# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Is "education" really the answer employers are looking for?

## Uilleann

*One writer's take.
*
Flame on!   :Hot:

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## cocoisland58

My boyfriend's son just left school with a masters and a thesis away from a PHD in mathmatics.  He can't find a job.  "Entry level" positions now require experience...go figure.

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## chip anderson

I heard a local radio personality say he decided to go to college so he wouldn't have to work for a living any more.  Perhaps this is the problem, too many people think they should be paid for having gotten an education as opposed to what they can do with it after they have it.
No reason the number of letters after your name should exempt one from productivity.

Chip

There is the old joke about the employer who was interviewing a young person for a job.  After the interview the employer said: "OK kid you got the job."
The applicant said:  "What would you like for me to do first?"
The employer replied: "Go sweep out the back room."
The applicant replied: "But I'm a college graduate!"
The employer said:  "OK I'll show you how."

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## AustinEyewear

I'm pretty tired of hearing how expensive school is and I can't get a job out of college.  Heres a few suggestions:

1. Ditch the car 
2. Live in the dorms
3. eat the school meals
4. don't take spring break
5. finish in four years like us old fogeys used to do

And the number one thing.  Get a degree that people actually want to hire for !!

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## Uilleann

> ...And the number one thing.  Get a degree that people actually want to hire for !!


So _not_ a degree in opticianry then?  ;)

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## Java99

> My boyfriend's son just left school with a masters and a thesis away from a PHD in mathmatics.  He can't find a job.  "Entry level" positions now require experience...go figure.


My cousin is in the same boat, just a thesis away from her PhD in Psychology.  She was hired by some idiot to manage the night shift of a nursing home.  She lasted three days before the staff and patients both were eating her alive.  She's now making crafts and quilts to sell on Etsy and for some unknown reason, not working on her thesis and cannot get a job that "she" feels "befits" her level of education.  Personally, I think it's a shame for someone to be so educated and not use that education, but I have very little patience for her not taking jobs that she doesn't think are good enough.  Which may be exactly why education may not matter in today's market as much as experience.  It's what you can do with what you know, not just what you know.

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## price

Hi AustinEyewear,
I agree. 

Well Uilleann,
How well do you communicate with your customers that might have a PHD to a high school education? This takes education and a degree would help your practice.

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## Jacqui

I have a Doctor of Nursing degree, I make lenses. Everyone tells me I'm over qualified for any of the nursing positions that I've applied for.

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## pseudonym

> So _not_ a degree in opticianry then?  ;)


It's not the degree, it's what you do with it. My BA got me nothing. Two years of optician school got me a job before I even took my boards. Mind you, this is a licensed state. Coulda had something to do with it.

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## obxeyeguy

My son at one point wanted to follow me in this business, and I discouraged him, for good reason.  We in fact have no set standards for what most of us do, some better than others, but just the same, but no real path.  My son graduates this Friday with a degree in accounting, an adult student who I am very proud of, and has enrolled in the masters, which I understand is mandatory to the CPA that he is after.  I am so proud, as I don't think his future would be as bright as ours is as opticians. We kill ourselves daily.

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## Judy Canty

My son-in-law completed his PhD in Chemistry 4 years ago, had multiple offers upon graduation.  My daughter completed her law degree 5 years ago, multiple offers there as well. He's been promoted twice, she's recently taken a new position closer to home.  Go figure.

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## Chris Ryser

*

Question: Is "education" really the answer employers are looking for?*


*Before you can answer above question properly it should be defined and refined to " what education" and what "employers" actually means.*

If not, you get answers as the ones above, totally unrelated to the optical professions. 

I feel that the author of this thread is trying to start another hornets nest to explode into a never ending discussion on education as we have seen on other recent threads on this board.

We are all aware that certain levels of education are a must in every field of work on this planet. The better it is in your own field the better you will be eventually be positioned. That is a fact that has been known forever. Look at the system in Europe.

However in a capitalistic area it does not always apply, as state regulators tend to lean towards capitalistic forces against educated ones when it comes to regulating.
The North American Continent, mainly the USA and also Canada to a certain point always had to deal with the huge political influence by the large corporations like AO and B&L in the old days, and also Imperial Optical in Canada, and lately with their newer versions of the same kind European and Asian based monster corporations.

These corporations have for the last few years started to educate the consumer directly by their product advertising, while the ones that operate direct retail ventures across the world don't give a hoot about education.

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## idispense

In October of 2010 they launched the product as an app. The business never made any money and it still don't make no money. The 13 owners sold her out to Facebook a few days ago fer $ 1 billion dollars . *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instagram* 

Anybody that can take nothing and turn it into a company that makes nothing but sell it fer a cool billion in less time than some real estate agents can sell yer house, well in my book "That's the value of education"

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## obxeyeguy

> Anybody that can take nothing and turn it into a company that makes nothing but sell it fer a cool billion in less time than some real estate agents can sell yer house, well in my book "That's the value of education"


Marchon??

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## optilady1

Whether we are talking about opticianry or any other career choice, the problem isn't the education, and it isn't those that hire.  It's the new entitlement attitude that the generations x, y, z and the like have.  None of our parents where too proud to start at the bottom and work their way up.  It was assumed that having a college degree opened the door to a job, it didn't make you the smartest or highest paid the first day on the job.  

My father's take on a college degree is this:  Having a degree does nothing except tell an employer that you are teachable, possibly trainable.

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## Diane

> Whether we are talking about opticianry or any other career choice, the problem isn't the education, and it isn't those that hire. It's the new entitlement attitude that the generations x, y, z and the like have. None of our parents where too proud to start at the bottom and work their way up. It was assumed that having a college degree opened the door to a job, it didn't make you the smartest or highest paid the first day on the job. 
> 
> My father's take on a college degree is this: Having a degree does nothing except tell an employer that you are teachable, possibly trainable.


I agree with statement, wholeheartedly.  It sends a message to the prospective employer, but also must be evident in the applicant/graduate.

Diane

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## CCGREEN

> I'm pretty tired of hearing how expensive school is and I can't get a job out of college. Heres a few suggestions:
> 
> 1. Ditch the car 
> 2. Live in the dorms
> 3. eat the school meals
> 4. don't take spring break
> 5. finish in four years like us old fogeys used to do
> 
> And the number one thing. Get a degree that people actually want to hire for !!


So get the degree. But if you still cant do the damn work I don't want you working for me.
Skip the degree and go hands on learn the trade and you have a job with me.
Now go hands on learn the job, be awsome at it, get the degree and I will then be glad to take you in as a vested associate in the business that I have worked hard to establish.

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## idispense

,,

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## CCGREEN

Wow this one confuses me. "Doctor of Nursing degree" Im not saying there is no such thing if anybody should know Jacqui should. I am the first to admit that I dont.

So are you a Dr or a Nurse?
Do we address you as Dr Jacqui or Nurse Jacqui?
After all these years in optical, (I see your join date to Optiboard is 2003) with a degree of higher education then I assume you comfort zone is in Optical Wholesale Lab not haveing to deal with patients or the public in general?

My suggestion to being told you are over qualified is not to tell them so much. Hold back information so you can get your foot in the door, show them you can do the job and more and then start to slowly devluge your education.

Please do not think that I am doubting or making fun of you because I am not. I just have never heard of your title. Now I have to go looking and educate myself.

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## optilady1

> So get the degree. But if you still cant do the damn work I don't want you working for me.
> Skip the degree and go hands on learn the trade and you have a job with me.
> Now go hands on learn the job, be awsome at it, get the degree and I will then be glad to take you in as a vested associate in the business that I have worked hard to establish.


Why do you assume opticians with a degree won't be able to do the work?  We can all agree that a percentage of people who graduate from any field will in fact be lousy at their chosen degree field, but I don't get the negativety towards opticians with a degree.  I've never heard of a medical practice who brands a new doctor as no good and instead welcomes with open arms an apprentice doctor.

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## wmcdonald

> Wow this one confuses me. "Doctor of Nursing degree" Im not saying there is no such thing if anybody should know Jacqui should. I am the first to admit that I dont.
> 
> So are you a Dr or a Nurse?
> Do we address you as Dr Jacqui or Nurse Jacqui?
> After all these years in optical, (I see your join date to Optiboard is 2003) with a degree of higher education then I assume you comfort zone is in Optical Wholesale Lab not haveing to deal with patients or the public in general?
> 
> My suggestion to being told you are over qualified is not to tell them so much. Hold back information so you can get your foot in the door, show them you can do the job and more and then start to slowly devluge your education.
> 
> Please do not think that I am doubting or making fun of you because I am not. I just have never heard of your title. Now I have to go looking and educate myself.


The degree, Doctor of Nursing Science, or Nursing Practice is very well known. I am surprised you are unaware, since you are so obviously so well versed in the field of education! It is primarily for Nurse Educators, and is a prime example of a profession moving itself forward, vesus those in Opticianry who continue to hold the field back, like those who do not support education.

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## Jacqui

> Wow this one confuses me. "Doctor of Nursing degree" Im not saying there is no such thing if anybody should know Jacqui should. I am the first to admit that I dont.
> 
> So are you a Dr or a Nurse?


Doctor is an academic degree, it has nothing to do with your job title. Most nursing instructors and Nurse Practitioners have a Doctor of Nursing or a Phd. in Nursing (both are the same). 




> Do we address you as Dr Jacqui or Nurse Jacqui?


Either, although Doctor sounds nicer  :Smile:  In emergencies I answer to almost anything.





> After all these years in optical, (I see your join date to Optiboard is 2003) with a degree of higher education then I assume you comfort zone is in Optical Wholesale Lab not haveing to deal with patients or the public in general?
> 
> My suggestion to being told you are over qualified is not to tell them so much. Hold back information so you can get your foot in the door, show them you can do the job and more and then start to slowly devluge your education.
> 
> Please do not think that I am doubting or making fun of you because I am not. I just have never heard of your title. Now I have to go looking and educate myself.


I do work as an on-call Midwife at a local hospital, so my foot is in the door. After 43 years in the optical business, I find that I like making things the most. I'll never give up my patients whether at the free clinics or during disasters or at the hospital.

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## Jacqui

> The degree, Doctor of Nursing Science, or Nursing Practice is very well known. I am surprised you are unaware, since you are so obviuosly so well versed in the field of education! It is primarily for Nurse Educators, and is a prime example of a profession moving itself forward, vesus those in Opticianry who continue to hold the field back, like those who do not support education.


Thank you  :Smile:

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## EyeManFla

Unless you are "Dr. J", who cares. I'm all for education, but too many people in our profession have degenerated into a game of "My CV is bigger than your CV".

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## wmcdonald

> Unless you are "Dr. J", who cares. I'm all for education, but too many people in our profession have degenerated into a game of "My CV is bigger than your CV".


That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that the basic Optician in this country can do little more than take a PD and measure a seg height. We must improve that situation and they way to accomplish that goal is to require SOME KIND of training and education that is at least similar around the country. We can be so much more, and if those who entered the field with little to no effort do not like that, let them move to another easy job. We have to get better to remain relevant........if we still are relevant in this industry. I will be glad to fuurther explain my position, and you are welcome to come see me and we'll chat. You are close by, and I would welcome the opportunity. A big CV is not the problem. It is the obvious jealousy from those who do not have one at all (and do not know what it is) that holds  us back. Come see me soon!

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## MakeOptics

> Well simply have to agree to disagree on the value of higher education.  I believe strongly that education is the foundation of a productive economy.  Certainly the lack of or denial of education has been and will always be the tool used to deny the basic rights of any group of people.  We have only to look at our own past.  I remember separate but equal.  Ill hazard a guess that you are not old enough to appreciate the hard won right to a decent education. 
> As regards the profession of Opticianry, the lack of post-secondary education has worked to keep Opticians at the bottom of the ophthalmic food chain.  Certainly, there are exceptions to this fate, but they are just that, exceptions rather than the rule. Opticians will continue to occupy the bottom floor in the optical community as long as they allow other professionals to define who they are and the limits of their scope of practice.  After a long and proud history, Opticians have ceded their professional position to others who have had the foresight and commitment to further their own educational and legislative agendas. I challenge any one to identify a profession whose majority so proudly boasts of their lack of education and their disdain for professional regulation. 
> The writer of the original Huffington Post article, the one that started this lengthy and often ridiculous thread, is himself a college graduate and has a job that we could assume is fairly well-paying.  His advice then is disingenuous.  College degrees may not guarantee employment, but they will open doors to opportunities that the lack of said degrees cannot.
> True professionals appreciate and will reward education, perhaps not with the overblown salaries of the recent past, but certainly at a consistently higher level than a simple high school diploma will demand.
> Ask yourself, is the voice that tells you that your college degree has no value, giving you good advice or protecting his or her own position at your expense?
> 
> Peace out!


House of cards.  Your building should be built on a solid foundation.  I agree with your stance on education but if your looking at blaming other professionals, your blind in an industry that provides sight.  It was opticians that prevented licensing and education in many of the states in years past.  Currently if you look at this thread as an example it is opticians again who are arguing about the merits.  

To be perfectly honest in the past when opticians had the opportunity to license many if not all the states it was the business owners that did not want wages to go higher.  By the time they saw the error in their ways it was too late, corporate opticals and optometry had found a way to carve out a bigger piece of the pie for themselves and so gone were the golden days of dispensing as the old timers tell it.

Since the industry is mature and has had no real incidence of mass damages or injuries making changes to the industry now is going to be an impossible task.  One I don't believe that any of the current organizations are capable or even willing to take on.

If these threads about education and licensure are looked at from a statistical standpoint they are the most viewed, posted, and argued over threads.  So the saying holds true your either going to be be famous, infamous, or forgotten.  This topic is infamous because every optical professional has an opinion on the topic.  If you look at the trade magazines every few years they capitalize on the subject; meetings, summits, white papers, and new organizations.

Lets stop arguing over the menial crap that no one is going to change and focus on the exploitation of a mature industry.  If you are an optician at this point in your career, if you are younger then 30 get out now.  If you are older than 30 focus on the business aspect of the industry and run a lean mean operation.  Learning to be an optician has been decided by the public and they prefer a short stint in LC academy over a real education.  Now this last paragraph is gonna seem like it contradicts the first paragraph where I say I agree with education.  Here's the rub, get a degree in accounting, get an MBA, get anything that would compliment your opticianry skills, it's called hedging your bet.  If this profession ever wises up and changes it's course they'll grandfather you in, if they don't at least you can take your degree to another field when the ship goes down in flames.

Forget about being a better optician, be a better you.

For those that want to argue put your money where your mouth is, I foresee in the next 10 years one to two less licensed states, with a few others on the brink.  Ulliean seems to be the only one with eye's wide open to that fact and honestly I don't think the higher education argument he is defending is wrong especially in this industry.  Think about it every time someone mentions education they point to another profession, not opticianry.

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## chip anderson

Actually the state licenseing was origionally and still blocked by O.D.'s    The chains later joined the O.D's in this.
The opticians were never strong enough to get the votes in the legislature and never willing to shell out enough
from thier own pockets to buy the legislative voted (even back in the '60's when legislators were cheap).

Chip

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## AustinEyewear

> Well simply have to a  I believe strongly that education is the foundation of a productive economy.


  The right education.  We have plenty of out of work underwater basket weavers already.




> As regards the profession of Opticianry, the lack of post-secondary education has worked to keep Opticians at the bottom of the ophthalmic food chain.


Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but where else would they be located?  Above optometrists?

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## golfnut

My son had to have more FORMAL education to be a barber than I did to be a Licensed Optician! That's a shame...

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## AustinEyewear

> My son had to have more FORMAL education to be a barber than I did to be a Licensed Optician! That's a shame...


Really? Please do elaborate...

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## Johns

> Really? Please do elaborate...


In most states...barbers are licensed.

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## optical24/7

> In most states...barbers are licensed.


Even Texas, requires schooling. (We license dog trimmers too, but not opticians..)

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## golfnut

He graduated from OSU Barber College. There is no Optician school here in Ohio though? I guess the "Hair Dr's" don't try and block their professional advancement!!:)

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## AustinEyewear

> He graduated from OSU Barber College. There is no Optician school here in Ohio though? I guess the "Hair Dr's" don't try and block their professional advancement!!:)


The hair biz looks to be a bit of a racket and a tax on barbers to me.  Regardless, they are not working under the supervision of someone called a doctor, so there is a pretty big distinction here.

As long as you can purchase glasses over the internet, why would there ever be a need for a licensed optician?  Got an Rx? Then you can by-pass the optician all together.....

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## Chris Ryser

> *As long as you can purchase glasses over the internet, why would there ever be a need for a licensed optician? Got an Rx? Then you can by-pass the optician all together.....
> *



.............maybe you should also be aware that many or most of these on-line optical are technically run by probably educated  opticians. "Coastal" advertised a couple of years ago that their service is run by an ex large optical corporation executive. Corporation owned "Frames Direct" is still under the direction of 2 optometrists.

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## Java99

> The hair biz looks to be a bit of a racket and a tax on barbers to me.  Regardless, they are not working under the supervision of someone called a doctor, so there is a pretty big distinction here.
> 
> As long as you can purchase glasses over the internet, why would there ever be a need for a licensed optician?  Got an Rx? Then you can by-pass the optician all together.....


Not all opticians work for, with or under doctors :)

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## EyeManFla

I didn't for the first 20 years. Unfortunately, some states make it very difficult for the independent optician. And now with MDs owning dispensories, it makes it just that more difficult.



> Not all opticians work for, with or under doctors :)

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## optilady1

I wonder how many teachers, doctors, lawyers, hair dressers, nail technicians, computer programmers, pharmacists, therapists, dieticians, nurses, CPA's, engineers, mortitians, vetrinarians, cops, fire fighters, etc... would laugh their butts off knowing that another profession was debating whether education was necessary or not.  

Why are we even debating this?   McDonald's has their own university.

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## chip anderson

Of course remember that the requirements for "teachers" made it impossible for Bill Gates to teach a course on computers.   Guess he jus' doan know nuff bout 'em and needs more preparation.

Chip

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## AustinEyewear

> I wonder how many teachers, doctors, lawyers, hair dressers, nail technicians, computer programmers, pharmacists, therapists, dieticians, nurses, CPA's, engineers, mortitians, vetrinarians, cops, fire fighters, etc... would laugh their butts off knowing that another profession was debating whether education was necessary or not.  
> 
> Why are we even debating this?   McDonald's has their own university.


We gotta debate something.  How about lets debate your choice of listed order of professions optilady  :Smile:   If we think about this hard enough, I think we can come up subliminal reasoning to your order  :Smile:

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## Uilleann

> ...Why are we even debating this?   McDonald's has their own university.


They're more highly educated than most of us knew, and yet the pummeling that the "McTician" receives here is second to none.   :Tongue:  :Wink:  :Rolleyes: 

And for an example, there are a large (and growing) number of pharmacists and soon-to-be-pharm-grads who can't find any work.  Their education isn't helping them land the careers they were hoping for.  The schools are sitting pretty of course, and keep raising their tuition every year.

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## Johns

> And for an example, there are a large (and growing) number of pharmacists and soon-to-be-pharm-grads who can't find any work.  Their education isn't helping them land the careers they were hoping for.


That's a simple case of supply and demand.

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## AustinEyewear

> They're more highly educated than most of us knew, and yet the pummeling that the "McTician" receives here is second to none.  
> 
> And for an example, there are a large (and growing) number of pharmacists and soon-to-be-pharm-grads who can't find any work.  Their education isn't helping them land the careers they were hoping for.  The schools are sitting pretty of course, and keep raising their tuition every year.


same thing happening in optometry field.  that is why opticians should quit fighting the uphill battle and just go to optometry school.

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## Uilleann

> same thing happening in optometry field.  that is why opticians should quit fighting the uphill battle and just go to optometry school.


Certainly sounds reasonable...and yet that field is becoming hyper-saturated with new grads as well, and ophthalmology isn't far behind that in speaking with many of our local docs here.

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## chip anderson

Yes but the ophthalmologist have solved the problem.  Now we have super sub-specialist.  You got Oculo-Plastics, you got pediatric ophthalmologist, you got retinal specialist, you got refractive surgeons, and probably a half dozed things I haven't named that either are on the horizion or coming soon.
You can get a single patient in the office with a dozen Ophthalmologist sub-specialist and share him for each of the subspeciallties.   If that doesn't work you can always sell him some super zoomo glasses.   Not to mention that a "general eye exam" doesn't even seem to cover what an eye exam has traditionally been.
It ain't like the old days when one doctor, one nurse/assistant and  a receptionist constituted an eye specialist office.

Chip

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## Uilleann

> That's a simple case of supply and demand.


And so is the case of formally "educated" opticians.  The public doesn't demand it, so where is the money going to come from to pay for all that expensive education to do what the public feels we _already_ charge to much to do right now?

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## Johns

> And so is the case of formally "educated" opticians.  The public doesn't demand it, so where is the money going to come from to pay for all that expensive education to do what the public feels we _already_ charge to much to do right now?


When the market is flooded people purporting to be opticians, it does nothing but drive the wages down.  The money is already there, it's just being given too many uneducated people.

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## AustinEyewear

> When the market is flooded people purporting to be opticians, it does nothing but dive the wages down.  The money is already there, it's just being given too many uneducated people.


This is where I think most people that strongly advocate big, long, expensive education for opticians. The money is not there.  O.D.s are making less than ever and it is getting worse.  Online sales are not going to help.  Make sure the education is not too expensive that the optician can't payback the loans - that should be a big priority, I don't see salaries going sky high for the average optician. Too many struggling optical s.  It would be very educational to hear numbers from optician owners concerning what they are paying opticians that work for them.

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## Johns

> This is where I think most people that strongly advocate big, long, expensive education for opticians. The money is not there.  O.D.s are making less than ever and it is getting worse.  Online sales are not going to help.  Make sure the education is not too expensive that the optician can't payback the loans - that should be a big priority, I don't see salaries going sky high for the average optician. Too many struggling optical s.  It would be very educational to hear numbers from optician owners concerning what they are paying opticians that work for them.


I guess it all depends on what your definition of "big, long, and expensive" is.  When I told some optical friends I was going to go to school to become an optician, many laughed and told me to apprentice.  It was an option. Instead, I took 2 years and spent a whopping $1800 for a big fancy ivy league optical degree. (Maybe not "Ivy League" but Dr. Norm Ross was my instructor, and he wasn't teaching at Yale, so I went to where he was.)

It's a stinking two year degree!  Not even worth mentioning, (and trust me, I don't mention it very often).  I've learned much more since I'm out of school, but the formal education helped me understand what I was learning, and the theory behind it. And yes, I was offered more money, right out of school, than those of my peers that had apprenticed.

This is not the place  discuss specifics of wages, but I have quite a few employees, and I can honestly say that those with formal educations are paid more than those without.  They are not paid more because of the degree, but because they just happen to be the opticians that have quickly worked their way into managerial and other positions that add value to my practice.

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## tmorse

> Make sure the education is not too expensive that the optician can't payback the loans


Our Canadian 6-month Optician/Contact Lens Fitter program won't put anyone in the poor house, and its income tax-deducible too. Should get about 25-30% tuition back the following year as deduction.

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## yeval

An education

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## AustinEyewear

> I guess it all depends on what your definition of "big, long, and expensive" is.  When I told some optical friends I was going to go to school to become an optician, many laughed and told me to apprentice.  It was an option. Instead, I took 2 years and spent a whopping $1800 for a big fancy ivy league optical degree.


That is a pretty good price, where did you attend?  The places I've  checked are quite a bit more than that.  In fact, your price sounds almost too good to be true!  Edit:  Never mind,  I found the school.  Will look at it closer.  Do they have an online version?

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## Chris Ryser

America has reversed into a pre-historic phase of the optical dispensing profession. This thread has itself re-hashed to the stage that it should be handed over to an "educated" funeral director for a proper disposal, because it has nowhere to go anymore.

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## Judy Canty

> America has reversed into a pre-historic phase of the optical dispensing profession. This thread has itself re-hashed to the stage that it should be handed over to an "educated" funeral director for a proper disposal, because it has nowhere to go anymore.


Where's the LIKE button???

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## Jacqui

> Where's the LIKE button???


I agree  :Smile:

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