# Optical Forums > Canadian Discussion Forum >  Why do Independants still support Essilor?

## qualitylenses

I am still amazed when I speak with my colleagues as to how many still purchase from Essilor. Do they not realize that Essilor/Nikon is their major competitor????? Besides Coastal, there is Walmart and Costco.Why should I give money every month to a company that is trying to take away my patients  For years I have only supported an independent lab. . I receive great prices, service quality and designs.

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## coupe

You would not believe the number of Canada accounts that Big has. Some of the most important companies in Canada do business with them. Many of the Optiboarders who have accounts with them...read these comments....and still shovel money to them. The big question is why. Is it the old National Optical system of equipment for lab work. Is it guarenteed lab orders for preferential pricing....is it something else.

Why would we deal with M now that they have an agreement with FYI.  Face it, the little independents ar being squeezed out by the large chain store powers. The indy 10-15 jobs a week VS a chain store group of hundreds of orders per DAY says it all.

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## edKENdance

We're an independent and we're new (6 months on the 24th) and we chose not to use Lux or E or M or S or buying groups.  It's been pretty wonderful.  Had only one person ask if we used Crizal coatings.  It's not like they were brand loyal to E but it was the only one they had heard of.  As to why a lot of places still use these companies I personally can't think of one good reason.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I am still amazed when I speak with my colleagues as to how many still purchase from Essilor. Do they not realize that Essilor/Nikon is their major competitor????? Besides Coastal, there is Walmart and Costco.Why should I give money every month to a company that is trying to take away my patients 
> *


Essilor is today the most aggressive optical corporation. Already 50 years ago they would not take one step without calculating to the point if they could take the step and at what risk. They only employ top rated people in important positions.

Their advertising department is a scientific operation where every impact is studied and calculated before going public. 

They have realized that if they can sell directly to the public they can multiply their profits, which is better than act just as a distributor  and wholesaler to the optical retail trade. So far they have proven this point by now having over 14 on-line websites in the optical retail business.

The public is now asking to get Essilor products due to its public advertising and your colleagues find it easier to just supply it, than to convince customers of something similar made by somebody else. 

What retailers do not realize is that on-line glasses are not a finished, 
checked and adjusted product. More than often the optometrist or optician is asked to do that job for the the consumer at little or no charge.

Opticians and Optometrists will have to change their retailing habits from their gross profit included in their selling price to a competitive one and charge separately for the services they provide.

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## optimensch

Independents can access great products at much better prices than what the cartel offers locally. The web cuts both ways, it empowers consumers on one hand, but enables small independents to access globally too. 

E seems to be doing fine without my business (their stock price is very high) and I am doing fine without their products (so are my clients). 

Despite our very small size, I feel we have plenty of buying power and compete very well against big box and the internets. We bundle, we offer a strategic array of products/services and price-points to try to satisfy the widest audience possible.

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## HindSight2020

> Essilor is today the most aggressive optical corporation. Already 50 years ago they would not take one step without calculating to the point if they could take the step and at what risk. They only employ top rated people in important positions.
> 
> Their advertising department is a scientific operation where every impact is studied and calculated before going public. 
> 
> They have realized that if they can sell directly to the public they can multiply their profits, which is better than act just as a distributor and wholesaler to the optical retail trade. So far they have proven this point by now having over 14 on-line websites in the optical retail business.
> 
> The public is now asking to get Essilor products due to its public advertising and your colleagues find it easier to just supply it, than to convince customers of something similar made by somebody else. 
> 
> What retailers do not realize is that on-line glasses are not a finished, 
> ...


Good post Chris.  To add my two cents;

Like them or not, they are a corporation with a crystal clear view of their business plan and direction in the marketplace to maximize the return for their shareholders.  The old saying 'change is inevitable' couldn't be more true.

The issue that some independents have (the ones that complain) is they've never kept pace with the times, never aligned with any major suppliers nor ever spent a single dollar with a professional consultant to evaluate their practice to ensure they're doing things efficiently, cost effectively, while planning for the future.

Then one day you wake up and realize you have lost years and vast marketshare and now continue to struggle daily to make ends meet.  Doing the same things day in and day out and thinking you will keep pace or stay ahead of the curve is utter insanity.

Gotta spend money to make money. It's a never ending process to stay alive and thrive in any industry.

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## lensguy

^^^^^We need a like button^^^^^

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## Chris Ryser

*I found this following article on the web and would like to say that these types of independent publications are becoming more popular and should make opticians think about the future of their profession.
*------------------------------------------------------
Home » Best of, Lifehack & GTD
*
How to Buy Quality Eye Glasses Online & Save Hundreds*

*Last updated by G.E. Miller on November 25, 2014*


*How to Buy Glasses Online*

My employer has a rather generous vision plan that covers $155 towards new eyeglass frames and 100% of the lenses through insurance provider VSP. With the new insurance, I was thinking I might actually be able to get away with simply paying the co-pay of $25. I was so excited! I may actually get to try on some glasses, in person, and see what they’d look like on my face. Wow, what a privilege!

My excitement quickly faded before my appointment as I started trying on glasses and looking at the little price tags on each of them. $300, $350, $400… things were not looking good. 

Sure, there were a few cheap, outdated frames that I could get for around $200, but the quality of these frames were not even close to being as good as the quality of the frameless memory titanium, anti-reflective coated glasses that I had purchased online about 3 years earlier for under $40. Equivalent glasses were actually 10 times more at the local optometrist!


*What You’ll Need to Buy Glasses Online*

If you’re running into the same issues (and you will when you visit your local optometrist), here’s how you can go about buying your glasses online:
*1. You’ll Need your Eyeglass Prescription*

If your old eyeglass prescription is still bring clear vision in your present lenses, then call up your optometrist to get your prescription. Note that you will not be able to use a contact lens prescription (the two are different). If your prescription is outdated, then you will have to go to an optometrist to get a new one. General eye exams are usually covered by your vision insurance, if you have one. Check with your vision insurance provider to be certain.


*2. You’ll Need your Pupillary Distance*

Pupillary Distance (PD) is the distance between your pupils, usually measured in millimeters. Pupillary distance generally falls between 54 and 68 mm. Optometrists will usually take this measurement during your exam, but if they don’t, then you can measure the distance yourself with a mirror and a ruler.
Most optometrists will not write this number on your prescription, because they know that it gives you the ability to shop online. Ask them to write this number in, if they haven’t.
The image below represents an example of a pupillary distance of 62mm.




*3. Be Careful of Add-Ons*

Eyeglass retailers online will often suck you in with extremely low advertised prices (i.e. ‘Complete set of glasses for only $9!’, however they have add-ons that really crank up the price – anti-reflective coating, anti-scratch, poly-carbonate lens, etc.
The best thing to do is to figure out exactly what you want, and then find out what 3 or 4 different online retailers would sell for that exact same model, so that you are comparing apples to apples. For instance, if you know you want a memory titanium frame with a slight tint and anti-reflective coating then shop around for that exact same pair elsewhere. Some include the add-ons and others don’t, so go with the final price, not the advertised price that gets you in.


*4. Shopping for Glasses Online? You Need to Really Look Around for the Best Deal!
*

When shopping for glasses, don’t worry about the brand. A pair that I purchased under a generic brand was much better than any of the designer comparables that I saw at the optometrist. There are a few retailers that seem to have extremely competitive prices, that I’d recommend comparing to the others:

Zenxxxxptical.com (my personal favorite)FraxxxxDirect.comGlaxxxxsUSA.comEyxxxxuyDirect.com39doxxxllarglasses.com
*Buying Glasses Discussion:*


Have you bought glasses online? Share your story and tips.If you’re afraid to buy glasses online, why?Where did you find the best pair of cheap glasses?



see all of it:  ------>  http://20somethingfinance.com/how-to...save-hundreds/

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## coupe

_ #1  _ _It is a unfair fight_. Onliners have the ability to sell world wide under none or very few restrictions, while licenced ECP's are handcuffed by regulatory rulings that prohibit online sales.  Even using virtual try on...Pd / seg height image measureing...on your website does not allow you to sell online. You must meet the client face-to-face and make the frame adjustments. YET as Chris pointed out 80 % of eyeglasses are miss fitted. Where is the relationship between face-to-face with a client and not seeing him again for 3 years. All the while his glasses are 80% mis-adjusted. 

 # 2     BC is de-regulated....about 1/2 of the US states are non-licensed....eyeglass onliners multiply daily....BigE /CC beats the Quebec Order against onliners....
and on and on. _It's coming apart at the seams folks and the big corps are making it happen._ 

# 3     Yes, Big E does not care about my not buying from them. They are making hand over fist profits everywhere else, so that acutally I am more of a *PROBLEM* for them than an adavntage. 

 # 4   And truly, explain to me the difference between and $1800.00 pair of Prada  (injected moulded frames) eyeglasses with 1.67 / trans / Seiko FF Hd Surmount / Oleophobic AR coating (bought at an ECP office)  and  my pair at  $ 550.00 with a generic plastic acetate frame ...1.67 / trans / Comfort FF HD / with ETC-AR coating. This is an actual case that came to my office. Her Prada frame temples had all blistered at the back of her ear. The ECP said it was caused by her hair dye and no guarantee ($300.00 for new temples) . Mine fully guarenteed for one year. She asked me for a quote on a new pair and was devestated that she had paid so much.  

This type of issue #4 is what is causing the public to look upon ECP's a legal thieves. They see high prices in our stores, low prices online. They see TV/newspaper/magazine/internet articles that suggest...NO PUSH ...people to go online for their eyeglasses. 

Are we the thieves and the onliners the reality.

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## HindSight2020

> _ #1_ _It is a unfair fight_. Onliners have the ability to sell world wide under none or very few restrictions, while licenced ECP's are handcuffed by regulatory rulings that prohibit online sales. Even using virtual try on...Pd / seg height image measureing...on your website does not allow you to sell online. You must meet the client face-to-face and make the frame adjustments. YET as Chris pointed out 80 % of eyeglasses are miss fitted. Where is the relationship between face-to-face with a client and not seeing him again for 3 years. All the while his glasses are 80% mis-adjusted. 
> 
> # 2 BC is de-regulated....about 1/2 of the US states are non-licensed....eyeglass onliners multiply daily....BigE /CC beats the Quebec Order against onliners....
> and on and on. _It's coming apart at the seams folks and the big corps are making it happen._ 
> 
> # 3 Yes, Big E does not care about my not buying from them. They are making hand over fist profits everywhere else, so that acutally I am more of a *PROBLEM* for them than an adavntage. 
> 
> # 4 And truly, explain to me the difference between and $1800.00 pair of Prada (injected moulded frames) eyeglasses with 1.67 / trans / Seiko FF Hd Surmount / Oleophobic AR coating (bought at an ECP office) and my pair at $ 550.00 with a generic plastic acetate frame ...1.67 / trans / Comfort FF HD / with ETC-AR coating. This is an actual case that came to my office. Her Prada frame temples had all blistered at the back of her ear. The ECP said it was caused by her hair dye and no guarantee ($300.00 for new temples) . Mine fully guarenteed for one year. She asked me for a quote on a new pair and was devestated that she had paid so much. 
> 
> ...


It is very unfair but nothing will change. It's much easier to adapt to the reality of this and make the necessary changes in house then to wait for the unfortunate results since the colleges and associations will never do anything about it.

A simple solution is to have two price lists in house - one with full warranty and service included, the other with no warranty and no follow up service priced less than the other one. Then let the customer decide. Have a full disclaimer to give them in hand when they decide to go the cheap route so they don't come knocking back on your door crying for warranty and service.

It's human nature to want to have your cake and eat it! But in reality, it's not possible. Maybe losing some margin is a great trade-off to not have put up with idiot customers after the sale!

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## Chris Ryser

> *Are we the thieves and the onliners the reality.*



....................I believe there is a little more to it than just a sentence.

The North American Continent has become the testing ground for the big optical corporations. It is obvious that they are going full out in every possible direction to achieve full domination of the optical retail market besides already having near control of the manufacturing side.

In Europe they have already achieved to control the laboratory side where the smaller labs disappear and are being replaced by the big monster outfits.

To me it looks like they want to strangle the MA&PA or B&M operation in the not to distant future. 

Optician have helped them along by pushing all the lens treatments they can not do in their on on site lab, and have to sell them at higher prices and which are made in a central location.

When onliners can sell at a certain price we can all be sure that there is also so profit in their selling prices but the quantity makes the buck, so if the consumer is short on cash he will go there where it costs less.

The regular non specialized optician looks more and more like a loosing breed, unless they adapt.

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## optimensch

"When onliners can sell at a certain price we can all be sure that there is also so profit in their selling prices but the quantity makes the buck"

That may not be true actually. It is very far from clear whether online opticals make a profit. I have a feeling even WP, despite all the hype they have created, is far from profitable. A number of less-well funded online ops have folded their tents.

Since dropping E our COGS has also dropped meaningully, our earnings have grown, and we have been passing on savings to consumers at the same time. Not one has complained.

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## Chris Ryser

There used to be a time when a frame importer and wholesaler was making a gross profit of around 42% and ended up making making a net of between 4-9%.

That was back in the 1960's and 1970's. Then the frame market started to get flooded by newcomers and new producers.

In the 1980's frame wholesalers started to give retailers consignment inventory of pay only what you, sold and return what you could not sell to gain customers.

The golden times for optical retailers had just started. They increased their stock at no cost. Warranties and exchange privileges were offered for years. 

However they did not complain that the wholesalers where forced to increase their gross profit to finance these these new habits. So in the 1980's and further, the cost of frames to the retail market went sky high 
while the cost of producing went down with the production that got shifted from Europe to the Far East.

These days when it is easy to check manufacturers selling prices on centralized web sites like AliBaba, one can clearly see that today's frames are sold ex factory at similar rates to the price range they were in the 1960's.  

One large difference is that  many or most new models come in limited sizes and not in a full range of sizes as they used to.

These days the on-line optical's are making profits in the same range as they optical retail used to make because they have cut out the middle man,
the frame wholesale company that is financing the retailers with high prices or they get steep discounts for quantity purchases.

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## optimensch

"These days the on-line optical's are making profits in the same range as they optical retail used to make because they have cut out the middle man,
the frame wholesale company that is financing the retailers with high prices or they get steep discounts for quantity purchases."

Woe is the middle man....

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## idispense

> "These days the on-line optical's are making profits in the same range as they optical retail used to make because they have cut out the middle man,
> the frame wholesale company that is financing the retailers with high prices or they get steep discounts for quantity purchases."
> 
> Woe is the middle man....


British Columbia discovered just who the middle man is and the rest of the Provinces might be about to discover that same demise.

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## qualitylenses

This is really getting away form the original thread.  ECP's keep supporting Essilor who is their competition. Not just online, but Essilor keeps Wal Mart and Costco in business. They continually offer them incentives, lower pricing and advertising money. Many of our peers simply sit around and write them a cheque each month. It's enough already. For years I have only given my business to an independent lab. I refuxe to give money to someone who is actively trying and take my patients away

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## Chris Ryser

> *Not just online, but Essilor keeps Wal Mart and Costco in business. They continually offer them incentives, lower pricing and advertising money.
> *



As far as I know the Costsco's and WalMarts have their own monster labs
operating across this continent to supply their outlets, and I believe that they do not need any support to stay in business.

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## qualitylenses

> As far as I know the Costsco's and WalMarts have their own monster labs
> operating across this continent to supply their outlets, and I believe that they do not need any support to stay in business.



Actually all of Wal Marts work is done by Essilor(for a time earlier this year Hoya did a portion of it). Essilor also purchases and manages their frame inventory for them.  Costco purchases all their lens and coating supplies from Essilor and only uses their freeform designs. All this work is heavily subsidized by the ECP's so that Essilor can control larger market share.  Again, the independent is helping their competition flourish.

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## idispense

What's your explanation as to why ECPs do it and what's the explanation as to why independent labs have not changed ECP thinking ?

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## qualitylenses

The only reason I can assume ECP's support Essilor/Nikon, ie their competition is that the majority do not see the whole picture. Plus Essilor has great marketing and can spin the story to their advantage (look at Coastal).Once they offered us a "free edger" When I compared their lab prices to what I was paying from my independent lab, I could have bought two edgers over 5 years and had even more money in the bank. I wonder how many poor businessman/ECP's fell for that rip-off.

We have used Plastic Plus for a number of years. We started with their Seiko freeform designs over 5 years ago and are thrilled. I don't know in the rest of the country, but now with Riverside becoming Essilor there are no other high tech labs here. Essilor controls the market and the pricing.

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## Chris Ryser

> *All this work is heavily subsidized by the ECP's so that Essilor can control larger market share.  Again, the independent is helping their competition flourish.*



................and the faster and sooner this competition will make the efforts to deregulate the regional professional bodies. So far they have succeeded in Quebec which will see a lot more public advertising in French, the native home language of E and the majority of optical professionals.

The Canadian optical trade magazines will not take a stand in this issue as they do not want to loose the income from advertising. The hand is around their throat.

I have just been accepted as a member at Board-URL:    http://forum.optiker.de   which is a closed forum and only open to professionals. So I will be getting a closer view of the happenings in Germany and other areas in the German language.

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## HindSight2020

> As far as I know the Costsco's and WalMarts have their own monster labs
> operating across this continent to supply their outlets, and I believe that they do not need any support to stay in business.


In Canada, Wal-Mart contracts out all of their business to E's labs in Etobicoke, while Costco operates their own facility in Montreal but is exclusive of rebranded E's products.

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## HindSight2020

> The only reason I can assume ECP's support Essilor/Nikon, ie their competition is that the majority do not see the whole picture. Plus Essilor has great marketing and can spin the story to their advantage (look at Coastal).Once they offered us a "free edger" When I compared their lab prices to what I was paying from my independent lab, I could have bought two edgers over 5 years and had even more money in the bank. I wonder how many poor businessman/ECP's fell for that rip-off.
> 
> We have used Plastic Plus for a number of years. We started with their Seiko freeform designs over 5 years ago and are thrilled. I don't know in the rest of the country, but now with Riverside becoming Essilor there are no other high tech labs here. Essilor controls the market and the pricing.


There are quite a few decent options out there; you just need to search a little harder.

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## qualitylenses

We are very happy with Plastic Plus. Have used them almost exclusively for close to 10 years. Great customer service and great freeform designs. If there is even a mistake (ours or theirs) it is corrected very quickly. They also give us some great freeform at lower prices for the patients who require.

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## HindSight2020

> We are very happy with Plastic Plus. Have used them almost exclusively for close to 10 years. Great customer service and great freeform designs. If there is even a mistake (ours or theirs) it is corrected very quickly. They also give us some great freeform at lower prices for the patients who require.


This thread is beginning to take shape of a cheesy self made infomercial.

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## qualitylenses

You asked.  I started the thread about why people give money to their competition.

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## HindSight2020

> You asked.  I started the thread about why people give money to their competition.


It was not me that asked.  Whether ECP's support the optical giants or not, we live in a democratic society where people are entitled to make their own purchasing decisions based on whatever rationale they feel appropriate from whomever they choose.

Politely and carefully bashing such a giant and then spinning it to be in your favour is very weak and sheepish.

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## optical maven

> It was not me that asked.  Whether ECP's support the optical giants or not, we live in a democratic society where people are entitled to make their own purchasing decisions based on whatever rationale they feel appropriate from whomever they choose.
> 
> Politely and carefully bashing such a giant and then spinning it to be in your favour is very weak and sheepish.


In a democratic society we are able to ask questions and freely express our views without being scolded.  I agree that supporting Essilor and Lux are poor business decisions for ECPs.

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## HindSight2020

> In a democratic society we are able to ask questions and freely express our views without being scolded.  I agree that supporting Essilor and Lux are poor business decisions for ECPs.


Don't misinterpret other's opinions as scolding.  Far from it.

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## coupe

IMO PP+ is very expensive for wholesale lenses. I use them sparingly but truly cannot commit my whole quantity of lab work to them without tripleing my retail price.

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## optimensch

E wants to brand every little thing - the coating, the material, the design, the transition etc... adding "a la carte" fees and jacking up prices 3% every year. On CC website, they are happy to offer bundles, unbranded, which dont rise in price 3% every year (or so it seems).

So E wants ECPS to absorb the inflation costs, pay top dollar, maintain the expensive brands, while they happily provide the volume/discount to end consumers. Basically we subsidize their capturing the whole pie while their stock price soars and our margins and strength diminish. It is POISON to this profession and supporting them does not make sense. In fact it is a lazy approach. Finding and supporting unbranded/white label suppliers takes a bit of work, affords much better pricing and is like switching from an unhealthy fast food diet to a more organic whole grain one!!!

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## HindSight2020

> E wants to brand every little thing - the coating, the material, the design, the transition etc... adding "a la carte" fees and jacking up prices 3% every year. On CC website, they are happy to offer bundles, unbranded, which dont rise in price 3% every year (or so it seems).
> 
> So E wants ECPS to absorb the inflation costs, pay top dollar, maintain the expensive brands, while they happily provide the volume/discount to end consumers. Basically we subsidize their capturing the whole pie while their stock price soars and our margins and strength diminish. It is POISON to this profession and supporting them does not make sense. In fact it is a lazy approach. Finding and supporting unbranded/white label suppliers takes a bit of work, affords much better pricing and is like switching from an unhealthy fast food diet to a more organic whole grain one!!!


Whether or not one agrees with their size or approach in the marketplace, it has proven itself many times over to be very successful. If you had that kind of swagger and control, who wouldn't want more control on all aspects of your own brands portfolio and business units?

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## qualitylenses

Perfectly stated!!
And people don't realize that Essilor controls Nikon as well.  One other fact, over half of Nikon 's work is done offshore and a fair percentage of Essilor's work too. That is taking away jobs and tax dollars from Canada.

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## ak47

> This thread is beginning to take shape of a cheesy self made infomercial.


But wait, there's more !   If you call now, we'll throw in a second set and designer keyring.  All you pay is shipping and handling.  Call now!

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## idispense

> IMO PP+ is very expensive for wholesale lenses. I use them sparingly but truly cannot commit my whole quantity of lab work to them without tripleing my retail price.


perhaps negotiating with committed full volume would bring you better wholesale prices. pp is a good lab with advertised name brand product that is recognized by the public.

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## HindSight2020

> Perfectly stated!!
> And people don't realize that Essilor controls Nikon as well. One other fact, over half of Nikon 's work is done offshore and a fair percentage of Essilor's work too. That is taking away jobs and tax dollars from Canada.


It's called global sourcing and is nothing new, just more prevalent nowadays.  Every single lens supplier in Canada big or small is connected to that model like it or not.  They must be linked to be able to survive.  We all want the best brands, best quality and best prices...but then we complain about lost jobs and tax dollars?  We don't have to look past our bathroom mirrors to see why this is necessary.   

The rights to Seiko is basically owned by Hoya which also gets funneled back to Japan, whether it was purchased and processed in Toronto or across the Pacific.  So, the big lens companies are all a little guilty - big deal.

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## HindSight2020

> But wait, there's more ! If you call now, we'll throw in a second set and designer keyring. All you pay is shipping and handling. Call now!


Which is $1.10 per order.   :Nerd:

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## HindSight2020

> perhaps negotiating with committed full volume would bring you better wholesale prices. pp is a good lab with advertised name brand product that is recognized by the public.


But ECP's never throw their eggs into one basket with any suppliers.  And even when suppliers drop their drawers for a period of time to hopefully gain more of a particular ECP's monthly spend, it seldom works.  The ECP's still want to spread and share the volume while the supplier simply cannibalizes what ever margin is left.  It's a very risky move with no incremental growth.

And then we all go on OB and complain.   :Redcarded:

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## Chris Ryser

> *You asked.  I started the thread about why people give money to their competition.*



If the competition offers a product at a lesser price a large majority will flock to the supplier and do not care who he or she is.

That has been an un-written rule that has existed and dominated forever.

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## HindSight2020

> If the competition offers a product at a lesser price a large majority will flock to the supplier and do not care who he or she is.
> 
> That has been an un-written rule that has existed and dominated forever.


Which is why there is absolutely zero loyalty in bottom feeders.

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## optimensch

> Whether or not one agrees with their size or approach in the marketplace, it has proven itself many times over to be very successful. If you had that kind of swagger and control, who wouldn't want more control on all aspects of your own brands portfolio and business units?


My point is that what is good for E is NOT good for ECPs. While we subsidize their massive growth our own position diminishes. Sure if I were the CEO of E I would see it their way, but I am not a shareholder or employee of E, I am an independent ecp. 

Just as in other health professions (dentist? doctor?), the professional is the brand. Do you know the brand of filling your dentist uses? 

By building your own brand and NOT emphasizing the name of the LENS or LENS COATING you use (does Warby? does CC?) you strengthen your position, imho. Be the brand.

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## HindSight2020

> My point is that what is good for E is NOT good for ECPs. While we subsidize their massive growth our own position diminishes. Sure if I were the CEO of E I would see it their way, but I am not a shareholder or employee of E, I am an independent ecp. 
> 
> Just as in other health professions (dentist? doctor?), the professional is the brand. Do you know the brand of filling your dentist uses? 
> 
> By building your own brand and NOT emphasizing the name of the LENS or LENS COATING you use (does Warby? does CC?) you strengthen your position, imho. Be the brand.


Good points - I've yet to see a chain, umbrella or group of:
DentisslorFYTeethDentist RecommendTooth SourceCapsCoFilling-Mart

Dentists are probably the strongest, wealthiest, successful groups of independent professions in today's world.  Hard to believe they rank 3rd in the highest suicide rates amongst professions.  Perhaps halitosis is a slow methodic killer? :Confused:

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## optical maven

Dentists are successful because they have no competition, other than themselves.  Comparing them to ECPs is apples and oranges. There are no online tooth filling sites that I know of as yet.  Wholesale pricing differences from different labs are not that great and as an independent I am happy to absorb that difference and use independent labs.  Why would any ECP want a multi-tiered giant like E or Lux to know your business volumes?  Like Imperial from the past, when a giant knows your business, they can use that knowledge for their own personal gains.

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## optimensch

> Dentists are successful because they have no competition, other than themselves.  Comparing them to ECPs is apples and oranges. There are no online tooth filling sites that I know of as yet.  Wholesale pricing differences from different labs are not that great and as an independent I am happy to absorb that difference and use independent labs.  Why would any ECP want a multi-tiered giant like E or Lux to know your business volumes?  Like Imperial from the past, when a giant knows your business, they can use that knowledge for their own personal gains.


1) i am moving almost completely away from selling branded lenses. it is bad enough with contacts and certain frame brands - but at least on the ophthalmic lenses I do not need the multinational's products. 
2) i agree that another reason to avoid these products is for the reason you state= so they don't know my volumes etc..
3) wholesale pricing differences- if you source globally, you can get some very attractive prices on all sorts of rx lenses...quite a bit less (depending on material, lens type etc..) than locally, in many cases.

this has been working really well for us and I wish others would do the same as this is what is best for independent ECPs to flourish.

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## Chris Ryser

> *This thread is beginning to take shape of a cheesy self made infomercial.*




Now with todays news .......................... we got a new player

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## sharpstick777

the greatest trajedy of Essilor is how poor their progressive really are.  They are just now adding features to their lenses that Rodenstock had in 2002, and Zeiss, Shamir and Seiko all had by 2004.   Sadly most of their technical effort has been to get around the Zeiss and Seiko patents on Free-form.  Essilor still does not make a fully compensated spherical free-form with advance ray-tracing.  They just added frame adjustments into 1 design.  Yea!  

I sadly see a huge rush by Essilor when the Ziess patent expires in 2019 to full embrace free-form, but spin it in way the entire idea is their invention.

Sadly millions of Essilor customers are wearing way over priced, pathetically under optimized progressives and don't even know it, all because Essilor doesn't want to pay a $2.60 patent fee per pair, yet still charges exorbitant prices for very old technology.

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## Craig

> the greatest trajedy of Essilor is how poor their progressive really are.  They are just now adding features to their lenses that Rodenstock had in 2002, and Zeiss, Shamir and Seiko all had by 2004.   Sadly most of their technical effort has been to get around the Zeiss and Seiko patents on Free-form.  Essilor still does not make a fully compensated spherical free-form with advance ray-tracing.  They just added frame adjustments into 1 design.  Yea!  
> 
> I sadly see a huge rush by Essilor when the Ziess patent expires in 2019 to full embrace free-form, but spin it in way the entire idea is their invention.
> 
> Sadly millions of Essilor customers are wearing way over priced, pathetically under optimized progressives and don't even know it, all because Essilor doesn't want to pay a $2.60 patent fee per pair, yet still charges exorbitant prices for very old technology.


That is sadly very true; there is no reason to use any Essilor progressive if you have a choice.  They do have a decent coating process but the price paid is crazy vs what you get.

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## Golfnorth

> That is sadly very true; there is no reason to use any Essilor progressive if you have a choice.  They do have a decent coating process but the price paid is crazy vs what you get.


Amen to that!

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## djal

> Essilor is today the most aggressive optical corporation. Already 50 years ago they would not take one step without calculating to the point if they could take the step and at what risk. They only employ top rated people in important positions.
> 
> Their advertising department is a scientific operation where every impact is studied and calculated before going public. 
> 
> They have realized that if they can sell directly to the public they can multiply their profits, which is better than act just as a distributor  and wholesaler to the optical retail trade. So far they have proven this point by now having over 14 on-line websites in the optical retail business.
> 
> The public is now asking to get Essilor products due to its public advertising and your colleagues find it easier to just supply it, than to convince customers of something similar made by somebody else. 
> 
> What retailers do not realize is that on-line glasses are not a finished, 
> ...


So true!

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## djal

> That is sadly very true; there is no reason to use any Essilor progressive if you have a choice.  They do have a decent coating process but the price paid is crazy vs what you get.


IMO Crizal is a terrible AR coating. Look at the coating with a fluorescent lights behind... after 2 years of wear 80 to 90% of the times you see this generalized "glazing" on the lenses. We have been using Hoya EX3 for over 2 years now...  nothing like this occurs with the EX3.  What I find sad with Hoya USA/ Canada though is the fact they do not have half of the innovative products Hoya Japan offers... If they would ever bring all these products in North America, I'm sure Essilor would begin to get very nervous! I've tried to get an answer from Hoya why the selection of products offered here is so limited compared to Japan... nobody could (or perhaps nobody wants) give me a clear answer!  I even suggested to them to outsource some lenses and get them done in Hoya's factories in Asia/Japan... I was told shipping would be too expensive...  BS obviously as Nikon, Essilor and Shamir do it on a large scale...

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## Chris Ryser

> *I've tried to get an answer from Hoya why the selection of products offered here is so limited compared to Japan... nobody could (or perhaps nobody wants) give me a clear answer!  I even suggested to them to outsource some lenses and get them done in Hoya's factories in Asia/Japan... I was told shipping would be too expensive...  BS obviously as Nikon, Essilor and Shamir do it on a large scale...
> *



Hoya has finally woken up and did join the takeover race a few month ago. They have been forced to join the race or become the looser in the field. So just keep watching and see what they are up to this year.

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## Lab Insight

> IMO Crizal is a terrible AR coating. Look at the coating with a fluorescent lights behind... after 2 years of wear 80 to 90% of the times you see this generalized "glazing" on the lenses. We have been using Hoya EX3 for over 2 years now...  nothing like this occurs with the EX3.  What I find sad with Hoya USA/ Canada though is the fact they do not have half of the innovative products Hoya Japan offers... If they would ever bring all these products in North America, I'm sure Essilor would begin to get very nervous! I've tried to get an answer from Hoya why the selection of products offered here is so limited compared to Japan... nobody could (or perhaps nobody wants) give me a clear answer!  I even suggested to them to outsource some lenses and get them done in Hoya's factories in Asia/Japan... I was told shipping would be too expensive...  BS obviously as Nikon, Essilor and Shamir do it on a large scale...


It has nothing to do with shipping costs; correct they're giving you BS, and here's why... 

Hoya North America wants to sell you a very limited portfolio of lenses - the ones that they can make the most profit on.  They don't give a hoot about Japan's products. The American president's famous slogan to his reps is to "Sell what you got".

As for Canada, it is even more BS and limited.  They currently outsource about 70% of their jobs to Thailand and receive a box from them every day.  Last time I checked a map, Thailand is much closer to Japan than North America is.

Global sourcing of products is fine as it's the way of the future as the market continues to change.  However, 7-10 day overseas delivery is horrible for them, especially when other smaller companies are to do it in 4 days with the same quality and lower cost and is about to get even better very soon....

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## Chris Ryser

> Global sourcing of products is fine as it's the way of the future as the market continues to change.  However, 7-10 day overseas delivery is horrible for them, especially when other smaller companies are to do it in 4 days with the same quality and lower cost and is about to get even better very soon....



If you allow me to make a correction .........................

These companies all have special arrangements with UPS/FEDEX/DHL for overnight or 2nd day delivery on a worldwide basis.

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## Lab Insight

> If you allow me to make a correction .........................
> 
> These companies all have special arrangements with UPS/FEDEX/DHL for overnight or 2nd day delivery on a worldwide basis.


Correct, so one must ask why it takes Hoya so long 7-10 days?  It says so right on their price list 'please allow 7-10 days for delivery'.

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## optical maven

I have used Hoya for several years and have found their quality excellent.  They had some problems with their lab, but now seem to be corrected.  It's true it takes 7-10 days to get a job, but often that can be faster.  People don't seem to mind.  No matter what, even though I can't fully divest from Essilor, I think it is dumb for any independent to use the Essilor lab directly.  I also use Hamilton Lens and Dave is great.

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## Quince

> Correct, so one must ask why it takes Hoya so long 7-10 days?  It says so right on their price list 'please allow 7-10 days for delivery'.



I could list all the reasons we have delays on our orders but that isn't the point. Nothing we haven't heard or said before. I do know that they will say themselves that their AR takes up to two days alone because of the substrate process. Not sure how accurate this is. They do offer their Sight Overnight from Columbus which is a selection of lenses and coatings that are available to be received next day if ordered by 1pm. It does come in on time- just not always right...

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## Lab Insight

> I could list all the reasons we have delays on our orders but that isn't the point. Nothing we haven't heard or said before. I do know that they will say themselves that their AR takes up to two days alone because of the substrate process. Not sure how accurate this is. They do offer their Sight Overnight from Columbus which is a selection of lenses and coatings that are available to be received next day if ordered by 1pm. It does come in on time- just not always right...


The 7-10 delivery window is an average turn around period and does not even factor in breakages or shipping mishaps.

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## Chris Ryser

Here we go: 

2 years later the Lux and Essilor are merging to make the largest ever existing optical company on a global level. Amen.

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## Chris Ryser

> posted *12-19-2014, 09:30 AM*
> 
> *You would not believe the number of Canada accounts that Big has. Some of the most important companies in Canada do business with them. Many of the Opti Boarders who have accounts with them...read these comments....and still shovel money to them. The big question is why. Is it the old National Optical system of equipment for lab work. Is it guarenteed lab orders for preferential pricing....is it something else.
> 
> Why would we deal with M now that they have an agreement with FYI.  Face it, the little independents ar being squeezed out by the large chain store powers.* *The indy 10-15 jobs a week VS a chain store group of hundreds of orders per DAY says it all.*



2 1/4  years since above post was published here on this OptiBoard thread by "coupe".

Some day in June 1964, = 53 years ago, I was standing on the dock at the New York harbour, watching the then largest liner "France" come in and dock. 

The highest ranking passengers occupying  the presidential suite on the "FRANCE" was Mr and Mrs Cottet, the big chief of the then "ESSEL", the largest optical manufacturer in France.
see at:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essilor 

I drove them to Montreal the next day where they stayed a few days to establish new business contacts which became very eventful for next few years after that.

Ever since that day I have had a very large interest in the development of that corporation.

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## djal

> It has nothing to do with shipping costs; correct they're giving you BS, and here's why... 
> 
> Hoya North America wants to sell you a very limited portfolio of lenses - the ones that they can make the most profit on.  They don't give a hoot about Japan's products. The American president's famous slogan to his reps is to "Sell what you got".
> 
> As for Canada, it is even more BS and limited.  They currently outsource about 70% of their jobs to Thailand and receive a box from them every day.  Last time I checked a map, Thailand is much closer to Japan than North America is.
> 
> Global sourcing of products is fine as it's the way of the future as the market continues to change.  However, 7-10 day overseas delivery is horrible for them, especially when other smaller companies are to do it in 4 days with the same quality and lower cost and is about to get even better very soon....


The ultimate solution IMO...  get rid of the CEOs at Hoya North America and replace them by Japanese people from Hoya...  I agree that EX3 is a FAR BETTER coating than Crizal BUT I want MORE...  I want the Venus AR coating in Asia with anti-static+ UV blocking capabilities from the back surface like Crizal...  Again these CEOS here should be thought what the word Kaisen means...  "If you don't get any better you are getting worst".  Imagine if the Japanese car plants in North America would be ran by fat cats hillbillies from this continent;  you would end up with the same **** we get when buying a Ford, Chrysler or GM car.  And even experts say that a Japanese cars made in North America are not up to par with the same models made in Japan( like the good old days)!

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## Lab Insight

> The ultimate solution IMO...  get rid of the CEOs at Hoya North America and replace them by Japanese people from Hoya...  I agree that EX3 is a FAR BETTER coating than Crizal BUT I want MORE...  I want the Venus AR coating in Asia with anti-static+ UV blocking capabilities from the back surface like Crizal...  Again these CEOS here should be thought what the word Kaisen means...  "If you don't get any better you are getting worst".  Imagine if the Japanese car plants in North America would be ran by fat cats hillbillies from this continent;  you would end up with the same **** we get when buying a Ford, Chrysler or GM car.  And even experts say that a Japanese cars made in North America are not up to par with the same models made in Japan( like the good old days)!


Then you should send them each a note telling them so under the dissatisfaction warranty. :Biggrin:

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## Lab Insight

Say what you want about Essilor.  They are still the only company out there that ante up in the hundreds of thousands each year to support ECP's, their associations, events and the Colleges that have cowardly turned against them and now in a legal battle.  Pffft good luck with that.

These morons and their egos running the Colleges should all be released from their duties and looking for ways to support their members rather than picking fights they will never win and will only leave them flat broke and walking funny after the lawyers are done with them. 

 Then guess what will happen....you guessed it - the Colleges will be back in line asking Essilor for food stamps and if they can jump back into their lavish coffers.

Listen to djal -  he hit it bang on with his analogy of Hoya.  They're more of an enemy to the ECP than ally.

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## Browman

> Then you should send them each a note telling them so under the dissatisfaction warranty.


They'll never listen. The massive number of defects and delayed shipping times aside (10 days? Try 28 on a poly safety job with no AR and transitions!), Hoya's problem is and will continue to be attitude. They're incapable of seeing their own mistakes because their upper echelons are staffed with people convinced they can do no wrong, that everything they do is right, and that any failure on their part is actually because of Essilor. Their stubborn refusal to take responsibility for their own failures, and their insistence on shifting the blame onto the OD or optician or Essilor when HOYA is the one who @$&^% up, is unconscionable. I've said it before, but, integrity goes a long way towards who I'm willing to do business with, and Hoya has demonstrated that they have none.

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## CCGREEN

I do a few 3M safety jobs on occasion. According to a memo I recently got from 3M and a Hoya rep that came through last week Hoya has purchased 3M. Going to be interesting to see what the turn around time and quality is coming from them here on out. 3M always took 2 to 3 weeks and quality was good. Only thing I was getting out of 3M was a fitting fee because the companies that use them have vision service plans for their employees. We dont do anything with Vision Plans in this office thank goodness. Only reason we do some safety is just PR (public relations) hoping to get their medical insurance for cataract surgery of other medical eye issues.
I have never understood why those in this area that take those vision service plans for the companies dont also do their Safety Glasses. Lot less headache with Safety the plans.

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## Lab Insight

> They'll never listen. The massive number of defects and delayed shipping times aside (10 days? Try 28 on a poly safety job with no AR and transitions!), Hoya's problem is and will continue to be attitude. They're incapable of seeing their own mistakes because their upper echelons are staffed with people convinced they can do no wrong, that everything they do is right, and that any failure on their part is actually because of Essilor. Their stubborn refusal to take responsibility for their own failures, and their insistence on shifting the blame onto the OD or optician or Essilor when HOYA is the one who @$&^% up, is unconscionable. I've said it before, but, integrity goes a long way towards who I'm willing to do business with, and Hoya has demonstrated that they have none.


Very true - urgency or responsibility is not in their vocabulary.  Arrogance certainly only hinders any business relationship.

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## Lab Insight

> I do a few 3M safety jobs on occasion. According to a memo I recently got from 3M and a Hoya rep that came through last week Hoya has purchased 3M. Going to be interesting to see what the turn around time and quality is coming from them here on out. 3M always took 2 to 3 weeks and quality was good. Only thing I was getting out of 3M was a fitting fee because the companies that use them have vision service plans for their employees. We dont do anything with Vision Plans in this office thank goodness. Only reason we do some safety is just PR (public relations) hoping to get their medical insurance for cataract surgery of other medical eye issues.
> I have never understood why those in this area that take those vision service plans for the companies dont also do their Safety Glasses. Lot less headache with Safety the plans.


3M was purchased simply for the volume and a way to gain instant access into new offices that are safety dispensers.  Producing safety lenses is more of a community service more than anything else, and I'm sure the selling price was dirt cheap.

The business strategy to me seems rather flawed and desperate...why would a premium lens manufacturer want to own and produce the cheapest lenses on the market? It goes completely against the grain.  My guess is they will just flip the entire safety division over to Thailand for production in due time.  That makes more business sense to me.

A better strategy would be to purchase large OD practices and vertically integrate.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Say what you want about Essilor.  They are still the only company out there that ante up in the hundreds of thousands each year to support ECP's, their associations, events and the Colleges that have cowardly turned against them and now in a legal battle.  Pffft good luck with that.
> 
> 
> **.......................Then guess what will happen....you guessed it - the Colleges will be back in line asking Essilor for food stamps and if they can jump back into their lavish coffers.*



BC  is  no more regulated, and so is Quebec, and the turn is now on Ontario to do the same. So in another 5 to 8 years all of Canada will have become a free for all, optical retail  country, with the USA taking some parallel action.

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## Lab Insight

> BC  is  no more regulated, and so is Quebec, and the turn is now on Ontario to do the same. So in another 5 to 8 years all of Canada will have become a free for all, optical retail  country, with the USA taking some parallel action.


Playing devil's advocate for a moment...it seems to me that BC and Quebec continue to operate smoothly without regulation and pay rates have not been cut in half.

I'm not saying I'm in favor of deregulation, but it is a valid observation to point out.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Playing devil's advocate for a moment...it seems to me that BC and Quebec continue to operate smoothly without regulation and pay rates have not been cut in half.
> *



................however your friendly garbage collector or street cleaner can become an optician in your friendly neighborhood opticians store from one day to the next without any effort.




> *I'm not saying I'm in favor of deregulation, but it is a valid observation to point out.*



...................deregulation of the optical retail market will remove all professional responsibility of the retail seller towards the purchaser.

It then will be be moved voluntarily to the manufacturers and their subsidiaries, the optical labs who supply the Rx's and then will control also the quality of the retail market.

This will leave the major manufacturers an open road to dominate the online optical retail sales they want to increase with their major presence. 

Opticians over the last few years have been discouraged to do any extra lens treatments in their own premises and purchase their lenses all finished by the labs, either uncut or all done at much higher prices.

This domino effect on the optical retail trade will be the eventual death of the profession with the exception of the few real professionals who acquired the needed knowledge to survive and continue to flourish.

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## Lab Insight

> ................however your friendly garbage collector or street cleaner can become an optician in your friendly neighborhood opticians store from one day to the next without any effort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...................deregulation of the optical retail market will remove all professional responsibility of the retail seller towards the purchaser.
> 
> It then will be be moved voluntarily to the manufacturers and their subsidiaries, the optical labs who supply the Rx's and then will control also the quality of the retail market.
> 
> ...


Chris, unfortunately the open road is already there.  The Colleges and Associations are to blame for standing silent on the side lines for too long.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Chris, unfortunately the open road is already there.  The Colleges and Associations are to blame for standing silent on the side lines for too long.*



Lab Insight, you have a good point there ..................

One of our newest Quebec located online opticals has even been partially financed by the Quebec Angels, an investment group.

*Anges Québec Encourages the Vision of Bonlook and its Online Optical Shop with an Investment of Over $1M

*June 5, 2013

*(Montreal, June 5th, 2013) – Bonlook’s vision team and dynamic team convinced Anges Québec investors and the Anges Québec Capital Fund to invest $1.1 million in this Quebec-based online optical shop which offers a distinct product. The Fund contributed $150K, while the rest of the amount comes from 25 private member investors of Anges Québec, including Caroline Pelletier, who led this investment project.
**
*See all of it: ==========>*
https://angesquebec.com/en/anges-que...ent-of-over-1m


*If they did not sell into Quebec, because it was regulated territory and now not anymore, they established themselves in the USA for the first few 3 years as their prime territory, but that has probably now changed. 

So we got one more of which the Alexa ranking is strongly on the way up the ladder.

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## Lab Insight

> Lab Insight, you have a good point there ..................
> 
> One of our newest Quebec located online opticals has even been partially financed by the Quebec Angels, an investment group.
> 
> *Anges Québec Encourages the Vision of Bonlook and its Online Optical Shop with an Investment of Over $1M
> 
> *June 5, 2013
> 
> *(Montreal, June 5th, 2013) – Bonlook’s vision team and dynamic team convinced Anges Québec investors and the Anges Québec Capital Fund to invest $1.1 million in this Quebec-based online optical shop which offers a distinct product. The Fund contributed $150K, while the rest of the amount comes from 25 private member investors of Anges Québec, including Caroline Pelletier, who led this investment project.
> ...


Great post Chris.  Similarly, Roger Hardy started Coastal Contacts more than 10 years ago with a group of venture capital investors and according to what we learned, was never 'legal'.  So we are told.  One thing that was real was the market share.  

They never made a single dollar in profit during that period,  but they knew one day that market share would translate into profit.

And it sure did...they were acquired for more than $400M for that very cause.  Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder; investments are no different.

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## tmorse

> BC  is  no more regulated


Not totally accurate... our BC regulatory College remains in place and the registration of Dispensing Opticians in BC is now voluntary. However, the practice of Contact Lens Fitting remains fully regulated in BC, as is 'sight-testing' by registered and certified Opticians.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Not totally accurate... our BC regulatory College remains in place and the registration of Dispensing Opticians in BC is now voluntary. 
> 
> **However, the practice of Contact Lens Fitting remains fully regulated in BC, as is 'sight-testing' by registered and certified Opticians.*



If I would open a large nice store in downtown Vancouver I would never become a volunteer and register with the College of Opticians if not needed.

.........and if we wanted to do "sight testing" I would hire an optician that is registered with the College of Opticians as needed, no problem.

In such a business, what brings in the money, are the sales of eyeglasses at the conventional pricing system of free service, and warranties included forever, and paid out front.

However the "conventional pricing system" is very probably on its last leg and will have to be changed in the very foreseeable future to "basic pricing, plus charges for services rendered". 

This is all due to the present "non internet savvy", old age generation dying off over the next few years.

We have all been informed by the Essilor-Luxottica merger reports that the newly formed super giant corporation will concentrate mainly on internet sales .

Furthermore knowing, that the North American Continent is their usual testing ground, it all will happen here first. So tighten your seatbelts before it happens.

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## tmorse

> deregulation of the optical retail market will remove all professional responsibility of the retail seller towards the purchaser.


 Retail eyeglass seller in BC will still be bound by our BC 'SALE OF GOODS ACT', which require that the eyeglasses 'be fit for purpose' and retail purchaser access to Small Claims Court remains in effect for improperly dispensed eyewear.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Retail eyeglass seller in BC will still be bound by our BC 'SALE OF GOODS ACT', which require that the eyeglasses 'be fit for purpose' and retail purchaser access to Small Claims Court remains in effect for improperly dispensed eyewear.*



tmorse, thank you for posting that........................

Small Claims Courts have been introduced the world over many years ago, so any citizen can go before a judge, without having to hire a lawyer and for reasonable cost, to file an action for not more than a set amount, depending on local laws, and or rules.

This is nothing unique for the optical retail world, but would be interesting to know how many individuals have taken that step to recuperate moneys paid to opticians.

I also see on most online optical websites that they all claim to have a very easy refund policy.

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