# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Your preferred freeform lenses?

## Ecliptic

I'm only 25 years old (been an optician for 5 years), so I cannot test progressive lenses to really get an idea of what I'm dispensing.

That being said, I've recently been dispensing a lot of Kodak Unique freeform lenses (especially since they come with Kodak CleAR and VSP doesn't charge extra for it due to the fact that it is "built in" to the lenses).

However, I'm always trying to figure out what the best and brightest is for my patients. My options are: Kodak unique, Shamir Autograph, Sola HDV, Varliux physio 360, and the Gradal Individual (though I'm inclined against the gradal due to the month-long turn around).

What are your experiences with the above lenses... and beyond that have you tried the first 4? Is one better than another for certain rx's or patients? or is one better overall for everyone?

I have browsed around the forums and haven't really found something really decisive in this regard.


Thanks

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## Ecliptic

also... anyone heard anything about the new VSP specific lenses ?  (Reveal and reveal freeform)?

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## optigrrl

> also... anyone heard anything about the new VSP specific lenses ? (Reveal and reveal freeform)?


 
Private label product. VSP trying to "corral" business since they are getting into the lab industry.

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## optigrrl

> I'm only 25 years old (been an optician for 5 years), so I cannot test progressive lenses to really get an idea of what I'm dispensing.
> 
> That being said, I've recently been dispensing a lot of Kodak Unique freeform lenses (especially since they come with Kodak CleAR and VSP doesn't charge extra for it due to the fact that it is "built in" to the lenses).
> 
> However, I'm always trying to figure out what the best and brightest is for my patients. My options are: Kodak unique, Shamir Autograph, Sola HDV, Varliux physio 360, and the Gradal Individual (though I'm inclined against the gradal due to the month-long turn around).
> 
> What are your experiences with the above lenses... and beyond that have you tried the first 4? Is one better than another for certain rx's or patients? or is one better overall for everyone?
> 
> I have browsed around the forums and haven't really found something really decisive in this regard.
> ...


Sola HDV is nice, so is the Shamir Autograph. Alot of offices use the Unique but when I ask about it the opticians don't seem wow'd by it so I guess it's ok.

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## john-atlanta

Autograph II is new and seems to be an improved design over the original autograph (which I thought was only ok).  Remember that ALL back surface progressives must pay a royalty to Seiko/Pentax which patented the design.  Therefore, you may want to consider the Pentax Perfas and Seiko Succeed (is that the right name?).

Of the new digital designs, only the Autograph II has variable corridor AND variable inset, which can come in handy with some patients.  

Had decent luck with the Unique, which Craig on the board loves.

The big question is, does everyone need digital?  

We have had fantastic success with the Shamir Creation and Piccolo, but I believe the digital lenses have a place, especially in high cyl, high lens inset and short B measurement frames.

I am confused about the Unique for VSP.  Are you saying that for the $119 charge, the patient gets the lens and the ARC?  I thought you had to charge the $119 and the CleAR was the first of a new premium ARC class that we charged differently from ARC A, B and C.  

Any insights would be great!!



John

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## Ecliptic

it's 119 total.  at least for my lab it is.  When i get on VSP and pick the unique lenses the A/R is not listed on the lens itself.  When you get to the screen where you actually input codes and prices, the A/R is also not listed there... however, when you send the order to the lab, they automatically put the A/R on the lens.

This, as opposed to say the thin and lite 1.74 sv lens... which also comes with A/R automatically.  When you select the lens in VSP it lists it with the crizal alize, and when you get to the code input screen the A/R is on that screen.

I called VSP asking about it specifically and they said if it isn't separated, then the patient shouldn't be charged for it  :Eek: .

Thanks for the replies btw ;).  My lab guy likes the unique and HDv and says hes only heard great stuff about the autograph... but hasn't had enough experience with it yet.

Maybe i'll try out some autograph 2's ;)

Anyone else with input?

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## Fezz

> The big question is, does everyone need digital? 
> 
> We have had fantastic success with the Shamir Creation and Piccolo, but _I believe the digital lenses have a place, especially in high cyl, high lens inset and short B measurement frames_.
> 
> John


 
This has been one of my complaints with free-form. The times that I have tried with higher power, cyls, etc, the lab had issues. I have been told the issues are because of high power, high cyl, blah, blah, boring, blah. But, they suggest I send more work in lower powers so they can show me how great free-form is.  :Rolleyes: 

Well, I thought the benefits were more noticeable in higher cyls, powers, etc?   :Cool:

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## Freedom

In freeform Pals ... It nearly performance in the nearly cost ... in normal Rx.

If high astig ... esp. oblique axis ... if used premium freeform Pals will better.



If you need to test lens performance by yourself. .... you can ... BY

1. you order Pals lens that you want to test it ... from your Rx. 
with add 2.50 D.

2. you instill topical clycoplegic agent (cyclopentolate 1%,1 drop) to reduce ciliary muscle worker ... you will not accommodation. 
then you will can't see letter at 40 cm.

3. wear your Pals glasses and TRY IT.

Good Luck.

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## HarryChiling

> In freeform Pals ... It nearly performance in the nearly cost ... in normal Rx.
> 
> If high astig ... esp. oblique axis ... if used premium freeform Pals will better.
> 
> 
> 
> If you need to test lens performance by yourself. .... you can ... BY
> 
> 1. you order Pals lens that you want to test it ... from your Rx. 
> ...


Opticians don't have pharmacology privledges in the US an d frankly shouldn't, plus if you are to use cycloplegics you should always check the angles before instilling drops or risk blinding the patient or yourself, plus what if there is a reaction to the drugs.

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## xiaowei

> This has been one of my complaints with free-form. The times that I have tried with higher power, cyls, etc, the lab had issues. I have been told the issues are because of high power, high cyl, blah, blah, boring, blah. But, they suggest I send more work in lower powers so they can show me how great free-form is. 
> 
> Well, I thought the benefits were more noticeable in higher cyls, powers, etc?


Hmm, maybe this is not really a contradiction. Non-freeform will only use it´s standard design from a list based on the "group" your description is in, without any further feed-back, you get what you get.

In freeform, as any particular design is/should be individually calculated, at least the lab will see how good or bad it will come out (surface astigmatism and power error, in theory) and probably they are only more honest in the case of high cyls and powers.

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## IndianaOD

> Opticians don't have pharmacology privledges in the US an d frankly shouldn't, plus if you are to use cycloplegics you should always check the angles before instilling drops or risk blinding the patient or yourself, plus what if there is a reaction to the drugs.


The other problem is that the mydriasis will induce aberrations from increased peripheral rays.  This would NOT be a good test for comparing PALs.

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## AdmiralKnight

We use the Seiko Supercede as our main freeform lens. It's got a very low minimum fitting hight at 14, which makes it quite versitile,  and more often than not, I've had patients discribe them as feeling like they're not wearing progressives at all.

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## Freedom

HarryChiling and IndianaOD ... Thank you for your advice and suggestion.

For my suggestion about use drug to test Pals.
I think ... It only way for 25 year old people that need to test Pals.

I think ... NOT used mydiasis agent because the main effect is for
dilate pupil by stimulating the iris dilator muscle and/or paralyzing the iris sphincter muscle. That may be generate to acute angle clouser GLAUCOMA. THAT RISK RISK and RISK

I think ... the clycoplegic agent is the main acting is to ciliary body relax
but have the secondary acting to mydriasis too. That may be generate
to acute angle clouser GLAUCOMA. THAT RISK RISK and RISK TOO.
BUT I think ... it less RISK than mydiasis agent.

Then ... If need to used ... should be used UNDER ophthalmologist.

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## john-atlanta

Seiko/Pentax owns the patents on back surface freeform progressives, so all the other companies that do a back surface only pay them a royalty.  They seem to have a good price point too.  Having said that, I think the Autograph II is the most sophisticated design right now.

J





> We use the Seiko Supercede as our main freeform lens. It's got a very low minimum fitting hight at 14, which makes it quite versitile,  and more often than not, I've had patients discribe them as feeling like they're not wearing progressives at all.

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## IndianaOD

> HarryChiling and IndianaOD ... Thank you for your advice and suggestion.
> 
> For my suggestion about use drug to test Pals.
> I think ... It only way for 25 year old people that need to test Pals.
> 
> I think ... NOT used mydiasis agent because the main effect is for
> dilate pupil by stimulating the iris dilator muscle and/or paralyzing the iris sphincter muscle. That may be generate to acute angle clouser GLAUCOMA. THAT RISK RISK and RISK
> 
> I think ... the clycoplegic agent is the main acting is to ciliary body relax
> ...


Under an ophthalmologist OR OPTOMETRIST thank you!

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## chip anderson

Indiana:  
The man is in Thailand, they may not even know what an OD is in his part of the world.  Remember it's only been a short time that O.D.'s had drug capablilities here.
And of course, you forgot to mention dentist, some PHD's and others that have the exhaultedness here to prescribe and administer drugs.

Chip

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## allanon

Someone is eating their shorts on that Kodak Unique.  The ARC on the Unique is a special lens option.

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## MarcE

> Someone is eating their shorts on that Kodak Unique. The ARC on the Unique is a special lens option.


Al, you are right.  I just saw it on the dropdown menu on VSP.  May not always have been that way, but it was yesterday.  Special lens = special price = special holdbacks.

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## john-atlanta

Straight from VSP, whom I just hung up with.   

If you are talking about the new Clean N' Clear, the ENTIRE job is supposed to go through your private lab and you use the special lens procedure.  To calculate the patient cost, calculate your U&C for the lens PLUS the AR, subtract 20% and then subtract your progressive allowance and dispensing fee.  There is NO chargeback, because you have to pay the lab.  Goto Eyefinity -> VSP online -> Special lens calculator (on top left), enter your U&C and progressive dispensing fee.  Not sure what it is, call VSP.

Certain additional information has to be added to box 19, etc.  You almost have to call them on every single one of these jobs and it seems like enough of a PIA that I would be inclined to avoid it for that reason alone:hammer:.

Here is the email from VSP on the two different Kodak AR's I was asking them about.



Kodak CleAR (Signet Armorlite) 
Anti-Reflective Coating C 
QT 
Kodak Clean 'N' CleAR (Signet Armorlite) 
Use Special Lens Procedure. Labs bill doctor on a private invoice

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## allanon

It only comes with Clean N Clear now through most labs.

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## rdcoach5

> Autograph II is new and seems to be an improved design over the original autograph (which I thought was only ok). Remember that ALL back surface progressives must pay a royalty to Seiko/Pentax which patented the design. Therefore, you may want to consider the Pentax Perfas and Seiko Succeed (is that the right name?).
> 
> Of the new digital designs, only the Autograph II has variable corridor AND variable inset, which can come in handy with some patients. 
> 
> Had decent luck with the Unique, which Craig on the board loves.
> 
> The big question is, does everyone need digital? 
> 
> We have had fantastic success with the Shamir Creation and Piccolo, but I believe the digital lenses have a place, especially in high cyl, high lens inset and short B measurement frames.
> ...


I have tried with identical Rx and frame the Unique and HDV. For work, I much prefer the GT2 to either of the free-forms. Dist is much better than previous generation of progressives.

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## beagleman

Signet Armorlite changed the ARC on the Kodak Unique on March 1st from KodakClear to Kodak CleanClear.  Unfortunately, the new coating is not approved by VSP, so you may have to order the Unique using special lens rules.  See if your local Signet rep will do the same thing our guy did.  My Kodak rep worked with the labs we use to get Signet Armorlite to reimburse for the difference in price between the two coatings and our labs will now process the Unique as they did before without having to use special lens procedure.  We just send in the order with KodakClear.  Your patient will normally have to pay the "C" coating of $61 in addition to the "N" Prog of $119.  This is the best lens I have ever worn, I'm a firm believer in it and glad we can get it through VSP again, Signet Armorlite and my Kodak rep really went the extra nine yards to make it work for us.

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## optigrrl

> Signet Armorlite changed the ARC on the Kodak Unique on March 1st from KodakClear to Kodak CleanClear. Unfortunately, the new coating is not approved by VSP, so you may have to order the Unique using special lens rules. See if your local Signet rep will do the same thing our guy did. My Kodak rep worked with the labs we use to get Signet Armorlite to reimburse for the difference in price between the two coatings and our labs will now process the Unique as they did before without having to use special lens procedure. We just send in the order with KodakClear. Your patient will normally have to pay the "C" coating of $61 in addition to the "N" Prog of $119. This is the best lens I have ever worn, I'm a firm believer in it and glad we can get it through VSP again, Signet Armorlite and my Kodak rep really went the extra nine yards to make it work for us.


I don't understand this thinking that VSP "approves" products. They allow product submission only so many times a year but they accept all submissions - without an *approval* process. 

Now whether or not they pay the claim is another story.....:hammer:

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## snotbagel

I just got myself two new freeforms, and have been fiiting several recently. The only problems have beenwith wrap fits  from Shamir..but other than that, my patients and I love:

Pentax Perfas Prime and Prestige
Indo Lifemade Inicia and Expert
Seiko Succeed and WS

The PX prime is REAL comfortable, and the Indo Expert has all the stuff of a 360.

Whats decisive is the victory of independent digital back surface labs! better quality from cheap blanks!

Now, where does VSP fit into this? They don't , which  means that you simply give a %20 discount and supply em yourself, billing VSP for "independent lab". They don't pay you, but you get to make better money....

I've had to do this with swissflex and  t2 frames anyway, since they can only be made in the company labs..

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## bt5050

> Of the new digital designs, only the Autograph II has variable corridor AND variable inset, which can come in handy with some patients. 
> John


ISN't True that the accolade freeform - also has the custom channel - and inset based off the rx - and frame selection ? 
i wonder WHO HAD IT OUT 1st shamir or essilor ? 
does anyone know ? 

COPY LINK -
http://www.visioncareproducts.com/ME...3CF7C86D825720 

In addition to all the benefits of Harmonix Technology, the Accolade Freedom lens design also includes FrameOptimiza-tion™ Technology. This process further customizes the back-side design of the lens using digital surfacing. FrameOptimization technology considers the height and width of the frame and the position of the pupil in the frame, interprets this data, and incorporates it with Rx data to further customize the lenses for the wearer. 

    FrameOptimization Technology optimizes the available visual space while allowing patients the freedom to choose any type of frame to fit their lifestyle, allowing 15mm fitting height, if needed.    

    Utilizing the frame’s dimensions into the final design calculations, FrameOptimization Technology maximizes the fields-of-vision through any frame, while maintaining the integrity of the lens’ design. It also offers superior optics without additional measurements (such as vertex distance and pantoscopic tilt).

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## Eric the Eye Guy

Nobody mentioned Hoya ID and ID Lifestyle...

For my money, the BEST free form on the market. Expensive, yes, but hasn't an equal.

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## optigrrl

> Nobody mentioned Hoya ID and ID Lifestyle...
> 
> For my money, the BEST free form on the market. Expensive, yes, but hasn't an equal.


I absolutely agree with you *shameless plugging, here!* but I didn't want to be biased!

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## optigrrl

Eric, welcome to Optiboard!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::che  ers:

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## EyeFitWell

> In addition to all the benefits of Harmonix Technology, the Accolade Freedom lens design also includes FrameOptimiza-tion Technology.


 The Autograph 2 also incorporates the frame measurements in the design.  They call it "FreeFrame Technology."

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## DocInChina

> Seiko/Pentax owns the patents on back surface freeform progressives, so all the other companies that do a back surface only pay them a royalty. They seem to have a good price point too. Having said that, I think the Autograph II is the most sophisticated design right now.
> 
> J


Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Seiko's patent is on their design parameters and not on any design that is incorporated onto a back suface of a lens.

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## eyeguy99

Fezz...have you tried the Rodenstock Multi Gressiv with the high cyls patients yet???  Works really well but due to high price you need to pick your patients.

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## Scott

> Seiko/Pentax owns the patents on back surface freeform progressives, so all the other companies that do a back surface only pay them a royalty. They seem to have a good price point too. Having said that, I think the Autograph II is the most sophisticated design right now.
> 
> J


You may want to take a closer look as to who owns the back suface patents. If i am not mistaken Zeiss holds the back surface patent and Seiko is the one paying the royalty, Also HDV has a varaible corridor length.

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## RenegadeOptician

I've been wearing Progressives for nearly ten years, I find the Seiko Succeed is my Go To Lens. Honestly, It's twice as good as Lenses twice the Price. I Use the Autograph II for Higher Presciptions.

The Rodenstock Mutligressiv is Great but I've had too many Service Issues with Rodenstock Labs.

And a Big Shout Out to Whomever designed the Autograph Single Vision.
Good Lord dispensing that Lens Makes Me Happy Like a Little Girl

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## john-atlanta

Welcome to OptiBoard!!!!!!
:cheers:


Can you elaborate on where you feel the Autograph SV shines and in what cases you like to Rx it?

Thanks!


John






> I've been wearing Progressives for nearly ten years, I find the Seiko Succeed is my Go To Lens. Honestly, It's twice as good as Lenses twice the Price. I Use the Autograph II for Higher Presciptions.
> 
> The Rodenstock Mutligressiv is Great but I've had too many Service Issues with Rodenstock Labs.
> 
> And a Big Shout Out to Whomever designed the Autograph Single Vision.
> Good Lord dispensing that Lens Makes Me Happy Like a Little Girl

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## RenegadeOptician

I generally recommend the AutoGraph SV to Patients with a cyl between 2-5 diopters or a sphere over 5 diopters. I've had patients literally Squeal with Delight when I dispensed their -14 diopter lenses.
   It's a Highly Recommended Addition to any Independent's War Chest against the Chains

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## TLG

> If you are talking about the new Clean N' Clear, the ENTIRE job is supposed to go through your private lab and you use the special lens procedure. To calculate the patient cost, calculate your U&C for the lens PLUS the AR, subtract 20% and then subtract your progressive allowance and dispensing fee. There is NO chargeback, because you have to pay the lab. *Goto Eyefinity -> VSP online -> Special lens calculator (on top left), enter your U&C and progressive dispensing fee.* Not sure what it is, call VSP.


I created a calculator for these in an Excel spreadsheet for our office. If anyone would like a copy, you can email or pm me and I will email it to you with instructions on how to easily modify it for your office. It may save you time by not having to log in and/or having to reenter your contracted vsp fees (they are saved in the calculator).

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## ayoco

vsp codes 
who can explain the best codes for maximum pal and free form reimbursement?

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## TLG

> vsp codes 
> who can explain the best codes for maximum pal and free form reimbursement?


  -n

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## john-atlanta

For Signature plan: the chargeback for progressives is EXACTLY equal to the patient out of pocket (OOP), so from a profit point of view it makes no difference.  

For example the Autograph II is a "N" progressive OOP is $119 in CR39 and the chargeback is $119.  The Younger image is a "L" class progressive with OOP $71 and the chargeback is...$71.  

The profit comes from the dispensing fee, which is the same for both and the options, which is the same for both.  Therefore, prescribing more expensive progressives makes no additional profit for the practice, unless you feel it differentiates you from your competitors and / or reduces time and money on remakes and non-adapts.

See attached for fees and chargebacks (page 4 shows progressives). Note service fee = profit for practice.  

For Signature Choice: more expensive progressives = more profit (in theory) because you collect 80% or your U&C - your standard bifocal price.  For example, if your charge $300 for your progressive of choice and $100 for bifocals, you would charge the patient $300-$100 = $200*80% = $160.

If you charge $200 then you get $80 (200-100) * 80%

Hope this helps!

John

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## G L A

G23D THE NEW FREEFROM PROGRESSIVE IS THE BEST .

GT23D is new launch of zeiss and this is the best freefrom progressive. who are using this , they are realy get experience of vision never before.

:)

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## mahmoud.hamza

> This has been one of my complaints with free-form. The times that I have tried with higher power, cyls, etc, the lab had issues. I have been told the issues are because of high power, high cyl, blah, blah, boring, blah. But, they suggest I send more work in lower powers so they can show me how great free-form is. 
> 
> Well, I thought the benefits were more noticeable in higher cyls, powers, etc?


Fezz why do not you like Freform lens ? can you pruve that Freeform lens are not better then Conventional lens? I tried by my custumers and they are very stisfied when they change from Varilux CONFORT To Freeform lenses!!

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## Fezz

> can you pruve that Freeform lens are not better then Conventional lens?


Can you prove that they are better than conventional lenses?

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## mahmoud.hamza

> Can you prove that they are better than conventional lenses?


yes: the progressive area is more near to the eye so the view will be more important for then the conventional lens especely in the hight power  the fact Of making the power+ the asphéric disigne + the progression in the same diopter can be better conjugated

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## sharpstick777

I really like the Definity... its the lowest priced backside freeform on the market (less than $70 after iDocs discount), , has the widest intermediate area I have ever found, works well with all RX's, is quick (usually less than 6 days with CrizalA), has a ton of material choices (Cr-39 AND Poly Polarized), comes in short and long corridors (the short version has all the same mat choices as long) and about 40% of the time my patients experience no low level distortion at dispense (They can read clearly across the ENTIRE width of the lens the first time they put them on). 

Most of my patients are first time progressive wearers, and some adapt in less than 20 minutes. My previous Progressive wearers do the best though. I had one patient who put the lens on, went shopping, came back and poked their head in the door and "Wow, I can see!" and walked back out again!

Although a lot of people say they like thier freeform lens, but few are giving concrete answers to why so I thought I would add some details.

Sharpstick

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## Decades

It's important to be cautious when interpreting manufacturer marketing claims regarding technology. For example, the Varilux Physio 360 does not contain the progressive design on the back surface like some other lenses described in this thread.  

Like Physio, the Physio 360 is a front surface progressive design cast with a digitally surfaced mold. The digitally surfaced back side contains atoric curves of the distance RX - not the progressive design. 

This technology (similar to the old Rodenstock Multigressive) does provide improved optics to patients with a moderate cylinder correction. Improved that is, over what those patients would experience with the same progressive design, but without an atoric backside.

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## optigrrl

Welcome Aboard, Decades!!! 
:cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## oblique

> Can you prove that they are better than conventional lenses?


It depends.... if you consider  1/100th diopter of surfacing accuracy an improvement over 1/10th D. I believe that the science shows better surfacing accuracy will bend light in a more predictable manner providing more crisp, clear and bright vision. So freeform should be prescribed for those optically sensitive patients that do not have a complex RX.

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