# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Freeform Pricing??

## buckeyefan

We just started an account with Hoya about a month and a half ago.  So far all the patients love the product and we have not had any complaints.  Before we used mostly Essilor and did not prescribe many freeform lenses.  Now with Hoya we are using a lot more free form.  We are currently updating our prices for everything (long over due).  As for the PAL's we are thinking about offering a good, better, best type of thing.  Starting with the Summit IQ (good), Array (better), ID Lifestyle 2 (best), then the ID Mystyle (ultimate).  All are freeform lenses, but does anyone have an idea of about what percentage the price should go up for each lens?  Thank you for your input!

----------


## Golfnorth

> We just started an account with Hoya about a month and a half ago.  So far all the patients love the product and we have not had any complaints.  Before we used mostly Essilor and did not prescribe many freeform lenses.  Now with Hoya we are using a lot more free form.  We are currently updating our prices for everything (long over due).  As for the PAL's we are thinking about offering a good, better, best type of thing.  Starting with the Summit IQ (good), Array (better), ID Lifestyle 2 (best), then the ID Mystyle (ultimate).  All are freeform lenses, but does anyone have an idea of about what percentage the price should go up for each lens?  Thank you for your input!


\

How about use a mark-up formula (the same you use for all progressives) then apply it to the wholesale cost of each lens that you mentioned above?

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## EyeCare Rich

Totally agree with Golfnorth here.  Keeps your margins easy to follow.  Formula works for all retail products.

----------


## ThatOneGuy

I would also caution against the MyStyle as being positioned "above" anything else.  The MyStyle is a tricky creature to master because of the subjective questions skewing the results.  For instance, if you do lots of up close and midrange work throughout the day and for all of your hobbies, you'll end up with a great lens for that, except that it might not take in to account your 2 hours of commuting every day.  MyStyle is more of a marketing gimmick than an above premium lens product.  

To say another way, the optics and performance will be fine, but you'll shoot yourself in the foot if a patient is used to wide distance vision (for instance) and ends up with a super narrow field of view, even though it is "better."  I'm trying to caution you on HOW you sell the lens, not caution you against selling the lens.

----------


## Golfnorth

> I would also caution against the MyStyle as being positioned "above" anything else.  The MyStyle is a tricky creature to master because of the subjective questions skewing the results.  For instance, if you do lots of up close and midrange work throughout the day and for all of your hobbies, you'll end up with a great lens for that, except that it might not take in to account your 2 hours of commuting every day.  MyStyle is more of a marketing gimmick than an above premium lens product.  
> 
> To say another way, the optics and performance will be fine, but you'll shoot yourself in the foot if a patient is used to wide distance vision (for instance) and ends up with a super narrow field of view, even though it is "better."  I'm trying to caution you on HOW you sell the lens, not caution you against selling the lens.


We sell the Mystyle as our Best lens and haven't run into the issue that you describe above thank God.

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## merrymaker

> We sell the Mystyle as our Best lens and haven't run into the issue that you describe above thank God.
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


We are a big time Hoya account (less-so these days due to lab issues) but I haven't found the Mystyle to be all that its sold to be.  The ID2 seems to work just as well.  

Although ThatOneGuy brings up some interesting points.  Maybe I havent put the right eyeballs in that design.

----------


## buckeyefan

I haven't sold any Mystyles yet.  Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions.  We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers.  Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in?  Thanks!

----------


## Golfnorth

> I haven't sold any Mystyles yet.  Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions.  We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers.  Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in?  Thanks!


Your rep sounds like a dolt. There is an IDMystyle Rx order pad that has 16 different icons which the customer is asked to pick 5 or 6 that resonate with them the most. Then they are asked to rank the 5 or 6 on a scale of 1 to 5 with #1 being not very important to #5 being very important. You also receive a kit with instruments that measure the vertex, frame wrap and pantoscopic tilt. You are also asked what the client's previous prescription is and what progressive lens design (if any) they are currently wearing. From all that the Mystyle lenses are designed for the client. Oh and I almost forgot......you measure not only the monocular distance pd but also the near. The inset is customized to the client as not everybody has a 2mm inset for reading.

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## buckeyefan

Yea, She never mentioned any of that.   In your opinion, are the Mystyles that much better than the LifeStyle 2?  She gave us a few free vouchers for lenses and I put our office manager in A lifestyle 2 clarity and she absolutely loves them.    I just wear single vision so I have to rely on others to tell me!

----------


## Golfnorth

> Yea, She never mentioned any of that.  You gave me more information than she has in her three visits here!  Thank you!  In your opinion, are the Mystyles that much better than the LifeStyle 2?  She gave us a few free vouchers for lenses and I put our office manager in A lifestyle 2 clarity and she absolutely loves them.  She likes them better than the Varilux S.  I just wear single vision so I have to rely on others to tell me!


That is a hard question for me to answer as I have the Lifestyle in my golf glasses (with the add reduced .50). I'm wearing the IDMtstyles today and I always find that the peripheral is the sharpest of any lens I wear in the store. We are currently positioning the Mystyle as our absolute best lens with the option of going to the Lifestyle if there is a price objection. Here's an interesting story for you.....I switched over a Seiko Supercede wearer to the IDMystle. I thought she might notice a bit of a difference as she was wearing Seiko's best lens at the time of purchase. Well I got a WOW out of her when I put her Mystyles on her. I was very surprised to say the least as what she was wearing was no slouch.

If you are trying to pick one (Lifestyle vs. MyStyle) over the other I would choose the Mystyle. It gives you the advantage of differentiating your practice with all the different tools and measurements taken to provide a pair of personalized and customized progressive lenses for your client.

I hope this helps you.

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## m0002a

> If you are trying to pick one (Lifestyle vs. MyStyle) over the other I would choose the Mystyle. It gives you the advantage of differentiating your practice with all the different tools and measurements taken to provide a pair of personalized and customized progressive lenses for your client.


The LifeStyle and MyStyle are basically the same design, except that the LifeStyle comes in two *fixed* models:

*Harmony -* A balanced, relatively soft design with long corridor (depending on B height) that has good intermediate.*Clarity -* A hard design with short corridor, emphasizing distance and reading at expensive of intermediate.

The MyStyle in theory has many possible variations and not just limited to the two above. The exact variation you end up with is based on the patient answering questions as indicated by a post above about what activities they typical do, and to prioritize each. Exactly how many different possible variations there are with MyStyle is unknown to me. 

As mentioned by ThatOneGuy, the questions for the MyStyle are extremely problematic in that when I answered them for my own MyStyle lens order, the order summary indicated I had chosen an hard design with short intermediate corridor, when that is exactly what I did not want. So the interpretation of the questions and answers by the software is seriously suspect. I decided to order the LifeStyle 2 Harmony instead of MyStyle, and am very satisfied with them (as in WOW).

The MyStyle also accepts some other measurements and input from customer as described by Golfnorth above. But I have no idea how it interprets (for example) what current brand of progressive lens the patient is wearing, and how satisfied they are with them. This seems like a stupid question, open to misinterpretation by the software, unless you know why the patient was or was not satisfied. Also, some people are satisfied with a crappy Essilor lens, simply because they have never experienced anything better. For all these custom measurements/questions asked for a MyStyle, the LifeStyle instead just uses customer averages for previous orders of MyStyle lenses (according to the Hoya education online class I took). *So my understanding is that if the patient answered the MyStyle questions a certain way, and the other measurements were defaulted (or measured to be the same as defaults), they could (in theory) end up with the identical lens as one of the two LifeStyle models, since LifeStyle and MyStyle are basically the same design.
*
I think Hoya would be better off expanding the LifeStyle designs to have one or two more options besides Harmony and Clarity (Zeiss has three for their ID 2), and let the optician work with the patient to decide which one is best. The other customization options (panto, near PD, etc) could be optional inputs, just like Zeiss ID 2.

----------


## m0002a

> Your rep sounds like a dolt. There is an IDMystyle Rx order pad that has 16 different icons which the customer is asked to pick 5 or 6 that resonate with them the most...


The customer can also answer the questions using the Hoya online web order system. This has the advantage of, when the order is complete, the Hoya order system tells you what kind of lens you are getting (short corridor, long corridor, etc) based on answers to the questions. As soon as I saw what the software interpreted from my answers (a hard design, exactly opposite from what I wanted), I cancelled the MyStyle order and ordered LifeStyle Harmony instead.

----------


## obiwan

In Australia at least, Harmony and Clarity both have long and short versions. I have all 4 combinations.
And in Australia, MyStyle V+ has just replaced MyStyle, have a few on order so shall see how they fare.

With MyStyle V+, just like Varilux S series, a right lens can't be supplied with knowing the left Rx and vice versa because of the binocular trickery both designs use to help with anisometropia. The LifeStyle V+'s don't do this so I don't think a MyStyle V+ can end up exactly like a "plain" Lifestyle V+ Harmony/Clarity.

----------


## m0002a

> In Australia at least, Harmony and Clarity both have long and short versions. I have all 4 combinations.
> And in Australia, MyStyle V+ has just replaced MyStyle, have a few on order so shall see how they fare.
> 
> With MyStyle V+, just like Varilux S series, a right lens can't be supplied with knowing the left Rx and vice versa because of the binocular trickery both designs use to help with anisometropia. The LifeStyle V+'s don't do this so I don't think a MyStyle V+ can end up exactly like a "plain" Lifestyle V+ Harmony/Clarity.


My understanding is that the LifeStyle is based on MyStyle "averages" so that if someone had an average Rx with regard to that condition, then it could be the same. But if some had an unusual condition, it would be different. Even for the MyStyle, if you don't take the extra measurements such as panto, vertex, etc, it will just use defaults (averages).

----------


## Rob Brown

> The LifeStyle and MyStyle are basically the same design, except that the LifeStyle comes in two *fixed* models:
> 
> *Harmony -* A balanced, relatively soft design with long corridor (depending on B height) that has good intermediate.*Clarity -* A hard design with short corridor, emphasizing distance and reading at expensive of intermediate.
> 
> The MyStyle in theory has many possible variations and not just limited to the two above. The exact variation you end up with is based on the patient answering questions as indicated by a post above about what activities they typical do, and to prioritize each. Exactly how many different possible variations there are with MyStyle is unknown to me. 
> 
> As mentioned by ThatOneGuy, the questions for the MyStyle are extremely problematic in that when I answered them for my own MyStyle lens order, the order summary indicated I had chosen an hard design with short intermediate corridor, when that is exactly what I did not want. So the interpretation of the questions and answers by the software is seriously suspect. I decided to order the LifeStyle 2 Harmony instead of MyStyle, and am very satisfied with them (as in WOW).
> 
> The MyStyle also accepts some other measurements and input from customer as described by Golfnorth above. But I have no idea how it interprets (for example) what current brand of progressive lens the patient is wearing, and how satisfied they are with them. This seems like a stupid question, open to misinterpretation by the software, unless you know why the patient was or was not satisfied. Also, some people are satisfied with a crappy Essilor lens, simply because they have never experienced anything better. For all these custom measurements/questions asked for a MyStyle, the LifeStyle instead just uses customer averages for previous orders of MyStyle lenses (according to the Hoya education online class I took). *So my understanding is that if the patient answered the MyStyle questions a certain way, and the other measurements were defaulted (or measured to be the same as defaults), they could (in theory) end up with the identical lens as one of the two LifeStyle models, since LifeStyle and MyStyle are basically the same design.
> ...


I currently operate a HOYA franchise lab up in Canada and was previously employed by them.  The Lifestyle 2 and MyStyle are not the same designs whatsoever and the FF processing is completely different.  Both are excellent and successful designs, however the MyStyle is the only lens currently on the globe that is a 100% true double sided free form design.  Hoya literally surfaces the front side, then surfaces the backside creating incredible results on both the front and back - no other manufacturer is doing this (although they claim to be).

With the MyStyle, there are numerous customization options based on the patient's responses and wearing history and all of this goes into the design process (when Signature Option level is chosen). The basic level Mystyle design (non Signature level) is still in my opinion an excellent option and still provides amazing results if you want to provide a premium superior product but don't have the time to dispense to that level of detail.  

The LS2 is a molded front design that contains all vertical gaze components on the front side, then the backside is processed using FF technology and contains the Rx and horizontal gaze components.  It is optimized but not to the same level as MyStyle and available in two versions, Clarity and Harmony.  Your Clarity and Harmony information is also incorrect.  The difference between the two options has nothing to do with corridor length since there is a regular and short corridor available in both designs.

Simply put, the Clarity design is more suitable for a patient that is a new presbyope and requires more use in the distance area of the lens.  The Harmony is suited more for a patient that requires more assistance at the reading level.  Both designs are excellent and full PALS.  When I receive orders for these and the type is not given, I choose the Harmony option as default for them.  

We sell a lot of these lenses and get incredible positive feedback with almost zero non-adapts on these products.

----------


## obiwan

Thank you for detailed post Rob. Do you guys still have the iD Classic/Instyle over there which here is positioned between Lifestyle V+ (which I guess you call Lifestyle2) and Mystyle? Or is that what you call "the non signature level mystyle"

----------


## m0002a

> I currently operate a HOYA franchise lab up in Canada and was previously employed by them.  The Lifestyle 2 and MyStyle are not the same designs whatsoever and the FF processing is completely different.  Both are excellent and successful designs, however the MyStyle is the only lens currently on the globe that is a 100% true double sided free form design.  Hoya literally surfaces the front side, then surfaces the backside creating incredible results on both the front and back - no other manufacturer is doing this (although they claim to be).
> 
> With the MyStyle, there are numerous customization options based on the patient's responses and wearing history and all of this goes into the design process (when Signature Option level is chosen). The basic level Mystyle design (non Signature level) is still in my opinion an excellent option and still provides amazing results if you want to provide a premium superior product but don't have the time to dispense to that level of detail.  
> 
> The LS2 is a molded front design that contains all vertical gaze components on the front side, then the backside is processed using FF technology and contains the Rx and horizontal gaze components.  It is optimized but not to the same level as MyStyle and available in two versions, Clarity and Harmony.  Your Clarity and Harmony information is also incorrect.  The difference between the two options has nothing to do with corridor length since there is a regular and short corridor available in both designs.
> 
> Simply put, the Clarity design is more suitable for a patient that is a new presbyope and requires more use in the distance area of the lens.  The Harmony is suited more for a patient that requires more assistance at the reading level.  Both designs are excellent and full PALS.  When I receive orders for these and the type is not given, I choose the Harmony option as default for them.  
> 
> We sell a lot of these lenses and get incredible positive feedback with almost zero non-adapts on these products.


I don't think anything you said inconsistent with my post (other than your conclusion). What I said is (and what Hoya claims) is that the LifeStyle lens (especially front surface that is premolded) is based on MyStyle averages, rather than being completely customized. Therefor it is "possible" that the two lenses could end up being the same (even though one has a molded front and the other is free form). It is possible to submit a MyStyle order without any of the custom measurements (other than the questionnaire, basic Rx, and PD), and defaults are used for the other measurements. I was speculating that it might be possible that someone could answer the questions in such a way as to end up with a lens the same as either the LifeStyle Harmony or Clarity, but I think only the software developers know the answer to that.

Regarding corridor length, a lens like the Harmony is (I assume) going to have a longer corridor and larger intermediate for a given frame size than the Clarity. My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is that the Clarity is a harder design (transitions faster from far to near) and does not have as large an intermediate as the Harmony does, and it is not just a matter of distance vs near. The issue of having two different fitting height designs is a slightly different subject.

So in summary, I think there is confusion between how a lens is made (freeform vs molded) versus how it actually ends up. My contention (based on the online Hoya education class I took) is that the two lenses (MyStyle and LifeStyle) are not completely different designs, even though they are made differently, and even though the MyStyle has more customizable features (that the average wearer might not need and the defaults would be fine). I also contend (and corroborated by _ThatOneGuy_ in his post above) that the MyStyple questionnaire and software interpretation of the answers is seriously flawed and could (as in my case when I placed a MyStyle order as discussed in my post above) result in a lens that is different than is what is desired or needed by the patient (difference meaning like the difference between LifeStyle Harmony vs Clarity). This is a software issue, not a manufacturing issue.

----------


## Rob Brown

> Thank you for detailed post Rob. Do you guys still have the iD Classic/Instyle over there which here is positioned between Lifestyle V+ (which I guess you call Lifestyle2) and Mystyle? Or is that what you call "the non signature level mystyle"


The 'iD' classic brand as it used to be called here in Canada was discontinued when the MyStyle was launched.  However, a very similar version of it is still available to a select group of OD's in Canada under a supply agreement known as 'Protegrity'.

The reference to standard non-Signature, Signature, and Signature Plus are all still 100% MyStyle; they are simply various levels of customization/personalization options.

Cheers,
Rob

----------


## Rob Brown

> I don't think anything you said inconsistent with my post (other than your conclusion). What I said is (and what Hoya claims) is that the LifeStyle lens (especially front surface that is premolded) is based on MyStyle averages, rather than being completely customized. Therefor it is "possible" that the two lenses could end up being the same (even though one has a molded front and the other is free form). It is possible to submit a MyStyle order without any of the custom measurements (other than the questionnaire, basic Rx, and PD), and defaults are used for the other measurements. I was speculating that it might be possible that someone could answer the questions in such a way as to end up with a lens the same as either the LifeStyle Harmony or Clarity, but I think only the software developers know the answer to that.
> 
> Regarding corridor length, a lens like the Harmony is (I assume) going to have a longer corridor and larger intermediate for a given frame size than the Clarity. My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is that the Clarity is a harder design (transitions faster from far to near) and does not have as large an intermediate as the Harmony does, and it is not just a matter of distance vs near. The issue of having two different fitting height designs is a slightly different subject.
> 
> So in summary, I think there is confusion between how a lens is made (freeform vs molded) versus how it actually ends up. My contention (based on the online Hoya education class I took) is that the two lenses (MyStyle and LifeStyle) are not completely different designs, even though they are made differently, and even though the MyStyle has more customizable features (that the average wearer might not need and the defaults would be fine). I also contend (and corroborated by _ThatOneGuy_ in his post above) that the MyStyple questionnaire and software interpretation of the answers is seriously flawed and could (as in my case when I placed a MyStyle order as discussed in my post above) result in a lens that is different than is what is desired or needed by the patient (difference meaning like the difference between LifeStyle Harmony vs Clarity). This is a software issue, not a manufacturing issue.


I would have to agree that although various brands from the same manufacturer differ in design and market positioning, the averages and defaults provided by the software are most likely very similar in value.

Regarding corridor length, since both Clarity and Harmony are available in a regular and short version, it is not the length that defines the difference between the two.  Also, the difference is not in the hardness either; although choosing the short corridor option on either design will add some hardness, but that's common with all manufacturer's designs.  

The difference as I mentioned in my last post is in the design by the software; the Clarity design is more suitable for a patient that is a new presbyope and requires more use in the distance area of the lens.  The Harmony is suited more for a patient that requires more assistance at the reading level.  I would interpret that (without prejudice to either design) as Clarity has a wider distance viewing area, and Harmony has a wider near viewing area.

That said, both have incredibly wide distance areas, hence why I pick Harmony as the default since the patient can then have the best of both worlds. 

In response to your last paragraph, when you order LS2, based on what version you prefer (Clarity or Harmony), a set of heights and monocular PD's and bingo Bob's your uncle.  There is nothing further required and the software will then do it's thing.

With MyStyle orders, this lens requires a lot more training to the person dispensing it (and time) to ensure the right questions are answered properly along with very accurate vertex, panto and wrap positions on the patient so that none of the information and customization points get lost in translation by either the dispenser or software.  As a side note, I have had the same high level of success with the standard level (non-Signature) orders, so perhaps sometimes less is more!?

Cheers,
Rob

----------


## m0002a

> The difference as I mentioned in my last post is in the design by the software; the Clarity design is more suitable for a patient that is a new presbyope and requires more use in the distance area of the lens.  The Harmony is suited more for a patient that requires more assistance at the reading level.
> 
>  I would interpret that (without prejudice to either design) as Clarity has a wider distance viewing area, and Harmony has a wider near viewing area.
> 
> That said, both have incredibly wide distance areas, hence why I pick Harmony as the default since the patient can then have the best of both worlds.


What about intermediate area? I believe that the Harmony has larger intermediate because it is a softer design (longer transition area from far to near). The Clarity, being a harder design with smaller intermediate, has better distance *and* better near than the Harmony. These days, with so many people using computers and mobile devices, intermediate is important to many patients.




> In response to your last paragraph, when you order LS2, based on what version you prefer (Clarity or Harmony), a set of heights and monocular PD's and bingo Bob's your uncle.  There is nothing further required and the software will then do it's thing.
> 
> With MyStyle orders, this lens requires a lot more training to the person dispensing it (and time) to ensure the right questions are answered properly along with very accurate vertex, panto and wrap positions on the patient so that none of the information and customization points get lost in translation by either the dispenser or software.  As a side note, I have had the same high level of success with the standard level (non-Signature) orders, so perhaps sometimes less is more!?


Once the patient picks at least 5 of the 15 actives, and prioritizes them, my recollection is that the MyStyle can be ordered without any further custom measurements (other than basic Rx), and defaults will be used when not entered. I know that when the order for my personal MyStyle was entered, no custom measurements were taken and the system determined the defaults (there may have been one exception to this, I don't recall). So it is not mandatory that all the custom measurements be taken for MyStyle. That doesn't mean the lenses (MyStyle and LifteStyle) are identical, but in the Hoya online education class I took on LifeStyle lens, Hoya said the LifeStyle lens is basically the same as the MyStyle, but the LifeStyle uses MyStyle averages for the other customizations, and which are pre-finished into the front of LifeStyle (so the only the back of LifeStyle needs to be FF). As you mentioned, MyStyle is FF on front or back for each patient.

The problem I had with the MyStyle is that after doing the patient questionnaire on the Hoya order website, the Hoya order summary said I would be getting a hard design with fast transition from far to near (small intermediate), which is exactly what I didn't want. So I cancelled the order and got LifeStyle Harmony instead, which is an excellent lens IMO. Others in this forum have commented on the ambiguity of the questionnaire and also questioned its accuracy. At least with LifeStyle, I get to chose between Harmony and Clarity, so I know what I am getting. If Hoya can address this issue with the MyStyle questionnaire software, I think they would have a much better product. Perhaps they need to have an alternate to the 15 questions, and *optionally* let the optician decide which type of design to order for the MyStyle (similar to Hoya LifeStyle or Zeiss ID 2).

All of my comments apply to USA versions only.

----------


## Rob Brown

> What about intermediate area? I believe that the Harmony has larger intermediate because it is a softer design (longer transition area from far to near). The Clarity, being a harder design with smaller intermediate, has better distance *and* better near than the Harmony. These days, with so many people using computers and mobile devices, intermediate is important to many patients.
> 
> 
> Once the patient picks at least 5 of the 15 actives, and prioritizes them, my recollection is that the MyStyle can be ordered without any further custom measurements (other than basic Rx), and defaults will be used when not entered. I know that when the order for my personal MyStyle was entered, no custom measurements were taken and the system determined the defaults (there may have been one exception to this, I don't recall). So it is not mandatory that all the custom measurements be taken for MyStyle. That doesn't mean the lenses (MyStyle and LifteStyle) are identical, but in the Hoya online education class I took on LifeStyle lens, Hoya said the LifeStyle lens is basically the same as the MyStyle, but the LifeStyle uses MyStyle averages for the other customizations, and which are pre-finished into the front of LifeStyle (so the only the back of LifeStyle needs to be FF). As you mentioned, MyStyle is FF on front or back for each patient.
> 
> The problem I had with the MyStyle is that after doing the patient questionnaire on the Hoya order website, the Hoya order summary said I would be getting a hard design with fast transition from far to near (small intermediate), which is exactly what I didn't want. So I cancelled the order and got LifeStyle Harmony instead, which is an excellent lens IMO. Others in this forum have commented on the ambiguity of the questionnaire and also questioned its accuracy. At least with LifeStyle, I get to chose between Harmony and Clarity, so I know what I am getting. If Hoya can address this issue with the MyStyle questionnaire software, I think they would have a much better product. Perhaps they need to have an alternate to the 15 questions, and *optionally* let the optician decide which type of design to order for the MyStyle (similar to Hoya LifeStyle or Zeiss ID 2).
> 
> All of my comments apply to USA versions only.


The transition area as you refer to is corridor length?  If so, there are two versions (regular long and short) on both Clarity and Harmony; it's not the corridor length that differentiates the Clarity & Harmony designs, it's in the distance and reading areas.  As for intermediate area, I can only assume that the Harmony would provide a slightly wider one vs. Clarity.

As far as the MyStyle questionnaire goes for Canadian customers, there are no software or design issues up here that I am aware of and we sell a lot of this product in all three customization levels with great success.

----------


## m0002a

> The transition area as you refer to is corridor length?  If so, there are two versions (regular long and short) on both Clarity and Harmony; it's not the corridor length that differentiates the Clarity & Harmony designs, it's in the distance and reading areas.  As for intermediate area, I can only assume that the Harmony would provide a slightly wider one vs. Clarity.


Yes, the Harmony has a wider and longer intermediate. That is why the distance and reading are not quite as good as Clarity. The basic nature of PAL lenses is that there are tradeoffs in the design.

With regard to corridor length, I think there may confusion as to what you specify on input to the computer to finish the lens, and what actually comes out of the finishing process, which usually takes into account other factors, including B height of frame, and design (Harmony vs. Clarity).

----------


## Rob Brown

> Yes, the Harmony has a wider and longer intermediate. That is why the distance and reading are not quite as good as Clarity. The basic nature of PAL lenses is that there are tradeoffs in the design.
> 
> With regard to corridor length, I think there may confusion as to what you specify on input to the computer to finish the lens, and what actually comes out of the finishing process, which usually takes into account other factors, including B height of frame, and design (Harmony vs. Clarity).


The Harmony has a more advanced reading area than Clarity, you have them reversed.

All FF software regardless of manufacturer takes all pertinent information and incorporates it into the design for best optimization and results, which would include those variables you have listed.  However, I'm positive corridor length is not affected since the front mold design on these two specific products is already set prior to back surface processing.

----------


## m0002a

> However, I'm positive corridor length is not affected since the front mold design on these two specific products is already set prior to back surface processing.


That sounds correct, but I don't believe the corridor for Harmony and Clarity are the same. I think Harmony is longer. In other words, the short corridor Harmony is longer than the short corridor Clarity, etc. Note that I am not talking about minimum fitting height, but the actual corridor length of the finished lenses.

----------


## merrymaker

Thanks for the back-and-forth conversation re: the Hoya designs.  As previously mentioned, my office is/was a big Hoya account and my own (former) rep had once said the differences between Harmony/Clarity were ever so small that it's nice to have a bit more technical info on the design differences.  Interestingly enough, my OD has seen more "problem-focus" visits with the new ID2 designs than he remembers seeing with the original ID style. He admits that maybe that design is sticking to memory more than others.

----------


## obiwan

I think the corridor lengths for both types are the same. In Australia for both Clarity and Harmony we specify if we want the 11 or the 14 mm corridor.

----------


## m0002a

> I think the corridor lengths for both types are the same. In Australia for both Clarity and Harmony we specify if we want the 11 or the 14 mm corridor.


I am not doubting you on that, but since the Clarity is hard design (fast transition between far and near with little intermediate), and the Harmony is a soft design (long transition between far and near, with a larger intermediate), that sounds counterintuitive to me that they actually could have the same exact corridor length. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I think Hoya treats opticians like idiots (especially the way the MyStyle is ordered, but also with LifeStyle), and probably doesn't want to confuse them with details.

----------


## Fred Dagg

> \
> 
> How about use a mark-up formula (the same you use for all progressives) then apply it to the wholesale cost of each lens that you mentioned above?
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


The trouble with that, IMO, is that it does not necessarily give sensible upgrade costs from one level of technology to another, and means opportunities for better margins on some products can be missed. I run a spreadsheet with a standard mark up formula to give me an idea of where a price should land, but I'll also tweak that a bit so it works with other products. If you're getting better pricing on Hoya product, there's no reason to charge less for an iD Lifestyle than a Physio, for instance. 

I also think one thing independents can learn from the optical chains is clear and easy upgrade pricing from one level of tech to another. I guess it's debatable what that cost should be, and it will be different from practice to practice. But if it's nice and simple, ie it's $100 to go from a Summit Trueform to an iD, it's a pretty easy sell, especially if that upgrade cost is consistent across materials (refractive index and Trans). It just makes things simpler. You won't get that from a straight formula mark up.  Just my 2c, which won't suit everyone.

----------


## Rob Brown

> That sounds correct, but I don't believe the corridor for Harmony and Clarity are the same. I think Harmony is longer. In other words, the short corridor Harmony is longer than the short corridor Clarity, etc. Note that I am not talking about minimum fitting height, but the actual corridor length of the finished lenses.


That I can't confirm.  Companies only release a certain amount of technical data; the micro level detail I'm sure is proprietary.

----------


## Rob Brown

> I am not doubting you on that, but since the Clarity is hard design (fast transition between far and near with little intermediate), and the Harmony is a soft design (long transition between far and near, with a larger intermediate), that sounds counterintuitive to me that they actually could have the same exact corridor length. But I could be wrong.
> 
> Personally, I think Hoya treats opticians like idiots (especially the way the MyStyle is ordered, but also with LifeStyle), and probably doesn't want to confuse them with details.


I don't agree with your last comment and is unfounded - in fact since I carry most major brands from all manufacturers at my lab from all manufacturers I have had training on all of them; Hoya has always provided the best detailed approach on understanding the product, technical data and how to promote and sell it properly.  

MyStyle is more complex and high end vs. other brands for sure and requires a detailed tutorial, no different than if you purchased a Bentley over a Pacer, you would require training on how to understand its systems to provide maximum value.

----------


## m0002a

> I don't agree with your last comment and is unfounded - in fact since I carry most major brands from all manufacturers at my lab from all manufacturers I have had training on all of them; Hoya has always provided the best detailed approach on understanding the product, technical data and how to promote and sell it properly.  
> 
> MyStyle is more complex and high end vs. other brands for sure and requires a detailed tutorial, no different than if you purchased a Bentley over a Pacer, you would require training on how to understand its systems to provide maximum value.


As I have explained in detail in other posts (and at least two other members have also agreed with me), the MyStyle questionnaire that the patient fills out to determine what kind of lens design they will get (hard vs soft, etc) may produce the exact opposite results of what is desired. I have documented in other posts what happened to me when I knew that I wanted a soft design with large intermediate, and I selected computer use as the highest ranked activity. But the MyStyle order summary said it selected a hard design with small intermediate (but good distance vision) for me, which caused me to cancel the order and get the LifeStyle instead (where at least I had some direct control over what I was getting (Harmony vs Clarity).

My comments about treating opticians like idiots is that the Hoya MyStyle ordering system does not allow the optician to question the patient and make the decision as to which lens design to get (hard vs soft), since Hoya bypasses the optician and go straight to the patient questionnaire, which unfortunately is based on flawed software. In addition to trying to eliminate the optician from choosing the design (hard vs soft, etc), they have an iPad application that, using the built in iPad camera, takes all the measurements (PD, panto, vertex, etc) automatically, again eliminating the skill of an optician. I personally don't have a problem if they could actually eliminate the skill of the optician, if it was done correctly, but in my experience (and the experience of some others on this forum) the software is seriously flawed (at least the questionnaire part).

As I have said before, I think the Hoya LifeStyle and MyStyle and very good lenses (I am very pleased with my LifeStyle Harmony), I just have a big problem with the ordering system.

----------


## Rob Brown

> As I have explained in detail in other posts (and at least two other members have also agreed with me), the MyStyle questionnaire that the patient fills out to determine what kind of lens design they will get (hard vs soft, etc) may produce the exact opposite results of what is desired. I have documented in other posts what happened to me when I knew that I wanted a soft design with large intermediate, and I selected computer use as the highest ranked activity. But the MyStyle order summary said it selected a hard design with small intermediate (but good distance vision) for me, which caused me to cancel the order and get the LifeStyle instead (where at least I had some direct control over what I was getting (Harmony vs Clarity).
> 
> My comments about treating opticians like idiots is that the Hoya MyStyle ordering system does not allow the optician to question the patient and make the decision as to which lens design to get (hard vs soft), since Hoya bypasses the optician and go straight to the patient questionnaire, which unfortunately is based on flawed software. In addition to trying to eliminate the optician from choosing the design (hard vs soft, etc), they have an iPad application that, using the built in iPad camera, takes all the measurements (PD, panto, vertex, etc) automatically, again eliminating the skill of an optician. I personally don't have a problem if they could actually eliminate the skill of the optician, if it was done correctly, but in my experience (and the experience of some others on this forum) the software is seriously flawed (at least the questionnaire part).
> 
> As I have said before, I think the Hoya LifeStyle and MyStyle and very good lenses (I am very pleased with my LifeStyle Harmony), I just have a big problem with the ordering system.


That's unfortunate...the ordering system works flawless for us in Canada.  I would suggest contacting your regional sales manager as they should have more insight on how your system works.

----------


## sharpstick777

I think its both dangerous and limiting to offer lenses from only one brand.  Most manufactures design based on their own but one set of testing parameters (avg axial length, pupil size, and rx power) which can vary regionally and result in lenses often with very similar aspheric designs and features.  Most lenses are variations of existing designs that the manufacturer already has, with many features that carry over.

Imagine playing golf.  You have the best 7 Iron in the world, titanium and moon rock, it costs a fortune.  Now imagine adding club to your bag, it adds a micro diamond hitting surface in addition to the titanium and moon rock, but its really still a 5 iron.   I could still blow you away on course with a crappy driver and putter, simply because you need a full set of clubs in your bag.

There is no way with one brand you can cover every patient lifestyle need, shape, emphasis, design parameter or RX.

----------


## sharpstick777

> .... however the MyStyle is the only lens currently on the globe that is a 100% true double sided free form design.  Hoya literally surfaces the front side, then surfaces the backside creating incredible results on both the front and back - no other manufacturer is doing this (although they claim to be)..


What is the technical advantage of a dual surface beside marketing?  With current blocking technology there currently is no way to optically align the two surfaces perfectly, someone would have to invent some type of blocking on the edge, which would be incredibly difficult and expensive.  Right now the lenses have to be deblocked, and reblocked on the other side by hand.  Also generator geometry is only designed for back side surfacing.

Additionally the front surface size area and compensations would have to specifically calculated based on a thousand different factors, and any cyl would really mess up the optical alignment.   You would simply end up with some form of optical pudding on the front that would look like Lucille Ball making candy. Even the slightest misalignment would have severe optical consequences.

As well, Darryl Meister had proven mathematically that you can address only one higher order aberration in a spectacle lens without causing optical consequences or an increase in another abberation.  Basically you can only solve one problem without increasing another.

Also, Hoya claimed the original iD was also dual surfaced.  In mapping my iD Lifestyle and iD  were both fairly messy lenses esp in the distance zone, but I have not mapped or worn the new Mystyle (just no time).  But in the iD series my vision was actually better through the simpler version.

I would have serious doubts about any dual surface design being better, until they can provide some math, solve the blocking issues, and explain how one surface will compensate for cyl on the other.  Remember that Edward Tillyer in the 1930's proved that Cyl was optically vastly better on the back, its not hard to expand his work to conclude that the rest of the RX will benefit the same.  Until someone can prove his math wrong that is just my opinion.

----------


## m0002a

> That's unfortunate...the ordering system works flawless for us in Canada.


How do you know sitting in the lab what is happening on the dispensing side?

----------


## ThatOneGuy

Hoya, to my understanding, is not designing anything custom on the MyStyle product.  They have several preset designs with which they are targeting and match to the patient rx (more like GT2 3D/short, than Individual 2).  MyStyle selects the "correct" lens design based on the subjective data provided, then optimizes that design for the rx.

In terms of price, the additional costs of MyStyle is warranted due to the additional time, however, it is not additional quality.

----------


## m0002a

> MyStyle selects the "correct" lens design based on the subjective data provided, then optimizes that design for the rx.


Unfortunately, it does not work well. I much prefer the Zeiss method of the patient and optician jointly choosing the correct design (such as ID 2, ID 2i, or ID 2n). Sort of the same way LifeStyle works, except it only has 2 options (Harmony and Clarity).

----------


## ThatOneGuy

> Unfortunately, it does not work well. I much prefer the Zeiss method of the patient and optician jointly choosing the correct design (such as ID 2, ID 2i, or ID 2n). Sort of the same way LifeStyle works, except it only has 2 options (Harmony and Clarity).


+1

----------


## Rob Brown

> What is the technical advantage of a dual surface beside marketing?  With current blocking technology there currently is no way to optically align the two surfaces perfectly, someone would have to invent some type of blocking on the edge, which would be incredibly difficult and expensive.  Right now the lenses have to be deblocked, and reblocked on the other side by hand.  Also generator geometry is only designed for back side surfacing.
> 
> Additionally the front surface size area and compensations would have to specifically calculated based on a thousand different factors, and any cyl would really mess up the optical alignment.   You would simply end up with some form of optical pudding on the front that would look like Lucille Ball making candy. Even the slightest misalignment would have severe optical consequences.
> 
> As well, Darryl Meister had proven mathematically that you can address only one higher order aberration in a spectacle lens without causing optical consequences or an increase in another abberation.  Basically you can only solve one problem without increasing another.
> 
> Also, Hoya claimed the original iD was also dual surfaced.  In mapping my iD Lifestyle and iD  were both fairly messy lenses esp in the distance zone, but I have not mapped or worn the new Mystyle (just no time).  But in the iD series my vision was actually better through the simpler version.
> 
> I would have serious doubts about any dual surface design being better, until they can provide some math, solve the blocking issues, and explain how one surface will compensate for cyl on the other.  Remember that Edward Tillyer in the 1930's proved that Cyl was optically vastly better on the back, its not hard to expand his work to conclude that the rest of the RX will benefit the same.  Until someone can prove his math wrong that is just my opinion.


I am not a designer or optical engineer so I can't provide a rebuttal on such.  However, thousands of patients in a clinical trial chose the double surface technology method over other well known global brands, so something good is definitely being achieved.

----------


## sharpstick777

> However, thousands of patients in a clinical trial chose the double surface technology method over other well known global brands, so something good is definitely being achieved.


So here is a quest I would offer you... I am guessing your rep told you this.  If I am right, ask them for a copy of the trial in print form or what we call a white paper... I bet first they will go "hhh, I will see what I can do".  I bet you a tasty adult beverage they never come up with it, and quietly ignore the issue in perpetuity.  Be very hesitant to believe manufacturer's or rep claims that they don't back up in writing.

True story, when the Physio and 360 launched in 2006 I was told by my Essilor rep:  The regular Physio was backside Free-form, the Physio 360 was dual sided Free-form.  Neither was remotely close to the truth.  The Physio didn't have a true Free-form option until the DRx launched.

----------


## Rob Brown

> So here is a quest I would offer you... I am guessing your rep told you this.  If I am right, ask them for a copy of the trial in print form or what we call a white paper... I bet first they will go "hhh, I will see what I can do".  I bet you a tasty adult beverage they never come up with it, and quietly ignore the issue in perpetuity.  Be very hesitant to believe manufacturer's or rep claims that they don't back up in writing.
> 
> True story, when the Physio and 360 launched in 2006 I was told by my Essilor rep:  The regular Physio was backside Free-form, the Physio 360 was dual sided Free-form.  Neither was remotely close to the truth.  The Physio didn't have a true Free-form option until the DRx launched.


 I'm well aware of what a white paper is.  Having been previously employed by Hoya in an executive management role, I have seen the trial data first hand.  I prefer a blonde amber on tap thanks.

----------


## ThatOneGuy

Ahh...optical ego.  Always a joy.  Bottom line, MyStyle is not a customized lens design.  MyStyle is a selection process (just like an Optician who selects the lens he/she believes will work best for their patient) combined with a surfacing technique.  The surfacing technique sounds glitzy, but is only as good as the math behind it.


When you take a preexisting lens design (target design) and optimize it for a given Rx, you perform better than a non optimized (non freeform) lens of the same design.  When you split the design between two surfaces, the way a MyStyle does, all you have done is to grind the design on the front and back instead of using a mold...in other words, if the necessary best design was available in a mold, the performance would be identical.  However, MyStyle can use a bigger variety of front "molds" because it custom grinds them.

An iD Lifestyle 2 vs a MyStyle is a virtual wash, unless you are dealing with a high power Rx and/or fail to pay attention to what the patient needs, in which case a Mystyle will perform "better."  In my opinion, though, they all leave a bit to be desired compared to an Individual 2

----------


## sharpstick777

> I'm well aware of what a white paper is.  Having been previously employed by Hoya in an executive management role, I have seen the trial data first hand.  I prefer a blonde amber on tap thanks.


My treat...  I am always at VEW.

----------


## Rob Brown

> Ahh...optical ego.  Always a joy.  Bottom line, MyStyle is not a customized lens design.  MyStyle is a selection process (just like an Optician who selects the lens he/she believes will work best for their patient) combined with a surfacing technique.  The surfacing technique sounds glitzy, but is only as good as the math behind it.
> 
> 
> When you take a preexisting lens design (target design) and optimize it for a given Rx, you perform better than a non optimized (non freeform) lens of the same design.  When you split the design between two surfaces, the way a MyStyle does, all you have done is to grind the design on the front and back instead of using a mold...in other words, if the necessary best design was available in a mold, the performance would be identical.  However, MyStyle can use a bigger variety of front "molds" because it custom grinds them.
> 
> An iD Lifestyle 2 vs a MyStyle is a virtual wash, unless you are dealing with a high power Rx and/or fail to pay attention to what the patient needs, in which case a Mystyle will perform "better."  In my opinion, though, they all leave a bit to be desired compared to an Individual 2


It's education not ego.  You're entitled to an opinion as I am, but if you did your research assignment first, you would see the glitz is based on successful numerics, facts and outperforms the Individual on a global scale.

----------


## ThatOneGuy

> It's education not ego.  You're entitled to an opinion as I am, but if you did your research assignment first, you would see the glitz is based on successful numerics, facts and outperforms the Individual on a global scale.


The glitz comment is in regards to the global portfolio of lenses by all manufacturers.  Not a knock against Hoya or any of their products (though I see how in the context of the paragraph I failed to make that clear).  In fact, I enjoyed their (Hoya) marketing emails that said, "we did the math."

I never get too excited about a lens out performing another lens.  Remember New Coke?  Remember Panamic?  They did great in consumer studies and sales respectively.  One was a commercial flop with great consumer feedback, the other a design flop with great sales numbers.

Education is a funny thing.  Perspective/Perception has far more to do with anything than education.  Perception is reality, so if you perceive a product as being high quality and selling well, then that is your reality.

Tying back in to the original post, when positioning a product (setting the price and justifying that cost), make sure that you are doing it based on what the product is, not what you think it does.  MyStyle can certainly carry a more premium price because of the additional work it requires, and the advanced manufacturing techniques that it utilizes.  Just use caution in presenting it to the patient as providing clearer/better optics.

----------


## Rob Brown

> How do you know sitting in the lab what is happening on the dispensing side?


I split my time equally between manufacturing and my ophthalmic consulting business.

----------


## Rob Brown

> The glitz comment is in regards to the global portfolio of lenses by all manufacturers.  Not a knock against Hoya or any of their products (though I see how in the context of the paragraph I failed to make that clear).  In fact, I enjoyed their (Hoya) marketing emails that said, "we did the math."
> 
> I never get too excited about a lens out performing another lens.  Remember New Coke?  Remember Panamic?  They did great in consumer studies and sales respectively.  One was a commercial flop with great consumer feedback, the other a design flop with great sales numbers.
> 
> Education is a funny thing.  Perspective/Perception has far more to do with anything than education.  Perception is reality, so if you perceive a product as being high quality and selling well, then that is your reality.
> 
> Tying back in to the original post, when positioning a product (setting the price and justifying that cost), make sure that you are doing it based on what the product is, not what you think it does.  MyStyle can certainly carry a more premium price because of the additional work it requires, and the advanced manufacturing techniques that it utilizes.  Just use caution in presenting it to the patient as providing clearer/better optics.


Thanks for the clarification  :Smile: 

I do agree that all manufacturer's should base their marketing more on factual technical data rather than self claim marketing jargon. 

When you look at a marketing brochure for an aircraft or automobile, besides the shiny glitzy pictures of beautiful craftsmanship and engineering lies factual technical data and performance charts. 

The aviation and auto industry are strictly regulated which enforces authentic consumer marketing and protects the consumers. 

Our industry is also regulated but rarely enforce anything, but perhaps they should?!

----------


## Jstanfast

> I haven't sold any Mystyles yet.  Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions.  We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers.  Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in?  Thanks!


https://www.mystylelensesusa.com/Login.aspx

Go there
account #
and 10 digit phone number. 

you'll have all the info that you want. just send a dummy patient through.

----------


## m0002a

> I split my time equally between manufacturing and my ophthalmic consulting business.


Unless you are directly interacting with patients, you don't really know what their experience is. It is even hard for opticians to always know, because dissatisfied patients don't always complain, they just don't come back.

----------


## Rob Brown

> Unless you are directly interacting with patients, you don't really know what their experience is. It is even hard for opticians to always know, because dissatisfied patients don't always complain, they just don't come back.


Hence why owners need to stay in touch personally with their patients and not just rely upon hired to help to do all the dispensing and patient follow up.  The dispensary requires special attention and is the real money maker in a practice, much more than the revenue generated from just exams.

----------

