# Professional and Educational Organizations > Professional and Educational Organizations Discussion Forum >  Should ABO require an AS for certification?

## hcjilson

Given the fact that education can be the salvation of Opticianry as a profession and * provided* anyone currently in the system through alternative methods (apprentices)	 is grandfathered, should ABO require an AS for certification?

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## Judy Canty

I think I understand where you're going with this poll, however, keep in mind that the ABO exam as written is designed to test minimum competency and nothing more.  That is the reasoning behind the implementation of practical examinations by individual states.  The only thing that will save Opticianry are Opticians viewing themselves as professionals deserving of a post-secondary education.  Remember, not too many years ago, refracting was going to "save" Opticianry and few Opticians took that seriously enough to invest in the class time.  Most large employer groups  and student Opticians are looking for the fastest way to obtain a license when it is required and a good solid education is not it.  Until we change that mindset, simply raising the educational requirement for the ABO will not suffice.

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## MVEYES

You bring up realistic situations about the "optician" who is looking for the fastest way to a license. Don't you think ABO/NCLE should be a leader in the educational standard of our profession? I would definitely say that the national organization that represents my views would be looking to the future and that future would include an increase in education standards.



:cheers: Jerry

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## Rich R

I realize that the ABO represents the minimum requirement for Opticianry, the problems I see daily are ABO opticians that are not able to use a lensometer or do easy repair work or a decent adjustment, seems like many folks get their ABO and have little interest to learn more because it is easy to earn credits to keep certification. I'm in favor that the ABO should make it a little tougher to keep our certification.
Rich R

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## hcjilson

Judy et al,
I don't think we can wait for opticians to do it themselves.The ABO ( and I'm not in my office so I can't read what the certificate says) said something about fostering collegiate education.(I will read it tomorrow and make correction if necessary-my certificate was in 1972)
It is apparent that the minimum competency level is low enough to allow certification to all who spend a minimum time preparing.This has served to water down the "professional" status of opticians.

If you consider that it will be nigh to impossible to raise the bar through legislation of the individual license states, then the only avenue left to do this are the credentialing organizations.Either this is a worthwhile goal, or it is not.*That*  is where I am going with this.I am encouraged to see we all are in agreement with this (so far!)It is my hope that all who visit this forum will respond with their gut feeling-Not to be confused with "Is it possible", which is something WE can make happen.

best  to all from hj

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## kjw1231

Speaking a licensed and A.S. Ophthalmic Dispenser, you would think that I would be all over the A.S. requirement. However, ECC's Ophthalmic Dispensing program, which combined with another Dispensing program (that closed shop a few years ago), is graduating 8 students this year. The year after they have 9 students. There is rumor that if the program cannot get any more interest, then it will be shut down. Until there is a National standard, then there is no hope.

I believe that there should be 3 degree programs for Opticinary, they are:

1. Certificate program- by mail or attendance. 18 months is plenty of time to pass the ABO/NCLE.

2. A.S.- Attend school for 2 years taking optics courses and a refraction course.

3. B.A.- After the 2-year program, a B.A. is awarded as a Ophthalmic Technician and JCAHPO certification is also granted.

A prospective student can go to a Technical College and get a degree in computers and make more than an Optician can. 

I guess the next question would beis low enrollment good for Opticianry? Either:

1.	The demand will be higher as less graduate, so salaries should be higher as a result.

--OR (the most likely)

2.	If enrollment in an A.S. Optical Program continues to decline, there will be a national lobby by the chains to remove the licensing component for all states. I can foresee the chains making this argument and the ABO or other Groups will cave in.

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## MVEYES

Strength is in numbers. I think that you and I and Harry and all the rest of us should write a letter to ABO/NCLE with our concerns and demand that the issue of formal education be visited and acted on by their board. If we can finally get the momentum moving in our direction the chains could latch on to the fact that by having an educated optician working for them the public will perceive them as a "quality" operation. Great marketing tools like that would certainly gain them market share and respectibility (bringing return business). Any smart business executive knows that the public demands quality over price. Quality comes from an educated dispenser.


:cheers: Jerry

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## hcjilson

Jerry et al,

The purpose of this thread is to get a handle on the opinion of a cross section of our members, not to take action.

ABO/NCLE etc have brought this profession where it is today.While it falls far short of perfection, the profession is a lot better off than it would have been without them.

Forward thinking opticians can do a lot to shape the future of Opticianry.This can take place through a leadership effort.Leadership is accomplished by *pulling*  not pushing.It will be counterproductive to *demand*  anything.

Kevin, there are many reasons for a declining enrollment in Optical schools.An overall decline in all healthcare enrollments, poor recruitment efforts by the institutions, poor compensation of the profession as a whole, the economics of earning while you learn (apprenticeship) vs a 2 year program, and finally a system which allows the employers low employment costs....are the major reasons for this decline.

To hear that the viable programs of Erie, and Quinsigamond have fallen on hard times is indeed bad news.They along with the others have given us our best opticians.What a shame this is!

hj

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## Laurie

On a positive note, I want to let you know that not all schools are declining.  In fact, those colleges involved with distance learning will tell you that enrollment is way up.

Our enrollment has tripled since implementing distance learning, and we have held these numbers for two years now.

I voted yes, although I realize that it won't just happen by asking for it.

It is good to see the general concensus on this board turn around in regard to formal education for opticians.

: )

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## MVEYES

We have five schools in Ohio with the Opticianry program. They all seem to be struggling for enrollment. There numbers have been flat as far as increasing class size. If you have a magic bullet to improve these numbers, could you contact them and advise them on a program of recruitment. You can find them at our state web site under opticianry schools OAO.ORG  .



 :Cool:  Jerry

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## Joann Raytar

I have to agree with Judy concerning the goal of the ABO.

There is one point that bugs me.  The fact that the only some of licensed states have a next step, practical exams.  Wouldn't the next step to the ABO be a national practical?  That way, the criteria that could differentiate licensed from unlicensed states, until there is national licensure, would be mandatory formal education.

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## Laurie

Hi Jerry,

I just noticed that you wanted me to reply to the condition of the opticianry schools...

better late than never?


We have no magic bullet, just alot of hard work.  I have already communicated with Dawn Defalco from Owens...

She is on the right path, getting involved with the NFOS.  The other colleges need to attend our meetings.  We have already created the materials, but it is not a turn-key degree.  Each college will have to work with the materials and fine tune them so they work in their area.

If you communicate to these educators, the message is without a doubt distance learning.  It is alot of hard work, but will turn their program around.  I will work with them, but they need to come to the meetings...

Laurie

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## GatorGirl

I vote yes, even though I had a comment with it.  We can not expect this any time soon.  With the exception of Laurie's program, there are limited access to formal education in Florida except for Tampa and Miami.  If people are aware the program, great, but if not they are screwed. :Mad:  

Education is the way to go, but the oppportunity needs to be reachedable to all.  

The reason I know so few people know about Lauries's program is that I had someone call my office and question me about formal education.  She told me she had call several other places and they told her the only way to get it was to go to Tampa or Miami.(by the way I told her Laurie's name and how to find the optiboard)



Just had to put my two cents in

Christina

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## Laurie

We can always use the plug.

Now opticians in Florida can earn apprenticeship hours as well by taking our courses.  It takes a long time to get the word out, and I really appreciate your help!

: )

Laurie

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## GatorGirl

I think anything we can do to make things better is important.  My question is how are we going to promote this in Northern Florida.

Christina 

ps I might be in class in August if all works out:bbg:

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## MVEYES

The question should be how are we going to accomplish this nationally?





:D Jerry

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## Laurie

Hi Christina and Jerry,

Christina, are you going to be an "in-house student" or an "Internet student"?

We can provide access to opticianry education now to anyone in the country.  The only difference is cost, where out of state residents have to pay a higher tuition rate...

All Internet students have to come to Tampa or Ft. Myers the first day for orientation and registration, and the rest is done by watching videotapes, working with us via the Internet, Proctors and hands-on locations around the state.

The state optician associations are a good place to get the word out.

Jerry, to accomplish this nationally, we need more people from the colleges to attend the nfos meetings and develop their plan.  In fact, I am flying up to North Carolina in two weeks to meet with the nfos distance learning committee to finish up the lab practicals.  If you can get ahold of any of the program directors of the optical programs in your state and ask them to contact me, I will be happy to help get them started.


Laurie : )

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## MVEYES

Could you post a link to your website?



:cheers: Jerry

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## chip anderson

Laurie:

Does your course include real life dispensing including frame repair, optical math,  etc?


Could you post a curriculum outline?

Chip

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## MVEYES

What kind of tuition do you have for out of state students?





:cheers: Jerry

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## Laurie

Hi guys,

Our distance learning degree includes all of the stuff our "in-house" degree offers.  The only difference is that the students do their labs off site, with experienced opticians we help set them up with.

Attached is an information packet...

In-state tuition:  $55.00 per credit, plus $20.00 per course technology fee

Out of state tuition:  $165.00 per credit, plus $20.00 per course technology fee

Soon we will graduate our very first class!  (they started in August 200).  Look for pictures and story in Vision Monday which will be submitted by the fabulous Karlen Lamparelli.

: )

Laurie

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## Lee Prewitt

As someone who has an AS in OPtical Technology, as well as 20 years experience, I feel that I am better off as a more "complete" Optician.  By having training in Optics, lab work ( hey!, we had to hand surface a glass slab off), contact lens fabrication, as well as dispensing, my graduating classmates were far ahead of others entering our field.  By the way, this was in OR, a non licensed state.  Nearly all of them entered the field as managers for various optical shops.

If the ABO doesn't see fit to pass AS requirement, the minimum should include a National Practicum.  Just passing a multile choice exam is not enough.  What good is passing a minimum compentacy exam if you have no skill in applying it?  I can tell you from experience here in WA state that the state license test really challenged your competency, especially the practical.

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## MVEYES

Bravo!







:cheers: Jerry

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## bren_03825

Unfortunately, my state (NH) has no licensing, but does have registration. The only problem is that ANYONE at all can pay $100
and become a Registered Optician.  There are no learning requirements, except ce to keep registration.  Avg salary for an optician is 17-22K/yr.  Anything we can do to promote minimum ed requirements, and professional status, will help us all!

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## MVEYES

You're absolutely right . 



> Anything we can do to promote minimum ed requirements, and professional status, will help us all!


I hope that we continue to move the educations standards to higher levels. We all have to keep demanding it.




:cheers: Jerry

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## tmorse

No matter what educational requirements are placed on ABO/NCLE credentials the fact remains that opticians belong to a unique category that cannot really be considered a "profession".

Professionals in a "profession" generally sell their time and knowledge base to the public but opticians as a rule donate their time to the public. 


The mark-up on lenses, frames and extras are similar in nature to any retail shop. There is no "Dispensing Fee" charged for our knowledge such as in pharmacy. Indeed, frame adjustment and minor repairs are often done at no charge. Do you know any doctors or massage therapists or garage mechanics that give away their time? 

In Canada, Doctor eyewear Rx mistakes are paid for by the retail opticial and his lab, rather than by the offending optometrist/ophthalmologist.


It strokes the ego to label oneselve a professional ina profession but I would submit that we must change the way we conduct ourselves in the marketplace.

So first things first...opticianry should bein a campaign that from this date forward, no more freebies. Professionals charge for their time and expertise and thereby claim "profession" status. We have yet to jump that hurdle.

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## Alan W

No question in my mind that an A.S. Degree is prerequisuite for certification.

Let's see . . .

John Doe, Certified by The American College of Brain Surgeons, medical degree pending!

It ain't going to happen.

How can a person get certified and not get a recognized education?  Would someone please identify the allied health care profession that allows it? And, if so, does that profession provide a service that deals with the only sensory organ that is part of the brain? It isn't a toe, an ear, or anything I've learned about. 

In a sense this swings right back to the status of the optician in general. Opticianry has allowed itself to be professionally compromised so long that it simply doesn't see itself getting any higher on the totem pole than a frame seller. Frankly, (I've been brutally accused of being an elitest in the past so here goes) an uneducated optical worker, or one who can't pass the finals at a two year degree conferring school ain't, and here it comes . . . an optician!
It has been 37 years since I got my degree as an optician. That's plenty of time for a ton of people to get smartened up. Anyone who didn't do so between 1968 and right now gets no respect from me unless he/she can pass the same exams I had to pass.

Oh, but, one may say . . . 50 years experience is the equiv.
OK . . . Take the final exams. Let's see how many pass them without attending the classes. That's the acid test of experience to me. If they pass them in the same ratio  as the formal class attendees, then I'll concede.

It bugs me....really bugs me to see some individual study the manual that gets them to the ABO door but can't calculate vertical imbalance under fire, and then they say to the patient ...."You have to get used to it."
I also see that person as a breach of professional integrity as well as a genuine risk to the public, when he/she can't communicate critical technical issues to another professional, like the prescribing doctor, requesting an executive decision on a remake! 

Am I alone thinking this way?

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## jediron

Alan: said
It has been 37 years since I got my degree as an optician. That's plenty of time for a ton of people to get smartened up. Anyone who didn't do so between 1968 and right now gets no respect from me unless he/she can pass the same exams I had to pass.

This is just my opinion but I think Alan if you had a majority of the people in the optical profession today have to take the tests you and I had to take I doubt if 50% would pass. I had to take 4 and half days of testing in N.Y. in 73. 

National Lic. Great idea now what is the next step? We have had this discussion many times in the past and the one issue that never seems to resolve itself is: WHAT'S NEXT? I have seen this national issue come on this board for years now and nothing has been done. Apathy is rampant.
If you you want to get something done then lets get it done. The next step is critical. You have to settle on what is the next step and go to the second and third, so forth and so forth. Without getting to this we are all just whistling in the wind.


"When you look in a mirror you don't always see what you want to see" :Rolleyes:

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## hcjilson

Jediron,

Just out of curiosity, what took 4 1/2 to test? I do remember hearing horor stories about the NY exam but not a test lasting 4.5 days.Even physician's boards don't take that long. Thinking back on what was tested, how much of that was necessary to be a good optician?

hj

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## wmcdonald

States License professionals, the US Government typically does not. We may can achieve a national certification program that is acceptable to all parties, but never a national "license". Prior to any of that meaning a damn thing, we MUST get an education. Most Opticians do not know the powers of a lens in a meridian. I see it every time I lecture, which is a considerable amount. How can they analyze an Rx if we cannot understand basic Optics. I do not blame the Opticians, but all of us who stood by while the profession declined to nothing more than the "selling" of spectacles and contact lenses. We made a huge mistake when we separated the two main tasks performed by Opticians, spectacle and contact lens design and fitting into separate areas. I hear all the time the trem "contact lens fitter"...ugh! Do you hear Doctor of Optometry and contact lens fitter? NO. You get the point? Opticians do only 2 things...we need training in those areas in an academic setting before any license or certificatin will mean anything to anyone but us. I see many lectureres with this alphabet soup behind their names, and if it makes them feel better about themselves, them go for it. But as a profession, we must develop an educational system that can properly train our people, and prove our worth to those who employ us. Sorry for the venting, but I am passionate about improving Optician's opportunities. The future depends on what we do today.

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## jediron

hcjilson said:

 Jediron,

Just out of curiosity, what took 4 1/2 to test? I do remember hearing horor stories about the NY exam but not a test lasting 4.5 days.Even physician's boards don't take that long. Thinking back on what was tested, how much of that was necessary to be a good optician?

Hcjilson we took two tests per day. Monday (I'm trying to remember it was awhile ago 1973) was Math in the morning and English in the afternoon. Tuesday was Geometric Optics in the morning and the afternoon was Contact lenses. Wed. was Physiology and Anatomy of the Eye. Afternoon was Lenses
Thurs. was morning only. Practical exam was made up of instruments like keratometer, lensometer which we had to identify and point out the different working parts then we had to identify different lenses such as ultex K, Ribbon segs ect. After that each instructor threw questions out at you and last but not the least we had to adjust a couple pair of glasses. One I remember was a Ronwin Shurset and the other was a Ronsir.
  :bbg:  
P.S. Each test was 100 questions you had to get at least a 70 
on all tests to pass the boards. Out of my class of 1973.  95 from
Erie Community College took the test, 10 passed fron the June testing. You could not take the test again till Dec. and you did not find out you test results till 3 and half months later. 
The New York city group fared no better, I believe they had 150
but I can't remember and I think they had 10-20 pass.

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## hcjilson

Thinking back on what was tested, how much of that was necessary to be a good optician?Ribbon segs and Ultex bifocals A & K have very little to do with the practice of opticianry today.Were one  piece bifocals any better than fused? Who needs a ribbon seg today?.....who needed one 40 years ago? My point is that the length of a test has no relation to its validity.....although NY opticans have always maintained they were better!:D :D 

I used to think so too until I had the privlidge of running a subsidiary of EBMeyrowitz and working with many fine NY opticians.Then I found that we all needed to know the same thing to do our jobs and they were no better (or worse) prepared than my MA staff, me included...and I was by no means the best optician on the staff.

What we should be talking about are ONE set of standards for all opticians that are valid today and will be valid in 40 years. Today that means an AS degree with final exams at the end of each semester, and one exam at the completion of the program which will test competency on the same plane.

What we have now is a mish mash. We still have states who say the practice is different in their state than it is in any other. This is IDIOCY! It is allowed to continue by those who would use their licensing laws to restrain trade in their own bailiwicks. Little by little, the states are beginning to come around to one way of thinking but I doubt I will live to see the day where a state like Florida will accept any other credentials without making the applicant jump through many unecessary hoops to practice there.

When a registation board chairman can tell me
with a straight face that PD's are taken differently in his state than in mine (absolute true story and it took place in front of another optiboard member who can verify it) I think we have a long way to travel. One of the things that will stop this cr*p from being diseminated is the adoption of an education reguirement which will be the same for ALL states.

I in no way mean to denigrate the NY state exam past or present but the fact remains that we all do the same thing, pretty much in the same manner and its about time that those in charge of credentialing got off their high horses and did something positive about upgrading this profession.

Sorry to be so long winded 

hj

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## jediron

hcjilson said:
thinking back on what was tested, how much of that was necessary to be a good optician?Ribbon segs and Ultex bifocals A & K have very little to do with the practice of opticianry today.Were one piece bifocals any better than fused? Who needs a ribbon seg today?.....who needed one 40 years ago? My point is that the length of a test has no relation to its validity.....although NY opticans have always maintained they were better!  

Hcjilson I never said I was better than anyone else. You asked me what testing I had to go through to get my degree and take the boards. The length of the test did have validity in testing our knowledge of the occupation we were going to enter. There are many times I had to fall back on my learning to figure out a slab off and many other things. The math and accounting I took has helped me every day. The accounting practices helped me in running a business. The Physiology and Anatomy of the eye helped me to understand the inner workings of the eye giving me a better understanding of why some people complain about certain aliments. It also gave me the confidence and skill to enter a profession that I am proud of. Maybe you just ran into Opticians from New York who did think they were better. But I learned a long time ago it's not how much you learn, it's what you learned and how you applly it to your profession and life. The last ingredient is to keep on learning. Just because I have a college degree has not stopped me from continuing to evolve and learn to be an even better Optician. Changes in lenses, frames and how to run your business, by selling glasses and contact lenses are all part of the learning process. I have not stopped learning and I hope I never do.

:bbg:

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## hcjilson

my remarks in this thread. I was trained by a NY optician  who was working for my father way back in 1959-62. His name was Don Call and I later worked for him part time when he opened a shop in Amherst which was proof to me that he trusted what I learned:D :D 

He instilled in my phsyche that NY Opticians were the best in the world! This opinion was held and promulgated by many I came into contact with in the early years. Also at that time EB Meyrowitz was considered to be the pinnacle of Opticians, followed closely by Montgomery Frost Llyods in Boston, and Wall and Ochs (sp) in Philadelphia.

The reputation of New York opticians was earned and well deserved. Let my state my premise a little differently by saying this instead.

"It came as somewhat of a shock to me to find out that I was just as good as they were"... but I KNEW I couldn't be that good because I still made the occasional dumb mistake....then I found out that we ALL do that.

Let me repeat- 

 I in no way mean to denigrate the NY state exam past or present but the fact remains that we all do the same thing, pretty much in the same manner and its about time that those in charge of credentialing got off their high horses and did something positive about upgrading this profession.

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