# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  So where do we HEAD NOW?

## jediron1

We have just witnessed our second beheading and Im still hearing all this **** that Muslims are peace loving people. Well I did a cursory look and found that in the Koran it does condone beheading "According to Muhammads sacralized biography by Ibn Ishaq". I would go into it further but parts of this are just sickening what was done to these people according to Ibn Ishaq. And don't be mis-led, do you think this beheading hasn't happened elsewhere? The Sudanese are in a "slavery and ethnic-cleansing that currently disgraces Sudan. A holocaust
that has been described by General Colin Powell as: "The single worst
human rights nightmare on the planet!" What needs to be done I don't know, but I know for a fact something has to be done, maybe Michael Savage is right with the old GUN BOAT dipolamcy. Just rantings of someone that is seeing a great nation go down the toilet!:hammer:

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## walt

What's your point?

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## Steve Machol

I really don't think your diatribe against the entire Muslin faith is justified. After all there are quite a few things 'condoned' in the Bible that are equally 'barbaric' by today's standards. 

The fault lies with the Islamic extremists who take a distorted view of their religious precepts - not the religion itself. Unfortunately there are similar extremists in virtually all religions.

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## mrba

> After all there are quite a few things 'condoned' in the Bible that are equally 'barbaric' by today's standards.


Such as? And are you referring to Jewish Torah or Christian Bible? I have trouble remembering Jesus condoning beheading or anything on that magnitude, but my memory of scripture isn't perfect.




> Unfortunately there are similar extremists invirtually all religions.


Yes, but they don't cut off heads on TV, take hostages, and do it in the name of their God. Please describe to me how the Dali Lama, Pope, or Archbishop of Canteberry condone such extreme actions. What about Billy Grahm, or even that nut Fallwell?
Although I can name main stream Muslim leaders that endorse beheading as the natural choice, I am at a loss for christian, buddhist, or Druid examples in modern time.


Jedron,
Although I concur with your sentiment towards our country, and a desparate need in the world for some gun boat diplomacy, I support the muslim practice of decapitation when practiced in context of the Quran (as I understand it).
The extreamests that mudered our guys did not stick to the rules in their holy book.

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## Jana Lewis

Perhaps everyone is missing the point here..... 

They are beheading and killing Americans and their supporters because we have p*ssed them off beyond repair.  I don't understand why everyone is so shocked that these people are being taken hostage and being killed. This is the way these folks will behave until we either catch the appropriate people, or stop policies that over-run their countries.

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## Steve Machol

> Such as? And are you referring to Jewish Torah or Christian Bible?


King James version.  There are many instances of women and children being killed in the Old Testament with the blessing and encourgement of both God and the religious leaders of the day. I probably could do your work and search for these if you really don't believe it.  There is also a passage in the Old Testament where the testicles of all the men in a vanquished army were cut off and presented to the King of Israel.  I don't know if I can find that particular passage again but the point is that there are many things in the Bible that are considered 'barbaric' by today's standards.  




> I have trouble remembering Jesus condoning beheading or anything on that magnitude, but my memory of scripture isn't perfect.


Aye there's the rub.  Jesus was a far more compassionate man and religious leader than what is represented in many sections of the Old Testament.  For instance, Jesus never condemned homosexuality but that doesn't stop people from using his name to denigrate gays.  It is almost as if at least two entirely separate religions are presented in the Bible, yet most of Christianity accepts the Old Testament as part of the Word of God.   




> Yes, but they don't cut off heads on TV, take hostages, and do it in the name of their God.


Throughour history most religions have done this and worst.  Or more correctly most religions had adherents who did these things in the name of their religions.

I am not saying that religions are all bad.  What I am saying is that there are bad people in all religions.  I will concede that there does appear to be a much higher percentage of extremists in Islam than other major religions at this time.  However I believe this extremism is as much a political movement as it is a religious one.

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## walt

Drop cluster bombs and remove a ton of body parts at a time, no problem.
Drop napalm and roast a whole bunch of noncombatants at a time, no problem.
Bury a few legacy landmines for the kiddies, no problem.
But chop off the occasional head...

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## For-Life

Do you remember the incident a few years ago when two guys hooked a homosexual up to the back of their truck and drove off eventually killing him.  They did it in the name of Christianity.  Yet, I am a Christian and I believe Christianity is a very peaceful religion.

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## walt

> Perhaps everyone is missing the point here..... 
> 
> They are beheading and killing Americans and their supporters because we have p*ssed them off beyond repair. I don't understand why everyone is so shocked that these people are being taken hostage and being killed. This is the way these folks will behave until we either catch the appropriate people, or stop policies that over-run their countries.


Right on Jana.

Might also note that there hasn't been a single report of horrorism in Israel since Sharon announced some settlement closings in Gaza & West Bank.

It's about their land, not MTV.

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## Joann Raytar

> However I believe this extremism is as much a political movement as it is a religious one.


That I believe. Take the religion, and some followers who will blindly follow their leaders, out of the picture and it all breaks down to money and power for extremist leaders. It is politics disguised as religion.

Mrba is correct, these aren't normal executions.

Jana, I'm not shocked. Actually, I refuse to be shocked because that is what all of these televised acts, Fallujah and the beheadings, are about - shock value. The extremits know that they are a minority in a global scope of things and they are trying to make a big noise. They should also know that by going public with these acts of terrorism, they loose all of their bargaing chips. So why do it? Noise.

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## walt

> So why do it? Noise.


But also to scare off foreign workers, which will disrupt the flow of oil, destabilize governments and the world economy and your right to guzzle gas.

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## walt

> Mrba is correct, these aren't normal executions.


Is a "normal" execution sorta like a politically correct execution?

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## mrba

> Aye there's the rub. Jesus was a far more compassionate man and religious leader than what is represented in many sections of the Old Testament. For instance, Jesus never condemned homosexuality but that doesn't stop people from using his name to denigrate gays. It is almost as if at least two entirely separate religions are presented in the Bible, yet most of Christianity accepts the Old Testament as part of the Word of God.


Steve, I appreciate you bringing this up, my point being that Jesus did say "I give you a new commandment", and thats what I was getting at.  Christians do not practice the old testament but use it as reference for the post Jesus age.  Yes it is the word of God according to them, but God changes His mind.  That too is in the Bible.




> They are beheading and killing Americans and their supporters because we have p*ssed them off beyond repair. I don't understand why everyone is so shocked that these people are being taken hostage and being killed. This is the way these folks will behave until we either catch the appropriate people, or stop policies that over-run their countries.


Correct my memory of time line, but we invaded one of their countries second.  They attacked first.  We were once diplomats if I remember correctly.  But Jana, what is more disturbing is that you neglect to mention the terrorist desire to overthrow the house of Saud etc, and that there are other agendas at hand here.  Please do not think that our evil is foremost on their minds, as theirs is on ours.

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## jediron1

Thank You  Jana. I did not think it would take that many reply's to get that point.:o

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## Steve Machol

> Yes it is the word of God according to them, but God changes His mind. That too is in the Bible.


Really?  That's in the Bible? Why would a God that is all-powerful and all-knowing ever _change his/her mind_? _ _ 

At any rate, there is absolutely no doubt the the level of Islamic extremism is very high and rising rapidly.  I think it would be wise to better understand the root causes of this phenomenon in order to know how to fight it off successfully.

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## jediron1

Steve said:  I am not saying that religions are all bad. What I am saying is that there are bad people in all religions. I will concede that there does appear to be a much higher percentage of extremists in Islam than other major religions at this time. However I believe this extremism is as much a political movement as it is a religious one.

So the ball is in your court Steve! What's Your point! :Confused:

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## Steve Machol

If you couldn't understand what I wrote, then I really don't know how to explain it any better. Sorry.

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## jediron1

The reason I posted the way I posted was to get a dialogue going on peoples opinions. But I forgot opinions are like arm pits everybody has two of them. :hammer:

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## jediron1

Steve said:

I really don't think your diatribe against the entire Muslin faith is justified. After all there are quite a few things 'condoned' in the Bible that are equally 'barbaric' by today's standards. 

You really think the beheading as just diatribe! Come on Steve your smarter than that. An by the way I never mentioned any about the bible you did. You said "there are quite a few things in the bible that are eqully 'barbaric by today's standards" The problem is Steve the barbaric things are not done today. And if you would have read the quote by Ibn Ishaq then you would not have jumped to your conclusions, maybe.:hammer:

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## Steve Machol

You seem to be missing the point or I am missing yours. I agree that it was and is barbaric. You seemed to say that this kind of thing is condoned in the Koran and this is the cause of the problem:




> Well I did a cursory look and found that in the Koran *it does condone beheading* "According to Muhammads sacralized biography by Ibn Ishaq".


Did I misunderstand what your intent was? It sure looks to me like you are blaming the religion rather than extremists of that religion.  If that's not what you meant them I did misunderstand.

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## walt

> Really? That's in the Bible? Why would a God that is all-powerful and all-knowing ever _change his/her mind_? __ .


Just curious, does God have a gender, i.e, little distinguishing anatomical parts?  :Confused:

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## jediron1

Steve said
Did I misunderstand what your intent was? It sure looks to me like you are blaming the religion rather than extremists of that religion. If that's not what you meant them I did misunderstand.

I m not blaming the religion. I m blaming the people for using there religion for there own agendas. And if you would have read the quote by "Ibn Ishaq" where it can be found http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=13371 and  it does condone beheading. There many other articles where this can be found I just gave you one. So why is that so hard for you to understand? :hammer:

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## Steve Machol

> I m not blaming the religion. I m blaming the people for using there religion for there own agendas.


I agree.  In fact that's the point I was trying to make.  




> And if you would have read the quote by "Ibn Ishaq" where it can be found http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=13371 and it does condone beheading. There many other articles where this can be found I just gave you one. So why is that so hard for you to understand? :hammer:


And what point do you think I fail to understand?  I haven't read the Koran but assuming beheading is condoned as this article suggests - so what?  There are many things 'condoned' in the Bible that I believe most reasonable people today would agree are wrong.  I don't have the time to find the similar passages in the Bible buyt they are there.  

The point is that most people of both religions - Christianity and Islam - nowadays reject these methods.  However there is no doubt that the level of Islamic extremism is very high.  What also disturbs me is the relative silence among the more mainstrean Islamic leaders who do not agree with what the terrorists among their midsts are doing.  I think we agree on more than you think.

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## walt

> What also disturbs me is the relative silence among the more mainstrean Islamic leaders who do not agree with what the terrorists among their midsts are doing.


Disagreement may not be sensational enough to get airtime?
Or maybe they just value their lives?
Nobody wants to be a lightning rod in this sh*tstorm.

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## chip anderson

Read a biography of Gen. John J. (Blackjack) Pershing, he knew how to deal with moslem extreemist.


Chip

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## mrba

> Just curious, does God have a gender, i.e, little distinguishing anatomical parts?


As an amature biblical scholar I would say that many main line theologians would agree that God is more feminine than the most feminine woman, and more masculine than the most masculine man.


It really has nothing to do with body parts.

Just words for thought.

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## walt

Very graphic. Thanks for the visual. :cheers:

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## chip anderson

Gender of God:  Mary got pregnant, and God definitely does not approve of same sex marriage.

Chip :Eek:

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## jediron1

Chip not only Pershing but General McCarther would have stood for none of this!
:D

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## jediron1

Steve said:

The point is that most people of both religions - Christianity and Islam - nowadays reject these methods. However there is no doubt that the level of Islamic extremism is very high. What also disturbs me is the relative silence among the more mainstrean Islamic leaders who do not agree with what the terrorists among their midsts are doing. I think we agree on more than you think.

One of two premises comes to mind. One the Islamic leaders inwardly agree or two: They are too scared to say anything thinking they might be next.:D

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## karen

Has anyone here read the Koran?  Is it like the Bible with different translations?  ( ie. NKJV, NIV etc..)  I am thinking I should read it before I jump into this one.  I have been told that it says to murder us infidels but I probably need to read it myself before I quote it   :Cool:  I think we should stop expecting extremists (regardless of their religion) to behave in a civilized manner.

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## mrba

> Really? That's in the Bible? Why would a God that is all-powerful and all-knowing ever _change his/her mind_? __


I found many examples, but here are just 3...
Ex 33:14
Hos 11:8
Jonah 3:9

KJV (your preference)

God's actions are not only determined by His mind, but by His heart as well. There are repeated instances of God wanting to do one thing but out of compassion or justice doing another etc... I suppose these aren't massive changes of mind, but the point is that God's steadfastness sometimes appears otherwise, to us whos perception of Him is limited. Just know that on one hand He never changes, but on the other we precieve it as a change, although in His big picture He is constant.

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## chip anderson

Karen:

I don't think the Koran has been fully translated, something to do with it being against moslem law to pass the knowledge to infidels.  I do know that Moslems are not permitted to lie to moslems but lying to infidels is O.K.   Moslems are forbidden to kill moslems, but the killing of infidels is not a sin.  He who dies in service of "Alah" gets a bunch of virgins, what for and wherefrom I don't know.
The drinking of alcohol is forbidden, but he who follows the Koran will go to heaven be waited on by "hories" (females) and have fountains of bubbling wine.

Don't know if women are allowed into heaven (the houris may be newly furnished or from earthly stock, this is not clear.)  


Chip

Also Turkey is full of "secular moslems" who are like Christmas and Easter only Chistians.

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## jediron1

Steve said:

The fault lies with the Islamic extremists who take a distorted view of their religious precepts - not the religion itself. Unfortunately there are similar extremists in virtually all religions.

If that is the case Steve why were there hundreds of thousands of Muslims cheering when 9-11 occurred? That was not just a bunch of Islamic
extremists. They showed thousands cheering when it was shown on Islamic T.V.
This is not extremist as you like to point out, it is a way of life with the Islamic people. Did you not see them dragging people (our people) that were dead through the streets with hundreds of people cheering? And why throw the phrase in: "Unfortunately there are similar extremists in virtually all religions".
Where have you seen recent beheadings? In Christianty or Buddhism or Hinduism or Taoism? No you won't find them because they have grown beyond that way of life. The way of the sword that Mohammad brought has not left, it is still deeply rooted in the Islamic faith.:hammer:

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## Joann Raytar

> Steve said:
> 
> If that is the case Steve why were there hundreds of thousands of Muslims cheering when 9-11 occurred?


If the guy holding the Sarin gas says jump, you jump. If he says cheer, you cheer.

Why did Muslims knock Sadam's statue down when the US ousted him?

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## rep

I am stunned by the board comments infering that we are to blame for the beheadings and even 9/11. I feel Neal Boortz has answered this question pretty well. We are not to blame, but we have a lot to lose. Are we willing to give up our constitutional rights for what some see as security? If so I can see us following the path of Spain.



Just why did these Muslims attack us, and can it be said today that their attack failed or succeeded? 

For starters, you can forget blaming our involvement in the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The so-called Palestinians have never been much more than useful fools for the Islamic Jihad movement anyway; pathetic tokens to be used to further the dominance of Islam over first the Middle East, then the world. 

No --- they didn't attack America because of our support for Israel, just as they don't love us because we have committed U.S. troops to battle three times in the past 12 years; in Kuwait, Somalia and Kosovo, to protect Muslims. They attacked America because America is the prime and glaring example of the very human values that spell certain doom to their dream of Islamic world domination. America was targeted because we're free and because we repeatedly show that we can change our own leadership without violence, without bloodshed and turmoil. Leadership changes make the mullahs nervous. America was targeted because we are a nation that demonstrates, day after day, how many different religions; Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism; can live and prosper together. We were targeted because we have shown the world that a rule of law, not the mindless and cruel dictates of a religious cult, can protect the peace and ensure the harmony of people of all faiths living together in liberty. We were targeted, and we remain a target, because we've been on a roll for over 400 years and still haven't reached our peak --- while Islam reached its cultural dominance 500 years ago and it's been pretty much been rocketing down a mud slide to hell since then. 

Now, one year later, just what have the Islamic Jihadists we call terrorists accomplished? Well, they destroyed two of America's landmarks, and damaged a third. They killed over 2,800 people. They brought death and destruction on their own people and their violent religious cult --- for them, a small price that they pay willingly. But, beyond that, is it possible the Muslim murderers accomplished more than they dared hope? Is it possible that they've struck an even more serious blow to freedom and liberty than they had imagined? 

Maybe the answer could be found in a poll taken about two weeks ago. It was this year's installment of an annual poll on the public's attitudes toward our Bill of Rights. The majority of people who responded to this poll said, in essence, that we have too many freedoms in America, and they are perfectly willing to trade some of these freedoms for protection against further attacks from the Islamic Jihadists. Over one-half of the people who participated in this poll said that the rights protected in the first ten amendments to our Constitution were too broad, and they needed to be scaled back --- all in the name of security. 

The least popular freedom? Freedom of the press. That very portion of our First Amendment that protects our right to a free flow of information about an entity that can legally use deadly force to accomplish its goals  our government  and this is the least popular portion of our Bill of Rights? 

Every tyrant needs complete control over the means of communication. China controls access to the Internet, as do many other totalitarian countries. You can be jailed in many Islamic theocracies for simply owning a satellite dish. When leftist revolutions occur, the sources of communication and information are the first things to be seized. In America  post 9/11  we have a majority of citizens who, on the one hand, will profess their love of freedom; but who, on the other hand, will tell you that there is just too much freedom of the press, and the government needs to do something about it. 

Could the Islamic Jihadists have known that Americans would react this way to their murderous attack? You know, it doesn't really matter. Planned result or not, the terrorists have much to celebrate. Their hatred of our freedoms caused them to attack, and our love of freedom has become a casualty. 

Now, here we are, one year later. It's September 11, 2002. The offices that were destroyed in the Pentagon are being refurnished and reoccupied. The location of the crash of United Flight 93 in Pennsylvania is hallowed ground, and the site of the World Trade Towers has been turned from a clean-up project to a construction project. Physical damage is easily repaired. Not so, the damage to our national mindset. 

The National Archives of the United States have an interesting little project going on. You can go to the National archives website and virtually sign the Declaration of Independence. You type your name, select a colonial era writing style, and then print out a full color copy of the Declaration with your signature right down there with those of our founding fathers. Before you sign, though, you are asked to remember what happened to many of those who actually did sign in 1776. These men pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to the cause of freedom. Their signatures made them traitors in the eyes of the King. Rewards were posted for their capture  and the British armada was waiting offshore. Sign, and risk losing everything? Or not sign and live securely, though not free, under British rule? 

Would the American people choose the path of liberty today? Would the same people who think that our Bill of Rights goes too far be willing to pledge their lives, their fortune and their honor to fight for freedom above security? Many of the men who signed the Declaration died because of that signature. Others lost their property, their liberty and their families. Do men like that walk among us today? Are we, as Americans, worthy of their sacrifice? 

Today our government is seizing American citizens and locking them away without any due process. There is precedence for this. The British did much the same thing after our Declaration was signed. Then we fought the injustice. Today we make excuses for it. 

Maybe we can spend this first anniversary of September 11th honoring those who died and those who protected us. Maybe, just maybe, after today we can try to rededicate ourselves to the same principals that brought us the men and women who put their lives on the line in 1776. America is great because we are free. America is great because those who came before us valued freedom above security. America was attacked because our freedom is a threat to tyrants, religious and otherwise. Are you one of those who profess your willingness, even eagerness, to trade away some of that freedom? Is it security you now seek? Perhaps you should consider those in our society who are truly secure. They live in solitary confinement in some of our prisons. We call them "maximum security prisons" for a reason. 

What is our choice going to be? Will we chose a secure life overseen by your friendly local government warden, or will we chose the brilliance and uncertainty of freedom? 

It's September 11th, 2002. It's time to decide. © 2002 Neal Boortz


Rep

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## hcjilson

You folks seem to be talking about this conflict as a recent thing. The struggle in which we find ourselves had its origins in 1095, when Pope Urban II called for a crusade to take Jerusalem. This is known as the first crusade. It is telling to read an eyewitness account of how the "civilized westerners" took the city, and then what transpired immediately afterward.

"The pillage of Jerusalem
Now that our men had possession of the walls and towers, wonderful sights were to be seen.  Some of our men (and this was merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot  them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into the flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses.  But these were small matters compared with what happened in the Temple of Solomon, a place  where religious services are normally chanted. What happened there? If I tell the truth,  you would not believe it. Suffice to say that, in the Temple and Porch of Solomon, men  rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid  judgement of God that this place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers, since  it had suffered so long from their blasphemies. The city was filled with corpses and  blood."
From Raymond d'Aguilers,* Historia francorum qui ceprint Jerusalem

It would appear that we "Christians" taught a few lessons in occupation too!

Concerning God's position on how we act.........God only gave us this gift of life.....what we do with it is up to us! My guess is that God is not too pleased with how we've handled humanity, and what we've done in God's name.

My belief only.....I can't speak for God.

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## Jana Lewis

> Steve, I appreciate you bringing this up, my point being that Jesus did say "I give you a new commandment", and thats what I was getting at. Christians do not practice the old testament but use it as reference for the post Jesus age. Yes it is the word of God according to them, but God changes His mind. That too is in the Bible.
> 
> 
> Correct my memory of time line, but we invaded one of their countries second. They attacked first. We were once diplomats if I remember correctly. But Jana, what is more disturbing is that you neglect to mention the terrorist desire to overthrow the house of Saud etc, and that there are other agendas at hand here. Please do not think that our evil is foremost on their minds, as theirs is on ours.


Mrba..... with all due respect.....

We invaded their countries second?? Second to what? Please don't tell me 9/11.... that is such a sham. Please come up with something better. ;) 

Is is disturbing that I failed to mention the house of Saudi?  How is that disturbing?  Americans have been working safely in Saudi Arabia for years, it's only recent that these extremists started to capture them and behead them... ask yourself....why are they doing that now? 

And yes... JIHAD... HOLY WAR... is specifically aimed at Americans and their supporters "our evil is foremost on their minds" Please tell me otherwise.

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## chm2023

> Right on Jana.
> 
> Might also note that there hasn't been a single report of horrorism in Israel since Sharon announced some settlement closings in Gaza & West Bank.
> 
> It's about their land, not MTV.


Huh?  There have been numerous incidents--and deaths--since Sharon's February announcement.

Extremists cloaking themselves in religion is an old, old story.  And people reacting negatively to the religion instead of the extremists is equally old.  Humankind seems to have little capacity for learning.

I'm curious about the beheading issue--the news media talk about it as if beheading were worse than shooting or hanging or whatever.  As methods of murder/execution go, it has a long history (see Wives of H 8 or the French Revolution).  Seems strange to fixate on the means rather than the terrible end.

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## chm2023

> Gender of God: Mary got pregnant, and God definitely does not approve of same sex marriage.
> 
> Chip


Well if you want to go down that road, Mary was pregnant before she got married.  Sooo we should assume God approves of un-wed mothers? 

(FELLOW OPTI-BOARDERS:  PLEASE understand the above is meant to be comical and underscore the inherent ridiculousness of assigning human form and values to the Almighty.  Do not respond literally with biblical references, high umbrage etc.  Thank you for your support.)

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## Steve Machol

> If that is the case Steve why were there hundreds of thousands of Muslims cheering when 9-11 occurred? That was not just a bunch of Islamic extremists.


Read a little closer. In fact, I said:




> However there is no doubt that the level of Islamic extremism is very high.


I believe the people doing this and cheering them on are 'extremists'. You believe that these actions are condoned by the Islamic faith and all of it's adherents and leaders. I disagree with that assessment. I do agree that there is a very large number of Islamic extremists, and there ranks are growing every day.




> I am stunned by the board comments infering that we are to blame for the beheadings and even 9/11.


With all due respect I don't see any evidence that anyone said any such thing. What exactly are you refering to?  :Confused: 




> Maybe the answer could be found in a poll taken about two weeks ago. It was this year's installment of an annual poll on the public's attitudes toward our Bill of Rights. The majority of people who responded to this poll said, in essence, that we have too many freedoms in America, and they are perfectly willing to trade some of these freedoms for protection against further attacks from the Islamic Jihadists.


This frighens me more than the terrorists. I'm very concerned and more than a little disappointed that people are so willing to give up the freedoms we have. In this respect, I agree with the author. This is exactly what the terrorists want.

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## jediron1

Rep said:

I am stunned by the board comments infering that we are to blame for the beheadings and even 9/11

Rep I could not agree more. That is one of my points that I was trying to make and people seem to be missing it. That is, people on this board seem to infer that we are the one's to blame. Unbelievable!:hammer:

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## Steve Machol

> Rep I could not agree more. That is one of my points that I was trying to make and people seem to be missing it. That is, people on this board seem to infer that we are the one's to blame. Unbelievable!:hammer:


I asked this before and it went unanswered.  Where exactly did _anyone_ say or infer such a thing?  I believe you are reading into people's comments what you want to see, not what they actually wrote. :)

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## Joann Raytar

> I'm curious about the beheading issue--the news media talk about it as if beheading were worse than shooting or hanging or whatever. As methods of murder/execution go, it has a long history (see Wives of H 8 or the French Revolution). Seems strange to fixate on the means rather than the terrible end.


Not to be morbid but from what I understand, the difference between a "real" Saudi state execution and what was filmed is a big one. Politically ordered executions are done in an orderely fashion, usually in a location not too different from your local town green. The executionser's blade is sharp and swift and it is over in seconds. (A quicker way than any method of execution in the US) The beheading in question was long and drawn out, hacking rather than a swift stroke. The importance - this was a small gang of thugs; not an official entity or a typical execution.  It was a media show; unfortunately, it was a terribly violent show they put on.

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## jediron1

Jo said:

If the guy holding the Sarin gas says jump, you jump. If he says cheer, you cheer.

Why did Muslims knock Sadam's statue down when the US ousted him?

The problem is Jo that as you say the guy holding the Sarin gas did not ask the Muslims around the world to jump, cheer or what ever, they did it on there own.
Sure they knocked down the statue, but these are the same people who are shooting back at our troops. You can't have it both ways Jo!:hammer:

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## jediron1

Jana said:
We invaded their countries second?? Second to what? Please don't tell me 9/11.... that is such a sham. Please come up with something better.

This is such a sham! Why because Clinton said so? Come on Jana you can do better than that. You mean to tell me that within all these posts of extremists
floating around that the Muslims who took over those planes were not? And the links they made to Al Quaeda are not valid? Really! :hammer:

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## jediron1

Steve said:

I asked this before and it went unanswered. Where exactly did _anyone_ say or infer such a thing? I believe you are reading into people's comments what you want to see, not what they actually wrote.

Steve your right I did jump the gun on that point. (No pun intended);)

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## Jana Lewis

> Jana said:
> We invaded their countries second?? Second to what? Please don't tell me 9/11.... that is such a sham. Please come up with something better.
> 
> This is such a sham! Why because Clinton said so? Come on Jana you can do better than that. You mean to tell me that within all these posts of extremists
> floating around that the Muslims who took over those planes were not? And the links they made to Al Quaeda are not valid? Really! :hammer:


Because Clinton said so??? Come on..... I could CARE less what Clinton has to say about 9/11. How about an independent panel investigating 9/11, that found NO DIRECT LINK between Al Queda and Iraq? Show me some real concrete evidence, and I will gladly eat crow. :p 

And yes... it was Muslims who comandered the planes... I believe that these guys were from Saudi and Egypt... not Iraq. These guys were part of Al queda....... Not one thing to with Saddam or Iraq. So please..... what is your point?

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## rep

You asked where I picked up on the blaming America and 9-11. This was the post by Jana





> They are beheading and killing Americans and their supporters because we have p*ssed them off beyond repair. I don't understand why everyone is so shocked that these people are being taken hostage and being killed. This is the way these folks will behave until we either catch the appropriate people, or stop policies that over-run their countries.


Her inference was further reinforced by this in the same thread 




> We invaded their countries second?? Second to what? Please don't tell me 9/11.... that is such a sham. Please come up with something better


Pretty convincing to me. Where do you see I interpreted it incorrectly?

Useless tripe to you and waste of board space to Shanbaum. 

I'm pretty disappointed as well. 

Rep

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## mrba

> Please don't tell me 9/11.... that is such a sham


911 a sham?  Ohhh sorry I missed that.

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## Spexvet

There is certainly ebb and flow to religious extremism, and Christianity flowed during the crusades, the spanish inquisition, and the witch hunts, but all Christians don't travel to Arabia to fight infidels or torture people.

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## Spexvet

> Such as? And are you referring to Jewish Torah or Christian Bible? I have trouble remembering Jesus condoning beheading or anything on that magnitude, but my memory of scripture isn't perfect.
> 
> Yes, but they don't cut off heads on TV, take hostages, and do it in the name of their God. Please describe to me how the Dali Lama, Pope, or Archbishop of Canteberry condone such extreme actions. What about Billy Grahm, or even that nut Fallwell?
> Although I can name main stream Muslim leaders that endorse beheading as the natural choice, I am at a loss for christian, buddhist, or Druid examples in modern time.
> 
> 
> Jedron,
> Although I concur with your sentiment towards our country, and a desparate need in the world for some gun boat diplomacy, I support the muslim practice of decapitation when practiced in context of the Quran (as I understand it).
> The extreamests that mudered our guys did not stick to the rules in their holy book.


Exodus 22
18Death is the punishment for witchcraft. 
19Death is the punishment for having sex with an animal. 
20Death is the punishment for offering sacrifices to any god except me. 
21Do not mistreat or abuse foreigners who live among you. Remember, you were foreigners in Egypt. 
22Do not mistreat widows or orphans. 23If you do, they will beg for my help, and I will come to their rescue. 24In fact, I will get so angry that I will kill your men and make widows of their wives and orphans of their children.

Exodus 32
26So Moses stood at the gate of the camp and shouted, " Everyone who is on the LORD's side come over here!" 
Then the men of the Levi tribe gathered around Moses, 27and he said to them, " The LORD God of Israel commands you to strap on your swords and go through the camp, killing your relatives, your friends, and your neighbors." 
28The men of the Levi tribe followed his orders, and that day they killed about three thousand men. 29Moses said to them, " You obeyed the LORD and did what was right, and so you will serve as his priests for the people of Israel. It was hard for you to kill your own sons and brothers, but the LORD has blessed you and made you his priests today." 

Leviticus 20
9If you curse your father or mother, you will be put to death, and it will be your own fault. 
10If any of you men have sex with another man's wife, both you and the woman will be put to death.

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## Spexvet

> Just curious, does God have a gender, i.e, little distinguishing anatomical parts?


God would have big parts

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## Spexvet

> Rep said:
> 
> I am stunned by the board comments infering that we are to blame for the beheadings and even 9/11
> 
> Rep I could not agree more. That is one of my points that I was trying to make and people seem to be missing it. That is, people on this board seem to infer that we are the one's to blame. Unbelievable!:hammer:


Typical conservative line: It's always YOUR fault. 

Step back, look it the mirror, put on your objectivity hat, and ask yourself "did we do ANYTHING that might make all these people hate us so much?"

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## mrba

> God would have big parts


Frank Lloyd Wright would say ..."Do you have an inferiority complex"...


(During a Mike Wallace interview Mike asked Frank something like ..."When you walk into a cathedral in Europe, aren't you in awe of the grandeur?"...)

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## jediron1

So *Spexvet what's your point? Are we not entitled to our opinions or is it just the lefts opinions that count? Commies are all alike. Anyone from the left must be a commie. :bbg:*

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## Spexvet

> So *Spexvet what's your point? Are we not entitled to our opinions or is it just the lefts opinions that count? Commies are all alike. Anyone from the left must be a commie. :bbg:*


Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. It's just interesting that the conservative opinion seem to always be the same:

We're always right and the rest of the world is always wrong.

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## mrba

> Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. It's just interesting that the conservative opinion seem to always be the same:
> 
> We're always right and the rest of the world is always wrong.


As opposed to ... say... the liberal opinion? :Confused:

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## Steve Machol

> It's just interesting that the conservative opinion seem to always be the same:
> 
> We're always right and the rest of the world is always wrong.





> As opposed to ... say... the liberal opinion?


This is a silly argument.  The truth is it's human nature for all of us to believe we are right and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong.  This is a human condition and not the mindset of any one idealogy.

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## mrba

> This is a silly argument. The truth is it's human nature for all of us to believe we are right and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong. This is a human condition and not the mindset of any one idealogy.


I wasn't making an argument.  I was trying to make the point you just made.  I concur.

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## jediron1

Steve said:

This is a silly argument. The truth is it's human nature for all of us to believe we are right and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong. This is a human condition and not the mindset of any one idealogy.

It seems to me that when Steve does not agree with you he comes up with the 
comment " so whats your point" or the above (This is a silly argument) The point
being (I beat you to the punch) there are conservative and liberal ideals and what was being said can be construed as being liberal or conservative. Everything cannot be painted into a little box and say that is the human condition. And what is your definition of the human condition? Now I would say lying
is a human condition. Right and wrong might in the right contexts be a human condition
but it could also be a learned response or as we said it could also be your idealogy.
:bbg:

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## Spexvet

> Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. It's just interesting that the conservative opinion seem to always be the same:
> 
> We're always right and the rest of the world is always wrong.


Let me rephrase:

The conservative opinion:

The US is always right, and the rest of the world is always wrong.

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## Spexvet

> Steve said:
> 
> This is a silly argument. The truth is it's human nature for all of us to believe we are right and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong. This is a human condition and not the mindset of any one idealogy.
> 
> It seems to me that when Steve does not agree with you he comes up with the 
> comment " so whats your point" or the above (This is a silly argument) The point
> being (I beat you to the punch) there are conservative and liberal ideals and what was being said can be construed as being liberal or conservative. Everything cannot be painted into a little box and say that is the human condition. And what is your definition of the human condition? Now I would say lying
> is a human condition. Right and wrong might in the right contexts be a human condition
> but it could also be a learned response or as we said it could also be your idealogy.
> :bbg:


What???????????????????????????????????????????????

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## Steve Machol

> What???????????????????????????????????????????????


 Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.  :Confused:

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## Judy Canty

> What???????????????????????????????????????????????


I thought I was having a stroke, but it was just the change in font size.:o

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## mrba

I think is means Spexvet just has questions???????????????????

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## jediron1

If you don't understand the above post Steve and Spexvet , I can't put it any simpler!:o

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## jediron1

Spexvet said:Let me rephrase:

The conservative opinion:

The US is always right, and the rest of the world is always wrong.

If that is the way you feel, Canada is not to far away. There thinking is along those same lines. :bbg:

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## Steve Machol

What I didn't understand was the attack on me:




> It seems to me that when Steve does not agree with you he comes up with the comment " so whats your point" or the above (This is a silly argument)


A quick perusal of my posts will show that is simply not true. Besides I was pointing out the fallacy of Spexvet's argument, which makes your attack all the more puzzling.




> The conservative opinion:
> 
> The US is always right, and the rest of the world is always wrong.


So let me ask you this. Did you have this opninion when Clinton was President? I know of a number of Republicans and Conservatives that harshly criticized Clinton's decision to intervene in both Somalia and Bosnia. Were you one of the exceptions that supported him and the US all the way?

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## Steve Machol

> Everything cannot be painted into a little box and say that is the human condition. And what is your definition of the human condition? Now I would say lying is a human condition. Right and wrong might in the right contexts be a human condition but it could also be a learned response or as we said it could also be your idealogy.
> :bbg:


Wow - you sure read a lot into what I thought was a pretty clear and obvious statement.  Maybe the words 'human condition' were confusing to you.  What I meant was that it is human nature for all of us to believe that we are right and the people who disagree with us are wrong.  

I didn't realize this was such a controversial viewpoint.  Does this mean we can expect to see an opposing view on this important issue in the Republican platform? ;)

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## jediron1

Steve said that I said: 
Spexvet said:Let me rephrase:

The conservative opinion:

The US is always right, and the rest of the world is always wrong.

I did not make that comment Spexvet did. I was only commenting on his remake!

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