# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Hoya i.d.: My new, NEW Favourite!!!!!

## optigrrl

We dispensed the first Hoya i.d. today...

Talk about*WOW* factor! Let me tell you the story:

RX: OD -3.50 -.25 x164
     OS -5.25 -.25 x18
      ADD +2.50

Pt. has optic neuritis in the OS since '98, her visual field test shows little to no vision in the periphery. Has switched between bifocals, trifocals and progressives off and on but without much satisfaction. Yet she loves the convenience of a PAL.

Since she has such limited vision in the left temporally, and really wanted to stay with pAL's I thought she should at least try the i.d. - again with the rep and the "dog-and-pony". I thought that she may be more comfortable in progressives if there were less distortion in the periphery. She was willing to at least try.

So she picks them up today and tries them on - TOTALLY AMAZED! She immediately comments on the clarity of vision _to the edge of the lenses._ 

She's looking around the room, and her eyes get wide and she says she's getting goosebumps and shows me her arm!!!!!!! She said it felt like she wasn't actually wearing a progressive at all! Heck, I got goosebumps too!

I was astonished. Talk about the WOW factor. Never seen anything like it - but don't get me wrong, this is the first totally freeform product I have dispensed. 

I gotta say though - this is the way to go! 

Disclaimer: This statement is not intended to imply that the aforementioned lens cured a pre-existing pathology.

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## Chul

Hi optigrrl.

I also interested in Hoya iD. However, unfortunately, I don't have a chance to dispense iD. I used to think Hoya PALs have underestmated from western specialists. As a matter of fact, Their optical qulity and AR aren't inferior to others. so far as I know ECP better than Comfort. 

I'm looking forward to hearing your additional experience with Hoya iD.
:cheers:

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## Judy Canty

Can Polycore (Futurise or Micro, I'm not pickey...) be your new favourite next month? Pretty please! ;) ;) ;)

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## Framebender

a couple of weeks ago and I'm not easily impressed.  I also have a Physio 360 and a Zeiss Individual.  When I first put them on and looked around I realized that I could see clearly in all zones.  I usually never wear the same pair of glasses 2 days in a row, but wanted to test them so I wore them about a week straight.  I've got to say its the cleanest lens I own.  This has become my new best friend.  I can't find the distortion by looking through the lens anywhere.

Judy, can you give us more information on the Polycore lenses??

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## Judy Canty

Sure!  Meet me in the Optical Marketplace!

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## Robert Martellaro

> We dispensed the first Hoya i.d. today...


Optigrrl,

I received one of the last Multigressivs imported to the USA a couple weeks ago, so I'm (and many others) on the hunt for a suitable replacement. What was the turn around time? How short was the corridor i.e. was your client able to see the middle of a newspaper without significant chin lift? If you get a chance to fit a moderate to high plus try to let us know how it turned out.




> I also have a Physio 360 and a Zeiss Individual.


Cool. What's your Rx? In addition to an increase in general comfort, were there any other notable differences in performance?

Here are the power parameters-

+6.00D to -10.00D up to -4.00 cylinder
ADDs from +.75  to +3.50

Minimum fitting height 14mm
Materials are 1.67  and 1.70

Regards,

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## Bill Mahnke

Additional Information: The HOYA iD is produced for the american market in Germany, you should find the turn-time to be around 3 weeks. Super HiVision A/R is included on all jobs.... 

Another plus - It's very unlikely that you will find the HOYA iD lens at Lenscrafters, Pearle, Wall*Mart, etc. as we've seen with other "premium" lens product. 

Consider supporting suppliers and products that support you!

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## optigrrl

Robert, 

the turnaround was 3 weeks. As soon as I get my dad's new rx (moderate hyperope) I will let you know what he thinks - but he likes BIG frames so the fitting height will be over 20.

Didn't ask the pt. about newspaper reading with the short corridor. She will be in next week or so ans I will be sure to ask.

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## Framebender

Hi Robert,

I am a +2.00 OU with a +2.00 add.  I"ve found that I'm using my glasses more like when I was single vision.  No more nose pointing. There seems to be more comfort and area in the mid range and at the near.  Distance is really clean edge to edge.  The Hoya rep gave me a coupon for my wife as well who is a moderate hyperope with 2 BI OU.  She fights the prism to focus when she first puts on her Physio, but says her eyes just go ahh when she puts on her ID.

I'd say give it a shot.  I don't think you'll go wrong!

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## Robert Martellaro

> Robert, 
> 
> the turnaround was 3 weeks. As soon as I get my dad's new rx (moderate hyperope) I will let you know what he thinks - but he likes BIG frames so the fitting height will be over 20.


That's all right, most of us don't lower our eyes more than 15mm or so when reading. If you get a chance, ask him about the distance field of vision and how it compares to his old lenses.


> Distance is really clean edge to edge.


That's unexpected, IF this lens is a short corridor design (Hoya says 14mm). 


> The Hoya rep gave me a coupon for my wife


I've go to get my hands on one of those.:) 

Thanks to both of you for the information, and for any updates. Try to keep things in context, with new and old lens parameters included.

Regards,

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## optigrrl

Dispensed the 2nd pair today - fit at 15 mm. The patient was wearing the CD in this frame previously and he immediately commented on the improvement in design. He was "VERY Impressed". 

His rx is + .25 -1.00 X98
            plano
            + 2.00 ADD

He was in a rush, so I am going to call him in a couple of days to get more specific info on how he likes the id's compared with the cd's.

As for the first patient, she will be back in town Monday or Tuesday of next week. (The one with optic neuritis). 

I am soooo looking forward to talking to her!

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## Bill Mahnke

If you don't mind; What is your retail price for the iD, how do patients feel about the retail price, and does the offer of a $75.00 patient "rebate" help to cushion the "sticker shock"?

Thanks

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## Grubendol

I'm not familiar with the iD, but what all of you are saying is impressive.  I think I'm gonna have to organize a visit from our local Hoya rep for more info.

Thanks for the tip everyone!

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## Robert Martellaro

> Dispensed the 2nd pair today - fit at 15 mm. The patient was wearing the CD in this frame previously and he immediately commented on the improvement in design. He was "VERY Impressed". 
> 
> His rx is + .25 -1.00 X98
> plano
> + 2.00 ADD
> 
> He was in a rush, so I am going to call him in a couple of days to get more specific info on how he likes the id's compared with the cd's.


Not usually an easy Rx for a PAL, and I'm surprised that your client saw a remarkable difference between designs. It sounds like you are optimizing the lens position, and doing so with a high degree of precision.

I ordered my first Hoya ID yesterday morning. Here are the specifics.

Old Rx and lens parameters
-2.25 +2.50 x 35
-1.75 +2.00 x 150
add +2.00
Poly Comfort, 21mm high, un-coated, first PAL, easy adaptation.

New Rx
-2.50 +2.50 x 42
-1.75 +2.00 x 150
add +2.25
1.67 ID, 19mm high, coated.

I'll follow up after they're dispensed.

Regards,

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## optigrrl

Thank you, Robert for the compliment. Keep us posted on your experience with this lens.

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## eyeguymd

I am a picky PAL dispenser, very loyal to HOYA. Their ID is fantastic, although a bit on the pricey side. I tried Phyiso 360 and was not impresses, and ZEISS take a life time to get. 

Keep it in mind for the PAL skeptics... Its a winner.:)

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## optigrrl

I dispensed the 3rd pair on Saturday (yes, I make house calls :) ).

Pt. is an Ophthalmologist, possibly facing EARLY retirement because of an arthritic condition in her neck. Operating the slit lamp forces her to move her head forward to accomodate the patient which causes her neck to cramp up and she has cronic pain. 

Her rx is:

OD -.50  -1.00  x 88
OS -.75  -1.25  x 88

ADD +1.75

Seg = 17 hi

Her immediate comment was how wide the range of vision in the periphery was.

She tends to take her glasses off to talk to patients, people (that is her range of natural vision so the "intermediate" corridor on the lens is restrictive to her...)

We visited for about an hour, and before I left she suddenly noticed that she never felt the urge to take her glasses off!

I am going to give her several days to see what she thinks and I will follow up..

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## optigrrl

My first patient with the Hoya id's came in today to order 2 more pairs!

Now that she has worn them for awhile I asked her how she liked the new lenses (it's obvious, I know - she's buying more) and where specifically she noticed improvement over her others. 

Distance - vision is clear, edge to edge. No "swim" in the periphery.

Intermediate - about the same as current (Summit ECP)

Near - can read the entire newspaper without moving her head.

Her husband also noticed at the movies this weekend she didn't grab his arm to go down stairs, so I asked her if there was improvement in that area. Depth perception is remarkedly improved in the id's. She no longer needs to put her head all-the-way down to go down stairs anymore. 

I asked if she could give me an overall rating, what percentage would she give this lens design in improvement - she said: "A Gazillion!" ("can I say that??")

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## Bill Mahnke

*Optigrrl:*
*Have you received any more comments about the HOYA iD lens?* 
Attending VisionExpo?  I hope you'll have time to visit us, I'll be there!
Bill

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## optigrrl

Hi Bill!

I have been playing phone tag with the gentleman that I fit at 15 hi - he started a new job, and today is the first day back at work for the MD - I want to give her some time to see how they perform at work. I'll call her in a couple of weeks. 

Don't worry, I will keep you up to date!

Due to a last-minute schedule change it doesn't look like I will be able to attend VEW, but if plans change I will certainly be by to see you and Ivana.

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## optigrrl

> Dispensed the 2nd pair today - fit at 15 mm. The patient was wearing the CD in this frame previously and he immediately commented on the improvement in design. He was "VERY Impressed". 
> 
> His rx is + .25 -1.00 X98
> plano
> + 2.00 ADD
> 
> He was in a rush, so I am going to call him in a couple of days to get more specific info on how he likes the id's compared with the cd's.


Update 9/8/06:

Pt. came in today so I asked him for a follow up on the id fit at 15 hi. We had changed the seg from 16 to 15 and his add is actually +2.25 (error!) This is the report:

His field of vision is wider on the id than on the cd but on the cd the distortion in the periphery in the distance was "softer". He says that the vision through the id's are like High Defininition Tv. "You don't realize what you were missing". He said that even though his corridor of vision is much wider (how much? 50% or more he said) when he does hit the distortion it is much more pronounced. 

I put a little face-form on him and he felt an improvement but he still felt that he gained more "HD" vision left to right. However he was more aware of the distortion on the sides once his eyes reached it. 

As far as the intermediate and near he felt he had much more room. 

To summarize - 

Cons: At 15 hi the id pushes more unwanted astigmatism above the 180 than the cd does.
Pros: Wider area of crisp, HD vision in distance, near and intermediate. Distinct clarity in the channel and more of it.

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## Win C

I will be dispensing a pair of 1.7 Hoyalux ID to a customer in about 2 weeks time. This customer of mine is a first time wearer of progressive lenses. Will give a full report once she comes in to collect them.  :cheers:

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## nickrock

What are people charging for the iD? Just curious. If you don't want to post please PM me. Thanks

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## Bill Mahnke

One "PM" is on the way.............

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## keithbenjamin

Has anyone who has worn the iD also worn the Creation? I've been hearing similar "wow" reactions for the Creation and I'm wondering how much difference there really is

-Keith

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## Robert Martellaro

> I ordered my first Hoya ID yesterday morning. Here are the specifics.
> 
> Old Rx and lens parameters
> -2.25 +2.50 x 35
> -1.75 +2.00 x 150
> add +2.00
> Poly Comfort, 21mm high, un-coated, first PAL, easy adaptation.
> 
> New Rx
> ...


Dispensed this morning. Slight improvement in distance acuity, probably due to the Rx tweak OD. Distance peripheral vision noticably better then the Comfort, and this extended down into the intermediate and near zones. 

Near vision acuity was the same (I placed +.25 over the old left). He commented that the area of clear vision when looking at the newspaper (I keep one by the dispensing table) seemed much larger, essentially without boundaries or blur zones. 

Overall, impressive off-axis performance considering that the ID is a short corridor design. How much of the improvement can be attributed to the atoricity or the "voodoo optics" is unknown, probably the latter, considering that there was no apparent increase in acuity at near.

Next up, a high minus moderate cyl to be dispensed early next week.

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## Samuel Jong

> I will be dispensing a pair of 1.7 Hoyalux ID to a customer in about 2 weeks time. This customer of mine is a first time wearer of progressive lenses. Will give a full report once she comes in to collect them. :cheers:


Is Hoyalux ID a new product of PAL?

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## Samuel Jong

I am curious to hear the comment from Hoya ID wearer.

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## optigrrl

I dispensed a first timer in the Creation originally. This patient is a YOUNG 76 yr lady who has never really worn glasses in her life. I pretty much told her that getting used to a PAL would be difficult, especially since she only wears correction for DV. We gave it 3 weeks with no positive results.

Pt. was very motivated, so I explained the id and she decided to try them and paid the difference.

It's been three weeks since and she stopped by to tell me that the lenses are "night and day" compared with the first pair. Although she prefers to work close up without any glasses she is extremely happy with the noticeable lack of swim and the wide viewing area. (For shopping :p )

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## Win C

My customer had just came in to collect her glasses. she had never worn a pair of progressive before. She is about 50 years of age. Her prescription was -8.00 R and L. and her new RX is
R-8.25 Add 1.75
L-8.25 / -0.50 x 170 Add 2.00

She was motivated and wanted to try progressive and she also wanted rimless frame and the thinnest possible and the "best lens" there is. I recommended the hoya id 1.7 as it is easy to fit and took about 10 days for the lens to come in.

Her first reaction when she put on her new glasses is "it's very clear". This is probably due to the slight change in her prescription as well as the lenses being new therefore giving improved clarity. 

As this is her first pair of progressive, she probably does not know what to expect. So I asked her to stand up and walk around looking at the floor and walking up and down a small step. She actually jumped down the step and did not have the feeling that the floor "higher". I asked her to look down and if she feel like "floating" she said no. I also asked her to move her head side to side to see if she experience any "swim" effect and she said no. She is also very happy with her near vision and has very "wide" field of vision with no peripheral blur. 

From my experience, patients with high minus prescriptions like this patient almost always have little adaptation problem with progressive anyway. 

Patients with low minus or plus are always a challenge with progressive. I will try to fit more of these prescription with the id. But this itself is a challenge because the id is an expensive lens.  :Rolleyes:

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## Samuel Jong

Did you remember the thickness of the lens edge for -8.25 with Hoya iD 1.7? What's the lens size?

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## rob.optician

Do any of you have experience dispensing the izon lenses AND the Hoya ID lens? If so how would you compare your results?

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## optigrrl

Who makes izon?

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## Ory

Ophthonix (sp?) makes the iZon...it is their wavefront based lens which is very individualized and verrrrrry expensive.

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## Win C

> Did you remember the thickness of the lens edge for -8.25 with Hoya iD 1.7? What's the lens size?


THe eyesize is about 45 to 46 and not much decentration. Edge thickness is estimated to be about 4mm (i did not really measure the thickness). Cosmetically it looks fine to me. SHe had originally wanted something with an eyesize of about 49 to 50 but I advised her against it. Otherwise she would have questioned if I had given her a 1.7 index lens.

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## Robert Martellaro

Samuel,

I'll be dispensing this Hoya ID 1.70 tonight.

-8.75 +1.50 x 120  add 2.25  3.75mm above center
-9.50 +1.75 x 43  

CT 1.1mm 48 eye 4.25mm in OU no roll

ET = 5.5mm right 6.00 left

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## optigrrl

> Ophthonix (sp?) makes the iZon...it is their wavefront based lens which is very individualized and verrrrrry expensive.


Do you have to buy any type of typogropher?

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## Samuel Jong

> THe eyesize is about 45 to 46 and not much decentration. Edge thickness is estimated to be about 4mm (i did not really measure the thickness). Cosmetically it looks fine to me. SHe had originally wanted something with an eyesize of about 49 to 50 but I advised her against it. Otherwise she would have questioned if I had given her a 1.7 index lens.


Thanks.

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## Samuel Jong

> Samuel,
> 
> I'll be dispensing this Hoya ID 1.70 tonight.
> 
> -8.75 +1.50 x 120 add 2.25 3.75mm above center
> -9.50 +1.75 x 43 
> 
> CT 1.1mm 48 eye 4.25mm in OU no roll
> 
> ET = 5.5mm right 6.00 left


Robert,

The information is very useful for me. It seems that Hoya has not launched this type of lense in my country yet, or I don't notice it.

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## AWTECH

Optigrrl said:


> Do you have to buy any type of typogropher?


I think it is about $30,000 and it is an abborometer, to measure the abberations on the cornea + other functions.

The only problem I have with the technology as I know it is the wavefront buzz word, which can be used for laser surgery on the eye, does have a defined use that I can understand when it come to the eye.  Refraction accuracy can surly be improved I am not convienced that this type of technology offers real benefit for the patient compared to other forms of individualized lens designs that eleminate or minimize the abberations in the lens.

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## Ory

The other thing to keep in mind is the accuracy of the aberrometer.  Aberrometers use what is called a Hartmann-Shack lens array to determine the overall aberration.  This array can have anywhere from 30 to hundreds or thousands of lenses and hence measurement points.  The spaces between these points are averaged, so the higher the "resolution" is the more accurate the wavefront.  This is very important, and it means that not all custom LASIK is the same because different platforms use different levels of measurement.

I have no idea how accurate the aberrometer is from ophthonix.

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## DragonLensmanWV

[quote=Win C;158373]My customer had just came in to collect her glasses. she had never worn a pair of progressive before. She is about 50 years of age. Her prescription was -8.00 R and L. and her new RX is
R-8.25 Add 1.75
L-8.25 / -0.50 x 170 Add 2.00


Now we're talking more my speed. I am preparing to order a set of Hoyalux iD in their eyas 1.6 material. Hopefully these will give me a bit better vision than my current specs due to new refraction. I'm going with their 1.6 instead of their higher indexes because I am one of those who experience a large degree of abberration due to low ABBE. Their Abbe is IIRC about 42 on theirs, so that might do for me, as currently I'm wearing Spectralite.
My new Rx is:
-12.25 -2.50 X16
-12.25-2.50 X166
Add 2.75
Previously I have been unable to wear 1.6 index or above. I'm hoping advances in materials have made this possible. And no, I have no illusions about AR helping cancel ABBE-related problems.

Ironic isn't it - that the people who need the thinnest lenses often can't wear them because of poor optics.

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## DragonLensmanWV

Aargh! Seems the iD only comes in the 1.67 or higher. Guess I'll have to settle for the Summit instead.

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## Win C

> Aargh! Seems the iD only comes in the 1.67 or higher. Guess I'll have to settle for the Summit instead.


I believe the ID comes in 1.60, 1.67 and 1.70 materials.

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## RT

In the US, HOYALUX ID is currently only available in 1.67 and 1.70 index.  The Abbe value on the 1.70 is 36, which is higher than most other high index products.

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## Barry Santini

reaction to Hoya ID...

I'm hopin' it proves to be as good as early adopters are sayin'...cause....

then maybe Essilor will buy Hoya'a technology, and I'll get it with Alize Clear gard, and from my Essilor lab...

(hee hee...)

Barry

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## optigrrl

> reaction to Hoya ID...
> 
> I'm hopin' it proves to be as good as early adopters are sayin'...cause....
> 
> then maybe Essilor will buy Hoya'a technology, and I'll get it with Alize Clear gard, and from my Essilor lab...
> 
> (hee hee...)
> 
> Barry


No disrespect to Essilor, but Hoya's SuperHighVision is far superior to Alize, even with Clearguard. (I use both products)

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## rinselberg

> No disrespect to Essilor, but Hoya's SuperHighVision is far superior to Alize, even with Clearguard. (I use both products.)


Just out of curiosity - although I am an Rx lens wearer myself - I wonder if anyone would like to expand on that? What do you see that makes the one AR treatment definitely superior to the other one?

I haven't yet used a pair of eyeglasses with AR, but I'm well read on the subject, as to the information and opinions that are available online.

I am aware that this subject has been kicked around a lot on OptiBoard before, but Crizal Alize Clearguard is a brand new product - and I don't think that I have read a post about this before from *optigrrl* ...

Yours truly.

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## Win C

> Just out of curiosity - although I am an Rx lens wearer myself - I wonder if anyone would like to expand on that? What do you see that makes the one AR treatment definitely superior to the other one?
> 
> 
> Yours truly.


For me, it's durability of the coating that makes one superior to the other.
Hoya's AR coating can last for 3 to 5 years before the hard coat starts to crack with the multicoat still intact.

Inaddition, I hardly (or never) get any complaints of AR problem from Hoya lens user.

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## optigrrl

Rinselberg - 

Coatings are not so tangible as progressives to do a user comparison on, this opinion has more to do with technical information. I am not saying that Alize w/ Clearguard is a bad product. I dispense it and consider it a top-tier coating. 

The Bayer ratings list Hoya's SuperHighVision as the most resistant to abraisions. Alize is about halfway down that list. 

That is not to say that Alize is going to scratch easily, it just tells me that SuperHighVision is just going to survive abraision a little better than Alize. AZ is notorious for it's dirt being abraisive - sand and all. So you can imagine the importance of a good hard coating out here. 

SuperHighVision and Zeiss Carat (Europe ONLY) are the only 2 coatings that match substraits. Less chance of failure by separation, truer abbe values. (Abbe values can be affected by the abbe value of the coating - any coating applied to a lens surface)

When the abbe value of the coating is not matched to the abbe value of the lens material you see a 'rainbow' effect on the surface of the lens. Chromatic aberration to a degree. You don't get this with Hoya products. 

Alize with Clearguard is a great coating, easy to clean and anti-static. Teflon, on the other hand seems to almost 'attract' dirt to it's surface. This is a factual, personal comparison between Teflon and Alize regular. (OOoooo - I'm gonna get dinged on my reputation points for that!)

There. Now you have your comparison. 

And shame on you, Rinselberg :finger: :p 

Don't you know that without an A/R coating you are missing between 8%-11% of your prescription because of reflected light? Don't you want more natural vision?

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## xiaowei

> Rinselberg - 
> 
> When the abbe value of the coating is not matched to the abbe value of the lens material you see a 'rainbow' effect on the surface of the lens. Chromatic aberration to a degree. You don't get this with Hoya products.


Optigrlll, Hi,

Hmmm, just curious, from the viewpoint of theoretical optics I cannot understand this. Any thin coating that does not match the refractive index of the lens substrate should only cause a very slight parallel offset (on the order of the coating thickness, i.e. sub µm) of any refracted ray, which will cause NO change in the perceived image.

I know that issue has come up before in this board that AR coatings might influence the (perceived) Abbe. Is there any (written) source for this?

Sincerely

XW

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## rinselberg

> One of the most important steps in creating a durable and efficient AR lens coating is called "substrate matching." Knowing that each lens material has its own unique characteristics - how much it flexes upon impact, how porous its surface is, how well it bonds to certain thin films, etc. - it makes sense that the lens material (the substrate) should be matched with an ideal hard coat and an ideal anti-reflective treatment.
> 
> This is exactly what quality AR lens coaters do. This is why you must tell them which lens material you are sending them when you ship a lens to be anti-reflective coated. Knowing this information allows them to utilize the best hard coating and AR formulation for that specific material.
> 
> If the index of the coating doesn’t match the index of the lens, fringe interference (color rings) occurs. This optical phenomenon can reduce the quality of vision for the wearer. Technically speaking, the index of refraction of the AR layer (or film) must be equal to the square root of the index of the material being coated. This relationship is derived from reflection factors between air and the film, and between the film and the lens.


The interference patterns or color rings are also known as "Newton's rings". Since the interference patterns would be a kind of chromatic aberration, I think that is why the term "Abbe" has been used in this context - a "perceived" degradation in the Abbe value - but caused by the index mismatch between the lens and the AR, and not by the intrinsic Abbe value of the lens material itself.

I don't know how this index matching works out when there are multiple layers of coating - an AR stack - which is the most common way it's done.

Source: http://www.firstvisionmedia.com/uww/...r/tech_ar.html

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## xiaowei

> The interference patterns or color rings are also known as "Newton's Rings" or sometimes, "Newton Rings".
> 
> I don't know how this index matching works out when there are multiple layers of coating - an AR stack - which is the most common way it's done.
> 
> Source: http://www.firstvisionmedia.com/uww/...r/tech_ar.html


Hi,

all true, I have done calculations of multilayer coatings myself, then you basically get complicated sums of all the possible reflection paths inside the coating to get an "effective refractive index" so to speak. Actually, any high AR coatings needs this, because there are simply no single materials that have a refractive index that is the geometric mean of air and glass as you would need it.

HOWEVER, all this interference stuff might cause a slight tinting of the passing light (actually must be the complemetary color of the slight purple or greenish tint you see in reflection), BUT it should NOT cause any lateral spreading of the rays as you get with dispersion due to low Abbe values.

XW

P.S. Rinselberg, what the ....  :Confused:  are you doing at that time on the internet!? What is your local time? Impressive!!;)

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## rinselberg

> Hi,
> 
> all true, I have done calculations of multilayer coatings myself, then you basically get complicated sums of all the possible reflection paths inside the coating to get an "effective refractive index" so to speak. Actually, any high AR coatings needs this, because there are simply no single materials that have a refractive index that is the geometric mean of air and glass as you would need it.
> 
> HOWEVER, all this interference stuff might cause a slight tinting of the passing light (actually must be the complemetary color of the slight purple or greenish tint you see in reflection), BUT it should NOT cause any lateral spreading of the rays as you get with dispersion due to low Abbe values.
> 
> XW
> 
> P.S. Rinselberg, what the ....  are you doing at that time on the internet!? What is your local time? Impressive!!;)


Well, I'm getting in over my head, but I think if the AR is not index matched close enough to the lens, it does look like a chromatic aberration or a dispersion of the rays, and not just a slight tinting of the light - but that is as far as I can go with this.

Just think *rinselberg 24/7 ...*
 :Rolleyes:

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## rinselberg

Sir Isaac Newton, the famous seventeenth century mathematician and physicist, was one of the first scientists to study interference phenomena. In his famous Newton's rings experiment, he placed a convex lens of large curvature on a flat glass plate and applied pressure to hold the lens and glass plate together. When he viewed them through reflected sunlight, he observed a series of concentric light and dark colored bands similar to those illustrated (image). Although Newton recognized that the rings indicated the presence of some degree of periodicity in light, which would seem to suggest a wave theory, he primarily regarded light as a stream of particles, a commonly held opinion at the time.



The rings occurred in Newton's experiment because of a thin layer of air that existed between the curved convex and flat glass surfaces. Light reflected from the top and bottom surfaces of the glass combined, producing interference patterns that appeared as the colored rings. Today, the basic principle of Newton's experiment is often used by lens manufacturers to test the uniformity of large polished surfaces.

Credit: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/optics/l...erference.html

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## xiaowei

> <snip>
> 
> The rings occurred in Newton's experiment because of a thin layer of air that existed between the curved convex and flat glass surfaces. Light reflected from the top and bottom surfaces of the glass combined, producing interference patterns that appeared as the colored rings. Today, the basic principle of Newton's experiment is often used by lens manufacturers to test the uniformity of large polished surfaces.
> 
> Credit: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/optics/l...erference.html


Hi again

Busy, busy, but this all has nothing related to the "fringing" or "seams" for rays resp. images of contrasty edges passing through the lens interface. Yes, we still do these tests here too some times when making lenses (for microscopes etc.), while most the testing is now verified with laser interferometers that give numerical values.

And yes, interference is at work with AR coatings, but that´s just what they are made for (no side effect). Actually you could say, a (single) Ar coating has just the right *constant* thickness so that one *extended* Newton dark fringe spans over the whole surface of the lens - hence no more or at least lower reflection! (Same overall result with multilayers) That´s exactly how ARs work. The reason you need the right index is that you need just the right out of phase intensity so ideally the reflected light will cancel fully.

And yes, the AR stack needs to have the right "effective Abbe" to work over the full range of wavelengths, but that´s what controls the residual tint I mentioned before.

Cheers:) 

XW

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## Barry Santini

> No disrespect to Essilor, but Hoya's SuperHighVision is far superior to Alize, even with Clearguard. (I use both products)


And yet my experience with Superhivision is JUST the opposite...just about *every* one of the SHV's I dispensed in the last three years has shown up with adhesion failure....And Hoya's policy had been a 1-time replacement w/i 2 years...not nearly as good as ALize's 2 year unlimited, no hassle guarantee.

As for scratch resistance...I don't have enough hard evidence to make a comparative...but... 

I think, for me, ACG's feature's and warranty (lifetime adhesion failure), and variety of materials that it can be applied to, make it the best overall coating for me to present.

Your mileage may differ from mine....

Barry Santini, ABOM

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## rob.optician

I've found through my experience that the Super Hi-Vision is much more scratch resistant than any other AR I use here. I've used Crizal Alize - Kodak cleAR - Super Hi-Vision - Acclaro etc.
I would compare Hoya's Hi-Vision with View Protect to the best Crizal Alize. Hi-Vision is Hoya's "#2" Anti-Glare.

Super Hi Vision comes out with a 2 year. unlimited scratch warranty...they don't even ask for the lenses back if they get scratched up....

I've only been using it for a little under a year but so far have not had to remake any lenses under the scratch warranty..even though I do tell every patient about the warranty.

The SHV w/ View Protect on the Phoenix Trivex lens is about as scratch resistant as you can get with plastic. 

Downside to SHV is you can only get it on hoya specific product. For example...if you get a Hoya Summit ECP progressive lens...with Transitions...they will not put SHV on the lens. You have to use Hi-Vision...b/c Transitions is not their own product...

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## Barry Santini

> The SHV w/ View Protect on the Phoenix Trivex lens is about as scratch resistant as you can get with plastic. 
> 
> Downside to SHV is you can only get it on hoya specific product. For example...if you get a Hoya Summit ECP progressive lens...with Transitions...they will not put SHV on the lens. You have to use Hi-Vision...b/c Transitions is not their own product...


And these *exceptions* are another reason I don't use SHV...I hate saying: "...this is the best, but you can't have it on your (polaroid) sunglasses..."

Like many optical technologies for me...I'm not interested in the *absolute* latest/best...just whatever is *excellent*, and also forgives people their accidents and/or neglect. In this way...for me...it is possible to sell many more high-end products than if everything had an alacarte approach.

Since I also feel that the absolute latest technolgies are *always* fluid/changing...the step below is much more stable for me...and represents the core of my approach to dispensing. But I respect others' opinions in this as well.

Barry Santini, ABOM

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## Bill Mahnke

Quote:
And yet my experience with Superhivision is JUST the opposite...just about *every* one of the SHV's I dispensed in the last three years has shown up with adhesion failure.... And Hoya's policy had been a 1-time replacement w/i 2 years...not nearly as good as ALize's 2 year unlimited, no hassle guarantee.

*Barry, you've not been ordering Super HiVision!* 

*HOYA's* warranty for SHV is 2 years and it has has unlimited redo's! *The 2 year 1 time warranty you mentioned is on a bargain priced product called HOYA Premium*, this is a process similar to Carat and yes, it’s older/cheaper technology. (In your last post you did say you preferred older technology). 

While adhesion problems can happen with any A/R, it’s a rare event with SHV. *If you check your invoices you will discover that you’ve been ordering the lower priced HOYA Premium and not Super HiVision.* You get what you pay for...

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## Barry Santini

I *have* ordered SHV in the past, and Hoya (Hartford) has told me it was a 1 time replacement in 2 years.  If this is not correct, then the people at that facility are wrong...not me.

Barry

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## Win C

Let's not spoil this thread with yet another "Who makes better AR" discussion. :cheers:

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## rob.optician

All of the AR's I've dealt with are all bad. No matter how often I use Windex and paper towels to clean and scrub them...I've even used heavy duty easy off BAM drain cleaner on them before - and they still get oily and peel off...


they're all bad. 


all of them.

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## Barry Santini

> Let's not spoil this thread with yet another "Who makes better AR" discussion. :cheers:


there than ACG..

It just *my* choice in AR depends on more than just SR, or adhesion.

Lens Availability counts (at least for me!)!!

Barry

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## optigrrl

Rins and Xiao - 

Well, mostly Xiaowei - Since optics in your field can be measured by mechanical and theoretical physics you can derive a tangible conclusion.  
Visual acuity is measured partially by subjective perception (we see with our brains, not our eyes). There can't be objective, measurable results acheived through conventional testing. 

So - to be on the safe side I would rather eliminate all possible (perceived) abberations. 

Not to say that I haven't encountered random and arbitrary visual 'perception' problems in the past. There are soooooooooooooo many things that can contribute to a non-adapt situation. May I rant? (Rant mode: ON)

Had a patient with a -.25 change in one eye (cyl). Couldn't 'see' out of new glasses. Checked lens design, base curve, material, etc. 

What was the ONLY difference? One diopter difference in the prism thinning in the new lenses from the old. Changed it - patient saw fine. Bizarre. But let me tell you the suffering I went through to get the lab to change this - nothing in their research could explain this phenomenom!

But hey - what the heck. Solved the problem! So having seen this - with regards to chromatic abberation I would rather be safe than give up hours of my life for some neurotic patient that I will never be able to get back again. 

And - I'm kinda a sucka for geek-tech stuff anyway!

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## xiaowei

> Rins and Xiao - 
> 
> Well, mostly Xiaowei - Since optics in your field can be measured by mechanical and theoretical physics you can derive a tangible conclusion. 
> Visual acuity is measured partially by subjective perception (we see with our brains, not our eyes). There can't be objective, measurable results acheived through conventional testing. 
> 
> So - to be on the safe side I would rather eliminate all possible (perceived) abberations. 
> 
> Not to say that I haven't encountered random and arbitrary visual 'perception' problems in the past. There are soooooooooooooo many things that can contribute to a non-adapt situation. May I rant? (Rant mode: ON)
> 
> ...


Optigirrl Hi,

no problem, I really appreciate your comment. I´m myself a very picky person regarding sight issues. I still cannot understand why many people eg. lens wearers, and much of the ophthalmic literature too, simply neglect the problem of color fringing in glasses, especially low Abbe ones. Many people say they never ever noticed any colored fringes whatsoever looking through their glasses!!??

The first time an optician had recommended hi index lenses to me and I put them on, I found the new "colorful world" so destracting that I had those lenses soon replaced by more regular ones. Now with current 1.6, Abbe ~ 42 PALs #3 I still can easily spot those fringes when for example looking at the top of distant dark forest trees against the brighter sky, when not exactly gazing through the "color neutral" center of the lenses, (where blue fringes switch to orange ones and vice versa).

When switching from (similar Abbe) PALs #1 to PALs #2, I immediately noticed much worse color fringes, obviously due to a different lens design and/or a change in fitting height, the FV spot that I was used before to gaze through was now no longer "color neutral", (I was going to rant to the poor optician when I got those new Super Duper xxxx $$$ glasses), I later learned I needed to look up a quite a bit higher in those for "no colors". 

Maybe it´s only with very bright lights, where multiple reflections happen and coating properties are more important, when less picky patients start to note the extra colors too: I think I recently perceived that bright carlights seem to look definitely more colored and blueish in the new PALs #3 than in PALs #2, even if Abbes and regular fringes are almost the same, but there is a totally different coating on both!

Sincerely

XW

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## AWTECH

xiaowei said:


> The first time an optician had recommended hi index lenses to me and I put them on, I found the new "colorful world" so destracting that I had those lenses soon replaced by more regular ones. Now with current 1.6, Abbe ~ 42 PALs #3 I still can easily spot those fringes when for example looking at the top of distant dark forest trees against the brighter sky, when not exactly gazing through the "color neutral" center of the lenses, (where blue fringes switch to orange ones and vice versa).


This is an excellent example of color issues often blamed on Abbe value.  The abbe of the 1.60 lens is 42 and the most the eye can benefit from as I understand is an abbe of about 40.  This can be hard coating index mismatch or light striking the edge of the lens.  I do believe many opticians jump at the abbe value as the problem, when it maybe a similar effect that is being seen by the patient, it is the cause that is something other than an abbe value lower than 40.  I personally talk to many opticians that use the reason for not using poly is the poor abbe value and then when asking them their lens material they prefer I hear 1.67, which is a low 30 abbe value.  1.60 material is produced with abbe value of over 40 and less than 34 but most opticans assume all material indexes have the same abbe value.  There are major lens manufactures who previously produced 1.60 lenses with 42 abbe and now produce the 1.60 with the lower abbe value.

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## xiaowei

> xiaowei said:
> 
> This is an excellent example of color issues often blamed on Abbe value. The abbe of the 1.60 lens is 42 and the most the eye can benefit from as I understand is an abbe of about 40. This can be hard coating index mismatch or light striking the edge of the lens. I do believe many opticians jump at the abbe value as the problem, when it maybe a similar effect that is being seen by the patient, it is the cause that is something other than an abbe value lower than 40. I personally talk to many opticians that use the reason for not using poly is the poor abbe value and then when asking them their lens material they prefer I hear 1.67, which is a low 30 abbe value. 1.60 material is produced with abbe value of over 40 and less than 34 but most opticans assume all material indexes have the same abbe value. There are major lens manufactures who previously produced 1.60 lenses with 42 abbe and now produce the 1.60 with the lower abbe value.


Arghhh, There should be an Optiboard FAQ why the "Abbe value" of the eye of about 40 has nothing todo with color fringes seen by some mindful observers behind glasses!!! 

I&#180;m referring to so-called lateral color, which appears when using an optical system off-axis. Because the eye actually has a very small field of *sharp* view itself (fovea centralis), it&#180;s own Abbe is not noticeable as lateral color, if you do not apply special measures (block 1/2 of the pupil etc.). Longitudinal color has some effect, but it only will cause slight color-dependent blurring of the object, not nicely defined rainbows at the edges of objects.

Eyeglass Abbe instead will easily cause lateral color, as the eyeglass is used at large off-axis angles when gazing around (prismatic effect), while the eye itself always remains centered on it&#180;s *OWN* axis (the whole eye rotates!).

Actually, this is a releated to a very old discussion that goes back to the invention of the achromatic lense. I remember reading there were at least two fameous guys involved (on the fame of Newton, Huygens etc.), one had measured the optical properties of all kinds of glasses and fluids available at that time and came around with the (incorrect, his measurements were not too exact) conclusion, that on all materials there is a fixed relation between refractive index and dispersion, which would mean you can not make a lense that does not disperse colors and still refract rays. The other one argued with the seemingly "dispersion free" eye, so he argued there MUST be a solution for such a lens. Both were later proved wrong, the eye has noteable color, but it&#180;s usually not seen, because of the way it works, and Dolond and other built their first achromats!

XW

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## Chris Ryser

> *Pt. has optic neuritis in the OS since '98, her visual field test shows little to no vision in the periphery.* 
> 
> *I was astonished. Talk about the WOW factor. Never seen anything like it - but don't get me wrong, this is the first totally freeform product I have dispensed.*


Second post on same patient..................




> *My first patient with the Hoya id's came in today to order 2 more pairs!
> 
> Distance - vision is clear, edge to edge. No "swim" in the periphery.
> 
> I asked if she could give me an overall rating, what percentage would she give this lens design in improvement - she said: "A Gazillion!" ("can I say that??")*


*Question..........................If patient has no peripheral vision how would she detect a "swim" or a no "swim" in the periphery ????????*

:hammer:

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## optigrrl

> Second post on same patient..................
> 
> 
> 
> *Question..........................If patient has no peripheral vision how would she detect a "swim" or a no "swim" in the periphery ????????*
> 
> :hammer:


Hi Chris. You're right, I should have been more specific as to where her periphery vision ended. The visual field test showed little to no vision in the lower temporal periphery. Additionally, the swim effect bothered her considerably because according to the patient she was more acutely aware of anything on the peripheral because of the blind spot. 

I think faster than I type and I was trying to remember all the details after the 3+ weeks it took to get the job in and dispensed.  :)

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## Chris Ryser

> *- I wonder if anyone would like to expand on that? What do you see that makes the one AR treatment definitely superior to the other one?*


Rinselberg..............Hard to tell, because they are all made with the same materials, on same the type vacuum coaters.

Lens..........hard coat, needed for adhesion to plastic lens surface,...............metal oxydes,(to give color hue) ................SIO2 (silicone dioxide).......hydrophobic pill evaporated on surface.......top slick coat. Mnay coaters do have slightly different stacks on from another.

In my book, according to information read and received, Essilor strips the existing hard coat on lenses and replaces it with one, they claim is more compatible to promote a better adhesion of the SIO2 layer. Others might do the same.

All over all the end result all the same, the application technique might vary slightly.

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## DragonLensmanWV

> Aargh! Seems the iD only comes in the 1.67 or higher. Guess I'll have to settle for the Summit instead.



AAARGH! Again! Got my account all set up with Hoya, ordered my IDs, got a call today that I am out of their range, even though it is within the range listed on the website. So I cancelled.
I am having extreme difficulty in ordering my new glasses.I had such hopes for Hoya, but it seems they are not much different than anyone else.Oh, well, there goes my shiny new relationship. :Mad:  :Mad:

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## Bill Mahnke

Quote:
AAARGH! Again! Got my account all set up with Hoya, ordered my IDs, got a call today that I am out of their range, even though it is within the range listed on the website. So I cancelled.

HOYA just expanded iD's power range:
*+8.00 to -13.00, up to -6.00 cylinder,* add .75 to 3.50

They've also added Suntech, a photochromic option to the HOYA iD product line

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## DragonLensmanWV

[quote=Bill Mahnke;163277]Quote:
AAARGH! Again! Got my account all set up with Hoya, ordered my IDs, got a call today that I am out of their range, even though it is within the range listed on the website. So I cancelled.

HOYA just expanded iD's power range:
*+8.00 to -13.00, up to -6.00 cylinder,* add .75 to 3.50

They've also added Suntech, a photochromic option to the HOYA iD product line

That's what the website said, but apparently that is not the case. They called me from Hartford to tell me that it was impossible to do mine, that the power stopped at  a combined power total of -10.00.
They did hint that it might be available in the future, but the future is not now yet. :D
I got my frame back from them yesterday. What's weird is that I had discussed it with Brian beforehand and we both went with the poweers listed as the expanded range. I'll have to call him Monday, maybe whoever called did not know of the increased power range.
I wonder how effective the Suntech coating is.<recalls AO's photochromic blue coating>

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## DragonLensmanWV

[quote=DragonLensmanWV;163539]


> Quote:
> AAARGH! Again! Got my account all set up with Hoya, ordered my IDs, got a call today that I am out of their range, even though it is within the range listed on the website. So I cancelled.
> 
> HOYA just expanded iD's power range:
> *+8.00 to -13.00, up to -6.00 cylinder,* add .75 to 3.50
> 
> They've also added Suntech, a photochromic option to the HOYA iD product line
> 
> That's what the website said, but apparently that is not the case. They called me from Hartford to tell me that it was impossible to do mine, that the power stopped at  a combined power total of -10.00.
> ...


Well, they did up the power range to -13.00 to a -6.00 cyl, however that -13.00 is for TOTAL lens power, so I'm still not eligible.
However, I just received a pair of Summit ECP SHV in 1.70 index. I am pleasantly surprised at the relatively low amount of chromatic problems with these. Seems the 1.70 has a better ABBE value than the 1.67 index. These are thin,slick, and (allowing a day to accommodate the extra -1.50 sph) very comfortable, with virtually imperceptable amounts of swim or distortion outside the add. I have noticed over the years that high minus powers do not notice the distortions the way high pluses do.

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## Bobie

What's about Shamir Autograph vs Hoyalux iD ?

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## Win C

Hi everyone,
I manage to fit a 2nd pair of ID recently. However, on delievery the result is not satisfactory. 

Patient of mine is a myope of about -3.00 and add of +2.50 both eyes.
On delievery of the 1.6 ID lens (14mm corridor lens fitting ht at 19mm) patient complaint that reading is not clear and she has to push the frame very high up the nose in order to see clearly. 

there is no problem with the PD, and fitting ht. I also adjusted the pantoscopic tilt but it didn't help. 

So I asked her to put on her old glasses (a Shamir Genesis) which has the same dist RX but with a lower add of 2.00 and she said that it;s clearer without having to push the frame high up. There is a 1 prism base up in the right lens. 

So i tried putting up the one prism in front of the new Rx but she said there is minimal difference. When I put up an additional +0.50 in front of her new Rx, she said her reading is much clearer without having to push it up her nose.

I have decided to change her lens to a shorter corridor ID rather than increasing the Add.

What do you guys think?

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## optigrrl

Hi Win!

Well, in my experience as an optician it has seemed to me that higher myopes tend to like the longer corridors in PAL's, but that's not a hard and fast rule. Maybe sending the job back to redo the lenses in the 11mm corridor that the iD comes in willl fix the problem, like you said.

My first iD patient was a higher myope as well and ended up with one of each. She preferred the 14 over the 11 so I sent that one back and had them change it for her. She was fine after that! 

I don't know what to tell you about the prism except that I would ask the Dr. why he took her out of it...

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## Win C

> Hi Win!
> 
> Well, in my experience as an optician it has seemed to me that higher myopes tend to like the longer corridors in PAL's, but that's not a hard and fast rule. Maybe sending the job back to redo the lenses in the 11mm corridor that the iD comes in willl fix the problem, like you said.
> 
> My first iD patient was a higher myope as well and ended up with one of each. She preferred the 14 over the 11 so I sent that one back and had them change it for her. She was fine after that! 
> 
> I don't know what to tell you about the prism except that I would ask the Dr. why he took her out of it...


Actually I did not find out about the prism in her old glasses until I was trouble shooting what went wrong with the Hoya ID. I am not sure why the prism was there in the old glasses. I have asked her to bring in her other pair of progressives by her previous optometrist to determined if the prism was there accidentally or it was prescribed. 

Anyone else would know what could have gone wrong?

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## cathy

We only carry Naturals, a Essilor product with a longer reading corridor and I am trying out the new Life Rx Illumina photocromatics. The reading corridor is compact, and it makes it more difficult when going from the write up table to dispense or repair a pr. I did the Captain Morgan for 2 weeks when I first started wearing PAL's 3 years ago. The only way for me to stop some of the swimming feeling was to prop one foot on a lower shelf and move my head a lot slower.  I want HOYA'S now that I have read about them. I have too many non adapts that give up going from lined to PAL'S because they can't handle the distortions. We end up remaking the lens and putting them back into lined bifocals. The improvements made in the lens technology should be used to try and encourage those previous non adapts to try this style PAL's.

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## rdcoach5

> a couple of weeks ago and I'm not easily impressed. I also have a Physio 360 and a Zeiss Individual. When I first put them on and looked around I realized that I could see clearly in all zones. I usually never wear the same pair of glasses 2 days in a row, but wanted to test them so I wore them about a week straight. I've got to say its the cleanest lens I own. This has become my new best friend. I can't find the distortion by looking through the lens anywhere.
> 
> Judy, can you give us more information on the Polycore lenses??


I have to ask-is the Rx the same? -is the base curve the same? is the frame the same? What is your pupil size?  dim light/bright? L'm getting somewhat contradictory findings depending on the person,. We must differentiate 

 Rx and add strength. We must all try to document these new lenses and their results. Any way to enter a database of new  design progressives and their results?
Bob Taylor

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## optigrrl

Did you ever find out about the prism?

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## Win C

> Did you ever find out about the prism?


Hi are you referring to my case? 

The patient just came in to test out the replacement lens . I had changed it to a shorter corridor ID. However, the lab messed up the fitting height. I wanted a fitting ht of 19, the lab edged it out to 17. :angry: 

So when the patient tried out the replacement, she needs to push the glasses up her nose (again) in order to see clearly. I have sent it back to get the lens replaced with a fitting height of 19. 

Do you reckon a 2mm difference in height will cause the reading to be worse ?

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## optigrrl

Sure - if they made the seg too low then the pt. has to travel that much further down the lens to get to the add. I mean, 2mm is alot when you consider that the average person's eyes drop about 5mm from distance viewing position to reading viewing position.

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## cathy

I agree 2 mm is a lot when talking progressive lenses. I call it taping the paper to the ceiling. If segs are incorrect then the patient walks around with lockjaw to correct a too high seg and they feel like taping the paper to the ceiling would be more effective than holding the glasses up higher. Even in lined lens, seg placement is as important as location is to real estate.

----------

