# Optical Forums > Canadian Discussion Forum >  Nikon vs Essilor Lenses

## stedel

So I just found out last week that Nikon uses Essilor as their lens supplier. Does anyone know if the lenses they use are exactly the same? Like is a Nikon I just a rebranded Ovation or a Natural or something?

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## fundy

I believe nikon has a partnership with essilor but essilor is essilor and nikon is nikon to my knowlege anyway.

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## optimensch

sort of a distinction without a difference.
same polymer, same coating, lenses with front sides and backsides, sold at obscene prices, with nonsense marketing and a roster of names for "different" products which for the most part, are all the same.
somehow and by magic, E can sell a "lower" level progressive on line direct to consumer (frames direct?) with no problem, without eyecodes and visioffices and pixie opti dust.

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## Wes

The Nikon lenses sold in America are the E Accolade and Accolade Freedom.  Check your progressive identifier.

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## HindSight2020

> sort of a distinction without a difference.
> same polymer, same coating, lenses with front sides and backsides, sold at obscene prices, with nonsense marketing and a roster of names for "different" products which for the most part, are all the same.
> somehow and by magic, E can sell a "lower" level progressive on line direct to consumer (frames direct?) with no problem, without eyecodes and visioffices and pixie opti dust.


+1.  I would avoid both of them like the plague.

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## edKENdance

They're different in Canada.  Flatter base curves.  Fitting height 2mm above the cross.  No prism thinning.

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## stedel

Are they worth the extra cost?

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## edKENdance

> Are they worth the extra cost?


Extra cost?  The Nikon series in Canada has a range of progressive lenses priced similarly to any other lens manufacturer.

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## Judy Canty

> Extra cost?  The Nikon series in Canada has a range of progressive lenses priced similarly to any other lens manufacturer.


And Wal*Mart is pimping the h#ll out of them.

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## edKENdance

> And Wal*Mart is pimping the h#ll out of them.


I have no idea what Walmart sells but oddly enough it has come to my attention that Costco up here sells the Essilor Accolade Freedom which is making **** confusing.  Have to be careful because there is a Varilux lens also called a Freedom and there is no Accolade up here.  The Accolade up here is called a Biofit but Costco is American and uses the American names for everything.

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## OIC

> And Wal*Mart is pimping the h#ll out of them.


www.nikoneyes.com

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## edKENdance

Different story in Canada

http://www.nikonlenswear.ca/

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## OIC

Same story here. 

http://www.nikonlenswear.us

Look for Nikon Eyes in a Walmart near you soon.
A Nikon is a Nikon (and partially an Essilor).

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## edKENdance

> Same story here. 
> 
> http://www.nikonlenswear.us
> 
> Look for Nikon Eyes in a Walmart near you soon.
> A Nikon is a Nikon (and partially an Essilor).



if we primarily sold Nikon lenses it would be easy enough to explain the difference. They don't use Nikon coatings on the lenses and don't offer the same warranties that you can get from an independent. For all you know they might even be selling the Privilege. :)

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## lensguy

Costco in Canada has moved to their own lab production and dropped Essilor as a supplier. 

Nikon does not sell to Wally in Canada, however many sell Nikon based on the fact they dont sell to "chains". If you live in a boarder city (and even if not) I dont want my customers seeing this and "checking out what walmart has to offer". 

I think this will drive those Nikon wearers to walmart. they were sold on the brand.....bad move!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIkTlscMidE

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## edKENdance

> Costco in Canada has moved to their own lab production and dropped Essilor as a supplier. 
> 
> Nikon does not sell to Wally in Canada, however many sell Nikon based on the fact they dont sell to "chains". If you live in a boarder city (and even if not) I dont want my customers seeing this and "checking out what walmart has to offer". 
> 
> I think this will drive those Nikon wearers to walmart. they were sold on the brand.....bad move!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIkTlscMidE


i disagree. People who already shop at WalMart will continue to shop at Walmart.  People who are actually adept and care enough to know what kind of lenses they're wearing won't be duped into buying what is a very obvious Walmart branded product for the masses.

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## lensguy

I think selling lenses without discussing brand is better, regardless what you are selling. I dont like to use a brand to do the "heavy lifting". "Mr Smith these are XYZ lenses, ther are the best, bla, bla bla" 
All this does is create brand loyalty to XYZ and the customer/patient leaves thinking they can see good because they have XYZ brand. I would rather not discuss (unless asked) or not discuss (not hide) the lens brand and have them leave believing they see good (and look good) because they had a great exam and were fit and sold to properly by me. MY BRAND!

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## lensguy

> i disagree. People who already shop at WalMart will continue to shop at Walmart.  People who are actually adept and care enough to know what kind of lenses they're wearing won't be duped into buying what is a very obvious Walmart branded product for the masses.


I think there are stats that show the % of the general population that shop at walmart semi frequently to be above 80%. So unless you are either located where there is no walmart for a very, very long distance or you are so high end of a practice that your customers/patients fall into the 20% (or whatever) that truly NEVER shop there, I would hope you have not put your eggs in one basket.

Consumers trust, with your help, quality brand names. That's what it is all about!

If they see Nikon, they see Nikon.........I would have a hard time justifying "its not the same BS argument" and have done it with other products (Essilor), not part of my strategy anymore!

Walmart is built on trusted brands for less and like it or not, we cant argue the success of this giant monster!!!

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## edKENdance

I'd counter with "they aren't selling Nikon lenses, they're selling NikonEyes lenses".  Different thing.  As I mentioned before I don't primarily sell Nikon lenses but if that's what someone wants I can get them for them.  As to the original question of the thread, getting someone a Nikon Go or a Nikon I or a Seemax or what have you are comparably priced to lens offerings from other companies.  They're not more expensive.

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## stedel

> They're not more expensive.


They are for us:(. We can get a Physio360/Forte from Essilor or a Seiko Surmount/Junsui-AR from Plastic Plus for 50% less than what Nikon charges for an I/Digital/ICE. Maybe Nikon gives big discounts to their high volume customers, but we don't do enough business with them to get those. So unless Nikon is head and shoulders above the rest of the pack (and they clearly aren't) I see no reason for us to buy anything from them whatsoever.

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## edKENdance

Yikes.  Costs me less than an Ellipse with Forte.

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## Barry Santini

No name in optics resonates with consumers regarding quality as much as Nikon.

Period

B

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## stedel

Before I started working as a lab tech I certainly thought that Nikon lenses must be the best. I mean, they produce the best (or among the best) cameras in the world, right? From a customer's standpoint there is no reason that Nikon's well deserved reputation in camera optics shouldn't translate to a great reputation in lenses.

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## jpways

From that perspective it's amazing that no one has tried to license the Canon name, or Canon going into ophthalmic lenses, because of a similar (or in my opinion) better name recognition

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## edKENdance

What about Pentax?  Used to be what we used at LC back in the day.  Maybe still do?  For me personally if there's one sure fire way to kill a credible name brand is to associate it with Walmart.

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## OIC

> What about Pentax?  Used to be what we used at LC back in the day.  Maybe still do?  For me personally if there's one sure fire way to kill a credible name brand is to associate it with Walmart.


Now owned by Seiko.

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## Fezz

> Now owned by Seiko.



Which may be owned by Hoya.

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## OIC

> Costco in Canada has moved to their own lab production and dropped Essilor as a supplier.



They may have dropped Essilor as a LAB, but I can assure you that they have not dropped them as a (primary) lens supplier.

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## OIC

> Which may be owned by Hoya.


Yup. Sorry, forgot to update my scorecard. Tough to keep up with the acquisitions.

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## HindSight2020

> Yup. Sorry, forgot to update my scorecard. Tough to keep up with the acquisitions.


I believe Hoya only purchased the design patents thus far and not the entire Seiko company.  

As for selling, I promote and sell products based on quality and technology.  I never mention a brand by name and can easily land a decent average sale because of it.

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## edKENdance

These look kind of interesting.

http://nikon-lenswear.com/products/e...eries/digilife

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## Chris Ryser

*http://petapixel.com/2010/05/31/hoya...pany-failures/

*According to Hoya founder Shigeru Yamanakas grandson, Yutaka Yamanaka, Hoyas acquisition of Pentax may not have been the best business move. The younger Yamanaka said the $1 billion acquisition in 2007 was made mostly to expand Hoyas involvement in medical optics, but turned out to be overpriced. Yamanaka, a Hoya shareholder, went so far as to say it was one of Hoyas business failures which led to financial turbulence over the last three years until Pentax turned profitable

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## mike.elmes

join a buying group and get an instant 25% discount on the Nikon stuff....for us nikon has been superb, great products and VERY durable. The consumer lovers the brand too

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## HindSight2020

> join a buying group and get an instant 25% discount on the Nikon stuff....for us nikon has been superb, great products and VERY durable. The consumer lovers the brand too


Only 25%?  Heck, I'm getting 40% on other major brands.  And Nikon has the highest inflated list prince on the market.

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## optimensch

there will be more competition in lab/lens suppliers soon, I believe. 
I tried a couple of pairs of HD progressives from a Chinese factory a couple of years ago. They performed very well though the AR was a bit too yellow for my taste. My test subjects (staff in the store) like the lenses a lot. Only problem was logistics/shipping costs. For a small operator like me it was a bit daunting. Well this factory is relentless and they are coming to Canada next week to meet me and to drum up clients here. I am sure they are not here to waste time and have a shipping solution that makes sense.  
I will report back on how it goes...

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## HindSight2020

> there will be more competition in lab/lens suppliers soon, I believe. 
> I tried a couple of pairs of HD progressives from a Chinese factory a couple of years ago. They performed very well though the AR was a bit too yellow for my taste. My test subjects (staff in the store) like the lenses a lot. Only problem was logistics/shipping costs. For a small operator like me it was a bit daunting. Well this factory is relentless and they are coming to Canada next week to meet me and to drum up clients here. I am sure they are not here to waste time and have a shipping solution that makes sense.  
> I will report back on how it goes...


I have a supply/distribution network already in place and still get emails almost daily from the Asian companies.  You may be correct - however the only downfall is the shipping costs, logistics and lack of local support.  If they can put that piece in place - look out major companies.

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## lensguy

> I have a supply/distribution network already in place and still get emails almost daily from the Asian companies.  You may be correct - *however the only downfall is the shipping costs, logistics and lack of local support.  If they can put that piece in place - look out major companies.*


Dont you think if they built this they would be: A) "a mojor company" and b) not that far off of what you are paying today?

you are getting 40%. I know some are as high as 67%........

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## optimensch

Good point. But I am not sure there is an asian lab, all surfacing coating etc.. in china, shipped direct to opticals in Canada. There needs to be a way either UPS or some other courier could do a consolidated ship to canada for the lab and get these to your door for pretty cheap. I was dealing direct so the shipping was too high, but with a few clients, and consolidated ship, it should not be difficult. 
Pay the lab by paypal or some other online mechanism. The savings should be very significant.
I don't know if anyone is doing this right now on a wide scale. The ones who are don't seem to be passing on the savings to us little ECPs if they are, and a Chinese Lab could do so. We'll see.

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## lensguy

I know of a few that are doing exactly that.
They consolidate shipping to Canada from all over Asia and distribute from here. They save on labor, and I assume, declare little to no profit in Canada saving even more in taxes. They pass the savings on to you.

Every major lens supplier in Canada and the US is doing this.

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## OIC

Thanks for taking jobs away from Canadians. You don't make money buying lenses, you make money selling them. Do a better job of selling the best that you can buy, and you'll be much more successful than giving your money to the Chinese for cheap eyeglasses that can be made by your local, independent (non-Essilor, -Zeiss, -Hoya) laboratory. They are still out there. I say independent labs because when you do biz with the others, especially Essilor, there's a very good chance they are being made in Mexico or China and not across the street by Canadians.

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## optimensch

Respectfully, I disagree.
Besides, there is no way we could avoid using Nikon, Essilor, Hoya, Zeiss or the few good independents we use entirely. We're talking a % of purchases which could be directed to China.
It is important to adapt to the changes or you die on the vine. It's about having access to the widest range of products AND prices possible. Essilor sells branded and very good lenses to Costco which Costco sells to the public BELOW your COST. 
I am concerned about the jobs of Canadians, but I'm even more concerned about MY job.

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## OIC

Respectful disagreement is what's great about the forum, and I am always anxious to hear others' motivations about how they conduct their business. And you are right, it is important to adapt to changes, which is why I endorse the independent laboratory of your choice. You can stop feeding the beast that is Essilor (lenses, Transitions, equipment, FramesDirect.com, lab supplies, labs, sunglasses, etc. etc....) and develop, market, and enhance your own brands. How many of your patients/customers come in the door and ask for lenses by brand. Perhaps Transitions and Nikon, but not so much beyond that I'll bet. 

I'm curious to know why you want to do business with China and what products/services they offer you that make it so attractive over buying local, and what they are offering that it means saving your job.

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## optimensch

For clarity, i dont currently do lens business in china. I tried it and found it to be too much trouble due to logistics. But this same china supplier is coming to visit and im guessing they have a plan to make logistics and shipping more simple. Their product was good at the time. So well see what they are offering.  I think it would be useful for us to have access to good lenses at a lower price point in addition to (not instead of) the suppliers we use now.  The more access we have to global supply and pricing the better.

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## lensguy

I found myself almost obsessed with my cost of goods for a while. I think it was the idea that my big competitors (BBox, online, chains) were getting way better pricing, maybe they are? however after a period of time I concluded I have got good prices (I average about 30% off list) and was putting too much effort into still trying to save a few bucks.
I re channeled this effort into growing topline sales selling higher quality products (at higher cost of goods) and the bottom line looks way better now! Service levels are higher than they have ever been and training is happening on a regular basis.

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## lensguy

> Respectfully, I disagree.
> Besides, there is no way we could avoid using Nikon, Essilor, Hoya, Zeiss or the few good independents we use entirely. We're talking a % of purchases which could be directed to China.
> It is important to adapt to the changes or you die on the vine. It's about having access to the widest range of products AND prices possible._ Essilor sells branded and very good lenses to Costco which Costco sells to the public BELOW your COST._ 
> I am concerned about the jobs of Canadians, but I'm even more concerned about MY job.


I am not one to defend Essilor, however you should shop your Costco. No more Essilor (branded) product. They have moved to their own production and offer only "house branded" lenses and one A/R...

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## OIC

> I am not one to defend Essilor, however you should shop your Costco. No more Essilor (branded) product. They have moved to their own production and offer only "house branded" lenses and one A/R...


Without seeing the packaging how would you know it's not an Essilor lens? Unless you work there and know they aren't using Essilor lenses, you can't "shop" there and know what you're getting. Costco, as do others, can private label Essilor lenses. Don't assume since they aren't promoting Crizal or other brands that that isn't what they are using.

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## stedel

My understanding - from someone that worked there about 1.5 years ago - is that Costco uses Essilor lenses and coatings made up in their own centralized lab, and that they often tell customers they are "Crizal lenses", whatever that is suppose to mean. (On that note, I've had people come in and ask if we carried "real Crizal lenses", or if we just used the fake ones that only had a Criz coating on them... hard to answer that question succinctly;). If that's the understanding people are gaining from Essilor's Weather Channel ad blitz, then they need to adjust their marketing a wee bit).

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## optimensch

someone here said it already, given all the advertising essilor and others pump out, a surprisingly small number of clients ask for a lens by name. occasionally, but really it is a small number.
Clients are coming because you have a good reputation and hopefully to fit them and sell them the right product at the right price. We, the ECPs are the "brand", more than we think. Most of the time.

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## HindSight2020

> someone here said it already, given all the advertising essilor and others pump out, a surprisingly small number of clients ask for a lens by name. occasionally, but really it is a small number.
> Clients are coming because you have a good reputation and hopefully to fit them and sell them the right product at the right price. We, the ECPs are the "brand", more than we think. Most of the time.


+1.  Never sell yourself short.  Those big box and chain retailers can only land one type of consumer - the price driven one.  For the majority of consumers, they will pay a little more for expert, personalized service.

Let the giants fight it out for it shall take them 3-5 times the consumers profit to match your 1.  Now who's laughing?

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## Chris Ryser

> *For clarity, i dont currently do lens business in china. I tried it and found it to be too much trouble due to logistics. 
> 
> *


I have learned years ago that getting small parcels from China and other places in the far East is as inexpensive or even cheaper as sending UPS and Fedex in the USA and Canada. It does not work both ways but only FAR East to the American Continent. 

Check it out at: --------------> http://www.ems.com.cn/english.html

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## optimensch

so nice Chinese lady from an apparently large lab in the Shanghai area comes to visit the other day. She brings along samples and a price list for both conventional and digital progressives. Needless to say the prices are, shall we say, remarkable. Basic materials, cr, mr8, mr7 and a photochromic. They seem to really want to make inroads in North America....curious given the massive size of the domestic market over there....I mean, Montreal would not even count as a minor village in China....yet she gets on a plane to travel for 18 hours to get here....

If a small group of canadian ecps got together to buy from this lab (to mitigate shipping costs only, which amount to around $40 for a small box, enough to fit 10 pairs), the savings would be very significant. while i have not tried enough pairs to really know the quality, so far it is very good. 

This trend of "global sourcing" will continue to trickle down to smaller local operators and put the hurt on larger local distributors, I believe. That it has not already made even bigger inroads into optical shops, is really surprising. Nikon and Essilor have big production facilities here in Montreal.....as they do in numerous other places around North America. I highly doubt this will continue to make economic sense. We'll see.

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## HindSight2020

> so nice Chinese lady from an apparently large lab in the Shanghai area comes to visit the other day. She brings along samples and a price list for both conventional and digital progressives. Needless to say the prices are, shall we say, remarkable. Basic materials, cr, mr8, mr7 and a photochromic. They seem to really want to make inroads in North America....curious given the massive size of the domestic market over there....I mean, Montreal would not even count as a minor village in China....yet she gets on a plane to travel for 18 hours to get here....
> 
> If a small group of canadian ecps got together to buy from this lab (to mitigate shipping costs only, which amount to around $40 for a small box, enough to fit 10 pairs), the savings would be very significant. while i have not tried enough pairs to really know the quality, so far it is very good. 
> 
> This trend of "global sourcing" will continue to trickle down to smaller local operators and put the hurt on larger local distributors, I believe. That it has not already made even bigger inroads into optical shops, is really surprising. Nikon and Essilor have big production facilities here in Montreal.....as they do in numerous other places around North America. I highly doubt this will continue to make economic sense. We'll see.


PM me some basic PAL pricing both conventional and FF.  I bet I could meet or beat it and everything is sourced here in Canada with major brands.

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## Optical Guitar Guy

Nikon lenses in America are not Essilor designs.  If you get real Nikon lenses with real Nikon AR coatings, you are getting a unique product that prices out very comparably to all other branded digital progressives.

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## cockeyed

Nikon gets their lenses made in Thailand. At about the cost of xxxxx after getting shipped to Toronto. They used to make great lenses on site. But they were not concerned with quality but cheapest and maximum quantity.  Leaving the quality acceptance to the customer, and if they complain re-make them. 
Once Thailand was online and capable Nikon layed off 2 departments.  Quality was pretty terrible.  But it didn't seem to matter. 
They still got some lenses from Montreal but maybe 30% of their daily orders.
The people who made the decision to have the bulk of their production in Thailand were all Essilor employees.

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## Lab Insight

> Nikon gets their lenses made in Thailand. At about the cost of xxxx after getting shipped to Toronto. They used to make great lenses on site. But they were not concerned with quality but cheapest and maximum quantity.  Leaving the quality acceptance to the customer, and if they complain re-make them. 
> Once Thailand was online and capable Nikon layed off 2 departments.  Quality was pretty terrible.  But it didn't seem to matter. 
> They still got some lenses from Montreal but maybe 30% of their daily orders.
> The people who made the decision to have the bulk of their production in Thailand were all Essilor employees.


This is the norm - called global sourcing.  Essilor, Nikon, Hoya and many others outsource to their global affiliates overseas at a rate of about 70%.  They only produce their highly profitable branded lenses in their local labs in Dallas, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver which is about 30%.

There are many reasons why they do this but the main common goal is huge cost savings and to boost their profit margins.  Seems pretty logical to me.

I beg to differ on your quality comment as my experience with quality from the labs in Thailand is better than North America's.  In case you've been living under a rock for the last few years, Essilor owns a piece of pretty much everything including Nikon, Shamir and numerous independent banner labs.  And they're not about to stop anytime soon.

Essilor has the deepest pockets and is very diverse to keep investing where Hoya has almost no cash flow to do the same.

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## Chris Ryser

> *This is the norm - called global sourcing.  Essilor, Nikon, Hoya and many others outsource to their global affiliates overseas at a rate of about 70%.  They only produce their highly profitable branded lenses in their local labs in Dallas, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver which is about 30%.*



Lab Insight is right.............

Even their profitable lenses are made in Thailand as semi finished.

Thailand is todays largest lens manufacturing country.

Whether you buy your new glasses in Thailand and elsewhere, there is a fair chance that the optical lenses you wear, have been manufactured in Thailand. Thailand produces more than 20 % of the close to a billion optical lenses made each year. Besides local independent manufacturers, many foreign countries have factories located in Thailand. These include : Hoya Lens (Japan), Essilor Manufacturing (France), Rodenstock (Germany), Solarlens (Italy), Indo (Spain) and Transitions (U.S.A.). Local total production capacity is 200 million optical lenses.
A known local enterprise is Thai Optical Group, which produces optical lenses under its own brand names, and as an original-equipment-manufacturere (OEM) for other companies and brands. Thai Optical Group has an annual capacity at present of 27 million lenses.
Most of the raw material needed to produce optical lenses, has to be imported into the country, and has to be transported in refrigerated containers. The larger orders the country generates, creates lower costs per unit of production.

See the production graph by country:  =============>
http://www.thaiwebsites.com/opticallenses.asp

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## stedel

> These include : Hoya Lens (Japan), Essilor Manufacturing (France), Rodenstock (Germany), Solarlens (Italy), Indo (Spain) and Transitions (U.S.A.).


Isn't Transitions wholly owned by Essilor now?

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## Lab Insight

> Isn't Transitions wholly owned by Essilor now?


100% yes.

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## Quince

> Isn't Transitions wholly owned by Essilor now?


Except for Drivewear which is co-owned by Younger and Essilor as it is part of the Transitions line.

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## Klean

“Nikon Eyes” is an Essilor product.  They have paid for license to the name.  Nikon progressive lenses all have Varilux mates.  (ie, Nikon Compact is the same design as a Varilux Physio 360).  Think Trans Am vs Camero.  Same company, same product, different division.  What you don’t get with Nikon lenses; A.R. product choices, transition choices, etc.  

Yes, they do sell these at Walmart.  Zeiss lenses as well.  Zeiss markets their lenses under one name for private practices and another for the chains but always attaches the Zeiss header.  I think it is common practice with all lens manufacturers.  Hoya is even branding lens products for specific chains as we seen LensCrafters do with the Featherweight so many years ago.

Nikon lenses are NEVER Visionease lenses or Hoya lenses or anything other than an Essilor product.  I hope this clarifies for some of you.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Nikon lenses are NEVER Visionease lenses or Hoya lenses or anything other than an Essilor product.  I hope this clarifies for some of you.*



correct....................however they are all the same as made by another one.

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## D_Opt

But we don't have Nikon Eyes here in Canada though, do we? It seems wrong to think that Essilor and Nikon lenses are the essentially same with different names just bevause they have a 50-50 JV, but I might be wrong since I don't mainly deal with Essilor (they are pushing eyezen like crazy here).

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## Chris Ryser

> *
> But we don't have Nikon Eyes here in Canada though, do we? It seems wrong to think that Essilor and Nikon lenses are the essentially same with different names just bevause they have a 50-50 JV, but I might be wrong since I don't mainly deal with Essilor (they are pushing eyezen like crazy here).*



To make it short and sweet .................here is the link that proves the case:


https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...-Nikon-Essilor

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## seriously?

Who lens uses NS as the identifier?

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## Chris Ryser

*





Nikon Corporation, Japan and Essilor International, France, establish a joint research center in Japan
			
		

*


> February 12, 2009


*


see all of it, at :   

*http://www.nikon.com/news/2009/0212_01.htm

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## Chris Ryser

*They are now having a SILMO 2018 in Thailand this year.  :*


*About SILMO Bangkok 2018*Creating new opportunities, the first edition of SILMO Bangkok 2018 serves as the ideal gateway into ASEANs optical industry, bringing together over 4,000 professionals to explore the latest products, technologies and solutions on a regional stage. The inaugural show focuses on three guiding pillars :

A business and trade platform;A gathering for professionals to learn and network; andA must- attend event for the latest eyewear fashion.

source:    
https://silmobangkok.com/silmo-bangk...eyewear-market

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