# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Essilor Acquires Coastal Contacts

## HindSight2020

What was eventually expected to happen has now transpired.

http://www.essilor.com/en/Press/News/Pages/AcquisitionofCoastalcom.aspx?ReturnUrl=http://www.essilor.com/en/Press/News/Pages/Home.aspx

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## optimensch

that was fast. we were just talking about this recently and boom.
essilor has a big footprint at the montreal school of optometry historically. i am looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
i am going to stop all new orders at E as of today, i am curious how long until the sales rep comes calling to see what's up.

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## ex-optician

:Eek:  Well the prophecy has happened Essilor has bought Clearly Contacts for $445 million. Obviously they believe any reprecussions or risks to other client bases are minmal and this is our new future. It might be better to set up your own web site and ignore the regulations if you want to compete and survive unless you specialize.

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## Stan Tabor

At least maybe Essilor will end the practice of giving glasses away.  

This is a major gamble.  

Earlier acquisitions by E were about expanding by buying up labs, equipment companies, lens companies etc.  None of these competed directly with ODs/ECPs. Then came Frames Direct and Eyebuy direct which flew under most ECPs radar screen.  The Eyemed exclusivity deal caught people's eyes as it was accompanied by onerous revisions to how the plan worked.  Now this. Could this be the beginning of a backlash or will the vast majority of ECPs continue to enjoy the Kool Aid?

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## drk

I'm disgusted at how low they can go.  Really disgusted.  

What if they cleaned up Coastal's MO?  Required Rxs?  Raised prices?  Then would they be good guys?

Heck no!

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## Judy Canty

Sadly, Stan, I think the koolaid still tastes pretty good to most.

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## edKENdance

My boss is pisssssssssssed.  This is gonna be a busy day for Essilor Lab reps.

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## Fezz

> My boss is pisssssssssssed.  This is gonna be a busy day for Essilor Lab reps.



Why?

If the boss has used and supported Essilor, they have only themselves to blame!

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## edKENdance

> Why?
> 
> If the boss has used and supported Essilor, they have only themselves to blame!


Only local lab we can use.  Very nice and talented staff.  We have a contract with an independent lab out east but it's not feasible to use them for the lions share of work we do.  Something is gonna change though.

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## coupe

When ( I know it is a dream) will the gouverment and our professional orders see the light.

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## Stan Tabor

Commenting on the acquisition, Hubert Sagnières, Essilor’s Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, said: 
“The Internet has an important role to play in helping us to fulfill our corporate mission of enabling people 
to enjoy a better life through better sight. The first step towards good visual health is a comprehensive 
eye examination. But in our industry, as in many others, the purchasing process is becoming more 
diversified. The Internet, if used properly, can help to drive market growth by educating consumers and 
making it more convenient for them to enjoy good visual health. With Coastal.com, Essilor is acquiring a 
recognized online vision care platform. Our commitment is to contribute to shape this distribution channel 
for the benefit of the entire industry as well as consumers.”

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## DickR

If anyone believes that....you will also want to believe essilor isnt using names and addresses from their crizal rebate program to advertise their online company!!

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## drk

> Our commitment is to contribute to shape this distribution channel 
> for the benefit of the entire industry as well as consumers.”


We'll see about that, Hubert.

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## igirl

> *Only local lab we can use*.  Very nice and talented staff.  We have a contract with an independent lab out east but it's not feasible to use them for the lions share of work we do.  Something is gonna change though.


Sending PM

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## Stan Tabor

This is sad.  There is another thread lighting up about Eyemed taking over schedules and another about eyemed charge backs. So here is what is happening.  Independents are taking on more eyemed work at enormous discounts which add to the profits of Lux (which owns eyemed and glasses.com and target.com) at the expense of the ECP.  Your eyemed lab work must go to Essilor which owns coastal, frames direct and eyebuy direct.   Sounds like a real conundrum.  Build a practice around supporting an entity making moves to put your dispensary out of business.

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## Uncle Fester

> This is sad.  There is another thread lighting up about Eyemed taking over schedules and another about eyemed charge backs. So here is what is happening.  Independents are taking on more eyemed work at enormous discounts which add to the profits of Lux (which owns eyemed and glasses.com and target.com) at the expense of the ECP.  Your eyemed lab work must go to Essilor which owns coastal, frames direct and eyebuy direct.   Sounds like a real conundrum.  Build a practice around supporting an entity making moves to put your dispensary out of business.


Just following the models of CVS and Walgreen's when they put your local pharmacist owned drugstore out of business.

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## mshimp

Run and take cover. Or is the best defense....Offense.........Any ideas on what to do to combat these atrocities....I'm all ears.... any change to your current business model going to take place or is it status quo? Who moved my cheese?

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## Uncle Fester

> Run and take cover. Or is the best defense....Offense.........Any ideas on what to do to combat these atrocities....I'm all ears.... any change to your current business model going to take place or is it status quo? Who moved my cheese?


I'd suggest we advocate for a single payer health care system.

What happens when you are free from genuflecting to the insurance companies for the pool of patients they graciously allow us to access as long as we give them an ever increasing piece of the pie?

How many of you business owners would like to wash your hands of providing health care for employees?

(Cue John Lennon) Imagine ONE set of rules/forms for the industry!!! And maybe (I know this is a stretch) holding your congressman accountable to a vote that hurts your small business.

I dare say the Canadians are better positioned to fight what's happening to them now as opposed to what's been happening to the US for 20+ years. 

(Now to seek cover!!!)

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## LENNY

What a price! Double their yearly Gross!!!!!

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## MakeOptics

I have been holding onto what I call a "baby nuke".  I have some nasty evidence of executives saying some really damning ****.

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## mshimp

> i have been holding onto what i call a "baby nuke".  I have some nasty evidence of executives saying some really damning ****.


nuke it baby!

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## Chris Ryser

So now you get it all, the most active on-line optical going to Essilor. The for years most admired optical supplier owns now some of worlds largest retails market together with the worlds largest manufacturing markets in the optical business, counting all the aquisitions together.

=================================
Essilor Expands in Online Distribution 
With Acquisition of Coastal.com 

 Offer to acquire Coastal.com, a leading online vision care retailer 
 Driving better growth and information for the industry 

Charenton-le-Pont, France (February 27, 2014) – Essilor International today announced that it has 
entered into a binding agreement to acquire all of the outstanding common stock of Coastal Contacts (Coastal.com), one of the world’s leading online vision care retailers. 

Based in Vancouver, British Columbia (Canada), Coastal.com is listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange and on NASDAQ and reported revenue of CAD 218 million for the fiscal year ended October 31, 2013. 


Founded in 2000, the company designs and distributes one of the widest online selections of optical 
equipment, including contact lenses, prescription and non-prescription eyeglasses, sunglasses and 
various accessories. Products are sold through several local websites covering mainly North America and 
Europe as well as the Asia-Pacific region and Brazil. The company has more than five million customers worldwide. 

Commenting on the acquisition, Hubert Sagnières, Essilor’s Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, said: 
“The Internet has an important role to play in helping us to fulfill our corporate mission of enabling people to enjoy a better life through better sight. The first step towards good visual health is a comprehensive eye examination. But in our industry, as in many others, the purchasing process is becoming more diversified. The Internet, if used properly, can help to drive market growth by educating consumers and making it more convenient for them to enjoy good visual health. With Coastal.com, Essilor is acquiring a recognized online vision care platform. Our commitment is to contribute to shape this distribution channel for the benefit of the entire industry as well as consumers.” 

Roger Hardy, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Coastal.com, said: “The Board of Directors of 
Coastal.com unanimously recommend that shareholders accept Essilor’s offer. As a member of the 
world’s leading vision care group, we will be able to offer our customers even better service. Combining 
Coastal.com’s expertise in online sales with Essilor’s innovation, marketing and logistics capabilities will 
allow us to focus our offer more effectively on the various categories of consumers.” 

Online sales account for roughly 4% of the global vision care market, which is estimated at some USD 100 billion based on retail prices. They are likely to continue growing at a double-digit rate for the News Release 



Page 2 / 2 

Online sales account for roughly 4% of the global vision care market, which is estimated at some USD 100 billion based on retail prices. They are likely to continue growing at a double-digit rate for the foreseeable future. Essilor has been involved in online distribution for several years through its 

subsidiaries FramesDirect and EyeBuyDirect and through MyOnlineOptical, a turnkey e-commerce 
engine that enables American eyecare professionals to offer an online complement to their in-store 
offerings. Essilor intends to leverage online distribution to improve the quality of vision care information, optimize the deployment of its products and of new online technologies, and provide wider access to vision correction solutions for existing eyeglass wearers and for the 2.5 billion potential wearers worldwide. 

Essilor is offering CAD 12.45 per Coastal.com share, which represents a premium of approximately 20% 
to the closing share price of CAD 10.39 per share on February 26, 2014 and approximately 42% to the weighted average price of CAD 8.74 quoted on the Toronto Stock Exchange over the last 60 trading days. The transaction represents a net equity value of approximately CAD 430 million. 

The transaction will be structured as an arrangement under the Canada Business Corporations Act and is subject among others to the approval of the Competition Bureau in Canada and to that

foreseeable future. Essilor has been involved in online distribution for several years through its 
subsidiaries FramesDirect and EyeBuyDirect and through MyOnlineOptical, a turnkey e-commerce 
engine that enables American eyecare professionals to offer an online complement to their in-store 
offerings. Essilor intends to leverage online distribution to improve the quality of vision care information, optimize the deployment of its products and of new online technologies, and provide wider access to vision correction solutions for existing eyeglass wearers and for the 2.5 billion potential wearers worldwide. 

Essilor is offering CAD 12.45 per Coastal.com share, which represents a premium of approximately 20% to the closing share price of CAD 10.39 per share on February 26, 2014 and approximately 42% to the weighted average price of CAD 8.74 quoted on the Toronto Stock Exchange over the last 60 trading days. The transaction represents a net equity value of approximately CAD 430 million. 

The transaction will be structured as an arrangement under the Canada Business Corporations Act and is subject among others to the approval of the Competition Bureau in Canada and to that of Coastal.com’s shareholders. Roger Hardy, founder, Chairman and CEO, along with Coastal.com’s directors and officers, have entered into support and voting agreements pursuant to which they have agreed to vote their shares of Coastal.com, representing 16% of all outstanding shares, in favor of the transaction. The transaction is expected to be completed by the end of April 2014. 


======================================


*Renewed prediction for the future made here on Optiboard in th early 2000's.

The next step will be retail stores in the optical that will service glasses purchased on line from adjustments to repairs..............either financed privately or also by Essilor.

Remaining optical retailers will continue selling their products as before and there will never be an optical revolt.*

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## Chris Ryser

> '
> 
> *When (* *I know it is a dream**) will the gouverment and our professional orders see the light.
> *



Yes coupe, this is a dream. The governments could have done somethings years ago, and so would have professional bodies.

This continent was the easiest playground for the giants to try out their imperialistic theories and turn them into facts.
I have periodically raised CC right here on Optiboard and tried to get serious attention but was laughed off in general always by the same posters. Obviously Essilor has been watching them carefully  and found their approach interesting, so do not expect it to go away.

The grip of the boa constrictor is getting tighter and tighter. Opticians could still survive by selling at cost plus++++ service charges at the choice of xutomers.

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## Chris Ryser

> *i am looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
> *



Don't look forward..........................take some action.

They now own the 2 largest plus one not far behind of the on-liners plus the one in India with over 500 emplyees.
That is the way they are going. 

They also have had a foothold in the School of Optometry in Montreal since 1963.............and have been loved forever.

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## optimensch

> Don't look forward..........................take some action.
> 
> They now own the 2 largest plus one not far behind of the on-liners plus the one in India with over 500 employees.
> That is the way they are going. 
> 
> They also have had a foothold in the School of Optometry in Montreal since 1963.............and have been loved forever.


We'll see if the sheep at the school of optometry continue to be so loving....

I think independent chains, not owned by L or E, are more vulnerable than smaller and  nimble independents with 1 or 2 locations. We can more easily turn on a dime with marketing offers and manage costs.

Here's a prediction for the coming paradigm shift: Independents  will increase exam prices a bit  and INCLUDE a pair of glasses in the price. Extras, like progressives, transitions for additional fees. Glasses/eye exam/service must be bundled - and marketed.

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## optimensch

> The grip of the boa constrictor is getting tighter and tighter. Opticians could still survive by selling at cost plus++++ service charges at the choice of xutomers.


Actually I don't think independents can survive selling at cost + (whatever that really means...). There is no way to make rent, payroll and electricity bills, especially in a mall store, by selling at cost plus spare change. The only way is to bundle - all-included, including EXAM. Get the right mix of frames at the right price and anyone can compete with even the large players. If you don't know how to do this, then just tag along with me a the next trade show. I am off to MIDO tonight. Even E an L CANNOT survive by selling at "cost plus" unless the "plus" is really juicy.

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## coupe

*Chris, I would love to hear your opinion of how the order of opticians and order of optometrist in Quebec will handle this*. It is at par IE: with your son of 20 years old suddenly finding out that his father is the head of the mafia. The deep roots and free supplies to both school programs SHOULD be cancelled by the two orders. Otherwise how can they proceed with their lawsuit, if they are also taking freebies from their accused. This MAY create a situation that will finally unbind the hands of Que ECPs and allow them a fair shake at the can. No possible retoric or lying can help either order get past this one. It will be a loose,loose loose situation for them no matter what. LOOSE the lawsuit action,LOOSE big E support for their schools, LOOSE support of their members if they side with big E. Will E refuse to sell online in Que..... big question. There may be a glimmer of hope for Que ECPs in this deal, but it will be very small.

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## coupe

MAKEOPTICS   Time to spill the beans. Tempting us and holding out critical information, that is critically needed at this time, is akin to helping E get where they want to go. Please, spill what you know and let the chips fall where they may.

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## Aurelie

> MAKEOPTICS   Time to spill the beans. Tempting us and holding out critical information, that is critically needed at this time, is akin to helping E get where they want to go. Please, spill what you know and let the chips fall where they may.


+1

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## drk

Just cut essilor out.  If they think they've put themselves in the position where they're irresistible to use, they're wrong.

Make essilor choose: large chains and their vision care plans, or the independents.  They're raping us and we're lying back trying to enjoy it.

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## DickR

drk.....I coulnt agree with you more.

problem as i see it are way too many independrents are afraid to leave essilor products.

As we all know...Essilor products do not have anything that most other lens companys can provide at a dramatically reduced cost

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## TLG

I don't understand anyone's angst over leaving Essilor product behind. I moved to an office a year ago that was almost exclusive E products. I have changed everyone into my preferred Shamir products and had no one that has complained (I don't tell them I changed brand). In fact, many have commented on the improved acuity in their vision.

Just do it. You won't be sorry.

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## drk

Yeah, but don't change to subsidiary Shamir.  Change to Zeiss.

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## TLG

> Yeah, but don't change to subsidiary Shamir.  Change to Zeiss.


I've had terrible luck with their products....

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## NCspecs

> drk.....I coulnt agree with you more.
> 
> problem as i see it are way too many independrents are afraid to leave essilor products.
> 
> As we all know...Essilor products do not have anything that most other lens companys can provide at a dramatically reduced cost



It's not that they are afraid per se, it's that _they don't know what they don't know._ I can only speak from my experience in North Carolina and in Wisconsin but a lot of independents are using the same "Good, Better, Best" packaging system that the chains are using. They aren't differentiating themselves by having Opticians who understand a great deal of product from several different manufacturers. Hell, they don't even hire Opticians (by NC standards) because there is a loophole despite all of the strigent licensing in this state. 

It's been mentioned that many are motivated by fear- in regards to managed care, the big E, the big Lux, etc. There is a way to be truly independent of all of these but once you get in bed (ie with Eyemed, Vsp, Lux, and Essilor) it's hard for some to crawl out. I think it's easy enough to dump Lux and Essilor- we have at our office- but the insurances are a tough sell even for independent-minded Drs.

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## Aurelie

> Yeah, but don't change to subsidiary Shamir.  Change to Zeiss.


Or better yet, talk to some independent labs about their house digital products.  The manufacturers no longer own the market on great progressive designs and pricing is usually much more attractive.

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## Browman

> I have been holding onto what I call a "baby nuke".  I have some nasty evidence of executives saying some really damning ****.


Unless it's about women or minorities (and then, only particular minorities), I don't foresee any "nasty ****" that was said having any effect on Essilor's stability vis-a-vis online eyewear. Wal-Mart and McDonalds have proven time and again that large enough corporations can literally insult their customers to their faces, and people will keep returning.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Here's a prediction for the coming paradigm shift: Independents  will increase exam prices a bit  and INCLUDE a pair of glasses in the price. Extras, like progressives, transitions for additional fees. Glasses/eye exam/service must be bundled - and marketed.
> *



I believe that with the prices of onliners the consumer is not looking for bundled services as they will look for the best price they can get.

You can up prices for the exam, nobody can challenge that with the exception of your competitors.

However the glasses you sell will have to be at the bare minimum to attract consumers.....................against the onliners, with extras as you decide or are forced to.

The service is what onliners can not give..............from checking the lab work to adjusting and re-adjusting up to lifetime, repairs, and all that comes with it.

My  fancy home computer crashed 2 days ago and got fixed on-line for a service fee of $ 300.00 with a lifetime warranty that covers everything that could make it crash again or any other problem, and is even transferable to a new computer if I ever have to get another one. The optical retail industry will have to find their own attractive solution to keep and get customers.

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## optimensch

"However the glasses you sell will have to be at the bare minimum to attract consumers.....................against the onliners, with extras as you decide or are forced to."

In fact many consumers are not looking for the cheapest glasses. Many want exclusive brands and higher quality. Boutique brands still sell very well in our shops alongside the low priced stuff.
People want to pay the right price for the right product. High end is not going away, and the consumers are getting more educated about what's out there. It is about mixing it up and offering something to the widest audience.

Luxury goods are a hot item right now and that still includes optical.

And I can attest that people want and definitely seek out bundled offers. Independent ECPs are well-positioned to do this and can in fact compete well with online.

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## Chris Ryser

> *If you don't know how to do this, then just tag along with me a the next trade show. I am off to MIDO tonight. Even E an L CANNOT survive by selling at "cost plus" unless the "plus" is really juicy.
> *



I have owned a lab some time ago and was also a distributor for some major frame manufacturers for 20 years.

That would make me familiar with the manufacturing cost of frames from the cheapest  to pure gold or turtle shell materials.

You might not know that the cost of manufacturing frames has been turned back to the year 1962 when they were made in Germany / France and Italy.
Also digital surfacing of lenses has been simplified through computerized machinery, however lenses have become more expensive than ever.

Opticians and Optometrists are now buying from 1-2-3 middlemen who also have to add a profit. 

You want a warranty for anything whatever you sell, and that is not free either. Warranties otherwise called INSURANCE only work if they make good money and profits, so you also pay for any warranty, sometimes as much as the goods are worth.

Lenses are turned out by the millions in factories set up by lens manufacturers in Thailand and are made at a cost, that is a fraction of what they were 10-15 years ago to make.

When you go on some website of manufacturers in the far east you can see the actual prices of these goods at the source and you probably would have the surprice of your life.

On-line optical are out to dominate the market you better realize that big E is investing on the other side of the pond.

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## OIC

Essilor owns 50% of Shamir, so you didn't exactly leave the big E behind.

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## ex-optician

*ESSILOR'S REPLY TO ECP'S*

www.ontario-opticians.com

Hopefully link works or use google.

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## edKENdance

> *ESSILOR'S REPLY TO ECP'S*
> 
> www.ontario-opticians.com
> 
> Hopefully link works or use google.


I don't see Essilor's reply to ECP's but I do see what is probably the ugliest web design I've seen since 1996.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I don't see Essilor's reply to ECP's but I do see what is probably the ugliest web design I've seen since 1996.
> *




Here it is:

Official communication from Essilor to OAC   please see OAC Face Book page for updates

 *Essilor Expands in Online Distribution* *with Acquisition of Coastal.com
*
 Commenting on the acquisition, Hubert Sagnières, Essilors Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, said: _The Internet has an important role to play in helping us to fulfill our corporate mission of enabling people to enjoy a better life through better sight. The first step towards good visual health is a comprehensive eye examination. But in our industry, as in many others, the purchasing process is becoming more diversified. The Internet, if used properly, can help to drive market growth by educating consumers and making it more convenient for them to enjoy good visual health. With Coastal.com, Essilor is acquiring a recognized online vision care platform. Our commitment is to contribute to shape this distribution channel for the benefit of the entire industry as well as consumers._





*1) Essilors mission is to enable people to enjoy a better life through better sight*
 The internet can play an integral part in this mission by widening access to vision for all regardless of geography

*2) Good vision is part of good health*
 It starts with an annual eye exam performed by an eye care professional

*3) The buying process is becoming an multi-channel experience*
 This is true in our industry like in many others
 The internet could become a growth driver for the overall optical market by stimulating education and convenience.

*4) Essilor is buying one of the biggest online optical platforms in order to contribute to shaping the development of the internet channel*
 This will be done along with our traditional customers
 And for the benefit of the industry and of consumers
 Essilor will leverage Coastals online technology to offer ECPs with e-commerce platforms.

*5) Essilor intends to use the online channel to develop:*
 Better access to vision for potential as well as existing wearers
 Innovation for relevant products.

Best Regards,

Marc Tersigni
Président

*Essilor Canada Ltée/Ltd.,*371 rue Deslauriers, Saint-Laurent, QC, H4N 1W2  T.  +1 514 337 2943



What a joyous moment for the conventional optical retailer in Canada, the USA and every other country CC has some of their many websites and free glasses ads running. Your biggest and best supplier has now become a competitor that sells by the thousands of pairs of glasses on a daily basis directly to the consumer.


....................and what do you say ??????????????????????????????????????????????

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## TEdFitz

Angelfire's still crankin' out the goodies!!

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## idispense

The humorous side of me remembered this tid bit of wisdom:

" Politicians and diapers have one thing in common..............." 

I just  can't quite remember the punch line

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## edKENdance

The part that's really getting to me is that when we use our locally located Essilor lab we are supporting our local economy from the people that work there to the courier drivers who take our stuff to the lab.  We've made a big jump to do a large percentage of our jobs out east through an independent.  If all ecp support for the lab did the same thing then E would probably just shut the lab down and put all those people out of work.  All our cash still stays in Canada but we're in a position of not being able to support our local economy.  That unnerves me.

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## Chris Ryser

> *
> Chris, I would love to hear your opinion of how the order of opticians and order of optometrist in Quebec will handle this*. 
> 
> It is at par IE: with your son of 20 years old suddenly finding out that his father is the head of the mafia. The deep roots and free supplies to both school programs SHOULD be cancelled by the two orders. Otherwise how can they proceed with their lawsuit, if they are also taking freebies from their accused. This MAY create a situation that will finally unbind the hands of Que ECPs and allow them a fair shake at the can. 
> 
> No possible retoric or lying can help either order get past this one. It will be a loose,loose loose situation for them no matter what. LOOSE the lawsuit action,LOOSE big E support for their schools, LOOSE support of their members if they side with big E. Will E refuse to sell online in Que..... big question. There may be a glimmer of hope for Que ECPs in this deal, but it will be very small.



I have told one of our friends in a private e-mail this morning that big E has used the North American market as a testing ground for their purpose of total domination of the optical market from manufacturing to the smallest retail operation. The system on this continent is no system as everybody does what they want, and if they have any opponents they elliminate them one way or another.

The only non controlled area up to a large percentage is the retail area, which they are now going to strangle. They will most probably purchase some more of the larger onliners I have listed on my optical website listing.

When they decide that they have a large enough control of the retail market, which is obviously going up in the online sector, (otherwise they would not have been aquiring one after the other),
the will increase their whole sale prices to every non afiliated retailer and strangle them that way.

It looks like a natural to me, all peacefull and commercial, nothing wrong with it, the stronger wins..

To your question about Quebec: Object No1 on my above post

*1) Essilor's mission is to enable people to enjoy a better life through better sight.
The internet can play an integral part in this misson by widening access to vision for all regardless of geography.
*
That would also include Quebec, in my opinion. Therfore they will do everything to change the laws, if needed, right to what happened in BC. (=deregulation). Should not be to hard in Quebec for them.


Discussion

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## Chris Ryser

deleted

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## Judy Canty

> The part that's really getting to me is that when we use our locally located Essilor lab we are supporting our local economy from the people that work there to the courier drivers who take our stuff to the lab.  We've made a big jump to do a large percentage of our jobs out east through an independent.  If all ecp support for the lab did the same thing then E would probably just shut the lab down and put all those people out of work.  All our cash still stays in Canada but we're in a position of not being able to support our local economy.  That unnerves me.


What would stop them from closing their own labs anyway?  They have a huge investment in off-shore labs already.  Cheaper labor, fewer regulations, and as it stands now, a significant percentage of the work being ordered through US labs is being diverted to the labs in Mexico and the Far East.

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## edKENdance

> What would stop them from closing their own labs anyway?  They have a huge investment in off-shore labs already.  Cheaper labor, fewer regulations, and as it stands now, a significant percentage of the work being ordered through US labs is being diverted to the labs in Mexico and the Far East.


Fair yet bleak point Judy.

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## Judy Canty

Yet we still regard them as our friendly neighbor and business partner.

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## edKENdance

> Yet we still regard them as our friendly neighbor and business partner.


The actual people are.  When we dumped Lux the toughest part was telling the reps.  They're super nice people. Real people.

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## DickR

good point Judy AND i DO ENJOY SOME OF THE REPS.....BUT REMEMBER THEY ARE JUST OUR REPS.....NOT FAMILY OR REAL FRIENDS IN MOST CASES.

THESE COMPANIES ARE IN DIRECT COMPETITION FOR OUR CUSTOMERS AND PATIENTS.

COLLECTIVLY WE STILL ENJOY THE BIGGEST SHARE OIF THE RETAIL OPTICAL MARKET SO IF WE ALL AND I MEAN ALL OF US INDEPENDENTS DROP THEIR PRODUCTS FROM OUR LINES.....THEY WILL CLOSE SOME LABS AND CHANGE THEIR TUNE TOWARD THE INDUSTRY THEY ARE MONOPOLIZING

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## Judy Canty

I have counted reps as some of my best friends and now some of my accounts are my friends as well.  Thick skin is required.

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## ex-optician

> I don't see Essilor's reply to ECP's but I do see what is probably the ugliest web design I've seen since 1996.


Agreed it is an ugly website but there is the link to the article on the main page. Unfortunately my computer skills need upgrading. Our association could use some improvement but does provide a good opportunity to get continuing education credits, job/classified board and liability insurance discounts if you are not covered at work. What probably is missing the most is a discussion forum like OptiBoard that can unite ECP's on the issues that we all face.

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## madmax

Would someone please tell me where Nikon products fits in? As I am planning to drop E I need more info.

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## idispense

> Agreed it is an ugly website but there is the link to the article on the main page. Unfortunately my computer skills need upgrading. Our association could use some improvement but does provide a good opportunity to get continuing education credits, job/classified board and liability insurance discounts if you are not covered at work. What probably is missing the most is a discussion forum like OptiBoard that can unite ECP's on the issues that we all face.


And what is the reason for that not existing at the association level ?  Why would that kind of forum not exist ?

----------


## DickR

Hoya is a lens company with an array of high quality of lens products........they truely support independents......noy like essilor that will woo you with spiffs and once they get their hooks into you will stick it to you where the sun dont shine

----------


## edKENdance

We went with Seiko.  Not a lot of alternatives up here.  We do some work with Hoya but I wouldn't go all in with them.

----------


## ex-optician

> And what is the reason for that not existing at the association level ?  Why would that kind of forum not exist ?


 Good question on which I can only guess. It could be costs as someone would have be a moderator to keep it civil. We did have a forum on the national level with the Canadian Opticians Association but it was shut down several year ago. Some of issues discussed on that forum were dividing us along provincial boundaries. Thanks to OptiBoard we do have a Canadian discussion forum and that is probably were these last few posts belong.

----------


## Uncle Fester

> COLLECTIVLY WE STILL ENJOY THE BIGGEST SHARE OF THE RETAIL OPTICAL MARKET SO IF WE ALL AND I MEAN ALL OF US INDEPENDENTS DROP THEIR PRODUCTS FROM OUR LINES.....THEY WILL CLOSE SOME LABS AND CHANGE THEIR TUNE TOWARD THE INDUSTRY THEY ARE MONOPOLIZING


No they won't.

We have to change the oligarchy in Washington DC.

Which Obama would like to do but the propaganda of the elite keeps the working class convinced it's in our best interest to accept that trickle down economics works. H. W. Bush called it right- "Voodoo Economics"- but the die was cast under the Regan administration and 34 years and counting of it's failure still has too many of us making less than 100K a year voting into office representatives and senators bought and paid for by corporations who only care about the next quarters profit.   

And nothing will unite both sides of the aisle than a threat to their power so good luck on creating the third party that we so desperately need. 

Or... Eliminate the Electoral College... 
Or... Federally fund presidential and congressional elections so the little people's vote actually counts!!!

(steps down from the soap box)

----------


## DickR

they absolutly will Fester close weak labs made weaker if and only if we collectrivly drop them from our lines.......This fester takes initiative and not settling for the crumbs that are sprinkled down ..

I still believe we are in charge of our particular destiny.......I for one am not relying on my senator or any one in govt to help me.......It is up to us as individuals and together as independents sticking together to achieve what we aree discussing here

----------


## Uncle Fester

> I still believe we are in charge of our particular destiny.......I for one am not relying on my senator or any one in govt to help me.......It is up to us as individuals and together as independents sticking together to achieve what we aree discussing here


On OptiBoard you're preaching to the choir but the choir unfortunately has no sway on church policy imho.   :Frown:

----------


## DickR

from what i see here fester.....that some in the choir need to be encouraged to grow some ......to have the courage to truely be independent from big brother ......i will say sometimes it isnt easy xxxx but it can and needs to be done

----------


## Judy Canty

We have become an economy based on fear.  Fear of unfilled appointment slots, fear of quiet dispensaries, fear of down time of any kind.  When we learn to embrace the quiet time and embrace the private pay patients, we will win.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *We have become an economy based on fear.  Fear of unfilled appointment slots, fear of quiet dispensaries, fear of down time of any kind. * *When we learn to embrace the quiet time and embrace the private pay patients, we will win.*



Essilor is now the most powerful corporation in the optical trade which has now shown their official plans for the future of the optical retail business by taking over the most active oline optical company.

They own a large part of machine manufacturers a large part of frame and lens manufacturers and now 4 of the biggest online opticals world wide. 
Frame and lens prices have been rolled back to the level they were in the 1960s at the manufacturing level. Everybody touching them wanted to get rich. The online optical had really picked the right time and economy to start their ever rising business.

Essilor is on a roll and will roll all over you if you do not come up with some smart solutions to survive.

----------


## HindSight2020

> Essilor is now the most powerful corporation in the optical trade which has now shown their official plans for the future of the optical retail business by taking over the most active oline optical company.
> 
> They own a large part of machine manufacturers a large part of frame and lens manufacturers and now 4 of the biggest online opticals world wide. 
> Frame and lens prices have been rolled back to the level they were in the 1960s at the manufacturing level. Everybody touching them wanted to get rich. The online optical had really picked the right time and economy to start their ever rising business.
> 
> Essilor is on a roll and will roll all over you if you do not come up with some smart solutions to survive.


 Chris, there is life without Essilor and always will be.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Chris, there is life without Essilor and always will be.*



Yes there is.............................do we want to sleep on a park bench.................or at the Salvation Army...............or a comfortable bed at home?

Will you feel the presence of a E on the online market when their sales are going to be double and triple of what they are already doing ? When the yearly sales will be up to 30 million pairs a year ?

----------


## idispense

Some universities offer courses such as: Surviving Disruptive Technologies

----------


## idispense

Ownership might change, but the laws in Ontario and many other provinces have not.

----------


## idispense

Reading the Sec 40-F and 13 filings is as relevant now as before

----------


## idispense

Although an on liner of this magnitude  is an application and form of disruptive technology, enabled by unenforced regulations, it is old hat disruptive technology. It can and will be replaced by a new disruptive technology already surfacing. This was only a first generation disruption. 

The coming generation disruption will bypass the need for a surfacing or edging lab. Edgers will be obsolete as will generators and cylinder machines.

----------


## HindSight2020

> Yes there is.............................do we want to sleep on a park bench.................or at the Salvation Army...............or a comfortable bed at home?
> 
> Will you feel the presence of a E on the online market when their sales are going to be double and triple of what they are already doing ? When the yearly sales will be up to 30 million pairs a year ?


It won't happen.  I had a total of 5 conference calls with clients indicating they're now going to give us 100% of their business.


Although we are smaller, we can compete superiorly on a thing called service.  Here's to red wine.

----------


## HindSight2020

> Although an on liner of this magnitude  is an application and form of disruptive technology, enabled by unenforced regulations, it is old hat disruptive technology. It can and will be replaced by a new disruptive technology already surfacing. This was only a first generation disruption. 
> 
> The coming generation disruption will bypass the need for a surfacing or edging lab. Edgers will be obsolete as will generators and cylinder machines.


Stop smoking mary jane and being a fear monger.  Every opinion and post you have ever listed is absolute rhetoric and untrue.

----------


## idispense

I don't edge with patterns.
I don't block with alloy 
I don't get music from Sam the Record Man 
I don't get movies from BlockBuster
I don't get my photos from Kodak 
I don't use a DSLR
I don't buy maps 
I don't use a Tom Tom or Garmin 


Hindsight , is this rhetoric ?  Your negativity continues. 

Perhaps  you should spend an afternoon with the President at Kodak or Blockbuster or 
many other huge multi national corporations that were knocked out and blind sided by disruptive innovation.

----------


## optical24/7

WARNING! ALL ECP'S! GET OUT OF OPTICS NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN! 

 The internet is going to run you out of business. Disregard that your business is up. Don't believe it when you hear that there is growth in vision care needs. Forget about your other competition that has B&M locations that sells for internet prices already, and has been selling at those prices for years. (They have already put all their local competition out of business already... haven't they? Hello Wally and Eyeglass World..)

Send all your frames back to the manufacturer, melt down your edger for the scrap metal. Doc, do the same thing with your exam equipment, there's an app to replace you!

Now then, if you are crazy enough to stay in this business that is DOOMED to go the way of the dodo, the only way you will servive is to sell eye glass adjustments and frame repairs. You can charge what dishwasher repairmen charge..89 bucks per visit. The public will be lined out your door ready to pay that fee for their 29 dollar glasses.

Face it, we had a good run. But we're dinosaurs now. Time to move on. I'll miss you optical...

----------


## idispense

> WARNING! ALL ECP'S! GET OUT OF OPTICS NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN! 
> 
>  The internet is going to run you out of business. Disregard that your business is up. Don't believe it when you hear that there is growth in vision care needs. Forget about your other competition that has B&M locations that sells for internet prices already, and has been selling at those prices for years. (They have already put all their local competition out of business already... haven't they? Hello Wally and Eyeglass World..)
> 
> Send all your frames back to the manufacturer, melt down your edger for the scrap metal. Doc, do the same thing with your exam equipment, there's an app to replace you!
> 
> Now then, if you are crazy enough to stay in this business that is DOOMED to go the way of the dodo, the only way you will servive is to sell eye glass adjustments and frame repairs. You can charge what dishwasher repairmen charge..89 bucks per visit. The public will be lined out your door ready to pay that fee for their 29 dollar glasses.
> 
> Face it, we had a good run. But we're dinosaurs now. Time to move on. I'll miss you optical...




optical24/7:

people still watch movies, still listen to music, still enjoy pictures, still navigate, .... They just don't use dinosaurs as providers.

people still communicate with words, but they don't type them on a IBM Selectric

people still store data, but not on a 14 inch floppy or a 8 inch or a 5 1/4 inch or even a 3 1/2 inch or 1.8 inch disc drive ... Those dinosaurs are extinct

people still need glasses 
but they no longer need to the same extent: 
 shoe repairmen 
dry cleaners
b&m banks 
post offices 
cash 

 your wild conclusions are ridiculous, the need for the end product that is good enough  replacement has not changed , the method of obtaining that product or service has changed and will continue to change.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *It won't happen.  I had a total of 5 conference calls with clients indicating they're now going to give us 100% of their business.
> 
> 
> Although we are smaller, we can compete superiorly on a thing called service.  Here's to red wine.
> *



Congratulations..................so you will be a winner through what others call a disaster. This always happens in situations like this.

However as far as I can see is that online glasses sold will be up to 20 and up to 30 million sold by the next 2-3 years and the B&M retailers will feel the punch.  ....................also do not under estimate the power and intelligence of our friends at Essilor.

----------


## HindSight2020

[QUOTE=idispense;480370]I don't edge with patterns.
I don't block with alloy 
I don't get music from Sam the Record Man 
I don't get movies from BlockBuster
I don't get my photos from Kodak 
I don't use a DSLR
I don't buy maps 
I don't use a Tom Tom or Garmin 


Hindsight , is this rhetoric ?  Your negativity continues. 

Perhaps  you should spend an afternoon with the President at Kodak or Blockbuster or 
many other huge multi national corporations that were knocked out and blind sided by disruptive innovation.[/QUOTE

Have you ever had a positive thought?  Take your time.

----------


## HindSight2020

> Congratulations..................so you will be a winner through what others call a disaster. This always happens in situations like this.
> 
> However as far as I can see is that online glasses sold will be up to 20 and up to 30 million sold by the next 2-3 years and the B&M retailers will feel the punch.  ....................also do not under estimate the power and intelligence of our friends at Essilor.


It's called a sales cycle Chris, not a disaster.  You win some, you lose some.  I have never underestimated their power or intelligence - however I will say it again - there is life without them.

----------


## idispense

It's not just a sales cycle. That oversimplifies it. 
It's the management of sustaining technology vs disruptive.
It's not a disaster either, it's a shift from sustaining provider to disruptive provider. 
E's foresight to manage the two provides their growth, hindsight operates in the backwash  eddy E creates, but the eddy pool is limited in size

----------


## optical24/7

> your wild conclusions are ridiculous,.....
> .


And your's is not? Ophthalmic compared to Blockbusters? Are you a dispensing optician? How much is your business down due to your clients going to the net? Just how much of the market do you think the net will take? Will that percentage out strip increased demand for services?

What's in the water in Canada? It seems all the doom and gloom predictions of the net running B&M opticals out of business come from up north.

----------


## HindSight2020

> WARNING! ALL ECP'S! GET OUT OF OPTICS NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN! 
> 
> The internet is going to run you out of business. Disregard that your business is up. Don't believe it when you hear that there is growth in vision care needs. Forget about your other competition that has B&M locations that sells for internet prices already, and has been selling at those prices for years. (They have already put all their local competition out of business already... haven't they? Hello Wally and Eyeglass World..)
> 
> Send all your frames back to the manufacturer, melt down your edger for the scrap metal. Doc, do the same thing with your exam equipment, there's an app to replace you!
> 
> Now then, if you are crazy enough to stay in this business that is DOOMED to go the way of the dodo, the only way you will servive is to sell eye glass adjustments and frame repairs. You can charge what dishwasher repairmen charge..89 bucks per visit. The public will be lined out your door ready to pay that fee for their 29 dollar glasses.
> 
> Face it, we had a good run. But we're dinosaurs now. Time to move on. I'll miss you optical...



Great post!

----------


## HindSight2020

> It's not just a sales cycle. That oversimplifies it. 
> It's the management of sustaining technology vs disruptive.
> It's not a disaster either, it's a shift from sustaining provider to disruptive provider. 
> E's foresight to manage the two provides their growth, hindsight operates in the backwash eddy E creates, but the eddy pool is limited in size


Check your meds.  Perhaps time to up the dose.

----------


## HindSight2020

> And your's is not? Ophthalmic compared to Blockbusters? Are you a dispensing optician? How much is your business down due to your clients going to the net? Just how much of the market do you think the net will take? Will that percentage out strip increased demand for services?
> 
> What's in the water in Canada? It seems all the doom and gloom predictions of the net running B&M opticals out of business come from up north.



Please don't hold what one dilusional pessimist says against the rest of Canucks.  The rest of us are good folks.

----------


## drk

Here's what will happen.  This is based on history.  We aren't seeing anything completely new.

First of all: online opticianry doesn't work.  Don't give me sales figures--it won't work for the majority of people.  Ergo, they will need to see a professional when things go wrong.  

Most people will still go to a professional and not do it themselves.  They're not that stupid.

What will happen, however, is that this will represent a downward price pressure on optical goods, similar to what we saw in contact lenses.  (As a review, CL prices dropped to about the same level as online providers, and then stabilized.)  When we're comparing do-it-yourself service to professional service, it has to be lower.  

Likewise, we're comparing virtual inventories to real inventories: not expensive and very expansive vs. expensive and more focused.  While people do like choice in eye wear, they don't need fifty look-alike frames that they like; they're only buying one.  About three to five to choose from is plenty. 

What's more, B&M opticals can have virtual inventories as well.  Most frame companies have rather decent websites, now.  Maybe we'll need a computer station or pad or laptop or something to hand out if someone doesn't see what they like in your optical.

But make no mistake: this is entirely about price.  I don't care what some pointy-headed person says about the thrill of buying online, it's about getting glasses, cheap.  As long as we set the narrative that they are cheap, do-it-yourself glasses, and that we don't approve, then we'll be fine.  

Hey, we can't regulate against stupid.  I'd like to, but we're seeing de-regulation because of the monied interests in "big optical": Luxottica, NAAVCP, VSP, essilor.  

There will be two domains in vision care: the commercial, and the professional.  You are not going to independently survive the mass merchandising.  You have to be professional/small/knowledgeable/specialty/boutique/personal, etc. It's a more demanding, smaller market, but that's what it's going to take.

The sides are formed.  We have to choose.

----------


## coupe

I would love to be "a fly on the wall" as Essilor bosses read all of our panic and fears discussed on this site. They must be laughing in their beer, while we cry foul.  For years now ECP's have been  exploiting their priveledge licencing to fill their pockets with large profits. Optical labs have risen the prices of lenses to ridiculous levels. ECP"s ....eyeglasses for $900.00 / $1200.00 / $1500.00 a pair. Misguided sales with1.67 in a -1.00 Rx..... AR coatings on half-eye glasses,on a 86 year old lady, because there is a commission on each AR sale. Essilor's own lab prices for lenses in the upper 3 / 4/ 5/ $.oo  wholessale level. Wholesale frame prices totally out of wack for INJECTED CRAP. Let's not fool ourselves. We are partly to blame. Anything that is about to happen should be 50/50 blame on both parties. 

*NOW the question is how do WE fix what WE broke.
*

----------


## coupe

MAKEOPTICS.......I did not see your incriminating eveidence. You mentioned it so stop teasing and spill the beans. All and any info will be of help here. Cough up man.

----------


## mshimp

> makeoptics.......i did not see your incriminating eveidence. You mentioned it so stop teasing and spill the beans. All and any info will be of help here. Cough up man.


 dittos

----------


## mshimp

> Here's what will happen.  This is based on history.  We aren't seeing anything completely new.
> 
> First of all: online opticianry doesn't work.  Don't give me sales figures--it won't work for the majority of people.  Ergo, they will need to see a professional when things go wrong.  
> 
> Most people will still go to a professional and not do it themselves.  They're not that stupid.
> 
> What will happen, however, is that this will represent a downward price pressure on optical goods, similar to what we saw in contact lenses.  (As a review, CL prices dropped to about the same level as online providers, and then stabilized.)  When we're comparing do-it-yourself service to professional service, it has to be lower.  
> 
> Likewise, we're comparing virtual inventories to real inventories: not expensive and very expansive vs. expensive and more focused.  While people do like choice in eye wear, they don't need fifty look-alike frames that they like; they're only buying one.  About three to five to choose from is plenty. 
> ...


 Well said. +1

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *1)
> But make no mistake: this is entirely about price.  I don't care what some pointy-headed person says about the thrill of buying online, it's about getting glasses, cheap.  As long as we set the narrative that they are cheap, do-it-yourself glasses, and that we don't approve, then we'll be fine.  
> 
> 2)
> Hey, we can't regulate against stupid.  I'd like to, but we're seeing de-regulation because of the monied interests in "big optical": Luxottica, NAAVCP, VSP, essilor.  
> 
> There will be two domains in vision care: the commercial, and the professional.  You are not going to independently survive the mass merchandising.  You have to be professional/small/knowledgeable/specialty/boutique/personal, etc. It's a more demanding, smaller market, but that's what it's going to take.
> 
> The sides are formed.  We have to choose.
> *




*1) Commercial*

Yes its all about glasses getting cheaper .................................................


However when eyglasss frames are made today at a manufacturing level pricing as it was in the 1960s, when I had a fair sized distributorship of some of European made well known brands.

Then frame costs were multiplied with the standard factors by optical retailers and sold at that price to consumers. 

Todays frames avarage the same range of pricing ex factory as they did 51 years ago, only their selling price at the retail level is now between 7 to 15 times more than it was then.

Actually the newest and latest frames today look just about what they looked then, with the easiest to apply rivet hinges.

The consumer might not know that, but the onliers have done their studies.

Lenses are in plastic, either cast or molded by the millions in Thailand and other places in the far East, when in the old days they had to be surfaced, which was a long process, as they were made from glass.
Todays lenses are selling ex factory at prices so low that you would not even dare to dream about, but is easy to find on todays internet. You can also get periodic price lists by e-mail if you ask for it.
The exceptions for higher prices are the made to Rx lenses done in local labs.

*2) Professional*

Yes drk is right, there is a place for professionals, they are needed to supply the Rx, maybe only until you will get access to the latest technology to come up with a satisfactory solution to do that job too. 

However most Professionls are also into the commercial class and have followed the traditional trend as per above.

Yes it is all about price and consumers are bombarded at every corner of the media about it, there is no escape of missing it. Specially the ones from Essilors latest family member which is an open book, so far at least.

----------


## optical24/7

> *But make no mistake: this is entirely about price*.  I don't care what some pointy-headed person says about the thrill of buying online, it's about getting glasses, cheap.  As long as we set the narrative that they are cheap, do-it-yourself glasses, and that we don't approve, then we'll be fine.


A point I've been trying to say for a long time. The net is just another competitor in the low cost market. We've (all of us) had this type of competition all around us for years. There's a regional chain (Eyemart) that has 2 pr lens/frame complete for $57, 2 pr of PAL's for $97. National vision has similar pricing. These guys have been around for years! These are B&M's with real try on, and someone there to at least pretend to take a measurement and bend a frame. (No offense to the well trained and highly skilled that do work for these companies..) 

 Cheap is cheap. There's a market there for sure. But it's not the entire market or remotely the dominant portion of the market. If it was only about price, the companies above would have drove us out of business long, long ago.

When it comes to internet purchasers, it's almost entirely as you said, about price. Sure, there are those that live someplace so remote that the convenience is a factor (big group, right?).

The market very well may move towards unbundling, but smaller independents can turn on a dime and do the same, if we see the industry head that direction. Some of you can sit and fret about the net. Me, I'm gonna worry more about someone like a Barry S. opening across the street from me, not Eyemart, their ilk or the net providers.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *NOW the question is how do WE fix what WE broke.
> *



..................and so far no answer

Her is one. I went at lenght on the other thread. It is all about prices. Pople dont want to pay $ 800 to $ 1400.00 for a pair of lenses and look for a better deal while still knowing that the one that charges the high prices is most probably the better quality option.

So far there is not one yet, that has made a comment on charging for material and service separatly as most service providers do these days. Materials may vary by manufacturers and materials while services are provided by good or not so good ones.

When selling glasses as material you can not be so far from on-liner competitors which can not provice any service at all. They do the lab work according to the RX and deliver.  In their prices they include all the work they do including a profit addition. The glasses are dispatched and they either fit or do not.

Everything I buy or do is material, plus service needed do finish the job ====== is it possible in the optical retail ?

----------


## optimensch

Carrying an inventory of frames is risky and expensive. That's why selling frames on a cost plus basis makes no sense. Frames are fashion and you cant successfully sell fashion for cost plus some fixed amount. That is not how the world works. He who takes the inventory risk needs margins to cover that. Lenses however are generally not inventory which has risk, and are only purchased as needed....so to some extent selling lenses on a cost plus $ basis might work if marketed properly. Online is a terrible way to buy glasses and the more people try it the more they realize this. Online is simply a new channel which is not going away but which will remain marginal, second rate IMHO.

----------


## ak47

> Sadly, Stan, I think the koolaid still tastes pretty good to most.



to be quite candid, the Koolaid tastes like ****.

----------


## optimensch

I met with a high volume free form lab from china yesterday at Mido. A Canadian man runs the place. Both sv and free form with hydrophobic ar at amazing prices. They have several MEI edgers and with remote tracing can send me cut lenses within 5 days. Some big chains use them and guess what...they are happy for my much smaller volume business as well. I can't wait to get home and try this out. 

The world is changing and everything is getting democratized, so to speak. I will leave no stone unturned to avoid essilor and find a better way to operate in the new economy. Basically these guys supply lenses at 25% of the best essilor price I can get (75% off...for clarity). No minimums. Simply put, even the little guy can buy frames and lenses at or near what the big players pay.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Online is a terrible way to buy glasses and the more people try it the more they realize this. Online is simply a new channel which is not going away but which will remain marginal, second rate IMHO.
> *



optimensch......................The few largest on line Opticals on my list, ) have sold 15 million pairs of glasses in 2013 in North America and expext to sell up to 30 millions  this year.Then http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm , there is the large bunch of the smaller ones that can top this by a few more millions. 

If that is going away you will have to become the fairy that can make that wish become reality.

The next step E will work on is deregulation of the oprtical retail, so all onliners can work in a full open commercial way. They have had their foot in many of the agencies for years to accomplish what they need in the shortest possible time span. They are people that have planned way ahead, and will change the optical retail business to their favour forever.

----------


## Golfnorth

> optimensch......................The few largest on line Opticals on my list, ) have sold 15 million pairs of glasses in 2013 in North America and expext to sell up to 30 millions this year.Then http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm , there is the large bunch of the smaller ones that can top this by a few more millions. 
> 
> If that is going away you will have to become the fairy that can make that wish become reality.
> 
> The next step E will work on is deregulation of the oprtical retail, so all onliners can work in a full open commercial way. They have had their foot in many of the agencies for years to accomplish what they need in the shortest possible time span. They are people that have planned way ahead, and will change the optical retail business to their favour forever.


Makes sense to me. Won't the ECP's that have supported the big E be kicking themselves then?

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## idispense

I wonder what the associations have to say to welcome in this event ?

----------


## HindSight2020

> I wonder what the associations have to say to welcome in this event ?


What can they say?  Why would one approach their biggest corporate is sponsor to voice their concerns and dismay?  Same goes for the Colleges and Universities. 

Never bite the hand that feeds you!

----------


## drk

> Carrying an inventory of frames is risky and expensive. That's why selling frames on a cost plus basis makes no sense. Frames are fashion and you cant successfully sell fashion for cost plus some fixed amount. That is not how the world works. He who takes the inventory risk needs margins to cover that. Lenses however are generally not inventory which has risk, and are only purchased as needed....so to some extent selling lenses on a cost plus $ basis might work if marketed properly. Online is a terrible way to buy glasses and the more people try it the more they realize this. Online is simply a new channel which is not going away but which will remain marginal, second rate IMHO.


Good post, mensch. 

We already do cost + on lenses: acquistion price + dispensing fee = retail price.

We really do that on frames, too, but not as simply:

acquistion cost + cost of retailing + cost of service = retail price.

I'm certainly happy to live off of the fees for services I provide.

But let's examine the "costs of retailing" above and beyond cost of goods sold, as you mention:

1. shrinkage (not the Costanza type)
2. depreciation (that's a biggie)
3. overhead for a retail environment (a very biggie)

What else can we add, here?

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Good post, mensch. 
> 
> 
> 1. shrinkage (not the Costanza type)
> 2. depreciation (that's a biggie)
> 3. overhead for a retail environment (a very biggie)
> 
> **What else can we add, here?*



You forgot your material purchasing and Rx finfishing cost which are your most costly items next to your rent.

Those are items you can save big time if you care to look around and do some searching.

----------


## drk

Thanks, Chris.

I was trying to highlight other value-added things that B&M stores provide, and not include the cost of goods sold (but as you say, that's a fertile area for reducing the total retail price).

For example, do your stores have heat?  Do customers really need that?  How about music?  I just spent $70 for an online music subscription and now I wish patients would just listen to me hum.

What about carpet?  High color-rendition light bulbs?  Upholstered waiting room chairs?  That stuff costs too much.

My frameboards weren't cheap.  I pay a cleaning service.  

I hired a licensed optician.  Big waste when a teenager can say "hi" and point to the optical.  I have a nice frame warmer, tools, a couple of lensometers, etc.  But that's only for the jobs that we actually fit to patients' faces or do a quality control on.

A phone so we can be reached.  Several lines, at that.  Customer service is too costly.  A voicemail service or a "contact us" e-mail link would cost a lot less.

I don't know if people value this fluff, anymore.

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## Chris Ryser

Drk ....................you got a point.

However you probably did  not read the thread where I wrote that the cost=sales of frames leaving the factories is now just about the same it was 51 years ago.

Then it was sold in the retail times for (whatever)

Today it is sold to an exporter who sells it to an importer who resells it for (whatever times whatever)

The importer sells it to a distributor who then resells it for (whatever x whatever x whatever + warranty charges and sales commission) to an optical retailer.

The optical retailer takes his normal (markup to cover  his expenses and make a profit.

*Where do you think the on-line opticals buy their frames ?????????????????????
*
Straight from the source................at the lowest price and maybe even get some discounts for quantity orders.

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## Uilleann

I bet you use actual optical grade mono/polymers for your glasses too right DrK?  You know you could save a LOAD of cash just by cutting out the bottoms of plastic water bottles, and mounting those up instead.  ;)

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## optimensch

Yes online is growing but it is not necessarily a zero sum game as you seem to suggest. Because 10 million pairs are "sold" online (is selling below cost or giving free glasses 'selling'?) does NOT mean 10 million fewer pairs were sold in real stores.
It can only grow so much and then it levels off. I've said it before...contacts are a commodity, no fashion, and super easy to sell online. They are at 16%. Glasses will not get there, IMHO. Opticals in the real world have started to become more competitive with on lines for contacts and no one online is making money now selling them. 
After MIDO and seeing all the action and all the innovation and merchandise, I feel more confident about the future of optical. However, real Opticals must adapt and offer smarter packages and options and service. It is not complicated to do. Online is changing things, yes. But there will be Opticals on the streets and in the malls for a long time to come.

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## optimensch

There are incredible boutique, P/L and designer frame collections out there that are NOT owned by L. There are many lens suppliers of all kinds that are NOT owned by E, despite the reports to the contrary here. I spent 3 full days at the trade show this past weekend and you could not see it all. ECPs and independent suppliers are not stupid and everyone is smelling the stinky coffee being brewed by E and L. People adapt and innovate, many will thrive. Some will not make it. That is how it is, and how it always was. If you don't get off your a-- and look for new ideas and products, don't complain if business drops. I have never done better than we are doing now and I plan on growing much more.

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## tx11

> Thanks, Chris.
> 
> I was trying to highlight other value-added things that B&M stores provide, and not include the cost of goods sold (but as you say, that's a fertile area for reducing the total retail price).
> 
> For example, do your stores have heat?  Do customers really need that?  How about music?  I just spent $70 for an online music subscription and now I wish patients would just listen to me hum.
> 
> What about carpet?  High color-rendition light bulbs?  Upholstered waiting room chairs?  That stuff costs too much.
> 
> My frameboards weren't cheap.  I pay a cleaning service.  
> ...


I would venture to say that the retail environment really isn't that important to many clients and they would gladly pay $100 less to purchase their name brand frames in a "less hi end looking dispensary" and feel great about the great lower price. That seems to be one of the problems that B&M has with on line and fashion frames...people can get the same product for (sometimes $100)  less. Many probably do not use "our" dispensaries to try them on because many on liners offer a fairly easy return policy . (talking frames only here).

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## optimensch

That's what makes a market. Some people will try online, some never will. Of those who try online, not all will like the experience for a variety of reasons. Because someone buys something online does NOT mean they are lost to the real stores. It is just silly to think that. I have bought shirts online and I never will again. It's a nonsensical thing to imagine people will stop shopping in stores.

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## tx11

Here's a question : how many on optiboard have purchased anything on Amazon.com or overstock.com or Rockautoparts...etc..?

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## Fezz

> Here's a question : how many on optiboard have purchased anything on Amazon.com or overstock.com or Rockautoparts...etc..?



Here is a question: How many of those purchases are custom made medical devices?

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## tx11

Hi Fezz. The brand name frames are not custom made. They are mass produced. Sometimes that's up to 2/3 of the retail cost of a pair of glasses. Just sayin'

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## Fezz

What's your point? Just sayin'

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## tx11

> What's your point? Just sayin'


Earlier in the thread drk asked if people still valued the retail environment. All of my statements were related to that and the previous statement that online purchasing was motivated by lower price. Frames ,auto parts cds, dvds..etc can all be sold for less if they don't have the expense of being displayed. More than a few items that we purchase on line today we used to purchase in the stores. ... that's all I was sayin :Wink:

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## Chris Ryser

> *Yes online is growing but it is not necessarily a zero sum game as you seem to suggest. Because 10 million pairs are "sold" online (is selling below cost or giving free glasses 'selling'?) does NOT mean 10 million fewer pairs were sold in real stores.
> 
> Glasses will not get there, IMHO. Opticals in the real world have started to become more competitive with on lines for contacts* *and no one online is making money now selling them.* *
> *


After the actual takeover you might not see any more sales and profit figures by CC if E changes the setup.

Anything that is  Essilor owned and selling on line is going to make money as they will be the manufacturer of the goods from frames to lenses, selling to their largest onliners, plus they just might or will end the give away game.

Also whatever is offered at shows in Milan or New York this month and Paris later this year, will be available to onliners who are also present there, to look for the latest in the field.

All of us making a living from the status quo should have an alternative plan to apply, we can use to make a living when the internet commercial selling gets even stronger. 

My indoor air-conditioner and heater died yesterday afternoon in my Florida office. No equivalent replacement available in Town so I checked the internet and found a few at Amazon and purchased one of 14,000 BTUs at $ 350.00 less than Home Depot who did not have one. It costs me another $ 29.95 for next day shipping and per their e-mail I will get it today.

One other feature was the one button shopping, choose the product and click the button. All the information is there: No need to go there, address and payment mode is all on record, just click the button and a 100 pound item will be at your door the next day hundreds of miles away.

Soon the consumer will order a new pair of glasses to go to some event on Friday this week somewhere on this continent and Fedex will deliver Friday afternoon in 2 days from now wherever it is.

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## drk

My point is that we're selling service, largely.  Service ain't free.  It can't be.

"Price-Quality-Service, choose two" as they say.  

We'll always sell service.  We are a service industry.  (For God's sake, don't give away services, please.)

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## Chris Ryser

drk.............if you sell service you can deal with any on line customer who needs service and you will never be put of business.

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## coupe

Chris,
I previuosly mentioned that a certain opticain in Quebec had suddenly started to buy up local independents. Actually he has reached app. 18 stores in little over two years. It was stated that possibly E was backing these purchases. *So, grab your hats and think about this*. Could this be E's way of overcoming the Quebec Optician/Optometrist rules. Get as many locations as you can throughout Quebec and then have all of the *CC ONLINE eyeglasses* delievered to E's local "independent store" for fittings/adjustments and any other issues. Completely within the rules and no confrontation with the two orders. Keeps E looking like a hero to most Quebec opticians/optometrist and stops the two orders from becoming enemies or aggressive against E. Plus E then has the added value of only selling E products, in these stores, to the puplic that does not buy online. A win..win situation for them.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Chris,
> I previuosly mentioned that a certain opticain in Quebec had suddenly started to buy up local independents. Actually he has reached app. 18 stores in little over two years. It was stated that possibly E was backing these purchases. So, grab your hats and think about this. Could this be E's way of overcoming the Quebec Optician/Optometrist rules.*



coupe,

If they have not initiated this already you have just given them an idea.    

However I would suspect that they have checked all the roads and obstacles before making the deal and everything will go the way, as planned ahead. They weigh the for's and counter's very carefully and when they make a deal it is in their overall interest.

We should know by now, that they will only stop their "progression" when the martians will open a giant sinkhole that will swallow them up.

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## Stan Tabor

Is it me or did Coastal just increase their prices?  I see they still have a give away on the cheap frames, but you need to buy $99 to get free shipping.  Ray bans are $199 and up and lenses are extra.  This could end up being like glasses.com where luxottica significantly increased their prices after buying the site.  

Another comment...an earlier post talked about disruptive technology.  I would be very careful before going out and paying a premium for an online that is a generic brand like coastal.

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## drk

Well, if I were the kind of corporate optical that wanted to actually make money, I'd raise prices...

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## afshinmasror

I already stopped ordering from Essilor....I dont like to feed my competitor....Continuing to order Essilor products by independent optical business means you are  enemy of your own business...Essilor has a unfair plan for future they want to promote their lenses by optical business then start selling Crizal and other branded lenses cheaper than us by online ...I wish we,optician and optometrist, get awaken to stop ordering from Essilor.....

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## Chris Ryser

> *Well, if I were the kind of corporate optical that wanted to actually make money, I'd raise prices...
> *



Unless the item sold is a super hot one............by raising prices you make more money but you sell less. The right way is to sell more at the lower price and make more money that way.

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## djal

> I already stopped ordering from Essilor....I dont like to feed my competitor....Continuing to order Essilor products by independent optical business means you are enemy of your own business...Essilor has a unfair plan for future they want to promote their lenses by optical business then start selling Crizal and other branded lenses cheaper than us by online ...I wish we,optician and optometrist, get awaken to stop ordering from Essilor.....


We also stopped dealing with Essilor. Hoya is now our main lab. I just can't understand Hoya Canada's way of operating though. Hoya has great products in Asia which they do not bring in here... For example , Hoya could be the the first company (or among the first) to have a stock lens with a blue filtering AR in North America; they even did not know it existed and first told me they could not find where it came from... I called Hoya Hong Kong and I was told it is made by Hoya in their manufacturing plant in South China! It is sold in most countries in Asia including Russia and Hoya Canada had NO CLUE whatsoever what I was talking about. And the treatment has the name "Blue Control" instead of "Recharge". "Recharge", what a terrible name for a blue filtering AR; why didn't they take the name which existed already in Asia?? Blue Control speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Also, Hoya has also a wonderful line of polarised lenses/tints in Asia (9 tints in all) called Polatech and AGAIN the people from Hoya Canada knew nothing about it!!! And they want to compete with Essilor... when you go to war you make sure you have the best weapons to "fight" your opponents. I rattled the cage a few days ago when I phoned the headquarter in Ontario; I hope it gives some results but I doubt. When I have to tell Hoya about products it owns and no one here in Canada heard about these products, something is terribly wrong... :Confused:

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