# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Progressives Lenses Revealed

## HarryChiling

With the help of a member here Raanan and the company he works for *ROTLEX* (love you guys), a project of mine that I really hold near and dear is coming to be. A while ago I asked if manufaturers would provide mapped images of their lenses and it was difficult to tell if the imags were doctored as well as the increments they used were different between companies making it near imposible to compare apples to apples. The interesting thing I found was that many progressives do have differences, but they are not readily apparent from looking at maps, but the maps do provide some key details as to how the lens does what it does. My number of remakes on progressives was never very high but now the level of confidence from my patients is through the roof.

Here is the link, you do have to register but there are plenty of images there and this is just he begining, I have more to put up and more data to add to each image so keep checking back for more.

http://onlineopticianry.com/maps

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## chip anderson

Harry:   When I went to register I got the folloing message twice.

*Parse error*: syntax error, unexpected T_ECHO, expecting ',' or ';' in */home/onlineop/public_html/maps/insert_ac.php* on line *53*

Have no idea what this means but it wouldn't let me in because of it.

Chip

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## HarryChiling

> Harry: When I went to register I got the folloing message twice.
> 
> *Parse error*: syntax error, unexpected T_ECHO, expecting ',' or ';' in */home/onlineop/public_html/maps/insert_ac.php* on line *53*
> 
> Have no idea what this means but it wouldn't let me in because of it.
> 
> Chip


Thanks sorry I uploaded an older version of a file.  It's fixed now, let me know if you run into any other bugs.

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## scriptfiller

Thanks Harry for assembling the site, but I have one problem:  I cannot click into the usename and password boxes to log on.  I'm using Firefox on a XP platform.

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## dkippolito

same problem here

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## chip anderson

Harry:
Now it let me register, told me I may now login, but login and passwords spaces won't accept anything.

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## HarryChiling

I am not sue why it's doing that, but will check on it, I made the text underneath the fields labels so you can click on those and the field will allow you to enter the info.

Should be fixed let me know how it works out.  My intention was to wait to release this thing until the first of he year and get all the bugs out and add more lenses, but I see more posts that could use the information contained herein and the company that mapped it spent a lot of time and effort that I am sure they would love to see it up and running.  Thanks for pointing out all the bugs, lots of times as the creator I think it's perfect just because I made it so i rely on critique like this to truly perfect it.

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## Rafael

You can also use "tab" after put in the user name, so you get into the password field.

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## HarryChiling

> You can also use "tab" after put in the user name, so you get into the password field.


I just included a javascript that sets the focus to the username and your right the tab can be used from there to get to the password, again I got anxious and released the site before all the bugs are out and it will continue to be a work in progress so anything that could make it better I want to hear.

A request I am going to putting together is a comparison feature.

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## KStraker

The pictures are interesting, but I don't have a clue how to read those graphs. Can you give a tutorial please?

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## xiaowei

> The pictures are interesting, but I don't have a clue how to read those graphs. Can you give a tutorial please?


Harry, YES, GREATwork. I can understand most of the graphs, however, what exactly does the red graph in the "Corridor cross section" denote? I understand, this is something like the residual cylinder (error) along the corridor. However, for a properly designed PAL, there should be that "umbillic line" in the center of the corridor where that error is (almost, in theory) zero.

That it does reach values up to 0.4 diopters in some cases is this really due to bad lens design or does it depend on how good your current software follows the properly slightly curved corridor? This would likely also explain the steps or "tooth" in many curves when your software recenters in the corridor?! (A typical case might be "Vision Ease Outlook ATO 2008")

Any hints?

Sincerely

XW

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## Raanan Bavli

Indeed, ideally the line you talk about should be zero. After years of mapping thousands of lenses, I can say that this is never the case.  In reality almost all lenses have at least one point along the corridor, where the cylinder is 0.15D to 0.25D. Some lenses have values higher than 0.25D and to my opinion, such lenses should not be sold and worn. I have not yet managed to determine whether these residual cylinder values are design-related, or production-related, but does this really matter? I can tell, that I know one manufacturer who makes lenses with corridors having residual values not exceeding 0.1D, and this means that it's definitely possible to make good lenses.
The issue of curved corridors is not addressed by this software, and if any of the lenses displayed in Harry's site, has such feature, this representation of corridor cross-section does some injustice to such lenses.

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## KStraker

> Indeed, ideally the line you talk about should be zero. After years of mapping thousands of lenses, I can say that this is never the case.  In reality almost all lenses have at least one point along the corridor, where the cylinder is 0.15D to 0.25D. Some lenses have values higher than 0.25D and to my opinion, such lenses should not be sold and worn. I have not yet managed to determine whether these residual cylinder values are design-related, or production-related, but does this really matter? I can tell, that I know one manufacturer who makes lenses with corridors having residual values not exceeding 0.1D, and this means that it's definitely possible to make good lenses.
> The issue of curved corridors is not addressed by this software, and if any of the lenses displayed in Harry's site, has such feature, this representation of corridor cross-section does some injustice to such lenses.


Can you please tell me what is relevant in these graphs? Any chance you manufacture for Ilenco? I'd like to send a Concord for mapping.

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## Raanan Bavli

There's a lot of relevance. It depends on what you are looking for. Harry's goal was to establish some address to professionals who wish to provide their patients with the best available lens. As you know, lenses differ in many features, some of them are very difficult to quantify. Some lenses provide similar designs, but there's probably one with better performance in any class. If I understand Harry's purpose, the web site should enable professionals to stop relying on biased (and sometimes inaccurate) information related to lens performance. 
To your question about relevance; One can see the following:
corridor width at each vertical position, depth of corridor, how short are "sort corridor" designs, amount of distortions, size of "usable" areas, uniformity of the far-vision and near vision zones, errors in printed marks or semi-visible ones (leading to errors in framing the lenses), and more.
Not sure I understand your question about "manufacture for Ilenco" but if you mean mapping such a lens, I'll be glad to do that for you.

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## KStraker

> There's a lot of relevance. It depends on what you are looking for. Harry's goal was to establish some address to professionals who wish to provide their patients with the best available lens. As you know, lenses differ in many features, some of them are very difficult to quantify. Some lenses provide similar designs, but there's probably one with better performance in any class. If I understand Harry's purpose, the web site should enable professionals to stop relying on biased (and sometimes inaccurate) information related to lens performance. 
> To your question about relevance; One can see the following:
> corridor width at each vertical position, depth of corridor, how short are "sort corridor" designs, amount of distortions, size of "usable" areas, uniformity of the far-vision and near vision zones, errors in printed marks or semi-visible ones (leading to errors in framing the lenses), and more.
> Not sure I understand your question about "manufacture for Ilenco" but if you mean mapping such a lens, I'll be glad to do that for you.


I saw that you were a manufacturer in Israel. Ilenco=Israeli Lens Company. I would be interested in having a lens mapped if it is not a huge ordeal. What is the process?

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## Raanan Bavli

I'm not a lens manufacturer. My comapny develops lens inspection (and mapping) systems. The process is simple: if you send me a lens, I'll map it, and email you the lens map, along with software for analyzing lens maps. My shipping adress is:

Raanan Bavli 

Rotlex 
Unit 2D, 
Omer Industrial Park.
Omer,
Israel, 84965

If you send lenses, please indicate that these are for research only and the commercial values is 1 - 2 $ per lens.

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## HarryChiling

I am glad there is a response to the site and maps.  They do give objective data related to the lens design.  If you read the intro their certainly is a considerable amount of errors that could and probably is present in these lenses, however each design meet ANSI, therefore could potentially be a lens that you or I would order and release to our patients.  My initial intention was to wait until I had the site fully loaded with everything I would like to have on it, a tutorial is going to be one of theses things that I include, for the time being it is what it is, but I will have more information available soon to help with interpretation.  Keep in mind that any information is objective in nature, so it can and will be disputed by subjective methods.  This is another piece of the puzzle not the whole picture.  

If anyone here has read the paper by Sheedy, which many here seem to know and mention; you will understand his methodology for rating lenses.  My goal is to use his methods to rate all the lenses that I have mapped, this should allow an easier quicker method of comparison to someone that just wants the data interpreted for them.  Sheedy's methods were in no way the end all be all but it was a road map for comparison and this site could be a way of rating more lenses.




> I saw that you were a manufacturer in Israel. Ilenco=Israeli Lens Company. I would be interested in having a lens mapped if it is not a huge ordeal. What is the process?


You could also mail it to the ATO as I will be putting together another package to be sent fairly soon.




> That it does reach values up to 0.4 diopters in some cases is this really due to bad lens design or does it depend on how good your current software follows the properly slightly curved corridor? This would likely also explain the steps or "tooth" in many curves when your software recenters in the corridor?! (A typical case might be "Vision Ease Outlook ATO 2008")


I believe you are correct the teeth in the graph were taken care of in a more recent version of the software, I used an older version to make the graphs, keep in mind that this data was compiled over the course of a 2 year span and the graphs and all other data will be updated using the newer version of the software.  Xiaowei I understand you have a considerable amount of knowledge in optics, It would be nice to have your input when creating a document as a tutorial.

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## Jacqui

Have you done any with the lenses made with Crossbows software or any of the other "generic" brands?? I'm talking about freeform only.

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## HarryChiling

> Have you done any with the lenses made with Crossbows software or any of the other "generic" brands?? I'm talking about freeform only.


No and quite frankly I can't afford to do it with FF lenses and I have no desire in the present time.  If you know of anyone that is making these lenses you could send me one, parameters:

*Right Eye*
Plano Sph _(manufacturers recommended base curve)_
Add +2.00

A = 50
B = 40
Dbl = 20
ED = 51

PD = 30
Seg Hgt = 24

The address is:

Association of Technical Opticians
PO Box 114
Shrewsbury, PA 17361

I am compiling shipments of a lenses as we speak to send another package.  I have coem to a point where I have exhausted my resources getting different designs so anyone that has a specific design I would love to sent it out to be mapped an incorporated into the site.  I can send you the raw data rather than the map image as well.

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## Pell

Why is it that all PAL maps are a PL sph with a +2.00 ADD?  Wouldn't it make sense to map how higher spheres and cylinder (WTR, ATR, and obliques) affect the lens?  Or am I just talking about too much time and money?

(btw, it's good to see a compilation of these.  Good job Harry and ATO!)

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## chip anderson

Harry:
You gonna run me outta ink printin all theses for side by side comparison.

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## MarcE

> A = 50
> B = 40
> Dbl = 20
> ED = 51
> 
> PD = 30
> Seg Hgt = 24


Harry, you want these edged?? I'm surprised.

I will send you at least one. I'll look around for others.

Are you taking semi-finished blanks or finished only?

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## Ineed Chocolate

Thanks so much to you, Harry, Raanan, and Rotlex for this extremely valuable tool!  I found this very interesting and enlightening.  AND...the next time any of us have a lens rep in front of us who is giving us the standard, Our lens has the most useable space of any PAL on the market, routine, we can pull out these maps and show them the actual comparisons.

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## KStraker

> Harry, you want these edged?? I'm surprised.
> 
> I will send you at least one. I'll look around for others.
> 
> Are you taking semi-finished blanks or finished only?


I think those are just the surfacing parameters.

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## HarryChiling

Uncut not edged is how they need to be, I provided those parameters if anyone is surfaceing.

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## HarryChiling

> Harry:
> You gonna run me outta ink printin all theses for side by side comparison.


 
Workin on that. ;)

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## KStraker

> Uncut not edged is how they need to be, I provided those parameters if anyone is surfaceing.


One Scopus/Ilenco Concord on the way to you.

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## IndianaOD

So after all this work, which company in your opinion creates the most precise lenses?  

Its great data, but does it really trump experience?  The big question is..will it change any minds?  Does it make a difference that a lens has a great map but no one can adapt to it?

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## DoubleD

Thanks for the link her Harry, Work looks great!
Been a few years since I've worked with this stuff, but comes back quick.
Word of caution to those viewing these PAL maps:
-There are two types of  maps: Effective Power and actual power, Comparing "digital lens designs" make it difficult for actual power comparison.
-Different lens powers (particularily cylinder and add) dramaticaly changed percieved maps.
Thanks for  your work- does show differences in design!
Denny

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## Fezz

I am sure that Harry has put out a huge amount of his own cash on this project.

Harry...............................can we pitch in to help offset your expenses? This is alot of hard work and scratch for you. We can all benefit from it!

You tell me where.......and the cash is on its way!

Thank you!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## Fezz

Where can we send donations?

;):cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::D

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## HarryChiling

You can send lenses, but your money should go towards books, family, and the pursuit of happiness.

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## Uncle Fester

self delete...

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## Uncle Fester

So if I get a plano/+2.00 blank or  find myself with a non returnable progressive (especially "digitally compensated") lens I can send it to be mapped too-

Rotlex
Unit 2D
Omer Industrial Park
Omer Isreal 84965

I should declare the value of the lens for I assume custom purposes as no more than $2.00.

In the interest of full disclosure is Rotlex associated with any progressives? (Sorry if this has been addressed in a previous post.)

According to USPS small package rate postage is from US east coast $1.40.

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## Raanan Bavli

> So if I get a plano/+2.00 blank or find myself with a non returnable progressive (especially "digitally compensated") lens I can send it to be mapped too-
> 
> Rotlex
> 
> I should declare the value of the lens for I assume custom purposes as no more than $2.00.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure is Rotlex associated with any progressives? (Sorry if this has been addressed in a previous post.)
>  .


Yes, this is all correct. I only ask that you agree that this map will also be used (if Harry decides to do so) in the Association of Technical Opticians (ATO) project described by Harry at the top of this thread.

As for your question regarding Rotlex, we develop and manufacture inspection systems. We have no involvement, what so ever, in lens production, and we have no business relations with any lens manufacturer, other than selling and supporting our instruments.

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## HarryChiling

UPDATE:

22 new lenses added, cross sections being updated to include distortion.  MarcE I got your lens will send out when I get a few more together, still working on a comparison tool should be done soon.

FUTURE UPDATES:

Distortion maps, RMS Power Error maps, horizontal cross sections for DRP, NRP, PRP.  Progressive lens design course, yes design your own specify inset, corridor length, etc.  Working on a section to create your own Surface Definition Files (SDF, Points files) by specifying progressive parameters for creating your own digital front side progressives.

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## Jacqui

> Working on a section to create your own Surface Definition Files (SDF, Points files) by specifying progressive parameters for creating your own digital front side progressives.


Would work on back side progressives??

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## HarryChiling

> Would work on back side progressives??


I honestly don't think I am at the point to add the two surfaces together, progressive and back side prescription.  I could do a front side prescription and back side progressive, and front side progressive with a back side prescription.  The more I read the more I learn so who knows what the future holds.  The advantages of a front side toric with the back side add could be advantagous as well as an all back side job.

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## Jacqui

> I honestly don't think I am at the point to add the two surfaces together, progressive and back side prescription.  I could do a front side prescription and back side progressive, and front side progressive with a back side prescription.  The more I read the more I learn so who knows what the future holds.  The advantages of a front side toric with the back side add could be advantagous as well as an all back side job.


Keep me posted. I'm looking for software that the Evil Empire doesn't own and that I can call mine.
.
If anyone knows where I can find one, let me know !!!!!

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## misstara007

I found your page very interesting -Thanks :)

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## Uncle Fester

Bump...

Harry C. 

If I send my Rodenstock lenses to Isreal is it ok if I ask them to e mail the results to you or is it more efficient to forward them directly to Tony?

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## Uncle Fester

> I'm not a lens manufacturer. My comapny develops lens inspection (and mapping) systems. The process is simple: if you send me a lens, I'll map it, and email you the lens map, along with software for analyzing lens maps. My shipping adress is:
> 
> Raanan Bavli 
> 
> Rotlex 
> Unit 2D, 
> Omer Industrial Park.
> Omer,
> Israel, 84965
> ...


Reviving a thread to try to finish off lens designs that are still missing. Braheem in another thread that I can't find listed a bunch that he is apparently too busy to do so I was wondering if someone could find that post. If some good do-bees could each order a couple we can finish off the project.

They should be distance plano add +2.00 right lens 

Now to try to find the list!


PS Thanks for the mailing Harry C!

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## Uncle Fester

By George I think I found it!




> *aps 				*
> 
>  							Harry has spent $4K of his own money to offer us the maps, I'm offering to do the next 20 for market research. 
> 
> If anyone has a PAL they would like to see added, Please list it below...
> 
> 
> 1. X-cel Freedom ID
> 2. X-cel Freedom 5 
> ...

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## Uncle Fester

Link to Tony's site for those who haven't already bookmarked it-

http://www.thelensguru.com/lensMaps.php

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## Uncle Fester

Bump-



> Link to Tony's site for those who haven't already bookmarked it-
> 
> http://www.thelensguru.com/lensMaps.php





> *aps                * 
> 
>                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Harry has spent $4K of his own money to offer us the maps... 
> 
> If anyone has a PAL they would like to see added, Please list it below...
> 
> 
> 1. X-cel Freedom ID
> 2. X-cel Freedom 5 
> ...


Tony- Can you update the list? Any new ones that need to be added?

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## WFruit

I'd be happy to contribute some lenses once we get a current list up. From the list above I can certainly run and send all of the X-Cel and Hoya lenses listed if they are still needed.

Edit - I'm going to guess that the Younger Adage needs to be put on the list as well, which I can also do.

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## Raanan Bavli

I'm not a lens manufacturer. My comapny develops lens inspection (and mapping) systems. The process is simple: if you send me a lens, I'll map it, and email you the lens map, along with software for analyzing lens maps. My shipping adress is:

Raanan Bavli 

Rotlex 
Unit 2D, 
Omer Industrial Park.
Omer,
Israel, 84965

If you send lenses, please indicate that these are for research only and the commercial values is 1 - 2 $ per lens.

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## Uncle Fester

After being in contact with Tony aka thelensguru he wants me to let everyone know he's putting them on his site a a central place for the maps. 

So if Wfruit wants to run with the lenses he's listed just forward the maps to him and he'll post them.

Braheem- Do you want to pick up a few more?

Remember they should all be right finished blanks distance plano add +2.00

Compensated for POW lens blanks will not work.

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## Darryl Meister

I assume it is still the case that none of this applies to free-form progressive lenses, which must have each surface measured individually, the lens mathematically reconstructed, and the optical performance determined using ray tracing for a lens-eye model?

Best regards,
Darryl

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