# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Four year degree program

## rbaker

I would like to respond to a couple of recent threads that brought up the subject of a four year degree program for Opticians. I graduated from a two year program back in 1969. I have subsequently earned a BS in Computer Science and an MBA in management. I am a proponent of continuing lifelong formal learning. That being said, I have considerable doubts that a four year degree program would improve the professional status or earnings of the dispensing optician. Here are a number of discussion points for your consideration: 
Is opticianry a profession or a craft?How long does it take to teach the required body on knowledge in an academic environment?Who regulates and determines performance standards us on a national level?Should academic and performance standards be required to practice opticianry?Should all of this discussion be dropped and a free market prevail?Today, fewer that 10% ( my educated guess ) of the people performing the duties of opticians have a formal education of any duration, much less two years. Perhaps the first goal should be to bring the great mass of unwashed up to some minimum standard of practice. We did seem to be taking some baby steps in this direction in the mid sixties. However, these efforts suffered a reversal to the point where many feel that todays ABO is a joke  certainly not a high standard that we can be proud of. 


We have no strong organization that is capable of effecting educational or performance standards across the fruited plain much less influencing legislation favorable to opticianry on the national level. At present, we have no uniform standards for the practice opticianry in the USA. Some states regulate it while other states adopt a laissez-faire attitude and there is really not that much difference in wages or performance standards between the states. 


Where will future leadership come from? Should we even bother? 

Dick Baker
www.aerovisiontech.com

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## wmcdonald

...actually are utilized to teach a different level of thought. A person who achieves a Bachelor's Degree will earn (on average) 1 million more over a lifetime than those with high school diplomas. Not because we teach them to dispense or fit contact lenses better than anyone else, but because we teach them higher-level thinking skills. They learn more than technical subjects, and include things like management, critical thinking, communication, the sciences, and a number of other things not taught in most 2-year degree programs. They "round out" the individual and prepare them for more than just providing a technical service. Is Opticianry a profession? I really do not know any more, but I am one who approaches it that way. I want us to be more than we currently are. I hope we can achieve that goal, and I am convinced that through education we can. As to regulation; it is typically done on a state level, not a national one. I think sometime we get too caught up in the state issue. My state is better than your state...........it really does not matter. What does is education and training. Our main problem is we lack common ground. In most professions there is a defined sphere of knowledge one must attain prior to entry into a profession. In Opticianry, that training and education piece varys widely across the country. We must develop some standard of education and training that will prepare us all similarly to achieve any positive development. The free market should not be relied on to produce competent practitioners. Only through education can we advance, and provide the public with excellent Opticians. Back to the earning potential........one does not need a degree to be in most businesses, but the MBA is 25% of all graduate degrees. Education is a good value. For Opticians it should be a requirement.

Warren

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## Jason Carruthers

Dick and Warren:

I don't agree with a 4 year program for opticianry.  Since there is not enough theory to fill 4 years, you are advocating the incorporation of business administration and communications studies.  That is the educational equivalent of a "Bic Mac combo."  You can't just group studies together to create a degree program.

Academic opticianry is not a business discipline.  It is also not a profession in the usual sense.  A lawyer or a physician is a professional because of the 'higher level thinking' and judgment necessary to practice it.  Opticianry is more of a skilled trade.  Nevertheless, I still think opticianry should be regulated in the same way an electrician must be licensed and regulated.

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## Darryl Meister

> Since there is not enough theory to fill 4 years


Warren might be referring to a traditional BA/BS degree with opticianry as a major. This would typically require no more than 50 to 60 credit-hours in ophthalmic science, which you could easily fill if you included lens fabrication and the basics of ocular refraction. (Optometry programs have to fill twice that.) As I mentioned in another thread, there is actually a four-year BLA program in Kansas City for ophthalmic medical technologists. I think the biggest issue though would be the ratio of earning potential to college years, compared to other four-year disciplines.

Best regards,
Darryl

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## Jason Carruthers

I think where we all agree is that we want opticianry to live long and prosper.  My best belief is,

#1. Opticianry will NEVER give automatic financial success.  Unlike some other professions where even the least qualified make a lot of money.  Opticians should think of themselves as in the same category as hair stylists.  The worst will make minimum wage.  The best can make a lot.

#2. Opticianry's best chance at survival is to focus on the extreme fashion side of the business.  This would differentiate opticianry from optometry and offer insurance against commoditization.

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## wmcdonald

....is required of Opticians, at least those that are successful. An academic degree usually requires a liberal arts component. For example, a CPA does not take all their classes in accounting. English, Math, Science, etc. are all a part and parcel of the degree requirements. "Academic" Opticianry is typically an Associate Degree today, and the coursework is largely ophthalmic science; the job skills necessary to perform the tasks required of an Optician. But the successful Optician learns (somehow) to communicate and function in the business world. They attempt to trouble-shoot visual problems experinced by patients, although not to the level many think. Most contemporary Opticians have focused too much on the ""fashion" side of the industry and could not find the power of a lens in a given meridian if their life depended on it. how can we truly analyze an Rx if we don't understand optics? We have become folks who are "trained" versus someone who is truly "educated". There is a distinct difference. Opticians need to re-think the direction we take and look more to education to meet our goals. Optometry has done that are are very successful today because of it, and we should model ourselves after them.

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## ziggy

One way to get a four year degree is to combine it with management, marketing, or design. The biggest issue is getting 27 states to *see* the need for any education requirments. Untill that happens, even a two year degree is a waste.:angry:

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## wmcdonald

I must respectfully disagree. Most states do not require a license to sell shoes or cars, but a business degree can be very helpful. Those with a degree are much more successful on average than those without one. Education cannot be measured just in licensed states, and can prove invaluable to anyone. I encourage you to re-think your thesis here, I would be pleased to send you links to hundreds of studies across the country who may be better equipped to change your mind, or you can simply do a google search on the value of education.

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## Lee Prewitt

I agree with Warren for the most part on this.  I think a 4 year degree can be very helpful for new opticians coming out.  Jason: You have the benefit of many years of experience and I'm sure a few very hard lessons learned in the field.  Now imagine a new optician who has a very solid background in not only optical theory and the skills associated with that but also a great business or marketing background as well.  Would you not likely want to hire someone with those skills?  You have talked about franchising your concept in other threads.  You want those to be successful, right?


Opticians will never be like electricians.  The reason is that electricians have very strict enforcement of the requirements.  You must enter an apprenticeship and work towards your  license otherwise you don't work.  Opticians on the other hand...well we know that answer don't we?  I would love a 4 year degree opportunity.  I have a 2 year and I am proud of it.  Try working in a corporate setting without a 4 year.

My rant and 2 cents.

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## Jason Carruthers

> I want us to be more than we currently are. I hope we can achieve that goal, and I am convinced that through education we can.
> 
> ...Optometry has done that are are very successful today because of it, and we should model ourselves after them.


Most opticians think the same way you do. Who doesn't want status and esteem? But its a huge mistake to try to emulate optometry. It's already being done too much. That's why the public confuses the two professions. It's nice that you want opticians to be 'more', but it won't help the profession as much as being 'different' from optometrists. The best way to do that is to exploit optometry's weaknesses, not try to beat them at their strengths.


P.S.  If optometry and opticianry both required a 4 year degree, would you really choose opticianry?

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## 35oldguy

Today,what are the requirements to be an optometrist?How do those reguirements differ for say 20 years ago?






> Most opticians think the same way you do. Who doesn't want status and esteem? But its a huge mistake to try to emulate optometry. It's already being done too much. That's why the public confuses the two professions. It's nice that you want opticians to be 'more', but it won't help the profession as much as being 'different' from optometrists. The best way to do that is to exploit optometry's weaknesses, not try to beat them at their strengths.
> 
> 
> P.S. If optometry and opticianry both required a 4 year degree, would you really choose opticianry?

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## 35oldguy

I am a old optician. I have a BA degree and a A.S. in Health optics. Every person should have a good education regardless of what specialty they want.






> I agree with Warren for the most part on this. I think a 4 year degree can be very helpful for new opticians coming out. Jason: You have the benefit of many years of experience and I'm sure a few very hard lessons learned in the field. Now imagine a new optician who has a very solid background in not only optical theory and the skills associated with that but also a great business or marketing background as well. Would you not likely want to hire someone with those skills? You have talked about franchising your concept in other threads. You want those to be successful, right?
> 
> 
> Opticians will never be like electricians. The reason is that electricians have very strict enforcement of the requirements. You must enter an apprenticeship and work towards your license otherwise you don't work. Opticians on the other hand...well we know that answer don't we? I would love a 4 year degree opportunity. I have a 2 year and I am proud of it. Try working in a corporate setting without a 4 year.
> 
> My rant and 2 cents.

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## Chris Ryser

> *That being said, I have considerable doubts that a four year degree program would improve the professional status or earnings of the dispensing optician.* 
> Dick Baker
> www.aerovisiontech.com


In Europe opticians actually do learn for 4 years these days. When I did my optics it was 3 years and then increased. I still think that the European system is far superior to the ones on this continent. In order to manage an optical store you even need a masters degree.

Most decent professions do require proper training and as proof they are handed a diploma as proof of competence.

*Just watch the Luxottica owned optical retail outlets. European owned chain stores situated in Europe employ highly qualified personal with all the degrees needed and more. They are also very successful. One chain in Germany controls 40% of the German market. Some conversion to equalize Luxottica stores to the european system could just about be in the coming and then goodby independent retailers that do not have the diplomas hanging on their walls. The large chains do have the funds to advertise the facts that, (in case it would happen), their stores are being staffed with highly qualified employees.*

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## drk

> Today,what are the requirements to be an optometrist?How do those reguirements differ for say 20 years ago?


4 yrs. undergrad, 4 yrs. Opt. College.  Residencies becoming more common.  Same thing 20 yrs ago.  Now, 35-40 yrs ago, it was a 6-yr program.

I'm an outsider on this topic.  I do think that opticianry has different levels.  A dispensing optician would not necessarily need the full college education to succeed.  A 2-yr intense program would be sufficient, probably.  But master opticans would definitely need another 1-2 yrs.  Master opticians would be the lens designers, lab owners and managers, i.e., those that have to know all that there is.  Math and physics (optics) are required, and that's pretty serious stuff.

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## drk

> In Europe opticians actually do learn for 4 years these days. When I did my optics it was 3 years and then increased. I still think that the European system is far superior to the ones on this continent. In order to manage an optical store you even need a masters degree.
> 
> Most decent professions do require proper training and as proof they are handed a diploma as proof of competence.
> 
> *Just watch the Luxottica owned optical retail outlets. European owned chain stores situated in Europe employ highly qualified personal with all the degrees needed and more. They are also very successful. One chain in Germany controls 40% of the German market. Some conversion to equalize Luxottica stores to the european system could just about be in the coming and then goodby independent retailers that do not have the diplomas hanging on their walls. The large chains do have the funds to advertise the facts that, (in case it would happen), their stores are being staffed with highly qualified employees.*


Yeah, and they probably get paid a "pretty deutschmark", too. In the US/Canada, maybe not!

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## 35oldguy

Funny. My uncle got only a 4th grade education. He was in construction in the 40's and 50's in California. Self-made man he was. Made lots of money. Putting restricitions on different occupations does say what the successes of failures that person will have throughout the carreer of that individual.

Still an education is very beneficial. Some folks just have lots of brains and some others know what just plain hard work is! You do not always get something for nothing!




> 4 yrs. undergrad, 4 yrs. Opt. College. Residencies becoming more common. Same thing 20 yrs ago. Now, 35-40 yrs ago, it was a 6-yr program.
> 
> I'm an outsider on this topic. I do think that opticianry has different levels. A dispensing optician would not necessarily need the full college education to succeed. A 2-yr intense program would be sufficient, probably. But master opticans would definitely need another 1-2 yrs. Master opticians would be the lens designers, lab owners and managers, i.e., those that have to know all that there is. Math and physics (optics) are required, and that's pretty serious stuff.

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## Darryl Meister

Just a couple of points:

1. In all fairness, and to further extend Warren's point, a 2-year AAS degree in opticianry will get you a job as an optician. But a 4-year BA degree in opticianry would get you any job that is looking for someone with a "college degree." Look through a typical Classifieds section. While many employers are obviously looking for a degree in a particular discipline, just as many don't care about the specific degree -- they just want to know that you are a college-educated adult. Consequently, I think it would open more doors for you.

2. That said, unfortunately, college degree programs in opticianry have generally not fared well. Many of the two-year programs are struggling, many have already folded. This reflects my belief that we're seeing more and more non-_career_ opticians entering the field. Most practicing opticians today have had virtually no preparation in ophthalmic technology before working in the field, and their employers very rarely require it. This undermines the traditional "college" paradigm, which generally requires completing your education _before_ pursuing your career. Given this low demand, you are unlikely to see many four-year programs.

Best regards,
Darryl

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## wmcdonald

A 4-year degree is a goal, however. DRK is correct in his assertion that there are levels. We need to look at it that way, and I have said so many times before. I see a place for Opticians to serve in a mid-level practice role much like Nurse Practiitioners or PAs. It can happen if we recognize education for its intrinsic value and move ahead. We will not gain higher income or status overnight....it will be slow, but it will happen eventually if we just try. As you indicate, a degree is beneficial. Unfortunately, some in Opticianry seem to continue to fight the concept. People come now to find a job, not a profession. Someone said the chains would not allow us to move ahead.....I don't blame them, and quite frankly I wasn't intending to ask. They want to minimize payroll as much as any businessperson, but the same chains hire Pharmacists at 90k a year. They saw the need to expand education and move ahead, and we can to....but an education is a prerequisite.

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## Roy R. Ferguson

This is an extremely interesting and timely topic.  As most of you know, Dr. McDonald and I have been outspoken advocates of formal education for opticians.  With that said, you also know the personal and professional price we have both paid for that position.  When the concept of a formal educational component for the apprentice optician was suggested in this state, the Tennessee Dispensing Opticians Association fought the idea through every venue and at every juncture.  When the idea went down in flames and the OAA adopted the concept of minimum educational standards based on the Tennessee model, this state society was the only one to oppose it on a national level.  When defending their opposition to education one of the state leaders told me all youre trying to do is keep a lot of good people out of opticianry.  Is the Tennessee society somehow different?  Not really.  They just lacked finesse in their defense of ignorance.

Is it possible for an optician to learn all their job skills by hanging out at the workplace for a few years?  It certainly is!  Its also possible for nurses, physical therapists, dentists, and podiatrists to do the same since you certainly dont need to go to college to empty a bedpan, bend an arm, pull a tooth, or fit an insole.  What makes opticianry unique is that it is the only health related area that I can think of that has consistently rejected the educational model and demanded that their scope of practice remain firmly rooted in the 1940s model.  Without the ubiquitous college degrees of other fields, we remain relegated to bending frames, taking a PD, arguing over seg height, and polishing the skill necessary to sell the second pair.

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## Lee Prewitt

You are so right.  Take this a step further (actually lower) What allied health position does not require at least a 2 year program? X-ray? Nope. Dental hygenist? Nope. Physical Therapist? Nope again.  Optician? Sure, you are eager/cute/articulate/enter own adjective etc.  I can't believe that TN would fight such a thing.  WA is looking at requiring a 2 year degree to get your license but the time reference is like 10 years down the road!!  Grandfather all existing people in, up the CE standards, and all new people need 2 year degree minimum.  I don't get it.

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## 35oldguy

That is what optometry did a long time ago. Look where they are now!




> You are so right. Take this a step further (actually lower) What allied health position does not require at least a 2 year program? X-ray? Nope. Dental hygenist? Nope. Physical Therapist? Nope again. Optician? Sure, you are eager/cute/articulate/enter own adjective etc. I can't believe that TN would fight such a thing. WA is looking at requiring a 2 year degree to get your license but the time reference is like 10 years down the road!! Grandfather all existing people in, up the CE standards, and all new people need 2 year degree minimum. I don't get it.

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## ken@foothills

The idea of a four year degree seems so unbelievable to me, especially in the state that I live in you can be stocking shelves one day and the optical store manager the next day.  And I have gone into some of the stores to eaves drop on the opticians and I am truly impressed with some of the replies they come up for customer complaints and questions.  It would be nice to see ANY required schooling for opticianary.

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## wmcdonald

I also have heard some excellent sounding comments from Opticians all across the country who consider themselves quite accomplished. But I also see them in CE lectures trying to learn even the simplest optical concepts. I agree Opticians can learn a great deal without a degree, but it simply amazes me to see this continual questioning of the need for education. Do you like those untrained folks doing what it is you do? I certainly don't and want us to be better. What possible problem do you h ave with that concept!!!!!! And by the way, the correct spelling is OPTICIANRY............

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## Jacqui

As I said in another thread, I'm all for a 4 year optician degree. My own degrees are BSIE, BSIT, BSN, will finish my MBA this summer and may finish my MSN in Ophthalmic Nursing.

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## Kim

> I agree with Warren for the most part on this. I think a 4 year degree can be very helpful for new opticians coming out. Jason: You have the benefit of many years of experience and I'm sure a few very hard lessons learned in the field. Now imagine a new optician who has a very solid background in not only optical theory and the skills associated with that but also a great business or marketing background as well. Would you not likely want to hire someone with those skills? You have talked about franchising your concept in other threads. You want those to be successful, right?


It seems obvious that most opticians who take pride in their profession would approve of a 4 year education opportunity, yet the fact remains that today such a program is not available.  How can new opicians who genuinely want opticianry to be their _career_ improve on what education they do have?  I am new to the field, with only about 6 months experience under my belt.  There are no formal education programs in my area, and the optician who was training me recently changed jobs.  How do I improve?  What do I teach myself?  If no formal education is available, how does a new optician advance in their knowledge?

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## wmcdonald

Kim.
Look on the National Federation of Opticianry Schools web site (www.nfos.org). There are numerous online programs. Unfortunately California has very weak requirements to become an Optician, but they do have something, which is more than can be said for many states. The good news is you can study anywhere you call home with these online programs. Also, the National Academy of Opticianry (www.nao.org) offers the Career Progression Program that is a home study course for optical dispensing, and a number of other books and reference materials that offer study opportunities in contact lenses and many other topics. The Northern Albeta Institute of Technology in Canada (www.portal.nait.ca/portal/server.pt) has an outstanding distance learning program that you can take from home as well.The Contact Lens Society of American offers their CLSA University with online educational opportunities, and there are others. Pennsylvania College of Optometry and Nova Southeastern even offer graduate degrees online in Clinical Vision Research and Low Vision if you compleg\te your bachelor's degree. There are many places to learn if you just look, and I encourage you to do so. A well-educated Optician can be very valuable in the right environment. 

Good luck!

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## harry a saake

Back in 1964 when i started working for B&L, the mandate for becoming a lab manager or optician A was four years, as they figured it would take four years to completely learn the lab, and it did. We had terrific people in those labs in those days, people you could ask a question and actually get an answer, plus the one on one training. It worked for me.

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## Bev Heishman

Kim,
Check out the NFOS.org site and you could earn a long distance degree. When I present a seminar, I advocate this as a way to matriculate and become credible. Opticianry, in the office I practice in, requires opticianry to be an art, a science and the ability to balance human personality. It also requires deep analytical ability to satisfy our average age patient whom is 68 and has pathology.

Opticianry is truly a dying art in the US, because opticianry has evolved to a sales only position with no analytical ability due to lack of education and licensing. I truly feel that a majority of people whom call them selves opticians are not and should be classified as frame stylists or sales associates. In no way these individuals should be classified an optician fully without a standard educational and certification level. 

I am very apalled at the attitudes by people calling themselves opticians out here whom have no formal education of any sort or certification ( the minimal level of ability that is strictly voluntary). My daughter attended a very progressive high school in a very small community( there were 100 in her class) . They told every parent, when these kids where in 8th grade and ready to go to high school, that you will change jobs several times in the 21st Century as many will become obselete. You will be required to continue your education through out your life. A BA or BS is not the end and will require additional learning skills to compete in the next 100 years. You can expect to change careers 5 times in your life time due to technological changes. People today have more access to information than ever before and even senior citizens are embrassing it.

Luckily, I completed a program in ophthalmic sciences in the late 70's and have found it to be the best thing I have ever done on the recommendation of a Guild optician. Working full time and going to college was no easy task. It helped me to set future goals. Knowing optical theory, surfacing, and refraction allows me to problem solve at an advanced level and earned the respect of many of the three O's. 

Frankly, I am getting tired of seeing the numbers hype and retail guides that are coming out for MD, OD offices. To understand these businesses and what you are facing requires hands on and learning your market. You need both knowledge and skill to reduce remakes, increase sales and that means the more education you have, the better. You also need less people because 2 at a higher price and knowledge level can work better and problem solve more profiently than 4 at lower wagews. Remember though, you get what you pay for. Don't expect a silk purse out of sow's ear.

Be all that you can be and never stop learning!

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## Jacqui

> Be all that you can be and never stop learning!


I agree, never stop

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## Jason Carruthers

> I truly feel that a majority of people whom call them selves opticians are not and should be classified as frame stylists or sales associates. In no way these individuals should be classified an optician fully without a standard educational and certification level. 
> 
> I am very apalled at the attitudes by people calling themselves opticians out here whom have no formal education of any sort or certification


I agree it's unfortunate.  In Canada, the title "optician" is restricted by law to those who are licensed.  In the same way that a person could not claim to be a physician, you can't claim to be an optician unless you are.  The U.S. should adopt the same standard.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Yeah, and they probably get paid a "pretty deutschmark", too. In the US/Canada, maybe not!*


drk.........you are out of touch

There is just about swiss francs and english pounds left in Europe................most of the other countries that have joined the European Union now work with EURO's (which accidentally is about 20% higher than the US Dollar)

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## 35oldguy

You are young. In your state join your optical society. Ask them what you can do to help. If you really want to become a professional optician it just takes people working for a common goal with a goal in mind. But as with many occupations too many people want someone else to do it for them.

" President Kennedy said so many years ago, "Ask what you can do for your country, not what your country can do for you!"





> It seems obvious that most opticians who take pride in their profession would approve of a 4 year education opportunity, yet the fact remains that today such a program is not available. How can new opicians who genuinely want opticianry to be their _career_ improve on what education they do have? I am new to the field, with only about 6 months experience under my belt. There are no formal education programs in my area, and the optician who was training me recently changed jobs. How do I improve? What do I teach myself? If no formal education is available, how does a new optician advance in their knowledge?

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## Ed_Optician

What would it take for one of the COA colleges to offer academic course work suitable for preparation for the ABO/NCLE AC an AAS+ certificate?  Many of us are AAS grads and this could be an additional certificate on top of our degree It could be limited to opticians holding an AAS degree as well

Ed

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## wmcdonald

and do it very well. The COA-accredited colleges offer didactic instruction in all phases of Opticianry and prepare students well to take the certification exams at the advanced level.

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## Ed_Optician

We can go about this by going through te back door.  Keep the 2 year degree for the moment and add two additional academic certificate programs.  The first one would lead to both ABO-AC and NCLC-AC.  The other would do the same for ABO-M and NCLC-M.  By doing this we have created a "graduate" program leaving the basic education as it is for the moment and giving us time to create a full BS program in a 4 year timeframe and allow current opticians to upgrade their education as well

Ed

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## Ed_Optician

I forgot one other thing I would appeal to the ABO/NCLE to permit graduates of these certificate programs totake the exams as soon as they complete the certificate instead of 3 years one renewal cycle after passing the ABO/NCLE

Ed

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## mochagelato

I'm all for requiring education for Opticians. I was trained on the job. I started off as a lab technician in 1989 while attending college. I worked my way up the ladder as a Frame Stylist, Apprentice Optician and finally to Certified Optician. I became certified in 1995. I learned a lot on the job and through continuing education. Although I have a B.S and an A.S. in Biology and Biotechnology, I feel that there is still a whole lot more about Optics I haven't learned yet. I think of myself as a health professional and I believe this field requires some smarts. I don't think of myself as being on the same level as a hair stylist. I'd like to become a Master Optician, teach, and refract in the future. I would also like to be able to converse with an Optometrist or Ophthalmologist about optics and know what I'm talking about. So I have decided to go for the 2 yr on line Opticianry degree program. And I also would like to mention that my customers always ask me where and how I got my training. I say that I have a biology degree, but the general public does not understand how that relates to Opticianry. I get mixed reactions when I say I was trained on the job. They usually perk up when I say I'm board certified. So I think having an Opticianry degree would elevate the Optician in the eyes of the general public.

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## Snitgirl

which 2 year online Optnry Degree?


And congrats on wanting to advance in the field and making this your career vs just a job....  :D

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## mochagelato

You go girl!

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## mochagelato

I'm referring to the Hillsborough Community College in Florida. I'm choosing this program because they offer refractometry courses. There are some other schools that have this program. You can find them at www.nfos.org.

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## Ian Jordan

speaking from a UK perspective 

What surprises me is the knowledge levels that are necessary to dispense specialist lenses competently and handle potential problems with Rx, visual optics, eye movement, aberrations and distortions, filters, ambient lighting, disease etc. Contact lens fitting and usage, LVAs, prosthetics, sensory integration, praxis, life style are all relevant. Medical conditions may be a factor. 

Most new UK opticians will have a degree + further training (continuing education is compulsary), pity help the person who goes to the salesman with little or no training. I am surprised that the optometrists / ophthalmologists are happy to let their prescriptions be dispensed by those without training. (cynically it may make them more fees in trying to sort out incompetency).

There is more than sufficient theory for a four year course.
Good luck in achieving change

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## Chris Ryser

> *speaking from a UK perspective* 
> 
> *There is more than sufficient theory for a four year course.*
> *Good luck in achieving change*


Ian, I am all with you and you put it very neatly on the table.

However US optics will never achieve it. There will never be an accord throughout the country. My hat off to the ones that are doing the work and wish them nothing less than success.. 

A barber who cuts your hair will need a license in just about every corner of the US.

In order to be licensed you have to convince local, state and federal authorities to create the laws to require the education before you can get licensed in a way it is done in most countries.

You need a lot of lobbying and that is politics. When it comes to politics it also gets into the money that has to come from somewhere. In the optical trade the larger corporations are out to dominate the trade and will not be helpfull to the cause which would slow down their progress.

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## 35oldguy

Well said.....In smaller countries perhaps it is easier to have the government make sure the professions are accredited! 




> Ian, I am all with you and you put it very neatly on the table.
> 
> However US optics will never achieve it. There will never be an accord throughout the country. My hat off to the ones that are doing the work and wish them nothing less than success.. 
> 
> A barber who cuts your hair will need a license in just about every corner of the US.
> 
> In order to be licensed you have to convince local, state and federal authorities to create the laws to require the education before you can get licensed in a way it is done in most countries.
> 
> You need a lot of lobbying and that is politics. When it comes to politics it also gets into the money that has to come from somewhere. In the optical trade the larger corporations are out to dominate the trade and will not be helpfull to the cause which would slow down their progress.

----------


## 35oldguy

I have a question... If you get a two or four year degree in opticianry why would it be necessary to get ABO/NCLE. Most opticians only have on the job training and they are the ones that would need a test to make sure they are competent. Depending where you want to hang your shingle you would need just a license. A degree should have more value than just a certificate.






> I forgot one other thing I would appeal to the ABO/NCLE to permit graduates of these certificate programs totake the exams as soon as they complete the certificate instead of 3 years one renewal cycle after passing the ABO/NCLE
> 
> Ed

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## Ed_Optician

Having a degree  from an institution does not give a person the right to practice what they havel earned.  The written examination as in ABO is in many states proof of competant entry level skills in this field.  This exam is the basis for licesure in California and serves as the written exam in a number of other states including NY
My proposal was to offer 2 post AAS programs to opticians who wish to enhance their skills and be recognized for it academically as well.  I was suggesting these certificates in lieu of a Masters level and Phd level programs that we do not have because we do not offer a BS level program to begin with.
I am just trying to offer ways of raising the bar in our profession without raising too many eyebrows among te ODs and Mds

Ed

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## 35oldguy

Ed

I have a four degree in political science as a major. I have a 2 year degree in Health Optics. I took the ABO and passed.

I think to upgrade opticianry we need to stop handing out ABO/Ncle certificates to just anyone that wants to take a test that gives them the credentials to practice as an optician.

The OD's were and I do not remember when but they were once opticians. They got the education in place grandfathered all the so called refractionists in and they became the modern day OD.

It is too bad we have to ask permission from OD's and MD's to try to further our education! It would be in their best benefit to get us educated.





> Having a degree from an institution does not give a person the right to practice what they havel earned. The written examination as in ABO is in many states proof of competant entry level skills in this field. This exam is the basis for licesure in California and serves as the written exam in a number of other states including NY
> My proposal was to offer 2 post AAS programs to opticians who wish to enhance their skills and be recognized for it academically as well. I was suggesting these certificates in lieu of a Masters level and Phd level programs that we do not have because we do not offer a BS level program to begin with.
> I am just trying to offer ways of raising the bar in our profession without raising too many eyebrows among te ODs and Mds
> 
> Ed

----------


## Ed_Optician

It would be in the best interest of consumers if all opticians were required to have an AAS in order to get certified
It would be in the best interest of the ODs and MDs to have better educated opticians
It would be in the best interest of al opticians to have mandatory education.  

Currently opticians dont want to do anything more than they now do.  You should have heard NY opticians scream when 18 hours of NY approved CEs were required every 3 years.  NY opticians still want to have an apprenticeship option rather than formal education not as good as even the distance learning programs

ODs and MDs dont want educated opticians....they cost too much

Large chain stores   Pearle, Cole National, Lenscrafters really do not want educated opticians and strong licenses because again costs will go up.  Some years ago there was an organization formed by Pearle Cole and Lenscrafters supposedly an opticians and optometrists organization but instead was a PAC designed to take the teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them and to lobby other states against licensing opticians.  I think the organization was known as NAOO National Association of opticians and optometrists

If we do not take care of ourselves, we wont be here in a few years

Ed

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## Darryl Meister

I think the easiest way to encourage education (since we won't be legislating it anytime soon) would be to incease the level of difficulty of the ABO exam. By bringing it back up to standards, so that it truly serves as the measure of competency it claims to be, prospective exam candidates will actually _need_ education to earn it -- not just a little review book of questions and answers. The board of directors of the ABO undoubtedly comprises many individuals who have been involved with advancing opticianry for years... So why isn't it advancing opticianry?

And I have to agree with the New Yorkers regarding continuing education. Why would an ABO _renewal_ require any more education than it took to earn the actual _certification_ in the first place? Most people could learn to pass the current version of the exam, itself, with less than 18 hours of training. Is the motivation really continued _education_ or the _business_ of continued education?

Best regards,
Darryl

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## wmcdonald

Ed,
NY is a state in which 95% of Opticians go through an academic program. It is one of the best states. I wish others were as accomplished and demanding. I just completed a study that indicates that Opticians want to continue with apprenticeship, but add a formal educational compnent to assure theoretical competence (at least at the basic level). The study population was very much in favor of an increase in the scope of practice of Opticians, but with a concurrent upgrading in the level of education. It is not the at-large population of Opticians that are against education, but a few in the vocal minoroty, the chains and some (not all) of the ODs. We must continue to fight for the betterment of Opticianry to make it happen.

Warren

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## Ed_Optician

Darryl
New York revised its licensing requirements in the late 80s  89 I think  ABO replaced the state written exam with the state administering the practical only.  The law never stated that you needed to maintain your ABO certification to retain your state license.  Some years later 1995 or so NY implemented mandatory CEs not ABO approved CE but NY approved primarily technical in nature. The old time opticians were not enthralled wiht the idea of having to take courses to retain their license.  Two gentlemen I worked for *****ed and moaned loudly about it.  They only had to go 1/2 mile from their office to one of the schools in NYCto get their CEs 6 hours in one day at very reasonable cost.  18 hours in 3 years is not unreasonable to keep current
Those of us in ABO only states 12 CEs in 3 years of 21 CEs in 3 for dual certified are not doing badly especially because most of ours can be done by mail or on line at $0 cost or very low cost to us.  If I do one CE per month I am not working very hard to maintain my license/certification

Ed

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## Darryl Meister

But really my point is that you are ultimately required to put more effort into _maintaining_ your certification than it took to _earn_ the certification in the first place. The ABO certification is not a vehicle for requiring continuing education; continuing education is primarily a component of certification renewal to ensure that opticians are keeping their skills and product knowledge current. I am asserting that it is basically putting "the cart before the horse" to make requirements for maintaining a certification more stringent than the requirements for obtaining it in the first place. Is the ABO certification a demonstration of competency, or is it a means of eventually _learning_ to be competent after years of additional continuing education?

Best regards,
Darryl

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## 35oldguy

Ed: I hope everyone reads your post. You do not get something for no work.
Education is necessary buy few people do not realize what may happen if they continue the status Quo.

The opticianry program at Ferris State College in Michigan they discontinued. Why? They have a optometry program. How many more will close?

The schools that exist today may not be around much longer "due to lack of interest". 

LenscraFTERS should change their name. They do not want crafters only salespeople!





> It would be in the best interest of consumers if all opticians were required to have an AAS in order to get certified
> It would be in the best interest of the ODs and MDs to have better educated opticians
> It would be in the best interest of al opticians to have mandatory education. 
> 
> Currently opticians dont want to do anything more than they now do. You should have heard NY opticians scream when 18 hours of NY approved CEs were required every 3 years. NY opticians still want to have an apprenticeship option rather than formal education not as good as even the distance learning programs
> 
> ODs and MDs dont want educated opticians....they cost too much
> 
> Large chain stores Pearle, Cole National, Lenscrafters really do not want educated opticians and strong licenses because again costs will go up. Some years ago there was an organization formed by Pearle Cole and Lenscrafters supposedly an opticians and optometrists organization but instead was a PAC designed to take the teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them and to lobby other states against licensing opticians. I think the organization was known as NAOO National Association of opticians and optometrists
> ...

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## Chris Ryser

> * Most people could learn to pass the current version of the exam, itself, with less than 18 hours of training. Is the motivation really continued education or the business of continued education*? 
> Best regards,
> Darryl


Darryl you are an optical wizard..............very similar to Dr. Wilkinson  in the UK. You are theoretical optical specialist's by nature and of course learning.

An optician needs a good practical training, which many do not have, besides a good minimum of  theory. Combined together it takes 3 - 4 years mix them any way you want.

But, it takes state or even better federal regulation to make this a successfull profession where somedy is an optician in New York and can be one in San Francisco.

Contiuned education is just updating and mostly done by manufacturers in their own interest.

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## Laurie

You are singing our song...

Thanks.

: )

We need to step up and admit that it is time to mandate formal education (in a college) for America's future opticians.

There is no valid argument against education...now we need to get everyone to jump on the band wagon.

Our two-year degree program is thriving...the Internet portion is really taking off, and it is great fun to be a part of it.

I am very optimistic about our professional future, based on our trend of enrollment and success at Hillsborough Community College (Tampa, FL).  There is always room for improvement, however, we are off to a great start.

Tell a friend!

: )

Laurie

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## 35oldguy

Glad to see that the message is getting around!






> You are singing our song...
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> : )
> 
> We need to step up and admit that it is time to mandate formal education (in a college) for America's future opticians.
> 
> There is no valid argument against education...now we need to get everyone to jump on the band wagon.
> ...

----------


## Ed_Optician

Every college of optometry would benefit by having an affiliated school of opticianry.  Some of the instructors would be able to teach in both programs and the public would benefit from both the student ODs and student opticians in their clinics.  In fact when I  was a student, NYCTC had an instructor from SUNY college of optometry teach anatomy and physiology of the eye.  It was a most enlightening experience.  I learned more about anatomy in that one semester than I will ever need as an optician.  
We need to look back at the schools that  we lost Canyada College in Redwood City CA, Ferris State in Michigan and Mater Dei in NY.  But we need to say we want education and need it despite what the corporate giants and the OD and MD lobbies think.  
We can ask all opticians to get an AAS degree or ask the ABO to require at least some colege level work as a pre requisite to begin with and gradualy improve ourprofession.  NJ has a 2 tier educational system I think 32 credits in ophthalmic science or a 68? credit AAS degree other states encourage education but may not require it as they offer an alternative apprenticeship program.  I am looing forward to the day when every optician is much more than a "temple bender"

Ed

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## wmcdonald

We unfortunately have lost the schools Ed mentions, but all is not lost. There are many schools doing fine and growing, and in fact new programs as well. University of Arkansas Mountain Home has a new program that is Internet-based, as does Vermont and Hawaii. We lose a few and gain a few. The whole point is this; moving from state to state as Chris has mentioned will be easy wheh we have some common ground. If an Optician in NC and an Optician in California are similarly trained it will be easier to transport a license. Then legislation can come, much like Optometry is doing currently. Education is the key.

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## HarryChiling

I think education is definately key in the progress of our proffesion, but do not discount the opticians that have learned on the job.  I am one who has learned on the job and I would put my knowledge of opticianry up against most in the industry.  I make more money selling glasses than when I was fabricating.  I was not hired for my knowledge I was hired because I could sell ice water to an eskimo.  What sometimes my boss takes for granted is that I can sell just about any of our products because of my knowledge of the product.  Yes education is great and all, but:

1.) College is getting more and more expensive.

2.) It does not ensure that you are getting a well educated person. (My old room mate graduated with a 3.5 GPA by taking nothing but easy classes.  She also thought Vermont was a country in the middle of Canada.)

I would be more inclined for a national test (not the ABO it's too easy) that would be used to judge the competency and to grant licensure.  I think the road to increasing our respect as a proffesion is to lobby harder like the OD's and OMD's do.

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## 35oldguy

Ed

>I do not consider myself as a temple bender! Too me those people are the ones that have no knowledge and probably worked at Burger King the week before.

Every office weather it be OD,MD, or Optican owned should put all their effort behind our profession. I do not know how many millions of people need glasses in the world but I think that there is enough to go around for everyone to make a decent living. Let us stop being so greedy!




> Every college of optometry would benefit by having an affiliated school of opticianry. Some of the instructors would be able to teach in both programs and the public would benefit from both the student ODs and student opticians in their clinics. In fact when I was a student, NYCTC had an instructor from SUNY college of optometry teach anatomy and physiology of the eye. It was a most enlightening experience. I learned more about anatomy in that one semester than I will ever need as an optician. 
> We need to look back at the schools that we lost Canyada College in Redwood City CA, Ferris State in Michigan and Mater Dei in NY. But we need to say we want education and need it despite what the corporate giants and the OD and MD lobbies think. 
> We can ask all opticians to get an AAS degree or ask the ABO to require at least some colege level work as a pre requisite to begin with and gradualy improve ourprofession. NJ has a 2 tier educational system I think 32 credits in ophthalmic science or a 68? credit AAS degree other states encourage education but may not require it as they offer an alternative apprenticeship program. I am looing forward to the day when every optician is much more than a "temple bender"
> 
> Ed

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## Ed_Optician

I am not calling you a temple bender.  I am sure that you are competant at what you do.  To me a temple bender is someone who knows just enough to pass the ABO and has little interest in the profession other than to fill time and colect a paycheck.  A true optician is always learning and trying to improve their skills and is always looking for a way to make their customer/patient more comfortable with their optical goods.
I am a proponent of formal education in this field.  I came from a state where formal education was the  way to get licensed on the first attempt.  I am still in favor of formal education in all states.  As you may have read in my past posts I am also in favor of advanced level recognition of achievement as in post AAS certificates and advanced level certification from ABO/NCLE which we have 
In terms of licensure I find it hard to believe that we cannot have any reciprocity between states regarding licensure.  There are 3 states in close proximity of each other.  NJ does not permit opticians to fit contact lenses.  NY next state over permits fitting of CLs by an Ophthalmic dispenser with a secondary endorsement on their license.  One state over in CT every optician is a licensed CL fitter.  All of this within one hours travel on I-95

Ed

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## wmcdonald

We are talking about the future for this profession. Your individual knowledge is superior I am sure, but we are not talking about you. That kind of thinking is what is holding us back! Please do not take the education issue as a personal affront, because some of the best Opticians I know were apprentice-trained. Darrell Meister is a brilliant young man. Richard Hamilton, one of my early mentors was as assistant professor at Duke Eye Center and was apprentice-trained and only had a high school diploma. We must have some basic level of education to survive in today's market. Apprenticeship alone is simply not viable. The old masters who trained apprentices decades ago are long gone, and what we have today is not getting the job done. 

To the national test idea; it has been discussed for years to no avail. The ABO as we know it is the result. We must consider this issue from several sides; political, social, and economic. The need for advanced education has been proven socially by many and to develop a new test will not do nearly what a degree will do. Politically a degree is a must for us to advance, and economically, those with degrees "generally" - that does not mean you individually- make superior money to those without. As a matter of fact, a BA degree holder will make 1 million more than a high school graduate. Again, there are cases like Bill Gates, but in general terms a degree is what we need, not another well-intentioned test.

----------


## 35oldguy

Exactly... Education is what will bend the ears of the póliticians.






> We are talking about the future for this profession. Your individual knowledge is superior I am sure, but we are not talking about you. That kind of thinking is what is holding us back! Please do not take the education issue as a personal affront, because some of the best Opticians I know were apprentice-trained. Darrell Meister is a brilliant young man. Richard Hamilton, one of my early mentors was as assistant professor at Duke Eye Center and was apprentice-trained and only had a high school diploma. We must have some basic level of education to survive in today's market. Apprenticeship alone is simply not viable. The old masters who trained apprentices decades ago are long gone, and what we have today is not getting the job done. 
> 
> To the national test idea; it has been discussed for years to no avail. The ABO as we know it is the result. We must consider this issue from several sides; political, social, and economic. The need for advanced education has been proven socially by many and to develop a new test will not do nearly what a degree will do. Politically a degree is a must for us to advance, and economically, those with degrees "generally" - that does not mean you individually- make superior money to those without. As a matter of fact, a BA degree holder will make 1 million more than a high school graduate. Again, there are cases like Bill Gates, but in general terms a degree is what we need, not another well-intentioned test.

----------


## HarryChiling

I personaly believe that our educational system as a whole is going down the toilet. I am surrounded by individuals that go to college and learn how to memorize information for tests just to forget it the next day so they can memorize new information for another test. I thirst for knowledge I will not learn something if I have to forget it after some test. I would not want to take additional classes that will only distract me from my learning objectives, just so I can supposedly be a well rounded individual. Our system of education is slowly falling apart, and costing an arm and a leg. For those of you old enough to benefit from a college degree before the costs skyrocketed, and before the classes became dumbed down can cosider yourselves lucky. The information learned in college courses are what should be taught in high schools across the country. I went to one of the best in the coutry and learned calculus and physics. I was trained by idiots who only wanted to know enough to get by and they all have degrees. My boss has a college degree and he apparently was a trainor for Pearle Vision traveling the country and training lab techs. This same person does not know the dynamics behind a mirror coat. I don't think it is the lack of education, it is the lack of motivation, most opticians my brother in law included study enough for a test and then think its over. I absorb every bit of information the industry can spew out even when I know it is biased I take the good and leave the bad, because I will not settle for average. These same individuals are going to go to college get the degrees and then stop learning and after a few years technology and changes in the industry will leave them right where they are today(but making more money). I believe that it is a shamed that there is no reciprocity between states, but that is a legislative issue that needs to be fought with legislation, throwing education at it solves nothing. Had there been a requirement for a college degree to be licensed as an optician I or some of the posters on this site wouldn't be here. Education does not equal a good Optician.

I agree with everyone here that our profession does not get the respect that it deserves, but I don't think it is the lack of education. The great opticians are some of the most educated people I know, and school had nothing to do with it.

Our politicians don't care anything about education, if you don't believe that go to any courthouse, jail, or congressmans office and then go to some schools in the country.  It is the schools with broken windows and no heat.  Education is only a platform for election.

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## jediron1

Ed_Optician
It would be in the best interest of consumers if all opticians were required to have an AAS in order to get certified
It would be in the best interest of the ODs and MDs to have better educated opticians
It would be in the best interest of al opticians to have mandatory education. 

Currently opticians dont want to do anything more than they now do. You should have heard NY opticians scream when 18 hours of NY approved CEs were required every 3 years. NY opticians still want to have an apprenticeship option rather than formal education not as good as even the distance learning programs

ODs and MDs dont want educated opticians....they cost too much

Large chain stores Pearle, Cole National, Lenscrafters really do not want educated opticians and strong licenses because again costs will go up. Some years ago there was an organization formed by Pearle Cole and Lenscrafters supposedly an opticians and optometrists organization but instead was a PAC designed to take the teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them and to lobby other states against licensing opticians. I think the organization was known as NAOO National Association of opticians and optometrists

If we do not take care of ourselves, we wont be here in a few years

Ed

It's always nice to see someone spout off about a state he does not live in, maybe you did and if you had lived in N.Y. and were licensed I would say you were ill informed. One of the reasons and not the only reason that N.Y. Opticians were screaming as you say was because they had no *differentiation for New York licensed before ABO (Mickey Mouse Exam)*
*or after. They were treating them the same, and believe me there is a world of difference from the exam I took to the MICKEY MOUSE ABO!*
*Also at the time they did not know how they were going to administer*
*the CE's or how they would be accountable, all this had to be ironed out*
*before. These are only a couple of reason's we were "screaming"! And your others so called facts are dubious at best. The apprenticeship program has a three year ban where in you must practice for three years under the direction of an Optican or Doctor then you may apply to take the exam or you can go to an approve college. These are not all the reguirements but at least it is not as simple as Ed*
*Optician led us to believe!*

*At least in one point Ed is right that the big three did conspire to keep Opticians in bay by trying to take the "teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them"* 

*And Ed where were you when we had the boot of N.Y. law at our throats and all your fellow compatriots on this board I never heard or saw one of you write N.Y. state condeming them for what they did. We fought the fight and lost don't go around saying we were screaming because of the CE's we were screaming for a lot more then you realize!*

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## jediron1

[QUOTE=HarryChiling]I personaly believe that our educational system as a whole is going down the toilet.  Education does not equal a good Optician.

I quess that about sums it all up. So the next time any one needs open heart 
surgery go to Africa and look up a good witch doctor! Or when your car needs fixing go to the guy with that eighth grade education to work on your 2005 car
with all the computer software to fix it. Where do we get these people, WMC must be on a recruitment detail! UNBELIEVABLE!:hammer: Ya education does not equal a good optician like a surgeon does not equal a good knife! I m getting a headache! I was going to use knife to surgeon but I like it this way! I still have a headache! Give me two, I think Alice said the white one would make her small maybe if I took the tan one it would take away my headache of this thread! But then again they also said Alice would be ten feet tall! Got to get off the Jefferson Airplane trip!

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## Ian Jordan

All education guarantees is minimum standards, not maximum attainment.
One of the best things a degree level training gives is parity of knowledge levels (greater than optometrists in some areas) with the optician an expert on lenses and visual optics. A partnership with optometry can flourish in a similar way to that of a doctor and pharmacist. 
The question is "Is it cost effective and better for the public to have knowledgable opticians with a guaranteed minimum standard of training, and if so what standard should be the minimum?"

Self teaching can be fine if you are motivated and have good support, for many it is not an acceptable option. New ideas may not however perculate into a practice situation unless they are immediately commercial and consequently self training may be inadequate in all but a few cases. 
Change is inevitable, management of the change is vital.

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## Jason Carruthers

A recent classified ad sums it all up:

"National eyeglass retailer seeks to acquire regional chain stores.  Non-licensed states preferred."

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## Ibalz

P.S. If optometry and opticianry both required a 4 year degree, would you really choose opticianry?[/QUOTE]

As someone who is currently going through the motions, I  have to interject...

You can't forget that there happens to be three full years of prerequisites to complete before one can even think about attending Optometry school.  :angry:

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## chip anderson

Gee and I can remember when a year at Cougar High (U of H) was enough.

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## 35oldguy

Everyone has to start from the ground up! I bet you through your experience have gained a lot of knowledge called learning by doing.

Any profession that requires an accredited program is just a base. In the real world you apply what you learned and through the experience that you gain you are able to become better at what you do!!

I wonder how many politicians start out being experts!!





> Gee and I can remember when a year at Cougar High (U of H) was enough.

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## wmcdonald

In an earlier post, a question was asked whether or not one would choose Optometry vs. Opticianry if we required a 4-year degree. I think it could be a stepping stone for Opticians to advance in many ancilary fields. If we don't have a bachelor's degree, then we have little leeway. For example, Optometry requires a bachelor's degree for admission in most of their schools now. Opticians who wanted to move on to Optometry schools would have the entry requirements taken care of in their undergraduate experience. Likewise, Opticians with a bachelor's degree could move on to administration, or other avenues with the right background, which we do not currently have. I suspect most of those who suggest that the need for a degree is not important support the continuance of apprenticeship training. This mode of educational delivery has been found inadequate in study after study to train folks in many skillls an Optician needs to effectively practice. It will probably be the method most folks scontinue to support, and I contend that until we get away from this myopic view of the world we will continue to languish in mediocrity. How can anyone argue against education? We are the only profession left without a degree requirement. We must be better prepared......

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## 35oldguy

"The information learned in college courses are what should be taught in high schools across the country."


Sounds like the education in the high schools is not too good if they have to teach it in the universities.

President Bush needs to get his school program a kick in the butt!!

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## Jason Carruthers

If opticianry required a degree, opticians would become extinct.  Some candidates would be unable or unwilling to obtain a degree.  The rest would become optometrists.

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## 35oldguy

Shame people do not recognize the need for a better education!

I just read your profile. Maybe you could give them an online Dale Carnegie course. Maybe they just need to up their self-esteem!





> If opticianry required a degree, opticians would become extinct. Some candidates would be unable or unwilling to obtain a degree. The rest would become optometrists.

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## wmcdonald

Opticians can and should move into new areas that can and will be exciting for them. If all they are to do is measure PDs and take seg heights, you are correct. To advance an education is required. I am and always will be proud to be an Optician. Education has opened up many doors for me and I want my peers to be able to experience the same opportunities. But......you can lead a horse to water....the drinking part you cannot make them do. I believe if we had stronger requirements, we would draw higher calibre folks. We will never be extinct!

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## chip anderson

Wm:  Don't know about horses, but it's never a problem to lead an optician to drink.  If you don't the business will.

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## wmcdonald

Thanks for the humor! It is almost 5:00.........

Warren

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## Jason Carruthers

Just want to clarify your stance.


> Opticians can and should move into new areas that can and will be exciting for them. If all they are to do is measure PDs and take seg heights, you are correct.  To advance an education is required. I am and always will be proud to be an Optician. Education has opened up many doors for me and I want my peers to be able to experience the same opportunities. But......you can lead a horse to water....the drinking part you cannot make them do. I believe if we had stronger requirements, we would draw higher calibre folks. We will never be extinct!


It sounds like you're saying that if opticians stay in their current roles of dispensing, then you agree with me that a 4 year degree requirement will cause extinction.  If so, that's exactly what I believe.

When you say "move into new areas" I assume you are talking about prescribing?  If so, I agree that opticians should move into prescribing glasses, which of course, would require education.  But I still think that a 4 year degree is unnecessary.

To all opticians who think people need a 4-year degree to dispense glasses, I have one question.  Why are you not optometrists?

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## Darryl Meister

I don't think a degree requirement for opticians will render them extinct, and I believe that many countries in Europe require just that. I also believe that it would, in fact, raise the quality of patient care and elevate opticianry as a career choice. That said, I think it is very unlikely that we will ever see a degree requirement for ophthalmic dispensing in the United States.

And, frankly, I think a 4-year degree program in opticianry would be a very hard sell at this point. After all, there is no requirement for even a 2-year degree, and many of the 2-year programs have also experienced poor attendance figures over the past two decades (several have closed). I couldn't imagine a significant number of individuals applying to a 4-year program. Unfortunately, many opticians just "end up" in this field; they seldom make a deliberate career choice that requries a significant investment in time and cost (and a college program requires both).

However, I think a 2-year degree requirement would have been a very sensible approach, and a 2-year program could certainly cover the vast majority of what a dispensing optician and contact lens fitter should know. But, again, I wonder if we haven't already let this occupation slide too far to ever achieve any real minimum education standards.

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## 35oldguy

Maybe it is boring! Being an optician you deal with that customer from a different perspective and it is more exciting! Can you imagine saying over and over again "is this better or is that better"! 





> Just want to clarify your stance.It sounds like you're saying that if opticians stay in their current roles of dispensing, then you agree with me that a 4 year degree requirement will cause extinction. If so, that's exactly what I believe.
> 
> When you say "move into new areas" I assume you are talking about prescribing? If so, I agree that opticians should move into prescribing glasses, which of course, would require education. But I still think that a 4 year degree is unnecessary.
> 
> To all opticians who think people need a 4-year degree to dispense glasses, I have one question. Why are you not optometrists?

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## 35oldguy

Darryl:

Since you live in KC I wonder if you remember the program put on by the Harmons for opticians. I do not remember but there was another person and Harmon that gave this study course that helped them pass the ABO. Help I do not remeber the details but if you can let me know.

Most opticians this is the way they passed the ABO before they watered it down. These were people that studied after work to get some type of recognition. They were proud to put this certificate on the wall to show to their customers that they were qualified.

This study course was the only way many opticians could get their certificate. In Kansas at one time there was only 4 opticians that had 2 year degrees from a accredited optical school. The optical school that I think all four of us went to was Ferris State in Michigan and it has closed.

The need for educated opticians is necessary! It should be mandatory to have at least a two year program.





> I don't think a degree requirement for opticians will render them extinct, and I believe that many countries in Europe require just that. I also believe that it would, in fact, raise the quality of patient care and elevate opticianry as a career choice. That said, I think it is very unlikely that we will ever see a degree requirement for ophthalmic dispensing in the United States.
> 
> And, frankly, I think a 4-year degree program in opticianry would be a very hard sell at this point. After all, there is no requirement for even a 2-year degree, and many of the 2-year programs have also experienced poor attendance figures over the past two decades (several have closed). I couldn't imagine a significant number of individuals applying to a 4-year program. Unfortunately, many opticians just "end up" in this field; they seldom make a deliberate career choice that requries a significant investment in time and cost (and a college program requires both).
> 
> However, I think a 2-year degree requirement would have been a very sensible approach, and a 2-year program could certainly cover the vast majority of what a dispensing optician and contact lens fitter should know. But, again, I wonder if we haven't already let this occupation slide too far to ever achieve any real minimum education standards.

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## Lynne

> We unfortunately have lost the schools Ed mentions, but all is not lost. There are many schools doing fine and growing, and in fact new programs as well. University of Arkansas Mountain Home has a new program that is Internet-based, as does Vermont and Hawaii. We lose a few and gain a few. The whole point is this; moving from state to state as Chris has mentioned will be easy wheh we have some common ground. If an Optician in NC and an Optician in California are similarly trained it will be easier to transport a license. Then legislation can come, much like Optometry is doing currently. Education is the key.


I wasn't aware of the internet school in Hawaii, we were under the impression that there were no schools for opticianry at all in Hawaii.  Failed to find it with a Google, do you have the web address?  Would be great if they do NCLE CE's too!! :) 

In fact all our Optometrists and Pharmacists have to go to the mainland for training.....  :( Only Oahu has a 4 yr school, at UH, and the neighbour islands have 2 yr Community Colleges, altho I think that Hilo on the Big Island does have some 4 yr programmes.  Our Governor is pushing for a 4yr school on all the islands, but I guess the cost is too prohibitive.

For the Hawaii State License you have to obtain, and maintain, just the ABO and NCLE, simply because they don't have any educational entities instate.  Welcome to the Islands!!  Sure is nice here though!  Anyone want to move over and start schools? :idea:   On Maui only 11 State Licensed people, according to the State Website for Vocational Licensing a few months ago!!  The more education the better, keeps the old grey cells in motion instead of coagulating!

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## Darryl Meister

> Since you live in KC I wonder if you remember the program put on by the Harmons for opticians.


No, but I've only lived in Kansas City for about 4 years.

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## Jason Carruthers

> Maybe it is boring! Being an optician you deal with that customer from a different perspective and it is more exciting! Can you imagine saying over and over again "is this better or is that better"!


You're right, Old Guy.  But isn't that what opticians want anyway, to refract?

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## Alvaro Cordova

This is my take on the whole deal.  I believe in education very strongly.  I think that opticians should have _at least_ an AAS in Ophthalmics.  I think that a 4 year program should be introduced and have the 2 year phased out eventually.  I know that there is plenty of material ranging from business, management to lens designing, fabrication and, of course, optics.  I'm the type who wants to become better at what I do.  From the sound of it, I'm not alone.  Opticians are not a dying breed and opticianry is not a dying field.  I know that the past few years have been bad though, but I see much change at least where I'm at.  The crop of students taking the test mostly have BS degrees in various fields and have opted for the AAS in Ophthalmics.  More importantly, many understand or are coming to understand the political nature of opticianry and are getting involved with their national and State organizations.  The use of modern technology such as the internet (Optiboard for example :) ) are connecting people in ways that make them more aware of the plight to do something about what opticianry is going through.  I'm really thinking that we're going to get over the slump real soon.

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## jediron1

Jason Carruthers
If opticianry required a degree, opticians would become extinct. Some candidates would be unable or unwilling to obtain a degree. The rest would become optometrists.[/QUOTE]


I don't know about extinct, but some in other states would drop out. All I can say from experience in N.Y. state is that it once was a proud state with the tuffest exam in Optical. Now it's just the MICKEY MOUSE ABO. H_LL when I took the N.Y. exam in 1973 we had 4 and half days of testing with every day of two tests, one in the morning and one in the afternoon with one day being Anatomy and Physiology and another day being the brutal Geometric Optics exam.  :Rolleyes:

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## HarryChiling

So many points to discuss can't put my thoughts together.

In Maryland optometrists just got a steroid bill passed.  They are trying to move into the pathology.  As opticians we get nothing.  We have no friends, we have no money, but we have numbers.

Numbers is where our strength lies.  

What if our societys were to go non-profit and focus on getting more members to vote on issues and trying to bring about legislation and organize the numbers? 

What if opticians had a union organize our numbers?

What if opticians created a lobbying group (nationally) use funding by our numbers?

If you want to get educated learn politics and the art of deception.  Our field has been being played by both sides ODs and OMDs.  I have never had an OD or OMD disagree with licensure, education, and credibility in our proffesion.  However, that is what their lobbyists and money thrown at congress does.

Forget about education and national licensure this is the end game, it begins by organizing and rallying our cause.  I for one would like to see a union or national lobbying group.  I for one would donate $20-$50 a month for someone willing to fight on my behalf.  This would have more impact on our carrer than trying to get education.   The education will trickle down.

If opticians were to start fighting for more rights (fitting CL nationally, Refracting, ...).  If these were the things we were fighting for naturally then the ODs and OMDs would bring the issue that our lack of education is what prevents that.  This creates a need for the opticianry schools and the education, in turn craetes more demand for opticianry programs and schools then in turn validating our arguments to be allowed the rights.

We need to stride towards small goals and victories now with hope of creating momentum to attain our larger goals in the future.

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## wmcdonald

Harry,
The reason Opticians fight is that they have little invested. In many ststes, Opticians earn a great living for their educational level, which is none. I know many states where Opticians earn more that teachers, all with 4-year degrees; in fact most. No one isuggesting folks must go back to school, just that we need to make future Opticians better! Before we can have a feasible organization we must have common ground, and the ONLY way I can see to achieve that goal is through the training and education process. Canada is different. You actually have higher standards the we in the US. In many states here a hambergurger sales person can go to work as an Optician with no training at all. It is ridiculous. We are beyond the small goal approach you suggest, and moving rapidly to losing more ground. We need to start building competent practitioners who possess optical knowledge, not just sales clerks. There is a post that says that women make better Opticians than men. The first post says he likes to hire women because they (an I paraphrase from memory) are better sales people. That is bulll, and I want Opticians to move ahead. Refraction is but one thing we can do beyond asking Mrs. Jones if she like the blue or red frame best.

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## Judy Canty

> I wasn't aware of the internet school in Hawaii, we were under the impression that there were no schools for opticianry at all in Hawaii. Failed to find it with a Google, do you have the web address? Would be great if they do NCLE CE's too!! :)


Check the NFOS (www.nfos.org) website for the information on Leeward.

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## Judy Canty

Harry,

That's what OAM and OAA are trying to do. Are you a member of either organization?

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## jediron1

> So many points to discuss can't put my thoughts together.
> 
> Forget about education and national licensure this is the end game, it begins by organizing and rallying our cause. I for one would like to see a union or national lobbying group. I for one would donate $20-$50 a month for someone willing to fight on my behalf. This would have more impact on our carrer than trying to get education. The education will trickle down.
> 
> If opticians were to start fighting for more rights (fitting CL nationally, Refracting, ...). If these were the things we were fighting for naturally then the ODs and OMDs would bring the issue that our lack of education is what prevents that. This creates a need for the opticianry schools and the education, in turn craetes more demand for opticianry programs and schools then in turn validating our arguments to be allowed the rights.
> 
> We need to stride towards small goals and victories now with hope of creating momentum to attain our larger goals in the future.


 
I condensed your remarks. MCD and I have had this argument for a while. In N.Y. state ( if you read my post above ) we had one of the tuffest exams in the nation. Then one day the large chains thought that if we can get N.Y. to change it's licensing laws we can hire more Opticains at a lower rate. We fought that fight for almost six months and lost, I didn't notice anyone from any other state coming to help us when we needed it, they all sat back and said lets watch and see where N.Y. goes. ( We went to the MICKEY MOUSE ABO ) It would have been nice to have help from states like Florida where now licensing laws are tuffer, but they didn't. MCD is living in a fantasy world, you will never get all the Opticains together because each state has there own agenda and they won't band together because there are also many differences between states and regulations in each state. I believe it's 23 states have licensing and the others could care less. They ( Opticains ) make a decent wage so they don't want to rock the boat. Just my 2 cents  :Cool:

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## OPTIDONN

ok I just joined the Opticians Association of Illinois and will join the OAA but what exactly can I do to help advance the field? Is there anything?

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## wmcdonald

is correct. My argument is the we need education to advance, and research indicates the field is ready for it. If we cannot get together we may as well disband completely and forget about it. I am not arguing with you, just stating my opinion. I want Opticians to move ahead, and you appear to have given up. I am deeply sorry for you, and wish the best, but I will continue to fight to upgrade my profession as long as I can. It gets tough, but every now and then I get an email from someone who says thanks. That makes it worth the effort. So, I may be living in a fantsy world, but I often look back on some of the fathers of early Optometry. I am modeling my plan after their efforts. Do you have a plan, or are you only able to post negative comments about others. Do something proactie for a change if you can!

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## Judy Canty

> ok I just joined the Opticians Association of Illinois and will join the OAA but what exactly can I do to help advance the field? Is there anything?


There sure is....become ACTIVE! Join committees, attend board meetings, make your voice heard, and of course recruit more active members.  Remember...strength in numbers.

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## Alvaro Cordova

> I condensed your remarks. MCD and I have had this argument for a while. In N.Y. state ( if you read my post above ) we had one of the tuffest exams in the nation. Then one day the large chains thought that if we can get N.Y. to change it's licensing laws we can hire more Opticains at a lower rate. We fought that fight for almost six months and lost, I didn't notice anyone from any other state coming to help us when we needed it, they all sat back and said lets watch and see where N.Y. goes. ( We went to the MICKEY MOUSE ABO ) It would have been nice to have help from states like Florida where now licensing laws are tuffer, but they didn't. MCD is living in a fantasy world, you will never get all the Opticains together because each state has there own agenda and they won't band together because there are also many differences between states and regulations in each state. I believe it's 23 states have licensing and the others could care less. They ( Opticains ) make a decent wage so they don't want to rock the boat. Just my 2 cents


Well, my site is about this.  This is the reason I made my site.  The more members I get, the more pressure we all can put on legislatures and governors.  I think of my site as a union without the union dues.  I created my website out of the paranoia that licensure can be taken away.  I would urge anyone especially if you belong to your State organization to join my site and post whatver help you need should some type of attack come up.

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## Alvaro Cordova

Oh, any studies on education and opticianry would be appreciated.  I found one on the NFOS website.

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## Judy Canty

> They ( Opticains ) make a decent wage so they don't want to rock the boat.


But why be satisfied with a "decent wage" when we're worth so much more? Opticians have allowed everyone else in the field to define who we are and what we're worth. It's time to educate and legislate, just like Optometry has done for the past few decades. Websites alone won't get it done, education alone won't either. We need strong state and national organizations and an equally strong commitment to college-level education to move forward.

While I'm at it, remember that our national organizations appoint the members of the ABO/NCLE and if you're not an ACTIVE member of any of them, you have NO voice in how the exam looks.

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## Alvaro Cordova

> ok I just joined the Opticians Association of Illinois and will join the OAA but what exactly can I do to help advance the field? Is there anything?


What is needed from all optcians is perseverence.  Many get frustrated, So basically expect things to move slowly at times.  That is the way legislatures move so try not to get too frustrated and make the erroneous conclusion that "nothing is happening."  Whenever something comes up, send letters to the OAI to do something and of course you start writing letters, maybe even pay your legislative body/governor a visit.  Be as proactive as possible.  For example I'm writing letters now to gauge where most of the legislature in NJ feel about education and licensure.

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## Alvaro Cordova

> But why be satisfied with a "decent wage" when we're worth so much more?  Opticians have allowed everyone else in the field to define who we are and what we're worth.  It's time to educate and legislate, just like Optometry has done for the past few decades.  Websites alone won't get it done, education alone won't either.  We need strong state and national organizations and an equally strong commitment to college-level education to move forward.


Websites would really be more for mobilization, disemination of information and education to both opticians and non-opticial related fields.  So your right, that they alone can't really do anything per se, but it is the fact that one can mobilize on an issue that is of most benefit.

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## wmcdonald

We cannot win in the legislature. We have no funds to fight and what do we argue? What is the plan? What do you want your organizations to do? Legislatuve folks will never support a profession with no educational requirements, and very little common ground. Do you want more contact lenses? Do you want to support refraction? Or do you just want a license to have one and elevate salaries? Licensure is a dead issue until we plan for the future. Education must precede legislation, as Optometry has shown us.

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## 35oldguy

You might be right! Then there would be no need for an optician. Just eliminate them. OD's only want to hire cheap help!






> You're right, Old Guy. But isn't that what opticians want anyway, to refract?

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## Alvaro Cordova

> We cannot win in the legislature. We have no funds to fight and what do we argue? What is the plan? What do you want your organizations to do? Legislatuve folks will never support a profession with no educational requirements, and very little common ground. Do you want more contact lenses? Do you want to support refraction? Or do you just want a license to have one and elevate salaries? Licensure is a dead issue until we plan for the furute. Education must precede legislation, as Optometry has shown us.


If education is to precede legislation, how do we get the necessary education to places where there isn't any schooling available?  I know that there is a distance learning program offered at some schools, but this has its own issues.  We need to get a program offered in some community colleges.  There isn't any accessibility for education in unlicensed states.  I really feel for people in those states that are talented and simply go unrecognized and unable to get an education that they want.

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## HarryChiling

> The reason Opticians fight is that they have little invested


This is the reason for starting some kind of national fund to create the money to fight.




> That's what OAM and OAA are trying to do


The OAM is a joke.  They are a dead organization as far as I know.  They used to offer courses at the community college in baltimore and they still boast that as an accomplishment, but they have not held a class in 10 years or more.

The OAA sounds like a great organization and is, but in the past years they are only focused on the few states that have any licensure laws.  They are not actively pursueing any legislation in the states that need them.  The focus should be on federal laws, not state.

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## Alvaro Cordova

> This is the reason for starting some kind of national fund to create the money to fight.
> 
> 
> 
> The OAM is a joke.  They are a dead organization as far as I know.  They used to offer courses at the community college in baltimore and they still boast that as an accomplishment, but they have not held a class in 10 years or more.
> 
> The OAA sounds like a great organization and is, but in the past years they are only focused on the few states that have any licensure laws.  They are not actively pursueing any legislation in the states that need them.  The focus should be on federal laws, not state.


Is the OAM "The Opticians Association of Massachusetts?"  Didn't they just pass a law requiring fines for people whose license are either suspended, revoked and for unlicensed people?  

Unfortunately, legislation is a state issue and not a federal one

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## wmcdonald

How do you know about Distance Learning? Have you taken courses? Harvard, Stanford and many other outstanding universities teach through DL, but it must not be good enough for you. DL is a valid delivery system and can and will provide excellent opportunities for future Opticians. As to the need for additional schools and locations; there are 24 COA-accredited schools. ODs only have 17, and they are sending students to their schools from all over the country. We need to support existing NFOS schools by sending students to them. We have educational opportunities, but unfortunately many of thsoe we attract today are seeking a job, not a profession, and get by on the minimum. In many states our income is excellent for our academic preperation, and we constantly whine. Not many with high school educations make the kind of money Opticians make unless you want to do some of the building trades, etc. Education is our only path to an improved future. I have been in those legislatures, and seen how we are viewed, and it is not pretty. Form all the organizations you wish, but unless you have something solid to present, you will not be successful. Why do you think we have not licensed a new state for over 20 years? because we can do little harm to the public by helping select the blue or red frame and taking a PD. We must educate to a higher level and then legislate. It will be a slow process.

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## Alvaro Cordova

> How do you know about Distance Learning? Have you taken courses? Harvard, Stanford and many other outstanding universities teach through DL, but it must not be good enough for you. DL is a valid delivery system and can and will provide excellent opportunities for future Opticians. As to the need for additional schools and locations; there are 24 COA-accredited schools. ODs only have 17, and they are sending students to their schools from all over the country. We need to support existing NFOS schools by sending students to them. We have educational opportunities, but unfortunately many of thsoe we attract today are seeking a job, not a profession, and get by on the minimum. In many states our income is excellent for our academic preperation, and we constantly whine. Not many with high school educations make the kind of money Opticians make unless you want to do some of the building trades, etc. Education is our only path to an improved future. I have been in those legislatures, and seen how we are viewed, and it is not pretty. Form all the organizations you wish, but unless you have something solid to present, you will not be successful. Why do you think we have not licensed a new state for over 20 years? because we can do little harm to the public by helping select the blue or red frame and taking a PD. We must educate to a higher level and then legislate. It will be a slow process.


I would imagine labs would be difficult through a distance learning scenario.  That is what I meant about "issues."  I already have a degree in this field from Raritan Community College in NJ, a COA accredited school.  I have a BS in Computer Science, minor in mathematics, from a really good school (Rutgers University in Piscataway/NB, NJ).  I am eventually going to go for a Masters in Math.  I know how important it is to have direct access to a teacher.  This field is a hands on field.  I think that DL is great for knowledge when it comes to learning things like theory, anatomy and terminology etc...   A lot of the instruction from my teachers came in the form of constructive criticism of adjustments when doing my dispensing labs.  I'm not suggesting, in any way shape or form, the eliminating of DL.  I am suggesting that current 2-year schools in unlicensed states incorporate an ophthalmics program.  I would like to see more accessibility to ophthalmic education.  I would have never known about this (ophthalmics) program if it was a DL program.  I have taken two DL courses offered at my school, one was a _Psychology 101_ class and the other was _Intro to Small Business Management_.  I have taken the ABO/NCLE despite the fact that it isn't a requirement in NJ.  I plan on taking the advanced exam real soon for both the ABO and NCLE.  I'm doing everything I can to better myself.  I started my own website to make opticians aware of educational, political and legislative issues in my state specifically (cause I live here, but am very interested in helping out other states as well).  I would appreciate it if you held off on the sarcasm.  I walk the walk!

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## wmcdonald

can easily be handled through a variety of methods. It is easy to accomplish, and I have significant experience in the area. I do not mean to be sarcastic; it comes from my passion to move Opticianry forward, and saying the same old things for the last 25 years.....time after time....and continually having to defend something like the need for a basic education! I will stand by my thesis that Opticians can and should expand their scope of practice and to do so will require an education. DL can provide that for states in which schools are not in existance. I am pleased to hear you have a respectable background in education, but two courses are not sufficient to judge DL methodology. Many of the current schools have low enrollments, for a number of reasons, so attempting to develop new schools when we are not a capacity in existing programs is not feasible. Opticianry programs can be expensive to develop, and those with DL are faring far better than those who do not.  

You indicate you are going to get a grad degree in Math; congratulations! I would encourage you to look at some of the Optical Science programs. The University of Arizona has one, and it is online. You will be amazed at what you can do in that program, and I hope you take a look at it. 

Look, I am not attempting to disparage you personally. You sound like you are just as passionate as I am, so lets work together to get something done. I know of your Opticianry program; I was the chair of it's first accrediting team, and know it to be a good program. I think you will understand that Opticians need to be better prepared. That is my goal, and many others and it is at least getting better. 25 years ago everyone thought those who support expanding educational requirements was wrong. Today, my research indicates strong support for a more advanced educational system for Opticians. Please consider giving it your support as well.

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## Alvaro Cordova

> Look, I am not attempting to disparage you personally. You sound like you are just as passionate as I am, so lets work together to get something done. I know of your Opticianry program; I was the chair of it's first accrediting team, and know it to be a good program. I think you will understand that Opticians need to be better prepared. That is my goal, and many others and it is at least getting better. 25 years ago everyone thought those who support expanding educational requirements was wrong. Today, my research indicates strong support for a more advanced educational system for Opticians. Please consider giving it your support as well.


It's a deal. :)
As soon as I find out I'm licensed ( I just took the exam this past Sept. 27th and 28th), I will be joining the OAA and my state org, OANJ.

On a related note, do DL-COA accredited schools offer any type of scholarships/reduced rates to students in other states to encourage enrollment?  One of the bigger problems has to stem from the fact that many opticians in unlicensed states do not make a whole hell-uv-alot of money and therefore hardpressed to enroll into a program to its completion.  It involves a commitment that may not be possible due to financial hardship.  Some may have families to consider, sick relative etc...

I think you would be proud of the crop of students taking the state exam here in NJ.

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## Lynne

> Check the NFOS (www.nfos.org) website for the information on Leeward.


:) :) What a great site!!  Thanks!

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## Alvaro Cordova

For those intersted in the link to what wmcdonald referred to at University of Arizona:

University of Arizona - Master of Science in Optical Sciences

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## OPTIDONN

I just wish that there were more DL schools. I have been trying to get involved with one for a long time but so far no such luck.

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## Alvaro Cordova

The NFOS site has information (website links to the respective schools and numbers of people to contact).  What trouble have you been having?

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## Graduate

It is nice to know my colleagues are now getting serious about education.Keep up the spirit:cheers:

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## OPTIDONN

> The NFOS site has information (website links to the respective schools and numbers of people to contact). What trouble have you been having?


I have called many of the schools. At this point they want you to show up for some hands on work. They are all way too far for me to drive. Some are however working on being able to 'proctor' out exams and have a trusted graduate opticain give the tests but as far as I know it has not been approved by any of the schools. I think that the DL courses were developed to reach opticians that could not other wise show up every day for courses but are close enough to demonstrate what they have learned. I mentioned in a previous post that I wish that there were at least a certificate course in OPHTHALMIC OPTICS. At least for this it could all be done via the internet.

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## jediron1

wmcdonald
is correct. My argument is the we need education to advance, and research indicates the field is ready for it. If we cannot get together we may as well disband completely and forget about it. I am not arguing with you, just stating my opinion. I want Opticians to move ahead, and you appear to have given up. I am deeply sorry for you, and wish the best, but I will continue to fight to upgrade my profession as long as I can. It gets tough, but every now and then I get an email from someone who says thanks. That makes it worth the effort. So, I may be living in a fantsy world, but I often look back on some of the fathers of early Optometry. I am modeling my plan after their efforts. Do you have a plan, or are you only able to post negative comments about others. Do something proactie for a change if you can![/QUOTE]


WOW the venom in your statements has me awe-struck! I never gave up I was only giving you a history lesson one in which you sorely need. As you said I m not arguing with you just giving you my opinion! Well I gave mine! Do something proactie ( I think you meant proactive ) what do you want us to do in our PROACTIVE stance? You mouth a lot rhetoric but I have seen no concrete plans for anything except for pie in the sky and the great bye and bye. Concrete plans would be to start an organization from the ground floor and then establish rules and regulations that all can agree too and the states will ratify. Without the states ratifing your going nowhere. What has to be done is going from state to state getting ratification then going on to the next state until all fifty are in agreement. There are some ideas. What you call negative I call constructive criticism, how do grow and go on unless you see the flaws that are in your case? Again just my opinion!  :Rolleyes:

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## Alvaro Cordova

OK, I think that opticianry could use a boost of optimism.  I don't believe it is all or nothing.  I forget who said it, but we are a "tipping point society." It may seem that at first our efforts are for nothing, but we are very close to a renaissance.  There are states doing OK too.  As wmcdonald said, we need people to get educated.  We need to ask why is there so little enrollment in COA schools and more importantly what can we do about it?  I tell everyone I know about the field and how I get educated, so word of mouth is one way to get the field going, but obviously not enough.  I say we start attacking this problem now, collectively.  What do we know(ie studies etc...)?  What needs to get done?  Opticianry needs a poster child or some type of PR image.  Many don't even know we exist and what we do.  They only know that whoever gives them their glasses should be educated.

I'm trying now to get people to write to their representatives on all levels of government.  Primarily state.  Aside from getting involved in our state and national orgs, what can we do?

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## ikon44

The association of  british dispensing opticians have helped students all over the world to become qualified through their distance learning programme ABDO qualification is recognised worldwide of being a high standard, indeed in canada the ABDO qualification allows you to refract.

you can check it out at

www.abdo.org.uk:cheers:

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## OPTIDONN

> The association of british dispensing opticians have helped students all over the world to become qualified through their distance learning programme ABDO qualification is recognised worldwide of being a high standard, indeed in canada the ABDO qualification allows you to refract.
> 
> you can check it out at
> 
> www.abdo.org.uk:cheers:


Really? Thanks!!:cheers:  I will check that out!

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## OPTIDONN

I just checked out the courses! They are just what I was looking for!!! That is so awsome. I have checked out the site before and have purchased books books from the ABDO but it never occured to me that they have DL classes. I am signing up!!:D

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## ikon44

> I just checked out the courses! They are just what I was looking for!!! That is so awsome. I have checked out the site before and have purchased books books from the ABDO but it never occured to me that they have DL classes. I am signing up!!:D


Go for it Donn, they are tough courses,lots of skull sweat, but very rewarding.

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## Jacqui

I just looked at ABDO and I'm impressed. I'll finish my MS Nursing next spring and may consider taking a few courses.

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## OPTIDONN

I just recieved an email from the ABDO and I can take their three year course. And boy it looks like a heck program. I AM SO EXCITED!!! Finally a school that offers courses that I can take and its one of the THE BEST!! IKON I could plant a big juicy kiss right on your cheek. I never thought about the ABDO thank you for sugesting it!!!:D

----------


## ikon44

> I just recieved an email from the ABDO and I can take their three year course. And boy it looks like a heck program. I AM SO EXCITED!!! Finally a school that offers courses that I can take and its one of the THE BEST!! IKON I could plant a big juicy kiss right on your cheek. I never thought about the ABDO thank you for sugesting it!!!:D


A large beer will be fine Donn, i am so pleased you are taking the abdo course ,i did try to send you a PM but your file is full and you need to clear some down.

----------


## OPTIDONN

> A large beer will be fine Donn, i am so pleased you are taking the abdo course ,i did try to send you a PM but your file is full and you need to clear some down.


What can I say...I'm popular!:hammer:

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## Alvaro Cordova

> What can I say...I'm popular!:hammer:



Good luck on those courses.  If I can help, let me know.

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## rbaker

I wonder if any American State Boards of Registration or the ABO would accept these ABDO courses for either registration or CE credits?

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## ikon44

> I wonder if any American State Boards of Registration or the ABO would accept these ABDO courses for either registration or CE credits?


the course is very comprehensive, the syllabus for each of the years is :

Distance Learning - Course details


*1st Year Dispensing Diploma Course*



._Sample Syllabus_ 
The eye and the way it works 
Errors of refraction and their correction 
Refractive index: Laws of refraction 
Laws of reflection 
Critical angle: Total internal reflection 
Refraction at a single curved surface: Vergence 
Refraction: Lens power 
Graphical constructions 
Thin lenses: Conjugate foci 
Thin lenses: Image formation: Magnification 
Effectivity: Compound systems: Step-along 
Sph-cyl lenses: Neutralisation: Sign convention 
Sph-cyl lenses: Transposition 
Sph-cyl lenses: Transposition [continued] 
Toric lenses: Transposition 
Curvature: Lens thickness 
Curvature: Lens measure 
Line foci formation from astigmatic lenses 
Lens media 
Curved mirrors 
Prisms: Dispersion: Colour: UV: IR: Chr. Ab.: Optical density 
Prisms: Minimum deviation 
Ophthalmic prisms: Tangent scale 
Prisms and decentration 
Wave motion: Pinhole camera: Shadows and eclipses 
Photometry 
Spectacle frame measurements 
Frame materials 
Facial measurements 
Frame adjustments 
Practical dispensing 
Compounding and resolving prisms 

second year
_Sample Syllabus_ 
Objectives of Communication 
Communication in Dispensing - oral and written 
Communication in Selling 
The Animal Cell 
Graphical Constructions 
Muscle Tissue & Nerve Supply 
Effectivity 
Central Nervous System 
The Skull & Orbit 
Cardinal Point of Lenses 
The Cornea, Limbus & Sclera 
The Uvea 
Monochromatic Aberrations 
The Retina 
The Aqueous, Vitreous, Lens 
Chromatic Aberration 
The Eyelids, Conjunctiva 
Angular Magnification 
Visual Pathways 
Optical Instruments 
Extrinsic Muscles 
Polarisation 
The Orbital Blood & Nerve Supply 
Interference 
Pathological Conditions 
Diffraction 
Pharmacology, Drugs, Solutions _Next course:_ September 2005 
_Application Deadline:_ 1 September 2005 
_Duration:_ 32 Weeks 

third year

Schematic eyes, ametropia 
Revision of basic theory 
Spectacle correction, blurred retinal images 
Cylindrical lenses 
Corrected retinal image sizes, SM, RSM 
The prismatic effects of decentration 
Visual acuity, test-charts, resolution acuity 
Decentrations to produce prismatic effects 
Accommodation & hypermetropia 
Thick lenses 
Accommodation & presbyopia 
The routine eye examination, retinoscopy 
High power lenses 
Subjective refraction 
Fields of view 
Ophthalmoscopes & ophthalmoscopy 
Tinted & protective lenses 
Optometers 
Bifocal lenses 
Visual fields, tonometry 
Purkinje-Sanson images, keratometry 
Multifocal lenses 
Eye movements, accommn. & convergence 
Special lenses 
Normal binocular vision 
Oblique astigmatism, Curvature of field 
Abnormal binocular vision, heterophoria 
Point Focal & Percival Lenses, MT error lenses 
Aspheric Lenses 
Depth perception, retinal receptive fields 
The light sense, induction, intensity coding 
Colour & colour vision, effects of radiation 
SM in thick lenses, aphakia, anisometropia 
Amblyopia, contrast sensitivity 
Occupational vision, glare, flicker, LVA 
Obliquely crossed cyls. 
Ocular astigmatism 

I would hope that the US boards would recognise an ABDO diploma holder as being suitable for licencing.

----------


## OPTIDONN

> Good luck on those courses. If I can help, let me know.


I'm sure that I will be bugging you about some of the math.:bbg:

----------


## Alvaro Cordova

> I'm sure that I will be bugging you about some of the math.:bbg:


that's cool  :bbg:

----------


## wmcdonald

We are currently putting the finishing touches on an agreement to bring the NAIT Optical Science programs to the US. This is designed to serve students from states in which there is no program and I encourage you to take a look before you do anything else. the program is soundly designed and a wonderful foundation that will culminate in a degree and will allow for advanced study in Contact Lenses and/or Sight Testing. The link for the program can be found here with other programs offered by NAIT:
http://www.nait.ca/portal/server.pt/...?CalendarID=93
Take a look and let me know if you have questions.

----------


## OPTIDONN

> We are currently putting the finishing touches on an agreement to bring the NAIT Optical Science programs to the US. This is designed to serve students from states in which there is no program and I encourage you to take a look before you do anything else. the program is soundly designed and a wonderful foundation that will culminate in a degree and will allow for advanced study in Contact Lenses and/or Sight Testing. The link for the program can be found here with other programs offered by NAIT:
> http://www.nait.ca/portal/server.pt/...?CalendarID=93
> Take a look and let me know if you have questions.


I have already been in touch with Ian from there and it seems like not much is happening yet. I think from what I have seen of the ABDO its one of the better choices out there.

----------


## Graduate

> The association of british dispensing opticians have helped students all over the world to become qualified through their distance learning programme ABDO qualification is recognised worldwide of being a high standard, indeed in canada the ABDO qualification allows you to refract.
> 
> you can check it out at
> 
> www.abdo.org.uk:cheers:


I have worked with both ABDO and NCLE graduates and seen the actual ABDO course.ABDO students learn lots of unneccessary theory and are dumb in practice while opposite is true for American optical course graduate.American courses are less in theory,easy to understand,practical straight to the point.

I would want somebody who is good in practise.

Please see I am not discouraging anyone and I know ABDO courses are recognised world wide.

----------


## HarryChiling

> I have worked with both ABDO and NCLE graduates and seen the actual ABDO course.ABDO students learn lots of unneccessary theory and are dumb in practice while opposite is true for American optical course graduate.American courses are less in theory,easy to understand,practical straight to the point.
> 
> I would want somebody who is good in practise.
> 
> Please see I am not discouraging anyone and I know ABDO courses are recognised world wide.


Graduate I think another name for it is watered down.  I wouldn't take a course that dumbs thing down for everyone to understand.  I am looking at the course as well.  Hey optidonn do they offer any financial aid packages for the course or would it qualify for any?

----------


## ikon44

> I have worked with both ABDO and NCLE graduates and seen the actual ABDO course.ABDO students learn lots of unneccessary theory and are dumb in practice while opposite is true for American optical course graduate.American courses are less in theory,easy to understand,practical straight to the point.
> 
> I would want somebody who is good in practise.
> 
> Please see I am not discouraging anyone and I know ABDO courses are 
> recognised world wide.


In the uk dispensing optician is a protected title,no one can dispense children or eye hospital prescriptions unless they are registered DO, also as part of their responsibilities they have to refer to an MD if a patient comes in with a recognisable problem.
the course is wide ranging and covers a lot of areas you may consider pointless,however the breadth of knowledge gained is priceless in the practice set up, i would also say that virtually all of the biggest and most successful practices employ ABDO graduates.
I also understand that in Canada ABDO graduates are allowed to carry out refractions due to the depth of their training.I would finish by saying that you can never know enough about your chosen profession

----------


## OPTIDONN

> In the uk dispensing optician is a protected title,no one can dispense children or eye hospital prescriptions unless they are registered DO, also as part of their responsibilities they have to refer to an MD if a patient comes in with a recognisable problem.
> the course is wide ranging and covers a lot of areas you may consider pointless,however the breadth of knowledge gained is priceless in the practice set up, i would also say that virtually all of the biggest and most successful practices employ ABDO graduates.
> I also understand that in Canada ABDO graduates are allowed to carry out refractions due to the depth of their training.I would finish by saying that you can never know enough about your chosen profession


Well said! Learn, learn, learn as much as you can about your profession any way that you can! 

Harry I don't think that they have financial aid. I have to take out a student loan but I think that the courses are well worth it.

----------


## Graduate

> In the uk dispensing optician is a protected title,no one can dispense children or eye hospital prescriptions unless they are registered DO, also as part of their responsibilities they have to refer to an MD if a patient comes in with a recognisable problem.
> the course is wide ranging and covers a lot of areas you may consider pointless,however the breadth of knowledge gained is priceless in the practice set up, i would also say that virtually all of the biggest and most successful practices employ ABDO graduates.
> I also understand that in Canada ABDO graduates are allowed to carry out refractions due to the depth of their training.I would finish by saying that you can never know enough about your chosen profession


Can some one from Canada find out from Canadian optical regulatory bodies if ABDO qualification is recognised in Canada to the extent of being allowed to Refract :Rolleyes: 

From what I understand is Canada recognizes North American qualifications only.BUT....I can be wrong, let us clear this out.

----------


## Graduate

> Graduate I think another name for it is watered down. I wouldn't take a course that dumbs thing down for everyone to understand. I am looking at the course as well. Hey optidonn do they offer any financial aid packages for the course or would it qualify for any?


Harry I have not meant to "watered-down" the course. Fact is anywhere you go with ABDO qualification you gain immediate respected recognition though I am not sure about Canada recognizing ABDO graduates.
What I mean is I find ABO/NCLE graduates better in practical practise.

Try visiting any UK optical discussion forums and compare it with our mostly North American Optiboard discussion forums and decide yourself where is the cream.

----------


## HarryChiling

I hold a ABO/NCLE and did not have to apply any where near the scope of knowledge that they have on their sylabus. I don't know how much the ABO/NCLE certifications are worth when they are so easy to get. I work with a complete idiot who passed the ABO. The optical theory is what creates innovations in our field the certifications just create semi competant workers.

Just my opinion

----------


## Ian Jordan

In UK you can also undertake degree level training (same exams for qualification as ABDO) + post grad study in a number of areas. These include contact lens practice, low vision, lens design, optical management. 
Others (like myself) are in research and development.
I will be running post grad diploma course next year in the effects of visual stimulus on performance, the level is very high (much higher than standard optometric training - we expect a significant number of students to be optometrists, MD's and psychologists) and I expect virtually everything I will teach to be relevant in practice. I expect anyone on the course to have sufficient background knowledge to enable them to move at a fast pace. 

Having a qualification however does not guarantee a good practitioner, it does however show that they have a MINIMUM level of competence in understanding a subject. The difference should be apparent when there is a complex problem, a competent optician should be able to sort it out! But, if they do not have sufficient theoretical knowledge - it will often be impossible. It is so much more difficult for a self taught person to achieve a sufficient breadth of knowledge, possible, but difficult. 
If you want to achieve status in US - you have no alternative - you must aim for the highest possible standards. That means education!

----------


## ikon44

> Can some one from Canada find out from Canadian optical regulatory bodies if ABDO qualification is recognised in Canada to the extent of being allowed to Refract
> 
> From what I understand is Canada recognizes North American qualifications only.BUT....I can be wrong, let us clear this out.


I have a colleague in the UK who is moving to canada, and he confirmed that ABDO graduates can carry out refraction in canada, this is not the same as a full blown sight test, my understanding is that in canada a suitably qualified person can carry out a refraction to determine the prescription for spectacles.

----------


## jediron1

HarryChiling
I hold a ABO/NCLE and did not have to apply any where near the scope of knowledge that they have on their sylabus. I don't know how much the ABO/NCLE certifications are worth when they are so easy to get. I work with a complete idiot who passed the ABO. The optical theory is what creates innovations in our field the certifications just create semi competant workers.

Just my opinion[/QUOTE]



That sylabus looks very much like the Old New York Board that I took. Very difficult but very much needed. Instead we get the MICKEY MOUSE ABO.  :Cool:

----------


## Jason Carruthers

> I have a colleague in the UK who is moving to canada, and he confirmed that ABDO graduates can carry out refraction in canada, this is not the same as a full blown sight test, my understanding is that in canada a suitably qualified person can carry out a refraction to determine the prescription for spectacles.


The last time I checked, only a licensed optometrist or physician can prescribe glasses in Canada.

The act of refracting, without prescribing, is in the public domain and can be performed by anyone.  But why would you want to refract someone without prescribing?  That's like measuring someone's shoe size without selling them a pair of shoes.

----------


## For-Life

> The last time I checked, only a licensed optometrist or physician can prescribe glasses in Canada.
> 
> The act of refracting, without prescribing, is in the public domain and can be performed by anyone. But why would you want to refract someone without prescribing? That's like measuring someone's shoe size without selling them a pair of shoes.


In Alberta and I think BC laws have passed that have allowed Opticians to refract.

----------


## Darryl Meister

> What I mean is I find ABO/NCLE graduates better in practical practise.


Keep in mind that you don't learn anything or "graduate" from the ABO. It is a certifying body, only. You show up to an ABO exam, answer 100 questions on ophthalmic dispensing, which range in difficulty level from moderate to easy, and receive a certificate in the mail.

Further, many people who take the ABO do so after _many years_ in the business (on average, I would say at least 5 years). Consequently, they will generally have had much more practical experience than a new ABDO graduate.




> I just recieved an email from the ABDO and I can take their three year course. And boy it looks like a heck program.


Donn, Last time I checked into the ABDO's distance program (which admittedly was many years ago), they required you to attend two or three sessions in England. Since I believe that you mentioned that traveling was an issue, you might consider this.

That said, many opticianry programs in Europe, including the programs in the UK and Germany, are top-notch. I have seen much of the coursework from the ABDO's program (after helping a fellow OptiBoarder with her courses), and it is extremely comprehensive and well beyond any program you are likely to see in the US short of an optometry or 4-year ophthalmic technology degree.

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## OPTIDONN

I checked out the web site and there is mention of people residing in the UK and Ireland need to show up for some course work. They said in the email that geographical location is not an issue. I hope this means that I won't have to travel there...I can't afford that. So far as I know I won't have to travel and could do it via phone, fax, internet, etc. Not to sure yet how it will work.

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## Darryl Meister

You might send them an e-mail asking for clarification.

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## OPTIDONN

Yeah I just did. I realized that I asked if the course was open to some one in the US. I didn't mention if travel was required:hammer:

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## ikon44

> Yeah I just did. I realized that I asked if the course was open to some one in the US. I didn't mention if travel was required:hammer:


If you are outside the UK or Ireland then you dont have to attend the block release part of the course,everything can be done at home.

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## OPTIDONN

> If you are outside the UK or Ireland then you dont have to attend the block release part of the course,everything can be done at home.


YEAH!!!:)

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## OPTIDONN

I just got the confirmation from the ABDO that travel is not required. Classes start next Sept so there is plenty of time to save up!!! Is anyone else out there interested?

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## OPTIDONN

> Harry I have not meant to "watered-down" the course. Fact is anywhere you go with ABDO qualification you gain immediate respected recognition though I am not sure about Canada recognizing ABDO graduates.
> What I mean is I find ABO/NCLE graduates better in practical practise.
> 
> Try visiting any UK optical discussion forums and compare it with our mostly North American Optiboard discussion forums and decide yourself where is the cream.


In order to pass the course you need to demonstrate what you have learned to a designated practice supervisor. And must work at least 30 hours a week in this field. I just hope that the combination of practical experience and theoretical knowledge will be a good combination. Plus I hope that this course will help me get the ABOM and NCLE-AC.

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## ikon44

> Try visiting any UK optical discussion forums and compare it with our mostly North American Optiboard discussion forums and decide yourself where is the cream.


graduate there are only around 6000 registered dispensing opticians in the UK
pop. 55 million, therefore there just are not enough people to get a decent forum. ABDO have their own forum but you have to be a member to post.
this is why i come to optiboard there are so many different points of view and a variety of diverse subjects.
judging the quality of opticians by what is posted is akin to judging the average american by the people who appear on jerry springer (not that i do as i have visited the USA many times and know better.):)

----------


## ikon44

> In order to pass the course you need to demonstrate what you have learned to a designated practice supervisor. And must work at least 30 hours a week in this field. I just hope that the combination of practical experience and theoretical knowledge will be a good combination. Plus I hope that this course will help me get the ABOM and NCLE-AC.


well at the worst donn if you become an abdo graduate you could certainly get a job in merrie old England !!:bbg:

----------


## Graduate

That said, many opticianry programs in Europe, including the programs in the UK and Germany, are top-notch. I have seen much of the coursework from the ABDO's program (after helping a fellow OptiBoarder with her courses), and it is extremely comprehensive and well beyond any program you are likely to see in the US short of an optometry or 4-year ophthalmic technology degree.[/QUOTE]

Darryl, I dont think it is proper to compare ABDO dispensing training with optometry or ophthalmic technology degree training. It is like comparing land to sky.;)

----------


## Graduate

> graduate there are only around 6000 registered dispensing opticians in the UK
> pop. 55 million, therefore there just are not enough people to get a decent forum. ABDO have their own forum but you have to be a member to post.
> this is why i come to optiboard there are so many different points of view and a variety of diverse subjects.
> judging the quality of opticians by what is posted is akin to judging the average american by the people who appear on jerry springer (not that i do as i have visited the USA many times and know better.):)


Robert check again if it is 600 registered DO's or 6000?

----------


## Darryl Meister

> I dont think it is proper to compare ABDO dispensing training with optometry or ophthalmic technology degree training. It is like comparing land to sky.


I'm not; I'm comparing it to anything _short_ of a 4-year degree program. And the ABDO program covers a great deal more than dispensing, as does Germany's opticianry colleges.

----------


## Graduate

> well at the worst donn if you become an abdo graduate you could certainly get a job in merrie old England !!:bbg:


Sorry but I think you are conveying wrong information. ABDO overseas course graduates are not recognized for registration to practice in UK. They have to undergo more training in UK and sit examinations there for registration to dispense.

You may please call GOC deputy registrar to confirm.

----------


## Graduate

> If you are outside the UK or Ireland then you dont have to attend the block release part of the course,everything can be done at home.


You may have to attend for 2x2 final theoretical (Ophthalmic lenses & Optics, Anatomy & Visual Optics) and 4 sections practical exams. Sounds impressive? ABDO examiners love to travel around the world at the expense of student and may agree to come to USA to invigilate if well paid. Check it out before enrolling into course.

----------


## OPTIDONN

I spoke with the ABDO and have recieved confirmation that I will not have to travel. It will all be done through internet and mail. And don't worry I won't be working in England, I think IKON was just being friendly!

----------


## Graduate

> I spoke with the ABDO and have recieved confirmation that I will not have to travel. It will all be done through internet and mail. And don't worry I won't be working in England, I think IKON was just being friendly!


Do you mean theoretical & practical through internet & mail without invigilation?
This does not sound to me ABDO

Some one said in one of thread half information can be as misleading as no information.That is why I am just trying to put proper information.I know you won't be registered in UK with your overseas ABDO qualification BTW.

----------


## OPTIDONN

Here is what Tracy Maidment, Course Administrator from ABDO told me:

"The course for overseas students is purely by distance learning. You will recieve paper or CD based coursework and will need to submit assignments to a named tutor on a weekly basis. There will be no need for you to attend the college at any time during your study. Examinations can be arranged at a local venue too.

We need you to be working a min. of 30 hours per week in optics and you must have a designated practice supervisor. This is to ensure that the practical side of your knowledge is being developed alongside the theoretical knowledge you will be gaining from the coursework."

----------


## OPTIDONN

I really don't care if I am registered in any country...I just want to learn.

----------


## Graduate

OPTIDONN
We need you to be working a min. of 30 hours per week in optics and you must have a designated practice supervisor. This is to ensure that the practical side of your knowledge is being developed alongside the theoretical knowledge you will be gaining from the coursework."[/QUOTE]

FYI your supervisor must be Fellow of the Asociation of British Dispensing Opticians and registered with the GOC.
But they may have made changes from what I learn from your post.

----------


## Graduate

> I really don't care if I am registered in any country...I just want to learn.


I love that spirit, keep it up:cheers:

----------


## OPTIDONN

> OPTIDONN
> We need you to be working a min. of 30 hours per week in optics and you must have a designated practice supervisor. This is to ensure that the practical side of your knowledge is being developed alongside the theoretical knowledge you will be gaining from the coursework."


FYI your supervisor must be Fellow of the Asociation of British Dispensing Opticians and registered with the GOC.
But they may have made changes from what I learn from your post.[/QUOTE]

They may have. I really have not seen anything that would require a person to travel here. I didn't see anything on the ABDO site but I should ask to make sure. It does sound a little too good to be true. Are you a graduate from there?

----------


## Graduate

They may have. I really have not seen anything that would require a person to travel here. I didn't see anything on the ABDO site but I should ask to make sure. It does sound a little too good to be true. Are you a graduate from there?[/QUOTE]

I am currently COMT but have been optician in past, I was involved in process of hiring opticians for my employers.Hired one FBDO from Trinidad & two ABOC.
ABOC opticians are outstanding in their optical knowledge & practice.I am thinking of firing FBDO back to his country.

----------


## OPTIDONN

They have an Honors course in Ophthalmic lenses. If I pass I would love to take it! And if the ABDO classes work out I think it would be a great companion to the ABO/ABOM. It could be something that US opticians who have decided to make this a career would really benefit from.

----------


## Rim Ranger

> They may have. I really have not seen anything that would require a person to travel here. I didn't see anything on the ABDO site but I should ask to make sure. It does sound a little too good to be true. Are you a graduate from there?


I am COMT but was in process of hiring opticians for my employers.Hired one FBDO from Trinidad & two ABOC.
ABOC opticians are outstanding in their optical knowledge & practice.I am thinking of firing FBDO back to his country.[/QUOTE]whats the opticians first name from Trinidad? I know someone from there.

From the REAL Rim Ranger:  I never said the above.  Someone is impersonating me.

----------


## Graduate

> I am COMT but was in process of hiring opticians for my employers.Hired one FBDO from Trinidad & two ABOC.
> ABOC opticians are outstanding in their optical knowledge & practice.I am thinking of firing FBDO back to his country.


whats the opticians first name from Trinidad? I know someone from there.[/QUOTE]

Administrator, how come quote that is of OPTIDONN appears with my name? Please verify if possible.

Rim his name is Mr.XYZ:D

----------


## ikon44

> Sorry but I think you are conveying wrong information. ABDO overseas course graduates are not recognized for registration to practice in UK. They have to undergo more training in UK and sit examinations there for registration to dispense.
> 
> You may please call GOC deputy registrar to confirm.


firstly, as optidonn says i was not seriously suggesting he work in England, however below is an excerpt from the GOC  website.


*Dispensing Opticians qualified outside the European Economic Area*


A person who is qualified as a dispensing optician outside the European Economic Area and who wishes to register to practise in the UK, should contact the Association of British Dispensing Opticians for information on how he/she may enter the Professional Qualifying Examination. 
Success in the Examination will enable registration to practise in the UK.

Once qualified, a person may practise as a dispensing optician, but only when he/she has registered with the GOC. Once on the register, he/she must renew his/her registration annually in order to maintain his/her license to practise.


as optidonn already would have passed the PQE from ABDO, on confirmation of this from ABDO he could register with the GOC and begin practice as a DO at once.
ABDO do not have a different standard for their overseas students from their home based ones, and an overseas graduate is not made to take further exams.
re your ABDO employee, all i will say is that to judge all members of a profession through your experience with one is a rather bizarre and absurd   point of view

----------


## Graduate

> firstly, as optidonn says i was not seriously suggesting he work in England, however below is an excerpt from the GOC website.
> 
> 
> *Dispensing Opticians qualified outside the European Economic Area* 
> 
> 
> 
> A person who is qualified as a dispensing optician outside the European Economic Area and who wishes to register to practise in the UK, should contact the Association of British Dispensing Opticians for information on how he/she may enter the Professional Qualifying Examination.
> 
> ...


You have confirmed me correct.Thank you!

----------


## ikon44

> You have confirmed me correct.Thank you!


graduate your point was that having ABDO membership would not allow an overseas graduate to practice in the uk.
my reply stated that as long as the person concerned had passed the PQE then they could practice subject to registration with the GOC. All opticians in this country have to register with the GOC not just overseas opticians/optometrsts.
any member of ABDO wether qualified here or overseas would be entitled to automatic registration without further examination.
overseas graduates who are not abdo qualified may have to take further exams before they can be registered.
so i think your original point was mistaken.

----------


## Graduate

> graduate your point was that having ABDO membership would not allow an overseas graduate to practice in the uk.
> my reply stated that as long as the person concerned had passed the PQE then they could practice subject to registration with the GOC. All opticians in this country have to register with the GOC not just overseas opticians/optometrsts.
> any member of ABDO wether qualified here or overseas would be entitled to automatic registration without further examination.
> overseas graduates who are not abdo qualified may have to take further exams before they can be registered.
> so i think your original point was mistaken.


Any one gaining FBDO qualification outside of United Kingdom are not automatically granted registration to practice dispensig in the United Kingdom.

An overseas qualified ABDO dispenser wishing to practise in UK has to further undergo one year pre registration training peroid in UK and pass GOC examinations before being granted registration to dispense.

But the course is recognised in many countries and it is a good course.
Good luck with the course:cheers:

----------


## Darryl Meister

> ABOC opticians are outstanding in their optical knowledge & practice.


Again, the ABO doesn't train opticians. Nor is it a particularly difficult certification to obtain.

----------


## Graduate

> Again, the ABO doesn't train opticians. Nor is it a particularly difficult certification to obtain.


I know ABO is a certification body.They took their courses in a community college.

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## Darryl Meister

> They took their courses in a community college


Then you're comparing your ABDO optician to an AAS optician (assuming they completed an actual ophthalmic science program) who attended college for at least two years, not simply an "ABO" optician.

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## wmcdonald

ABO/NCLE has no course requirements. It is a certification body. The requirements to sit for the exam are stiff....... 1 year of work experience and a pulse. It is not a planned program of study. It is a sign of poor preperation for Opticians across the country that only 60-65% pass these VRERY basic, entry-level exams. The British courses you wish to take will prepare you well to sit for the exam, and any other you want to take. It will not relieve you of the need to sit for the ABO and/or NCLE, which are the standard in this country. Do not think the British courses are going to be easy. If not prepared you will find yourself in difficult waters.

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## OPTIDONN

> ABO/NCLE has no course requirements. It is a certification body. The requirements to sit for the exam are stiff....... 1 year of work experience and a pulse. It is not a planned program of study. It is a sign of poor preperation for Opticians across the country that only 60-65% pass these VRERY basic, entry-level exams. The British courses you wish to take will prepare you well to sit for the exam, and any other you want to take. It will not relieve you of the need to sit for the ABO and/or NCLE, which are the standard in this country. Do not think the British courses are going to be easy. If not prepared you will find yourself in difficult waters.


You forgot that you will need a #2 pencil as well:) .

Yeah they seem pretty darn hard but I still want to try. I think that the combo of the ABDO courses as well as an ABOM might do me well in the future.

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## Darryl Meister

> I think that the combo of the ABDO courses as well as an ABOM might do me well in the future


It should be relatively easy to obtain your ABOM once you have completed the ABDO's program, which is considerably more intense than either the ABO or the ABO-AC. But keep in mind that, for reasons I have yet to comprehend, the new ABO-AC exam includes questions on business management.

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## OPTIDONN

I am terrified to take the ABO-AC so if the ABDO courses help that will be great. I hope that with structured learning it might be a little easier to understand some of the stuff as opposed to just cracking a random book.

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## Graduate

> Then you're comparing your ABDO optician to an AAS optician (assuming they completed an actual ophthalmic science program) who attended college for at least two years, not simply an "ABO" optician.


You may be correct,they are from college.

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## Darryl Meister

If you do the coursework, you should have no problems with the optics and dispensing portions of the ABO-AC exam (well, you may have to "translate" some of the terminology; Brits often use "substance" instead of "thickness," for instance).

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