# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Odd problem that involves Holland

## EyeGurl

Okay, we all know about over seas glasses and the thinnest, craziest lenses.  So here is what happened today. Regular dispense with concerns to a teenage girl, moved to the states recently, va was fine but pulling/HA sensation.  Told to try on in am, come back in a couple days if it keeps feeling odd.  I expected this because of the thickness I figured the poly would be here, she was in poly but very thin so different refraction.  We also do OC heights on every pair of single vision, as I am sensitive to that myself. So I worked through all the normal stuff nothing.  But then I got a complaint from her that made some sense, the floor came up when she looked down.  Hmmm.  Do I just switch her over to trivex, pray for the best and call it a day?  I broke out the lens clock, I had to work up a patient so the lady I work with took all the measurements of her old verses new.  Yeah, her old glasses had a BC of 3.5 OD and 5 OS.  Ours matched. No joke, what the heck?  Is there any possible reason, we can think of none?  Ideas thoughts comments.  Did we solve it and she needs to adjust or what?

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## EyeGurl

RX:  -2.?? -0.?? x 1??
       -2.?? -0.?? x 1??
no major discrepancy between ou, rx changed by 1 click cyl and one sphere, PD within 2 mm split.

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## DragonLensmanWV

Probably used stock lenses for her first pair, maybe even different manufacturers, rather than surfaced to the same base curve.

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## HarryChiling

> the floor came up when she looked down.


Try panto or retro.

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## EyeGurl

not to be rude, but pano or retro will not help with a patient that has adapted to aniso.  And I checked the vertex is within 1 mm of old pair and they both have the same tilt.  Maybe I should clarify, would there be any reason to do two diff BC with this rx?  Any other ideas from people who really understand the physics here?  I am more of a bio person, the math is really hard, I have a good grasp but the finer details are above me.

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## DragonLensmanWV

Well, with both lenses -2.??, there would be no aniso.

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## braheem24

> Any other ideas from people who really understand the physics here?


Someone give Harry a valium QUICK! :D




> Well, with both lenses -2.??, there would be no aniso.


I think she means Aniso BC 



We need FULL 

Old Rx,
New Rx,
Old BC,
New BC,
Old PD,
New PD,
Old OC,
New OC,

...and old and new Frame A and B measurements for starters.

for all we know it's an increase in the cyl.

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## Mr.Goggle

I beleive that if you have mached the BC and the VD.  It won't hurt to mach tilt (just for good measure), I would do as you said and try a different material.  Betcha it works!

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## obxeyeguy

> not to be rude, but pano or retro will not help with a patient that has adapted to aniso.   
> 
> Any other ideas from people who really understand the physics here?


Just reading...

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## kcount

> Yeah, her old glasses had a BC of 3.5 OD and 5 OS. Ours matched. No joke, what the heck? Is there any possible reason, we can think of none? Ideas thoughts comments. Did we solve it and she needs to adjust or what?


Nope you didn't solve it, The discrepency of the BC in both the old lens and the new makes me wonder;
1. Who took the measurment.
2. is the lens warping in the frame?




> RX: -2.?? -0.?? x 1??
> -2.?? -0.?? x 1??
> no major discrepancy between ou, rx changed by 1 click cyl and one sphere, PD within 2 mm split.


Click?  Those are called Diopters.  Not to be rude of course.




> Try panto or retro.


That was my first thought too. Floor coming up is classic Panto/Retro.




> Any other ideas from people who really understand the physics here?


Harry is very familiar with "..the physics here."




> I am more of a bio person, the math is really hard, I have a good grasp but the finer details are above me.


Really?!  Never noticed.:hammer:

You need to post a full RX, PD's, etc. 
Plus the air speed velocity of an inlaiden swallow.

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## EyeGurl

Okay now that I am at work and have the chart-
Old RX
OD -2.50DS
OS -2.00-0.50 x 025

vertex was about 14
PD 30/30
OCH was center of frame
BC 3.5/5 frontside

new rx 

-2.50DS
-2.25-0.50x017
PD 31.0/29
OCH 17
BC 6 ou ( I think if I remember correctly)
vertex at 15

Adjusted new frame tilt to match old when ordered, since we use an outside lab I always do it before had so we don't have probs with the lenses popping out.  New lenses about 1.5 mm thicker on the edge.

New frame 50A 36B UNK D ( I am going to guess 40 somthing)
Old frame about the same size, I do not have the old frame info written down.  

This is just killing me.  I hate having a problem I am not sure if I solved and hate telling the patient to try adapting some more.  If they are having a problem I need to address it but this is above me.

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## EyeGurl

Sorry to be crazy, it is like yeah duh I checked the tilt, it was my first thought as well. Hahaha it is like when you call the tech desk, yes I tried restarting the computer and making sure it was plugged in, can we skip to the advanced stuff.  :Rolleyes:  The lady who took the measurements is licensed, so I trust her. She has more experience then me and is just as baffled. And I am a refractionist (non certified) and that is why I call them clicks :)

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## Johns

> Sorry to be crazy, it is like yeah duh I checked the tilt, it was my first thought as well. Hahaha it is like when you call the tech desk, yes I tried restarting the computer and making sure it was plugged in, can we skip to the advanced stuff.  The lady who took the measurements is licensed, so I trust her. She has more experience then me and is just as baffled. And I am a refractionist (non certified) and that is why I call them clicks :)


 
When the patient is wearing the glasses, which direction are the temples pointing?  If the temples are pointing away from the patient, she may have them on backwards.  Often, when there is a license hanging on the wall, it is difficult to see obvious issues.

I don't know much 'bout physics, but I like Fig Newtons if that's worth anything...

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## Johns

> Sorry to be crazy, it is like yeah duh I checked the tilt,


 





> I am more of a bio person, the math is really hard, I have a good grasp but the finer details are above me.


 
Is today April Fool's Day, or am I missing something?

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## Johns

> Any other ideas from people who really understand the physics here? \


Sorry about that Harry guy, he's pretty clueless when it comes to this stuff.  Fezz and I have been working with him when we can, but he just doesn't seem to get it.
:hammer:

Send Fezz a pm and he'll straighten all this mess out for you, without interference from these other folks.
:cheers:

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## EyeGurl

Who is this Fezz?

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## obxeyeguy

> Who is this Fezz?





> *Fezz * 
> 
> *The Man, The Myth, The Legend*


We defer to the master.

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## shanbaum

> Okay now that I am at work and have the chart-
> Old RX
> OD -2.50DS
> OS -2.00-0.50 x 025
> 
> vertex was about 14
> PD 30/30
> OCH was center of frame
> BC 3.5/5 frontside
> ...


I observe that 6 is an abnormally steep base for that Rx.  4 would have been a better choice.  The original base curves were close to best form.

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## Robert Martellaro

Most frames out of the package will have insuficient panto, and on some heads no panto tilt at all. Increase the panto tilt to the 8° to 12° range. The perspective on the down gaze will be much improved. Fit the lenses as close as possible to the eyes without the lashes hitting the lens or the frame resting on the face.

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## Fezz

Sorry, sorry, sorry!

I should have gotten to this thread much earlier!

I have been busy making meatballs and gravy all day and now most of the night too! This isn't the lumpy flour mix gravy that your momma makes at Thanksgiving, this is a tomato based *sauce* that goes with meatballs and spaghetti! I had to get up very early and be at the docks at 4:37 am to get the ingredients! I have a few friends that work as longshoremen and they help unload and load boats, vans, trucks, backpacks, willow baskets and plastic grocery bags with all kinds of vegetables, meats, fruits and herbs and oils! They always help me out when gravy and meatballs are on the menu! I always reward them with a hearty meal and a robust wine for the help in getting all of the very freshest and prime ingredients.

I spent all day slicing, dicing, swirling, twirling, mixing, flipping, pinching, stirring, drinking, eating, stirring some more, mixing, more drinking, and more stirring! You have to be very vigilante when making meatballs and gravy. Here is the recipe that I use. I always multiply the recipe by 3.14. That leaves plenty of eats for everybody (even fat JJ), plus a little extra to hand out over at _The Home for Wayward and Destetute Opticians._ Those dear souls always appreciate the gesture! Ok, so here is what I do for the recipe:


_Momma Ronsir's Meatballs and Gravy_

1 pound sweet Italian sausage2 pounds meatballs (recipe below)4 or 5 lean pork chops1 pound lean spareribs1 pound piece beef or pork1/2 cup olive oil, Extra Virgin! If you ain't paying at least $118 per fluid ounce-you ain't using good olive oil!1 medium onion, chopped2 garlic cloves, chopped or very thinly slicedPinch of FRESH basil, red pepper flakes, oregano and mint1 (6 ounce) can tomato paste3 pounds FRESH peeled and crushed tomatoes1 (28 ounce) can water-CLEAN water...from the tap!!4 cups Cabernet Sauvignon=Don't cheap out you cheapskates! (1 for the gravy, 3 for the cook)Salt and pepper to taste (sometimes I will add a little sugar to cut the acidity)*Meatballs*1 pound ground meat ( half beef, half pork)3 medium eggs3/4 cup bread crumbs, or enough to hold mixture together1/4 cup chopped fresh parsley1/4 cup freshly grated Parmesan or Romano cheese1 large garlic clove, finely chopped, or very thinly sliced (I use a razor and shave the garlic see thru thin, ala Goodfellas)Salt and pepper to taste



 Directions  
_The Gravy_Fry the meats of your choice in 1/4 cup of the oil in a large heavy saucepan. When they are browned, transfer them to a platter. Add the remaining 1/4 cup of oil to the residual juices in the pan. When the oil is hot, sauté the onion, garlic, and seasonings until transparent. Stir in the tomato paste and blend well. Add the tomatoes and stir until blended with the tomato paste and oil. Stir in an extra pinch of the seasonings. Add water, using the tomatoes. (Keep adding water until the sauce remains the thickness you desire. I use a full can.) Let the sauce come to a full boil and add salt and pepper to taste and an additional pinch of herbs. Return the meat to the pan. Then simmer over medium heat, uncovered, for at least 1 hour or until all of the meat is fully cooked. Stir gently every 15 minutes or so, using a large wooden spoon.Serve the sauce over pasta, reserving some additional sauce for individual servings at the table.NOTE: Pork added to the gravy will make an oily - though delicious - gravy. When you are using a significant amount of pork, skim the excess oils off the top of the sauce. Pork also tends to produce a thin sauce, so go easy when adding additional water, or add an extra can of paste at the beginning of preparations. This will help maintain the body of the sauce._The Meatballs_Combine all the ingredients in a large bowl. Toss gently with your hands until the meat has become thoroughly blended with all the seasonings. The mixture should be fairly moist. To form the meatballs, wet your hands in a small bowl of lukewarm water and then pick up about 1/3 cup meatball mixture. Roll it in the palm of your hands to form a smooth ball about 1-inch in diameter. Drop the meatballs directly into your sauce. Or, if you prefer a crusty meatball, fry in approximately 3 tablespoons of olive oil in a skillet on medium heat for about 5 minutes, turning to brown evenly. Then drop them into gently boiling tomato sauce. Meatballs take 20 minutes to cook well. Remember to scrape the bottom of the skillet and pour any crusty meat particles into the meat sauce.Yield: 15 to 18 medium-size meatballs or 40 to 45 tiny meatballs.6 cups Cabernet Sauvignon (for the parched cook)

Now you must take great care and don't overdo it!
_
Mangi e goda di!!!!!!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
_

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## Fezz

PS. Dear OP,

Please forgive that Neanderthal Harry. He knows not of what he writes! Don't be fooled by his good looks, charm, suave attitude, fancy Man-Strut abilities, techno babble, optical term flinging, fast car driving, website developing prowess, or his ability to rally the troops for the coming REVOLUTION!

He is quite the worldly traveler, 87 year old scotch drinking maniac, and stoogie puffing genius........but his understanding of optics, physics and math only revival that of my two Labrador Retrievers on crack. Don't hold it against him. Brother Johns and I have taken him under our wings and are trying to *mentor* him!! 

Hey, we all had to start somewhere, right!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## Fezz

> I don't know much 'bout physics, but I like Fig Newtons if that's worth anything...



Fig Newtons ARE yummy!!!

I LOVE *Swedish** Fish* too!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## Strab

> I LOVE *Swedish** Fish* too!
> 
> :cheers::cheers::cheers:


ME TOO!!! Eating some right now and it's only 8:35am.:D

As to the issue of 2 different B.C. on the OLD set of lenses...
My lab once ran a SV set of STOCK lenses and had a breakage on one lens. Went to pull another stock but we were out of that power so they had to surface the lens. At final inspection everything was great so out the door and to the pt. it went. The pt. had difficulty at the dispense and insisted something wasn't right. In the end it was the differance in the B.C. from one lens to the other. If the pt. has gotten used to that it will take time to adjust. I agree with Shanbaum that the 4 B.C. OU would be a better fit and easier for the pt. to adapt. Also, agree with adding a little more panto.

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## kcount

> Sorry, sorry, sorry!
> 
> I should have gotten to this thread much earlier!
> 
> *4 cups Cabernet Sauvignon=Don't cheap out you cheapskates! (1 for the gravy, 3 for the cook)*


 
Can I forget everything else and just drink the wine instead?!

:cheers::cheers:

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## drk

I'm not sure if I can contribute, but I always love to hear the sound of my...keyboard.

Just a general concept that helps me: *Spectacle Magnification = Shape factor x Power factor*



For the case in point, she was indeed getting unequal image sizes (albeit miniscule) from the unequal shape factors, yet she was adapted.

In the new Rx, there should be more equal image sizes, which is more correct, and she'll now have to adapt to that.

She's young. Don't sweat it. Give her a week.



For Harry C., please review spectacle magnification formulae:
http://www.opticiansfriend.com/artic...ations.html#SM

(Unless you materially participated in the formation of this website, in which case you can ignore my recommendation. :D)


*"Spectacle Magnification Formula:*
_Magnification (M) = (Shape Factor) * (Power Factor)_
_Shape Factor = 1 / (1 - ((c * D1) / n))_
_Power Factor = 1 / (1 - z Dv)D1 = front surface power (base curve) in diopters_
_c = center thickness in meters_
_n = index of refraction of lens_
_z = vertex distance in meters_




_Dv = back vertex power_
_Flatter base curves decrease magnification__Steeper base curves increase magnification__Thinner lenses decrease magnification__Thicker lenses increase magnification__Higher vertex distances create more magnification__Shorter vertex distances create less magnification__Higher index yield less magnification__Lower index yield more magnification__% Magnification = (M - 1) * 100 Difference in Magnification = % M1 - % M2 Approximate shape factor change = (X * D1) / 15_
_Approximate power factor change = (z * Dv) / 10X = change in center thickness in mm_
_D1 = change in base curve_
_Dv = back vertex power_
_z = change in vertex distance in mm"_

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## braheem24

Pimpin'

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## drk

Pimpin'!

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## Johns

Pimpin'?

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## finefocus

Yeah, who is this Fezz? I think we need and deserve a reassuring answer to this important question. 

Corollary; if he and Harry come together, does that constitute critical mass? Or are they just critically massive?

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## braheem24

Harry schmarry, Just cause he's eastern european it dont make him a Holland specialist.

It's Johns fault he was supposed to be watching him.  :Rolleyes:

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## FVCCHRIS

> When the patient is wearing the glasses, which direction are the temples pointing? If the temples are pointing away from the patient, she may have them on backwards. Often, when there is a license hanging on the wall, it is difficult to see obvious issues.
> 
> I don't know much 'bout physics, but I like Fig Newtons if that's worth anything...


*OH MY GOD! That is the funniest thing in a long time!!!*

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## JasonArdanaz

Holland is a little town in Basecurvia, known for its lush valleys, full of figs. In this little town, vision can only be corrected by manufacturing lenses on two different base curves. When the people of Basecurvia move to other parts of the land, they can never find glasses which feel good, because what I have shared with you is a well kept secret. My advice is to send this patient back to their homeland, where they can farm figs and find glasses that fit them just right.

p.s. My bet is that the patient has adapted to the odd base curves. This probably happened in production, possibly due to different stock lens manufacturers being used for each, but more likely because the edger who originally cut the job cut it too big and jammed it into the frame. It was probably too long in the A measurement which caused the outsides to crush inwards over time, warping the original base curve. The other lens, being cut on size, maintained its original base curve.

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## cocoisland58

I love it when Optiboard becomes Bizarro Optiboard.  :cheers:

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## Johns

> Holland is a little town in Basecurvia, known for its lush valleys, full of figs. In this little town, vision can only be corrected by manufacturing lenses on two different base curves. When the people of Basecurvia move to other parts of the land, they can never find glasses which feel good, because what I have shared with you is a well kept secret. My advice is to send this patient back to their homeland, where they can *farm figs and find glasses that fit them just right.*


See!!  I knew there was a connection. Newton, would be proud!!!:cheers:

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## jherman

> Sorry, sorry, sorry!
> 
> I should have gotten to this thread much earlier!
> 
> I have been busy making meatballs and gravy all day and now most of the night too! This isn't the lumpy flour mix gravy that your momma makes at Thanksgiving, this is a tomato based *sauce* that goes with meatballs and spaghetti! I had to get up very early and be at the docks at 4:37 am to get the ingredients! I have a few friends that work as longshoremen and they help unload and load boats, vans, trucks, backpacks, willow baskets and plastic grocery bags with all kinds of vegetables, meats, fruits and herbs and oils! They always help me out when gravy and meatballs are on the menu! I always reward them with a hearty meal and a robust wine for the help in getting all of the very freshest and prime ingredients.
> 
> I spent all day slicing, dicing, swirling, twirling, mixing, flipping, pinching, stirring, drinking, eating, stirring some more, mixing, more drinking, and more stirring! You have to be very vigilante when making meatballs and gravy. Here is the recipe that I use. I always multiply the recipe by 3.14. That leaves plenty of eats for everybody (even fat JJ), plus a little extra to hand out over at _The Home for Wayward and Destetute Opticians._ Those dear souls always appreciate the gesture! Ok, so here is what I do for the recipe:
> 
> 
> ...


needed a gray "how to" down here.

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## Mactire

What have we Dutch men ever done wrong?

We are the most advanced opticians in the world!
Where you still use those ancient phoropters and trial frames we use medical tricorders!

But seriously, I missed the part where the Dutch are involved.

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## Johns

> But seriously, I missed the part where the Dutch are involved.


I think they meant to say it "was all Greek" to them!:D

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## FVCCHRIS

I wonder if FineFocus ever got the answer he was looking for? Or has he just decided to focus?:shiner:

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## DragonLensmanWV

> What have we Dutch men ever done wrong?
> 
> We are the most advanced opticians in the world!
> Where you still use those ancient phoropters and trial frames we use medical tricorders!
> 
> But seriously, I missed the part where the Dutch are involved.



I think it was because the patient just moved here from there and their glasses were of Dutch origin. Seems a bit weak of a connection.

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## finefocus

> I wonder if FineFocus ever got the answer he was looking for? Or has he just decided to focus?:shiner:


No, I never found out about this Fezz thing; the far-away photos of hairy monsters don't convince me (not even the one in Walmart), and the beer-belly tracks they found in the mud could have been faked by anybody. Is this Harry his thrall or his confederate? Are they most dangerous together or separately? Is this all a plot by Baker to take over our brains and make us like the Birthers? How can a simple country Optician know what to think?

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## EyeGurl

*"Spectacle Magnification Formula:*
_Magnification (M) = (Shape Factor) * (Power Factor)_
_Shape Factor = 1 / (1 - ((c * D1) / n))_
_Power Factor = 1 / (1 - z Dv)D1 = front surface power (base curve) in diopters_
_c = center thickness in meters_
_n = index of refraction of lens_
_z = vertex distance in meters

Ahh Ahh Ahhh! magnification
&
and snells law. The two things that gave me nightmares and did not even show up on one of my tests!  EEEKKKK
_

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## EyeGurl

Yeah I need to call her and see how she is doing, it has been a week.  I really don't wanna have to remake them with her old measurements.

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