# Optical Forums > Ophthalmic Optics >  Variable Near Inset

## Samuel Jong

I am able to find the variable near inset in Carl Zeiss Gradal Individual, since the lens is produced according to the patient's personal data. But why in the semi-finished pal lens also provide the same feature? Just like SOLAOne.

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## Darryl Meister

Samuel, the near zone inset of Gradal Top (upon which Gradal Individual is based) ranges from 2.0 to 4.5 mm. The near zone inset of Gradal Individual actually varies with the Add power, distance Rx, _and_ the wearer's distance PD. So, wearers who have wide distance PDs will receive a greater near inset than wearers with narrower PDs. The near zone inset of semi-finished lenses cannot vary with the wearer's actual PD measurements, since the design can only be modified by Base curve and Add power.

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## Samuel Jong

> Samuel, the near zone inset of Gradal Top (upon which Gradal Individual is based) ranges from 2.0 to 4.5 mm. The near zone inset of Gradal Individual actually varies with the Add power, distance Rx, _and_ the wearer's distance PD. So, wearers who have wide distance PDs will receive a greater near inset than wearers with narrower PDs. The near zone inset of semi-finished lenses cannot vary with the wearer's actual PD measurements, since the design can only be modified by Base curve and Add power.


Darryl, it is clear for me now. Thanks a lot.

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## Bobie

This is the variable inset of Rodenstock Progressiv AT , Samuel Jong :D :bbg:

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## Samuel Jong

> This is the variable inset of Rodenstock Progressiv AT , Samuel Jong :D :bbg:


Are Rodenstock Progressive AT using free-form technolgy? While Carl Zeiss Individual FrameFit variable inset is designed according to pt's personal data.

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## Bobie

Samuel Jong ,

Rodenstock Progressive AT is not free-form technolgy? 
It have only 60 inset difference by ametropia with 6 difference inset of front base curve x 10 difference inset of each ADD.

Carl Zeiss Individual is individual free form PALs that have more than 1,000 inset difference by ametropia. :D

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## Samuel Jong

Bobie,

I seldom test wearing other progressive lenses than Sola and Carl Zeiss. Now I am wearing is Individual from Carl Zeiss.

Thanks for your info about Rodenstock AT.

Samuel

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## Bobie

Zeiss Gradal Individual is the second world best PALs. In case that you would like to try better PALs , you have to going for Rodenstock Impression ILT. :D

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## Samuel Jong

Thanks for the nice info about Rodenstock Impression ILT.
:cheers:

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## Fezz

> Zeiss Gradal Individual is the second world best PALs.



Bobie-

That is a very bold statement. Could you provide us with the information that you base that statement on. I interested as to how and why.

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## Bobie

Fezz , 
The information I have in my hand is in German. I will looking for English version and post it soon.
My openion is when you see some wearers who have Zeiss Gradal Individual , just put the Impression ILT to them and see what 's happen. :D In Thailand , we will inform the wearer that , oh! you have very good and very expensive PALs , but now we have better one in about the same price. Would like you like to try some ? Then , the answer is always yes with full satisfaction guaranteed.
If it is not better , don't pay any things. I think this is fair enough. :cheers: 
Once again , in our club , no place to hide for any PALs. :finger:

Between the waiting , let we see , how the Impression ILT have been design!





   Others Free Form PALs 

 Impression ILT

Offcourse , it is in German.

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## Darryl Meister

> If it is not better , don't pay any things. I think this is fair enough.


Fair or not, that doesn't really make Impression ILT any _better_ than Gradal Individual... ;)

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## Samuel Jong

> If it is not better , don't pay any things. I think this is fair enough.


Do you think the Impression ILT is the best PAL?

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## Bobie

Darryl ,
Could you please , show me how good Gradal Invidual is and the design of it.

In Thailand , we listen to the wearer not the PALs company.
When the wearer who get used to Gradal Individual and very happy with it. We just put the Rodenstock Impression ILT in the condition of better or not pay. ( These wearer are the European and buy Gradal Individual from Europe )

We test only 10 case from Gradal Individual to Impression ILT and all of 10 wearer see better and feel better within few seconds and these enough for us.
We also interesting to test the weare who get used to Impression ILT to try Gradal Individual but we can not order yet. If you can arrange we will pay and test , because we have thousand of happy Impression ILT wearer in Thailand who would like to pay more for better PALs. The problem is we can find any PALs better than Impression ILT yet , then our wearer have to wait.
In case the Zeiss have better PALs than Gradal Individual , let me know. We will dig and test how better it is.
Once again , in our club " no place to hide for any PALs ". :D 
The name can not used in our club but the real performance only will be survive.
I am realy sorry to say , many of very expensive PALs are dead meat on our test. :D ( like Hoya or Essilor ).

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## AWTECH

Bobie:

How do the Thai Optical freefrom lenses compare to the Rodenstock ILT?  Have you had anyone in the ILT switch and try the Thai Optical freeform?  If so what is your experience?  How many have tried this?

Thanks for your knowledge of these freeform products.

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## Bobie

AWTECH , 
TOG Excelite Freedom 13 & 15 : Free Form Progressive Back Surface can not compare with Rodenstock Impression ILT , because Impression ILT is total better technology.

We can compare Excelite Freedom 15 with Rodenstock Multigressiv ILT and Hoyalux iD 14.

We ever switching the wearer from Impression ILT to Excelite Freedom 15 only 1 case and the result is Imkpression ILT total better in all point of performance.

We would like to try more case , but our Impression ILT wearer need to try better PALs only. Then we only try 50 wearer on Trial Frame and the result is Impression ILT still total better at all.

Excelite Freedom 15 can compare with Hoyalux iD14 and the rating of Hoyalux iD is better about 10% in 24 mm total frame height and about the same in 28 mm total frame height.

Excelite Freedom 13 can compare with Rodenstock Multigressiv ILT XS in 26 mm total frame height / 18 mm fitting height and the result about the same for distance and near , but Freedom 13 is much better at intermediate. ( Freedom 13 is 13 mm corridor length vs Multigressiv ILT XS is 11 mm corridor length )

In case that the parameter of the frame can adjust to standard of Freedom 13 , P.D. 64 , no CYL. , no Prism , no anisometropia , 26 total frame height / 18 mm fitting height ,  the result is about the same like Multigressiv ILT vs Freedom 13.

Freedom 13 have better performance if compare with Hoyalux iD 11 ( P.D. 64 , no CYL. , no Prism , no anisometropia , 26 total frame height / 18 mm fitting height )

TOG Excelite Freedom is one of the most value Free Form PALs in today market and can beat all of semi-finished PALs like Physio , Creation , Panamic , Progressiv life 2 , Progressiv AT. :D

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## Darryl Meister

> In Thailand , we listen to the wearer not the PALs company.
> When the wearer who get used to Gradal Individual and very happy with it. We just put the Rodenstock Impression ILT in the condition of better or not pay.


Honestly, Bobie, this statement doesn't make a lot of sense. If I understand you correctly, you first "listen to the wearer," and then switch them from a lens that they are "very happy with" into another product...?

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## Samuel Jong

It sounds like other PAL's should be out from the earth except Impression ILT. :cry:

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## Bobie

Yes , Darryl 
You understand correctly.
We do with the wearer who are very happy and proud in Gradal Individual and we confirm their PALs is very good and very expensive , and we ask the wearer that , would you like to try better one or not ?
Once again , no better no pay. These what we do in Thailand.

But don't worry about another PALs company , because Rodenstock have very weak marketing and don't know how to tell the world how great about Impression ILT.

Jong , the other PALs still can be on the earth if they can make the O.D. , optician and the wearer believe in quality of their PALs , but not in Thailand.

Once again , in Thailand , no place to hide for any PALs. :finger:

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## rinselberg

> We test only 10 case from Gradal Individual to Impression ILT and all of 10 wearer see better and feel better within few seconds and these enough for us. We also interesting to test the weare who get used to Impression ILT to try Gradal Individual but we can not order yet ...


It would be interesting to follow this up with more test cases (more than just ten) and tests that involve more than just a subjective response by the patient after a few seconds with the ILT. Follow up tests or patient questionnaires after the patients have been wearing ILT for a few months. Tests of their visual acuity and performance involving test stimuli and instruments.

I would be concerned about testing issues such as a placebo effect - and about patients responses being affected by the psychological effects of "suggestion" - and the likelihood that after a patient has "bought into" the ILT, they are likely to be less than reliably objective in justifying or rationalizing their choice.

It will be interesting to see how the PALs Club continues to evolve their testing methodologies.

Just my two cents worth.
:D 


rinselberg's long awaited Jurassic Post opened Wednesday to record view counts on OptiBoard's Word of the Day!

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## Darryl Meister

> It would be interesting to follow this up with more test cases (more than just ten) and tests that involve more than just a subjective response by the patient after a few seconds with the ILT.


I think Bobie is primarily interested in dispensing Rodenstock lenses, not necessarily in a clinical study comparing Rodenstock to ZEISS. Secondly, many wearers will experience an improvement in vision when getting a new progressive lens design, of whatever type (at least, assuming it performs reasonably well), simply because their prescription has been updated.

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## Bobie

Thank you for your comment , rinselberg
I agree with you to test more case and follow up for few months , but our wearer are tourist form Europe and stay only for few weeks.

We have only few wearer who current wear Gradal Individual ( 20 time less than Gradal Top ). Then , it is not easy to find out more than 20 case , but we will try. :bbg: 

Our club are not interesting for clinical study for Rodenstock vs Zeiss or others PALs , but we focus on Individual PALs like Rodenstock Impression ILT vs Gradal Individual.

In fact of PALs , the old PALs with the old Rx get more advance than the new Rx ,because more SPH. & more ADD = more distortion & less visual field , Darryl.
The most of our wearer have the same distance Rx.The 50% of our wearer have the same Rx.The 40% of our wearer have the same distance Rx and need only 0.25D more ADD or less ADD.10% of our wearer have difference Rx.40% of our wearer just buy the old PALs less than 12 months.Darryl , if the wearer get new pair of PALs in new Rx that difference only ADD 0.25D , even they get exactly the same model of PALs. Their visual field will be smaller and more distortion.

I read your post and feel like you never fitting PALs by yourself. Please try to understand that , it's very danger to changing the design of PALs in the same technology for the wearer. You can change the design of PALs from lower tehnology to the higher technology PALs , if not , Don't do it.

Around the world , many wearer don't like the new pair of PALs , because it worst than the old one they have and the prescription has been updated. Most of them have to going back to the old design with new Rx.

In fact , the PALs that the wearer get used to it , have much more advantage with the new PALs that have difference design. In case that the performance about the same , the wearer will feel better on the old PALs. The wearer can feel the new PALs better only when the new PALs much better than the old PALs.

Anyway , we will waiting for Gradal Individual do marketing in Thailand. If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual is better than Impression ILT. Our club will sell Gradal Individual many thousand pair in the first year and more for second years. :D  

" In PALs business , only the name is not enough " :finger:

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## Darryl Meister

> I read your post and feel like you never fitting PALs by yourself.


I'm surprised I left you with that impression.




> Anyway , we will waiting for Gradal Individual do marketing in Thailand. If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual is better than Impression ILT.


Bobie, in all fairness, keep in mind that none of the seven threads of Rodenstock marketing that you posted in the Progressives forum proves Rodenstock ILT is superior to Gradal Individual.

However, if you are very satisfied with the performance of Impression ILT, and find that it is considerably less expensive than Gradal Individual in Thailand, then there is certainly nothing wrong with using the Rodenstock product. They are certainly competent lens designers. But the fact that you prefer to sell one product over the other doesn't necessarily make your particular choice inherently "superior" to the other.

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## Bobie

Darryl ,
Why you not show me the technology of Gradal Individual that you think better than Impression ILT.Gradal Individual and all of Zeiss PALs not available in Thailand. It is not about who cheeper , but about which one better and not about the price.If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual better and the price is more , that fine , we like to sell it.I am in retailer PALs business and will find out the fact of all PALs and against the PALs Empire who hidden the truth.Once again , In our club " no place to hide for all PALs ". :bbg:

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## OPTIDONN

> Darryl ,
> Why you not show me the technology of Gradal Individual that you think better than Impression ILT.Gradal Individual and all of Zeiss PALs not available in Thailand. It is not about who cheeper , but about which one better and not about the price.If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual better and the price is more , that fine , we like to sell it.I am in retailer PALs business and will find out the fact of all PALs and against the PALs Empire who hidden the truth.Once again , In our club " no place to hide for all PALs ". :bbg:


OK, I have a question for you Bobie. What is your background? Is it engineering? Optics? lens manufacturing? or is it retail? I have worked with people who have rejected more advanced lenses and have been very happy a VIP which is a very hard and old design. Is it because it's a better lens? NO, it's because this design fit the individuals needs of the wearer. If you are trying to come up with some database that will help ECP's to select the most appropriate lens for the wearer then that is a great idea. Why are you so focused on PALs? why not also see what A/R is the best?

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## Samuel Jong

> Once again , no better no pay. These what we do in Thailand.
> 
> Once again , in Thailand , no place to hide for any PALs.


Once again, no better no pay, buy if better buy one get two. 
These what we do in my country.
Once again, in my country, no place for Rodenstock.

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## Bobie

OPTIDONN ,
My background is retailer optik shop and I am the second generation.
Our shop not sell SV or Bi-focal for presbyopes more than 7 years , because we only fit PALs or Occupational PALs only.
My experience is over ten thousand of PALs and many thousand of them is Panamic , and the all reject rate lower than 0.1%
The dispensing optician and O.D. have to listen what the PALs company and lens manufaterer say , more than they listen to us. We are in the front line with the wearer and try to inform them what happen , but most of them not pay attention to our comment. They only protect their product.

It is very stupid to switching from hard design PALs to soft design PALs in same level of technology PALs.

But the realy good PALs must be can switch from any design of PALs and must be total better. If not it mean that PALs not good enough.
The PALs that good enough must have good dynamic vision + panoramic vision + comfort of vision + instant adaptation + instant crystal clear vision at any distance , and The PALs like this must be individual free from Atoric / Apheric PALs only.

We focus on design of PALs because the wearer will happy or not with in few second , but the A/R is take few months to know it is good or bad.
In Thailand we have 18 months guaranteed for A/R quality and the best material that never have problem of A/R in almost 2 years is 1.6/42 MR-20 ABBE 42. :D 

Jong , Rodenstock PALs is not for every country and not every PALs of Rodenstock can pass our test.

The Rodenstock PALs that can pass our test at below ;
Impression ILT : Individual Free Form Atoric / Aspheric / Progressive Back SurfaceImpression ILT Sport : Individual PALs for warp frame ( FFA up to 25 degree )Impression ILT Hyperop : Individual PALs for SPH. + 13.00D ADD 3.00DThe Rodenstock OPALs that can pass our test at below ;
Nexyma 40 : for 40 cm main used up to 80 cmNexyma 80 : for 80 cm main used close to 40 cmImpression 40 : Individual Free Form of Nexyma 40Impression 80 : Individual Free Form of Nexyma 80The Individual PALs is not easy to fit correct. It need a lot of training by professional. The wrong fitting will kick this PALs to be a junk PALs and the perfect fitting will make this PALs like super PALs = instant adaptation ( Just only blink the eyes three time and adaptation is complete ).

*Once again , The individual PALs is for professional fitting only.* :finger: 
( Tell me if you would like to see how to fit Individual PALs ) :D

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## OPTIDONN

It is very stupid to switching from hard design PALs to soft design PALs in same level of technology PALs.

There were patient adaption issues with Pentax Perfas, Physio 360 and Shamir Autograph. Each of these patients had previously worn VIP. They were not kept in the same level of technology. It's not that any of these other lenses were no good it's just that they did not meet the patients expectations nor did they meet thier needs. Much of it was that they had become accustomed to VIP's design.


You complain that these companies are 'hiding' the 'truth' from you but you base your information from thier marketing material. Studying and trying to understand how these lenses differ and who can benefit the most from certain designs is admirable. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are trying to accomplish and how you are accomplishing it.

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## Bobie

OPTIDONN ,
The best PALs must be make the wearer happy no matter what design they get used to it , and Impression ILT is the one.

The dispensing optician and O.D. arond the world need some PALs that total better than every PALs even the price is very high. The dream PALs of dispensing optician is expensive but good.

When the wearer pay more and get total better = very happy ending.When the wearer pay more and get worst = sad ending.When the wearer pay less and get better = happy ending.When the wearer pay less and get worst = exceptable to get what you pay.Yes , some of my informations are from PALs marketing material , but most of them is confidential that you can not find in public website and many of dispensing optician can not get from PALs company.

Our conclusions are base on the wearer. In case that , Hoya said , Hoyalux iD is the best PALs in the world. We listen to them but we not believe. We just test on the wearers to proof the truth.
Our question to Hoya is if the wearer like another PALs more than Hoyalux iD , can we send your iD back and not pay anythings. The answer from Hoya is no and absolutely not.

We don't care what the PALs company said , we care only when the wearer don't like , what the PALs pay responsibility ,that all we need to know.

Without all of dispensing optician , the PALs manufacturer will have no income.
Without the PALs manufacturer , the dispensing optician not have PALs to fit.
Why we not listen to each other ?
Why the PALs manufacturer not pay attention to dispensing optician who always stand in the front line.
What happen if the PALs manufacturer only protect their product and not pay attention to the comment of dispensing optician? :finger: 

Once again , We are in the retailer PALs business who love the PALs manufacturer who pay attention to us. If not , we will never buy any PALs from them.

Many time when we find out the problem in their PALs , some PALs manufacturer only protect their product and blame us to ohter optik shop like look at APC optik shop group , our PALs is very good but they don't know how to fit it right. :bbg: 
In this case we leave them to other optik shop and O.D. who know how fit it right , because our club are too stupid to fit their PALs right , that fine. :bbg: ( After we do what they said and still have the same problem )

One joking story to tell all , many time when our member have the problem with some PALs and we call the rep to ask for solution. They said , oh we sell more than 30,000 pair in Thailand and never have any problem , you are only the one who have problem. But , when we check to other member , we find have more than 50 case of the same problem in 3 months.
Why we have to trust them anymore? :angry:

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## Samuel Jong

> OPTIDONN ,
> My background is retailer optik shop and I am the second generation.


When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country?

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## Bobie

Jong , how many PALs that you ever fit by yourself ?
How many design of PALs that you ever seen the whitepaper how it design?
How many contour plot of PALs that you ever seen?
How many PALs that you ever try by your self?
How many wearer that you ever ask them how they feel on difference PALs?

You ask me many question , yes I answer your question.
Now ,can you answer my question?

When your company establisehd? Are you the only Lens Laboratory in your country?
How do you feel when I ask you this question?
Do you feel good.

No matter you answer my question or not , no matter how do you feel , I will answer your question.

When our retailer optical established , we have more than thousnad of optical shop in my country who believe what you say.

This clear enough , Jong. :D

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## Samuel Jong

Bobie,

When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country?

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## Bobie

Jong , 
I have been already answer your question!

It is no matter , if you can not answer my question!
Why should you ask the question for more than one time ? 
How many time that I have to answer the same question? :D 

Please , try to keep your eye open and learning from each others. :finger:
Or just believe what your company inform you.

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## Samuel Jong

Bobie,

When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country?

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## Bobie

Good bye , Samuel Jong :finger: 
You are not good enough to discuss with me or even with my student.
Learn more from your company in Indonesia and come back again , Samuel Jong. :finger:

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## OPTIDONN

> Good bye , Samuel Jong :finger: 
> You are not good enough to discuss with me or even with my student.
> Learn more from your company in Indonesia and come back again , Samuel Jong. :finger:


Just curious did you answer Samuel Jong's question about how long you have been in business? I couldn't find you answer.

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## Bobie

1.  Our retailer shop established on 1960.

2.  I am the second generation of retailer optical shop.

3.  I start to work when I am 15 years old in my family shop until 2005.

4.  I just start to fitting PALs only 10 years , but lucky me that I am only one man who stand for PALs or OPALs or nothing for presbyopes. In our shop , no SV / no Bi-focal for the presbyopes , but PALs or OPALs or nothing. These why I can fitting PALs more than 10,000 pair in 10 years by myself and the reject rated less than 0.1 &#37;.

5.  In 2000 , I set up the Varilux Panamic Specialist Shop and fitting many of Panamic only in one shop and I dare to say that I know about Panamic more than Essilor know and this shop is still open and 99% of PALs is still Panamic.

OPTIDONN , I am a man who dare to stand in the front line and answer every question , not hit other people and run to hide in the dark like someone, that not me. :D

I answer Samuel Jong 's question in the way what he ask and I have been answer his question already on 12-09-2006, 05:16 PM
*" When our retailer optical established , we have more than thousnad of optical shop in my country who believe what you say. "
*
Because , Samuel Jong aks me on  12-09-2006, 04:46 PM *" When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country? "*

What about if I ask same stupid question to Samuel Jong like " *When is your lenscompany established? Are you the only lens company in your country? "* 
How Samuel Jong will answer my question ? Let we see.

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## Samuel Jong

> Our retailer shop established on 1960.


Hi Bobie,

My answer to you, our first retail shop established on 1929. Good bye.

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## Samuel Jong

OPTIDONN,

I had been visiting your lens manufacture sometime ago in my country. They are doing the marketing very aggressive, and I always attend the seminars held by Polycore. A nice talk and discussion with them as well.:cheers:

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## OPTIDONN

> OPTIDONN,
> 
> I had been visiting your lens manufacture sometime ago in my country. They are doing the marketing very aggressive, and I always attend the seminars held by Polycore. A nice talk and discussion with them as well.:cheers:


Glad to hear it!:)

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## HarryChiling

no longer playing in this sand box

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## Bobie

HarryChiling ,
How do you measure the parameter of the frame to order Impression ILT ? :D

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## HarryChiling

no longer playing in this sand box

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## AWTECH

Harry and Bobie----STOP

To be fair you need to measure a lens in each brand made to the same Rx for the same frame and patient.  Then if you want to look at lens maps, take an actual lens in the same Rx for each and map it.

Trying to compare one Rx with a different Rx with a different design is like guessing which car is the best and going to win the INDY 500.  To know the answer to this you come back the day after the race read the facts and you have the answer.  Before the race it is my practice time was faster than yours.

All of us hear in English speaking countries should be very careful as not to interpet what Bobie says as being anything but trying in a non-native language to express his opinion.  I admire his willingness to share with others his experiences.  In the US we don't hear much about Rodenstock since they no longer market hear.

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## Bobie

Thank you for your interesting picture , HarryChiling
, and thanky you for your comment , AWTECH.

I agree with AWTECH that , we have to compare in the same Rx.
I would to ask your experience that what happen when have some error on fee form PALs.

I ask this question because we ever have a lot of problem from some free form PALs in the first lunch and send them back to the lab. The lab remade new one in the same design and the problem is gone , but after 3 months all free form PALs from this lab never have same problem again.

I think when the free form PALs have some error it will be terrible than the error on semi-finished PALs. :D

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## HarryChiling

no longer playing in this sand box

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## harry a saake

I think we need to get JERRY HUANG to moderate this thread:bbg:

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## Robert Martellaro

> many wearers will experience an improvement in vision when getting a new progressive lens design, of whatever type (at least, assuming it performs reasonably well), simply because their prescription has been updated.


Good point. And even if there was no change in Rx there's still visual improvement due to pristine lens surfaces and possibly a more refined optical position, making it difficult to judge the clients response to different lens designs. My solution has been to make different PAL designs in identical frames in my own Rx, eliminating most variables except the design of the lens. 

I knew there were going to be some advantages of getting older- it looks like being a presbyopic optician is one of them.:) 

Regards,

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