearly sought an appeal of the decision, which was heard on September 21, 2018.

On April 4, 2019, the Court of Appeal for Ontario released its decision granting Clearlys appeal.

The College of Optometrists of Ontario and the College of Opticians of Ontario are disappointed with the outcome of this appeal. We will take time to conduct a more fulsome review of the decision and provide further information at a later date.

The full press release can be found on the College website.

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## idispense

Really? How many years have they had now to "conduct a more fulsome review?"  The real question is "Why did Ontario colleges decide to go to court this late in the game?" 
It's hard to see how that choice has anything to do with "in an effort to protect Ontario patients". With all the previous losses it seems more likely it was an effort to legalize what they have no idea how to stop. The only way this "protects Ontario patients" is to legalize what the patients are doing anyhow while they snub their noses at colleges and college members.  The entire concept of the Colleges "protecting patients" line is very tired.

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## Lab Insight

> Really? How many years have they had now to "conduct a more fulsome review?"  The real question is "Why did Ontario colleges decide to go to court this late in the game?" 
> It's hard to see how that choice has anything to do with "in an effort to protect Ontario patients". With all the previous losses it seems more likely it was an effort to legalize what they have no idea how to stop. The only way this "protects Ontario patients" is to legalize what the patients are doing anyhow while they snub their noses at colleges and college members.  The entire concept of the Colleges "protecting patients" line is very tired.


Too little too late.  Consumers will do what they want these days and the necessity of a governing body(s) to protect those same consumers from those horrible heinous serial killer mass murderer opticians and optometrists that are on episodes of forensic files is no longer needed.  I can recall two really bad apples over the years, but nobody ever got hurt or injured.

The colleges are a self serving make work project full of perks, entitlements and special privileges for its internal staff and registrars, all compiled financially from its members and the large corporations that they then do a 180 on to actually look like they're doing something for its members.

idispense, surely you recall from just a few years ago that lovely duo hobnobbing all over the world who were never to be seen again, having expensive dinners, enjoying the chardonnay and cab franc while at the same time making enemies with the OD college?  They should have been making allies back then and now all has come full circle.  I remember when the two colleges almost sued each other, what a joke.

I'm guessing to cover those large legal bills, there will be huge membership increases on the horizon.  Even better, the serving of humble pie coming when both colleges put their tails between their legs and extend their hands back out looking for more corporate donations.

Whip cream anyone?

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## idispense

Save the cream for my coffee,please.

In the transcripts of the very first Clearly judgement and appeals in BC , the judges gave guidance to every College as to how to solve this. Non listened or non read it. Which of the hired lawyers read it ? How many decades old is that case now?

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## Oscar

hurray inrceased member fees




> idispense, surely you recall from just a few years ago that lovely duo hobnobbing all over the world who were never to be seen again, having expensive dinners, enjoying the chardonnay and cab franc while at the same time making enemies with the OD college? They should have been making allies back then and now all has come full circle. I remember when the two colleges almost sued each other, what a joke.
> ?




which duo?

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## Lab Insight

> hurray inrceased member fees
> 
> 
> 
> which duo?


If you don't know already, you will have to do some research.

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## Oscar

> If you don't know already, you will have to do some research.


Where can I start? I don't even know what faction you are referring to anymore. This place is the only place I get opinionated news from

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