# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Crizal Sapphire....

## WFruit

Anyone else get the letter from Essilor about their new Crizal for the US market?

Summation: 

Available beginning April 27th.

"Enhanced Light Transmission (ELT) System ...As a result, patients will benefit from *50% less reflection* compared to Crizal Avance..." (the bold in this quote is also in bold in the letter)

Comes with super-hydrophobic top coat, anti-static layer, and pad control system for easier edging.

Available on Essilor designs only (PAL's and SV) in poly, 1.60, 1.67, 1.74.

Comes with a cleaning cloth.

A bunch of other technical mumbo-jumbo indicating that it's the greatest Crizal since their last Crizal which was also the greatest Crizal....

If anyone wants or needs, I'll be happy to email a PDF copy of the letter to them.

Oh, and they give the "Max Discount price to ECP = $x" and the "Suggested ECP price to consumers = $x." where x is a silly amount of money to charge for the coating.  Yes, they acually "suggest" what to sell it at.

----------


## For-Life

Before someone flips out and starts going crazy here, I think I have an idea of what it is. 

I believe it is the blue version of the Crizal coating.  We have had it here for years.  Essilor says it allows 99.6% light transmission versus the 99.2% for the tradition green Avance (I do not care if you dispute these numbers, the key thing is it produces less).  I actually prefer the blue to the green, as I find that the hue is less obvious.  I remember when I first started to use it, when the optician grabbed the finish product, he had to look twice because the lenses were so clear that it looked like the frame did not have any lenses in it.

----------


## WFruit

You are probably correct.  There is a note in the letter stating that because the lenses have "a slight blue refective hue" the pad control system color has been changed from blue to grey in color.

As long as it isn't the horrible shade of purple that my 1.74 Crizal Avance pair is, I'm ok.

----------


## Jacqui

It may be the same old thing in a new and improved box. We've been using a lot of ICE from Laramy-K, it's clear.

----------


## lind2020

It's a new product that is going to be available to order on next Tuesday. Essilor labs verify that is is reportedly 50% less reflection, and a better cleaning coating. The cost is slightly higher then Avance w/sg.

I did a survey on what to name it about a month ago and called essilor labs to ask if it really was coming out but they knew nothing back then. As of today, the lab I called had not seen it in any form.

I will almost definitely offer it if it is what it is advertised to be. It is unfortunately not available on VSP orders according to the lab.

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

Maybe it won't craze as much as the other Crizals. I had Crizals craze all over the place one year when we used it.

----------


## kcount

I played with it at VEE. Underwelmed would be my reaction. Same stuff as Alize, just a new color.. *Yawn*  Needless to say I wont be on that bandwagon, especially when they told me Saphire is going to cost more too.

----------


## Now I See

_....quicky hi-jack alert....._




> It may be the same old thing in a new and improved box. We've been using a lot of ICE from Laramy-K, it's clear.


I just used a pr of those, too....very cool! I'm not putting everyone in it yet, but I did like the way it looked...I've got to cut a pair for myself.... between the dogs, and my kids, it'll be a true test of durability! ;)

_...now back to regularly scheduled posting...._

----------


## For-Life

When it was released here, the dollar difference from Green Alize was not materialistic.  To me, it looked better and I prefered to use it because of that.  I always had the option to use the green coating if I wanted to.

----------


## YrahG

I use the SET Advantage, slicker coating from my lab than any of the crizal lenses and it's available on most other manufacturers lenses unlike this new crizal.  Also the shift from green to blue means that the lens allows more of the green spectrum through the lens and less of the blue, the significance to this is the eye is more sensitive to the green spectrum when compared to the blue.  Zeiss has used this technology in their coatings for years.  I am glad that E is finally coming to the playing field with a comparable coating, however I don't see myself paying the exorbitant prices that E loves to charge for inferior technology.

----------


## allanon

The qualities of Sapphire include 50% less reflection than Avance' (this is huge), greater cleanability, and greater durability (no reduction in scratch coat after 20,000 cleanings!).

Category E on VSP (ie they're creating a new category)

----------


## kcount

Still think its a bunch of hype.

----------


## Uilleann

It certainly IS!  That's precisely what EVERY marketing department employed in the world is employed for.  Hype it up!  And in the optical world, EVERYBODY'S doin' it!  Essilor and Crizal are no different than anyone else.  And who knows - with every generation of increased exposure to things like A/R lenses...maybe, just maybe the US will stop lagging the rest of the developed world because we're cheap.  And just *maybe* we'll start to get involved in our own eye care a bit more, and take some personal ownership of our eyes health and comfort.

Regardless of whether or not a patient asks for a Crizal lens by name - there's hope that they'll at least begin to remember A/R lenses of _SOME_ form on their next order.  And, if we're doing our jobs well, and educating each patient about the benefits to vision, durability and cosmetic appeal, they'll not only just get any A/R lens, but the BEST that each of our respective offices can offer!

Thanks Essilor for keeping A/R lenses out there for patients to see!  When I checked last, there weren't too many other companies doing the same - certainly not at the same scale as Essilor at any rate.  Would love to see some of the "little guys" get out there with some massive public awareness ads.  Might just be enough to pull this little slice of heaven we call home out of the optical dark ages.  I mean, really - we're getting our A/R butts stomped on by who?  The Germans?  The French?!?!  hehehe

_(all tongue in cheek guys - keep your panties on!)_ ;)

----------


## WFruit

> Regardless of whether or not a patient asks for a Crizal lens by name - there's hope that they'll at least begin to remember A/R lenses of _SOME_ form on their next order. And, if we're doing our jobs well, and educating each patient about the benefits to vision, durability and cosmetic appeal, they'll not only just get any A/R lens, but the BEST that each of our respective offices can offer! (Just not Essilor's)
> 
> _(all tongue in cheek guys - keep your panties on!)_ ;)


Sure, just as soon as the "little guys" get Essilor's marketing budget, they'll be right out there with them :p

And as far as A/R butt stomping, you forgot Japan.

----------


## Uilleann

I don't care who has the bigger budget - they ALL should be out there pushing their latest and greatest!  :)  Essilor does it, and so should every other lens mfr. IMHO.  And yes, I thought Japan was a given, but I was feeling a bit butt-sore after just thinking about Europe alone!  ;)  LOL  We in the good ol US of A should be doing a LOT better with things like A/R.

----------


## kcount

Am I the only one with a 99% AR office?

----------


## For-Life

> Am I the only one with a 99% AR office?


Just did some consulting work for my old store and it is at 82%.  All high quality AR too

----------


## kcount

oops, Just ran the numbers. Of the last 100 jobs 2 were no ARC.. so I'm really at 98%.  I'm slackin'

----------


## Judy Canty

Actually, I think that here in the US, Opticians do a great job of talking patients OUT of a/r.

----------


## canaanlilli

my office averages 95-98 % a/r. how do you talk someone out of a/r? Especially with the improvements in cleanability and durability.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *oops, Just ran the numbers. Of the last 100 jobs 2 were no ARC.. so I'm really at 98%. I'm slackin'*


Out of personal interest, I just love you 100% AR guy's and girls. The more of these things you can crank out,. the more AR stripper I can produce and even sell.

It is also profitable for you...........you can make the profit twice by selling them and then a coupke of years down the road.......stripping them.

----------


## For-Life

> Out of personal interest, I just love you 100% AR guy's and girls. The more of these things you can crank out,. the more AR stripper I can produce and even sell.
> 
> It is also profitable for you...........you can make the profit twice by selling them and then a coupke of years down the road.......stripping them.


You would be very interested to know that we rarely, if ever get our coatings crazed (maybe twice a year at the most).  The only coatings I see crazed are the competitors.  And we all know which coatings they are using.  Especially Hakim.

You really should look into this

----------


## keagles2

*marketing marketing , what else is there to say ! Another way to get richer , have you seen there stock reports lately ? Check it out.*

----------


## For-Life

I wonder what you guys said when Teflon went blue and Zeiss released a blue coating...

----------


## lind2020

First of all, Essilors avance/alize is replaceable at no charge for 2 years defective or otherwise. I haven't ever had one "stripped" nor will I ever.

Second, _almost_ without exception (not Canada) anti-reflective coatings are covered by national healthcare in the countries mentioned in this thread. So their percentages are nice to point to as a goal, but consider that it's free to their patients before slamming the American Optician please.

If you're not a big essilor fan then don't sell it, their pricing certainly isn't out of line for the quality and warranty they we get. Other manufacturers offer similiar coating quality, and they're plentiful. 

It doesn't take a genius to realize that if Essilor was pushing all junk on it's customers they wouldn't be in the position they're in, regardless of what this forums lynch mob consistently says. Although i'm not a big Essilor fan personally, I have had great success with some of their products and will continue to. The right tool for the right job..

----------


## For-Life

> First of all, Essilors avance/alize is replaceable at no charge for 2 years defective or otherwise. I haven't ever had one "stripped" nor will I ever.
> 
> Second, almost without exception anti-reflective coatings are covered by national healthcare in the countries mentioned in this thread. So their percentages are nice to point toas a goal, but consider that it's free to their patients before slamming the American Optician please.
> 
> If you're not a big essilor fan then don't sell it, their pricing certainly isn't out of line for the quality and warranty they we get. Other manufacturers offer similiar coating quality, and they're plentiful. 
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to realize that if Essilor was pushing all junk on it's customers they wouldn't be in the position they're in, regardless of what this forums lynch mob consistently says. Although i'm not a big Essilor fan personally, I have had great success with some of their products and will continue to. The right tool in the for the right job..


Are you sure about other countries covering AR with their health care?

Canada certainly does not

----------


## drk

> The qualities of Sapphire include 50% less reflection than Avance' (this is huge)


Think, please, Dr.

If there's only 3% reflectance, moving it down to 1.5% is a 50% reduction.

Market it this way: "1.5% less reflectance!" and it doesn't sound so compelling.

----------


## drk

> Am I the only one with a 99% AR office?


woof.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *First of all, Essilors avance/alize is replaceable at no charge for 2 years defective or otherwise. I haven't ever had one "stripped" nor will I ever.*


 
So 2 years down the road your customer comes back and wants to get a new pair of fancy glasses with all the bells and whistles.

He asks you  "could we not tint the old pair into sunglasses as they are still good enough for the beach? " So as you saId above quote, your answer will be: *I haven't ever had one "stripped" nor will I ever. So he will go to your competitor who will do it with pleasure and satisfy the customers wish.*

----------


## For-Life

> So 2 years down the road your customer comes back and wants to get a new pair of fancy glasses with all the bells and whistles.
> 
> He asks you "could we not tint the old pair into sunglasses as they are still good enough for the beach? " So as you saId above quote, your answer will be: *I haven't ever had one "stripped" nor will I ever. So he will go to your competitor who will do it with pleasure and satisfy the customers wish.*


Wouldn't you want the right RX in the new lenses?

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

> Think, please, Dr.
> 
> If there's only 3% reflectance, moving it down to 1.5% is a 50% reduction.
> 
> Market it this way: "1.5% less reflectance!" and it doesn't sound so compelling.



Actually, I think they've gone from 99.1% to 99.5%  - a MASSIVE increase!
And most of us here are not saying Essilor's products are bad, just their mission to put all independents out of business is and their over-hyped marketing, and others' products are just as good but less expensive. If you think otherwise, well then their marketing is working!

----------


## Uilleann

In over 10 years now, I can count on two fingers the A/R strip requests we've ever had.  It just doesn't make sense for most patients.  Particularly on a 2 year old pair of lenses.  There are a few pt's perhaps, but not the vast vast majority that we see.

In looking back at our own numbers, as a practice we're at: 84% (one bad apple sadly), and I'm at 97% for the year to date.  It makes absolutely no sense in my mind to offer lenses without premium A/R.  Its not in any patient's best interest.  Our remakes due to crazing, scratching and any A/R specific related defect or warranty issue are the lowest they've ever been since I've been dispensing.  And many of the lenses dispenses across the past three private practices I've been involved with were Crizal.  They're doing something right.  YMMV of course.

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

P.S.  As far as cost goes, Crizal lenses (Avancé in particular) cost us an average of about $20 less per pair than comparable offerings from Hoya, Zeiss or three of our local labs 'house brands'.  It's not the cheapest in every case granted, but it certainly is far from being the most expensive.

----------


## YrahG

> P.S.  As far as cost goes, Crizal lenses (Avancé in particular) cost us an average of about $20 less per pair than comparable offerings from Hoya, Zeiss or three of our local labs 'house brands'.  It's not the cheapest in every case granted, but it certainly is far from being the most expensive.


I think I stepped in something, because it stinks in this thread.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Wouldn't you want the right RX in the new lenses?*


That is exactly what I said.....................but as the older pair where the reading distance  is now at arms length, they are just perfect as sunglasses, but you can not tint if you don't strip. 
If you are not a too greedy optician, you might even suggest such a solution.

----------


## Uilleann

> I think I stepped in something, because it stinks in this thread.


Heh.  Nice.  Feel free to stop in and take a look at our lab invoices and price quotes. :Cool:

----------


## For-Life

> That is exactly what I said.....................but as the older pair where the reading distance is now at arms length, they are just perfect as sunglasses, but you can not tint if you don't strip. 
> If you are not a too greedy optician, you might even suggest such a solution.


Are you calling us greedy?  Or are you just making a general statement

----------


## WFruit

First, I'm not going near the Canadian posts....way too easy to start stereotyping.

Second, this may be the best post I've read on optiboard about Essilor:




> If you're not a big essilor fan then don't sell it, their pricing certainly isn't out of line for the quality and warranty they we get. Other manufacturers offer similiar coating quality, and they're plentiful. 
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to realize that if Essilor was pushing all junk on it's customers they wouldn't be in the position they're in, regardless of what this forums lynch mob consistently says. Although i'm not a big Essilor fan personally, I have had great success with some of their products and will continue to. The right tool for the right job..


I don't like Essilor, but I do have respect for some of their products.  And I don't think anyone can deny the success of their marketing.

Quality of products can be measured quantifiably.

Example: Improvement form 99.2% light transmission to 99.6% light transmission.  That's a quantified improvement.  Simple fact.

Is it a huge improvement?  Well, it's .4%.  Is that a lot?  Depends on how you look at it.  Seems like a small amount.  But then think about the change 1mm can make in a pair of glasses....sometimes none, sometimes it's that tiny extra amount that makes a pair unwearable.

Now, is that improvement worth whatever extra cost there may be?  That's up to each of us individually.  Some will think that it's worth it, some will not.  

If you don't like Essilor, you have the choice about whether to sell their products or not.

Now, can we all just get along?

----------


## Young30561

> woof.


 No Doc, Here in our practice we dont make lenses without AR Coating, Poly for kids and 1.60 or greater for all scripts... :)

----------

