# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  The Seiko Superior Lens?

## SailorEd

Any feedback?  Is it competing against the S series?  Pricing (In General)?  What have you heard?

----------


## Boldt

I think of them as the quite kid at the back of the class that likes to laugh at most of the other kids. 
Price wise there is not contest Seiko will beat any of the Named lenses, even Shamir. (kinda makes me frown)  Quality wise I've fit a few and never had a single non-adapt. Some have odd fittings like a 2 drop or blocking at the 180, that scares some opticians though. They are thinner for the most part than comparable lenses. As far as going head to head with a S, I'd put money on the Seiko. Any day of the week.

----------


## sharpstick777

I am trying to wear all of the Superiors, but so far I am incredibly impressed in 2 of 3.  It has the most complicated corridor in the industy, think of it like a Free-form lens INSIDE a Free-form lens.  I count in my math around 6.2 million possible corridor combinations based on sphere, cyl, add, inset, panto and seg height variables.   That is just the corridor.

For comparison most corridor combinations even if Free-form are about.... 36.

The corridor is the most ancient piece of design we have on lenses today.  its essentially copied from standard progressives.  

The distance zone is *spectacular*, the result is that the corridor goes farther any other to balance unwanted lateral near prism.  The result is very very low swim or sway, or fatigue.   So top and bottom its a pretty great lens.  I am going to get an Auto III to compare the whole series with...  

But right now it exceeds my Zeiss Individual 2 and matches Shaw Lens in Distance clarity (the current DVA champ in my stable), beating out my Auto II, InTouch, GT2-3D and Choice.  and but it also brings and enhanced near clarity that has not been matched in any other lens.

Add that with the potential to reduce near field fatigue, and its wide design base, and its contention for best Distance Lens in the World.

I have worn the S Design, and Fit, and found both terrible.. DVA was 60 feet less than my InTouch or Surmount, and 90 feet less than my current distance champ the Shaw Lens (I have a green freeway sign I use for DVA testing). after 2 redo's just to make sure I didn't get a bad one.  The second was better but those rank as the worst lenses I have ever worn.  Gave them a month of full time wear too.  Physio DRx is in my opinion Essilor's best lens in my RX but it has a inexplicably long adaptation period.  

For reference, I am -1.00 -50, -1.25 -.50 with a +1.50 add.  Add is changing though, dag nab it.

----------


## NCspecs

Van, The Superior, is it a variable corridor lens? When you say "2 of 3" are there different styles? I'd like to know more about Seiko's offerings since they do so well for me.

----------


## sharpstick777

NCspecs, it has officially 11 fitting heights, but there is a variable version in my computer.  But what that really means it has 22 fitting heights.  The real variability of the corridor however is laterally.  It will realign the entire corridor, both in path and direction in .1 mm increments to keep the corridor underneath the eyepath.  Eyepath is greatly affected by power, cyl especially.  Eyepath is also VERY different for myopes and hyperopes.  and only 5% of patients converge the standard 2.5mm each side.  Most free-form lenses have a straight drop to a fixed inset.  The Superior realigns the entire length of the corridor based on each power and near PD.    

So a few lenses have a variable seg height, but they don't relalign the corridor, and they don't provide for specific near PD.  The rare ones that have a few variable inset options only base the inset on the base curve, so its not truly freeform, and it doesn't take into account the true near PD.  In some cases esp wraps or flat frames it can make it much worse. 

The result is that even in most free-form lenses alignment is poor, and near PDs are not taken into account. Its probably the number one issue with FF lenses today.  Seiko covers that issue with more precision than any other manufacturer right now in the Superior.

----------


## sharpstick777

With the 2 of 3, the Superior offers 3 different designs.  The FAR design is like the InTouch.  The Balanced design is close the Auto II in a T Shape.  The NEAR design is close the Comfort DRx with a very wide reading zone.

----------


## Jason H

Thank - you Van. Great information.

----------


## NCspecs

> With the 2 of 3, the Superior offers 3 different designs.  The FAR design is like the InTouch.  The Balanced design is close the Auto II in a T Shape.  The NEAR design is close the Comfort DRx with a very wide reading zone.



 Excellent info. Jason and I just got off the phone a moment ago and we were discussing this thread.

Would you fit this more on a mild myope to a higher hyperope?  

Also, another question, if someone struggles with a convergence issue, will this be a greater boon to them because their eyes don't have to work as hard to follow a traditional PAL corridor or will they have difficulty fusing their near vision? 

I am excited to try this technology!

----------


## sharpstick777

Adult convergence disorders have never been well studied in the US.  I came across 2 studies in Europe that gave an indication that up to 19% of adults may have some latent convergence issues that were never fully solved.

My own experience in Ophthalmology in analyzing progressive non-adapts found that almost 2x as many non-adapts had childhood issues such as "lazy-eye" that seemed to be resurfacing in some way (often post cataract surgery).  

What I recommend is to take near PDs on all progressive patients, but esp non-adapts.  If there is 1mm or more difference between convergences OD and OS then the Seiko lines could be a huge help.  If there is less than 3.0 mm total (common in high myopes) then the Seiko lenses can be a huge help.

I just worked with a high myope Optician who can't wear most progressives.  Interestingly, she never had taken a near PD (I can't explain that).  When I took her near PD her total convergence was .5 mm (yes, point 5 mm) on two pupilometers.  It explained a problem she has had for over 15 years.  The Seiko lenses were godsend to her.   How many others patients are like this?  No one really knows but its worth screening for.




> Excellent info. Jason and I just got off the phone a moment ago and we were discussing this thread.
> 
> Would you fit this more on a mild myope to a higher hyperope?  
> 
> Also, another question, if someone struggles with a convergence issue, will this be a greater boon to them because their eyes don't have to work as hard to follow a traditional PAL corridor or will they have difficulty fusing their near vision? 
> 
> I am excited to try this technology!

----------


## dv

I was recently approached by one of my labs regarding these new Seiko lenses and have been hesitant to try them. I have been using the Comfort as my go to lens due to the significant decrease in non-adapts but am totally open to any lens that can compete with it VA wise and cost wise. Glad to see that there's good feedback coming through. Any suggestions fitting wise? I tend to fit the Comforts 2-3 mm lower than pupil center and have no problems.

----------


## Tallboy

> I tend to fit the Comforts 2-3 mm lower than pupil center and have no problems.


this is not a good practice.

----------


## sharpstick777

> Any suggestions fitting wise? I tend to fit the Comforts 2-3 mm lower than pupil center and have no problems.


Most modern free-form lenses must be fit on center for acceptable results, they include a drop already, and you could mess up the aspherics and misalign the corridors.  Anything fully 100% Free-form and launched in the last 4 years applies.

----------


## dv

Not dispensing the free forms

----------


## golfnut

> Not dispensing the free forms


do you mean you haven't or you just don't want to?

----------


## dv

Haven't had the need. I have tried the free forms on the Doc and he doesn't notice a difference. I don't see a reason to sell an "upgraded" product when it comes with a much higher price tag without giving a significant "wow" factor. Still waiting for that. I will be experimenting with the new Seiko options for the doc to see if he gets a wow factor or not.

----------


## golfnut

I would try them on the patients as just relying on what your Dr thinks seems very close minded? I am surprised you pay that much more for the some of the new designs? I pay as much for the comfort /physios as I do for some of the shamir freeform. It would be like me saying I will just stick to my old brick cell phone instead of the fancy new phones because the call quality is not "that much" better?? The science is definitely there I just feel you need a much larger test group IMHO.

----------


## dv

I can absolutely see how it may seem close-minded. And yes you are correct, I do need a larger test group. Right now I only have two people in the office who wear progressives. We are a very small office.  I have practically a 0% non adapt rate so far. The price point on the regular non-free form Comforts is right on the line as to what my patients can afford. These are patients that in the past had been in old fashioned Outlooks, Image, and at one point the optician here would only dispense regular SolaMax. We would have non adapts all the time which would take up valuable chair time. Of course with so many parameters coming into play regarding whether a patient will adapt or not (correct SH, fitting of frame, explanation of how to use them etc), I am sure the possibilities are endless and not necessarily an issue regarding the lenses themselves. All I can go by is the fact that ever since I have been thrust into full responsibility of the dispensing (aside from everything else) I have had consistent success and patient satisfaction with the Comfort. I am open to newer options if the price is the same. I don't have many patients that can afford more than what we are charging for the Comfort as is. But this is why I posted the question. I rely on the experience and wisdom of others as well. And very grateful for it. I am open to any suggestions you all may have.

----------


## Tallboy

Try it on a patient with a high cyl, or a high minus, or a frame with a fitting "wrap" of over 7 degrees (this includes more frames than you think).  Let them know they are going to be a "guinea pig" for a new lens, most patients with difficult RX's enjoy feeling like they are on the forefront of technology.

We just changed patient who had been wearing a comfort enhanced (basically a comfort slightly optimized for RX) into a fully position of wear optimized lens, just my lab's house meat and potatos IOT freeform, and teh patient  was astounded by how much better the reading was, not to mention the peripheral distortion.

I use many lenses, including traditionally surfaced Physios and Comforts.  But you should be including newer designs in your tool box, IMHO.

----------


## Tallboy

I am going to start working with Seiko freeform lenses, I'm just getting sick of hearing how good they are I need to use them.  What ARs are you guys using on the Superior lens?  This is a dealbreaker for me, especially in the higher indexes, we try to only sell super high grade AR....

----------


## Boldt

I used the house AR, from what I saw it's on par with sapphire, only with a  slight red tint instead of a blue. I've used every thing from the el cheapo to the best. keep with what you're doing on the AR and you'll be fine.

----------


## SailorEd

> I am going to start working with Seiko freeform lenses, I'm just getting sick of hearing how good they are I need to use them.  What ARs are you guys using on the Superior lens?  This is a dealbreaker for me, especially in the higher indexes, we try to only sell super high grade AR....


With my lab, I use the Crizal Avance' with 1.50, 1.60 and 1.67.  With Trivex, it's Zeiss Purecoat.  I don't use poly.

----------


## dv

> Try it on a patient with a high cyl, or a high minus, or a frame with a fitting "wrap" of over 7 degrees (this includes more frames than you think).  Let them know they are going to be a "guinea pig" for a new lens, most patients with difficult RX's enjoy feeling like they are on the forefront of technology.
> 
> We just changed patient who had been wearing a comfort enhanced (basically a comfort slightly optimized for RX) into a fully position of wear optimized lens, just my lab's house meat and potatos IOT freeform, and teh patient  was astounded by how much better the reading was, not to mention the peripheral distortion.
> 
> I use many lenses, including traditionally surfaced Physios and Comforts.  But you should be including newer designs in your tool box, IMHO.


Thanks for the advise. The Doc is a high cyl and high minus which is why I like to use him as my "go to" guinea pig. My mom and pop lab is offering the Seiko freeforms to me. They will be doing some branded under them or something like that. I prefer to always go with and support my mom and pop shop when possible so I will be testing these out in the next few weeks. If they offer equal or better results than the Comfort I will be going with them. Any specific other advise anyone would like to throw at my I am ready to receive :)

Again , thank you for the advise. Its SOOOO appreciated and welcomed.

----------


## Uilleann

Can these be got through Digital Eye Lab yet?  They're not showing on their provider portal of lenses yet...and I'm still waiting to hear back from our rep (called him late last week).

----------


## Paul Smith LDO

> Can these be got through Digital Eye Lab yet?  They're not showing on their provider portal of lenses yet...and I'm still waiting to hear back from our rep (called him late last week).


I spoke with Mike at DEL, they should be available soon.

----------


## Judy Canty

Luzerne has them now.

----------


## golfnut

> Luzerne has them now.


                                                                        Great! Can't wait to give them a try.!

----------


## SailorEd

> I can absolutely see how it may seem close-minded. And yes you are correct, I do need a larger test group. Right now I only have two people in the office who wear progressives. We are a very small office.  I have practically a 0% non adapt rate so far. The price point on the regular non-free form Comforts is right on the line as to what my patients can afford. These are patients that in the past had been in old fashioned Outlooks, Image, and at one point the optician here would only dispense regular SolaMax. We would have non adapts all the time which would take up valuable chair time. Of course with so many parameters coming into play regarding whether a patient will adapt or not (correct SH, fitting of frame, explanation of how to use them etc), I am sure the possibilities are endless and not necessarily an issue regarding the lenses themselves. All I can go by is the fact that ever since I have been thrust into full responsibility of the dispensing (aside from everything else) I have had consistent success and patient satisfaction with the Comfort. I am open to newer options if the price is the same. I don't have many patients that can afford more than what we are charging for the Comfort as is. But this is why I posted the question. I rely on the experience and wisdom of others as well. And very grateful for it. I am open to any suggestions you all may have.


"People don't buy what they need, people buy what they want.  All you have to do to be successful in sales is provide that "want".  

Zig Zigler

"How do people know what they want unless we show them?"

Steve Jobs, Apple

Those are the two things I apply to Every Patient, whether they wear a suit in or ragged clothes.  I never judge what a patient can "afford".  And, I sell nothing but Premium Free Form lenses for progressives and the frames on my board start at $120.  And, I'm located in the "Rust Belt" of the country.

----------


## Judy Canty

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."  --Henry Ford

----------


## SailorEd

> "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."  --Henry Ford


Ok, Judy.  Here's a question for you.  With the Superior lens, I "believe" that the measurements required to optomally process the lens, besides the normal measurements, are:

Angle of facial formAngle of panto tilt

I don't believe vertex distance is necessary, although I may be wrong.  

Do you know if there is anything else?

And, ah, hmmm.  Faster Horses.  Henry Ford Huh?

I like this better:

"Faster Horses, Younger Women, Stronger Whiskey and More Money" ... Tom T. Hall. :Rolleyes:

----------


## Judy Canty

You can also customize for preferred reading distance.

http://seikoeyewear.com/media/wysiwyg/jcob/Superior.pdf

----------


## Paul Smith LDO

> You can also customize for preferred reading distance.
> 
> http://seikoeyewear.com/media/wysiwyg/jcob/Superior.pdf


Judy, can't the reading distance be customized during the refraction or through trail framing.  Would you not also require the full ADD along with the refracted near focal and the desired customized near?  It seems a bit redundant to me.

----------


## Judy Canty

The customization is for the inset, enabling the Optician to choose between 0.0mm and 5.0mm in 0.1mm increments and the inset can be chosen individually for right and left lenses.  

In theory, you're correct, the reading distance correction should be calculated during the exam or with a trial frame.  In practice, it's rarely done.  There just isn't time any more.  

I can't remember the last time my personal OD or my OMD asked me to demonstrate my most comfortable reading position.

----------


## Paul Smith LDO

> The customization is for the inset, enabling the Optician to choose between 0.0mm and 5.0mm in 0.1mm increments and the inset can be chosen individually for right and left lenses.  
> 
> In theory, you're correct, the reading distance correction should be calculated during the exam or with a trial frame.  In practice, it's rarely done.  There just isn't time any more.  
> 
> I can't remember the last time my personal OD or my OMD asked me to demonstrate my most comfortable reading position.


We do it all day long here.  Thanks for the info.

----------


## SailorEd

> We do it all day long here.  Thanks for the info.


Paul, just a sidenote here, and I know it's off-topic.  I know the state of Washington has licensing requirements for their opticians and I believe it is really strict.  Here in Northwestern Pa. we are flanked to the east by New York and to the west by Ohio, both have licensing requirements.  It kills me to see the level of unprofessionalism and lack of knowledge among our "opticians" in a state that does not require ANYTHING to be an optician.  Many "opticians" can't even use a lensometer.  They have no idea.  Many places hire people who they deem are good at sales and then give them a little knowledge and tell them to "sell, sell, sell".  Well, at least we are not in the stone age here since Pennsylvania DOES require a license to cut hair!

----------


## Paul Smith LDO

> Paul, just a sidenote here, and I know it's off-topic.  I know the state of Washington has licensing requirements for their opticians and I believe it is really strict.  Here in Northwestern Pa. we are flanked to the east by New York and to the west by Ohio, both have licensing requirements.  It kills me to see the level of unprofessionalism and lack of knowledge among our "opticians" in a state that does not require ANYTHING to be an optician.  Many "opticians" can't even use a lensometer.  They have no idea.  Many places hire people who they deem are good at sales and then give them a little knowledge and tell them to "sell, sell, sell".  Well, at least we are not in the stone age here since Pennsylvania DOES require a license to cut hair!


Yes, but they know how to fit a POL, sell a transmission, and don't get me started with, - cyl axis at.  As far as your last statement is concerned, the writing is on the wall and I think we had better opticians in the stone age.

----------


## Judy Canty

> We do it all day long here.  Thanks for the info.


Fortunately, since my iFit will measure my reading distance, I can calculate the power I need.   :Cool:

----------


## Uilleann

Any real world users of this lens getting feedback as yet?  I know it's still hot off the presses...but wondering if any patient data has started to come in yet?

----------


## Uncle Fester

Anyone know when this will be VSP eligible? I don't see it listed yet in products drop down.

Comped pair to my co-hort in crime loves his.

-4.00ish add+2.50

----------


## Uilleann

> Anyone know when this will be VSP eligible? I don't see it listed yet in products drop down.
> 
> Comped pair to my co-hort in crime loves his.
> 
> -4.00ish add+2.50


If we know VSP - probably never.  Or if they do add, it is likely to be years down the line, in a new category requiring a co-pay almost equal to the retail cost of the lens anyway.  ;)

----------


## sharpstick777

> Anyone know when this will be VSP eligible?


Since VSP has their own house line, they are making impossible for many manufacturers to get approved...  despite the great technology.  Seiko doesn't play VSPs new game, and they are unlikely to be approved.

----------


## sharpstick777

> Any real world users of this lens getting feedback as yet?  I know it's still hot off the presses...but wondering if any patient data has started to come in yet?


Good feedback so far... but like the Surmount it must be fit on center and include near mono-pd for best results.  Its my favorite driving lens..

----------


## jefe

> I spoke with Mike at DEL, they should be available soon.


Too bad they only use their standard Claris AR -- not the Claris Plus.

----------


## Uilleann

> Good feedback so far... but like the Surmount it must be fit on center and include near mono-pd for best results.  Its my favorite driving lens..


Good to note, thanks.  I got a call from Mike about a week back, and he said DEL has the design now.  Same pricing as the Surmount is my understanding based on what he told me.  Haven't heard anything about A/R choices though.

----------


## Paul Smith LDO

> Too bad they only use their standard Claris AR -- not the Claris Plus.


I'd call them on that, I was told that the Claris Plus or ClarisHD replaced the standard Claris some time back.

----------


## Paul Smith LDO

> Good to note, thanks.  I got a call from Mike about a week back, and he said DEL has the design now.  Same pricing as the Surmount is my understanding based on what he told me.  Haven't heard anything about A/R choices though.


At this time the only AR choice is the ClarisHD.

----------


## ak47

We can also specify monocular inset with Nikon SeeMax.  

Anyone know of any other progressives (freeform or traditional mold) where we can specify a different inset OD vs OS ?

----------


## obiwan

Mystyle V+ I think you can specify different insets R and L

----------


## sharpstick777

> Mystyle V+ I think you can specify different insets R and L


I could not verify that on any of the Hoya websites around the world...

----------


## Danna

Any one knows best AR coating for Seiko Superior and is there any blue light cutting off coating available?

----------


## ak47

The "new" "Seiko Super Resistant" AR appears to be very, very good so far.  Its being done at Hoya facility, me thinks it is basically EX3.  highly recommended

----------


## Uilleann

Any more feedback on this lens a few months in here?  Looking at ordering a pair for myself perhaps.  Just curious to learn a bit more based on patient comments so far.

----------


## Fezz

> Any more feedback on this lens a few months in here?  Looking at ordering a pair for myself perhaps.  Just curious to learn a bit more based on patient comments so far.


For cripes sake Man........I didn't think that you were old enough to drink, let alone need a progressive!

You are getting old buddy..................getting old!

----------


## sharpstick777

> Any more feedback on this lens a few months in here?  Looking at ordering a pair for myself perhaps.  Just curious to learn a bit more based on patient comments so far.


Great success here, the only issue is really the marketing.  Don't sell the Far to high add powers, unless they have a near option (computer lens, Surmount Progressive) but that goes with any distance emphasized lens.  Very relaxing, I feel the difference at the end of the day.

----------


## Uilleann

> For cripes sake Man........I didn't think that you were old enough to drink, let alone need a progressive!
> 
> You are getting old buddy..................getting old!


   ;)
I've been dancing the PAL waltz for like four years now Mate.  Where've you been?!  Now pass my Postum!  ;)

----------


## Uilleann

One last question (I think...) based on the different designs (far, balanced, near) from having used other lenses that claimed this same sort of custom 'weighting' based on a pt's individual vision needs.  I was left less than impressed with any of them.  Do any of you good souls have direct experience fitting the different designs with success, and if so can you offer your own anecdotal evidence of which type of designs are giving you the most success with patient type A, B C, etc?

Tanks!

----------


## ak47

How does the corridor of the Superior Near compare to the Surmount?

----------


## bowtieman

Would you take the near PD and add how many mm to have the distance PD...?

----------


## bowtieman

Would you take the near PD and add how many mm to have the distance PD...? Or just order the lenses using the near PD... Years ago I took the near PD and added 2.5 mm ... to come up with the distance PD .. had great success since almost all non-adapts complain about reading alinement...

----------


## jefe

I'm wearing the distance priority version right now.  It's the most comfortable PAL I've ever worn.

----------


## Tallboy

> I'm wearing the distance priority version right now.  It's the most comfortable PAL I've ever worn.


Whats your add and distancr RX if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## jefe

-4.50 ish OU w/2.00 Add

----------


## Robert Martellaro

> Would you take the near PD and add how many mm to have the distance PD...? Or just order the lenses using the near PD... Years ago I took the near PD and added 2.5 mm ... to come up with the distance PD .. had great success since almost all non-adapts complain about reading alinement...



Hello bowtieman,

A standard of 2.5mm not accurate enough in most cases.

2.5mm might be the difference if the distance power on the horizontal meridian is close to zero, the PD is average (63), and the work distance is 35cm (14"), or the PD is very wide (>70mm) at a standard distance of 40cm. Moreover, any significant power on the horizontal will increase or decrease the convergence, requiring less inset for minus power, and more inset for plus powers. 

The only way to get this right is to measure monocular distance PDs.

Here's a short cut for calculating insets due to work distance only.

_If stop distance equals 27mm, the near multiplier for a work distance of... 

__40cm is .937_
_35cm is .928_
_30cm is .925_
_25cm is .903_
_20cm is .881
_
The formula is

NPD = DPD - DPD/1 + W(1/s - f/1000)

W is work distance in mm 
s is the stop distance (average 27mm)
F is the focal power

I believe the common 2.5mm inset recommendation on PALs came from the very early Varilux lens designs where the typical work distance was considered to be 35cm.

Hope this helps,

Robert Martellaro

----------


## davidhunternyc

Has anyone compared the Seiko Superior Lens to the Shamir Autograph lll? How are they similar and how are they different? Is one lens truly better than the other? Thanks.

----------


## ak47

I've used both and certainly get more "WOW" from the superior.....but the turn time tends time but much, much longer than Auto III

----------

