# Professional and Educational Organizations > Professional and Educational Organizations Discussion Forum >  Who runs ABO/NCLE?

## MVEYES

Who is the governing board at ABO/NCLE?


:) Jerry

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## MVEYES

I wanted to have a discussion with the governing body of ABO/NCLE about their rigid rules for certifying speakers for Advanced Certification courses. Does anyone have any comments or opinions?

 :Confused:  Jerry

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## Steve Machol

Here's a list of 'Licensing Boards' from the ABO site:

http://www.abo.org/licensing.html

You can also email them at mail@abo-ncle.org.  I didn't find any mention of a Governing Board on their site however.

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## Judy Canty

Contact them at www.abo-ncle.org

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## MVEYES

I went to ABO/NCLE's website and emailed them with the question "Who are the directors of ABO/NCLE?". I haven't received a response yet but hopefully soon.  As an education chairman of our state association, I find that dealing with organizations who make it difficult to put on their progams turn me off to putting on the programs. I think Advanced Certification is great  but to find an individual speaker who is certified by the board to do several specific courses is close to impossible. I called the ABO/NCLE office and asked if two of the speakers could teach some of the core courses as well as some of the contact lens courses. I was told they would have to go through a certification process and to pay $50 per course to get their names on the list.
They are already speakers in several  other advanced certified courses. The remarks from the ABO/NCLE office was that we probably could not get them certified before our March meeting. I don't understand why not! They have been scrutinized for  the other courses and found to be quality speakers. Is this $50 certification fee per course the cost to look over the application? What happened to the non-profit status of the organization? Each one of us who are certified pays for certificaion renewal and  individual course costs.

Bureaucratic policies are part of the problem with our society.  I was hoping that our educational institutions could trim some of this but it looks bleak.

Frustrated,
  :shiner: Jerry

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## MVEYES

I'm still waiting to get that e-mail reply. It's been 4 days now.

 :cry:  Jerry

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## Bev Heishman

There are two boards if I can remember correctly.  One for ABO and one for NCLE.  ABO is composed of members elected by the OAA Board and the NAO Board.  NCLE is composed of members elected by the boards of OAA and CLSA.  At least this is my recollection.

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## MVEYES

We need to contact the leadership of these boards and propose our ideas of higher education.

 :Cool:  Jerry

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## stephanie

Why don't you just call ABO and ask? I will even give you a name...Kara sorry can't remember her last name right at this moment but I am sure she is the only Kara there. She is absolutely wonderful and helpful I am sure she can tell you exactly what you want to know. I went to a meeting in Baltimore back in June with them and all were very helpful. 

Steph

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## chip anderson

Does the CLSA have a new E.Mail address.  I used to get  them and occasionally they actually answered @   clsa@husky.net 

Lately the mail comes back.   I am supposedly a fellow member in good standing.

Where is they on the net?

I can find the web page but I can't get through.

Chip

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## Diane

> _Originally posted by chip anderson_ 
> *Does the CLSA have a new E.Mail address.  I used to get  them and occasionally they actually answered @   clsa@husky.net 
> 
> Lately the mail comes back.   I am supposedly a fellow member in good standing.
> 
> Where is they on the net?
> 
> I can find the web page but I can't get through.
> 
> Chip*


Chip,  their e-mail HAS changed.  It's clsa@patriot.net...  Try this website and see if you get through.http://www.clsa.info/index.shtml


Diane

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## MVEYES

I have called and talked to Barbara Head. I was presented with little hope of certifying speakers for advanced certified courses that I had scheduled for our annual convention even though they were already certified for part of the courses. What is it with a $50/ course application fee for each speaker? Maybe I am unduly upset with bureaucratic red tape.


 :Eek:  Jerry

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## stephanie

So what you are saying Jerry is that speakers have to PAY for an application to be speakers? 


Steph

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## MVEYES

They pay this fee for EVERY course they want to be listed as a speaker .


:hammer: Jerry

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## Laurie

Hi Jerry,

I am listed as an ABO-AC speaker...

I paid $50.00 to be approved for ALL of the courses (well, the 10-12 I applied for which I felt comfortable talking about).

That was a few year ago, but I wasn't aware that they have since changed the fee for every course!  Can you apply once and list a dozen courses?

just curious,

Laurie

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## MVEYES

The information that Barbara Head from ABO-NCLE sent me stated that the fee was $50/course. When I talked to her on the phone she verified that. It will cost our state association an extra $300 to get our two speakers accredited for the courses I have planned to have. I know I could have requested more speakers but the cost of travel and speaker honorariums would have exceeded the cost to have them certified. I hope that Tina Schott from CLSA can obtain a grant for our program. It would certainly help our cost for this convention.

 :Cool:  Jerry

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## Diane

> _Originally posted by Laurie_ 
> *Hi Jerry,
> 
> I am listed as an ABO-AC speaker...
> 
> I paid $50.00 to be approved for ALL of the courses (well, the 10-12 I applied for which I felt comfortable talking about).
> 
> That was a few year ago, but I wasn't aware that they have since changed the fee for every course!  Can you apply once and list a dozen courses?
> 
> ...


Laurie, 

I believe when the advanced pre-requisite courses first came out, there was an opportunity for you to submit (still based on speaker qualifications) request to be approved for as many courses as you felt qualified for, and there was maybe just the one $50.00 for all that you applied for.  Everyone who applied did not get accepted as speakers.   Now (since I've started getting approval for the advanced courses) it is $50.00 per course and you cannot even submit to be approved for but (I understand) 3 at a time.  The rationale is that you cannot adequately prepare for more than that at a time.  There is criteria for the amount of time that has been factored into being prepared for the courses.   For those of you with foresight enough to sign up for vast numbers, it was to your advantage financially to do so when they first came out.

Diane

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## MVEYES

Interesting that the rationale is that you could only prepare for so many courses when they are set out verbatim to teach.


 :Cool:  Jerry

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## Bev Heishman

I don't remember that Diane.  I remember paying the $50 a course to speak for a few and remember the organization who requested me to present others applying and paying the fee on my behalf. If you remember not everyone can pesent them they have to meet certain criteria to be able to present.

I also pay when submiting a new course unless we are asked to  write a new one and present it at meetings such as EXPO and EyeQuest then the provider submits and pays.

For those of you asking about grading a speaker, when presenting at EyeQuest and the like we actually do receive a critique based in fact on the overall class attendance in a variety of areas plus areas that may need improvement.  The hardest one though is controlling the room temperature.:D

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## MVEYES

In one of my posts I had metioned that the board had previously approved these speakers for other advanced courses. What is there about resubmitting vitae again? These speakers are approved of for other contact lens courses. Their advanced knowledge in contact lenses should lend them to be able to speak for any of the contact lens courses or core courses. Don't you think?  There are many ways of funding an organization but you keep out very well qualified speakers and put a financial burden on the state societies when you nickle and dime every aspect of a excellent education program.

 :Confused:  Jerry

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## Steve Machol

It seems to me it would be nice to get a definitive answer from someone at the ABO about these speaker's fees.   :Confused:

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## Cindy Hamlin

Jerry,
I don't know if this will help or not, but there is a book that can be obtained from the ABO that I received about 3 months ago.

It is called:
"Criteria for Continuing Education and Sponsor Handbook".

I called the ABO and asked for it and it was sent to me free of charge.  It says in it that "a $50 non-refundable fee must be submitted with each course approval application effective July 1, 2001. (P.27)"   Also, "the non-refundable application fee for new courses is $50 (P.26). 

Also, in a booklet they sent me with my renewal it lists a number for Education Help Line (703) 715-6435.

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## MVEYES

Your'e right. Maybe I just caught them on a bad day.

 :Cool:  Jerry

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## Bev Heishman

Jerry,

I know it is cumbersome and yes you do have to resubmit vitea for each course.  Just because one speaker is approved for a course doesn't mean he or she is qualified for the all the topics at hand.

The same is done for other organizations such as JACHPO.

Bev

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## MVEYES

I'm really just gripping about the bureaucracy of it all.



:hammer: Jerry

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## MVEYES

Our state society has been following the woes of Pennsylvania Opticians. You should join in on the forum that Jo posted 'OD's getting it from all sides'. A very interesting perspective has developed on licensure and formal education.


 :Cool:  Jerry

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## Alan W

I gotta be gettin old (or am!) or somethin.

Twas once upon a time...students paid to learn, instructors got paid to teach. Now somebody else is getting paid to decide whether someone should teach and if so, do it for nothin!

The really really good profs and guru's got all kinds of stipends, grants, fellowships, recognition for having, excuse the expression, accomplished something worth sharing. Tom Peters gets paid thousands to stand in front of business students to talk about corporate America. 

He don't pay! . . . That's ridiculous!

I jutht thimply dont underthtand!

Who are these people getting this money and what is it for and are they qualified to evaluate an instructor or trainer And . . . and . . . let THEM give the course since they're gettin the big bucks.

Sheeesh!

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## Homer

Mveyes,
You can become a mail-order doctorate if you like ..........  or you can get a real education by paying for it.

The higher the education the more complicated the criteria for the instructors.   This is an absolutely necessary filter in order to have educational standards that will stand up to the other professions who might question our level/quality of education.

If you want free education, I'm sure you can find plenty of vendors to put on seminars for you - same ones a last year but with a different name so they can count.

Question.   Do you want advanced education or do you want cheap CEC's

Come on Ohio!   You are big and licensed, pay the price and be leaders.   Show us that opticians are willing to pay for higher education.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

Hi All:

     You are discussing a subject that is near and dear to my heart.  Over the years I have submitted several courses that have been disapproved for reasons which totally escape me.  Four of my ethics courses were disapproved because "the basic exam test specifications do not include ethics..."  Strange but true.

     I suppose what has managed to give me more heartburn than anything else is that both the ABO and NCLE refuse to follow their approval guidelines.  For instance, according to the April 1999 ABO and NCLE Sponsor Newsletter, "Level III courses should relate directly to skills or knowledge contained within the Advanced Certification Examination Content Outline and Test Specifications."  Yet, when I have submitted courses related directly to these topics, many have been disapproved.  To date, no cogent reasons have been offered.

     I'm not sure where the problem is but it is real and bothersome.

Roy R. Ferguson

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## Alan W

Knowing your background, etc. I doubt there are many at ABO who have your academic kahunas!

Which leads me to my next statement.

Opticianry is like Emerald City.
Can't really tell what drives it.
I see the ABO as the Wizard, supposedly there to guard the gates of competency.
But, I suspect that if we sneek a peek behind the curtain  . . .
The Wizard may not be what we think it is. We just let it be that way 'cause . . . who questions the Wizard . . . . OF. . . . . EYES!

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## MVEYES

> You can become a mail-order doctorate if you like .......... or you can get a real education by paying for it.


I suggest that you look at the Universities around the country who are offering college level courses on line. As a matter of fact my sister teaches nursing in Denver and also has to provide a series of courses on-line for the college she works for. Ohio is working hard on its formal education bill but it is a catch 22 with not having course material readily available within a certain mileage from all the counties. The legislature considers availability and the schools won't put on the courses unless it is legislated.

:shiner: Jerry

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## Homer

I have great hope for distance learning and on-line education especially for the younger set.   I was making fun of  the old mail-order notion of diplomas and some of the cheap CEC's out there.

As we look down the road to success in the on-line education and CEC's we will have to ask the question about how state societies will then make their money.

Maybe the convention will have to be centered around clinicals and testing or on-campus times.  ??

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## MVEYES

you said:




> question about how state societies will then make their money.


With better education (formal)we have a chance to improve our wage level. State societies could ask for more in membership dues and hopefully educated Opticians would be more likely to become active in state and national issues both financially and as volunteers in association activities.


:cheers: Jerry

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## Homer

> _Originally posted by MVEYES_ 
> *you said:
> 
> 
> 
> With better education (formal)we have a chance to improve our wage level. *



In my not-always-humble opinion, this is a very chancy assumption.  It is a pipe dream.  What occupation has every accomplished this in the last 15 or even 20 years? I honestly think that time lapse between formal education and licensure and then licensure and increased wage level would be quite a bit longer than we might hope.

In any given state, even licensed ones, the majority of opticians do not belong to their state professional association.   Therein lies the problem.   We apparently have not discovered the "product" that most  "consumers"  want to buy.

I tend to believe that for professional societies of the future, there will need to be found other ways to pay the bills and other reasons to exist.

We are all in the discovery process at the moment.

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## Laurie

Hi you guys,

Formal education and state societies can work hand in hand.  Let the colleges supply formal ed (AS degrees) and let the state societies supply continuing ed (CE courses)...every body wins.

Our college opticianry program could easily set up CE courses for a profit, but we don't because we want to leave that for the state societies.

Most opticianry colleges heavilly support their state society and many of our students join as a result.

Our online stuff is strictly for college credit, not for CE credit.  The state societies can look into offering online CE credits.  I know that Florida is researching that now.

Looking forward to meeting you in NYC : )

Laurie

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## Homer

However ............. the on-line CEC's are just getting started

and...... here in Colorado the Department of Regulatory agencies suggested that CEC's no longer be required for Optometrists ...

... their argument is that CEC's have already been dropped for MD's and Nurses.

If this is the trend, then the CEC business my still not be a reason for a state society to exist let alone paying the bills.

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## MVEYES

You're right. CEC's are an iffy way for state societies to stay afloat. Creative marketing needs to be a strong focus for our associations.




:D :cheers: Jerry

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## ts

abo/ncle is made up of appointments by OAA and NAO. each group appoints 2 people to serve on each board thus 2 oaa on abo and 2 oaa on ncle. 2 nao on abo and 2 nao on ncle. at one time clsa and nfos also had appoiments on the boards but that was done away with a few years ago. This group is where most of your grant money comes from

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## MVEYES

You said:




> at one time clsa and nfos also had appoiments on the boards but that was done away with a few years ago


Why were they done away with? Don't you think that  two of the most important societies in Opticianry education should not be excluded? Why is OAA appointing to those boards? It is a legislative body unlike NAO, CLSA and NFOS. Wake up. Our credentialing bodies look like the judges in the pairs skating in the Olympics. They finally came around to reform and fairness.


:shiner: Jerry

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