# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Is Opticianry Dead?

## Diopterman

Is Opticianry dead?

Why?


Why not?

Discussion.......

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## wmcdonald

We are at a precarious place in our history. If we do not improve in many areas, we will continue to mean less and less in the marketplace. It takes little to no preparation to become an Optician (27 states require a pulse) and the level of knowledge continues to decline due to this continuing love of the antiquated apprenticeship system to train the majoriity who enter. This system was replaced decades ago by every other health-related group EXCEPT us. Why, because in this technological age, it has been clearly shown to be an ineffective and inefficient method. We must formally educate and train our people to gain a better understanding of the field. Unfortunately many Opticians do not know what they do not know because they have never been exposed to much of it. Opticians can expand our roles and become more than we are, but it will not be given to us. We must work towards higher standards and have the vision to move forward. My son and daughter-in-law have just entered Opticianry school, and I am proud they are following me. I want them to succeed, and know there will always be a place for folks to dispense eyeglasses, but I want more for them and the future Optician than just that paycheck. We were once on a higher plane, and I want to see us get back there. It is up to us.

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## Barry Santini

Opticians have to provide added value that both their employer and their customers recognize, appreciate and are willing to pay for.

No amount of certification/education/scope of practice increase will ever replace this fundamental, especially now with online encroaching.

I'm not at all trivializing what Dr. McDonald and others are tryin to do.  IMHO, there are more than a few ingredients to our recipe of survival.

B

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## wmcdonald

I agree, Barry, but to quantify that is very subjective. Until we legitimize urselves in every jurisdiction in America we will have little say in what happens around the country, unlike pharmacy, nursing, dental hygeine and everyone else EXCEPT us. Customer service is important everywhere, but the others got it, while wew continue to wallow in mediocrity.

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## jediron1

> I agree, Barry, but to quantify that is very subjective. Until we legitimize urselves in every jurisdiction in America we will have little say in what happens around the country, unlike pharmacy, nursing, dental hygeine and everyone else EXCEPT us. Customer service is important everywhere, but the others got it, while wew continue to wallow in mediocrity.



When you continue to get places like the Evil Empire and your Big Boxes trivializing the need to get a license then you get a populace that says I'm only dealing with a clerk who hasn't a clue on what there doing. Look at my area, the Empire has gone out of it's way to hire non-licensed RM's and intentionally telling them to get rid of the experienced help. When you do that instead of having a place where knowledge is passed down from master  you have an area that is getting to the point of almost extinction. The baby boomers
 the largest segment of people who are retiring or thinking about it are basically th
e people who are know being shifted out of a position by people who couldn't tell a PD sti
ck from Slap stick. When you start to have shortages because of short sited corporate elit
es who only think of the short term on filling there pockets and not for the long term out come as the industry as a whole!

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## Judy Canty

Big box retailers only control our profession to the extent that we allow them to.  Stop feeding them and force their products back into their locations alone.  Demand college education as the only acceptable education requirement for admission to state board examinations. Refuse to hire "opticians" who are not properly educated. Make the effort to strengthen state and national Optician-centric associations by being an active member. Educate your customers on what it is that you do and why you do it better than anyone else. Never stop learning.

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## wmcdonald

jediron1 has a point, and I loved the old masters as much as anyone. Unfortunately, there are no more of those, and if there were, the technology has grown to the point where it is almost impossible to impart the material in that fashion. 

CuriousCat is correct. We control our destiny and can improve, and the vehicle we need is education. The pharmacists work in big-box stores, but still advance their educational levels, and so can we. It is not going to be easy, but we can do it!

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## anthonyf1509

> Demand college education as the only acceptable education requirement for admission to state board examinations. Refuse to hire "opticians" who are not properly educated. Make the effort to strengthen state and national Optician-centric associations by being an active member. Educate your customers on what it is that you do and why you do it better than anyone else. Never stop learning.


Agree and slightly disagree. My father never finished high school, he could teach and pass any and every exam/certification so college degree wouldn't be necessary--yet preferred and an advantage, but shouldn't DQ someone. It really only takes the drive and want in learning. If he/she doesn't have it or display it - Bye Bye! I might be harsh but it's my sports background that helps drive me. I'm a master motivater (@ least in my mind ;)

"Be more concerned over the things you can control, than those you cannot and you'll be most successful." 

Opticianry isn't dead...it just doesn't exist at Big Box or Joe Schmoes. I don't care what they're doing down the street or wherever I can't control. Opticianry is alive for those who care, put the time in and make a difference...especially us in positions to hire etc.

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## Judy Canty

Anthony, I can agree with you absolutely.  However, at some point Opticianry has to set the bar for education and as the older master Opticians retire from the field, there is no better time to move to the college-based education model. I am a relative old-timer in the industry and I have seen changes that back in the very early '70's would have been unthinkable.  As our technology advances, so should our education requirements.

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## Barry Santini

Mandating a college diploma before sitting for a state boatd exam is a non-sequitur for me. Keeping in place a 100 question, multiple choice test that does not vett competance and accomplishment is a ripe target to begin on. 

Sure, if I made the test, fewer would pass. But all who did would bring reall value to any place they work.
And bring back the friggin' practical exam...this is a craft-field!

B

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## bman

Anybody see the selling opportunity here?  If you can't differentiate yourself from those who don't know how to fit a pair of frames, sell AR or listen to a patient's optical ergonomics, etc., then your merely competing on price and will lose the sale to the cheapest shop in town anyway.  We are the only shop in town of 20 ODs with dispensaries, 7 of which are real optical shops. that does not take insurance, has never had a 'sale' (since we opened 04/07), doesn't carry a Luxotica product and doesn't discount...And we're doing great.  What sets us apart is service, precision and passion for optics.  In short we like what we do.

I employ and have learned from an optical master (50+ years) and I don't give a whip about licensing and formal education.  How many times has a client asked if you are certified or licensed?  Share your knowledge, demonstrate your skill, don't sell yourself short and optical bliss will follow.

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## chip anderson

Before the Big Boxes we had the OD's.  The OMD's used to be our supporter and we thiers.   Then the OMD's decided to dispense, have tech's refract, and cosyed up to the OD's for surgical referrals.  The OD's cosyed up to the OMD's  for _referral fees_ and _post surgical follow-ups.    
_We opticians never had any money and very little political clout.  Both the OD's and the OMD's  had plenty of both, not to mention a certificercat, and a license.
When we lost the support of the OMD's we lost what little leverage we had.
So yes, we are at least dying.   


Chip

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## LandLord

This is the most true statement in the thread: "Opticians have to provide added value that both their employer and their customers recognize, appreciate and are willing to pay for." -Barry Santini

To answer the original question, opticianry was never really alive to begin with outside the consciousness of opticians. The public has still not learned what an optician is. (They think it means optometrist).

Sadly, the business model of opening a shop, and waiting for an Rx to walk in... that business model is dead.

Opticianry can thrive but it will take a business mentality, not a political mentality. In the political arena, optometry, big box and internet have way more power and visibility than opticianry.

In the business arena, the playing field is level. Not even, but level.  It will take strategic, out of the box thinking to win money, power and prestige.

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## jediron1

> Before the Big Boxes we had the OD's.  The OMD's used to be our supporter and we thiers.   Then the OMD's decided to dispense, have tech's refract, and cosyed up to the OD's for surgical referrals.  The OD's cosyed up to the OMD's  for _referral fees_ and _post surgical follow-ups.    
> _We opticians never had any money and very little political clout.  Both the OD's and the OMD's  had plenty of both, not to mention a certificercat, and a license.
> When we lost the support of the OMD's we lost what little leverage we had.
> So yes, we are at least dying.   
> 
> 
> Chip




I agree Chip! But what most failed to see or comment on was I listed the Evil Empire as number 1 and the Big Boxes 2! What they fail to see is the Empire is hard at work to desensitize the public to the fact you don't need a license because the OD is there, so by process of elimination you get rid of the licensed opticians and put in non licensed sales clerks or frame stylist. Why do you think the Empire hires RM's that have the optical knowledge of a Dodo bird and hire store managers with so little optical knowledge that if it wasn't serious it would be down right laughable.

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## LandLord

"Why do you think the Empire hires RM's that have the optical knowledge of a Dodo bird and hire store managers with so little optical knowledge that if it wasn't serious it would be down right laughable."

Presumably because the Empire wants managers that have managing skills.  Eyeglass sales skills can be had much cheaper.  I don't agree with it, but at least its better than the internet.

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## Audiyoda

Historically the opticians roll has certainly been diminished - but then I think all rolls in optics have been diminished in various ways.
The three O's used to live together nicely. The patient went to the Optometrist for the Rx, went to the Optician to get that filled and went to the Ophthalmologist when a medical necessity arose.Then the Optometrist decided to dispense. Now the Optician cried foul since the Optometrist had a captured audience. But for the most part Opticians just played along and went to work for the optometrist.Then the OMD decided to dispense. Opticians cried even more. Optometrists on the other hand played it smart and got in bed with the OMD to co-manage.Of course we can't forget LensCrafters popped up and brought service down - but we are a society of instant gratification so their business model worked. And Opticians cried even more.Then the bottom-dollar retailer emerged. Basically prostituting the Optometrists services at a bottom dollar rate to get people in the door. Service diminished even more and Opticians cried even more.Among all of this the Optometrist and OMD have had their spats and arguments but for the most part still get along. Opticians on the other hand cry about all of it.The moral: Stop crying and figure out where you fit within this new framework. There are opportunities out there you just need to find them.

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## jediron1

> "Why do you think the Empire hires RM's that have the optical knowledge of a Dodo bird and hire store managers with so little optical knowledge that if it wasn't serious it would be down right laughable."
> 
> Presumably because the Empire wants managers that have managing skills.  Eyeglass sales skills can be had much cheaper.  I don't agree with it, but at least its better than the internet.





You don't have to agree, I don't mind. But I have been there and have seen for what I talk about. We had an RM who came from children's clothing and told us "I don't know anything about optical". As for manager I interviewed with one and associate manager both had no optical knowledge and even told me so. They said if we have too we will study a little book take the Mickey mouse NY board and get our license. Needless to say with that chump I walked out the door! :Nerd:

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## cocoisland58

> If you can't differentiate yourself from those who don't know how to fit a pair of frames, sell AR or listen to a patient's optical ergonomics, etc., then your merely competing on price and will lose the sale to the cheapest shop in town anyway.


This is pretty much how I see it.  I also predict that there will be fewer master opticians hanging out their shingle in years to come but those who do will draw a good niche crowd.  Customers who appreciate craftsmanship, knowledge and service will find their way to you.  Much like those who seek out a good seamstress, shoe repair guy, etc. because you know that is where you go for quality.  How many customers do you know that have worn and depended on glasses most of their lives go to cut rate stores?  Not too many.

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## Johns

> Opticianry can thrive but it will take a business mentality, not a political mentality. In the political arena, optometry, big box and internet have way more power and visibility than opticianry.



The best business practice is to hire the most educated professionals available. It goes without saying that you also, should be as educated as you possibly can be.  It makes no difference what profession you are in.  

The difference between a job and a profession is education.  Simple as that.

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## Chris Ryser

What athread...................so many different opinions and most of them have agood point and and come from a positive opinion that has a good point.





> *The moral: Stop crying and figure outwhere you fit within this new framework. There are opportunities out there youjust need to find them.**
> *




To Barry Santini who has some practical reasoning.......................




> *Sure, if Imade the test, fewer would pass. But all who did would bring reall value to anyplace they work.
> And bring back the friggin' practical exam...this is a craft-field!*
> 
> *IMHO, thereare more than a few ingredients to our recipe of survival.*




From Dr McDonald to Barry Santini all of them have good and validpoints...........................




> *I agree,Barry, but to quantify that is very subjective. Until we legitimize urselves inevery jurisdiction in America we will have little say in what happens aroundthe country, unlike pharmacy, nursing, dental hygeine and everyone else EXCEPTus. Customer service is important everywhere, but the others got it, while wewcontinue to wallow in mediocrity.*




Chip who says.......................................




> *Both the OD'sand the OMD's had plenty of both, not to mention a certificercat, and alicense.
> When we lost the support of the OMD's we lost what little leverage we had.
> **So yes, we are atleast dying.*




and then comes the opposite..................................




> *I employ andhave learned from an optical master (50+ years) and I don't give a whip aboutlicensing and formal education. How many times has a client asked if you arecertified or licensed? Share your knowledge, demonstrate your skill, don't sellyourself short and optical bliss will follow*.




Here is a discussion that does not give a one thought about the most importantpoint that is the origin of all the present problem and that is the economysteering the consumers thinking. Lets not talk about the rich, lets talk aboutthe millions of consumers that need glasses and have to get them.

Do they give a hoot about the qualifications when the can get a pricedifference that has a large multiplier and a quality that is not on the badsite. Can we be honest and try to find a solution that can be accepted by most opticiansNOW and not haggle what would be best in the future. It is the NOW that isimportant.

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## Wes

> The best business practice is to hire the most educated professionals available. It goes without saying that you also, should be as educated as you possibly can be.  It makes no difference what profession you are in.  
> 
> The difference between a job and a profession is education.  Simple as that.


^^^This.

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## optilady1

> To answer the original question, opticianry was never really alive to begin with outside the consciousness of opticians. The public has still not learned what an optician is. (They think it means optometrist).


My grandmother still thinks I'm an obstetrician.  :)

I think as long as there are people willing to stick their neck out and take the risk of owning an independant optical shop, that opticianry will continue to cling to life.  The majority of these businesses will employ well educated opticians, because lets face if, the old salty dogs who are 'master' opticians are retiring, and the only replacement for them are educated opticians.  

If and when we are only left with big box chains and onliners, then we will see the optician go the way of the dinosaur.

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## gatorbait

If the idea is to make a diploma important than we need to increase the amount of colleges as well as make it easier to enroll. I have been trying now for 2 months to study at Hillsborough CC and still have yet to get enrolled. The people in the program for opticianry have been very helpful(the college itself has not). but since I am not local, I cant exactly go visit the Tuition Assistance to get that setup(former military). And they require my high school transcript which my country wont send unless I go in person which is also not local.

Its not easy to get a degree online from a college that is not really setup as an online college which is most opticianry programs unfortunately.

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## Wes

> My grandmother still thinks I'm an obstetrician.  :)
> 
> I think as long as there are people willing to stick their neck out and take the risk of owning an independant optical shop, that opticianry will continue to cling to life.  The majority of these businesses will employ well educated opticians, because lets face if, the old salty dogs who are 'master' opticians are retiring, and the only replacement for them are educated opticians.  
> 
> If and when we are only left with big box chains and onliners, then we will see the optician go the way of the dinosaur.


Dinosaurs didn't go completely extinct.  Look at the crocodile.  Also, they evolved.  Birds...  maybe we need educated master opticians?  That's the goal of the Society to Advance Opticianry.




> If the idea is to make a diploma important than we need to increase the amount of colleges as well as make it easier to enroll. I have been trying now for 2 months to study at Hillsborough CC and still have yet to get enrolled. The people in the program for opticianry have been very helpful(the college itself has not). but since I am not local, I cant exactly go visit the Tuition Assistance to get that setup(former military). And they require my high school transcript which my country wont send unless I go in person which is also not local.
> 
> Its not easy to get a degree online from a college that is not really setup as an online college which is most opticianry programs unfortunately.


From what I hear, Hillsboro CC has all the students it can handle!  Yes, formal schooling in opticianry is alive and well in Florida.  I suggest you pm Laurie Pierce (Laurie) here on ob.  She instructs there, and may be able to assist.

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## gatorbait

I worked for a Master Optician, in fact I was well trained by him. He told me don't bother with ABOM because they have changed it so much now that its not worth it. That if he had to publish papers, he would have never tried.

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## eye2

Wow! Wes and gmc I see the point jediron is making. As for Roy he should have said where he got the quote from and I think all of this could have been avoided. But as Roy said " it's embarrassing " it is having people call themselves opticians and you can't even take a seg height or know how to measure a lined bifocal. Really! But as jediron1 pointed out this is exactly what as he calls The Big Boxes and Empire want. They don't want licensed people, stylists are fine. I know I have been there and seen it.

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## Wes

> I dunno - something about those numbers from this "test in multiple states" seems fishy. It certainly does not seem to fit the bill from a percentage standpoint in the states that I've worked in.


 Have you worked in many licensing states?

FYI, Dr. Roy Ferguson administers the practical exams for several state opticianry boards here in the southeast, South Carolina being one of them. As such, he has access to the results of "tests in multiple states". A visit to either the SC opticians association meeting or the SC board's website to read the minutes confirm his numbers. Going back several years, on average, we have something like a 50% pass rate. Since the implementation of Roy's exam it is closer to 60%. These are rough numbers from memory, but if you wish you can look it up.

Ok, I looked it up: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/POL/Optic...es/minutes.htm
"*The South Carolina Practical Examination in Opticianry* is being administered by TheLearning Curve to 13 candidates on this day, December 6, 2010; *eight of the candidates are**retaking the exam*. The June 7, 2010 Practical Examination was administered to 22
candidates; 12 of the candidates passed"
"
December 7, 2009 Practical Examination – The examination was administered by Dr.Roy Ferguson of The Learning Curve. Seventeen candidates sat for the examination; ten
passed, seven failed."
"
The South Carolina Practical Examination in Opticianry was administered December 11,2008 by Mr. Lee Carter to 21 candidates and resulted in 11 passing and 10 failing the
examination."
"*S.C. Practical Examination:* 
Ms. Combs reported that twenty-four candidates sat for the December 5, 2007 S.C. Practical Examination; sixteen candidates passed and eight candidates failed to pass. Breakdown of results: four candidates failed Neutralization, two candidates failed Prescription Interpretation, and five candidates failed Frame Fitting / Lens Measure. "

Apprenticeship in action. (Or is it inaction?) These tests, especially the one Roy administers are practical tests of situations opticians are faced with on a daily basis.

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## gmc

> As for Roy he should have said where he got the quote from and I think all of this could have been avoided.


What part of this wasn't clear?




> To understand the state of opticianry, consider the person who in the General Optics forum who posted the following:

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## LandLord

Opticianry is not dead, it is just mentally and physically challenged.

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## optilady1

I wish this thread would die.  I'm getting whip-lash and nothing is getting accomplished.  Besides, in about 3 weeks I'm sure there will be an identical arguement that will play out between the usual suspects.  And the cycle will begin again.

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## Diopterman

> I wish this thread would die. I'm getting whip-lash and nothing is getting accomplished. Besides, in about 3 weeks I'm sure there will be an identical arguement that will play out between the usual suspects. And the cycle will begin again.


If you can get past all of the "Mine is bigger than yours" rhetoric, do you have an opinion;

Is Opticianry dead?

What are your thoughts on why or why not? It would be great to hear some others chime in and avoid the mess that this thread has become!

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## optilady1

What are your thoughts on why or why not? It would be great to hear some others chime in and avoid the mess that this thread has become! 


I certainly don't think the career I've spent a lot of time and effort learning and continue to learn is dead-  I'm still here.  But as a whole nothing will change or move forward until it's required to be licensed in each state.  I think the only future opticianry can have is a foundation of education that involves some kind of 'internship' in a real world practical setting. 

But I don't know how to go about implementing such a change.  I'm not knowledgable about these types of things.  I'm lucky I live in a state where the opticians association is very active, and I'm not embarrassed to say I'm content with the small roll I play: I pay my dues, encourage other apprentice opticians to get a formal education, and do my job to the best of ability.  

It might sound hypocrytical to not be willing to be part of a million optician march on the powers that be. I am not at a point in my life where I can help change things, I can only support in the smallest of ways. However I also chose to not live in states that don't have licensing.    

Does that answer your question Diopterman?  I don't think we are dead yet.  But I don't have any answers other than the obvious as to how to change our predicament.  How's that for an honest answer?

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## eye2

> What part of this wasn't clear?




Ok it's all cleared up. My apologies to Roy as jediron1 has already extended the same too Roy. But you missed the point. We were saying and still say it's embarrassing to see these people call themselves opticians as well as who there employers are calling them opticians. As I noted before along with jediron1 we believe the Big Boxes have more to do with this right along with the Empire. You completely or just ignored the fact that I have seen and heard with my own ears the Empire does not care whether there managers or associate managers have licenses as long as they have a licensed Doc. Or in NY one licensed optician on premis. I have seen it and have actually talked to a few of them in the Empire. That does not mean that motivated people can't get there license but when it's made clear they don't care if you have one or not many don't bother. I was told the Empire was only concerned with how good is the bottom line not whether you have a license or don't have a license. Many of the Empires managers and associates managers in NY are not licensed. And many of there RM's for the Empire and Sears optical are also non-licensed, so you have a blanten disregard to try to find licensed people to fill those positions. Just my yapping!  :Cool:

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## Johns

> It might sound hypocrytical to not be willing to be part of a million optician march on the powers that be.


It doesn't sound hypocritical, it sound "silly". (I opted for a gentle word here)

You would have much more impact if you designed a magnetic ribbon type decal that you could affix to the trunk of your car.  It would have the same impact as a march, but you wouldn't have to inconvenience a bunch of folks to go out, on their day off, and actually move.

Or, you could contact Wes, and see if he has any ideas.  The new association he's talking about sounds a bit far fetched, but it just might work.  At least they seem to be going in a positive direction, and not standing around asking "what if".

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## Diopterman

> What are your thoughts on why or why not? It would be great to hear some others chime in and avoid the mess that this thread has become! 
> 
> 
> I certainly don't think the career I've spent a lot of time and effort learning and continue to learn is dead- I'm still here. But as a whole nothing will change or move forward until it's required to be licensed in each state. I think the only future opticianry can have is a foundation of education that involves some kind of 'internship' in a real world practical setting. 
> 
> But I don't know how to go about implementing such a change. I'm not knowledgable about these types of things. I'm lucky I live in a state where the opticians association is very active, and I'm not embarrassed to say I'm content with the small roll I play: I pay my dues, encourage other apprentice opticians to get a formal education, and do my job to the best of ability. 
> 
> It might sound hypocrytical to not be willing to be part of a million optician march on the powers that be. I am not at a point in my life where I can help change things, I can only support in the smallest of ways. However I also chose to not live in states that don't have licensing. 
> 
> Does that answer your question Diopterman? I don't think we are dead yet. But I don't have any answers other than the obvious as to how to change our predicament. How's that for an honest answer?


Thank you!

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## Uilleann

I would be highly interested to see what the results of truly independent testing would be in non-licensed states, using some of the test questions stated earlier.  As far as it's presented here, it raises far more questions than answers about the state of opticianry in licensed states.  One thing this thread has highlighted, is that licensed states in particular have as huge problem with homogeneity across their optical ranks as anyone, and that even licensure doesn't offer any sort of proof of basic knowledge, skill or working ability across state lines.  So the ball comes back to the court of the only national litmus for dispensing in the US - the ABO.  And that, we all agree, is a sad thing.

As it stands today, degrees in "optics" would be best served if you are able to work in the R&D labs of a major lens manufacturer or a chemical company.  You'll have a far better chance at a decent salary.  Apart from that, if you're one of the lucky _few_, and can find that one in a thousand ritzy shop somewhere with the right clientele and an opening, you may do alright dispensing.  But that is not the reality for the vast majority of dispensers - nor will it become so with any amount of education.

Dead is dead.   :Skull:

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## Judy Canty

> Dead is dead.


Then why are you still dispensing?  Shouldn't you be learning to do something else...anything else?

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## LandLord

This is opticianry...

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## LandLord

and this is optometry...

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## Uilleann

> Then why are you still dispensing?  Shouldn't you be learning to do something else...anything else?


Who cares what I do.  :)

Seriously - I'm just fine thanks.   :Wavespin:

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## Judy Canty

I was just curious. You don't seem to be particularly happy with your work. Because you don't see any value in education for Opticians, it has no value to anyone else.  You don't see a future as an Optcian, so no one else has a future in the profession either.

I'm hazarding a guess that you're young enough to make a career change, so I'm asking you why not make that change?

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## Uilleann

> I was just curious. You don't seem to be particularly happy with your work. Because you don't see any value in education for Opticians, it has no value to anyone else.  You don't see a future as an Optcian, so no one else has a future in the profession either.
> 
> I'm hazarding a guess that you're young enough to make a career change, so I'm asking you why not make that change?


This has to win the award for the MOST ABSURD thing I've read all summer long!

Nowhere have I _ever_ said I was unhappy with my work.  Never.

Nowhere have I ever said I saw no value in education of opticians, past or present.  But a two-four year degree to dispense is insane beyond words.

Education can have immense value - but not at the levels suggested by some here for this trade.

Obviously there is a future - but it will be very different from what it has been in decades past.  requiring years upon years of education won't change it...unless of course you work for a school.  At least you can then reap the rewards of greater enrollment.

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## optilady1

> This has to win the award for the MOST ABSURD thing I've read all summer long!
> 
> Nowhere have I _ever_ said I was unhappy with my work. Never.
> 
> Nowhere have I ever said I saw no value in education of opticians, past or present. But a two-four year degree to dispense is insane beyond words.
> 
> Education can have immense value - but not at the levels suggested by some here for this trade.
> 
> Obviously there is a future - but it will be very different from what it has been in decades past. requiring years upon years of education won't change it...unless of course you work for a school. At least you can then reap the rewards of greater enrollment.


You might not say you are unhappy, but your tone says misery.

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## LandLord

If you're happy and you know it clap your hands... :Smile:  :Smile:

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## Uilleann

> You might not say you are unhappy, but your tone says misery.


Ok Mrs Freud.   :Nerd: 

I  must admit complete amazement that you are capable of deducing so much  from the internet.  Most people have extreme difficulty with what you  just managed.  Here I thought I was actually quite happy in my work, _thrilled_ to be working with the group of doctors I get to see every day, _excited_ that we all have an exceptionally close working relationship which extends to the _amazing_ pow in the colder months, and a utterly and completely _awesome_ wife and kiddos at home, along with two of the _coolest_ chocolate labs you could ever hope to meet!

But perhaps you assumed, because I haven't partaken in the mandatory degree for all opticians Kool-Aid that I'm miserable.  If it helps to make you feel better, that's certainly your own prerogative.  :)

----------


## LandLord

boo

----------


## Chris Ryser

This has turned into a real ugly thread,with insults flying up and down. Of course nobody can deny that education in any field  is of benefit to the ones that have it and or are looking for it. 

In my days it was the dream of everyoptician who finished a 3 year apprenticeship, and had a better education than they get these days in manual and theoretic optics, to go to an optics school.

Today's problem is not education, itis the economic situation that is not getting better, but is worsening.Furthermore the large corporations have taken the lead in this industry, notonly in products but also in in retail sales. Within the largest chains you can buy OTC glasses on the general floor or if you choose in the optical department somewhere along the wall. 

In the optical field the major optical corporations control the majority of the wholesale labs and therefore to a certain level also the retail pricing.
These same corporations are also backing, supporting or even owning the on-line optical companies that are growing at rapid speeds fired by the economy sliding into a new recession.

----------


## Johns

> This has turned into a real ugly thread,with insults flying up and down.


I don't think that this thread is any uglier than any other 12+ page thread.  My rule of thumb for appropriateness is whether or not I would say the same thing if I was sitting down and having a conversation with the person.

There's nothing ugly about a spirited exchange between passionate people with differing views.  Actually, it's a thing of beauty!  

You've got to have a thick skin to be in this business anyway.

----------


## kelanor

I think that the scope of opticianry has to change in order for our value to be recognized.

The ability to craft and fit a pair of well made eyewear is not the only skill that makes us stand out, not to our patients, not to our employers, and especially not to the general public.

We need to do MORE.

  I see opticianry moving to a more multifaceted field.  We need to be a lot more flexible about what we are willing to focus our energies on.  Expand into tech roles, vision therapy, or better business skills. Something that sets us apart from frame stylists, in the eyes of the rest of the world.

----------


## Uilleann

> I think that the scope of opticianry has to change in order for our value to be recognized.
> 
> The ability to craft and fit a pair of well made eyewear is not the only skill that makes us stand out, not to our patients, not to our employers, and especially not to the general public.
> 
> We need to do MORE.
> 
>   I see opticianry moving to a more multifaceted field.  We need to be a lot more flexible about what we are willing to focus our energies on.  Expand into tech roles, vision therapy, or better business skills. Something that sets us apart from frame stylists, in the eyes of the rest of the world.


Except that these careers already exist.  If you want to tech, get your COA/COT.  You won't make much however.  If you want to practice vision therapy, get your therapy license.  You'll make more possibly, if you are able to maintain full books, and your patients can/will pay.  If you want to go into business, then do it.  Get your bus. admin degree and see where you want to go - the money isn't in dispensing.

The fact is, that the public is constantly looking for ways to give you LESS compensation for the skills we offer, not more.  More education in their eyes doesn't factor in.  If you really want to make a more consistent paycheck, and want to demand more clout in the public eye then do the time and the class work and finish your _optometry_ schooling.  Simple.

----------


## LandLord

> Except that these careers already exist. If you want to tech, get your COA/COT. You won't make much however. If you want to practice vision therapy, get your therapy license. You'll make more possibly, if you are able to maintain full books, and your patients can/will pay. If you want to go into business, then do it. Get your bus. admin degree and see where you want to go - the money isn't in dispensing.
> 
> The fact is, that the public is constantly looking for ways to give you LESS compensation for the skills we offer, not more. More education in their eyes doesn't factor in. If you really want to make a more consistent paycheck, and want to demand more clout in the public eye then do the time and the class work and finish your _optometry_ schooling. Simple.


completely agree

----------


## jediron1

Chris:
Today's problem is not education, itis the economic situation that is not getting better, but is worsening.Furthermore the large corporations have taken the lead in this industry, notonly in products but also in in retail sales. Within the largest chains you can buy OTC glasses on the general floor or if you choose in the optical department somewhere along the wall. 
In the optical field the major optical corporations control the majority of the wholesale labs and therefore to a certain level also the retail pricing.
These same corporations are also backing, supporting or even owning the on-line optical companies that are growing at rapid speeds fired by the economy sliding into a new recession.






Exactly what I have been saying except Chris put it into clearer terms. It's your Big Boxes and Empire controlling things with complicity or not they are still controlling the license issue and pay issue!

----------


## jediron1

> _Does everyone understand the information I have posted?  These are optical employees with at least three years of experience!  If you understand it, please explain it to me._
> 
> _From a pair of mounted bifocal lenses:__
> __Twenty-five percent cannot neutralize the distance portion of the lenses.__
> __Forty percent cannot determine the add power.__
> __Thirty-five percent cannot measure the distance between 
> optical centers or measure the “near P.D.”_ _
> __Forty-eight percent cannot measure a seg height (+/- 2.0 mm).__[FO
> NT=Tahoma]
> [/FONT]__Twenty-five percent cannot measure the seg width of a visible bifocal._


I agree with you this is embarrassing! How can companies or states that have licensing feel in good conscience that they have adequately taught them the elementary principles of Opticianary with figures like those? If I were the purchasing public I wouldn't know where to go since according to your figures almost half ( I rounded off ) can't do a simple seg height or to measure the width of a lined bifocal. If that be the case how the heck are they going to know a slab off rx and how to figure it out? Or to figure out a simple problem of how much power is in different meridians! Or would they even understand or how to figure out and over refraction? These are not simplistic but you do need knowledge of these so in case the day arises when your confronted with these you know what to do.

----------


## kelanor

> Except that these careers already exist. If you want to tech, get your COA/COT. You won't make much however. If you want to practice vision therapy, get your therapy license. You'll make more possibly, if you are able to maintain full books, and your patients can/will pay. If you want to go into business, then do it. Get your bus. admin degree and see where you want to go - the money isn't in dispensing.
> 
> The fact is, that the public is constantly looking for ways to give you LESS compensation for the skills we offer, not more. More education in their eyes doesn't factor in. If you really want to make a more consistent paycheck, and want to demand more clout in the public eye then do the time and the class work and finish your _optometry_ schooling. Simple.


That was kind of what I meant.

----------


## jediron1

> I think that the scope of opticianry has to change in order for our value to be recognized.
> 
> The ability to craft and fit a pair of well made eyewear is not the only skill that makes us stand out, not to our patients, not to our employers, and especially not to the general public.
> 
> We need to do MORE.
> 
>   I see opticianry moving to a more multifaceted field.  We need to be a lot more flexible about what we are willing to focus our energies on.  Expand into tech roles, vision therapy, or better business skills. Something that sets us apart from frame stylists, in the eyes of the rest of the world.







I heard on the radio a few days ago a guy was touting that he had just passed his NY certification for bring a teacher. He said this was good because most recognize NY state as being the hardest test around there by granting reciprocity. As I pointed out before if you have a test ( and I recommended a four part test ) then you will have a test to replace the ABO and one that would be honored by others as being the best around.

----------


## LandLord

> I heard on the radio a few days ago a guy was touting that he had just passed his NY certification for bring a teacher. He said this was good because most recognize NY state as being the hardest test around there by granting reciprocity. As I pointed out before if you have a test ( and I recommended a four part test ) then you will have a test to replace the ABO and one that would be honored by others as being the best around.


Being honoured might make you feel good but what will it do for your lifestyle?

----------


## jediron1

> Being honoured might make you feel good but what will it do for your lifestyle?






Ok jokester! Honored ( I corrected the spelling ) take out and put in reciprocity! Happy now?

----------


## eye2

> All competency examinations should cover exactly what the approved schools cover. The ABO and NCLE should be put into one big test. The education standards should be in the hands of the educators not in the hands of a few business person.As far as all of us that are in the field and are currently licensed or certified, a gradndfathering clause and be done with this nonsense.
> 
> CNG




If you want one exam then stay with the Mickey Mouse ABO! You can't cover everything in one exam. At minimum it needs four parts and each part a 100 question exam. It's not 
that difficult. In NY it used to be 3 and half days. The first three days were 2 a day 100 q
uestion exams and the last half day was for the practical. I shorten that NY exam to that 
of 3 full exams instead of six we had to take and the practical. One exam would be geom
etric optics, second one would be Opthalmic dispensing as described by Russell Stimson in his book of the same name. Third part would be half lenses and other half contacts. The fourth exam would be the practical. Not that hard to do! And I would get rid of the ABO and replace it with the one I described.  :Smile:

----------


## LandLord

> Ok jokester! Honored ( I corrected the spelling ) take out and put in reciprocity! Happy now?


not joking and not sure what you mean by reciprocity. How does a more difficult test help you if a) the test is voluntary, and b) passing the test doesn't allow you to perform a restricted act.

----------


## LandLord

Honored and honoured both correct.

----------


## jediron1

> not joking and not sure what you mean by reciprocity. How does a more difficult test help you if a) the test is voluntary, and b) passing the test doesn't allow you to perform a restricted act.




Well when I took the NY exam in 1973 it was considered the hardest test around. I then wrote to Arizona and Florida if they would honor my NY test and both said yes. The reason they gave, it was the hardest test in the country. And what do you mean by a restricted act? Actually I'm a little afraid what your answer will be on " to preform a restricted act "

----------


## eye2

> not joking and not sure what you mean by reciprocity. How does a more difficult test help you if a) the test is voluntary, and b) passing the test doesn't allow you to perform a restricted act.




To perform a restricted act? What the heck are you talking about LandLord? Have you not been following the thread? I can think of numinous things that would be a restricted act but in this context haven't a clue what your talking about!   :Banghead:

----------


## Uilleann

> If you want one exam then stay with the Mickey Mouse  ABO! You can't cover everything in one exam. At minimum it needs four  parts and each part a 100 question exam. It's not 
> that difficult. In NY it used to be 3 and half days. The first three days were 2 a day 100 q
> uestion exams and the last half day was for the practical. I shorten that NY exam to that 
> of 3 full exams instead of six we had to take and the practical. One exam would be geom
> etric optics, second one would be Opthalmic dispensing as described by  Russell Stimson in his book of the same name. Third part would be half  lenses and other half contacts. The fourth exam would be the practical.  Not that hard to do! And I would get rid of the ABO and replace it with  the one I described.


Why can't cover it all in one exam?  A truly well-done written component married to a realistic practical would (and I agree _should_)  be an excellent yard stick to measure minimum competencies nationally.   I would choose a different format and scale than that which you propose  above, but regardless of my own concept of true working competency,  that really is the rub of this particular problem.  ABO hasn't ever done it, and they are the only game in town that conceivably would have a chance at pulling it off at present, scary as that is..  

Gaining even the  most basic levels of ECP agreement on what the minimum demonstrable  competencies should be on a national level is a whole different fight to  get through - to say nothing of the mountains of resistance you'll get  from the other O's and retail.  (See above etc. etc.)  To any foolhardy enough to take _that_  gorilla on....best of luck!  :)

----------


## LandLord

eye2 and jediron:

Restricted Acts in Health Care

The act of performing eye surgery - legally restricted to persons with physician license - license requires difficult exam
The act of performing eye exam - legally restricted to persons with optometry license - license requires difficult exam
The act of dispensing eyeglasses - ?

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

[QUOTE=Uilleann;399961]Why can't cover it all in one exam? A truly well-done written component married to a realistic practical would (and I agree _should_) be an excellent yard stick to measure minimum competencies nationally. QUOTE]

When considering an exam for opticians that tests at levels higher than the ABO/NCLE, you must remember that a licensing examination is intended to test *minimum competencies*.  The pass rate for both these tests has hovered in the 50 – 55% rate for decades.  If the content was strengthened, this rate would no doubt plummet.  At that point the test validation would be called into question, exposing the testing agencies to multiple problems.

Since licensing exams are intended to test minimum competencies, the base of knowledge for opticians must be elevated before licensing exams can be toughened.  Otherwise, if the ABO/NCLE pass rate were to suddenly plunge to a 25% pass rate, the test validity would be immediately questioned.  This would hold true for any replacements that were developed.

Opticians’ problems are not related to the ease of the licensing exams.  Opticians have a problem with core knowledge.

Roy

----------


## Uilleann

> When considering an exam for opticians that tests at levels higher than the ABO/NCLE, you must remember that a licensing examination is intended to test *minimum competencies*.  The pass rate for both these tests has hovered in the 50  55% rate for decades.  If the content was strengthened, this rate would no doubt plummet.  At that point the test validation would be called into question, exposing the testing agencies to multiple problems.
> 
> Since licensing exams are intended to test minimum competencies, the base of knowledge for opticians must be elevated before licensing exams can be toughened.  Otherwise, if the ABO/NCLE pass rate were to suddenly plunge to a 25% pass rate, the test validity would be immediately questioned.  This would hold true for any replacements that were developed.
> 
> Opticians problems are not related to the ease of the licensing exams.  Opticians have a problem with core knowledge.
> 
> Roy


Roy,  you make it sound like a no child left behind program.  Is that really your intent?  Seems that others here were looking to make it much harder to become an optician...not easier.  School or no school, if you can demonstrate the competency, then you should be able to test in, and become an "official" optician or whatever the designation would be under whatever new plan emerges...if one emerges.  Pass rates are of course going to be closely watched by the schools and testing agencies who are in it _to make money_ - not for the betterment of the field.  At any rate, I'm not sure when the testing agencies and schools interests became more important than the public but... :Rolleyes:

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

My point is very simple; a licensing examination cannot be used to restrict entry into a field.  The exam must reflect minimum competencies necessary to provide the professional services tested.  What makes the creation of a validated entry level exam for opticianry so difficult is that there is simply no universal definition of the field.  This was one of the huge obstacles we encountered when trying to develop a practical examination for opticians. 

The problem with opticianry is not the quality of the professional examinations since the tests simply reflect the state of the field.  Opticianry must have a common educational experience if entry examinations are to increase in breadth and depth.

Roy

----------


## eye2

> not joking and not sure what you mean by reciprocity. How does a more difficult test help you if a) the test is voluntary, and b) passing the test doesn't allow you to perform a restricted act.



I now see where your going but that is painting with a very wide brush!

----------


## eye2

> My point is very simple; a licensing examination cannot be used to restrict entry into a field.  The exam must reflect minimum competencies necessary to provide the professional services tested.  What makes the creation of a validated entry level exam for opticianry so difficult is that there is simply no universal definition of the field.  This was one of the huge obstacles we encountered when trying to develop a practical examination for opticians. 
> 
> The problem with opticianry is not the quality of the professional examinations since the tests simply reflect the state of the field.  Opticianry must have a common educational experience if entry examinations are to increase in breadth and depth.
> 
> Roy






Now where do we go?

----------


## Uilleann

> My point is very simple; a licensing examination cannot be used to restrict entry into a field.  The exam must reflect minimum competencies necessary to provide the professional services tested.  What makes the creation of a validated entry level exam for opticianry so difficult is that there is simply no universal definition of the field.  This was one of the huge obstacles we encountered when trying to develop a practical examination for opticians. 
> 
> The problem with opticianry is not the quality of the professional examinations since the tests simply reflect the state of the field.  Opticianry must have a common educational experience if entry examinations are to increase in breadth and depth.
> 
> Roy


You had me with you right up till the lest sentence.  Now, had you said that opticianry needs a common competency experience, perhaps you'd be closer to the mark.  But the repeated calls for vague and non-consistent "education" will never go anywhere.  For any who want school school school, once more I would direct you towards the "local" optometry school of your choice.  You'll be a better optician for it.
 :Biggrin:

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

Warren and I have argued for a formal education component to be adopted by opticianry for years with little or no success.  As most of you know, opticianry is the only field associated with health care that requires no education to claim membership.  While ignorance is an easy goal to achieve, the result has been devastating on both an individual and professional level.

I have just completed an Emergency Medical Technician – Basic course.  This consumed several months at a local college and included three major tests (as well as the normal ones), and a practical exam covering the items listed in the scope of practice.  I was then qualified to take the national registry exam (NREMT).  

Why do I mention this?  In order to achieve this certification, which is the absolute bottom of the rung, entry level qualification, I had to go through a formal education process and pass a national examination.  This is a certification I need to continue in the volunteer Search and Rescue team I’m a member of.  In other words, I spent a lot of time, energy, and money to attend an educational program that will not result in a pay raise for me.

Compare this to the level of education required to be an optician.

----------


## LandLord

> Warren and I have argued for a formal education component to be adopted by opticianry for years with little or no success. As most of you know, opticianry is the only field associated with health care that requires no education to claim membership. While ignorance is an easy goal to achieve, the result has been devastating on both an individual and professional level.
> 
> I have just completed an Emergency Medical Technician – Basic course. This consumed several months at a local college and included three major tests (as well as the normal ones), and a practical exam covering the items listed in the scope of practice. I was then qualified to take the national registry exam (NREMT). 
> 
> Why do I mention this? In order to achieve this certification, which is the absolute bottom of the rung, entry level qualification, I had to go through a formal education process and pass a national examination. This is a certification I need to continue in the volunteer Search and Rescue team I’m a member of. In other words, I spent a lot of time, energy, and money to attend an educational program that will not result in a pay raise for me.
> 
> Compare this to the level of education required to be an optician.


Keyword being "volunteer".  Also, if you mess up as an EMT someone dies.  Neither applies to selling Gucci frames.

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> Neither applies to selling Gucci frames.


I have always advocated for a professional, educated optician as part of the health care delivery system.  A salesclerk presenting Gucci frames really shouldn’t be part of the discussion.  That’s not to say there’s no role for the optical salesclerks.  Confusing a salesclerk with an optician should fall in the same category as identifying an optometric technician as an Optometrist.

----------


## Judy Canty

FWIW.  I find it interesting that of the most vocal naysayers in this thread, one practices in Utah, where no licensing is required and one is from Canada.  

Often, trying to convince some opticians that education is the key to their advancement is like teaching pigs to dance.  Hopeless.

----------


## eye2

> FWIW.  I find it interesting that of the most vocal naysayers in this thread, one practices in Utah, where no licensing is required and one is from Canada.  
> 
> Often, trying to convince some opticians that education is the key to their advancement is like teaching pigs to dance.  Hopeless.





Nice!  :Bounce:

----------


## chip anderson

Odd, education is the cure for poverty, crime, political waste,  graft,   and all other things that beset mankind.
Guess work has fallen out of favor and we should get paid for the paper we hang on the wall.

Chip

----------


## Uilleann

> FWIW.  I find it interesting that of the most vocal naysayers in this thread, one practices in Utah, where no licensing is required and one is from Canada.  
> 
> Often, trying to convince some opticians that education is the key to their advancement is like teaching pigs to dance.  Hopeless.


Of course, I was expecting that response sooner or later.  Regardless of the fact that you not of what you speak, where I've worked, who/what I know about licensure in various states, my own educational background, or even clearly my own feelings about the immense value of education in general.  I know several of you "educated" types love to jump to the personal attack when you hear a dissenting opinion regardless of how baseless your insinuations are in reality.  But hey, YOU feel better right?  And that's is of course, truly all that matters.   :Cloud9: 




> Odd, education is the cure for poverty,  crime, political waste,  graft,   and all other things that beset  mankind.
> Guess work has fallen out of favor and we should get paid for the paper we hang on the wall.
> 
> Chip


As stated before, I challenge ANYONE in ANY OFFICE in the US to remove any and all paper from the walls.  Wait and see how long the general public takes to notice as much.  Do you honestly believe the over-the-top high end boutique shop, the mall 1 hour joint, or any of the optometrist or ophthalmologist private practices would even see a blip on their balance sheets from the waves of patients refusing to patronize their fine establishments because they appear somehow less educated?  When was the last time you got a call from anyone asking if you were properly educated in a 2-4 year degree program from an accredited school?  When was the last time you had a paying customer so much as ask you if your ABO was up to date and all your required CE was being fulfilled?

_The public at large does not care and whats more, they certainly are not willing to pay a massive premium for it._ This is being shown to us nationwide every day with increasing frequency.  Adapting to a new marketplace is becoming more common in many fields, healthcare not the least of which.  About the only certainty is that things will continue to change and evolve at an ever increasing rate.  Trying to change the public's perception of value of their local optician and in so doing hoping to add to the balance sheet doing nothing more than requiring an ill-defined "education" is folly at best.  You'll have better luck trying to hold back the tide with a toothpick.

Pay your dues to organizations claiming they can change that if you wish, it's certainly your prerogative, and all the best of luck to you - truly.  At the end of the day, a practice's success or failure is going to be due to many things - requiring a 2-4 year vague opticianry degree however, will be near the bottom of that list.   :Nerd: 

P.S. Chip - are you saying you actually believe that "education" alone would cure political waste?  Methinks you haven't watched the news or read a paper in the last several hundred years or so Mate.   :Tongue:  :Wink:

----------


## chip anderson

Ulli: Precisely my point, education does not create any sense of honor amoung those with it. It just makes criminals better criminals. I am completely in favour of learning and aquireing skills. But I don't think creates any sense of personal responsiblity. Even when it gives one: "A license to steal." and Dr. Jerry Feldman used to call it.

Don't get me wrong four of the most honorable men I have ever met were MD's Three of these were ophthalmologists. But they unfortunately were highly outnumbered by those who were far from honorable.

You don't see Medicare investigating and prosecuting opticians for fraud, but the educated MD's and OD's keep them quite busy.



Chip

----------


## LandLord

> FWIW. I find it interesting that of the most vocal naysayers in this thread, one practices in Utah, where no licensing is required and one is from Canada. 
> 
> Often, trying to convince some opticians that education is the key to their advancement is like teaching pigs to dance. Hopeless.


It would be easier to teach *pigs* to dance than to convince this already educated optician that even _more_ education is the (your words here) "*key to advancement*".  As wise as that sounds to some, likely those without much education (formal or informal), it is simply not the holy grail of status and success.  Once again, if you think that it is, go back to school, get more education, remain an optician, and check your pay stub.

----------


## kcount

> It would be easier to teach *pigs* to dance than to convince this already educated optician that even _more_ education is the (your words here) "*key to advancement*".  As wise as that sounds to some, likely those without much education (formal or informal), it is simply not the holy grail of status and success.  Once again, if you think that it is, go back to school, get more education, remain an optician, and check your pay stub.


Actually the Holy Grail of success and status is Ownership.  Want to make Opticianry stronger, help more opticians become independent business owners.  Why do OD's and MD's wield power?  because they are the final decision makers in their practices.  Vendors would rather talk to the owner than an employee any day.  All power and profits flow to ownership.

----------


## Uilleann

I've GOT IT!  I'm gonna go dig through my old boxes, and find my tassel from high school graduation.  SURELY THAT will influence people to know that I'm smarter than the average McTician and the money will no doubt rain down upon me!  (Because NONE of the other paper on the wall works!)  And if the graduation tassel doesn't do it - I'm resorting to stripper tassels.  THAT'S SURE to make an impression on my eyeglass buying public!  ;)

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

> I've GOT IT!  I'm gonna go dig through my old boxes, and find my tassel from high school graduation.  SURELY THAT will influence people to know that I'm smarter than the average McTician and the money will no doubt rain down upon me!  (Because NONE of the other paper on the wall works!)  And if the graduation tassel doesn't do it - I'm resorting to stripper tassels.  THAT'S SURE to make an impression on my eyeglass buying public!  ;)


Just make sure they're made of polycarbonate. :Smile:

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

“Where ignorance is bliss,
‘Tis folly to be wise.’”
Thomas Gray

----------


## uncut

> Actually the Holy Grail of success and status is Ownership.  Want to make Opticianry stronger, help more opticians become independent business owners.  Why do OD's and MD's wield power?  because they are the final decision makers in their practices.  Vendors would rather talk to the owner than an employee any day.  All power and profits flow to ownership.


I hereby nominate KC for the title, and much coveted............................ "*POST OF THE THREAD*"

----------


## eye2

[QUOTE=kcount;400318].  

Proud Member of the ABE Club!
Don't feed the Beast...

The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny.
Albert Ellis

For some, thinking is too great a burden.







“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.” 
― Albert Einstein

----------


## eye2

> Odd, education is the cure for poverty, crime, political waste,  graft,   and all other things that beset mankind.
> Guess work has fallen out of favor and we should get paid for the paper we hang on the wall.
> 
> Chip



It should go hand in hand. Work and education go together just as well as education and work fit just as nicely,

----------


## jediron1

> Where ignorance is bliss,
> Tis folly to be wise.
> Thomas Gray





That maybe true in some instances but to insinuate we are ignorant just because we don't agree with you is in my opinion the height of arrogance. And don't say that's not what you implied because by leaving the quote the implication is quite clear.  :Nerd:

----------


## eye2

> That maybe true in some instances but to insinuate we are ignorant just because we don't agree with you is in my opinion the height of arrogance. And don't say that's not what you implied because by leaving the quote the implication is quite clear.





Nice! 

Note: PHD is Piled Higher and Deeper by Anonymous

----------


## Diopterman

Does anybody else find it extremely depressing when looking through our very own job forum at the Optician help wanted posts, and see that most only ask for 1-2 years experience and a high school graduate!

It sure doesn't inspire hope for Opticianry for me, does it for you?

----------


## Judy Canty

Depressing? Of course.  However, given Opticianry's lack of uniform educational requirements, not surprising.

----------


## Diopterman

> Depressing? Of course. However, given Opticianry's lack of uniform educational requirements, not surprising.


Why bother with the education when that is not what the folks doing the hiring seem to be looking, or willing to pay for?

----------


## Judy Canty

> Why bother with the education when that is not what the folks doing the hiring seem to be looking, or willing to pay for?


Then, what's there to be depressed about?

----------


## Diopterman

> Then, what's there to be depressed about?


That Opticianry, as many of us know it.................is DEAD!

----------


## Judy Canty

> That Opticianry, as many of us know it.................is DEAD!


Not in Virginia.

----------


## jediron1

> Does anybody else find it extremely depressing when looking through our very own job forum at the Optician help wanted posts, and see that most only ask for 1-2 years experience and a high school graduate!
> 
> It sure doesn't inspire hope for Opticianry for me, does it for you?




In NY they do that all the time. They don't want to pay a seasoned optician. I know i have been told that many times.  :Wink:

----------


## jediron1

> Why bother with the education when that is not what the folks doing the hiring seem to be looking, or willing to pay for?




I think that has been answered in the previous 340 posts.

----------


## kcount

> Does anybody else find it extremely depressing when looking through our very own job forum at the Optician help wanted posts, and see that most only ask for 1-2 years experience and a high school graduate!
> 
> It sure doesn't inspire hope for Opticianry for me, does it for you?


Really? There's at least one that I'm aware of asking for 5 years min and ABOC preferred.

----------


## Diopterman

> Really? There's at least one that I'm aware of asking for 5 years min and ABOC preferred.


I wonder if they pay relocation costs?

It may be easier to fill that position if it was posted in the Job Forum AND not the Marketplace!

----------


## kcount

> I wonder if they pay relocation costs?
> 
> It may be easier to fill that position if it was posted in the Job Forum AND not the Marketplace!


Thanks for the heads up.. fixed.  I can ask regarding the relocation.

----------


## Uilleann

Grabs popcorn...

Hey, Diopterman, want some extra butter?   :Wink:  :Rolleyes:

----------


## Roy R. Ferguson

> That maybe true in some instances but to insinuate we are ignorant just because we don't agree with you is in my opinion the height of arrogance. And don't say that's not what you implied because by leaving the quote the implication is quite clear.


I have argued that professional advancement for opticians must come through formal education, that we are the only uneducated health related field, and that the current level of knowledge held by the many opticians in the United States is rudimentary at best. These positions can hardly be considered arrogant; simply statements of fact.

The opposing view seems to center around arguing against the need for formal education, the permanent adoption of ignorance as a professional standard, and that opticians are best served by learning through osmosis. It’s difficult to apply a label to this position.

----------


## eye2

> I've GOT IT!  I'm gonna go dig through my old boxes, and find my tassel from high school graduation.  SURELY THAT will influence people to know that I'm smarter than the average McTician and the money will no doubt rain down upon me!  (Because NONE of the other paper on the wall works!)  And if the graduation tassel doesn't do it - I'm resorting to stripper tassels.  THAT'S SURE to make an impression on my eyeglass buying public!  ;)






It might make an impression but only if you can twirl those stripper tassels! Now back to 
more serious items. I still believe in education and licensing. The problem is that the Boxe
s who do a lot of hiring put No priority on hiring licensed opticians. When you have RM's 
who have no optical experience and couldn't tell a pd stick from slap stick then you have 
a problem. Another one is most MD's OD's are unwilling to pay top dollar when they can h
ire someone off the street and have them work under there license. I just went on an interview
 for an MD OD practice because I wanted to get away from the Big Box commercial site a
nd back into a doctor situation that is more professional image than the Box. I was told m
y resume was quite impressive and then came the loaded question how much are you see
king? I said with my credentials and work history I would like 20 per hour! That was only 
because I wanted to get out of the Box environment because I can go to the Wally World
 Box and get 26 per hour but I don't want the box anymore. Well that was a month and h
alf ago and I have heard nothing. So my point being the people who do the hiring don't want to pay for experience or education. I been told more than once we can just hire someone off the street and train them all for 9 or 10 per hour so why should we hire you and pay you that much. At least in Western NY that's what is happening here! :Mad:

----------


## optical24/7

* Note to self; Never move to Western NY.

----------


## LandLord

Anyone who is advocating for mandatory education at a higher level than what they currently hold is just lazy and blowing hot air.

----------


## eye2

> * note to self; never move to western ny.






really!

----------


## nlayla

Sadly to say but our economy has litterally consumed and digested our Opticianry field. There are so many big chain retailers such as Lenscrafters and Site for Sore Eyes around and lilttle ma and pops dispensing shops and privately owned optometries are looking out for themselves and laying off dedicated employees. It is so hard to look for an Optician position nowadays...to the point that I feel "may be opticianry is dead". Good Luck to you.

----------


## eye2

> Sadly to say but our economy has litterally consumed and digested our Opticianry field. There are so many big chain retailers such as Lenscrafters and Site for Sore Eyes around and lilttle ma and pops dispensing shops and privately owned optometries are looking out for themselves and laying off dedicated employees. It is so hard to look for an Optician position nowadays...to the point that I feel "may be opticianry is dead". Good Luck to you.





My point being that I have no problem finding a job but as I said before I really don't want to work for Wally World but I might be forced into it. There is an MD OD establishment that the MD and I know him makes a seven figure income but considerers paying opticians around 18 or 19 per hour! Go figure! That is the point I was making.  I would like to work in a doctor establishment but through out my 37 years in optical I have never seen or heard of an MD or OD paying the going rate.  :Hot:

----------


## optilady1

> My point being that I have no problem finding a job but as I said before I really don't want to work for Wally World but I might be forced into it. There is an MD OD establishment that the MD and I know him makes a seven figure income but considerers paying opticians around 18 or 19 per hour! Go figure! That is the point I was making. I would like to work in a doctor establishment but through out my 37 years in optical I have never seen or heard of an MD or OD paying the going rate.


I think this is the norm.  I don't know why.  I know I've heard people who own their own place and state that they pay 25-30/hr for a good LO, but I never have been so lucky.  Plus, once a person can latch on to one of these jobs, whose gonna leave?  I feel that part of the deal with working for a private practice and not working nights and weekends is part of your 'pay/benefits package'.  Plus, many of the chains now concider full time to be 30 hours/week, so that makes up for the 6 dollars and hour pay cut.  It's frustrating, but these are the things I tell myself so that I don't look like your little red faced smiley.

----------


## LandLord

> My point being that I have no problem finding a job but as I said before I really don't want to work for Wally World but I might be forced into it. There is an MD OD establishment that the MD and I know him makes a seven figure income but considerers paying opticians around 18 or 19 per hour! Go figure! That is the point I was making. I would like to work in a doctor establishment but through out my 37 years in optical I have never seen or heard of an MD or OD paying the going rate.


If an MD is making a $1 million a year, it's only because he does eye surgery.  Compare his/her 15 years of training to an opticians then yes, $20/hour seems fair.

----------


## Uilleann

> If an MD is making a $1 million a year, it's only because he does eye surgery.  Compare his/her 15 years of training to an opticians then yes, $20/hour seems fair.


I've never met an MD with 15 years of training.  Ever.  There are plenty with 15 years of _experience_...and often more.  But then, that's similar to opticianry isn't it.  We all get better on the job - surgeons and dispensers alike.  As for the MD business model - most offer any form of dispensary only as a passing "courtesy" to their patients, and not at all as a revenue generator of any consequence for their practice.  If they're lucky, they will have hired an appropriate dispensary manager and staff, and it will not only serve the needs of their patients well, but also generate a modest profit for the business.

If that is the case, there would be no reasonable reason _not_ to compensate the dispensary manager and staff accordingly.  Depending on the local market, that may be under the venti hour mark...or in limited cases it could be appreciably more.  I find citing a perceived value of an employee to a given business based strictly on their years in school to be flawed logic to the nth degree.  Is that indeed the point you were trying to make, or did I mis-read your statement LL?

----------


## optical24/7

Undergraduate - 4 years ( usually majors include math and science) 
4 years med school (here you become a general doctor) 
then an additional residency is required to become an ophthalmologist (usually 3-4 years)

----------


## chip anderson

Ulle:   If you are still naive enough to believe that most MD's have a dispensary as a _courtesy_ (they usually use the word convienence) you are in for a very rude suprise when you get a little older.  The only reason any MD ever opened a dispensary was greed.   

Chip

----------


## Uilleann

> Ulle:   If you are still naive enough to believe that most MD's have a dispensary as a _courtesy_ (they usually use the word convienence) you are in for a very rude suprise when you get a little older.  The only reason any MD ever opened a dispensary was greed.   
> 
> Chip


It's not naivety my friend - it's experience.  And the past years spent working both for and closely with many MDs.  The word "convenience" is theirs not mine, and has been repeated multiple times.  Is that the way that all MD's choose to run their business model?  No, obviously.  But the number that choose to do it to "look good" for their patients might surprise you in reality.  The hardware margins for many of them are slim at best.  Again, this is direct personal experience here...YMMV.

----------


## chip anderson

Like I said:  Wait til you are older.

Chip

----------


## Johns

> Plus, once a person can latch on to one of these jobs, whose gonna leave?  I feel that part of the deal with working for a private practice and not working nights and weekends is part of your 'pay/benefits package'.


That's  a good point.  You don't hear about those jobs, because they seldom turnover.  I know that I was on a waiting list to work at the OD's office where I presently work .  I have NO plans to leave anytime soon, and when I do, my boss most likely will shuffle through the stack of resumes he has, and pick the next "lucky" employee.  

Regardless of what many on this board believe, these high paying jobs are as difficult to find as it is for the employers to find high caliber opticians.  By high caliber, I don't mean order takers, salesmen, uni-dimensional techs, stylists, spectacle only opticians,or contact lens only opticians.  I'm talking about opticians that can hand edge a lens down, be able to educate the patient on the latest lens technologies, as well as fit those lenses, and then perform a slit lamp evaluation for a contact lens follow-up.  That's what I mean by high caliber.  

Is that you?

----------


## eye2

> That's  a good point.  You don't hear about those jobs, because they seldom turnover.  I know that I was on a waiting list to work at the OD's office where I presently work .  I have NO plans to leave anytime soon, and when I do, my boss most likely will shuffle through the stack of resumes he has, and pick the next "lucky" employee.  
> 
> Regardless of what many on this board believe, these high paying jobs are as difficult to find as it is for the employers to find high caliber opticians.  By high caliber, I don't mean order takers, salesmen, uni-dimensional techs, stylists, spectacle only opticians,or contact lens only opticians.  I'm talking about opticians that can hand edge a lens down, be able to educate the patient on the latest lens technologies, as well as fit those lenses, and then perform a slit lamp evaluation for a contact lens follow-up.  That's what I mean by high caliber.  
> 
> Is that you?





Been there done that!   :Ninja:

----------


## LandLord

> I've never met an MD with 15 years of training. Ever. There are plenty with 15 years of _experience_...and often more. But then, that's similar to opticianry isn't it. We all get better on the job - surgeons and dispensers alike. As for the MD business model - most offer any form of dispensary only as a passing "courtesy" to their patients, and not at all as a revenue generator of any consequence for their practice. If they're lucky, they will have hired an appropriate dispensary manager and staff, and it will not only serve the needs of their patients well, but also generate a modest profit for the business.
> 
> If that is the case, there would be no reasonable reason _not_ to compensate the dispensary manager and staff accordingly. Depending on the local market, that may be under the venti hour mark...or in limited cases it could be appreciably more. I find citing a perceived value of an employee to a given business based strictly on their years in school to be flawed logic to the nth degree. Is that indeed the point you were trying to make, or did I mis-read your statement LL?


It's pretty close to what I was saying.  But I was making the point only on the negative end.  A LACK of education is a good reason to pay a low optician wage.  However, a long education would not justify a high optician wage.  Conversely, an MD pulling down a "seven figure income" as stated above sounds very rare to me but if true, wouldn't bother me in the least.

----------


## chip anderson

From what I've heard from various lawyers who handled divorces for OMD's and thier spouses,  they usually have three sets of books.   One presented in court that shows a good comfortable income.   The next for the IRS that shows a small profit and a high salary.   And the last for the person who does thier land and condo investments.

----------


## eye2

> It's pretty close to what I was saying.  But I was making the point only on the negative end.  A LACK of education is a good reason to pay a low optician wage.  However, a long education would not justify a high optician wage.  Conversely, an MD pulling down a "seven figure income" as stated above sounds very rare to me but if true, wouldn't bother me in the least.





The point I was making was I have the education, experience and management skill but they all say impressive resume and you come with great references but why would I pay you the higher wage when I can get a newbie for about 14? So it's very difficult to get into an MD OD establishment because they don't pay. In New York state I have not heard of an MD or OD that is willing to pay the going rate. Ya you can say in NY city they get 28 but look where your living you need that 28 to make ends meet. Just frustrating!  :Mad:

----------


## Johns

> So it's very difficult to get into an MD OD establishment because they don't pay. In New York state I have not heard of an MD or OD that is willing to pay the going rate.


Many of them won't pay well, because they don't need the extra income a good dispensary can produce. They're living off of their surgical fees.  There's a local MD (just across the river in Ky) that has NO mark-up on his frames, and if he makes a profit on his lenses, he's not concerned.  He just wants a dispensary.

You don't need an employer like that.  Find someone that recognizes the value you offer. If they don't exist where you are, then move.  That's what I did. (And to a colder climate to boot).  If you don't want to move, then get a new career.

----------


## DragonLensmanWV

Methinks Chip overuses the word greed. After all, the only reason anyone goes into business is greed. Chip's greedy - he's an owner. Anyone that opens their own shop is greedy, according to Chip. Give it a rest, will you?

----------


## optical24/7

> You don't need an employer like that. Find someone that recognizes the value you offer. If they don't exist where you are, then move. That's what I did. (And to a colder climate to boot). If you don't want to move, then get a new career.


Exactly Darby. True story;

 Back in the 80's when I worked wholesale I was asked to interview for the GM position of a lab in Corpus Christi. I was discussing the employees with the owner and asked how long most had been with him. Most had been there 10-15 years, one or two for close to 20. I found he was paying them barely over minimum wages. I couldn't believe it. This was 1/2 to 1/3 of what Houston and Dallas labs paid. I asked him how he kept them so long at such a low wage. His exact words;

" These people's family are here. They are tied to the community, and I'm the only game in town."

 This was true, he had the only lab within 150 miles. His offer to me was almost half of what I was making already as a lab supervisor. I've made many moves to further my career. It's not unusual to have to relocate to advance in any field. If you look at opticianry as your life career, relocating may have to be part of your plan for advancement.

----------


## chip anderson

Chip doesn't think all owners are greedy, Chip thinks all *Prescriber  Owners* are greedy.  Think of it this way, if the OMD or OD. just examined and treated and you could be nearby, produced work of a quality (and don't worry if the doc's didn't self refer you could get all the financing you want)  A: one hard working prescriber could support possibly three to five dispensaries (he could also make a good living on nothing but referrals from these).
The dispensers would get a feelin for who's good at what (which we no longer have).    The three to five dispensaries would have to compete but other than quality and price, none would have an edge.
You would make many times more money than you think the good doctor can afford to pay you.
Probably the local chain would not be recommended.

As to Chip's own dispensary, it exists just so Chip and his secretary will have a job and hopefully be out of debt before he dies or has to retire due to the deterioration of age.

Chip

----------


## jediron1

Optical could be dead, if your let go by the Evil Empire of Sears and the person who let you go walks out with over 40 contacts w/o paying and nothing is said.
Optical could be dead if we have no education.
Optical could be dead if we have no training 
Optical could be dead if we have no education or training
Optical could be dead if we continue to lay off or just get rid of people over 60
Optical could be dead if we have online opticals that continue to take a slice of the pie they don't deserve


Just a little ranting. But the first one is a true story I saw it done!  :Hot:

----------


## Pdarnall

> This is why I maintain that 4 years schooling, with lab work every semester, is necessary to do it all properly.
> 
> Barry


+1

----------


## Mactire

I agree on the education. But still...

Here in Holland you can do two things if you want to be an optician go to school or learn from the boss. Most big companies like Pearle and Specsavers have their own school.
I personally took the "real" school, did it part time. I was also lucky to have some old-rimer collegues who knew the trick of the trade. I did this, but the company I worked for wanted me to do an intnal education.

Now that I'm continuing my education as an optometrist I see the difference between the two educations. I know some internal schooled students, their education is primarely aimed at te refraction. Though they learn some basics, it's not as broad as the "real" one. That becomes painfully clear now.
(...No, that's the cornea, not the lens... Really happend >_<)

I guess the big companies are just after the quick money. But it deflates the market.

----------


## eye2

> Optical could be dead, if your let go by the Evil Empire of Sears and the person who let you go walks out with over 40 contacts w/o paying and nothing is said.
> Optical could be dead if we have no education.
> Optical could be dead if we have no training 
> Optical could be dead if we have no education or training
> Optical could be dead if we continue to lay off or just get rid of people over 60
> Optical could be dead if we have online opticals that continue to take a slice of the pie they don't deserve
> 
> 
> Just a little ranting. But the first one is a true story I saw it done!




As long as there bringing in the dollars apparently they don't care if stuff is taken! Unbelievable but I have seen it too!  :Confused:

----------


## jediron1

> As long as there bringing in the dollars apparently they don't care if stuff is taken! Unbelievable but I have seen it too!




Apparently eye2 they don't care. But I was there when they put 40 contacts in there purse and went home and nothing was done or said!  :Confused:

----------


## jediron1

> _Does everyone understand the information I have posted?  These are optical employees with at least three years of experience!  If you understand it, please explain it to me._
> 
> _From a pair of mounted bifocal lenses:__
> __Twenty-five percent cannot neutralize the distance portion of the lenses.__
> __Forty percent cannot determine the add power.__
> __Thirty-five percent cannot measure the distance between optical centers or measure the near P.D._ _
> __Forty-eight percent cannot measure a seg height (+/- 2.0 mm).__
> __Twenty-five percent cannot measure the seg width of a visible bifocal._





Yes I believe we all get what your saying. If what you say is true then the hammer falls on two areas. 1. Schools that put out these people that can't do what you say and 2. Employers who hire and train people to do as little as possible with the only goal is how much can you sell. When the emphasis is put on selling an not on knowing the art or the rudentmenary elements of frames and lenses then you have so called opticians who can't tell a pd stick from slap stick.  :Mad:

----------


## jediron1

> I agree on the education. But still...
> 
> Here in Holland you can do two things if you want to be an optician go to school or learn from the boss. Most big companies like Pearle and Specsavers have their own school.
> I personally took the "real" school, did it part time. I was also lucky to have some old-rimer collegues who knew the trick of the trade. I did this, but the company I worked for wanted me to do an intnal education.
> 
> Now that I'm continuing my education as an optometrist I see the difference between the two educations. I know some internal schooled students, their education is primarely aimed at te refraction. Though they learn some basics, it's not as broad as the "real" one. That becomes painfully clear now.
> (...No, that's the cornea, not the lens... Really happend >_<)
> 
> I guess the big companies are just after the quick money. But it deflates the market.




Exactly what I have saying through all these posts! Glad to see someone gets it. :Confused:

----------


## Diopterman

What other trades or "professions" would be a good career choice for those that want to get out of opticianry?

Do we have any "transferable" skills?
Real sales skills?
Mechanical skills?


For those that are not college grads, or have picked up opticianry with "On the job Training", are we employable to others outside of this business as we are?

----------


## Judy Canty

> What other trades or "professions" would be a good career choice for those that want to get out of opticianry?
> 
> Do we have any "transferable" skills?
> Real sales skills?
> Mechanical skills?
> 
> 
> For those that are not college grads, or have picked up opticianry with "On the job Training", are we employable to others outside of this business as we are?


Hmmmmm...interesting question.

----------


## LandLord

> What other trades or "professions" would be a good career choice for those that want to get out of opticianry?
> 
> Do we have any "transferable" skills?
> Real sales skills?
> Mechanical skills?
> 
> 
> For those that are not college grads, or have picked up opticianry with "On the job Training", are we employable to others outside of this business as we are?


I assume that a lower paying job would not be acceptable as a way out of opticianry.  But the only sales skills an optician would likely possess is retail sales.  Normally a lower pay rate in other retail products like shoes or clothing.  Although you might make a decent living selling cell phones because of the long contracts and high commission.

Not the same as professional sales jobs like a frame rep where you have to go out and make a sale.  Much harder to do.

----------


## cocoisland58

> For those that are not college grads, or have picked up opticianry with "On the job Training", are we employable to others outside of this business as we are?


Generally your skills in sales might be best appreciated by employers.  I had a car dealership chase me for a year trying to get me to work for them after I interviewed with them on a lark. I've been offered real estate jobs though right now I'm glad I'm not in that boat.

----------


## optical24/7

I know an ABOM that got out of optics and sells cars.

----------


## jediron1

> What other trades or "professions" would be a good career choice for those that want to get out of opticianry?
> 
> Do we have any "transferable" skills?
> Real sales skills?
> Mechanical skills?
> 
> 
> For those that are not college grads, or have picked up opticianry with "On the job Training", are we employable to others outside of this business as we are?




Does a Neuro surgeon have skills outside his profession or a plumber. What about nurses? Can they build a house, fix a pair of glasses or do a plumbing repair? I for one am a fair plumber and my carpentry skills are pretty good.  :Confused:

----------


## Chris Ryser

You could become a serviceman for on line purchased glasses.  $ 10.00 for checking the Rx. $ 25.00 for adjustments and re-adjustments. plus other services at whatever you want to charge. Just need

----------


## tmorse

There is a partial solution to bringing onboard non-licensed States to combat the Is Opticianry Dead? issue... condensed, shorter-term opticianry education. 
Why scare entrants into this  field by mandating a 2-year (or heaven, even a 4-yr) opticianry program when you already have 6-9 month private opticianry programs offering entry-level opticianry training that cover the needed competencies. This is not dumbing-down educational standards in an industry. Rather, it makes education more accessible to those that need it. 
Persons in non-licensed States refuse to spend 2-years or more training for this vocation which is OD and OMD exempt (and who chase the same optical dollar). They simply cannot afford to do without a family  income for this length of time. But most can bite the bullet and spend 6-9 months in opticianry career training. 
2-yr public programs will never agree, but unfortunately store ownership is and will be unattainable for the vast majority of opticians, so advanced training in management/ownership competencies should be left to those that want it, but on their own time.
Until this simple premise is understood and accepted by the so-called leaders in this field, Opticianry may well be on its deathbed in the USA.

----------


## chip anderson

T.Morse:
You doan seem to realize that "education" is the key to success.  With same you can protest in many cities.   You can get the government to forgive your student loans whether you get a job or not.   You will auchomaticly be steered away from a life of crime, proverty and military service.    You auchomaticly be one of de elite of society.    After you gits educasemunt as a real, bonofied optrician you can still get the same wages you would git if you walked in offn de street.    
Cudo's for your posting, it's right on.

Some seem to think that educashment will be like a Phd. and allow you to get tenure with a lifetime job whether you produce anything or not.   Even whether you bother to show up and instruct students or not.    We all jus knows bout dem govmunt grants to de optical business.   Note even the scholar ships furnished by de major optical companies goin to de O.D.'s not us peons.

It's a trade, now being an optical engineer or high tech person in optical design or at Edmund's Scientific is a different matter entirely.  But eing a dispenser in a doctor's office is more:  "You go convince that woman she needs $300.00 frames and super high tech $500.00 lenses."  
 :Rolleyes: 
Chip

----------


## jediron1

> T.Morse:
> You doan seem to realize that "education" is the key to success.  With same you can protest in many cities.   You can get the government to forgive your student loans whether you get a job or not.   You will auchomaticly be steered away from a life of crime, proverty and military service.    You auchomaticly be one of de elite of society.    After you gits educasemunt as a real, bonofied optrician you can still get the same wages you would git if you walked in offn de street.    
> Cudo's for your posting, it's right on.
> 
> Some seem to think that educashment will be like a Phd. and allow you to get tenure with a lifetime job whether you produce anything or not.   Even whether you bother to show up and instruct students or not.    We all jus knows bout dem govmunt grants to de optical business.   Note even the scholar ships furnished by de major optical companies goin to de O.D.'s not us peons.
> 
> It's a trade, now being an optical engineer or high tech person in optical design or at Edmund's Scientific is a different matter entirely.  But eing a dispenser in a doctor's office is more:  "You go convince that woman she needs $300.00 frames and super high tech $500.00 lenses."  
> 
> Chip






So we're car salesman but we only  work in the boxes or docs office! Nice Chip! Really? :poop:

----------


## chip anderson

Jed:   Me thinks you miss the sarcasm.   But as your observation, I fear this is all too true for most in the "profession."

Chip

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## Wes

Sar-chasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

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## jediron1

> Sar-chasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.




Ye that live in glass houses should not be casting stones. And I was aware of the sarcasm but I was pointing to Chips obvious conclusion but then it wasn't so obvious.

----------


## Wes

> Ye that live in glass houses should not be casting stones. And I was aware of the sarcasm but I was pointing to Chips obvious conclusion but then it wasn't so obvious.


Note to self:  ^^^^^ this person^^^^^ has no sense of humor.

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## Judy Canty

Geeze, why isn't this thread dead yet?

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## harry a saake

To get a good idea of what is going on in opticianary, all you have to do is scroll down to the very bottom of the screen, where all the facts and figures are posted.

there is about 12,000 members, there are 1200 active apx, anyone see the problem?

the figures are on the bottom of the home page

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## JRS

OptiBoard Discussion Forums Statistics Threads 43,314Posts 393,409Members 19,656Active Members 1,446
                                          = 7.36 %

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## jediron1

> And I was told that the best way to lose my job as a GSM with the Empire was to become involved in my state association. I called his bluff and have remained active on the state and national level since 1991. 
> They cannot stop anyone from pursuing an education or certification or activitism on behalf of your chosen profession. They can make it difficult, sometimes difficult enough to quit, but they cannot stop you. "They" don't own you; they employ you.





You missed the point! The point being the store manager ( where i interviewed ) at the Empire placed NO value on getting an education or a license because as he said " they don't require it of me ". So as I was trying to point out the The Boxes and places like the Empire do just by there being influence whether the people get a license or education. It's Slight influence but it's still an influence.  :Ninja:

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## jediron1

> "Help us understand a way to help future Opticians."
> 
> 1. Get laws that strictly define the act of dispensing.
> 2. Get laws that restrict the practice of dispensing to qualified persons with proper education.
> 3. Make sure someone enforces the law.
> 
> This will decrease the supply of and increase demand for opticians, thereby raising incomes.  Problem solved.
> 
> Ontario got as far as step 2.




Most states that licensed have these already in place but they like NY lack the one thing noted, they don't enforce any of the above!

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## eye2

Originally Posted by LandLord  
"Help us understand a way to help future Opticians."

1. Get laws that strictly define the act of dispensing.
2. Get laws that restrict the practice of dispensing to qualified persons with proper education.
3. Make sure someone enforces the law.

This will decrease the supply of and increase demand for opticians, thereby raising incomes. Problem solved.

Ontario got as far as step 2.





As Landlord has said 1. Let's get laws that strictly define what an optician can do. In NY you are not supposed to dispense off an expired rx but I've seen it done and reported to state and they did nothing. I saw a person take 40 contact lenses and nothing was ever said. I heard of a person working off of a non- registered license and from what people have told nothing has been done to stop that. So the laws are there but there not being enforced! And NY is most lackadaisical state you ever saw unless your in politics!

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## Wes

> You missed the point! The point being the store manager ( where i interviewed ) at the Empire placed NO value on getting an education or a license because as he said " they don't require it of me ". So as I was trying to point out the The Boxes and places like the Empire do just by there being influence whether the people get a license or education. It's Slight influence but it's still an influence.


You consistently miss the important points.
There aren't that many employers who see the value of a great optician/manager, and even fewer that can pay for it. 
Only the BEST opticians available are going to get the great positions that are out there. 
Only the very best stand out, and the good are lumped in with the average and the awful. 
If you want the best, be the best. "Good enough" ISN'T!
There aren't that many great opportunities available, and they will always go to whoever is the best available at the time. 
You may have to move to get them. So move. 
You may need a higher certification to get it, so earn one. 
You may need a degree to be considered, so go get it. 
Work on your communication skills (please). 
Don't sit on your past accomplishments, because while you do so, others are driving on and passing you by. 
When is the last time you added something significant to your resume? 

Consistently complaining that the empire and the boxes won't pay you what (you think) you're worth puzzles me (perhaps a lesson in economics: you're only worth what someone will pay you). Why do you want to work there anyway? You've been doing this for as long as I've been alive, and you're still complaining about what the empire and boxes won't give you? If you think you have what it takes to get a great job, go after it. Otherwise quit complaining that your bosses are so inferior to you (that slapstick/pd-stick phrase that you and your clone/alter ego eye2 keep bandying about is tired. You need a new phrase) and suck it up. You're the one settling for less, and then complaining to all of us about it.

To those who say that higher certifications and education are a hindrance to getting a job, I say: You're right! It's a hindrance to getting a job you don't want. It won't be a hindrance in getting a great job. Take a long hard look in the mirror. Is there room for improvement? If you're not the best (that you can be), then you're not good enough.

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## Uilleann

Or...

Don't bother wasting your time trying to find non-existant nationally available optician education.  Don't worry about moving either.  If you're going to go back to school anyway, get into a field that pays far better than opticianry does or ever will.  There are a number of fields that you will find that offer the ability to stay where you live - perhaps even working from home in some cases.  A six figure income on an AS or less is not as hard to imagine as truly nationally available opticianry education.

If you feel you must move - head to Canada instead.  Pay far less than any "program" in the US, and be done with what you truly need in a fraction of the time the 2-4 year camp thinks it should take.

Just remember - at the end of the day, your paycheck will be FAR more controlled by demographics and marketing ability than your skill or knowledge.  The public won't pay you any more for your "degree" in whatever.  That *might* pay you more if you can convince them through a slick marketing campaign that they _should_ - "education" or not.

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## Wes

> Or...
> 
> Don't bother wasting your time trying to find non-existant nationally available optician education. Don't worry about moving either. If you're going to go back to school anyway, get into a field that pays far better than opticianry does or ever will. There are a number of fields that you will find that offer the ability to stay where you live - perhaps even working from home in some cases. A six figure income on an AS or less is not as hard to imagine as truly nationally available opticianry education.
> 
> If you feel you must move - head to Canada instead. Pay far less than any "program" in the US, and be done with what you truly need in a fraction of the time the 2-4 year camp thinks it should take.
> 
> Just remember - at the end of the day, your paycheck will be FAR more controlled by demographics and marketing ability than your skill or knowledge. The public won't pay you any more for your "degree" in whatever. That *might* pay you more if you can convince them through a slick marketing campaign that they _should_ - "education" or not.


Sure, if you're happy with your current lot in life, or if you don't like being an optician,  or if you love the cold, these are great suggestions.

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## tmorse

[QUOTE=Uilleann;402117]

If you feel you must move - head to Canada instead. Pay far less than any "program" in the US, and be done with what you truly need in a fraction of the time the 2-4 year camp thinks it should take. QUOTE]

Head to Canada for your 6-month opticianry/contact lens education, and then come back to the USA with the skills and competencies that will wow any employer. And SAVE MONEY... the 18-months of class-time you save over a 2-yr degree will translate into 3000hrs of work-time, which will mean tens of thousands of $$$dollars in your pocket. And going to Canada for you education will show an 'initiative' on your resume that other job applicants may lack.

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## jediron1

> You consistently miss the important points.
> There aren't that many employers who see the value of a great optician/manager, and even fewer that can pay for it. 
> Only the BEST opticians available are going to get the great positions that are out there. 
> Only the very best stand out, and the good are lumped in with the average and the awful. 
> If you want the best, be the best. "Good enough" ISN'T!
> There aren't that many great opportunities available, and they will always go to whoever is the best available at the time. 
> You may have to move to get them. So move. 
> You may need a higher certification to get it, so earn one. 
> You may need a degree to be considered, so go get it. 
> ...






Wow Wes nice dissertation on missing the point.  And your diatribe is insulting and seeing how you write and condescending you are I wouldn't recommend anyone to go to you. I've met opticians like you who thing there Gods gift to Opticianary when in fact there just blow hards who couldn't hold a candle to an experienced optician.  :Mad:

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## Wes

> Wow Wes, nice dissertation on missing the point. And your diatribe is insulting and seeing how you write and condescending you are I wouldn't recommend anyone to go to you (this makes no sense if read with logic). I've met opticians like you who thing there (do you mean they're?) God's gift to Opticianary (there is one A in Opticianry) when in fact there (again, do you mean they're?) just blow hards who couldn't hold a candle to an experienced optician.


Did you proofread that mess you wrote before you hit "post"?  It's no wonder you're still stuck interviewing at the empire and boxes.  With writing skills like that, no matter how good of an optician you may be, no one will ever make you management.  Your communication (writing) skills are sorely lacking, and you never addressed the point of my post.  What have you done LATELY?   Are you THE BEST in your area?  Can you say you're a Certified Master Optician?  You're the one looking for employment.  You have to be IMPRESSIVE!  Can you show proof of your academic prowess or your ability to lead others? 

If your resume looks anything like your posts, you'll be forever stuck seeking employment with companies who will never value the OPTICIANRY skills you bring to the table.  Do you still think you don't need some education?  Sure, I'm getting your hackles up, but I hope I'm helping you.  You're clearly not as well-rounded as you believe.

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## jediron1

[QUOTE=Wes;402152]Did you proofread that mess you wrote before you hit "post"?  It's no wonder you're still stuck interviewing at the empire and boxes.  With writing skills like that, no matter how good of an optician you may be, no one will ever make you management.  Your communication (writing) skills are sorely lacking, and you never addressed the point of my post.  What have you done LATELY?   Are you THE BEST in your area?  Can you say you're a Certified Master Optician?  You're the one looking for employment.  You have to be IMPRESSIVE!  Can you show proof of your academic prowess or your ability to lead others? 

If your resume looks anything like your posts, you'll be forever stuck seeking employment with companies who will never value the OPTICIANRY skills you bring to the table.  Do you still think you don't need some education?  Sure, I'm getting your hackles up, but I hope I'm helping you.  You're clearly not as well-rounded as you believe.[/QUOT






Wes if I were you I would take a walk off a short pier and do all Opticianary a favor. Plezzzzz get a life!
Your a first class blow hard and with those optical skills I see why your in SC!  :Eek:

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## Wes

[QUOTE=jediron1;402157]


> Did you proofread that mess you wrote before you hit "post"?  It's no wonder you're still stuck interviewing at the empire and boxes.  With writing skills like that, no matter how good of an optician you may be, no one will ever make you management.  Your communication (writing) skills are sorely lacking, and you never addressed the point of my post.  What have you done LATELY?   Are you THE BEST in your area?  Can you say you're a Certified Master Optician?  You're the one looking for employment.  You have to be IMPRESSIVE!  Can you show proof of your academic prowess or your ability to lead others? 
> 
> If your resume looks anything like your posts, you'll be forever stuck seeking employment with companies who will never value the OPTICIANRY skills you bring to the table.  Do you still think you don't need some education?  Sure, I'm getting your hackles up, but I hope I'm helping you.  You're clearly not as well-rounded as you believe.[/QUOT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funny; you can't even quote someone properly.  Your language skills are atrocious. You continue to make of yourself a fool, Sir.

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## jediron1

> Did you proofread that mess you wrote before you hit "post"?  It's no wonder you're still stuck interviewing at the empire and boxes.  With writing skills like that, no matter how good of an optician you may be, no one will ever make you management.  Your communication (writing) skills are sorely lacking, and you never addressed the point of my post.  What have you done LATELY?   Are you THE BEST in your area?  Can you say you're a Certified Master Optician?  You're the one looking for employment.  You have to be IMPRESSIVE!  Can you show proof of your academic prowess or your ability to lead others? 
> 
> If your resume looks anything like your posts, you'll be forever stuck seeking employment with companies who will never value the OPTICIANRY skills you bring to the table.  Do you still think you don't need some education?  Sure, I'm getting your hackles up, but I hope I'm helping you.  You're clearly not as well-rounded as you believe.





I never said I was looking for employment! What I have is a NY license when it really was a license. That encorperated 3 and half days of testing from anatomy and  physiology of the eye to algebra, geometric optics, contact lenses and lab. Then we had a half day practical. Then I went on to get my ABO and C.O.A. All to better myself and continue my education. Because I believe we never stop learning and too learn is to better one self. I have taught classes on geometric optics and lectured at Ophthalmology CE courses. So I believe my credentials speak for themselves.

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## jediron1

[QUOTE=Wes;402158]


> Funny; you can't even quote someone properly.  Your language skills are atrocious. You continue to make of yourself a fool, Sir.




Only a fool would know a fool.

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## Wes

I apologize,  Sir.  I shall offend you no further.  Good day.

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## obxeyeguy

> Wes if I were you I would take a walk off a short pier and do all Opticianary a favor. Plezzzzz get a life!
> Your a first class blow hard and with those optical skills I see why your in SC!


First off,  I just happen to know Wes personally, and while I'm sure he doesn't need my help in a p###ing match, I will vouch for his skills. Second, I don't know what SC is like, I would think it's every bit as good as here, but I left my watered down NY license 11 years ago and moved to NC, at age 45.  If you look up one of my recent posts, you will see that I am looking at retirement, so not to shabby here.  The NC license is as hard as the NY one we both received back in the 70's, and to this day, not diluted. I got screwed for years in NY, and finally had enough, and left.  I wish I had done this years ago, as the last 11 years have been great.  Once the chains got the licensed watered down to dumb and dumber, we were all done.

I work 9-5, monday-friday, and make about 90% more than I did in NY.  So when Wes said  to search them out, he meant it.  At least 4 others I have met thru optiboard are in the same  pay area, way above the normal 35- 40k, but double plus.  No one just gave it to us, we searched it out, sold ourselves, and cashed the checks.

I have been fortunate in the 37 years in this business, to have never worked in a big box or any kind of chain.  This was by my own choice, as I never wanted to go that route.

Complain all you want, but some of us are doing just fine.  As Sam Kinneson(sp) said, MOVE!

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## Wes

This is a man who followed the money to heaven and lived there for a while.  We can all learn from him.

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## tmorse

I agree with SAM... Move!! Be prepared to move... for an education and then move again... for advancement. It takes some guts to go this route, but it will get you out of your rut. And if youre too gutless to move, then at least stop your snivellin.

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## jediron1

> I agree with SAM... Move!! Be prepared to ‘move’... for an education and then ‘move’ again... for advancement. It takes some guts to go this route, but it will get you out of your rut. And if you’re too gutless to ‘move’, then at least stop your snivellin’.






I never said I was looking for employment. If you read the post above I got my education and then some. I make around 45k per year so not to bad in western NY. As for his skills I couldn't say all I can say is what other opticians have told me and that is I'm one of the best opticians they have ever worked with. So here's an end to all this :poop:

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## hcjilson

When a thread degenerates as far as this one has, we close it! Anyone disagreeing with this is welcome to contact Steve and make the case to re-open it. He can make the call.

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