# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Has anyone had problems with crazing on Crizal Alize?

## Happylady

In 1 weeks time we had 2 pairs of Crizal Alize craze. The first pair crazed when he was wearing them while using a grill. The second pair crazed when an optician warmed the frame in a hot air frame warmer. She told me the lenses crazed before her eyes.

Now I know that too much heat isn't good for ar lenses, but we have never had a problem before or with regular Crizal. I am wondering if anyone else has had a problem?

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## chip anderson

Nope, been the best AR to date.

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## harry888

Are you sure they really were Crizal? 

I got some once from a distributor that my Essilor rep said was not an authorized distributor, and the price seemed too good to be true. 

Didn't track those lenses to see if they scratched, but I got suspicious of the possibility of counterfeits when the stock lenses started having the watermark.

Harry

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## cinders831

Yup!  I like regular crizal better then Alize.   It wears better, I have had much better success with reg crizal.

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## For-Life

I have not had problems but here is some insight.

When we moved to our old location a OD around that location stopped dispensing and moved.  He always put on his scripts when he dispensed Life XS with Crizal (yes, life xs even if you have a frame with a 80B).  Anyways, all of his customers lenses crazed as we noticed when they came to us.  At that time we used Crizal.  So my hypothesis was the Rodenstock was putting a hardcoat on the lens and then Essilor was coating them.

My lab rep (Essilor lab, but different Essilor lab than the OD's) told me that he would get his lenses coated in Vancouver and Montreal where the other lab would get them coated in Toronto, and that the it was the manufacturering of it.

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## Happylady

I am sure it was Crizal. At least I am trusting the lab that we have used for years that it was. The invoices said Crizal Alize.

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## Ryan

Absolutely!!!! I thought it was just me.  I go dispense a Alize job, go heat it up, before patient puts on, lens is crazed and is very obvious marks that weren't on there before.  Mainly when heating frame.  I have had this happen 2-3 different times.  These were definitely Alize jobs because they were stock lenses and I personally saw them out of the packages.  Most uncut jobs from lab seem ok, but stock lenses seem to have most problem.  I thought it was something I was doing that was causing this.  I still love the coating, but I am very careful heating up zyl frames with ALize lense. :Nerd:

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## Happylady

My one patient had his craze when he was grilling outside! Am I supposed to tell people not to grill in their glasses?

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## Chris Ryser

> *My one patient had his craze when he was grilling outside! Am I supposed to tell people not to grill in their glasses?*


Coming out of the air conditioned house  and work on grill xan just do it to the best lens. Fast change from cold to hot.

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## Peter Z

It could be that the Stock Crizal Alize are not made with the same hardcoat that Rx Jobs are made with.  I believe that all Essilor stock lenses are now being made in Thailand.   This crazing happens when you have different coefficients of expansion between the lens and the coatings.

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## spazz

Yes, but the problems seem to only be with stock lenses, we haven't had the problems with surface jobs.

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## Spexvet

> My one patient had his craze when he was grilling outside! Am I supposed to tell people not to grill in their glasses?


This is an opportunity to sell task-specific specailty "grilling glasses". They're safer and heat resistant.:bbg:

PS - I've seen no issues with Alize crazing.

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## For-Life

Strange, because I have been doing the lens for 18 months and have had only one or two come back on me, and that was abuse.  I actually find them more duriable than regular Crizal.

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## Peter Z

I would agree that the Stock lenses seem to have more of an issue then the custom Rx jobs coated by an Essilor local lab.   We have seen that the difference is in the hardcoat.

There is no difference between Crizal and Crizal Alize except for the difference in the hydrophobic coatings that are applied.

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## Uncle Fester

Forget where I read it but was shocked to learn AR can craze when exposed to as little as 130 degrees fahrenheight (54.4 centigrade).
I advise all patients that even leaving them in a case in your car on a hot summer day can effect the angstroms thick coating.

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## spartus

I've had one or two craze on me after leaving it in the air warmer for about two seconds too long. Adjusting zyl frames with heavy bridges is a little trickier for me now...

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## eyecare4U

You would think they "Essilor" is able fiqure out a way that coating will be more long lasting in the heat. I have one of my doctor told me that he was wearing his sunglasses driving and his regular pair with Alize  in the case. after a few hours retuning in the car he notices that his 1.67 lenses with Alize is ruin. The condition on that that was hot 90+ degrees and humid.
Another instance I have with my patient with Alize, is a gentleman is working in the car wash, after 31/2 months of wear he brought back the glasses to me and it looks like a water spot all over the lenses. Of course the only thing I could think of is due to the harsh chemical,soaps and again the temperature. Remake time again!!! So beware of job occupation too. Might not be appropriate to the Car wash employees or people washing thier cars in the summer time :Cool:  .  
I do tons of AR and return rate and satisfaction with Crizal is still Great!!! Of course Summer is just starting. I will continue on using the coating. Just this instances I notice,  HOPE "Essilor" is listening

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## Jedi

> You would think they "Essilor" is able fiqure out a way that coating will be more long lasting in the heat.


Sure they can make a coating that is more resistant to heat, but you'll be P/O'd when it starts to scratch. Heat resistant lens (ability of the hardcoat to flex with the lens) = Softer hard coat (more scratching). More scratch resistant lens (rigid hard coat)= Less resistant to changes in temperature (crazing), take your pick.

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## eyecare4U

JEDI....I am picking both, I will spend my money to whoever could come up with the best product. It is an opportunity for R&d DEPT to get working and fix the problem.

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## Jedi

> JEDI....I am picking both, I will spend my money to whoever could come up with the best product. It is an opportunity for R&d DEPT to get working and fix the problem.


EC4U- What you have to understand is that in the current way coatings are applied/made/done there is a balance on how resistant to crazing the coating is compared to how scratch resistant the coating is. They have an inverse relationship to each other. I'm with you, I would love a scratch proof and craze proof ARC, but I would also love a distortion free progressive and three wishes too.;)

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## Chris Ryser

> *You would think they "Essilor" is able fiqure out a way that coating will be more long lasting in the heat.*


 "ESSILOR" is not any better than other coaters. They are just bigger, laarger, wider and longer and take much longer to make decisions, because too many people are involved to make changes.

When AR coating lenses are under tremedous heat for the process. This changes the structure of some lens materials.

*Has any one tried a dropball test on AR coated CR39 lenses? Do one and then make a posting right here with the results*.

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## jofelk

> *Has any one tried a dropball test on AR coated CR39 lenses? Do one and then make a posting right here with the results*.


poly 1.8 center........crazed
trivex 1.2 center.........crazed
7x28 cr39........ OK
tri fo exec cr39.......OK
tri fo 8x35 CR39..........OK
tri fo 8x35 Cr39.........OK
7x28 trans CR39.........OK
Ft35 CR39 trans................OK
Ft35 CR39 trans.........OK
progressive trans cr39...........OK
ft28 trans CR39.............OK
ft28 clear gold AR cr39........OK
8x35 clear cr39...........OK
8x35 clear cr39.............OK
high index ? 1.6 center..............OK
poly 1.6 center.......OK
poly 1.9 center.......OK

All were scrap lenses, I do not know what AR was applied.

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## Chris Ryser

Thanks Jofelk,

I think you gave some valuable information for all on the Optiboard. I suppose the poly and trivex crazed as the lenses are more flexible than CR 39 and the AR coating existing of SIO2 (silicone dioxyde = Glass) did not flex along with it.

Maybe some others can do similar test's so we could establish some mean value and that we could have a certain type of standard and know which ones will work without problems.

That should help anybody selling AR coated lenses.

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## harry888

I still suspect there are a lot of counterfeit lenses out there.

Happened with pro-clear contacts.  How hard could it be to print up a fake Alize package?

Harry

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## jimstar

Today, I went to the beach leaving my specs in a hard cover case on the dash of my car. After several hours at the beach, I returned to the car and put on my specs. Vision was all cloudy...I could not see well enough to drive. I tried cleaning them to no avail. Finally, my wife noticed that the coating was all "wavy". I would call it "orange peel"..a term they use to describe a bad paint job on a car.

After reading this forum, I have now figured out that my Crizal lens have a problem. I remember paying extra for the coating. I also remember how exhuberant my optician was about Crizal.

I now know not to barbeque or leave specs on auto dash on a hot day. Tomorrow I have to find someone who can remove the Crizal coating. Wish me luck. :Confused:  :Confused:

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## mike.elmes

sorry jimstar, but you should know better ....the dash is the WORST PLACE you can leave any pair of glasses. If you are a consumer, there is likely a warrantee, if you work in the industry, not too smart.:finger:

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## Happylady

> Today, I went to the beach leaving my specs in a hard cover case on the dash of my car. After several hours at the beach, I returned to the car and put on my specs. Vision was all cloudy...I could not see well enough to drive. I tried cleaning them to no avail. Finally, my wife noticed that the coating was all "wavy". I would call it "orange peel"..a term they use to describe a bad paint job on a car.
> 
> After reading this forum, I have now figured out that my Crizal lens have a problem. I remember paying extra for the coating. I also remember how exhuberant my optician was about Crizal.
> 
> I now know not to barbeque or leave specs on auto dash on a hot day. Tomorrow I have to find someone who can remove the Crizal coating. Wish me luck.


Hopefully they are still under warranty, your optician can help you there. Take them back to where you got them, don't just go anywhere. The dashboard of a car is one of the worst places to leave glasses, it gets very very hot. I am not surprised the lenses crazed.

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## jameselex

I have to congratulate Essilor again for its superb job on brain washing even optical professionals. 

Chris said Crizal is just the same as other coatings, I may not agree 100%, but I truly belive it is not that good as we think it is comparing with other coating. 

It is the nature of this type of  A/R coating( flexing at different rate than the lens itself) to crack/craze under heat, or pressure( when edging), doesn't matter it is crizal/nikon or something else.

Try nano-a/r and then talk about crazing even scratching! 

I don't work for "nano" companies and I also sell Crizal, but soon I can get nano a/r, I will say bye to crizal/nikon.

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## Chris Ryser

> *The first pair crazed when he was wearing them while using a grill. The second pair crazed when an optician warmed the frame in a hot air frame warmer.*


The expansion factor between plastic lens, hard coat layer, and SIO2 of the AR coating  will prevent the the three parts to flex together when exposed to extreme heat as well as cold within a short period of time. Therefor it will craze.

And this has nothing to do with brand names or manufacturer it a fact that applies for all AR coated lenses.

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## chip anderson

Jimstar:  It's warrantied take them back where you got them, they will send to crizal labe, strip and replace or replacw with new lenses and coating.

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## Mel P

Well, I guess I don't need to post my question now about needing to take off my glasses when I am putting stuff in/out of the oven (I always thought that caused the AR on a previous pair to craze)...guess I will keep taking them off, sigh.

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## For-Life

> Well, I guess I don't need to post my question now about needing to take off my glasses when I am putting stuff in/out of the oven (I always thought that caused the AR on a previous pair to craze)...guess I will keep taking them off, sigh.


While the AR's of today may still craze when placed in the windshield of a vehicle on a hot day, you should have no problems with using the oven and the lenses (unless you place them in there).

I sell close to 60 percent AR, and it is mostly Crizal D Alize.  I get maybe two, three jobs a year that are crazed.  These customers all use the barbeque, ovens, have saunas and hot tubs, and go outside when it is -40C.  It is a durable coating.

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## opticaldork

is it just me or if you know that these a/r lenses are crazing when heated with frame warmers then *keep the lenses away from the frame warmer!*  there are simple ways to avoid exposing the lenses to direct heat when adjusting frames.

as far as the grill is concerned...perhaps sticking your head directly over a grill isn't the best idea anyways?  all of that hot steam rising up probably doesn't allow for you to see what's cooking anyhow.

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## omnioptics

for minus lenses, ar crazing typically occurs near the center where the lense is thinnest and prone to flexing; and for plus lenses, the edge. most minus stocked lenses have center thickness of 1.0-1.3 center thickness and are often thinner than surfaced prescription lenses. hence, the problem with ar crazing, not just from that seen with crizal alize, may have more to do with lense thickness and material (hi 1.67, more heat sensitive than poly) than the coating itself. for plus stocked lenses, you seldom have problems with ar crazing b/c the edge usually ends up thicker then ansi standards for edge thickness, depending on the eyewire mesurements and decentration necessary for the glasses.

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## THE MEB

We have had lots of luck with surfaced crizal in all materials. stock cr-39 crizal another story. lenses looked cloudy, we put them on a slit lamp and found circular striations that were by no means clean. we called the lab, the sent us another pair of stock lenses with same results. After that experience we no longer ordered stock crizal cr-39. We have had more problems with Teflon, by far the best ar coatings for my money are hoya's.

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## Chris Ryser

> *In 1 weeks time we had 2 pairs of Crizal Alize craze. The first pair crazed when he was wearing them while using a grill. The second pair crazed when an optician warmed the frame in a hot air frame warmer. She told me the lenses crazed before her eyes.*


This has nothing to do with who made it or what brand name it carries.

Very simole answer to that...........extreme heat radiation expanded the plastic lens..........while the glass like SIO2 layer does not and therefore has no other choice than to craze.

To bad they can't make AR coatings like railways with exoansion gaps every so and so distance or the expansion gaps on concrete roads going over a bridge,


Happenings like this should not even be warranted because the optician should advise customer of this fact when delivering the glasses. 

The optician should have known better than stick a cold lens into a frame warmer where it gets the brunch of the heat. :hammer:

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## rdcoach5

> Yes, but the problems seem to only be with stock lenses, we haven't had the problems with surface jobs.


the manufacturer of the stock lenses must not have a good scratch cote . What materials are you using?

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## Chris Ryser

> *After reading this forum, I have now figured out that my Crizal lens have a problem. I remember paying extra for the coating. I also remember how exhuberant my optician was about Crizal.*


 
*Leaving glasses of any kind or type with or without coatings on a dashboard,* *has been a no no since Henri Ford started to make cars in large numbers.*

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## For-Life

While I do find that Crizal makes lenses tougher and that certain frame designs make the frames tougher, we have to really question people and their glasses use (I guess you can toss me in there too).  I wonder if people treat their $200 watches, rings, braclets, and such the same way as they do their glasses.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I wonder if people treat their $200 watches, rings, braclets, and such the same way as they do their glasses.*


Contrary to the optical, the watch industry makes watch casings in a way no optical frame or lens manufacturer has ever done. 

Some of them are totally screatch proof on the lens and also the metal casing and bracelet. They are all coated and fully indestructible. I am wearing a steel Rado and my wife's Rado has a porcelaine bracelet that's apparently stronger than steel.

I am sure that this is not a unique process but suspect that the optical manufacturing industry is not out to make something as good out of fear that the first one purchased will be the last one bought.

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## chip anderson

Don't know about all of the but watch "crystals" used to be made out of plain old plexiglas (PMMA) which is why most PMMA buttons came from places like EletroSeal Watch Crystal company.

Chip

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## Chris Ryser

*Rado* is a Swiss manufacturer of watches, with headquarters in Lengnau, Switzerland. It is noted for its use of scratch-proof materials, a field in which it is considered a pioneer.[_citation needed_] Today the company produces about half a million watches a year with a staff of about 300 in total.



      Rado Silver Star, circa 1980




Formed in 1917, Rado initially produced watch movements only. In 1957 the company launched its first collection of watches under the Rado brand. In 1962 the Rado Diastar Original, the world's first scratch-proof watch, was launched. It has been in production ever since.
In 1983 Rado became part of the SMH group which was renamed in 1998 as the Swatch Group.

from ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rado_(watch)


*If they could make scratch proof watches in 1962 how the heck our frame and lens manufacturers can not do it in 2008........46 years later*

*But they always claim to have the latest technology.*

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## rinselberg

> This has nothing to do with who made it or what brand name it carries. Very simple answer... extreme heat radiation expanded the plastic lens, but the glass-like SIO2 anti-reflective layer [cannot expand] and [this caused the AR coating to crack]... Too bad they don't make AR coatings like railways, with expansion gaps... or the expansion gaps for concrete roads on bridges. Happenings like this should not even be warranted because the optician should advise the customer of this fact when delivering the glasses. The optician should have known better than to stick a cold lens into a frame warmer.. :hammer:


Seiko Optical Europe has publicized a new kind of AR coating for organic (not glass) lenses that they call SEIKO ORGATECH. It is described as an _organic_ AR formula that remedies the cracking and crazing problems caused by the organic lens substrate expanding or contracting in conditions that are too hot or too cold. Reading between the lines, you can see that SEIKO ORGATECH is supposed to expand and contract the same way as the lens substrate, and so there is none of that thermally-induced mechanical stress that causes the cracking and crazing. _Ideally._ SEIKO ORGATECH (in theory) should outperform all of the glass-like AR packages in this regard, which is to say, all of the other AR treatments that have ever been named on this forum--except the SOL-GEL kind of AR that has been available as a spin-coat application using the Chemat/Chemalux machines and materials--which I believe is also an _organic_ AR.

What is the status of SEIKO ORGATECH in Europe? Is it good? Is it coming to the U.S. or would another poster like to volunteer whatever they might know about this?

You can read the descriptive material from SEIKO in PDF format on line or download it...SEIKO ORGATECH press release (2007)SEIKO ORGATECH "background"

And now for some levity.. this thread could use it!

_Does anybody really know what time it is?_ Chicago Transit Authority put that question on a lot of people's minds with their double-platinum recording debut in 1969. _Does anybody really know what time is?_ That's a different question. The _berg_ offers a layman's look at how one group of theoretical physicists is trying to connect the dots in a most intriguing way. If you're _in_, select ("click") the album art...

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## allanon

We've had 1 Alize lens craze and 1 Teflon craze.  Synergy has had about a dozen pair craze for us.

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## Chris Ryser

> SEIKO ORGATECH press release (2007)
> SEIKO ORGATECH "background"


 
Once again SEIKO revolutionises the spectacle lens market: new product line SEIKO ORGATECH" *heat-resistant up to 85 degrees* and pressure-resistant up to 100 kg / organic lens finishing today and tomorrow ..........

As they are talking about kilos the 85 degrees is metric and that is a good heat resistance. However a frame heater might go higher than that.

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## Chris Ryser

> *We've had 1 Alize lens craze and 1 Teflon craze. Synergy has had about a dozen pair craze for us.*


 
It still boils down to the fact that you........the optician or optometrist or your employees.........will have to be educated on this fact of heat expansion and cold contraction and its result on AR coated lenses.

This has to be passed on the the consumer, and then you charge them for a replacement because they abused their lenses instead of bashing brand names that are all using the samee rechnique and materials.

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## allanon

> It still boils down to the fact that you........the optician or optometrist or your employees.........will have to be educated on this fact of heat expansion and cold contraction and its result on AR coated lenses.


Our crazes are from the edger.  9000SX without a delicate mode means the clamp pressure has to be a tad high.

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## CaOpticalGoddess

any optician knows that extreme heat will craze a AR lens!!!!!!!

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## Chris Ryser

> *Our crazes are from the edger. 9000SX without a delicate mode means the clamp pressure has to be a tad high.*


That's good, so you know how they craze in your lab, and I am sure it does not happen anymore because you took all the precautions needed so it wont happen anymore.

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## Chris Ryser

> *any optician knows that extreme heat will craze a AR lens!!!!!!!*


Maybe you should have said;




> *any optician should know that extreme heat will craze a AR lens!!!!!!!*


Otherwise this thread would not have started the way it did, made 48 posts so far and got 2776 vews.

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## FVCCHRIS

We've done well with Crizal Alize coatings with one major exception. We will not send any Signet-Armorlite lenses to have Crizal applied. We always get those back with crazing problems. Front surface crazing so I know it's a compatability issue with their super hard front coat. Aside from that we do well with the Crizal products.

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## Chris Ryser

> * Aside from that we do well with the Crizal products*.


 
As long as you sell them to the right people and tell them what can happen if they abuse them. 

You can not change the expansion or contraction coefficient of the lens, the hard coat in between and the glass hard (SIO2) .AR coating itself.

Therefore the consumer has to be made aware of these facts. Or even an AR coating made by the aliens in an UFO or on Mars will craze.

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## Scott R

I have a pair of stock poly Alize in one of my zyl frames they are about a year old are in worse condition than a pair of pentax 1.67s ARC  I have worn for 3 years. I showed it to the rep from the lab we buy from and she told me they occasionally, very occasionally get a bad batch from essilor. My most eyewear abuseive pts. including children have had great success with all the crizal coatings.

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