# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Best lens options for different categories of patients

## stedel

*About me:* 
Hi. I'm a lab tech from Canada. I've been working in optical for just over a year.

*My Issue:* 
A few weeks ago I discovered this forum, and so far I've learnt more about  progressives here in a total of a few short hours than in the  whole past year from all other sources combined:P. Before finding this board most of the information I got about lenses came from two sources: the opticians' that I work with experience's with various lenses, and sales reps for various companies. Much of what I've been told is... conflicting, to say the least. 

Sales reps keep telling me that "digital lenses are wider than conventional!!1eleven1!!", but they can't tell me what "digital" means, nor can most of them even take a shot in the dark about what "freeform" means :Mad: . I tells ya, Essilor trains their reps well. They also tell me things like "this lens always works for everyone!" I know a sales pitch when I hear it, but I need some help getting to the truth.

*My Takeway:* 
After a few hours of reading threads about lenses and coatings and the like, here are a few things that I think I've gathered:

"Digital" doesn't mean much of anything.Essilor is evil."Freeform" can mean almost anything, and what it means depends on what company you're talking to.What freeform probably *should* mean is "the add power is ground into the lens, not molded onto the front". Close? Yes? No? Maybe? Both? Neither? Quantum superposition of all those options?Essilor is attempting to take over the world one banana stand at a time.Digital/Freeform lenses are often very narrow in the intermediate (moreso than conventional lenses?), despite the sales reps claims.If you make one part of a progressive corridor wider, you have to make other parts narrower. The area of the corridor remains the same.Essilor lenses suck.Nikon Canada (or Nikon as a whole?) uses Essilor lenses, even though their rep tells us they are better. Is this true of anyone else? Who knows... certainly not the sales reps selling the product. 

*My Problem:*
I'd say 80+% of our customers are heavy computer users (I'm told Canadians are among the worst internet addicts? I wouldn't know, with all my long hours online I don't have the time to find someone and ask), and many want a single lens with with wider intermediate that they can still drive in and read with. We sell a separate pair of computer lenses to everyone who will buy them, but some people just don't want to switch between two pairs. I'd ask sales reps what I should be selling, but they're all useless idiots.

*My Question:*
Right now we sell like 30 different lenses and I just don't see the point. It seems like each optician has their favourite lenses and pushes that lens on everybody. So I'd like a list of a lens or two that will be best for each of the following categories:
HyperopsMyopsHi addsLow addsHeavy computer users (wide intermediate) <---- nearly all our patients want wider intermediateShort corridorAn excellent computer lensA lens that's good for people who can't adapt to anything else. 

I'm gone for the weekend, so I'll check back in on Monday or Tuesday. Thanks in advance for any advice!

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## uncut

Great first post......that Saskatchewan humor, cold as it is, reallly shines through.

Advice:  Fit more trifocals.  :Wink: ......or multifocal contact lenses.

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## golfnut

I have had great success with shamir Intouch for people demanding more intermediate. Also, Icentari intermediate from central optical has done extremely well for us. I use them for a wide variety of RX'S.

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## DanLiv

> Right now we sell like 30 different lenses and I just don't see the point. It seems like each optician has their favourite lenses and pushes that lens on everybody. So I'd like a list of a lens or two that will be best for each of the following categories:
> 
> 
> Hyperops
> Myops
> Hi adds
> Low adds
> Heavy computer users (wide intermediate) <---- nearly all our patients want wider intermediate
> Short corridor
> ...



One of the most flexible designs out there right now is Zeiss Individual 2. As a fully position of wear compensated backside "freeform" design with variable corridors AND variable design to give sifferent priority to distance, computer, and near, it could take care of most your fits (since "moderately priced" wasn't one of the criteria). Certainly takes care of short corridor, wide intermediate, and can easily handle high/low adds and hyper/myopes.


I haven't had much experience with it, but for high hyperopes and with high adds, Seiko Surmount is specifically designed for such an Rx. It sure is thin too.


My general "easy fit" lens for people who are finicky is still Varilux Comfort. There is a reason that design has been so popular for so long. The DRx and Enhanced versions get you digital benefits, but it does much with the classic design. I have had conventional Comfort wearers non-adapt to both DRx and Enhanced. Put em back in conventional, everything's dandy again. I think that design is still the best overall balanced lens I've ever fit.


Computer lens? What's not to love about Auto 2 Office? Well priced too. Dunno anything about the new office and workspace coming from Shamir, but everything they make is solidly decent.

Please post more. You are hilarious. :)

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## Imran520

Thanks. These options are useful for patients to choose the lens.

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## NCspecs

> *My Problem:*
> _I'd say 80+% of our customers are heavy computer users...and many want a single lens with with wider intermediate that they can still drive in and read with..
> 
> _
> *My Question:*
> _Right now we sell like 30 different lenses and I just don't see the point. It seems like each optician has their favourite lenses and pushes that lens on everybody. So I'd like a list of a lens or two that will be best for each of the following categories_


About heavy computer users:

I always explain as succinctly as possible to these patients that they are asking a lot out of a little piece of plastic. They will be able to multi-task beautifully with their progressives but more often than not they will find themselves struggling to do something task specific for long periods of time. I stress this with first time progressive wearers...do not expect these lenses to function like 20 year old eyes. 

They don't have to get the computer or hobby specific glasses immediately, let them function a while on their own and let them come back to you when they realize you've pinpointed their needs perfectly. Works for me everytime. 


About PALS:
I know you "don't see the point" grasshopper. You are only a year in. Work anywhere else and you'll wish you had 30 different lens types at your fingertips. I can't tell you how many practices here in North Carolina use only Essilor because it saves their "Opticians" from critical thinking/problem solving. Easy just to use one (expensive) brand and not venture any farther. 

This is a post for Sharpstick777 if ever I saw one!

One of the most important things he has taught me is the difference in corridor designs. I fit lifestyles AS WELL as perscriptions based on all that I have learned from him. Search his posts on PALS, I have learned so much from him.

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## stedel

> ...I always explain as succinctly as possible to these patients that they are asking a lot out of a little piece of plastic...do not expect these lenses to function like 20 year old eyes.


That seems like good advice:). It seems like some of our customers expect us to work miracles. Unfortunately neither bionic occular implants nor Geordi`s visor exist just yet (at least not as they appear on TV), so for now they`ll just have to due with our available low tech. 



> I know you "don't see the point" grasshopper. You are only a year in.  Work anywhere else and you'll wish you had 30 different lens types at  your fingertips. I can't tell you how many practices here in North  Carolina use only Essilor because it saves their "Opticians" from  critical thinking/problem solving. Easy just to use one (expensive)  brand and not venture any farther.


Ok:). I don`t see the point, but I`ll certainly acknowledge that my lack of perception (haha) may well be due to ignorance.



> This is a post for Sharpstick777 if ever I saw one!
> One of the most important things he has taught me is the difference in corridor designs. I fit lifestyles AS WELL as perscriptions based on all that I have learned from him. Search his posts on PALS, I have learned so much from him.


I`ve seen a few of his posts, and they`re fantastic! Speaking of corridor designs, that was among my first questions when I started ordering progressives. I`ve yet to be satisfied with the answers people have given me. Hopefully someone here can enlighten me on this subject... and many others as well.

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## stedel

So far recommendations are as follows:

*Intermediate:* shamir Intouch
*General Use:* Zeiss Individual 2
*Hypers:* Seiko Surmount
*Conventional:* Varilux Comfort
*Computer:* Auto 2 Office

I have a few questions and comments about those lenses:).

*Intermediate:* shamir Intouch -- We don`t currently sell Shamir lenses. I don`t suppose anyone has another recommendation?
*General Use:* Zeiss Individual 2 --We already sell this occasionally, but we don`t have a Zeiss terminal to do all the measurements. Is one really necessary?
*Hypers:* Seiko Surmount -- I just found a supplier that I like for this lens. I`ll give our impression of this lens once we have more experience with it.
*Conventional:* Varilux Comfort -- Essilor stopped supplying this lens to us. They only make DS and 360 versions now. I assume it still available through 3rd party labs?
*Computer:* Auto 2 Office -- Another Shamir lens:(.

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## Fezz

> That seems like good advice:). 
> 
> I`ve seen a few of his posts, and they`re fantastic! Speaking of corridor designs, that was among my first questions when I started ordering progressives. I`ve yet to be satisfied with the answers people have given me. Hopefully someone here can enlighten me on this subject... and many others as well.



Lots of good corridor education in this thread!

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...raph-II-Fitter

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## NCspecs

> I`ve seen a few of his posts, and they`re fantastic! Speaking of corridor designs, that was among my first questions when I started ordering progressives. I`ve yet to be satisfied with the answers people have given me. Hopefully someone here can enlighten me on this subject... and many others as well.



I wish I could buy you a beer and set you down for a spell. I think you and I are like minded, cut the BS, tell me WHY it works. :)

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## Fezz

http://www.opticampus.com/cecourse.p...essive_lenses/

http://www.optometry.co.uk/uploads/a...13-c-33557.pdf

http://www.opticampus.com/files/fund...ive_lenses.pdf

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## EyeCare Rich

In an earlier post you said,  "*General Use:* Zeiss Individual 2 --We already sell this occasionally, but we don`t have a Zeiss terminal to do all the measurements. Is one really necessary?"  

The answer is, no.  You don't have to have the ITerminal to fit this lens.  You don't even have to do point of wear (POW) measurements to fit the lens.  You can do manual measurements using tools provided by Zeiss, or any other lens company doing POW measurements.  You don't however get everything possible vision wise without POW measurements on this lens, and a couple others out there.  The design is sufficient to be a pretty darn good lens without those POW measurements though.  Great questions Stedel!!!  Welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the ride on OptiBoard.  Lot's to learn here, with a good sence of humor, you will go far!!!!  Just ask Johns!

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## ChrisinNH

I see there is a Sheedy Report from 2006...is there some kind of newer version of this report or one someone else did that may be of assistance in picking a lens?

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## Robert Martellaro

> I see there is a Sheedy Report from 2006...is there some kind of newer version of this report or one someone else did that may be of assistance in picking a lens?


This may help. http://www.thelensguru.com/index.php/maps.html




> *My Takeway:* 
> After a few hours of reading threads about lenses and coatings and the like, here are a few things that I think I've gathered:
> 
> "Digital" doesn't mean much of anything.Essilor is evil."Freeform" can mean almost anything, and what it means depends on what company you're talking to.What freeform probably *should* mean is "the add power is ground into the lens, not molded onto the front". Close? Yes? No? Maybe? Both? Neither? Quantum superposition of all those options?Essilor is attempting to take over the world one banana stand at a time.Digital/Freeform lenses are often very narrow in the intermediate (moreso than conventional lenses?), despite the sales reps claims.If you make one part of a progressive corridor wider, you have to make other parts narrower. The area of the corridor remains the same.Essilor lenses suck.Nikon Canada (or Nikon as a whole?) uses Essilor lenses, even though their rep tells us they are better. Is this true of anyone else? Who knows... certainly not the sales reps selling the product.


YesNo.It's a manufacturing platform.No. Think of it like error correction on optical disc drives.Something like that.No.http://www.opticampus.com/files/prog...presbyopia.pdfNo.http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...l=1#post472027



> *
> My Problem:*
> I'd say 80+% of our customers are heavy computer users (I'm told Canadians are among the worst internet addicts? I wouldn't know, with all my long hours online I don't have the time to find someone and ask), and many want a single lens with with wider intermediate that they can still drive in and read with. We sell a separate pair of computer lenses to everyone who will buy them, but some people just don't want to switch between two pairs. I'd ask sales reps what I should be selling, but they're all useless idiots.


Use a 'computer' lens, not an 'office' lens, that is, a multifocal lens with the distance set for monitor distance, the near for the desktop.




> *My Question:*
> Right now we sell like 30 different lenses and I just don't see the point. It seems like each optician has their favourite lenses and pushes that lens on everybody. So I'd like a list of a lens or two that will be best for each of the following categories:
> HyperopsMyopsHi addsLow addsHeavy computer users (wide intermediate) <---- nearly all our patients want wider intermediateShort corridorAn excellent computer lensA lens that's good for people who can't adapt to anything else.
> 
> I'm gone for the weekend, so I'll check back in on Monday or Tuesday. Thanks in advance for any advice!


Hyperopes need slight softer boundaries, longer corridors, an slightly wider near zone width. Myopes need slight harder boundaries and slightly shorter corridors. This is due to object displacement from prismatic effects, and from magnification/minification.

Hope this helps,

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## optical24/7

Robert nailed your questions. Also, read everything Robert writes!

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## sharpstick777

> I'd like a list of a lens or two that will be best for each of the following categories:
> HyperopsMyopsHi addsLow addsHeavy computer users (wide intermediate) <---- nearly all our patients want wider intermediateShort corridorAn excellent computer lensA lens that's good for people who can't adapt to anything else.
> 
> I'm gone for the weekend, so I'll check back in on Monday or Tuesday. Thanks in advance for any advice!


*Hyperops:*  Seiko Surmount, Zeiss Individual 2, Definity  (only the Surmount and Individual offer fully free-form optomized corridors in the US, Zeiss will hold an edge in higher Hyperopes because its more adaptive and allows slightly higher BC in high plus powers, as it goes to dual add)
*Myopes:*   Most lenses are optimized for low myopes, so its fairly easy.  For high Myopes the Auto III, Seiko Superecede, Zeiss Individual, Shaw Lens, Stealth PRO HD, and Ice-Tech.  
*Hi adds:*  Harder designs:  for wider corridors: Surmount WS, iD/Lifestyle, Supercede, not as hard but the Definity is decent.  For better distance:   Zeiss Individual, Shaw Lens, Stealth HD, Shamir Spectrum, the Auto series will provide good distance and low distortion in high adds, but the corridor does narrow more than other, must pair with Office type lens.
*Low adds:* Softer designs: Shamir InTouch, Zeiss Choice, Seiko Succeed, Autograph Series
*Heavy computer users (wide intermediate)* <---- nearly all our patients want wider intermediate:                               Seiko Surmount is often 4-8X wider in the intermediate than most progressives. 
*Short corridor. *  Any lens that has multiple corridor or variable fitting options, (like 14,16,18, 20) All newer Free-form Zeiss, Seiko and Shamir adapt well to shorter corridors, MUST be 100% Free-form, HYBRID Lenses do NOT do well in shorter corridors.  lenses with only 2 fitting heights do not do as well.
*An excellent computer lens:*  Shamir Office /Desktop,  Seiko PC Wide, Zeiss has new options but I have not tried them.
*A lens that's good for people who can't adapt to anything else:*   The Seiko Surmount with its reverse geometry design often works with spacial distortions, as does the Autograph series due to its very low distortion and soft design.  *Prism?*   iD Lifestyle, Definity, Surmount * Large Reading:  Stealth Plus or Stealth Pro RD                                                                                     Aniseikonia and Anisometropia:  The Shaw Lens   (ps, server is not allowing me to edit this well)*

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## sharpstick777

> Digital/Freeform lenses are often very narrow in the intermediate (moreso than conventional lenses?), despite the sales reps claims.If you make one part of a progressive corridor wider, you have to make other parts narrower. The area of the corridor remains the same.Essilor lenses suck!


1.  That is due to 2 major reasons.  When progressives first launched they competed against the ST-28, so they often kept the reading wider, at the cost of the intermediate, because computers were simply not widely used then.  Today, most lenses are distance emphasized, which means the reading and intermediate is narrower.  Most T and Hourglass shaped designs will have VERY narrow intermediate zones as result.  The second reason is that as add power goes up, the lens either must get harder or the reading will narrow.  Most manufacturers choose a little harder, and little loss of reading width today.  2.  yes, its also more true in higher adds and shorter corridors   3. I have been very disappointed in Essilors recent lens releases, but I have no doubt that they will make improvements in the future.

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## Happylady

Definity lenses have wide intermediates compared to many other progressives. One of the best things computer users can do is lower their monitors.  If someone is having to raise her chin to see the computer, the monitor is too high! 

Problem with above-most monitors don't adjust up and down.  They should but they don't.

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## jonadonis

By far the most intelligent question I have ever heard an optician ask!  My answer ignores all the new digital and freeform labels and hits the basics of PAL Magic. Please read my article at:   http://jutwald.com/2013/08/07/op-blog-3-pal-selection/  Thanks,

Jonadonis

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## Happylady

> By far the most intelligent question I have ever heard an optician ask!  My answer ignores all the new digital and freeform labels and hits the basics of PAL Magic. Please read my article at:   http://jutwald.com/2013/08/07/op-blog-3-pal-selection/  Thanks,
> 
> Jonadonis


Interesting but I'm a little confused. You place lenses in different groups based on corridor length but you also mention the corrections. So for corrections over -7, the only lens you would use is the Autograph 2? Am I reading this correctly?

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## jonadonis

Close!  Please name for me a list of your favorite lenses that have a  minimum fitting height of 12 mm.  Any of them would work well on a -7  patient.  Fit normally, the reading section will be in the right place  with an ultra short lens.  She would hate a Comfort or Y image because  the reading area will be in the basement.  On the other extreme, if her  hubby walked in the door a +3, he would love the Y image because, fit  normally, the reading section is exactly in the right place.  For him,  it also takes a bigger B measure.  He would hate the short lens because  it has no intermediate range (in his Px).  
Allow me to logic this a  little differently.  If we can get any corridor length we want between  12 and 26, why do we put people in short corridor lenses?  To fit  smaller frames?  Not me!  Then why don't we put everybody in short  lenses?   Because it does not work optically.  High plus? Long lens.  20  deg panto.  A little extra vertex just magnifies more.  High minus?   Short lens, little panto, little vertex.  There are reasons for the exceptions.  Thanks for reading.

jonadonis

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## Happylady

Interesting ideas, but I've had very good success with short corridor lenses, even fit at 19 or 20 high. One of my personal  favorites is the Physio Short and I have fit with on both + and - corrections.

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## jonadonis

> Interesting ideas, but I've had very good success with short corridor lenses, even fit at 19 or 20 high. One of my personal  favorites is the Physio Short and I have fit with on both + and - corrections.


I agree, sort of.  Personally I have successfully worn a Physio Short.  My Px is +0.75 with a 2.25 add. I would use the same lens for a patient with Px -1.00, 2.25 add. The relevant fact is, the Phys St. is not a short lens.  It is a mid length lens just like the Nav Short, the Definity Short, the Seiko Proceed II and the Precise Short, as it says in my article.  I fit them at 18 all day.  All of these are shorter than Comforts, Adaptars and Images.  Does that make them short? No.  A COSE soft 14 is a short lens.  A Sh Att III 12 is a short lens.  A Zeiss GT2 Short is a moderately short lens.  

Thanks,

jonadonis

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## mervinek

> Definity lenses have wide intermediates compared to many other progressives. One of the best things computer users can do is lower their monitors.  If someone is having to raise her chin to see the computer, the monitor is too high! 
> 
> Problem with above-most monitors don't adjust up and down.  They should but they don't.


+1  I feel like I need to have that tattooed on my forehead!  Lower your monitor or raise your seat with progressive usage!

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## stedel

I'm just going through a Seiko pricebook right now and determining selling prices and such for the various lenses we're going to sell, and I came across the Seiko Supernal. Does anyone know what type of person that lens is targeted toward? The marketing material that came with the pricebook suggests that it crosses over with or replaces the Surmount, but I don't trust PR :Tongue: .

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## stedel

> *Hyperops:*  Seiko Surmount, Zeiss Individual 2, Definity  (only the Surmount and Individual offer fully free-form optomized corridors in the US, Zeiss will hold an edge in higher Hyperopes because its more adaptive and allows slightly higher BC in high plus powers, as it goes to dual add)
> *Myopes:*   Most lenses are optimized for low myopes, so its fairly easy.  For high Myopes the Auto III, Seiko Superecede, Zeiss Individual, Shaw Lens, Stealth PRO HD, and Ice-Tech.  
> *Hi adds:*  Harder designs:  for wider corridors: Surmount WS, iD/Lifestyle, Supercede, not as hard but the Definity is decent.  For better distance:   Zeiss Individual, Shaw Lens, Stealth HD, Shamir Spectrum, the Auto series will provide good distance and low distortion in high adds, but the corridor does narrow more than other, must pair with Office type lens.
> *Low adds:* Softer designs: Shamir InTouch, Zeiss Choice, Seiko Succeed, Autograph Series
> *Heavy computer users (wide intermediate)* <---- nearly all our patients want wider intermediate:                               Seiko Surmount is often 4-8X wider in the intermediate than most progressives. 
> *Short corridor. *  Any lens that has multiple corridor or variable fitting options, (like 14,16,18, 20) All newer Free-form Zeiss, Seiko and Shamir adapt well to shorter corridors, MUST be 100% Free-form, HYBRID Lenses do NOT do well in shorter corridors.  lenses with only 2 fitting heights do not do as well.
> *An excellent computer lens:*  Shamir Office /Desktop,  Seiko PC Wide, Zeiss has new options but I have not tried them.
> *A lens that's good for people who can't adapt to anything else:*   The Seiko Surmount with its reverse geometry design often works with spacial distortions, as does the Autograph series due to its very low distortion and soft design.  *Prism?*   iD Lifestyle, Definity, Surmount * Large Reading:  Stealth Plus or Stealth Pro RD                                                                                     Aniseikonia and Anisometropia:  The Shaw Lens   (ps, server is not allowing me to edit this well)*


We sell Essilor lenses as well, and we're going to keep selling them for various reasons. Here's my guess as to what Essilor lens goes into each of those categories:

*Hyperops: ???* (Comfort 360 maybe?)
*Myopes:* Physio 360 (is this the same as Physio DXr btw? I haven't seen that lens as an option before)
*Hi adds:* ???
*Low adds:* Ovation ADS (Ovation DS in the US I think)
*Heavy computer users (wide intermediate)*: ???
*Short corridor:* Ellipse 360
*Computer lens:* Computer DS
*Non-adapts:* Ovation (conventional)

As you can see, there are some big blanks in my guesses. Can anyone help?

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## Mr.Powers

My "Shotguns" are Autograf II and Seiko Supercede.  Autograf Works for allmost all.  Seiko is for the High Hyperope

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## Caroline

How come no one talks about Nikon lenses? I've recently started using them and really like the Presio Power and so do my patients. Comments?

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## Mr.Powers

Never used Nikon tell me about them what is so great about them ?

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## Britt8701

Hope you soak in all that info it will give you a leg up. As well as speed up the learning curve.

Few bits of advice: 
Never stop learning this field is EVER-Evolving.
A young Optician with a sponge for information is better than a 30-year vet with a closed mind.
Also never doubt yourself your confidence will ensure patient compliance which is over half the battle.

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## Caroline

I'm a first-time progressive wearer and when I got them, I kept looking around for the distortion. I couldn't see any. Then I got a pair of Hoya Summit CD iQ and if I turned my head a little bit each way, it blurred out. Just my $0.02, but my patients are really happy and so am I. I've fit plenty of Varilux products in the past, never wore them before, and patients were happy with those, too.

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## Britt8701

Shamir has a new Autograph III(variable) out with a truly distortion free design, you will have to spend more time deciding with of the variable designs will fit your patients lifestyle. However it leads the way for 2014. There is no one answer for lens selection however the Autograph III(variable) will give you the widest array of options to customize. I usually wouldn't fit in the Shamir family however I must say that I've been blown away with the response from the lens. However I'm not a PAL wearer, I cant give you a first hand perspective.

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## jpways

> Shamir has a new Autograph III(variable) out with a truly distortion free design, you will have to spend more time deciding with of the variable designs will fit your patients lifestyle. However it leads the way for 2014. There is no one answer for lens selection however the Autograph III(variable) will give you the widest array of options to customize. I usually wouldn't fit in the Shamir family however I must say that I've been blown away with the response from the lens. However I'm not a PAL wearer, I cant give you a first hand perspective.


We use the Auto III too but to call it distortion free is a misstatement of the facts.  I doubt there will ever be a truly distortion free progressive lens (I doubt that it's even possible to develop under our current knowledge of lens design). The Auto III has less distortion then the Auto II and is up there with with the top lenses in minimizing distortion, but to call it distortion free is wrong

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## Mr.Powers

> The Auto III has less distortion then the Auto II and is up there with with the top lenses in minimizing distortion, but to call it distortion free is wrong


what is the top lenses, iyo ?

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## jpways

Hoya's ID Mystyle (but the difference between the Autograph III and the Mystyle is not that great)

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## Mr.Powers

realy, first time i hear someone who like hoya top products. but great to hear.

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## Golfnorth

> Hoya's ID Mystyle (but the difference between the Autograph III and the Mystyle is not that great)


I second the Hoya ID Mystyle! Haven't tried the Autograph III

Regards,
Golfnorth

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## madcapzany

> I'm a first-time progressive wearer and when I got them, I kept looking around for the distortion. I couldn't see any. Then I got a pair of Hoya Summit CD iQ and if I turned my head a little bit each way, it blurred out. Just my $0.02, but my patients are really happy and so am I. I've fit plenty of Varilux products in the past, never wore them before, and patients were happy with those, too.


Hi there! Would you say which lenses you found to have the least distortion? 
Every rep claims theirs is the best, and the demos always look great, no matter what!
Which one worked for you before you tried the Hoya lenses?

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## lightbender27

For Computer: Try a Access or a Perfecta Professional
General: This is older but we used Kodak Unique and everyone loved them, Perfecta's are a great newer option.

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## m0002a

> *Hyperops:*  Seiko Surmount, Zeiss Individual 2, Definity  (only the Surmount and Individual offer fully free-form optomized corridors in the US, Zeiss will hold an edge in higher Hyperopes because its more adaptive and allows slightly higher BC in high plus powers, as it goes to dual add)


Does anyone have an opinion on whether Hoya Mystyle is also good for Hyperops, especially in the higher powers (+5.00 or so with 2.50 add) ?

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## sharpstick777

Essilor is not at the high point of the their technology curve, the "S" has an enormous non-adapt rate (see other posts) and most of their other lenses are Hourglass shapes which don't offer clear edge to edge in any one zone.  Hourglass shapes even if Free-form are general purpose lenses, that will not usually score the best in a specific category but will do OK in most of them (Except intermediate, the Comfort has terrible intermediate).

Their widest lens is the Physio DRx but that has a LONG adaptation time (also covered in other posts).

I have no interest in you stopping selling Essilor, but you are extremely limiting yourself by choosing only one brand.  Its like being on the golf course with only a 5,6, or 7 iron.  Even if I have the best in the world of those 3 clubs, even a cheap putter would do better on the greens, and cheap drive off the Tee.   Most manufacturers don't create designs that are widely different from each other, yet God created patients who are.





> We sell Essilor lenses as well, and we're going to keep selling them for various reasons. Here's my guess as to what Essilor lens goes into each of those categories:
> 
> *Hyperops: ???* (Comfort 360 maybe?)
> *Myopes:* Physio 360 (is this the same as Physio DXr btw? I haven't seen that lens as an option before)
> *Hi adds:* ???
> *Low adds:* Ovation ADS (Ovation DS in the US I think)
> *Heavy computer users (wide intermediate)*: ???
> *Short corridor:* Ellipse 360
> *Computer lens:* Computer DS
> ...

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## sharpstick777

> Hi there! Would you say which lenses you found to have the least distortion?


Given the same add power, the lens with the narrowest reading and the longest corridor will provide the lowest peak distortion.   Its a function of opposing choices even in Free-form.

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## sharpstick777

> How come no one talks about Nikon lenses? I've recently started using them and really like the Presio Power and so do my patients. Comments?


Nikon is half Essilor product that is rebranded (They do have some slight differentiation) but its hard to figure out where.

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## sharpstick777

> I'm just going through a Seiko pricebook right now and determining selling prices and such for the various lenses we're going to sell, and I came across the Seiko Supernal. Does anyone know what type of person that lens is targeted toward? The marketing material that came with the pricebook suggests that it crosses over with or replaces the Surmount, but I don't trust PR.


The Supernal is very much like the Shamir InTouch but a slightly harder design in most RXs.  Its 2 part intermediate, the top is great for Cel phones and Tablets the lower is for PCs,  both these lenses drop distance below the 180, are good for first time wearers, but require a min of 16 mm seg or you crush the PC zone.  Fit both on Center.  I give a slight nod to the InTouch for low power myopes, and to the Supernal for hyperopes.  Both are designed for active Presbyopes, and work well in larger frames.  (think Hipster lenses)

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## NCspecs

Sharpstick, ever since I've made your aquaintence my non-adapts have become virtually non-existent. Your gracious attention to my questions have made me a much better Optican. 

Fitting different brands and styles of lenses (not just PALS) comfortably is what separates a sales person from an excellent Optician. I'm also incredibly lucky to work for ODs that bring patients to my dispensing table and say, "Okay, Pt is a low hyperope, likes to craft and facebook, what do YOU recommend?" hand me a chart, and let me do what I need to do. 

To all the newbies and "good, better, and best package" sellers- do your research and remember there is no magic bullet for all patients. Know your math, know your patients, and you'll get great results when you really apply your knowledge successfully. :)

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## stedel

Thanks sharpstick:). Your replies have been very helpful to me, especially with new products that we hadn't sold before.

I've been asking everyone I can what *their* particular progressive looks like to them (mostly people in Essilor products, and a few Seikos now that we're selling them), and a few of the things you've said have tied together the comments people have made:

*1)* People have been saying Physio 360 lenses are very sharp in the distance compared to other lenses they've tried. If that lens is a "T" design as you've said in other posts (not on this thread, I think), and if a narrow reading and longish corridor makes lenses sharper, that would make sense to me.

*2)* Our Ovat/ADS tends to be the lens that we get the least non-adapts from. I think this is for two reasons: i) we've been selling it for a while so the licenses know the ins and outs of fitting the lens, and ii) it's a standard hourglass shape lens, so it's an acceptable balanced lens for most people, even though it doesn't stand out well in any given area, unlike newer, more expensive lenses.

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## sharpstick777

> Sharpstick, ever since I've made your aquaintence my non-adapts have become virtually non-existent. Your gracious attention to my questions have made me a much better Optican. 
> 
>  :)


Thanks so much for the kind words!  Its very encouraging.

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## Nobody77

> *My Takeway:* 
> After a few hours of reading threads about lenses and coatings and the like, here are a few things that I think I've gathered:
> 
> "Digital" doesn't mean much of anything.Essilor is evil."Freeform" can mean almost anything, and what it means depends on what company you're talking to.What freeform probably *should* mean is "the add power is ground into the lens, not molded onto the front". Close? Yes? No? Maybe? Both? Neither? Quantum superposition of all those options?Essilor is attempting to take over the world one banana stand at a time.Digital/Freeform lenses are often very narrow in the intermediate (moreso than conventional lenses?), despite the sales reps claims.If you make one part of a progressive corridor wider, you have to make other parts narrower. The area of the corridor remains the same.Essilor lenses suck.Nikon Canada (or Nikon as a whole?) uses Essilor lenses, even though their rep tells us they are better. Is this true of anyone else? Who knows... certainly not the sales reps selling the product.
> 
> *My Problem:*
> I'd say 80+% of our customers are heavy computer users (I'm told Canadians are among the worst internet addicts? I wouldn't know, with all my long hours online I don't have the time to find someone and ask), and many want a single lens with with wider intermediate that they can still drive in and read with. We sell a separate pair of computer lenses to everyone who will buy them, but some people just don't want to switch between two pairs. I'd ask sales reps what I should be selling, but they're all useless idiots.
> 
> *My Question:*
> ...


1. Digital is only a way to tell you the lens "could" be pixel exact calculated (not produced)
2. Against the opinion of Robert :) Yes. But to be fair, they are not that evil, they are just not so innovative and coat old designs with new marketing names to provide you with "new" (but not really) products.
3. Only a manufacturing platform, everyone is using it, but its not THE thing, the calculation of the Lens is the important thing. (As in all Taxi drivers drive a car, but it's their driving skill that makes you enjoy the ride or not).
4. FreeForm... Think of it as a more exact tool... You may paint a great painting using a big wall brush, but if I give you a fine brush for painting small models, I give you a more fine/exact way to give your painting way more detail. So to put this into a lens, you can cover the lens surface and its required diopters way more exact than with the conventional technology used XX years ago.
5. Well Yes :)
6. No, depends on the Lens and prescription. Problem you get often is, the person who used conventional lenses for X years comes back and you convince them to buy a new "Digital" (call it what ever you like) lens. Some may come back with the complaint that the reading portion is more narrow than with the old lens. Usually this has more to do with the Addition change than the design change. Going from Add 1 to Add 2 or 2.5 will significantly reduce usable reading width.
7. Well talking about the very same design, yes. If you would increase the reading width of design X, its distance would suffer a loss. You could yet create a new lens, which may give you a better performance in an area and keep the good areas of the design X, but yeah overall you often have to trade X for Y.
8. While I like Hoya more, many customers were happy with Essilor lenses. Then again, many of us will be happy driving "any car" but if we could choose, you may start noticing that people tend to pick a certain brand.
9. Sadly I can't give you a 100% answer on this, but surely it was mentioned here by someone else :)


To your question, the best recommendation I can give you is this... 

"Every client is different and what may suit one, may not suit the other. Listen and engage in talks about what they need the new glasses for, what they expect and their habits. Their prescription and previous experience is also very important"

There is general rules, which may help you decide on your way in picking the best lens your client will get the most benefits from and it does not always have to be the most expensive one either. Older designs will perform worse with new frames as they are were "designed" for "back then" frames with higher pantoscopic tilt etc. Heavy computer users may benefit from an occupational lens, which will provide around 4 times as wide intermediate part than a PAL and twice the reading width (give or take depending on the lenses you compare). 

There is just so many things that could influence the Lens choice itself :)

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## Bey Patrick

Can ANYONE!!! Send me some surfacing charts...

I am training a new employee and I really need to provide them with some steady info.
I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP  :Redface:

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