# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Shamir spark

## Vista

Does anyone know more about this new measuring sistem from shamir. Which OS does it require and what kind of tablet can be used. Tnx

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## MakeOptics

> Does anyone know more about this new measuring sistem from shamir. Which OS does it require and what kind of tablet can be used. Tnx


They haven't officially even revealed it but here is a bit of information that I can share.  Sorry forum won't let me upload a pdf file, you'll have to deal with a PNG image. :(

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## Robert Martellaro

Minus the graphics...


*Shamir Spark*

A REVOLUTION IN PORTABLE , IN-SHOP, OPTICAL MEASUREMENT DEVICES!



**
*FREE OF MEASURING CLIPS ON CUSTOMER'S** FRAMES.* No more need for the annoying contraptions and uncomfortable measuring experience.


** *WITH SIMPLE ONE CLICK OPERATION,* *SHAMIR SPARK IS EASY TO USE.* Just point and click. One image captures all that's required. 

**

*SHAMIR SPARK PROCESSES THE IMAGE*
and handles the comprehensive task of measuring
and calculating all the necessary measurements.



* Intuitive and Easy to Use*
The proprietary application for Shamir SPARK can be easily downloaded
and offers an intuitive and easy to use interface.

* No Artificial Light Source Required*
SHAMIR SPARK operates in normal office environments where there is adequate
lighting and does not require any additional artificial light sources.

* The Shamir SPARK application is compatible with the Shamir Online* 
*ordering system...*
As well as with other comparable ordering systems and is available in
multiple languages including EN, FR, ES, PT and more.

* Shamir SPARK - The ideal solution for:*
Opticians who wish to improve their level of service and leverage modern technology
to conveniently and accurately measure customers for frames.

************************************************************  ***************

I'd put my money on a Panorameter, plumb line device, and distometer.

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## Randle Tibbs, ABOM

Are we creating a generation of dispensers who will no longer know how to take manual measurements when needed?

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## Judy Canty

Yup.

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## drk

No, we're looking for a way to bypass opticians altogether, so that we can have Shamir/Essilor kiosks in the mall!

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## Randle Tibbs, ABOM

I wasn't refering to any particular company(ies) per say, just in general.

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## EyeCare Rich

> No, we're looking for a way to bypass opticians altogether, so that we can have Shamir/Essilor kiosks in the mall!


Totally agree drk!  It's sad and unfortunate!

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## Optician1960

Started 30 years ago using pd sticks - pen lights with total pd split in half, then for 20+ years used pupilometers with mono pds and now using digital measuring systems. We appreciate having the picture of the patient with the measurements on screen with the frame pre-fitted in our electronic files. If there are any visual issues, we can do our normal discovery now including the image if necessary. 
Teaching apprentices how to pre-fit and measure with the image on screen showing what there results are, speaks volumes more than just speaking to the results. Look at the best athletes in the world and the fact that they rely on video along with teachers to take much of their professional skills to the next level, why not our profession?
For those who find themselves going through a very sensitive surgery in the future, you may have a choice of a surgeon using the Da Vinci System, my guess is that 9 out of 10 will choose the Da Vinci over the surgeons hand an scapple.

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## Barry Santini

Being the author of an article in the latest 20/20 about the art of taking measurements by hand, I have to say that I continue to believe that the fully-rounded optician needs to master these skills. That said, a new writing project I just finished required me to learn about/compile info on all the digital centration systems on the market, so I spent today at VEE interviewing and looking at all rhe latest DCS gear, from floor standing to table top to IPad to tablet devices, including Shamir's, which is still under final development. I can honestly say I am persuaded that ECPs should take a long hard look at the latest crop of these devices. Each one has merits and some compromises. But more important is the fact that the latest hi-res tablet displays not only allow superior precision and accuracy, they are packaged with the most fantastic augmented reality (AR) apps that really make lens features, designs and treatments for more easy, effective and persuasive to show rather than tell.
I'm gonna be buying one or more of these for my office very soon (no telling!).

IMHO, they have arrived!

B

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## Optician1960

After seeing many of the systems at VEE, I echo Barry's thoughts. The accuracy and speed at which the optician can use "some" of the latest devices is impressive. If you are taking mono PD's and seg heights, even if the system needs you to place a device on a frame, the timing is not much different than using a pupilometer and pd stick. If you are taking the vertex, pano and panto, "some" of the devices win hands down on time to utilize. The accuracy of "some" of the devices is impressive also, and in the right hands will help patients truly get the most out of as worn technologies. If you were at VEE, hope you took a few moments to look into the now, as they are no longer the future...

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## rdcoach5

> After seeing many of the systems at VEE, I echo Barry's thoughts. The accuracy and speed at which the optician can use "some" of the latest devices is impressive. If you are taking mono PD's and seg heights, even if the system needs you to place a device on a frame, the timing is not much different than using a pupilometer and pd stick. If you are taking the vertex, pano and panto, "some" of the devices win hands down on time to utilize. The accuracy of "some" of the devices is impressive also, and in the right hands will help patients truly get the most out of as worn technologies. If you were at VEE, hope you took a few moments to look into the now, as they are no longer the future...



Please rate these devices that you have experienced. The eyepad device we have is badly in need of a stand to steady and center it.

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## Optician1960

Rd,
I'll leave the rating to others and clearly some are better than others. I would say that the Ipad type devices were a  pleasant surprise with how accurate the measurements are, ease of use and focusing on the patient... The lower cost of these devices has also made price to entry for the ECP very reasonable vs the floor or desk top models. 
Some of the other tools that are important to me but may not be to others: A great lens simulator PAL, AR, Polarized...), ability to pull up saved patient pictures to analyze and train from at a later date, sending measurements directly to the lab rather than reentering the info in a POS or lab software.

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## Opticianjw

Many of the posting from this thread, I know personally. I've spent much time discussing the different views on dispensing systems and digital centration with them. Unlike many opticians that feel threatened by devices like this and resist considering the use of a dispensing system, I was one of the first in the US to purchase and start using this technology several years ago. Being self employed, a minority in the profession, I would still advocate progressive products like this. I purchased automatic edgers when they became available when many of my colleagues argued that they were just as fast and just as good. Today most or all opticians use patternless edgers. I have always considered myself a businessman before an optician so I sometimes don't think the same as opticians do. Although I can match my dispensing skills with the best in the field, as a businessman I am always looking for ways to increase my business. I can speak first hand that using a dispensing system has made me a better salesman and a better optician. I will agree with Barry that you need to do your due diligence in finding the right system because some of the systems are not as technically advanced as others and could lead to remakes and unhappy customers. Some of the lens manufacturers are offering low or no cost tablets to clients to lock them into a two or three year contract. So be careful when purchasing a system. Make sure the system you buy will detect parallax and has an accurate way to capture head posture to capture accurate heights. Spending a little more money for a better device or not being enticed by a lens manufacturer could be the difference between you using the system or putting it in the closet. I go to VEE and VEW as a live testimonial for a company that makes an independent dispensing system. As I see a growing number of Optometry offices, Ophthalmology offices and the commercial industry purchasing these systems, I still see opticians being reluctant and opposed to even testing the accuracy. I recently had an optician stop by the booth, curious to see how it works. I showed her how easy and accurate the system was, capturing her monocular seg ht and PD measurements exactly to what she knew they were. Plus capturing her panto angle, vertex distance and face form with one picture in less time than she could do it manually. Instead of opening her mind she just started getting mad and telling me that her customers are used to her practicing methods and she was not interested. I agreed that even if her measurements were as good as the system, some patient might see her competitors using more modern ways and might perceive using digital measuring as a more accurate method and may go elsewhere in the future. I stated I would not want to have to convince a patient that my use of a $2 sharpie and a PD ruler is better than todays technology that is available. I wonder if optometrist were as concerned about auto-refractors putting optometry out of business as opticians worry about dispensing systems putting opticians out of a career. I would like to see opticians work on legislating rules pertaining to the use of who can use dispensing systems instead of dissing them hoping they will go away. I am sure in time, accurate measurements will be able to be taken on line, then we all become vulnerable to untrained, unlicensed internet businesses taking a much bigger market of eyeglass sales in the future. I might not be as diplomatic as I should be but I see how the impressed patients react when I use my system taking measurements. We emphasize when selling HD lenses why it is so important in getting all the measurements and show them how we take all these important measurements so if they shop these lenses they know the benefits of getting their eyeglasses from us instead of a discount optical. It helps to justify the cost and patients leave talking to others about their experience in our office oppose to the price they've spent.

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## WFruit

> For those who find themselves going through a very sensitive surgery in the future, you may have a choice of a surgeon using the Da Vinci System, my guess is that 9 out of 10 will choose the Da Vinci over the surgeons hand an scapple.


Yes, but they had to qualify with the scalpel BEFORE they could become surgeons.

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## LENNY

> Many of the posting from this thread, I know personally. I've spent much time discussing the different views on dispensing systems and digital centration with them. Unlike many opticians that feel threatened by devices like this and resist considering the use of a dispensing system, I was one of the first in the US to purchase and start using this technology several years ago. Being self employed, a minority in the profession, I would still advocate progressive products like this. I purchased automatic edgers when they became available when many of my colleagues argued that they were just as fast and just as good. Today most or all opticians use patternless edgers. I have always considered myself a businessman before an optician so I sometimes don't think the same as opticians do. Although I can match my dispensing skills with the best in the field, as a businessman I am always looking for ways to increase my business. I can speak first hand that using a dispensing system has made me a better salesman and a better optician. I will agree with Barry that you need to do your due diligence in finding the right system because some of the systems are not as technically advanced as others and could lead to remakes and unhappy customers. Some of the lens manufacturers are offering low or no cost tablets to clients to lock them into a two or three year contract. So be careful when purchasing a system. Make sure the system you buy will detect parallax and has an accurate way to capture head posture to capture accurate heights. Spending a little more money for a better device or not being enticed by a lens manufacturer could be the difference between you using the system or putting it in the closet. I go to VEE and VEW as a live testimonial for a company that makes an independent dispensing system. As I see a growing number of Optometry offices, Ophthalmology offices and the commercial industry purchasing these systems, I still see opticians being reluctant and opposed to even testing the accuracy. I recently had an optician stop by the booth, curious to see how it works. I showed her how easy and accurate the system was, capturing her monocular seg ht and PD measurements exactly to what she knew they were. Plus capturing her panto angle, vertex distance and face form with one picture in less time than she could do it manually. Instead of opening her mind she just started getting mad and telling me that her customers are used to her practicing methods and she was not interested. I agreed that even if her measurements were as good as the system, some patient might see her competitors using more modern ways and might perceive using digital measuring as a more accurate method and may go elsewhere in the future. I stated I would not want to have to convince a patient that my use of a $2 sharpie and a PD ruler is better than todays technology that is available. I wonder if optometrist were as concerned about auto-refractors putting optometry out of business as opticians worry about dispensing systems putting opticians out of a career. I would like to see opticians work on legislating rules pertaining to the use of who can use dispensing systems instead of dissing them hoping they will go away. I am sure in time, accurate measurements will be able to be taken on line, then we all become vulnerable to untrained, unlicensed internet businesses taking a much bigger market of eyeglass sales in the future. I might not be as diplomatic as I should be but I see how the impressed patients react when I use my system taking measurements. We emphasize when selling HD lenses why it is so important in getting all the measurements and show them how we take all these important measurements so if they shop these lenses they know the benefits of getting their eyeglasses from us instead of a discount optical. It helps to justify the cost and patients leave talking to others about their experience in our office oppose to the price they've spent.


So you think that the Ipad app must be independent?

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## Optician1960

WF:
Those who use the PD stick, pupilometer or a digital device should be trained and then confirmed that they can use the tools properly "before" they are allowed to utilize the tools with the public. IMHO, the ability of most digital devices to save the picture of the measurements being taken adds a significant level of training opportunity for the apprentice optician and their preceptor, especially with pre-adjustments (the most troublesome area of opticianry). We can hope that this opportunity is being used often and wisely.

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## EyeManFla

Having used the Grolmann, scotch tape & a pen, PD stick & distometer, pupilometers both digital and non,  and of course dotting lenses......I'm for anything that makes my life easier. To me, all these high tek toys have so much less to do with us as they have to do with the patient or customer. 

The cooler the toy, the more the customer thinks you know what you are doing....in other words......dazzle 'em with brilliance or baffle 'em with bulls..t........either way, just make it work!

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## AdamD

The office I work for has a shamir spark. It's a fairly interesting device, but I still prefer my own measurements as its not always accurate.

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## wayway

Am I the only one who thinks there's a certain amount of theatricality in using one of these machines? Our practice has a Hoya True Sight machine, before that we had a Visioffice and I will happily use it to capture a few photos to take some of the measurements. I like that it's interactive so I can use it to demonstrate the difference in lenses and our patients seem to enjoy it. We even get the odd patient who will specifically ask if they are going to be measured using the machine. I find that if there is a few people browsing at frames while I'm using it, they will often stop and watch and usually ask questions after I'm done. 
I am able to take all of the measurements manually but I like that a machine is there to give me a hand. I like that if I've got a few things happening I can take a couple of photos, have a quick look to see they're okay and then send the patient on their way and order the lenses later.

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## Rafael

http://www.google.de/imgres?sa=X&biw...r:14,s:0,i:124

I would like to know how they determine the scale of the objects becouse there is no clip, are there two cameras and from the angle and dictance to the patient they calculate this? Or do they only use the  focal length and the object distance for calculation dimensions and sensor sice of the camera? Any infos about this?

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## Judy Canty

> Am I the only one who thinks there's a certain amount of theatricality in using one of these machines? Our practice has a Hoya True Sight machine, before that we had a Visioffice and I will happily use it to capture a few photos to take some of the measurements. I like that it's interactive so I can use it to demonstrate the difference in lenses and our patients seem to enjoy it. We even get the odd patient who will specifically ask if they are going to be measured using the machine. I find that if there is a few people browsing at frames while I'm using it, they will often stop and watch and usually ask questions after I'm done. 
> I am able to take all of the measurements manually but I like that a machine is there to give me a hand. I like that if I've got a few things happening I can take a couple of photos, have a quick look to see they're okay and then send the patient on their way and order the lenses later.


Bingo!

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## MakeOptics

> http://www.google.de/imgres?sa=X&biw...r:14,s:0,i:124
> 
> I would like to know how they determine the scale of the objects becouse there is no clip, are there two cameras and from the angle and dictance to the patient they calculate this? Or do they only use the  focal length and the object distance for calculation dimensions and sensor sice of the camera? Any infos about this?


The tech is in the case that goes on the ipad, the device introduces a splitter in front of the camera allowing a mono image to be stereo, giving third demensional data to the images.

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## jeffsoptical

> Am I the only one who thinks there's a certain amount of theatricality in using one of these machines? Our practice has a Hoya True Sight machine, before that we had a Visioffice and I will happily use it to capture a few photos to take some of the measurements. I like that it's interactive so I can use it to demonstrate the difference in lenses and our patients seem to enjoy it. We even get the odd patient who will specifically ask if they are going to be measured using the machine. I find that if there is a few people browsing at frames while I'm using it, they will often stop and watch and usually ask questions after I'm done. 
> I am able to take all of the measurements manually but I like that a machine is there to give me a hand. I like that if I've got a few things happening I can take a couple of photos, have a quick look to see they're okay and then send the patient on their way and order the lenses later.


Yes I agree all of these new devices are a lot of Smoke and Mirrors. Lol. Did they ever get the Shamir Spark working properly???  I was going to get a new iPad 4 to get started but the Shamir Rep couldn't get it to work right. I've had a few demos from the Wholesale Labs but they still didn't work properly.  Anyone know the latest development of the Shamir Spark?

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## Judy Canty

Don't know about the Spark, but our iFDS is working beautifully.  Indeed there is a certain amount of theatricality in using electronic measuring devices, in fact it's something that I've written about in the past.  However, as lens technology improves, and of course becomes more expensive, our patients expect a level of technological wizardry to appear as well.  Can I take a PD with a PD stick and mark a seg ht with a sharpie?  Of course I can.  I've been doing that for a lifetime. Time and technology marches on.  Along came pupilometers and that  technology quickly became the norm.  Many of us thought it ridiculous to pay several hundred dollars for a box with finger slides and a light when a good PD stick was $5.00.  The more things change, the more they stay the same.  Use what ever level of technology you're comfortable with, but remember that our patients are no longer fooled by "the man (or woman) in the back".

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## Opticianjw

I agree with Judy and personally have been using a digital centration unit since it became available. I do not use it  because I can not take accurate measurements but because patience appreciate knowing I am using the latest technology available today. I have seen first hand how patients respond to me using the system and how amazed they are when I show them the centration picture and explain why we take the measurements this way. I would suggest if you are not just looking to buy a system to impress your patients but also takes to accurate measurements, do your due diligence and make sure you buy a system that takes accurate measurements and has a good track record.

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## DazeyReign

Whole-heartedly agree with rdcoach5, we are using iPad/Spark and until I can remove human shaking error, especially with the weird position to get them lined up, it will never be as accurate as I am.  I will practice more but seem to get 1-3mm difference in eye size every time.

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## Judy Canty

If you are still deciding on an iPad based system, please stop by the Luzerne booth (MS 6754) at VEE.

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