# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Essilor's progressive Identifier Engravings

## mike.elmes

I have discovered a disturbing trend by Essilor. It seems that they have decided to engrave the ellipse 360 identically to the regular ellipse. They did the same thing with the Physio and the Physio 360. Ditto with most of the newest designs.       *WHAT ARE THEY THINKING??*

As an independent Optician, I can do little but *boycott them*:angry:. If a new client walks into my shop and wants new lenses or new glasses, the first thing I do is determine the type of progressive they are wearing. If they are wearing a Physio or Ellipse, I would NOT be able to tell if it's a regular or 360 design. Also if I sell one, I would not be able to VERIFY THE LENS TYPE. 

I know of no other manufacturer that has done this.:hammer:

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## For-Life

Same with Ovation and Ovation ADS

It is dumb

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## HarryChiling

> I know of no other manufacturer that has done this.:hammer:


You might soon, if you take into consideration that the 360 is just an ellipse or physio blank digitally compensated on the back you can probably figure out why this is happening.  The balnks already have markings fresh outta the mold.  On other digital products (eg Seiko and Shamir) you can use any SV lens blank so the lens has to be marked anyway which means you will be able to distinguish it from others.  In the case of definity it only comes in a digitaly surfaced product so their is no need to distinguish the processing technique involved, after all that would be like the lab marking the lens to show it was edged with 3M pads vs others.

I would be curious to know if the Varilux 360 comes with different markings?

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## mike.elmes

All manufacturers should be forced to identify their product for verification, otherwise,
the consumer could receive the much cheaper but identically marked non digital lenses. Case in point, I ordered a pair of ellipse 360's last week for a client.....Four days later the lenses show up. I'm thinking wow, great service....but wait a minute, did I order these wrong? Nope, says the lab these are the new lenses but share the old markings. Hmmm what the heck could it cost to add a letter to the standard engravings for verification purposes, like Nikon did with their new digital i and digital Go progressives. Perhaps Essilor is poising the original designs for discontinuation? This seems unlikely.

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## HarryChiling

> All manufacturers should be forced to identify their product for verification, or
> the consumer could receive the much cheaper but identically marked bretheren.:idea:


The free form version is just optimized, their are no markings on the Rx that show anyone if they have been vertex comp'd or tilt comp'd.  If an optician is worth their weight in salt a lensclock would tell them if the back surface was traditionally surfaced or not.  It's far easier to apply knowledge than have the manufacturer engrave every lens.

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## For-Life

> All manufacturers should be forced to identify their product for verification, or
> the consumer could receive the much cheaper but identically marked  bretheren.:idea:


It is not just that, but lets say a client comes in looking for glasses.  You read the lenses and find that they are Ovations.  Do them up, and now (s)he comes back and says that they cannot see through them.  After further information, you find that it is not that they cannot see out of them, but they cannot see as clearly as the ones before.  You check the rx's and they are the same.  You over-refract, and you find it is dead on.  They leave with a tongue in cheek and look down on you for not providing what they are used to.

Why?  Because the last person put the patient in ADS and you put them in regular.  The difference is slight, but it is noticeable.

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## HarryChiling

> It is not just that, but lets say a client comes in looking for glasses. You read the lenses and find that they are Ovations. Do them up, and now (s)he comes back and says that they cannot see through them. After further information, you find that it is not that they cannot see out of them, but they cannot see as clearly as the ones before. You check the rx's and they are the same. You over-refract, and you find it is dead on. They leave with a tongue in cheek and look down on you for not providing what they are used to.
> 
> Why? Because the last person put the patient in ADS and you put them in regular. The difference is slight, but it is noticeable.


For-Life,

A simple change in the way you would check these lenses would give you the information you would need to determine which flavor oavtion the patient was wearing and avoid Essilor having to pass the additional cost of laser engraving every lens onto the opticians that can and will take the time to figure it out.

I understand the point that the lenses look identical but will behave differently, but that could be said about any traditional lens as prgressives have a tolerance for warpage as 1.00 D here in the states.

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## rbaker

> The free form version is just optimized, their are no markings on the Rx that show anyone if they have been vertex comp'd or tilt comp'd.  If an optician is worth their weight in salt a lensclock would tell them if the back surface was traditionally surfaced or not.  It's far easier to apply knowledge than have the manufacturer engrave every lens.


But then, what if the lens clock showed traditional standard base and cross curves while the invoice indicated a "premium" product. 

With the skill of the opticianry craft declining and the marketing of lens products increasing the labs have a wonderful opportunity to foist of inferior product on the unsuspecting eyewear sales person. There is only one solution and marking ain't it.

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## mike.elmes

I would like to hear directly from an Essilor rep as to why this is being done. I will contact the OLA and see what the rules and regs are.

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## HarryChiling

> But then, what if the lens clock showed traditional standard base and cross curves while the invoice indicated a "premium" product. 
> 
> With the skill of the opticianry craft declining and the marketing of lens products increasing the labs have a wonderful opportunity to foist of inferior product on the unsuspecting eyewear sales person. There is only one solution and marking ain't it.


Then they say it's too subtle for your lensclock to pick up, theri lenses are that sophisticated. :D




> I will contact the OLA and see what the rules and regs are.


?

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## RT

> I will contact the OLA and see what the rules and regs are.


The OLA (Optical Laboratories Assocation, www.ola-labs.org) is a trade association represeting laboratories.  They would have no rules or regulations concerning the engraving marks on semi-finished lens blanks.  The OLA does, however, compile a reference guide to those markings for member labs and their customers.

The VCA (Vision Council of America, www.visionsite.org) has both a Direct Surfacing Task Force and a Lens Marking Task Force.  Both of these committees are working toward voluntary standards that might relate to your concern of identifying products that have customized or non-traditional surfaces (including back-surface-only progressives), among other topics.  The next meeting of both committees is prior to Vision Expo East, April 9-10, 2008.

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## Freedom

*In Thailand have ... the same ploblem*
*I cannot Identified between Physio and Physio 360.*

*I avoid this ploblem by ... I NOT sale the product Physio.*

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## treysdad

If you know the brand and you know the RX, won't you have a pretty good idea which one it is?  Also, if it is a lesser RX and in a 360, can they really tell the difference anyway?

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## HarryChiling

Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.

Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.

How to tell the difference, USE A LENS CLOCK ON THE BACK SURFAEC OF THE LENS.

If the lens surface is spherical or toric, then it's the Physio.
If the lens surface it aspheric or atoric, then it's the Physio 360.

You know I used to catch flack fro not believeing the hype about digitally surfaced lenses since the manufacturere's don't provide me with enough information to determine when it is necessary and when it's not, and then I hear opticiasn complaining about markings?

You Canadian guys especially since the Alberta Standard of Practice page 3 first bulleted list item 3 is a lens guage.  I am sure they would want you guys to use it, this would be a great way to seperate the weak from the flock.  Let them complian about fitting patients in the wrong lens and all you need to do is clock every physio to see which processing was employed.  It might be nice to even set this as a price on a price list, traditional vs. digital.  I have a feeling real soon we will start seeing aspheric and atoric surfaces applied to every progressive on the market.

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## Robert Martellaro

> Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.


Ok.




> Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.


Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it _can_ be aspheric or atoric? In other words, might the 360 line of lenses use spherical or toric curves even though that surface is generated with free-form technology?

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## HarryChiling

> Ok.
> 
> Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it _can_ be aspheric or atoric? In other words, might the 360 line of lenses use spherical or toric curves even though that surface is generated with free-form technology?


You might be right there, heck if the base is right and the Rx is right you might even get a spherical curve on the back of a physio with no difference.  The point is that it should be easily identifiable if a little knowledge is applied.  The use of these highly sophisticated lenses should not be put in just anyones hands (For-Life and mike.elmes I know you guys are great opticians).  I just think it would be nice to leave some thinking in our industry.

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## jediron1

> You might be right there, heck if the base is right and the Rx is right you might even get a spherical curve on the back of a physio with no difference.  The point is that it should be easily identifiable if a little knowledge is applied.  The use of these highly sophisticated lenses should not be put in just anyones hands (For-Life and mike.elmes I know you guys are great opticians).  I just think it would be nice to leave some thinking in our industry.



I think you and Robert are basically saying the same thing. I think what it comes down to is that when in the office setting at times it gets busy and you would like an easy way to tell the slight differences between the lenses without having to pull out your protractor and trying to calculate the angles and curves to see if it's a physio or physio 360.  just my take :cheers:

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## HarryChiling

> I think you and Robert are basically saying the same thing. I think what it comes down to is that when in the office setting at times it gets busy and you would like an easy way to tell the slight differences between the lenses without having to pull out your protractor and trying to calculate the angles and curves to see if it's a physio or physio 360. just my take :cheers:


I don't think it's too dificult to figue it out, but who knows a couple people seem to be irratated enough to not use the lenses so it must be a nuisance, right.  Anyway leave the protractor out of it and grab the lens clock. ;)

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## jediron1

> I don't think it's too dificult to figue it out, but who knows a couple people seem to be irratated enough to not use the lenses so it must be a nuisance, right.  Anyway leave the protractor out of it and grab the lens clock. ;)



Oh come on Harry that old protractor I had to dust off and your right some do seem a little agitated over it I'm not I was just trying to give a reason why some might be.  just my take  :Cool:

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## mike.elmes

> Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.
> 
> Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.
> 
> How to tell the difference, USE A LENS CLOCK ON THE BACK SURFAEC OF THE LENS.
> 
> If the lens surface is spherical or toric, then it's the Physio.
> If the lens surface it aspheric or atoric, then it's the Physio 360.
> 
> ...


Harry, I doubt its quite as simple as you might think....toric back surface or atoric?? I mastered the use of a lens clock 25 years ago. It wasn't invented for that purpose I can assure you. The consumer is at risk of being sold digital and being duped for regular. Now the Comfort digital is out and let me see.....the same markings as the regular comfort.:finger: I spoke to a rep who suggested maybe a holograph like Nikon uses.

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## HarryChiling

> Harry, I doubt its quite as simple as you might think....toric back surface or atoric?? I mastered the use of a lens clock 25 years ago. It wasn't invented for that purpose I can assure you.


Mike,

It was invented to measure curves, if you move the clock across the back surface and it changes the lens in aspheric which can only be applied by use of FF processing, if you get a spherical or toric curve then it can be processed by either FF or traditionla surfaceing.  As for the customer being duped, there is a right Rx for every base physio that will perform just like the physio 360, and the manufacturer doesn't feel it necessary to let you or me know which Rx this is, how's that for duped.

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## Mauro.Airoldi

The esy way to verify if you have a standard progressive lens (progression on CX) or a freeform (progressione on CC) is verify where is the laser sign. On standard are on CX, (because the RX is done on CC).
The freeform sign is on CC, because the laser is used only ad the end of the costrudtion (before deblocking the lens) and the CX face is cover from the blocker.
 :Cool:

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## NickJohnson2008

> The esy way to verify if you have a standard progressive lens (progression on CX) or a freeform (progressione on CC) is verify where is the laser sign. On standard are on CX, (because the RX is done on CC).
> The freeform sign is on CC, because the laser is used only ad the end of the costrudtion (before deblocking the lens) and the CX face is cover from the blocker.


Mauro,

Let me be sure I understand. Are you saying for the Essilor Physio (not 360) you can look at the convex side of the lens and the engraving will read left to right: "H" - " e with rays pointing to the left" - "Pi" (Greek letter) but if it is the Physio "360" the engraving will be on the concave side and therefore when reading it from the front (convex side) it will be reversed: from left to right: "Pi" - "e with rays pointing right" - "H" 

Is that correct? Thanks.

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## Mauro.Airoldi

> Mauro,
> 
> Let me be sure I understand. Are you saying for the Essilor Physio (not 360) you can look at the convex side of the lens and the engraving will read left to right: "H" - " e with rays pointing to the left" - "Pi" (Greek letter) but if it is the Physio "360" the engraving will be on the concave side and therefore when reading it from the front (convex side) it will be reversed: from left to right: "Pi" - "e with rays pointing right" - "H" 
> 
> Is that correct? Thanks.


 
Then you read from cx side you read correct every time(freeform or not) because in std. progressive laser sig is on cx and is write in correct way.
on freeform laser sig is on cc but is write in opposite way.
to be clear
if yo look from cx you see
it is a std shamir progressive

the same is for 
it is a shamir freeform

but realy the laser printing, done on cc is 

it's not easy understand the side where is done the laser but you can angolate the lens in reference of the light and it became esy.

I hope to be understandable, if not let me know.

Mauro

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## NickJohnson2008

Mauro,Thank you for the detailed explanation.I probably confused this issue because I &quot;assumed&quot; (INCORRECTLY) that the Varilix Physio 360 was ground on both convex and concave surfaces like the Shamir you mention.I have learned that it is NOT! The Physio blank is used for the Physio 360 and both are ground only on the concave surface.  Apparently the &quot;360's&quot; surfacing (concave side) is different from the regular Physio and incorporates additional wavelet digital surfacing but there is no way for a consumer to tell the difference because the identification is on the convex surface of the blank (from the mould which casts in the wavelet design).After this was explained to me I looked back at the Varilux website and their statements are consistent with this explanation but in my first reading I certainly got the impression they were &quot;ground&quot; on both front and back as I believe a few other forum members seemed to think so I wanted to correct my remarks before I reinforced that misinformation.

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## Scott

> Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.
> 
> Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.


Let me understand this, Physio & 360 are produced from the same molds, just produced on different platforms? From what i understand producing a molded lens on a FF generator only makes it more accurate and does nothing to change the design of the lens. Sounds to me like Essilor has done another great marketing job.

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## Mauro.Airoldi

> Let me understand this, Physio & 360 are produced from the same molds, just produced on different platforms? From what i understand producing a molded lens on a FF generator only makes it more accurate and does nothing to change the design of the lens. Sounds to me like Essilor has done another great marketing job.


I play on italian market and so I can't see your lenses but to solved any question Pls. verify if the laser printing is on CX or CC, in first case the mold is special one for proigressive, in second case (only CC) the lens is a powere only by FF.
For my informations the Physio 360 are standard lenses and power and progression are made non CC (by FF).
My experiance is only on Creation and Autograph by Shamir (we produce it in our factory), but i don't think the Physio 360 has a different CX (you can verify if it is asferical)
Let me know, i'm interesting to the answer

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## Andrew Weiss

Essilor's 360 series uses the same basic concept as Rodenstock's old Multigressiv 2 lenses.  You may remember: the Multigressiv 2 was a Life 2 with a freeform digitally-ground back surface.  Only Rodenstock was smart enough to use blanks with different markings for the Multigressiv :); something apparently Essilor is not doing  :Mad: .

If Essilor can put the time and $$ into creating a separate series of markings for their Vision Source progressives, you'd think they could do it for their 360 series. ;)

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## Crickett13

I think the best solution is to order the Shamir Autograph instead :bbg:

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## HarryChiling

> I think the best solution is to order the Shamir Autograph instead :bbg:


Here here.

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## Fezz

> I think the best solution is to order the Shamir Autograph instead :bbg:



From who?

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## Crickett13

> From who?


I hear some guy up in NY State who is an optiboard subscriber is selling them now.:bbg: 

  He even put up a thread in the marketplace forum called Want my Autograph for free? Where he offered to make free pairs for optiboard members who were interested. 

  You should check it out.:idea:

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## Fezz

> I hear some guy up in NY State who is an optiboard subscriber is selling them now.:bbg: 
> 
>   He even put up a thread in the marketplace forum called Want my Autograph for free? Where he offered to make free pairs for optiboard members who were interested. 
> 
>   You should check it out.:idea:



Maybe I'll give that guy a call!

Thanks!

:D:cheers:;):cheers::D

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## Crickett13

> Maybe I'll give that guy a call!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> :D:cheers:;):cheers::D


I heard that he is waiting in breathless anticipation for that call.:cheers:

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