# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Zeiss and Walmart

## fvc2020

Hello


My friend who works as a Zeiss expect fitter(whatever)was told that Zeiss has agreed to sell to Walmart their full line of products:angry:   The rep told her that it was a decision from Europe Zeiss(whatever it is called) and the American side was very mad.  Now I know that Walmart has their coating, but now it seems that they are going to have Gradals, Brevity etc....How does everyone one feel about this?


Christina

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## sjthielen

I have spoken to one of the heads at Zeiss and was told that will be selling a zeiss lens that is specific to walmart. It is not the same technology as the gradal top or individuals. By the way Essilor does the same thing in lenscrafters. Its not what you sell but how you sell it.

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## For-Life

My lab rep told me that Walmart (Canada at least) is moving away from Essilor and is now going to use Nikon and Rodenstock.

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## Chris Ryser

> *sjthielen said:* 
> 
> I have spoken to one of the heads at Zeiss and was told that will be selling a zeiss lens that is specific to walmart. It is not the same technology as the gradal top or individuals.


I would just like to remind you that in the 1960's and early 1970's
AMERICAN OPTICAL used to sell a cheaper lens brand than their famous corrected curve "Tyllier" lenses to South America and Canada.

It then turned out to be the Tyllier lens in another envelope. AO executives admitted that it was cheaper this way than to get equiped with more tooling to make another lens curve.

Just package the same stuff in another dress and it becomes a different product sold to other market interest's.

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## keithbenjamin

I also believe Walmart Optical isn't allowed to use the Zeiss name in their marketing.

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## PAkev

I heard rumor of this a few months ago so it wasn't such a bombshell to me when my rep broke the news.

YES I am disappointed that a company which prides themseve's in premium quality optics steps into the value arena.  Regardless if it is a different lens than their premium designs I can guarantee Wal Mart will be tooting their horn about offering  the Zeiss name brand.  

Our Zeiss Gradal Top lenses just took a price hike of nearly 10%.........Ouch......Now only $25.00 less than Definity free form technology which can command a much higher profit margin and is not available from VALUE retailers.   I certainly don't want it to be construed as "making an excuse" when mrs jones points out her Zeiss PAL package is $50 less at Wal Mart than our place and I try to explain the difference in the lens designs.    I therefore plan to see  how this affects us and in the mean time evaluate althernatives.

I am guessing the higher powers at Zeiss realized the potential of a cause and effect reaction and put more value  in an attractive contract.

my .02
Kevin

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## mrba

Kieth,
Its only a matter of time before Walmart markets Zeiss as a name brand.

I can't believe Zeiss would be so stupid though.  Walmart tends to decimate it's suppliers profit margins. (can we all say Valasic pickles)

I'm sure that Pete will be here any minute telling us the ovation and Panamic aren't the same thing... so I wont say it.  But I love the fact people bring up about putting the same lens in a different package.

heehehahahahahaheehehaw:hammer:

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## drk

Therefore, Zeiss is more interested in the almightly dollar (deutchmark?) than the US Optical profession.  I'd bet if we put a Walmart Optical in their backyard, they'd be whistling a different tune! 

This reminds me of the contact lens manufacturers, who will sell to anyone, including online retailers.

The solution should be for us to emphasize service and expertise, and not necessarily products.  We are more than what we sell!   We are experts that analyze problems and solve them with products that we choose.  

We can't trust any materials companies to look out for us, since they operate under a different set of principles than we do:  they want to make a buck, and we are supposed to help people first, and be compensated for our expertise secondly.  

If Zeiss is coming to the masses, then we have to be ready to step it up with individualized progressives, etc.   Not to keep up with the Joneses, but to realize that the markets have made it possible for your average Joe to get a fine progressive, and now the market is making it possible for us to move to higher levels.  Zeiss wouldn' t be selling their Gradal out for cheap unless they felt that the technology was going by the wayside.  It's just too bad that their name will be sullied, regardless of how careful they try to be.

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## mrba

Euros in germany.  And I hear Walmart owns a bunch of schneider generators.  They will be doing free form soon enouph.

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## sjthielen

product and technology is not what makes me better than my competition, skill and expertize is.

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## For-Life

> *mrba said:* 
> Kieth,
> Its only a matter of time before Walmart markets Zeiss as a name brand.
> 
> I can't believe Zeiss would be so stupid though.  Walmart tends to decimate it's suppliers profit margins. (can we all say Valasic pickles)
> 
> I'm sure that Pete will be here any minute telling us the ovation and Panamic aren't the same thing... so I wont say it.  But I love the fact people bring up about putting the same lens in a different package.
> 
> heehehahahahahaheehehaw:hammer:


I do not have any fact infront of me, but I can get both the Ovation and the Panamic.  I am very sure that they are different.  Funny thing is that my patients seem to like the Ovation better.

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## mrba

Unfortunately you nor I have any means to prove our thoughts on this... but I could point to a long history of un truths that this industry has propogated in the past... And that some old fogys tend to still believe.

"If you don't backside cote a poly it will tint darker" is just one exapmple...

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## Cindy Hamlin

> *Chris Ryser said:* 
> It then turned out to be the Tyllier lens in another envelope. AO executives admitted that it was cheaper this way than to get equiped with more tooling to make another lens curve.
> 
> Just package the same stuff in another dress and it becomes a different product sold to other market interest's.


Chris,
Wasn't this how B&L got into the problems they had with their CLs and the class action suit?

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## For-Life

> *mrba said:* 
> Unfortunately you nor I have any means to prove our thoughts on this... but I could point to a long history of un truths that this industry has propogated in the past... And that some old fogys tend to still believe.
> 
> "If you don't backside cote a poly it will tint darker" is just one exapmple...


I feel that sometimes our industry is fueled too much by marketing.  I mean, if you go to any lens website you will not see helpful information, just propaganda.  It is really unfortunately.  However, the marketing does push for the better.

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## keithbenjamin

> I feel that sometimes our industry is fueled too much by marketing. I mean, if you go to any lens website you will not see helpful information, just propaganda. It is really unfortunately. However, the marketing does push for the better.


This coming from the person who rarely has written a post without the words Essilor, Varilux, Airwear, or Crizal and frequently followed by "is the best." ;)

Sorry, For-Life... couldn't resist.:bbg:

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## mrba

I would love to buy into the Essior story line.  My only problem Is evertime I make an effort to spiel the story, they come out with new marketing that makes me look dumb to my customers (22hi, no 20hi, ok 18 works)...

My other problem is my brain just can't fit all of the marketing in...

I would like a Crizal AR coated airware poly ultra litestyle varilux panamic with alize in a nikon performance package please...And while I'm at it I will send it to an ELOA lab named...

and so on and so forth.

not to be negative or anything.  I just need a simple life. 
 :Confused:

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## For-Life

> *keithbenjamin said:* 
> This coming from the person who rarely has written a post without the words Essilor, Varilux, Airwear, or Crizal and frequently followed by "is the best." ;)
> 
> Sorry, For-Life... couldn't resist.:bbg:


No, you are right.  Remember I do have my Honours of Bachalors degree in marketing, so that can be why.  The thing is I am seeing Essilor do a lot of big things and I do not see anyone else do them (Stock Club, RX club, Ispeso).  So that is why I like them.  I also have never had problems with their coatings, where I have had with many other companies.

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## Johns

Pakev:

If you don't carry Zeiss, you won't have to worry about comparison shoppers.

Problem solved!

(I don't carry Safilo for the same reason; too many WM shoppers were price shopping them with me.)


DRK:

Welcome to Optiboard!


As far as "operarting under a different set of principals" goes:

No, I don't expect any company to "look out for me".  I deal with companies that are profit driven, and they derive their profit by delivering quality products and quaility services.  On the other hand, I try not to buy from companies that charge independents high prices, so that the WMs of the world (and the LCs) can pay less.

As far as the reason I'm in this profession...

I'm profit driven as well.  I expect to make a profit by delivering quality products and quality services.  I can't help but be of service to my patients, but that is not the reason I got into this profession.  The Peace Corps is a great avenue if you are looking to help people. (VOSH is even better!)

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## sjthielen

Johns you may want to concentrate on letting patients know that you are a better optician than those at WM.  That will make them purchase with you regardless ofyour prices.  In my market we are not even close to being the lowest price but patients that price shop almost always choose us. Hmmm I wonder why?

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## mrba

I like to hear independants talk about how they are better than so and so, whether or not its WM or otherwise.

Although I am familiar with stories of "chain optician" incompetance, somewhere out there, perhaps closer than you think, there is an optician at WM who is better than you... Perhaps better than anyone on opti board.

Humility please.:drop:

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## Chris Ryser

> *Cindy Hamlin said:* 
> Chris,
> Wasn't this how B&L got into the problems they had with their CLs and the class action suit?


Cindy,

I am sorry but I could not comment on  CL questions as this is one domaine in the optical I was never in and admit to be ignorant.

However I know that B&L had made some stupid moves before the CL started abd had pulled out of lens business.

However American Optical sold their AMOPTIC lenses, which were the 'Tyllier"brand as seconds for many years. I used to buy them when I had my wholesale Lab.

*We should not forget that the economy world wide is in a slump and this seems to affect everybody these days.* 

We do make and sell some items that are used in manufacturing of lenses to many of the large corporations and their purchasing slowed down and has becomne irregular. Some month a little more again and then there is another drop. No steady flow of orders.

*When a manufacturer starts feeling the crunch of the economy he looks to boost sales.* 

As the regular sales channels are saturated and do not produce any increases but a slow down, he has to look for other way's to make sales.

Zeiss had always been protective of the professional markets. In the 1950's they refused to sell to the President of the German optical master association because he has opened a store on t6he 2nd floor of a commercial building. 2nd floor offices were considered discount store at the time.
Zeiss finally backed off after the opticians in the affected stores would ask customers:" Would you like a ZEISS lens or something better?"

Times have changed, but most probably if ZEISS does sell to WalMart it will boost their sales considerably and *they will not have to worry about any lashback by the optical retail trade which is still in love with Luxottica, even that they are becoming an optical flesh-eating disease by controlling 35% of the optical retail market.
*

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## Cowboy

Not to long ago, I was speaking with my lab-rep and he was telling me that Zeiss is going to be introducing a new product that will be as tough if not tougher than Crizal. If this is the case, anything that Zeiss has been producing will become an inferior product and therefore they will introduce it to the discount houses at inferior prices. This opens the door to the privates to offer a new premire product that would not be permitted to the WM's and such. However, I believe this to be a double edge blade as Zeiss will be contradicting themselves. How can a company claim to be a quality manufacturer when playing bothsides of the fence? If Mrs. Jones went price shopping and was quoted for a Zeiss Ar at $xx but you offer it higher, where is Mrs. Jones going to go? All she hears is Zeiss. What you are expressing to her about the quality difference is in one side and out the other. To me What Zeiss has done has created a wrinkle in their own product delivery. They want to boost sales, but ousting the private is not the way to do it.

:cheers: 

Cowboy

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## jediron1

Chris,
Wasn't this how B&L got into the problems they had with their CLs and the class action suit?


__________________
~Cindy

Cindy you are right. B&L tried to repackage some of there lenses
by calling them different names, same product but a different name. If I remember correctly they hit upon the idea of highlighting another characteristic of the lens where by exploiting
the lens as another version, even though it was the same lens.
:drop:

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## jediron1

sjthielen said:
I have spoken to one of the heads at Zeiss and was told that will be selling a zeiss lens that is specific to walmart. It is not the same technology as the gradal top or individuals. By the way Essilor does the same thing in lenscrafters. Its not what you sell but how you sell it.

It all comes down to money. WM shoves enough money in there 
face and they crack and fold and roll over like a puppy dog saying, we will do what ever you want just show us the green baby! Zeiss is like any other company they want to make money 
any way they can.

"It was the best of times and it was the worst of times"
Charles Dickens

:hammer: :drop:

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## Chris Ryser

> *Cowboy said:* 
> 
> Not to long ago, I was speaking with my lab-rep and he was telling me that Zeiss is going to be introducing a new product that will be as tough if not tougher than Crizal. .........................
> 
> :cheers: 
> 
> Cowboy


Cowboy,

Even ZEISS can not make a tougher AR coating than Crizal. All AR coatings are made with the same ingredients, the same material which isSIO2. And they are all the same and made with the same materials.

As Pete has explained very methodically, the secret is to have a good hard coat which bonds the SIO2 layer to a plastic lens, on which the AR coating would delaminate very fast without without it.

Sales reps always twist the tryth a bit in their favour.







> *sjthielen  said:* 
>  have spoken to one of the heads at Zeiss and was told that will be selling a zeiss lens that is specific to walmart. It is not the same technology as the gradal top or individuals. By the way Essilor does the same thing in lenscrafters. Its not what you sell but how you sell it.



Very simple again take lens out of envelope A and package it in envelope WM and you have a different product.
No manufacturer will make different product because he's picked a new large account.

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## drk

What about this: we give a "better experience" in private opticals?  

Maybe I'm a foolish snob, but I would not grocery shop in a Walmart (although I've tried it, once) because it's "icky", and I would expect the same would apply to purchasing glasses.  The only reason a person would go to Walmart for anything is to get a good price.  You sacrifice entirely in "experience"...it's crowded, noisy, unsavory, and lowest-common-denominator-oriented, albeit full of sunshine and patriotism.  

In my opinion, Walmart doesn't even NEED a good lens like a Gradal, because people there don't care about quality or they wouldn't be there.  I'm sure Zeiss thinks they need Walmart more than vice-versa.

Having said that, WE MUST provide the better environment, decor, service, quality, manners, etc., etc., as well as the best products we can get to stay differentiated.  We must be the anti-Walmarts or anti-Luxotticaretailoutlets.  

Yeah, I know, it's the S.O.S.  It just does me good to say it.

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## Texas Ranger

Seems to me that WM has really been pushing Rodenstock lenses of late? Anyway, what difference does it make whether ANY competitor has what you have, and sells it for whatever they sell it for? you need to concentrate on things that YOU have some control over, like how well you take care of the people that ARE IN your office, including yourself and the people you work with, and work to create the kind of atmosphere that clients are comfortable in.  Evaluate your shop from "outside the box". perhaps get someone else's perspective. work to get feedback from your clients. contact your clients with a letter, newsletter, let them know what's new, appreciate them, thank them for referrals, and by all means sell a quality product. if you do finish work, send out the jobs you don't feel "expert" in doing. Sure Zeiss is a good lens design, but 90% of PAL fitting is with the experience of the optician. what I see most when I get pts back that "tried to save money" on their glasses, is a lot of mis measuring, misaligned glasses; I hear " they had to make them over 4 times, and they've never been right" at least once a day...so, don't worry so much about what WM or anyone else does, just look in the mirror, and know that you're going to do the best YOU can do, and keep smiling...

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## PAkev

Our local Wal-Mart has a perpetual sign in front of their optical.... "Optical Sales Associate Position Available, Please see optical manager for details"  

What it takes to make anyone an optical expert differs in everyones own expectations but I certainly wouldn't classify the person who was selling sneakers a few weeks ago as an optician.

Now that WM is selling ZEISS product it will be interesting to see how they classify their ZEISS experts compared to the true professionals who have contributed to their success.

Kevin

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## CME4SPECS

sjthielen said: 

I have spoken to one of the heads at Zeiss and was told that will be selling a zeiss lens that is specific to walmart. It is not the same technology as the gradal top or individuals. 

Just think about this. They'll now have an exclusive lens that we can't get.

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## Chris Ryser

> *CME4SPECS said:* 
> 
> Just think about this. They'll now have an exclusive lens that we can't get.


* No problem...........same lens ......different package*

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## mrba

I think you are all misinformed.

Am I mistaken in stating that Zeiss Carat has a higher Bayer rating than Crizal?

And isn't it a fact that Carat had it's "clean coat" before Alize?

If you are really in the know, correct me.

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## CME4SPECS

Chris, you know that, I know that. But the consumer won't know it.
WM can say, Mrs Jones we are proud to offer you this exclusive Zeiss lens that is not available anywhere else!

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## Chris Ryser

> *mrba said:* 
> 
> I think you are all misinformed.
> 
> If you are really in the know, correct me.



AR coatings are *ALL* the same, namely SIO2 (silicat -quartz) that has been applied under vacuum. One can apply some multiple layers.

The only difference from one to the next product is the hard coat needed to make the coating adhere to the plastic lens, (not needed on mineral lenses).

If this hard coating is perfect the lens will last, if not, it will delaminate down the road.

*It does not matter what under what name, brand or claim the AR coated lens is sold they are all coated with the same material = SIO2 only the workmanship might differ.*

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## Peter Z

Chris,

While all plastic A/R coating typically use SIO2 (Quartz) this is only one of the layer materials.  There can and is a vast difference in A/R coating stacks and how they can get applied.  For Example,  The Essilor Crizal uses ZRO2 as their hi-index layer.  Some other suppliers use TIO2 which tends to be softer than ZRO2 material which will change the bayer ratio test.

It also matters if they use and Ion Source during the evaporation since this will make the layer harder (also more brittle) and again influence the bayer results.  The hydrophobic layer can also influence the bayer test as well.

Any way,  The Zeiss Carat has about the same Bayer as the Essilor Crizal or they are very close.    Both are very good products and tend to work well in the market.   Essilor Crizal ALize is better then the Carat today but this will change as Zeiss gets around to using the same Hydrophobic coating as Essilor is using which is manufactured in Japan and in which anyone can purchase the material.

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## Chris Ryser

Peter,

Thanks for the clarification. Glad that the knowdlegable postings are coming forward.

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## mrba

I have found that SET w/o the carat or under coat doesn't fall off nearly as much as other house brands (satis or otherwise).

Is SET layered better or something.  Our redo rate with SET is about 3-4% and CARAT/CRIZAL 1%

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## paw

If you know anything about WM, you know that they may carry the same brand and the appearance of the same model as another store, but the reason WM charges less is that said model is a lesser quality or lesser "bell and whistles" version of the model the other store carries.

Suppliers simply can not provide WM what they demand at the price they demand it without skimping on something.

Same goes with AR coating.

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## Va.LDO

I talked to a rep at Zeiss they said the lens they are selling to WM is the new Brevity lens under a WM label. They also said WM is selling it as their Prem. package with A/R  for about $250. The samething at Sams Clubs for about $198.

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## Jim Stone

> *sjthielen said:* 
> I have spoken to one of the heads at Zeiss and was told that will be selling a zeiss lens that is specific to walmart. It is not the same technology as the gradal top or individuals. By the way Essilor does the same thing in lenscrafters. Its not what you sell but how you sell it.


  LOL  Yea  right!  LOL

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## mdennon

Group,

It appears there are some concerns and confusion about Zeiss lens product availability in WalMart/Sam's Clubs.
What follows is a list of the lens products that we currently over to  the independent eyecare professional market as well as what we currently offer to WalMart/Sam's Club.

Independent Market:
Semi-Finished Progressive Plastic Lenses:
Gradal Top 1.5
Gradal Top 1.5 w/o hard coating
Gradal Top 1.5 Transitions NG Gray/Brown
Gradal Top 1.6
Gradal Top 1.67
Gradal Top 1.67 Transitions Gray
Gradal Top 1.59 Polycarbonate
Gradal Top 1.59 Polycarbonate Transitions Gray
Gradal Top 1.59 Polycarbonate Polarized Gray
Gradal Brevity 1.5
Gradal Brevity 1.67
Gradal RD 1.5
Gradal HS 1.5
Zeiss Business
Finished Progressive Plastic Lenses:
Gradal Individual 1.6
Gradal Short i 1.6
Semi-Finished Progressive Glass Lenses:
Gradal Top 1.6 Clear Glass
Gradal Top 1.6 Photochromic Gray Glass
Single Vision Lenses/Semi-Finished:
Clarlet 1.67 AS
Single Vision Lenses/Finished:
Clarlet 1.5 Super ET
Clarlet 1.6 AS Super ET
Clarlet 1.67 AS 

WalMart/Sam's Club:
Zeiss Experience 1.67 (semi-finished progressive)
Clarlet 1.67 AS (single vision, avail finished and semi-finished)

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## drk

Thank you for the clarification.  
Please comment: 

Is the "Experience" lens just a repackaged "Gradal Top"? 

How does your company reconcile its position as an industry leader in quality and product placement in the epitome of a discount optical chain?

How can an independant optical tout the "Zeiss" brand name as a top-of-the-line lens when a patient can say "My sister just got the same Zeiss lens at Wal-Mart for cheap!  Why are you selling me Wal-Mart lenses, Dr.?"

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## mrba

Is DRK playing devil's advocate for Zeiss??!!

Lets refocus DRK's question.  By selling Zeiss, WM tarnishes the impression/perception of higher end customers, that it is the best.

An important distinction, since if WM did sell Gradal, it would make the lens itself no different.  You either belive it is the best irrespective of WM or you don't.  And if you are high and mighty on that spiel you should still sell the best b/c you are the best!!!

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## fvc2020

Thanks for such a strong response from everyone. 

It seems that no one is sure(including the Zeiss guy)what recently happened.  According to my friend what he stated is currently true, but was told that was changing.  

I hope Zeiss realizes that this a mistake.  Those of us in private want to use the best and its hard when someone can get it cheaper at wallyworld(I know this was already said).

Thanks 
christina

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## UFRich

One more thing to be concerned with is if Zeiss does truly mass produce a lense for WM that the quality is below the Gradal Top, what is to stop them from packaging that lense as Gradal Top and selling it to the independant to increase its profit margin? :Confused:  


UFRICH:cheers:

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## Chris Ryser

*One more point for the forum members..................* 

I just would like to mention that all of participating forum members should realize that over the last little while if a subject was followed with intensity like this thread it brings out the defense teams of the companies affected to clear the air.

I would assume that this board seems to be watched by all sorts of people and does get response.

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## mrba

UFRICH

Why whould they need WM to do that.  They could do that on their own!

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## drk

MRBA:
I've appreciated your responses to my posts; they have been helpful.   

I'm certainly not trying to help Zeiss out, for sure.  

Is your point that regardless of who is selling what, we should sell what we think is the best?  If that's your point, I guess I agree.  I wouldn't shoot my patient's nose off to spite Wal-Mart's face.

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## mrba

On that point yes.  However if you do not want to support the enemy there is an out.  Gradal is an excellent lens for general purpose no doubt.  Probably the first to produce a higher standard than "I don't get any non adapts" such as crisper optics, wider zones etc.

There is an important point however to remember, in that most manufacturers want you to think that one lens fits all.  In fact there are different desighns that serve different purposes.  Although Gradal is my lens of choice, there are several others in given situations that I would use.

Hope that helps.  And for what its worth I don't know of a manufacturer that doesn't sell to a chain.  I was told yesterday evening if you call WM and ask for a price quote on a varilux you can get one!!! Would be fun to try no? (not sure if its true) I know its a fact at Lenscrafters.

Just be aware they are in bed with everyone in one form or another.

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## For-Life

Can someone name the lens companies that do not deal with the chains?

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## mrba

Signet Armorlite???

Kodak Concise (very cool lens)

I could be wrong... in one way or another either in the US or elsewhere they are all evil!

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## paw

Mrba said, "I was told yesterday evening if you call WM and ask for a price quote on a varilux you can get one!!! Would be fun to try no? (not sure if its true)"

A few weeks ago when I was price checking, I did just that:  I called WM and pretended I was a customer wanting to replace my Varilux Comfort lenses (in reality I don't even wear bifocals!) and asked what their price was on Varilux Comfort.  They told me I would have to come in and it would depend on my Rx.

I interpret that statement to mean "We don't carry Comfort lenses, but come in so we can switch you into something we sell."  

Interesting that they had no trouble quoting me a price for FT28.

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## mrba

I doubt they are that shrewd.  I will call today and let you all know!

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## mrba

BINGO!!!

Called Wal Mart today. Quoted 390-400 for a "Varilux" Comfort.  I was also told they have something similar called the "Natural Comfort" for $170.  They scolded me for buying it at a private eyedoctor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So there you have it!


comfort=natural
panamic=ovation

same friggin lens.

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## For-Life

> *mrba said:* 
> Signet Armorlite???
> 
> Kodak Concise (very cool lens)
> 
> I could be wrong... in one way or another either in the US or elsewhere they are all evil!


America's Best sells the navigator and the kodak concise.

Also, I can get the Natural, Adapter, Panamic, Comfort, and Super Noline here, so I doubt that a couple of them are the same.

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## CME4SPECS

I think if I was in the lens manufacturing business that the first doors I'd be knocking on would be Wal Mart and Lenscrafters!
If you are so coNvinced that Zeiss in WM it is going to impact your PAL sales... go to another brand. Many others out there work well. 
I've never fit any Zeiss lenses and I can't recall anyone ever asking for it. If I ever do have anyone ask for Zeiss, I guess that'll be a sign that they've been to WM. Then I can tell them that it would be a bad lens choice for them.

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## sjthielen

Giving missinformation about a product you know nothing about can only bite you in the ***.  Try being more informed than your competition.

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## CME4SPECS

Oh I think it would be a bad lens choice for them. Especially since it wouldn't be fitted properly, just like all the PALS that come out of our local WM. So, I don't think that would be bad information at all! As matter of fact I can't think of anything closer to the truth!

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## mrba

CME

I appreciate your sentiment.  However I doubt you fit every single pair properly either, and somewhere out there among walmart's zillion stores, there is an optician, perhaps between jobs, that is fitting each one perfectly and is just plain better than you!

Having said that I hope you kick the SH#@ out of your local WM.

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## CME4SPECS

As I said "our local" WM! No I'm not perfect, but, I know how to fix it when I have to!

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## mrba

You're not supposed to fix it silly... You send em back to wally world and let them figure it out.  Give the patient a terrible WM expirience and then sell them the new better pair!

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## Chris Ryser

HOW ABOUT  .................................................

Instead of selling a brand name progressive of which you loads to choose from,................ and which most probably in many cases are twins to each other, follow a new idea.  Dont forget lens casters buy the moulds from the same sources.

Choose one or several types you know have worked for you and sell them as the type you can just about garantee full success without naming and charging a certain make or type.

*Make it your own brand, the best quality and see that they get a perfect fit and you will never have to worry again that Wal-Mart or General Motors start selling the same stuff.*

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## drk

Caped Crusader:
Essilor Natural does not equal Varilux Comfort, but they are close.  Don't let Wal-Mart gal bait you into thinking they are.

True or False:

Varilux Panamic is equivalent to Zeiss Gradal

All Sola progressives are somewhat second-rate

Shamir products are underrated.  

"Tawlk amongst yourselves, mishuganas!" :Rolleyes:

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## For-Life

> *For-Life said:* 
> Can someone name the lens companies that do not deal with the chains?


I just thought of one.  Does Hoya deal with the chains?

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## sjthielen

If you are selling yourself and not the product ,it really doesnt matter what your competition is selling. By the way alot of good opticians sell Zeiss product.

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## Jacqui

> *Chris Ryser said:* 
> HOW ABOUT  .................................................
> 
> Instead of selling a brand name progressive of which you loads to choose from,................ and which most probably in many cases are twins to each other, follow a new idea.  Dont forget lens casters buy the moulds from the same sources.
> 
> Choose one or several types you know have worked for you and sell them as the type you can just about garantee full success without naming and charging a certain make or type.
> 
> *Make it your own brand, the best quality and see that they get a perfect fit and you will never have to worry again that Wal-Mart or General Motors start selling the same stuff.*



That's what I do, sometimes. Most folks can't really tell the difference.

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## mrba

DRK
If you are of the impression that Zeiss Gradal And Panamic are even close to similar you are sadly mistaken...

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## mrba

For-Life

yeah, i have personally seen hoya product in chains B4

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## drk

mrba:  Please tell me what your opinion of each lens is.  I have used both, but do not truly understand the difference.

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## mrba

HA! the classic question.

Go to the Opthalmic Optics section on the homepage.  Click on the thread "Truly Aspheric?".  This will help get you started.

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## drk

Ok, mrba, I read it.

I, too, have heard that "Comfort is not fully aspheric", but "Panamic is", or "Zeiss is".  I doubt that anyone knows what the heck they are talking about.

It seems clear from the brains on that forum that:

1. All progressives are "non-spherical" due to the progressive curves on the front surface, but that doesn't mean "aspheric" in the way that we normally think of it.

2. "Hard" progressives don't mess with the distance optics (Sola VIP, I think, is an example), "softer" progressives move some distortion to the distance area (AO's old "Omni" was the classic example there) in order to reduce peripheral astigmatism, smooth out the progression, whatever.

3.  True asphericity is not currently achieved with any progressive, since it would require free-form surfacing of the front and back surfaces (actually they said it would surpass our concept of asphericity).  Spherical or spherocylindrical curves on the back surface would make it an "incomplete aspheric".   It is conventionally not feasable to have finished progressive lenses with back surfaces aspherically ground from a lens manufacturer due to the millions of parameter combinations.


What's not clear to me is:
1.  Are our semi-finished aspheric lenses "not fully aspheric" due to the lab's back side application of the Rx?

2.  Are finished aspheric lenses better, since the manufacturer puts aspheric curves on the back?

3.   Is this "aspheric" discussion germaine to progressives at all?  Are we actually just debating design differences on the front surface.  Methinks so.  If that's the case, maybe Gradal isn't in some kind of class all by itself, unlike what we may have been lead to think?

4.  If there are truly aspheric SV lenses out there in finished form, which ones are they?

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## mrba

Where I was trying to get to in the aspheric thread was; given the type of back curve the lab puts on a lens, is that indicative of a degree of asphericity?  For instance a panamic vs gradal on similar front curves given the same rx will require very different tools (gradal requiring a flatter tool.)

I think however that Darryl answered it most excellently, given that most of us do not have enouph math to understand the process and need an interpreter.

I have seen proprietary mappings of progressives in terms distortion.  Stuff that isn't allowed for the general public.  On those Gradal looked the best by far.  (the mappings were not provided by either Zeiss or Essilor...  ahem)

Having just complimented Darryl, I think there is something to be said for the curves being more or less complex to the point of minimizing distortion, and I don't think that all companies have such an understanding of those equations.  So as a progressive is judged based on controlling distortion and where it goes, I think that some companies do that better than others.

For instance "a harder desighn increases or decreses distortion (whichever doesn't matter)"  Yes But, some people do that harder desighn better than others and have wider zones, and less distortion than others.

Does this make any sense?   I wish some lens desighners would get on here and duke it out!  But I guess that would be telling us something other than the same old spiel!!!!!

As far as Zeiss goes, the history behind the Gtop is, The Gradal HS was an embarassing piece of poop, and hence the germans had to make it right.  And you know how our beer drinking friends can get when they have to save face.  I suppose because of this the Gradal is probably the optimum general use progressive.

Maybe someone from Zeiss can get back on here and defend themselves against their French friends!
Math isn't everything!



:hammer:

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## keithbenjamin

We're pretty much off topic here. Maybe an admin can split this off into another thread?

DrK,




> I, too, have heard that "Comfort is not fully aspheric", but "Panamic is", or "Zeiss is". I doubt that anyone knows what the heck they are talking about.


Probably the biggest difference between the Comfort and the Panamic is "generational", meaning the Panamic is newer generation lens design.  Progressive lenses are designed using computers. As time goes on, computer technology advances and lens designers are able to employ more complex algorithms and larger numbers of reference points. Older progressive lenses were designed using hundreds of reference points where newer generation lenses are designed using thousands.  Also interesting to note the the Natural was released 2-3 years after the Comfort. Hmm

As to your questions regarding asphericity and back side curves.  It cannot really be said that a lens is not "truly aspheric" because it has a spherical back side curve. "Truly aspheric" or "fully ashperic" are really misnomers. What we are really talking about are degrees of asphericity or "how optimized" a lens is in reducing peripheral aberrations. Today when a lens is referred to as aspheric, it refers to the front curve. Front side aspherics are designed to minimize peripheral aberrations for a given range of back side spherical curves, and do a pretty good job of it. Don't confuse aspherics with free-form curves. They are really two different animals. 

Finished aspheric lenses from the manufacturer do not typically come with aspheric back curves, so finished lenses are no better than semi-finished in that sense. The only finished SV I know of that comes with an aspheric back curve is the Optima 1.66.

-KB

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## Va.LDO

My store is right behind a Walmart, I was standing at the door today and saw the Zeiss truck going to the loading dock. All I could do is shake my head. Well J&J has been knocking on my door to be my new prem. PAL, out with the old in with the new.

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## drk

Thank you, KB, for your concise answers. 

Mrba, I think the take-home message is that the search for the Holy Grail of "fully aspheric" is futile, as the better way to conceptualize it is "how large of a clear optical zone it has", since that's what this talk is all about, anyway.  It depends on several variables, not just one aspect of design.  

Thus mrba, I am refining my bold claim to: "PANAMIC IS EQUIVALENT TO GRADAL, in terms of overall patient acceptance."  

But, let's debate some more.  I'm learning stuff!

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## Chris Ryser

> *drk said:* 
> 
> *the Holy Grail of "fully aspheric" is futile." * 
> 
>  I'm learning stuff!



I am wondering what a futile Holy Grail of a full asperic has to do between ZEISS + WAL MART ??????????????

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## mrba

It has something to do with it actually.

This thread ultimately asks two very important questions.

1.  Do chains use the same lenses as independants.

2.  Are those lenses equivalent to lenses independants use?

I would like to add one more question.

3.  By buying labs, do lens manufactures really control everything? And is the perception of being independant truly just a perception, given this and the previous two questions.

I suppose this isn't exactly WM and Zeiss.  Perhaps a moderator could make my three questions a new thread?

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## Clive Noble

I know it's nothing to do with Zeiss or Walmart, but I have to get my 4.5 shekels worth in (that's US$1.00)

The ultimate goal we are striving for is to dispense a pair of PALs which will keep the Pt away from your door for a couple of years.
You want him to be happy,  you don't want to hear his complaints.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion with the various designs, makes, forms of PALs available today,  that they all fit the bill
PROVIDED that :-

1) the Rx is correct. Explain what is a PAL,  what it does.

2) the lenses are made by a professional outfit who know how to get it right

3) The frame must be suitable for the job and fitted prior to taking measurements.

4) the measurements,  (mono PDs,  Heights) are taken properly, taking into account the patient's needs and requests,  the way he walks,  holds his head,  reads etc. and of course the choice of lens.

5) The instructions for edging and fitting are properly passed on to the glazing shop,  preferably the person who took the heights should also do the edging.

6) The glasses are thoroughly checked before inviting the Pt to collect them

7) The glasses are given out to the Pt by the dispenser, who talks through the effects the Pt may get with these new glasses (before placing them on his face) like differences from his old PALs
or if it's first time, how to use his head and eyes etc.

We are successfully fitting AO, Essilor, Hoya, Shamir, Seiko, Sola, Younger, Zeiss .... cheapies, expensives, the lot  (except Rodenstock.... no reason...) and we have very few rejects.
Is it because they are all very similar or we're very lucky or because we follow the formula above??

Why do we offer this large range,   well, the Pt here likes to make a choice based on what his friends have,  what's being advertised, but most important what we recommend.
I bet if I gave the next 10 patients AOPro 15  or Sola XL they would be happy bunnies.

Personally, I'd prefer to dispense a 1.67 Panamic or Gradal Top with the best coatings...... you know why!!

The only other thing I want to add is that if you have to be a couple of millimeters out, Zeiss Top is a very forgiving lens!

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## drk

Ryser, you are such a purist.  You probably are an organized person, as well, and hate to see sloppy threads.  I deeply apologize.;)

Clive and mrba, what we really need is an independant, head-to-head study of different design characteristics and how they work on different types of patients.  That will never happen.  Until then, I guess we're stuck with anecdotal evidence passed around between professionals and smaller sample-size, less rigorous in-office "studies".  At least we care.

UNLIKE WAL-MART, THE SCOURGE OF THE OPTICAL PROFESSION!:cheers:

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## Chris Ryser

> *mrba said:* 
> 
> * By buying labs, do lens manufactures really control everything?*


*Is it not very visible?* The lens manufacturers are buying up labs world wide. And the frame guy's are buying the retailers.

The lens manufacturers have the large labs and watch the small lab becoming extinct.

The frame manufacturer buy's the retail market and hopes to see that the independents are getting extinct.

They all sell to Wal Marts and alike their brand name products  and create a new competition to the independent, hoping it will get them to the "extinct classifiation" a bit faster.

What puzzles me most is that judging from many postings on this very Optiboard most retailer don't give a hoot and continue to heavily support the same companies that visibly want to put them into "Jurassic Parc".

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## drk

You know, I maybe used to worry about that scenario, but I never do anymore. 

Basically, we are protected as independents by these facts:
1.  People don't like to be cookie-cuttered at fast-food opticals.  They truly cannot deliver a human relationship in that kind of situation.

2.  People don't like to work at those places, either, and the best will always want to be independent.

3.  Vision care is way too dependent on multiple tasks being done correctly.  The margin for error is virtually nil.  And people's vision is very sensitive and requires painstaking care.  This is incompatible with mass-production.

4.  It's a fine craft to make a pair of glasses correctly and beautifully.  There never seems to be the machine that automates to the point that a trained monkey can do it.

I think less in terms of takeovers and consolidation hurting my independent practice, but instead, giants appearing to take over the commercial market.  I think there will be a great divide between private and commercial, from here on out.  This may include contact lenses at some point.  

As far as independent optical labs, I have an account with a Japanese-owned, fully automated, super high-tech lab that consistently disappoints me, and an account with a smaller lab that tries harder and does a great job (ususally).  

As a RGP supplier once told me "we are a mom and pop industry, a cottage industry, when you really look at it".  I really think it defies mass-production.

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## keithbenjamin

1. Yet they are attracted by $39 glasses or 2 pair for $99 with a free exam. Most don't understand why they need to go to an independent and spend hundreds of dollars on a quality exam, fitting, and materials.

2. Yet new ODs with 6-figures student loans are being attracted by their instant 6-figure salaries.

3. Again most people don't understand this. 

4. No, but they can crank 'em out in "about an hour" at the chains. 

There is definitely a huge difference between the chains and most independents however, the consumer needs some educatin' lest the independent optical goes the way of the mom and pop groceries and hardware stores.

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## mrba

They can't do much in an hour... just the basics... and thats and important educational point!

here here for KB

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## Chris Ryser

> *keithbenjamin said:* 
> 
> * .................the consumer needs some educatin' lest the independent optical goes the way of the mom and pop groceries and hardware stores.*



How do you propose to educate the consumer while he is bombarded by big time advertising of the optical MEGAFIRMS???

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## Olliewally

> *Va.LDO said:* 
> My store is right behind a Walmart, I was standing at the door today and saw the Zeiss truck going to the loading dock. All I could do is shake my head. Well J&J has been knocking on my door to be my new prem. PAL, out with the old in with the new.


Do you wonder how long it will take J&J to give an 800 number to your patients as they did with disposable contact lenses?  How about supporting your independent lab? J&J sells direct and cuts out the independent lab?  What will you do when there is no independent lab?  Independent labs can't stay in business selling flat tops and SV.  If J&J is successful with their product launch of progressive lenses you won't have to worry about any of the answers, they are a $23 (? unsure how many billions but much larger than any other lens mfg.)billion organization, they can and will do anything they want.

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## fletch

I sell my customer what I think is best.    

I don't think many of my customers go to Walmart and if they do its not to buy glasses. 

If price is all people care about Independents are in very deep trouble.  I think people will pay if they get quality, craftmanship and great service.  That's what I try to do and not worry too much about what others are doing.   I like to be aware but not worried

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## Johns

Drk:

I wish your statement about  what people like and don't like were true, but the numbers show otherwise.  The revenue numbers that they set for weekly goals are more than most places hope to do in a week.

I agree with you about..."the scourge"

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## keithbenjamin

> How do you propose to educate the consumer while he is bombarded by big time advertising of the optical MEGAFIRMS???


I split this off into another thread. 

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...0609#post70609

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## DragonLensmanWV

One of my former employees became a Zeiss district manager. When Sola bought them and announced she would then have to go to WM for sales calls, she just got sick to her stomach and had to relinquish her position as a matter of pride. I understand that most of the former Zeiss reps have been squeezed out too.Sad, really.
BTW, we've been seeing a lot of WM's ODC progressives coming in with "AR" coating that looks like oil on water. The patients say they were always like that and they could never get them clean. None of the coating seems to have adhered to the lenses at all. Does anyone know what they're spraying on to get an AR? ;)
Of course that is initially hampering our sales of quality AR. We ask them if they want AR and they say "OOh, that's like the crap we got on our last set from WM!" Then I take my lenses, smear them all up with my fingers ans show them how dirty they are. Then three quick wipes later, they are pristine again. THAT impresses them. We say that what they had is an insult to quality AR and offer to replace them if they don't like the new AR treatments. So far, only one woman was not totally happy with her Teflon lenses. She didn't like the blue color, so we replaced them with Alize, and she was happy.

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