# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Lockstep, again

## Spexvet

Every republican voted to confirm Sam Alito. 

Do any of these robots ever think for themselves, or do they just do what they're told (or bribed) to do?

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## fvc2020

Party lines generally are party lines.  However exactly what are you seemingly complaining about with Judge Alito?

Christina

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## spartus

> Every republican voted to confirm Sam Alito. 
> 
> Do any of these robots ever think for themselves, or do they just do what they're told (or bribed) to do?


Lincoln Chafee didn't. Although that was mostly so he wouldn't be facing a well-funded primary opponent from the right _and_ left this year.

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## chip anderson

Would you have them follow the champions of the Democratic Party, 
Teddy Kennedy, and Barbara Boxter?

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## rbaker

Follow Fat Boy Kennedy ! ! ! 

Sorry, I cant swim and I put the plug in the jug 25 years ago.

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## karen

Ok, now back when Ms Ginsberg (aka Ms ACLU) was being confirmed we were all a bit less partisan.  I think even a "few" of my Republican friends voted for her.  Why is it if my side all agrees (except one) this is a good choice it is lockstep.

Kennedy pretty much called Alito a bigot and that's OK??????

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## Spexvet

> Ok, now back when Ms Ginsberg (aka Ms ACLU) was being confirmed we were all a bit less partisan. I think even a "few" of my Republican friends voted for her. Why is it if my side all agrees (except one) this is a good choice it is lockstep.
> 
> Kennedy pretty much called Alito a bigot and that's OK??????


Karen, it's not just this issue. Since the mid-90s, individual republicans have not dared to think independantly (in general). While some Democrats have crossed the line on many issues (Iraq, Schaivo, no child left behind), the republicans, in general, haven't. The one who stands out was ostricized and declared himself independant. Some may view this as being disciplined and "on the same page". I see it as rigid conformism, fostering the partisan politics that inhibits our government from acting in the best interest of all of us.

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## shanbaum

> I think even a "few" of my Republican friends voted for [Ginsburg]. Why is it if my side all agrees (except one) this is a good choice it is lockstep.


Sorry, but that vote was 96-3; you'll have to find another to disprove the charge.

In fact, it _is_ surprising to me that _all_ the R's (save Chaffee) voted for Alito, as I suspect many of them hold a much broader view of Congressional power, and more limited view of Executive power, than he does.

So I think the charge, solidarity trumps philosophy (or in this case, ideology), may have some validity.

That's unfortunate, I think; our system probably worked better when both parties had more diverse adherents (that is, before the Southern Democrats took refuge in the GOP), in that more diverse positions were taken into account, regardless of which party was ascendant.

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## drk

Yes, Shanbaum.  The "conservative democrat" used to be a good type of politician.  What ever happened to those?  Who is to blame?

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## Pete Hanlin

Karen, it's not just this issue. Since the mid-90s, individual republicans have not dared to think independantly (in general). While some Democrats have crossed the line on many issues (Iraq, Schaivo, no child left behind), the republicans, in general, haven't.
Puh-leeeze!  If the Republicans are such lemmings with their votes and support, it seems to me we should be drilling in Anwar at this very moment.  Let's see, there should also have been a major Social Security reform, and the tax cuts should have been much deeper back in 2001-2.  Perhaps the Republicans voted nearly unanimously for the Justice's confirmation because he was a qualified candidate (on second thought, naw that couldn't be it).  Or, perhaps both Republicans and Democrats voted as they did because they felt it was the best way to appease their constituencies and get re-elected in Novemeber...

That's unfortunate, I think; our system probably worked better when both parties had more diverse adherents (that is, before the Southern Democrats took refuge in the GOP), in that more diverse positions were taken into account, regardless of which party was ascendant.
Wow, I guess I'm the only one who (accurately) recalls the Democrat-controlled Congresses of the '80s.  There were plenty of party-line votes back in the good old days (and Republicans whined and cried about it then just like Democrats are now).  Good lord, with the Executive Branch and both sides of Congress, I would certainly _hope_ a party could manage the confirmation of a Supreme Court Justice.

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## shanbaum

> Yes, Shanbaum. The "conservative democrat" used to be a good type of politician. What ever happened to those? Who is to blame?


"Good type of politician?" Actually, what typified them most, with few exceptions, was their commitment to racism and apartheid.

What happened to them was the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which, as Lyndon Johnson said after signing it (accepting blame, as it were), handed the South to the GOP for a generation.

Though he misunderestimated.

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## shanbaum

> Wow, I guess I'm the only one who (accurately) recalls the Democrat-controlled Congresses of the '80s.


You mean those Democrat-controlled Congresses that blocked Reagan's tax cuts, welfare reforms, and military spending increases?

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## drk

You go back further than I was intending.  I was thinking more 1960's/70's/80's with the likes of Sam Nunn or even Kennedy or Johnson, for that matter.  They look quite conservative, today.

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## chip anderson

Vote just indicates that all the Republicans can think, and only a few (God bless the few) Democrats can.

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## shanbaum

> You go back further than I was intending. I was thinking more 1960's/70's/80's with the likes of Sam Nunn or even Kennedy or Johnson, for that matter. They look quite conservative, today.


_Johnson_ looks conservative?  You've got to be joking.  He was the Greatest American Socialist (and I mean that in a good way).

I agree that Nunn was a particularly thoughtful politician.  

I think the liberal dems (e.g.. Eleanor Roosevelt) saw Kennedy as a centrist (and not a liberal) back in 1960.

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## drk

Yeah, Johnson's Great Society (?) was a big deal, but he was correct on civil rights, and he could kick *** with the best of them in Viet Nam.  What democrat today can hold Johnson's jock?:bbg:

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## karen

> Sorry, but that vote was 96-3; you'll have to find another to disprove the charge.


Perhaps I did not express myself well or was illustrating the oblique side of the point.  "We" voted to confirm someone we know would likely not agree with conservative views because she was QUALIFIED.  Is Samuel Alito not qualified?????

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## karen

> Yes, Shanbaum.  The "conservative democrat" used to be a good type of politician.  What ever happened to those?  Who is to blame?


My esteemed boss used to be one of those.  He says "the party left me, I didn't leave the party"

Seriously Spex, some of the Democrats have been a bit cruel about him-how do you feel about that?  Do YOU think all the civil rights progress we have made will be lost?

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## chip anderson

Yes bless old Lindon, master of buying votes. Master of having a war and tying the hands of the combatants on our side. Elected to congress by 87 votes in green ink written in the same hand, the court house with the records mysteriously burned down the night before the recount. A man who kicked the shins (literally) of smaller men in the Senate until they voted his way. A man who kept the war going so that his wife's stock in Brown and Root would continue to rise doing construction in Viet Nam. (I have never met a black Viet Nam veteran who didn't hate Lindon's Guts). The man who gave us a ridiculously expensive but ineffective and useless chain link fence around all federal hiways. The man who had The LBJ space center in Houston built on his land. Lindon is responsible for the fact that you (and your fast food center) can't fire an incompetent employee for fear of a discrimination suit. Lindon is why your tax bill is 55% of your income to support those who make more money on public assistance than they can working. 

Lindon who by his own admission didn't run for another term because he had done such a bad job he felt the country would have a revolution. 

I can remember my dear old 11th grade history teacher, the most staunch Democrat I ever met, when I posed the question at Kennedy's election what would happen if Kennedy got shot. Her reply: "I think it would be tragic."

Just ask any old person who grew up in Texas (I did) how wonderful Lindon was.

Chip

P.S. I still think Lady Bird paid for Kennedy's assignation.

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## Judy Canty

Chip,

Lyndon.

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## Spexvet

> My esteemed boss used to be one of those. He says "the party left me, I didn't leave the party"


I don't know your boss, but my guess is maybe he started making too much money to continue with Democratic values. How, specifically, did the party "leave him"?




> Seriously Spex, some of the Democrats have been a bit cruel about him-how do you feel about that?


Cruel shmuel. How did the Gigrich republicans treat the Clintons, even before Lewinski? Was it cruelty to interpret Alito's actions as racist? You judge:

*



Civil Rights: In the area of civil rights law, Judge Alito consistently has used procedural and evidentiary standards to rule against female, minority, age, and disability claimants.
			
		

* 

http://www.americanprogress.org/site...8OVF&b=1309257



> Do YOU think all the civil rights progress we have made will be lost?


Yes, especially women's.




> For most Americans, the Supreme Court is the place where our rights are protected and our laws are enforced. While many of us assume that our rights will always be secure, the stark reality is that many of our hard-won protections are hanging by a thread. 
> 
> The National Partnership for Women & Families has worked tirelessly to preserve and expand laws that have been critical to womens progress. But the replacement of just one or two Supreme Court justices could fundamentally alter protections that we now take for granted. The selection of the next justice to the Supreme Court matters  it matters for women, it matters for families, it matters for every everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> *1. FAMILY & MEDICAL LEAVE ACT*
> 
> The groundbreaking Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA) has been instrumental in helping women and men balance their work and family responsibilities. More than 50 million Americans have used this unpaid leave to care for a seriously ill family member or spend time with a new baby. In a six to three decision, Nevada Dept. of Human Resources v. Hibbs, 538 U.S. 721 (2003), the Court ruled that state employees could challenge their state employers for violating their right to the FMLA. A contrary opinion would have deprived five million workers and their families of this important protection. 
> ...


I lost the link to this and I don't have time to find it again.

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## k12311997

Spexvet,

Our government was not created to be a nanny state.  Why must every one be given any thing? What happened to working hard and reaping the benefits and paying your own way?

Your posts lead me to believe that you would also defend communisim.

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## karen

> I don't know your boss, but my guess is maybe he started making too much money to continue with Democratic values. How, specifically, did the party "leave him"?


Ummm, it's only because you don't know him that I won't sock you for that one.  He happens to be a true example of the American Dream.  Making too much money to continue with Democratic values?????  So those Hollywood Dems are just pretending?  You mean Alec Baldwin and George Clooney are faking it????

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## karen

> http://www.americanprogress.org/site...8OVF&b=1309257
> 
> 
> Yes, especially women's.


Ok I looked at that link and when someone who is "non partisan" talks about
"challenging conservative thinking that undermines the bedrock..." it leads me to believe they might be a bit less partisan than they claim.

Why don't you look up www.SilentNoMoreAwareness.org and look at a group of women who feel a bit differently about rights and choices. 

If your wife wanted an abortion and tried to keep it from you how would you feel?

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## Pete Hanlin

Of the five "rights" (interesting word, that) listed, #5 is the only one I would be against losing.  

As to that word "right," though: Affirmative Action is a "right?"  Really?  So as a minority, one has a "right" to expect special consideration for certain jobs.  Minority contractors have a "right" to win contracts even when they are underbid?  

Family Leave is a "right?"  I have the "right" to expect my employer to keep my job for me if I need to attend to a family matter?

Unfettered access to all medical treatments is a "right?"

We all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (of course, under our current laws, not everyone has the right to life- at least not if you haven't managed to push yourself out of the womb yet).  I do not believe, however, that I have the right to "guaranteed" happiness- nor happiness that comes at the expense of other's happiness.

In short, we have (and should have) anti-discrimination laws.  We should NOT have quotas or special hiring considerations.  Its great to have access to medical care, but its not my right to expect that this care should be provided unconditionally.  All people have a right to a shot at life- even if it is inconvenient for the person who harbors me for my first nine months (the mother also has a right to life, which means if the pregnancy threatens that life, then measures are in order).

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## karen

Spexie, I am off to Florida until Wednesday so if I don't come back to wrestle with you 'til then you know why.  Looking forward to seeing what I missed when I get back!

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## drk

Pete:

"You are correct, sir"

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## rep

> Every republican voted to confirm Sam Alito. 
> 
> Do any of these robots ever think for themselves, or do they just do what they're told (or bribed) to do?


Lock step is based on your political position, now isn't it?

Alito was confirmed by the Senate in the exact same 58-42 vote that Robert Bork got (except reversed this time!). 

Right out of the box Alito votes against Roberts and Thomas. 

Lock step again.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...nal/TopStories

Rep

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## Spexvet

> Ok I looked at that link and when someone who is "non partisan" talks about
> "challenging conservative thinking that undermines the bedrock..." it leads me to believe they might be a bit less partisan than they claim.
> 
> Why don't you look up www.SilentNoMoreAwareness.org and look at a group of women who feel a bit differently about rights and choices. 
> 
> If your wife wanted an abortion and tried to keep it from you how would you feel?


I would not have married someone who would do something of that magnitude without consulting her husband. My wife and I are anti-abortion. We are also pro-choice. The women on the site that you cite made a choice. I'm sure there's a site for women who regret having kept their fetuses and raised them, or regret putting them up for adoption, though I don't know of any first hand.

Please post a partisan site that defends Alito's position and history on civil rights.

What about the rest of the points? Are you willing to be passed over for promotion just because you are a woman? To be paid less? My understanding od Alito's history is that he usually sides with the corporation or government, and does not stand up for the rights of common folk. Do you support that way of thinking for a Supreme Court Justice?

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## Spexvet

> Of the five "rights" (interesting word, that) listed, #5 is the only one I would be against losing.  
> 
> As to that word "right," though: Affirmative Action is a "right?" Really? So as a minority, one has a "right" to expect special consideration for certain jobs. Minority contractors have a "right" to win contracts even when they are underbid? 
> 
> Family Leave is a "right?" I have the "right" to expect my employer to keep my job for me if I need to attend to a family matter?
> 
> Unfettered access to all medical treatments is a "right?"
> 
> We all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (of course, under our current laws, not everyone has the right to life- at least not if you haven't managed to push yourself out of the womb yet). I do not believe, however, that I have the right to "guaranteed" happiness- nor happiness that comes at the expense of other's happiness.
> ...


We have had anti-discrimination laws for a long time, and discrimination happens every day. What alternative do you suggest? Have a law, and when a business owner who does business in an area that is 40% minority has a 100% white workforce, accept his explanation that these white folks were all the best qualified? It's a little naive to think that the Chip Andersons of the world will hire minorities if they are not FORCED to.

As for calling them "rights", I will say that I used the site as an example and do not support everything on there. I support the concepts - they all sound like good things to me. Do you, Pete, want to back away from the concepts listed?

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## chip anderson

Spexvet:
It will not be Alito's job to "support the little guy."   It will not be Alito's job to "support big business."   It will not be Alito's job to "support religion."  It will not be Alito's job to support previous interpretations of the law by other courts.
It will not be Alito's job to support abortion.   It will not be Alito's job to support pro-choice.

*It will be Alito's job to support and interpret the U.S. Constitution as written.*

While this has appearently been forgotten by some of his predecessors and critics, I am sure he will do this job very well.

Chip

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