# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Stopping Warby Parker

## OptiMon

What can we do as a group of licensed ophthalmic dispensers to Stop the sale of online glasses in licensed states where it's mandated that eyewear needs to be manufactured and dispensed by licensed professionals?

Why can they break the law across state borders when we can't?

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## MikeAurelius

Are you saying this because they advertise on TV now?

If you go down this route, you also have to go after Essilor and the others. How deep are your pockets?

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## Fezz

You can not stop it!

Welcome to the new world order! Buying online will not end! How many of us make purchases online? I know that I made eight online purchases in the last week!

Adapt, differentiate, educate and eat more bran!

I am thankful for online sales..........it keeps the riff raff bottom feeders out of my practice so that I have time to concentrate on real patients purchasing real eyewear!

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## OptiMon

Fezz,

I agree that it lowers the amount if bottom feeders from my practice, but it also raises ethical as well as legal issues.
It also sends in patients looking for Free PD's and adjustments as per Warby Parker instructions. 

Besides deep pockets, what will it take for our local states licensing agency's to protect the consumer and our livelihood?

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## Fezz

Show proof of harm!

Good luck getting the apathetic optical masses to do anything!

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## idispense

They can be stopped but you first have to realize why they can exist. 

(1) They are willing to break the law.

(2) You are not willing to insist your  regulators  uphold the law you pay for through your licensing fees .

It is that simple . 

And Fezz the things you bought on line last week , were they restricted sale goods like optics ?

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## Browman

> Fezz,
> 
> I agree that it lowers the amount if bottom feeders from my practice, but it also raises ethical as well as legal issues.
> It also sends in patients looking for Free PD's and adjustments as per Warby Parker instructions. 
> 
> Besides deep pockets, what will it take for our local states licensing agency's to protect the consumer and our livelihood?


1) Define "bottom feeders." People without a lot of money? People with limited budgets? People who might not necessarily benefit from a $400 lens? I'm sure they appreciate being called "bottom feeders."

2) WP is now reimbursing people who get charged for their PDs. Watch out.

3) It's not up to the state to protect our livelihoods, it's up to us. The government didn't stop auto manufacturers to protect the horse and carriage industry, or word processor manufacturers to protect typewriter companies, and on and on. Industries change, competition arises, and it's either adapt or die. We can shout until we're blue at the face about how "illegal" online is (though I doubt there'd be much shouting if we were getting a piece of that pie) and how we need to shut it down, but by the end of the shouting match, online will still be around and we'll just look like a bunch of greedy misers trying to prevent people from getting a good deal.

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## MikeAurelius

There is a point to be made about State Associations or Licensing Agencies. If it is the law in your state that spectacles must be dispensed in person, and you know FOR SURE that non-personal dispensing is occuring in your state (most likely it is, but you still have to prove it), then call your Association/Agency and ask them to enforce the law. The more that call, the higher the chance that something may be done about it.

However, what is done may not be to your liking. It may turn out that in person dispensing might be found to be discriminatory to out-of-state businesses. This has happened in the past, not necessarily in the optical field though.

There are two sides to the coin, so pick your battles carefully.

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## Browman

> There is a point to be made about State Associations or Licensing Agencies. If it is the law in your state that spectacles must be dispensed in person, and you know FOR SURE that non-personal dispensing is occuring in your state (most likely it is, but you still have to prove it), then call your Association/Agency and ask them to enforce the law. The more that call, the higher the chance that something may be done about it.
> 
> However, what is done may not be to your liking. It may turn out that in person dispensing might be found to be discriminatory to out-of-state businesses. This has happened in the past, not necessarily in the optical field though.
> 
> There are two sides to the coin, so pick your battles carefully.


Also, don't forget the potential legal firetorm that could/would arise regarding the regulation of interstate commerce. Strange bedfellows may be made if Essilor steps in on the side of a startup like WP to protect their own future interests-- they have the money to throw at the resultant, drawn-out litigation.

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## MikeAurelius

Exactly. Interstate commerce is a very touchy subject and is controlled not by the states but by the Federal Government. Restricting interstate sales by state mandate is considered protectionism and is highly frowned upon at the Federal level.

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## OptiMon

Personally it doesn't directly effect my business, but it's extremely frustrating to play by the rules and constantly be penalized for it.

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## SeaU2020

They have a right to on-line business but I totally agree that they have to be regulated like contact lens companies. It is a prescription that should be validated by the prescribing Dr. for accuracy. How do we do THAT?

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## Browman

> They have a right to on-line business but I totally agree that they have to be regulated like contact lens companies. It is a prescription that should be validated by the prescribing Dr. for accuracy. How do we do THAT?


Fax system a'la the contact lenses you mention? After all, there's no doctor at the pt's house to verify the lenses he/she receives are the correct ones, just as the prescribing doctor doesn't have to verify the rx in a pair of glasses made by an outside optician if the pt takes his/her rx elsewhere.

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## Browman

> Personally it doesn't directly effect my business, but it's extremely frustrating to play by the rules and constantly be penalized for it.


If it isn't effecting you, how are you being penalized?

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## SeaU2020

> Fax system a'la the contact lenses you mention? After all, there's no doctor at the pt's house to verify the lenses he/she receives are the correct ones, just as the prescribing doctor doesn't have to verify the rx in a pair of glasses made by an outside optician if the pt takes his/her rx elsewhere.


The point is that at least the patient has an rx either written by the Dr. or verified first....what happens to it after I get a hold of it or an on-line optical isn't the point. Even pharmacists have been known to screw things up. I think it should be just like going to a pharmacy for medicine. I have to have a written rx or my Dr. needs to verify it before it is filled.

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## GokhanSF

What bothers me about WP is that they called us the "greedy middle men" in the ad and then they tell their customer to go to an optician "greedy middle men" to get free PD, adjustment, and troubleshooting. Now, they reimburse the fees is optician charges for PD.. Hmmm, I think I will start charging $95 to hand out PD info. Let me see you reimburse that.

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## gmc

The North Carolina State Board of Opticians has already tried to regulate this and the FTC took a very dim view of it. Unless you can prove harm, this ain't going anywhere.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/2011/01/1101ncopticiansletter.pdf

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## GokhanSF

> The North Carolina State Board of Opticians has already tried to regulate this and the FTC took a very dim view of it. Unless you can prove harm, this ain't going anywhere.
> 
> http://www.ftc.gov/os/2011/01/1101ncopticiansletter.pdf


Harm? Hmm, how about we order a pair which the PD will be off for sure, and then go crash the car to a tree and claim it was due to the lenses that you weren't able to clear?  :Biggrin:

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## Browman

> What bothers me about WP is that they called us the "greedy middle men" in the ad and then they tell their customer to go to an optician "greedy middle men" to get free PD, adjustment, and troubleshooting. Now, they reimburse the fees is optician charges for PD.. Hmmm, I think I will start charging $95 to hand out PD info.


...thereby reinforcing their point about the "greedy middle man."

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## GokhanSF

> ...thereby reinforcing their point about the "greedy middle man."


So you would rather give PD info and do adjustments on their glasses for free as they say you would?

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## Browman

> So you would rather give PD info and do adjustments on their glasses for free as they say you would?


From their FAQ:




> Most optical stores will make minor adjustments for free or a *small fee*


Reasonable fees are... reasonable. Self-consciously exaggerated fees for the purpose of financially bullying people are not.

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## GokhanSF

> From their FAQ:
> 
> Reasonable fees are... reasonable. Self-consciously exaggerated fees for the purpose of financially bullying people are not.


Sorry my time is money and I would rather spend it with my loyal customer who understand the quality eyewear and value my service. Those are the people I give free service. If you buy your frames from online retailer, I don't adjust them or troubleshoot them period. Go back to your online retailer for those services.

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## GokhanSF

Let's talk about who really is the greedy middle men here:

I sell high end handmade frames, freeform lenses, spend time with the customer to listen and address all their needs.

Warby Parker, sells cheap mass produce frames, no name lenses, don't ask you any questions to determine your needs. They don't have a lab or frame manufacturing facility which means they buy and resell making them the middle men.

My profit margin is far less than Warby Parker's so I think this makes them the greedy middle men pretty much...

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## denizen

If someone comes in looking for a PD measurement then charge a fee. If they want an adjustment of their glasses not made by you then charge. People think these services should be free to promote better PR but guess what, these people will never refer nor buy glasses from you in the first place. That is why they bought them online!  

Do not be apologetic to charge for your service. I see so many professionals give away their services for nothing. Optometrists included.

I have tried their home try on and the glasses are nothing to write home about. It is the same quality of glasses we would sell for $100 for less. Even the customers on Yelp state these are not primary wear glasses and only good for a second pair. The rate in which people buy glasses online is extremely small. Warby has a good PR machine and appear bigger than they really are. In order for them to get big is for them to open showrooms of their own. They have one opening in NYC but they need more than one and it requires more capital than they are able to raise. That is their weakness. 

If you worry about Warby, they are only ONE such company. There are a ton of companies to worry about online. Here are just a FEW: classicspecs (which got into a spat with warby), eyespex, eyefly, DB vision (which is ideal because they have kiosks, cheaper than a showroom), etc.  They all offer a free try on.  

The concept of warby is nothing new. They were the ones to bring it to the forefront in the USA. There was an online optical in the UK I believe that offered free home try ons before, SEE optical offered their own brand (made in italy) with poly lenses for a low set price, and Tom's shoes offered a donation of a pair of shoes with every purchase a customer made. Combine all these and you have a business.

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## GokhanSF

> If someone comes in looking for a PD measurement then charge a fee. If they want an adjustment of their glasses not made by you then charge. People think these services should be free to promote better PR but guess what, these people will never refer nor buy glasses from you in the first place. That is why they bought them online!  
> 
> Do not be apologetic to charge for your service. I see so many professionals give away their services for nothing. Optometrists included.


+1 totally

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## Java99

Is that small fee some opticals charge worth it to insert yourself into the manufacturing chain and therefore take on some of the liability?

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## Barry Santini

Follow my line of reasoning:

Credit default swaps
Libor
Warby Parker

GTFOH!

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## optical24/7

> Follow my line of reasoning:
> 
> Credit default swaps
> Libor
> Warby Parker
> 
> GTFOH!



Barry, are you speaking in tongue or is it happy hour already?  :Biggrin:

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## Now I See

> Show proof of harm!....





> ...Unless you can prove harm....



What if we look at harm in a different way?  Are we going to cause major harm with a pair of eyeglasses?  In _most_  cases, no probably not.  Could we cause  headaches, "funky" sensations, dizzying effects? Yes.  Could we _not_ tell the patient about UV, glare and impact resistance and inadvertently cause harm?   Yes.  

I've  been thinking about this subject a lot lately.  I attended   continuing  ed this past Sunday and in the law class, the Board counsel   made a light  bulb go off in my head.  She said (paraphrasing) 'as a   licensed  professional, you are charged with keeping the public free   from harm.'    So this got me looking at licensing and B&M shops in a   whole new  light.  What if we start thinking of what we   do, as a  profession, in more of a "what-can-I-do-to-protect-the-public" way,  instead of a   "glasses-can't-cause-any-harm-so-what's-the-point" way?

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## Fezz

> Barry, are you speaking in tongue or is it happy hour already?


It's 5:00 somewhere!

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## denizen

> Is that small fee some opticals charge worth it to insert yourself into the manufacturing chain and therefore take on some of the liability?


You have the option of opting out of measuring the PD. I charge $60 for a PD measurement. Not bad. Most people say forget it. I say, "No problem, see ya."

But, I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes it is best left to say no.

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## OptiMon

> You have the option of opting out of measuring the PD. I charge $60 for a PD measurement. Not bad. Most people say forget it. I say, "No problem, see ya."
> 
> But, I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes it is best left to say no.


There in lies another issue, are we, as the supplier of the PD, now responsible for the outcome of those glasses even if we had no control of the outcome? 

Should we require that any PD be accompanied by Rx verification and fitting included in those fees to cover our butts?

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## Browman

> There in lies another issue, are we, as the supplier of the PD, now responsible for the outcome of those glasses even if we had no control of the outcome? 
> 
> Should we require that any PD be accompanied by Rx verification and fitting included in those fees to cover our butts?


How is it any different than if someone else botches the RX?

Legally speaking, the question begins and ends with it being our obligation to release RXes. Any argument which can be applied to PD can be applied to the RX as a whole, and it is our obligation to release those RXes. The whole PD issue is simply a last-gasp attempt to hold on to business. I've encountered plenty of skeevy optical operations in my time, and they didn't need a website or home try-on programs to hide behind. There's _not_ necessarily anything better about a guy in a labcoat with a storefront.

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## Barry Santini

> Barry, are you speaking in tongue or is it happy hour already?


What do they have in common?

_Manipulation of the truth!
_
B

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## Java99

> How is it any different than if someone else botches the RX?
> 
> Legally speaking, the question begins and ends with it being our obligation to release RXes. Any argument which can be applied to PD can be applied to the RX as a whole, and it is our obligation to release those RXes. The whole PD issue is simply a last-gasp attempt to hold on to business. I've encountered plenty of skeevy optical operations in my time, and they didn't need a website or home try-on programs to hide behind. There's _not_ necessarily anything better about a guy in a labcoat with a storefront.


Not for me it doesn't. I have no doc on site, and therefore I would be creating liability by taking a measurement.   No thanks, I'll leave that to the prescribers who are already in it with the rx. I would feel differently if I were writing the rx.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Why can they break the law across state borders when we can't?
> *



.......................because the internet is and has been open and free and you can advertise just about anything you want, expensive or not as long as you follow some basic rules.
Restrictions have to enforced but are not in this case, as corporations rule the world these days and they seem to be on the other side.

There is no more stopping them. So as a retailer you must adopt to the situation or specialize for the rich and wealthy, there is also plenty of them.

Here is a list of the 6 most successful ones copies from my optical website isting at: --------------------->   http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm



.*On Line Glasses or services*
http://www.myonlineoptical.com/index.htm by Essilor

*Mr Spex, Germany*
6
19,909 
*3    month*
0.00657%
+16% 




*http://misterspex.de/*

*FramesDirect (Esssilor USA)*
*5*
*22,991* 
*3    month*
0.0069%
+6% 




*http://www.framesdirect.com/*

*Zenni Optical*
*4*
*25,491*
*3    month*
0.0063%
-6% 




*http://www.zennioptical.com/cart/home.php*

*WarbyParker*

25,951 
*3    month*
0.0056%
-20.66% 




*http://www.warbyparker.com  /*

*Eyebuydirect*
*5*
*26,817* 
*3    month*
0.0048%
+8% 




*http://www.eyebuydirect.com/*

*Firmoo  Optical*
*3*
31,302
*3    month*
0.00426%
+63% 




*http://www.firmoo.com/*

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## OptiMon

> Not for me it doesn't. I have no doc on site, and therefore I would be creating liability by taking a measurement.   No thanks, I'll leave that to the prescribers who are already in it with the rx. I would feel differently if I were writing the rx.


I am in the same position as Java99. 

We control the quality and Rx of every pair of glasses we dispense. 

Does this put us a greater liability for giving PD's since neither the Rx or the finished product comes back to us for verification?

Realistically, Chris is right, there is no stopping online sales.

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## Java99

> I am in the same position as Java99. 
> 
> We control the quality and Rx of every pair of glasses we dispense. 
> 
> Does this put us a greater liability for giving PD's since neither the Rx or the finished product comes back to us for verification?
> 
> Realistically, Chris is right, there is no stopping online sales.


I don't think online sales will go away at all.  I think it's just going to keep growing with more and more players in the market who have no optical background and are just looking to make a quick buck, like the Warby knock off Rivet and Sway. The state boards sure won't stop it.

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## tx11

> 1) Define "bottom feeders." People without a lot of money? People with limited budgets? People who might not necessarily benefit from a $400 lens? I'm sure they appreciate being called "bottom feeders."
> 
> 2) WP is now reimbursing people who get charged for their PDs. Watch out.
> 
> 3) It's not up to the state to protect our livelihoods, it's up to us. The government didn't stop auto manufacturers to protect the horse and carriage industry, or word processor manufacturers to protect typewriter companies, and on and on. Industries change, competition arises, and it's either adapt or die. We can shout until we're blue at the face about how "illegal" online is (though I doubt there'd be much shouting if we were getting a piece of that pie) and how we need to shut it down, but by the end of the shouting match, online will still be around and we'll just look like a bunch of greedy misers trying to prevent people from getting a good deal.


+1 

Unless we license opticians in every state and demand that every pair of RX glasses MUST be dispensed by a licensed ( or at least ABOC) optician, all we have to compete with is the ability to try on frames ,our individuals personalities and expertly adjusted eyewear. NOW HERE COMES THE HARD PART: How can we narrow the price gap between on-line and B&M? Ultimately, the consumer determines what are skills and knowledge are worth . Arrogance would say " Don't want to pay my fee..go somewhere else". Many are indeed going somewhere else. Perhaps the consumer is not our problem. They would probably prefer to do optical purchasese with an actual optician in person but the price difference is just too hard to over look. Maybe we should look into ways to lower our overhead and cost of doing business in order to lower our fees. Just sayin'.

On-line is here to stay and will continue to get more and more sophisticated and accurate in its delivery of RX eyewear.

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## Browman

> +1 
> 
> Unless we license opticians in every state and demand that every pair of RX glasses MUST be dispensed by a licensed ( or at least ABOC) optician, all we have to compete with is the ability to try on frames ,our individuals personalities and expertly adjusted eyewear. NOW HERE COMES THE HARD PART: How can we narrow the price gap between on-line and B&M? Ultimately, the consumer determines what are skills and knowledge are worth . Arrogance would say " Don't want to pay my fee..go somewhere else". Many are indeed going somewhere else. Perhaps the consumer is not our problem. They would probably prefer to do optical purchasese with an actual optician in person but the price difference is just too hard to over look. Maybe we should look into ways to lower our overhead and cost of doing business in order to lower our fees. Just sayin'.
> 
> On-line is here to stay and will continue to get more and more sophisticated and accurate in its delivery of RX eyewear.


And a +1 back.

I grew up in a small, rural town with two opticians. As a teenager one of my pasttimes was going to one of their offices, trying on frames, and, if I had extra cash, sometimes buying a pair. They weren't bells-and-whistles, but they were of a good quality and affordable for a young man working a part time job. None of them lasted as long as higher prices frames I've owned, to be sure (though the lenses sure did), but at that time in my life, with the financial resources I had, they were what I needed.

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## Barry Santini

I'm not after just quality. I want to exceed expectations and satisfy

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## optimensch

Taking PD measurements and adjusting frames purchased on the web are opportunities to one-on-one market our services and to educate people about the differences. As painful as it is to have to deal with this there has to be a way to use the opportunity in an "aikido" Bruce Lee type of way. Be like water my friends! For clarity I have not figured it out yet.

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## optimensch

I have tried the following with some minor success: " Fitting and installing Rx lenses requires more than just a PD. There are fitting heights, adjustments and other factors. We do install lenses on frames purchased elsewhere, always at the customers risk, and if you buy a frame online we will accept it. We do NOT give other dispensers, on-line or off-line, all this data, it is their individual responsibilities to fulfill these obligations." something like that.

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## DanLiv

I don't think the cheap online guys are even competition with quality opticals. If someone wants $95 glasses, were they _ever_ in the market for a $400 pair? I doubt it. If you buy a Ford Fiesta, were you really ever in the market for that Escalade with the 22" rims and 2000 watt sound system? I doubt it. Bently and Rolls aren't worried about Ford and Chevy, probably not even about Mercedes and BMW. Ford and Chevy buyers are not Bentley and Rolls customers, $95 (or less) glasses buyers are not boutique frame and free form lens customers. Even if online opticals did not exist, they wouldn't be visiting you, they still have Walmart, America's Best, Vision Works, Costco, Pearle, LC, Sears, JCPenney, etc., all of whom make cheaper eyewear than we do.

What scares me more than the cheap guys are the premium online guys, who sell the very same high-end free form progressives, top of the line AR, and designer frames we do, at half the price. I can easily demonstrate the benefits of my $400 SV pair over WP's $95 pair. But if the online guys get the Rx and measurements right (which the better ones do. It's not hard), how are you going to demonstrate the benefits of your $1000 free form progressive / premium AR / boutique frame eyewear against the very same frame/lens/AR online for $500? Sure, quality design, fitting, warranty, personal service, etc. Is that worth $500? To some. But if everyone knew you could get this high end stuff online as well, we would have a lot more challenge. The shopper with $500 to spend oneyewear won't be lured by 2 pairs for $99 brick-and-mortars or $8.95 onlineguys. But when they find it, they certainly _will_ be enticed by the opportunity to get the economically out of reach $1000 eyewear for the $500 they have. I _want_ that $500 shopper, and can do great things for them, but I am fighting directly with the apples-to-apples online guys. It's almost an advantage to us that the cheap online guys flood the "buy glasses online" search results, because that keeps the online shoppers away from our real competition. I was never expecting to see the $95 shopper anyway.

I have actually directed and recommended some of my customers buy online orcheck out Walmart for backup and extra pairs. If they want an extra pair forless than $100, that's great, but I don't want to make it for them. At that price there is nothing I can do for them that the cheap guys can't, and if they don't like the results I don't want to have anything to do with it either. Maybe Ive lost a couple customers, but I know Ive seen many since and theyve told me how much better my eyewear is, and having the cheap pair to compare to helped them understand the difference as well. Even makes them more confident to spend on their primary eyewear with me. They should get as many cheap extra pairs from others as they like. Thats not my bag.

No need to stop WP. They offer something some people want and do a really slick job of it too. If you want their customers, you have to compete with them. If you cant, welcome to free market. Compete where you are competitive and leave the rest of the market to those who serve that segment better.

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## optical24/7

NEWS FLASH!!!

1. Online is not going away!

2. Online is a sub-market. (currently a sub-sub market).

3. There are many different markets.

4. Online is simply another of your competitors.

5. You have_ far more_ to worry about from your B&M competitor down the street!

6. Compete on price at your own risk. ( It's a crowded market.)

7. Bring things to the table that your competitors don't (product/knowledge/CS)

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## CNG

I agree that PDs should be in inches and the reference point should be from the ear and not the nose! It is more accurate and avoids these silly threads that only irritate onliners...please take into consideration their feelings!!

CNG

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## Chris Ryser

You people got to look at the on-line market as if your own lab would start to sell direct on the internet at wholesale prices and tells the consumer to go to the optician to have the finals done. 

Then just do it and charge a fee you thinks is right for your ability and expirience. You will have to do it or only the luxury retailer will survive in a few years from now.

Why do you thinks that a corporation like Essilor is banking on the 2nd largest on-line optical worldwide. They are playing both sides of the street snd will be the winner at the end.

The only on-liner that showed up on Optiboard and had some interesting points has been forced off by general complaints, that was "Firmoo"and later on "Patrick888 ", the same person.

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## drk

I have a philosophical problem with online glasses/contact lens sellers and do-it-yourself consumers: 

either glasses are regulated medical devices or they're noteither a prescription is needed for glasses and contacts or they're noteither I need an O.D. degree to prescribe vision correction or anyone can do it themselveseither we have vision standards for students, motor vehicle operators, aviatiors etc. or we don't care about visioneither we can hold eye care professionals liable for product safety and standards of care, or there are noneeither we have state board laws regulating dispensing, or we don't give a hoot.

Make up your mind, regulators and legislators.   Just let me know.

If you do find that vision is important, then we'd better be talking about clarifying the regulations and enforcing them.  The internet is wonderful, but I don't see where it says that it has to be unregulated.

The problem is lack of leadership from the professions, really.  It's our problem.

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## denizen

I am kind of torn whether Americans want quality. From the glasses I have seen sold online, they are NOT quality eye wear.  All of those glasses are equal to five dollars and below wholesale. When you hold the frames, it shows. 

Judging from fast food, TV programs, furniture, car build quality, etc. Americans want cheap. They say they want quality BUT they sure do not want to pay the price for quality!  We have moved to a disposable society and glasses are no different. It is very unfortunate.

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## denizen

> .......................because the internet is and has been open and free and you can advertise just about anything you want, expensive or not as long as you follow some basic rules.
> Restrictions have to enforced but are not in this case, as corporations rule the world these days and they seem to be on the other side.
> 
> There is no more stopping them. So as a retailer you must adopt to the situation or specialize for the rich and wealthy, there is also plenty of them.
> 
> Here is a list of the 6 most successful ones copies from my optical website isting at: --------------------->   http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The page is no longer available. Could you please tell me what the second column determines? Is it ranking the popularity of the website? Thanks.

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## Chris Ryser

> *The page is no longer available. Could you please tell me what the second column determines? Is it ranking the popularity of the website? Thanks.
> *



The page is fully available at ------------------>  http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm

The second coloumn is the Google ranking and the next one the Alexa traffic ranking at --------->   http://www.alexa.com/

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## Dennis

The second column is the Google Page Rank, also known as PR. (Facebook has ER, Edge Rank) It determines the popularity of the website based on the Google patented algorithm, with more than 200 factors being considered, such as the links quality and quantity, links authority, web content, social media footprint, customer reviews, web layout, server response speed, many many factors.

To correct Chris's PR number and Alexa rank with the NEW order as follows: (As of Sept 29, 2012)

1. MisterSpex     PR 5, Alexa 18953   (Germany), Number of Facebook fans: 0

2. ZenniOptical             PR 5,  Alexa 24367   (US), Number of Facebook fans: 69K

3. WarbyParker   PR 6       Alexa 25801   (US), Number of Facebook fans: 93K

4. FramesDirect   PR 5,     Alexa 27486    (US), Number of Facebook fans: 6K

5. Firmoo,            PR 4, Alexa 27764   (US), Number of Facebook fans: 525K

6. EyeBuyDirect    PR 4 ,     Alexa 42659       (US), Number of Facebook fans: 6K

Normally a website above PR 3 is a good site.

Firmoo has the highest number of Facebook fans, as high as 525K; the second is WarbyParker with 93K. Facebook fan number becomes the biggest metrics of social network footprint for one website.

WarbyParker has higher PR of 6, because their publicity policy contains many press release in nation-wide high-authority media such New York Times, and recently they are airing new ADDRESSABLE TV ads at DishTV.

Hope this answers your question.

----------


## denizen

thank you both for the explanation.

----------


## opt63

The assumption that outfits like Warby Parker are just after the "bottom feeders" is quite frankly way off.  (On a side note, if folks have such a cynical view of potential customers this might explain ones struggling sales... just saying).  

Places like WP aren't focusing on the bottom of the market, they're really focusing on simple single vision Rx jobs (I don't believe they'll fill anything else) and targeting towards a certain fashion genre.  When looking at their customer base they're looking at the people that view glasses as part of their wardrobe.  They're going after the customer that owns and uses 3+ different pair, choosing a daily pair based on their mood and outfit.  This sort of customer wants a quality, fashionable pair of specs at a decent price--once that means they can own many different pairs.  This type of customer isn't going to buy one $600 pair of glasses... they're more interested in owning 4 $150 pair of glasses.  It would appear many of the folks pointing fingers at WP, with I might add a somewhat obvious tone of regret, clearly don't understand this very important and growing segment of today's optical customer base.       

As to what this means for us... well markets change and we need to adapt.  For a savvy simple single vision Rx customer it's hard to sell them a $500 pair of glasses.  That doesn't mean the customer is some sort of "bottom feeder."  It means that the person selling the specs isn't putting a product and service out there that people think is worth $500.  The fact that so many of us are upset though suggests that we are hurting and we're frustrated that we can't quickly adapt business models to meet consumer expectations.  We like to think of our industry as being part of the medical profession, but fundamentally optical is a consumer driven business and like any consumer driven business you either adapt to changing markets or you gradually become irrelivent.      

As for those hoping regulations will shut down WP and similar, this is a dead end.  We all like to think of specs as a "medical device" and from a functional standpoint they certainly are... but from a regulatory standpoint this is a whole different arena.  History has shown time and time again that specs are regulated more like a consumer product than a medical device.

I get the frustration with online... we all feel it.  But quite honestly we really have two choices: 1) continue to groan about it while it continues to steal away more customers, or 2) figure out how we evolve and adapt our business models to stay on top--we may not like the competition, but it IS increasingly our competition.  

Personally, I focus my time and energy on #2 lest I be part of the brick and mortar industry that the market will make irrelevant to make room for the growing online segment.  

Just my two cents...

----------


## Dennis

Online optical will be there around the world. There are two cases of venture capital funding supporting the online optical business, one is brille24.de (again in Germany), the other is WP. Relative reports see below, both cases occur in September of 2012: 


1. Brille24. de, in Sept 2012, http://www.finsmes.com/2012/09/brill...-partners.html  first round 12M Euro

2. WP, also in Sept 2012, http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/...es-36-million/, third round 36M USD

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## tx11

I guess we need to come up with an Master of Ophthalmic Retailing certification :Bounce:

----------


## Browman

> The assumption that outfits like Warby Parker are just after the "bottom feeders" is quite frankly way off.  (On a side note, if folks have such a cynical view of potential customers this might explain ones struggling sales... just saying).  
> 
> Places like WP aren't focusing on the bottom of the market, they're really focusing on simple single vision Rx jobs (I don't believe they'll fill anything else) and targeting towards a certain fashion genre.  When looking at their customer base they're looking at the people that view glasses as part of their wardrobe.  They're going after the customer that owns and uses 3+ different pair, choosing a daily pair based on their mood and outfit.  This sort of customer wants a quality, fashionable pair of specs at a decent price--once that means they can own many different pairs.  This type of customer isn't going to buy one $600 pair of glasses... they're more interested in owning 4 $150 pair of glasses.  It would appear many of the folks pointing fingers at WP, with I might add a somewhat obvious tone of regret, clearly don't understand this very important and growing segment of today's optical customer base.


Another market consideration: 20-somethings. It's no coincidence that most of the onlines are hocking big plastics; this is what flies with the early-20s to early 30s crowd right now. (Seriously, step back a moment, and look at WP's catalogue. Does anyone here really think that these people are taking your business from anyone over 40)? This demographic also has less purchasing power, a higher chance of no vision insurance, and more job and financial instability than someone in his/her mid-30s+. They may _like_ the idea of a designer frame with a $150 water-repellant AR coating, but their pocketbook says otherwise. The WPs of the net are offering them a product they _need, like,_ and _can afford._ Most of us aren't going to see these people in our places of business, anyway.

----------


## opt63

Agreed.  The issue for us though is that Warby sells high index with a decent (albeit private label) AR.  Frames are also private label and of good quality (from the few I've seen in person).  So how do we justify selling a product that is multiples more in price?  It's hard.  Really hard... and our industry has done a very poor job of convincing most consumers why X AR is better than Y AR (or pick your other expensive add on).  I go back to my original problem statement that an increasing number of consumers don't understand why we think our product and service is worth what we're asking.  The answers there are hard an will keep getting harder as online takes a firmer hold.  For now we focus on the more complicated Rx where online is, at least today, less of a viable option for many... but that too will like evolve in the future. Who knows the eyeglasses dispensing vending machine is probably closer than we'd like to think!

----------


## Barry Santini

> Agreed. The issue for us though is that Warby sells high index with a decent (albeit private label) AR. Frames are also private label and of good quality (from the few I've seen in person). So how do we justify selling a product that is multiples more in price? It's hard. Really hard... !


Not really. Firstly, most Rxs in these deep shapes are best done with moderate to high Abbe FF lenses, with pupil heights, panto, and wrap angles taken.  Plus, they're fitted by people (like me) that REALLY know how to fit eyewear.

With the above, plus many others, it's not hard at all to justify the cost difference.  I do it every day.

B

----------


## opt63

^^ :-) 

We agree there.  It can certainly be done but it does require work (you suggest it's not hard but one still does have to justify the prices--which you clearly do.).  However you also clearly have the right attitude too:  namely "I'll win because I'm going to produce a better product and convince the consumer to choose me."  The attitude of done on this forum seems to be "I don't like the competition so how do we get them shut down". The latter is one that's historically doomed for failure.

----------


## denizen

> Agreed.  The issue for us though is that Warby sells high index with a decent (albeit private label) AR.  Frames are also private label and of good quality (from the few I've seen in person).  So how do we justify selling a product that is multiples more in price?  It's hard.  Really hard... and our industry has done a very poor job of convincing most consumers why X AR is better than Y AR (or pick your other expensive add on).  I go back to my original problem statement that an increasing number of consumers don't understand why we think our product and service is worth what we're asking.  The answers there are hard an will keep getting harder as online takes a firmer hold.  For now we focus on the more complicated Rx where online is, at least today, less of a viable option for many... but that too will like evolve in the future. Who knows the eyeglasses dispensing vending machine is probably closer than we'd like to think!


Are you kidding? Good quality frames? They claim they come from the same factories as Ray Ban China but they are leagues apart.

I do agree that people need a more positive outlook.  Online companies compete for a particular niche. You cannot satisfy everybody even with products people use everyday like toilet paper. There are a ton of toilet paper brands for different preferences and at differing price points. 

Companies like Warby did not reinvent the wheel. They took aspects of companies already successful and implemented the positives. 

I will give one advice I paid nearly 10k for in consulting fees five years ago. Lol. The optical consultant stated I had too much of a mixture of frame pricing. I had crapola to high end. He says that is confusing to consumers. You either go low end and sell the hell out of them or you go high end. He stated when you go to buy nice clothes, you do not go to Target or Walmart. You head to places like Nordstroms. Different market. Focus on one market and do it well.

----------


## tx11

> Are you kidding? Good quality frames? They claim they come from the same factories as Ray Ban China but they are leagues apart.
> 
> I do agree that people need a more positive outlook.  Online companies compete for a particular niche. You cannot satisfy everybody even with products people use everyday like toilet paper. There are a ton of toilet paper brands for different preferences and at differing price points. 
> 
> Companies like Warby did not reinvent the wheel. They took aspects of companies already successful and implemented the positives. 
> 
> I will give one advice I paid nearly 10k for in consulting fees five years ago. Lol. The optical consultant stated I had too much of a mixture of frame pricing. I had crapola to high end. He says that is confusing to consumers. You either go low end and sell the hell out of them or you go high end. He stated when you go to buy nice clothes, you do not go to Target or Walmart. You head to places like Nordstroms. Different market. Focus on one market and do it well.




AND... IMHO don't get upset if consumers don't see the value for the price and take their money elsewhere. If you are okay with that, then you will be a happy optical retailer.

----------


## tx11

> Agreed.  The issue for us though is that Warby sells high index with a decent (albeit private label) AR.  Frames are also private label and of good quality (from the few I've seen in person).  So how do we justify selling a product that is multiples more in price?  It's hard.  Really hard... and our industry has done a very poor job of convincing most consumers why X AR is better than Y AR (or pick your other expensive add on).  I go back to my original problem statement that an increasing number of consumers don't understand why we think our product and service is worth what we're asking.  The answers there are hard an will keep getting harder as online takes a firmer hold.  For now we focus on the more complicated Rx where online is, at least today, less of a viable option for many... but that too will like evolve in the future. Who knows the eyeglasses dispensing vending machine is probably closer than we'd like to think!


Is there a way for B&M to ALSO compete on-line and keep some of that market?

----------


## idispense

as I mentioned earlier, on liners succeed because :

(1) they are willing to break laws.
(2) you are afraid to break laws 

but I should have added:

(3) you are afraid of your regulators and refuse to ask for value for your licensing dollars

For those of you that are wondering how to lower the cost of running a brick and mortar store so you can compete, the answer to that is simple:

Step (1) stop paying your license fees as many of you have pointed out that your regulators are doing nothing to stop the on liners. If that is the case and they are there for "Public Protection" then quit paying for no return on your investment. When their cash flow is cut off and they rethink their existence then revisit licensing. In the meantime lower your expenses. They are wasting your time and you are wasting your money. 

You won't do step (1) because you are afraid of the very thing you created, Regulators . Your fear to demand ROI (return on investment) created your 2nd problem , ON LINERS , they are not afraid to break laws because they know you are afraid to uphold them and your are scared and afraid of your own creation , Regulators. And Regulators are afraid to go up against on liners , why should they   spend money on that anyhow? 

Regulators already have your yearly money coming in like clock work  and you are afraid of them.  Regulators know that you are ruled by fear and will never oppose them or seek Return on Investment, they don't need to do anything risky. 

You created your own monster and you continue to feed it yearly and your fear creates the by product known as On Liners who do not share your vision and fear.

----------


## Barry Santini

I have a different philosophy about Warby Parker:

I think it will never be about the *percentage* of unhappy clients. Rather, it will be about the *total number of unhappy clients*

As with laser surgery, if someone knows someone who hears about someone...

Then THAT, non-complimentary social buzz will be the engine of stopping their growth. Therefore, you want them to enjoy tremendous success NOW...when they are least able to:

1. Have their contract labs handle it.
2. Ensure their contract labs deliver acceptable quality and vision
3. Consider using better lenses and AR (cost!)

Mark my words. You will see!

B

----------


## Browman

> as I mentioned earlier, on liners succeed because :
> 
> (1) they are willing to break laws.
> (2) you are afraid to break laws 
> 
> but I should have added:
> 
> (3) you are afraid of your regulators and refuse to ask for value for your licensing dollars
> 
> For those of you that are wondering how to lower the cost of running a brick and mortar store so you can compete, the answer to that is simple:


The part after (3) betrays the rest:




> lower the cost of running a brick and mortar store so you can compete


We can try and make ourselves feel noble all we like by talking about law breaking and low abiding, but ultimately, people aren't going to online because they get off on law breaking, and online would still be able to provide lower costs even with regulation. It's down to dollars and cents: For myriad reasons, some legitimate, some not, B&M is charging more than people are willing to pay. We're witnessing market adjustment, plain and simple.

----------


## Browman

> Are you kidding? Good quality frames? They claim they come from the same factories as Ray Ban China but they are leagues apart.


They're no Ray-Ban-- nothing is-- but there's a big space between Ray-Ban and pliable, melts-in-the-sun crap. In the world of online, it's a higher-end product than most are selling (and probably a lot more durable than some of our own B&M "budget" lines; I'd like to see an experiment of WP vs. Wal-Mart's "basic" zyls).

----------


## denizen

> They're no Ray-Ban-- nothing is-- but there's a big space between Ray-Ban and pliable, melts-in-the-sun crap. In the world of online, it's a higher-end product than most are selling (and probably a lot more durable than some of our own B&M "budget" lines; I'd like to see an experiment of WP vs. Wal-Mart's "basic" zyls).


probably comparable quality, but warby has a big leg up on the styling.

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## denizen

> [/COLOR]
> AND... IMHO don't get upset if consumers don't see the value for the price and take their money elsewhere. If you are okay with that, then you will be a happy optical retailer.


I totally agree. We all want to sell to anybody with money, but in the long run, better to target repeat customers. That loyalty comes with filling a niche. I concentrate on high end now. I sell less frames due to the price, but I make more money and work less than I did when I had the lower line frames. I have nothing against churning out lower and high margin frames, it is not the business model I wanted. Each their own.

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *They're no Ray-Ban-- nothing is-- but there's a big space between Ray-Ban and pliable, melts-in-the-sun crap. 
> *


You can find them all on http://alibaba.com .  A name means nothing anymore these days, there are frame manufacrurers by the ton in ever area of the globe: here is a count:

Select Country/Region
China (Mainland)                            (25723)South Korea                            (191)United States                            (188)Pakistan                            (40)

East Asia (26370)South Asia (140)Southeast Asia (64)North America (218)

Europe (49)Middle East (25)South America (5)Africa (1)

Australia                                    (76)Brazil                                    (4)Canada                                    (30)Costa Rica                                    (1)Fiji                                    (3)France                                    (8)Germany                                    (3)Greece                                    (2)Hong Kong                                    (179)Hungary                                    (1)India                                    (99)Indonesia                                    (2)Italy                                    (8)Japan                                    (66)Malaysia                                    (27)Netherlands                                    (2)New Zealand                                    (8)Philippines                                    (1)Singapore                                    (18)Spain                                    (1)Sri Lanka                                    (1)Syrian Arab Republic                                    (2)Taiwan                                    (211)Thailand                                    (7)Tunisia                                    (1)Turkey                                    (18)Ukraine                                    (9)United Arab Emirates                                    (5)United Kingdom                                    (15)Vietnam                                    (9)



Have fun checking them all out and find the real and fake ones

----------


## drk

> as I mentioned earlier, on liners succeed because :
> 
> (1) they are willing to break laws.
> (2) you are afraid to break laws 
> 
> but I should have added:
> 
> (3) you are afraid of your regulators and refuse to ask for value for your licensing dollars
> 
> ...


I applaud this.

I think if we can get the fine for violation way, way up, the States will have a revenue incentive to enforce.  Just like a speed trap in a podunk town.

----------


## opt63

> I applaud this.
> 
> I think if we can get the fine for violation way, way up, the States will have a revenue incentive to enforce.  Just like a speed trap in a podunk town.


It's really the Feds (ie the FTC) that we need to convince more so than the states.  Most online purchases are interstate commerce transactions. Historically the Feds have not been friendly to the views of many on this forum.  

When asked to comment on online optical in the past the FTC has been largely supportive of the idea.  For decades the FTC has enforced the rule that after an exam a patient but be given an Rx that contains all the info required for them to have a pair of glasses made by a business other than the one that provided the exam.  This is the problem with the views of many on this forum.  If we convince states that things like the PD are an essential exam measurement the FTC will likely simply turn around and say "fine, now you must include that on the patient Rx so it's available to the outfit producing the glasses"  

Of course it's better to make measurements as part of a personal fitting but quite frankly that argument is just too nuanced for a regulatory fight and the big lawyers the PE backed online shops would bring to any such fight would rip it up.  (After all people have been doing their own exams and fittings with drug shop readers for ages without much issue... Would a pair fitted and made by a master optician be better? Of course.  But should the former be blocked by regulation? That's probably not going to happen)

We need to focus our energy towards competing on quality of service not crying to regulators that very well may come down against us in the end anyway.

----------


## idispense

> ... Would a pair fitted and made by a master optician be better? Of course. But should the former be blocked by regulation? That's probably not going to happen)
> 
> We need to focus our energy towards competing on quality of service not crying to regulators that very well may come down against us in the end anyway.



There you have it , the fear at work ! The fear of repercussion .  The paranoia ... they will come to get me if I go crying to them and ask for a return on my investment. 

On-liners do not have that fear or that expense. They are not crippled in a changing world.

----------


## optimensch

A long-standing client (the whole family really) recently brought in about 6 pairs of WP frames. Needed progressives in all of them. Bitter sweet experience since it was a nice bit of work for us (6 pairs of HD progressives). All were bought a bit "sight (site?) unseen" and they all looked quite fine on him. To be totally honest, these frames had nice hinges, of the 5 or 7 barrel type. I thought the quality seemed quite ok , particularly for the price. These WP guys are venturing more in to Canada and into the PAL market soon. Oy vey.

----------


## MikeAurelius

> It's really the Feds (ie the FTC) that we need to convince more so than the states.  Most online purchases are interstate commerce transactions. Historically the Feds have not been friendly to the views of many on this forum.  
> 
> When asked to comment on online optical in the past the FTC has been largely supportive of the idea.  For decades the FTC has enforced the rule that after an exam a patient but be given an Rx that contains all the info required for them to have a pair of glasses made by a business other than the one that provided the exam.  This is the problem with the views of many on this forum.  If we convince states that things like the PD are an essential exam measurement the FTC will likely simply turn around and say "fine, now you must include that on the patient Rx so it's available to the outfit producing the glasses"  
> 
> Of course it's better to make measurements as part of a personal fitting but quite frankly that argument is just too nuanced for a regulatory fight and the big lawyers the PE backed online shops would bring to any such fight would rip it up.  (After all people have been doing their own exams and fittings with drug shop readers for ages without much issue... Would a pair fitted and made by a master optician be better? Of course.  But should the former be blocked by regulation? That's probably not going to happen)
> 
> We need to focus our energy towards competing on quality of service not crying to regulators that very well may come down against us in the end anyway.


+1. The FTC is on the side of the consumer. This has been shown time and time again. The more dispensers and opticians make it difficult for the patient to obtain an PD, the more the FTC will push back and ultimately they are going to rule that the PD is part of the prescription and you will be FORCED to provide it free of charge and in a form usable by ANYBODY. Which means not in inches, not in some secret code, but in millimeters, and most likely in monocular form.

There is always going to be a place for the brick and mortar store, just like there is going to always be a place for the on-line store. But the more you push against it by unfair (to the consumer) competition, the more likely it is that you are going to be slapped down by the Feds (regardless of who the President is).

----------


## idispense

What are you going to do when an accufit is mounted in a kiosk and coupled with a computer then placed in malls and workplaces so that the entire process of lens and frame ordering and insurance processing is done by the customer and then delivered directly to the customer and your B & M is totally bypassed because you did not even know your B&M was surrounded by these dispensing machines? 

You might think it is bad now that on-liners tell the public to go to you for fittings and measurements, but that is nothing compared to what is going to happen with the next generation of these machines.

----------


## idispense

The next generation of machine does not even need you , the customer takes all the accufit measurements themselves . It is the perfect machine tailor made for on-liners to enjoy explosive growth installed next door to you right in the workplace right under your  nose.  No need to drive to the mall after work . Don't need you for insurance processing and don't need you for measurements and Every supplier frame or every frame from a single supplier in it's database.

----------


## Fezz

> The next generation of machine does not even need you , the customer takes all the accufit measurements themselves . It is the perfect machine tailor made for on-liners to enjoy explosive growth installed next door to you right in the workplace right under your  nose.  No need to drive to the mall after work . Don't need you for insurance processing and don't need you for measurements and Every supplier frame or every frame from a single supplier in it's database.




So...........what's your point?

----------


## optilady1

> The next generation of machine does not even need you , the customer takes all the accufit measurements themselves . It is the perfect machine tailor made for on-liners to enjoy explosive growth installed next door to you right in the workplace right under your nose. No need to drive to the mall after work . Don't need you for insurance processing and don't need you for measurements and Every supplier frame or every frame from a single supplier in it's database.



Yeah, but the customers can't have it both ways.  Either it's no big deal where they buy glasses from, and they can quit their *itching about not seeing out of their glasses, or they can cough up a few extra bucks and pay for the service to fix any problems when they do occur.

----------


## idispense

> So...........what's your point?



... the next wave is going to hit B & M even harder as these machines are installed , you won't even know where your business went until it is gone .....

----------


## Browman

> There you have it , the fear at work ! The fear of repercussion .  The paranoia ... they will come to get me if I go crying to them and ask for a return on my investment. 
> 
> On-liners do not have that fear or that expense. They are not crippled in a changing world.


It's because online is looking for a way to get a piece of the market-- lower to middle income consumers-- that we're actively trying to @#^% by charging them for PDs and the like. From the patient's point of view, _we are the bad guy,_ and in a lot of ways it's because _we've done it to ourselves._ We've had entire threads here-- even just in the short amount of time I've lurked/posted here-- about how bad a reputation opticians have in the world, and how in so many ways this is due to the behavior/attitudes of opticians towards our patients. In the battle between online and B&M, what the patient sees is this: A B&M selling necessary products he/she cannot afford; an online selling necessary products he/she _can_ afford; and the B&M charging him/her $95 in a very obvious attempt to force him/her to buy the necessary product he/she cannot afford. Justified or not, the world has many words for such behavior-- bullying and extortion are two of them.

----------


## tx11

business man/women OR healthcare professional? 

OPTICIANS POINT OF VIEW
Business= make as much money as you can from everybody who graces your shop.

Healthcare= help every person who graces your shop to see better ( no matter how much they have to spend).

CONSUMERS POINT OF VIEW

Business=Shop until until I find the best price for the product (or the function of the product) that I want.

Healthcare= Seek someone who cares and will ENABLE me to see better.

TWO DIFFERENT MINDSETS.

----------


## denizen

> What are you going to do when an accufit is mounted in a kiosk and coupled with a computer then placed in malls and workplaces so that the entire process of lens and frame ordering and insurance processing is done by the customer and then delivered directly to the customer and your B & M is totally bypassed because you did not even know your B&M was surrounded by these dispensing machines? 
> 
> You might think it is bad now that on-liners tell the public to go to you for fittings and measurements, but that is nothing compared to what is going to happen with the next generation of these machines.


I think these machines already exist in Japan and they are not very popular. There is nothing that can account for a human touch. Even online retailers have to have people that answer the phone.

----------


## denizen

Either way, online businesses are not going away. You have to adapt your business accordingly.

----------


## tx11

Adapt adapt adapt adapt

----------


## drk

> +1. The FTC is on the side of the consumer. This has been shown time and time again. The more dispensers and opticians make it difficult for the patient to obtain an PD, the more the FTC will push back and ultimately they are going to rule that the PD is part of the prescription and you will be FORCED to provide it free of charge and in a form usable by ANYBODY. Which means not in inches, not in some secret code, but in millimeters, and most likely in monocular form.
> 
> There is always going to be a place for the brick and mortar store, just like there is going to always be a place for the on-line store. But the more you push against it by unfair (to the consumer) competition, the more likely it is that you are going to be slapped down by the Feds (regardless of who the President is).


Mike, I think you're swallowing the premise that it's about the p.d. and we are obstructionists.  The better "narrative" is that vision care is regulated and they are flouting laws and need stopped.

If the consumers complain (and they never do...it's the owners of the websites) before the professionals do, then who's fault is that?

----------


## drk

Idispense is right.  This is bad stuff.

----------


## tx11

> Mike, I think you're swallowing the premise that it's about the p.d. and we are obstructionists.  The better "narrative" is that vision care is regulated and they are flouting laws and need stopped.
> 
> If the consumers complain (and they never do...it's the owners of the websites) before the professionals do, then who's fault is that?


OPTICIANRY IS NOT REGULATED in MANY states. Optometry and Ophthalmology is regulated in every state.

----------


## rbaker

> The next generation of machine does not even need you , the customer takes all the accufit measurements themselves . It is the perfect machine tailor made for on-liners to enjoy explosive growth installed next door to you right in the workplace right under your  nose.  No need to drive to the mall after work . Don't need you for insurance processing and don't need you for measurements and Every supplier frame or every frame from a single supplier in it's database.


Back in the early 70's when autorefractors first appeared on the scene a friend and I seriously thought about hooking up a coin changer and installing them outside our optician office in the mall. Deposit four quarters and look into the eyepiece. When you hear the beep your Rx will be printed and appear in the slot just below the eyepiece. We never got around to implementing this plan as there were some technical issues interfacing the two devices.

----------


## drk

Yes.  If you refract and provide a "pseudo-prescription" you are practicing optometry.  No no.

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## idispense

Laws differ in different places , in some places opticians are forbidden by the Minister of Health to refract, however even in those provinces , refraction itself is in the public domain therefore anyone can refract, just not an optician in some provinces of Canada. Correct me if I am wrong but anyone off the street in some provinces of Canada, who is not an optician, can legally refract. 

There is actually nothing wrong with refracting but where the trouble begins is what you do with the results of that refraction because then you would be prescribing and in many provinces of Canada an optician is forbidden to prescribe . 

Now lets say you are not an optician and you own a vending machine and place it in a mall allowing the public to refract themselves for a fee . Who has jurisdiction to stop the renting of the machine or the public domain act of the public refracting themselves ? 

Now lets go a step further who is going to fill that RX ? Lets say that the print out looks like any DR's rx format and it contains the same data . Can the public go on line and fill it ? Who is going to stop them and who would have jurisdiction ?

Who would the prescriber be , the owner of the machine , the machine itself, the manufacturer of the machine,  or the public operating the machine ? 

 Can the public walk into an optician or optometrist and fill it ? Hopefully not but where is the difference ?

----------


## MikeAurelius

> Mike, I think you're swallowing the premise that it's about the p.d. and we are obstructionists.  The better "narrative" is that vision care is regulated and they are flouting laws and need stopped.
> 
> If the consumers complain (and they never do...it's the owners of the websites) before the professionals do, then who's fault is that?


It isn't a premise. All any consumer has to do, and I'm sure more than a few have, is peruse the threads here on pd's. After all, this forum is "open" in the sense that if you use google on a specific optical subject, threads from Optiboard will show up in your results. By far, the numbers of posts AGAINST providing pd's outweigh those FOR providing pd's. And then there are those who have spoken about secret codes or providing a number that is modified by math, or even providing it in inches.

Vision care is NOT regulated in all 50 states. If it was, then your statement would be true.

Consumers *DO* complain all the time to the FTC. How else do you think the FTC managed to force OD's and MD's to give out prescriptions to their patients? 

Whose fault is it? Any optician/optometrist/dispenser who takes a PD and then refuses to give it to the patient.

And please, spare me the old song and dance that the PD is unique to a given pair of glasses. It isn't and you know deep down it isn't. It is a physical measurement of the eyes, exactly the same as the correction required taken during during the eye exam.

Do you change the PD to fit a particular pair of glasses? Yes, you do. But you start with the basic measurement first. That makes the adjusted PD part of the individual pair of spectacles, but not the original PD. Seg heights are also part of the individual spectacle as the bifocal/trifocal/progressive fits differently in any given frame.

Yes, there are occasionally people who have malformed bridges either from birth or accident. That's why you provide a monocular PD. Eyes offset vertically? In truth, how many of those folks are actually going to go to an on-liner? Answer: probably none.

I've long stated that the PD issue is much ado about nothing, but the opticians/dispensers/OD's want to hold it tight as a unique part of their business. It isn't. It never has been.

Just give the PD and let the patient go. If they use your dispensary, fine. If they go down the street to someone else, fine. If they go online, let them. They were never "yours" to begin with.

Sell the patient on WHY they should use an in-person fitting and dispensing process. Educate them on exactly the problems with their particular prescription that requires in-person fitting and dispensing. If they choose to go elsewhere (including online), then let them. You can't stop a consumer from shopping wherever they please. You folks tried that by witholding the Rx, and look how that ended...

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## tx11

2009= People purchase eyewear on-line....repsponse "that's a fad, it will pass"
2010 =Even more people purchase eyewear on-line.... response " that's not my market"
2011=Even more STILL purchase eyewear on line....response "I'm a professional.I do opticianry better than them. That's not my market"
2012=On-line market for eyewear continues to grow even at the $95.00 price & technology gets more sophisticated...response "the 'bottom feeders' are not my market"
_FAST forward 12 years....  "Hey, where did my market go?"

OK Optiboarders. Here's your mission IF you choose to accept it: Realistically .How can we as optical professionals move into the on line market ,still maintain the integrity of what we do and the functionality of the products that we would dispense? Lets assume that we cannot fight this. How can we join in and offer a GOOD  outcome at an attractive price to the consumer AND yet STILL earn a GOOD living? This post will self destruct in 10 seconds






_

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## Barry Santini

_If they go down the street to someone else, fine. If they go online, let them. They were never "yours" to begin with."


_This is an oft-repeated phrase that is so completely wrong. It is the process of letting a client sample other sales points for eyewear that will make them yours.. if you've been doing your job.

B

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## Barry Santini

> 2009= People purchase eyewear on-line....repsponse "that's a fad, it will pass"
> 2010 =Even more people purchase eyewear on-line.... response " that's not my market"
> 2011=Even more STILL purchase eyewear on line....response "I'm a professional.I do opticianry better than them. That's not my market"
> 2012=On-line market for eyewear continues to grow even at the $95.00 price & technology gets more sophisticated...response "the 'bottom feeders' are not my market"
> _FAST forward 12 years.... "Hey, where did my market go?"
> 
> OK Optiboarders. Here's your mission IF you choose to accept it: Realistically .How can we as optical professionals move into the on line market ,still maintain the integrity of what we do and the functionality of the products that we would dispense? Lets assume that we cannot fight this. How can we join in and offer a GOOD outcome at an attractive price to the consumer AND yet STILL earn a GOOD living? This post will self destruct in 10 seconds
> 
> 
> ...


You can NOT do the most profesional and quality job through the online environment.

Period.

B

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## MikeAurelius

> _If they go down the street to someone else, fine. If they go online, let them. They were never "yours" to begin with."
> 
> 
> _This is an oft-repeated phrase that is so completely wrong. It is the process of letting a client sample other sales points for eyewear that will make them yours.. if you've been doing your job.
> 
> B


Barry, the very next paragraph, which you might have overlooked, takes care of that...




> Sell the patient on WHY they should use an in-person fitting and dispensing process. Educate them on exactly the problems with their particular prescription that requires in-person fitting and dispensing. If they choose to go elsewhere (including online), then let them. You can't stop a consumer from shopping wherever they please. You folks tried that by witholding the Rx, and look how that ended...

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## MikeAurelius

> You can NOT do the most profesional and quality job through the online environment.
> 
> Period.
> 
> B


I agree! But the on-line customer isn't looking for "the most professional and quality job". He/she is looking for a less-cost alternative.

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## Fezz

> You can NOT do the most profesional and quality job through the online environment.
> 
> Period.
> 
> B



I so agree with this!

My opinion is:

I can not be all things to all people! I have identified my target market, I work at providing the best quality, service, and value that I possibly can to that market. If my position is incorrect and all of my patients/customers go elsewhere or purchase online, I have not done my job!

I can always fall back on my modeling career!

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## optilady1

> I can always fall back on my modeling career!



Mountain men monthly?

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## Barry Santini

> I agree! But the on-line customer isn't looking for "the most professional and quality job". He/she is looking for a less-cost alternative.



In many cases, and from many ECPs, the clients won't know the difference until they try.  It is not always about less cost.

B

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## Fezz

> Mountain men monthly?



Hey........a subscriber!!!

The 2013 calendar should be out in next months edition!



 :Dance:  :Skip:  :Dance:

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## optical24/7

> _If they go down the street to someone else, fine. If they go online, let them. They were never "yours" to begin with."
> 
> 
> _This is an oft-repeated phrase that is so completely wrong. It is the process of letting a client sample other sales points for eyewear that will make them yours.. if you've been doing your job.
> 
> B


+1. I wish I had a dime for every client that went elsewhere, only to come back. Most left to try a (supposed) lower price point, only to return as *lifers*.




> You can NOT do the most professional and quality job through the online environment.
> 
> Period.
> 
> B


Another +1. No way can you provide superior service without a face to face. DCD's will never be able to compete in the "total package" of best form eyecare delivery.

Lastly, anybody that thinks they can compete with online on price, and complains about them undercutting you....There are B&M's, probably just down the road from you selling product at net type of prices! Where's the outcry on them? Just because the guy across the street is selling cheap doesn't necessarily make him competition. And if you think "everybody" will be buying glasses off the net; Go research what percentage of consumers buy their CL's off the net and get back to me. After almost 20 years of entrenchment, millions spent on TV, radio and print advertising ( who's not heard of 1-800?) a very small percentage purchase them that way, and that's for a _commodity_!

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## optilady1

> Hey........a subscriber!!!
> 
> The 2013 calendar should be out in next months edition!


Woo Hoo!  
I can finally get rid of my Edward Cullen calendar!
Racoon skin and shot guns here I come!!!!

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## MikeAurelius

> In many cases, and from many ECPs, the clients won't know the difference until they try.  It is not always about less cost.
> 
> B


In the customer's mind it is.

I think that's the problem that most of "you" (used it advisedly...) have with this idea. I agree that there is a huge difference in "quality of vision" between an on-line pair and an in-person pair. BUT the big but is that I don't believe the customer really cares about that. Do they care that they can't perfectly read a billboard on the side of the road 3/4 of a mile away? No. They wait until it's a 1/4 mile away IF they are interested in what it says.

The mindset of the on-line customer is almost ALWAYS on saving money. They buy their books and even groceries on-line because it is more convienent and because they've been sucked into the idea that the on-line experience is going to save them money. How many people here have iPods or Kindle's or whathaveyou that you down load music or audio/e-books on? Why aren't you going down to the local music store or the local book store to buy the CD or the printed book? It's exactly the same thing with eyewear. If they can buy it on-line, they will, first, because it's available, and second, because there is the appearance of it being less expensive than going to the optician/dispenser. AND they can do it at 2AM in the morning.

Barry, I totally understand where you are coming from. If I lived anywhere near you, I'd come to you to get my glasses done. Because I know the end product will be a perfectly finished pair of spectacles that will exceed my vision requirements. But I know you, and your reputation. I know the inherent value of an excellently made pair of spectacles, and I would gladly pay you for your expertise.

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## tx11

> You can NOT do the most profesional and quality job through the online environment.
> 
> Period.
> 
> B


That being said IF you had to operate a dispensary on-line,what would you do to minimalize the amount of unprofessionalism and maximize the quality of the end product? Surely these people who purchase on line can see with their purchaseed eyewear. So we know that is possible.

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## Barry Santini

> That being said IF you had to operate a dispensary on-line,what would you do to minimalize the amount of unprofessionalism and maximize the quality of the end product? Surely these people who purchase on line can see with their purchaseed eyewear. So we know that is possible.


There are no absolutes...only varying degrees.

My position is we deliver the Best lenses, service, fit and vision.  And we "hug" you.

And further, it's our position that you will only be able to get this HERE in the store.

Kinda like Mama's Fish House in Maui...nowhere else.

B

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## idispense

> You can NOT do the most profesional and quality job through the online environment.
> 
> Period.
> 
> B



You are right Barry but only to a dwindling extent. 

You can do an Online Professional Quality Job ! 

Would you have thought  a custom frame could be made while the patient waits for a 3 d printer to produce or replicate it ?

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## idispense

> 2009= People purchase eyewear on-line....repsponse "that's a fad, it will pass"
> 2010 =Even more people purchase eyewear on-line.... response " that's not my market"
> 2011=Even more STILL purchase eyewear on line....response "I'm a professional.I do opticianry better than them. That's not my market"
> 2012=On-line market for eyewear continues to grow even at the $95.00 price & technology gets more sophisticated...response "the 'bottom feeders' are not my market"
> _FAST forward 12 years.... "Hey, where did my market go?"
> 
> OK Optiboarders. Here's your mission IF you choose to accept it: Realistically .How can we as optical professionals move into the on line market ,still maintain the integrity of what we do and the functionality of the products that we would dispense? Lets assume that we cannot fight this. How can we join in and offer a GOOD outcome at an attractive price to the consumer AND yet STILL earn a GOOD living? This post will self destruct in 10 seconds
> 
> 
> _


_that is easy , very easy . use a remote accufit kiosk or tele-video accufit equipped with frames data base , virtual try on software. 


In Ontario the pharmacy laws were changed to allow tele - video automatic drug dispensing machines , there are many in place but the one that comes to mind is in Sunnybrook I believe. 


The same will work for opticians and your income will be geared to how many of these measurement/frame selector vending machines you own and place in good locations._ 

Once opticians start placing these machines in malls and factories they will regain some of what they have lost to onliners in their local circles of influence. 

Keep in mind though that you won't be the only contender. A smart frame distributor will have his own ! And your local lab will too .

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## idispense

Another way to participate in online is to place frame vending machines in high traffic areas . Load the machine with the most popular frames and priced with minimal margins . the ypay with a credit card and the selection A-12 is now dispensed . Yes they only have the frame but now they can send it to the lab themselves and the lab mails it to you for verification and you call in the customer or mail it to the customer after check out.


....of course this vending machine would have a 3d picture of Barry hugging them .

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## tx11

> Another way to participate in online is to place frame vending machines in high traffic areas . Load the machine with the most popular frames and priced with minimal margins . the ypay with a credit card and the selection A-12 is now dispensed . Yes they only have the frame but now they can send it to the lab themselves and the lab mails it to you for verification and you call in the customer or mail it to the customer after check out.
> 
> 
> ....of course this vending machine would have a 3d picture of Barry hugging them .


 :Bounce:

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## Chris Ryser

> *So...........what's your point?
> *



I guess that Idispense did not want to come out with it fully, and seeing from the other post's we get all the same type answers " you can't see" but for a few more bucks you can.

I will start a new thread on the subject, maybe now is the time.

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## sharpstick777

We need to demand that all eyewear, before dispense by any means, be inspected by an optician licensed in your state and held to specific quality standards.  




> What can we do as a group of licensed ophthalmic dispensers to Stop the sale of online glasses in licensed states where it's mandated that eyewear needs to be manufactured and dispensed by licensed professionals?
> 
> Why can they break the law across state borders when we can't?

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## sharpstick777

The biggest defense we have against online sales:
1)  Carry only optical branded frame companies that don't allow online sales, in any means
2)  Provide incredible expertise in picking out and fitting  eyewear, frankly, some opticians are very mediocre.
3)  Become lens experts, not just frame experts.  We need to know what progressive lenses work best with what lifestyles.





> What can we do as a group of licensed ophthalmic dispensers to Stop the sale of online glasses in licensed states where it's mandated that eyewear needs to be manufactured and dispensed by licensed professionals?
> 
> Why can they break the law across state borders when we can't?

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## cwinma

Without reading 5 pages so this may be in one, I saw this: http://www.facebook.com/warbyparkerjoke

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## Barry Santini

> You are right Barry but only to a dwindling extent. 
> 
> You can do an Online Professional Quality Job ! 
> 
> Would you have thought  a custom frame could be made while the patient waits for a 3 d printer to produce or replicate it ?


I'll keep an open mind on the whole 3D frame printer thingy. But, having already done close to two years of custom fits with TD Tom Davies frames, I can tell you that 3D printing of frames is not the savior some might think it is.  There's so much more than cordinate points for a truly bespoke fit.

B

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## Barry Santini

> That being said IF you had to operate a dispensary on-line,what would you do to minimalize the amount of unprofessionalism and maximize the quality of the end product? Surely these people who purchase on line can see with their purchaseed eyewear. So we know that is possible.


If I were in charge of, say Warby Parker, they'd be a whole lot more of a threat than their inexperienced, small thinking principals in charge are now. There's quite a bit that could be done to make operations like WP more than a joke to experienced ECPs.

But they'd still not be able to deliver at the highest level. However, they would redefine and raise the bar for what would be considered good enough/adequate. And what most eyewear dispensing in B&M's passes today for as adequate would swap places with the joke that some think WP is now.

Fact.

b

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## idispense

I doubt the current 3 d printer technology is good enough yet except for non critical parts such as replicating PD sticks , however it is very interesting and has potential that we have not dreamed of yet. 

BTW I meant "you can do an Online Professional Quality job" as being in a class by itself and not the same as a in person quality job.

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## Chris Ryser

> *That being said IF you had to operate a dispensary on-line,what would you do to minimalize the amount of unprofessionalism and maximize the quality of the end product? Surely these people who purchase on line can see with their purchaseed eyewear. So we know that is possible.
> *



The last time I did see a job purchased by a friend on-line was 2 years ago. I checked it and there was nothing wrong with it.
I have perodically checked on the internet on complaints about on-line opticals but can not find any recent ones, they all date back 2-3 years.

Have they gone worse, or maybe not ..........................

Also when advertising on the internet one can give a personalized professional service we do it all the time, no shopping cart, you ask we answer.

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## Fezz

Why don't we concentrate more on what we are doing instead of wasting time fretting over what others are doing?

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## mdeimler

> Why don't we concentrate more on what we are doing instead of wasting time fretting over what others are doing?


Ground breaking idea...

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## tx11

> Why don't we concentrate more on what we are doing instead of wasting time fretting over what others are doing?


If there is a significant shift in they way eyewear is to be ordered and delivered and at what price point ,shouldn't we be trying to figure out how we will fit into that new business model? :Unsure:

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## tx11

Who would have thought that people would trust their vision to retail chains and yet they are everywhere. Change happens... change is comming. Lets not complain, lets adapt. Barry sounds like you might have SOME ideas. What is it that we do not like about on-line? How can we join online and take away those issues that we do not like? At any rate lets be a part of the change and not just try to catch up later.

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## optical24/7

> If there is a significant shift in they way eyewear is to be ordered and delivered and at what price point ,shouldn't we be trying to figure out how we will fit into that new business model?


What do you consider significant? As far as price, do you live around San Antonio? Open your Sunday funnies. Full page add by a national chain, "2 pair of PAL's complete for 79 bucks". How much cheaper are they on the net? I'm tellin' ya, you have price competition already with B&M's around you. As Fezz says, it's best to worry about what you are doing and how to connect with _your_ market.

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## mdeimler

Ok.  Get some Parade frames, Image lenses and there you go.  Cost is less than (wholesale pricing removed)and denote on that patients chart something that differentiates them from the other patients who pay $300 to $1000 retail for 1 pair.  React and adapt.

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## Barry Santini

In b&m, you're not just selling products...you're selling _you!_
Just how cheaply will you go?
Q: r u worth anything???

Sheesh!

B

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## tx11

That's a good question. Who really determines what amount we are worth? Do we as opticians? Our employers? The consumer?. Heres another question :Has anyone EVER purchased eyewear somewhere other than your shop and come in and asked you to adjust them or trouble shoot them w/o expecting to pay for the service? Have you ever had to accept less than what you thought your were worth from an employer in order to be employed?? I suppose that the market and the Laws reguarding what we do really determines what we are worth.

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## sharpstick777

Let's take the way back machine a little bit...

1970s:   Plastic lenses will destroy the optical industry!
             The AO and B&L monopoly will destroy the optical industry!
1980's:  Lenscrafters will destroy the optical industry!
1990's:  Lasik surgery will destroy the optical industry!
2000's:  Online Contact sales will destroy the optical industry!   
             Essilor's monopoly will destroy the Optical Industry!
2010's:  VSP & Eyemed will destroy the optical industry!

and now:
             Online Eyewear Sales will destroy the optical industry!

Every decade we face a challenge.  And every decade, smart hard working optical professionals meet it or beat it.   The key is not what we do, its in who we are:  Very knowledgeable and passionate professionals that bring to the table excellent skills, vast experience and great customer service.

Up your game, and you have nothing to worry about.





> Why don't we concentrate more on what we are doing instead of wasting time fretting over what others are doing?

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## optical24/7

> Let's take the way back machine a little bit...
> 
> 1970s: Plastic lenses will destroy the optical industry!
> The AO and B&L monopoly will destroy the optical industry!
> 1980's: Lenscrafters will destroy the optical industry!
> 1990's: Lasik surgery will destroy the optical industry!
> 2000's: Online Contact sales will destroy the optical industry! 
> Essilor's monopoly will destroy the Optical Industry!
> 2010's: VSP & Eyemed will destroy the optical industry!
> ...


Sharp, I've posted the same thing here numerous times. Yet still, there are those that have a chicken little mentality.  :Banghead:

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## Chris Ryser

> *Sharp, I've posted the same thing here numerous times. Yet still, there are those that have a chicken little mentality. 
> *





> Originally Posted by *sharpstick777*
> and now:
> *Online Eyewear Sales will destroy the optical industry!
> 
> Every decade we face a challenge. And every decade, smart hard working optical professionals meet it or beat it. The key is not what we do, its in who we are: Ve**ry knowledgeable and passionate professionals th**at bring to the table excellent skills, vast experience and great customer service.
> 
> Up your game, and you have nothing to worry about.*



Here is a chicken mentality argument.......................... on history repeats itself, and maybe not this time

Sadly enough these "* Very knowledgeable and passionate professionals* "  are slowly going the way of the dinosaurs, which became extinct and never came back to rule the world.

They are beeing replaced by stylist's with very basic requrements for licensing or in other states do not even need that. The world of retail optics is changing for the better or ................

Would it be chicken mentality not to recognize the danger presented by a new type industry, that is using latest technogy in mass advertising, in our field, that threatens the future lively hood of the conventional B+M store, and apply adjustments and changes needed to face the facts.

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## optimensch

well, the online onslaught will continue and even well-armed (VC-financed) Warby will have plenty of new competition. How many of these pure online plays will ever actually be profitable remains to be seen. I suspect only a small %. People want to invest in a good online story, and the fabled, astronomical margins of optical retailing are an easy target. Just as our contact lens selling model changed when the 1-800....guys and the lens.com guys came on, now glasses are undergoing a tectonic shift. Charge more for service and less for hardware. We also need to work on stopping the "showrooming" phenomenon and carry more private label. WP ain't sellin' raybans and prada.

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## Fezz

> WP ain't sellin' raybans and prada.


Maybe not, but a majority of other onliners are!

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## optical24/7

Chris, as sharp (and I have) pointed out is that we, as an industry, have seen many perceived challenges and advancements that *were* going to negatively affect our livelihoods and profession, only to see, as an industry, tremendous growth. Even in this recession, many of us have seen record sales.

Now consider this....If (and that's a big if) the vast majority of consumers elect to purchase eye wear over the net it won't be just optical in trouble, but every conceivable B&M industry that supplies a product, and we, (optical) will be one of the last to close store fronts. Why? Because eye wear is one of the products the consumer prefers to purchase in person. Eye wear, like clothing needs to be "felt" and seen in person to get not just a comfortable fit but to compare how it really looks worn. Eye wear, like clothing is a very person item purchased. People want to experience the look and feel prior to purchase.

Optical is not like the video or print media that can be easily replicated over the net. Eye wear has too many variables to be a commodity like Tide detergent. Even a true commodity like contacts are sold over the net 15% of the time, after many, many years being offered there. Eye wear will never reach the percentage of sales over the net as CL's.

Internet sales of eye wear will continue, and grow for sure, but keep in mind that optical is a HUGE multi, multi billion dollar industry. The net is surely a form of competition just as the B&M down the street is. I welcome competition. If client try them, it makes my products and services that much more valuable to them. I know that as a total "package", my products and services are superior to theirs.

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## Barry Santini

Even as traditional b&m margins are driven down, the difference between adequate online and good B&M eyewear, looked at over a 2-3 year period, is not enough to put off consumers who want the best product, service and care for their vision needs.

And this statement includes hybrid deveopments for successful B&M ECPs going forward.
B

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## drk

You have to consider the hybrid plague of vision care plans and online retailing.  What if Davis or Optum or Eyemed or VSP begin offering an online "store"?  They have the means.  Cut out the labs, cut out the providers, etc.

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## JMC

This is an excellent thread subject OptiMon.  I personally don't think there are any legal avenues to stop Warby Parker or any other online retailer.  Please read my related article here.

Thanks,
Jason C.

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## Chris Ryser

> *You have to consider the hybrid plague of vision care plans and online retailing.  What if Davis or Optum or Eyemed or VSP begin offering an online "store"?  They have the means.  Cut out the labs, cut out the providers, etc.
> *



That is most probably going to happen in the very nearfuture. There is nothing to hold them back. They pay the tab of the consumerand must be thinking that paying themselves might be more advantageous and theycould even make it a condition to make that sale direct to the consumer.

Today themanufacturers selling prices in many or most fields have been rolled back indirect, today's Dollars to the mid 1960's level, while the middle man (importer,wholesaler) works with much higher margins, or requires large quantity purchasesto bring the goods pricing to a real life level. 
So, the optical on-linebusiness in order to be successful, needs good financing by some large corporations, or needs the cooperation of some large labs in a developing country.

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## sharpstick777

Its important to note, that Soft Contact lenses represent the qualities of a commodity far more than glasses and opthalmic lenses.  An Acuvue Oasys is and Acuvue Oasys no matter where you buy it, once its perscribed, it looks the same on everyone.  Yet, even today, online contact sales has only penetrated 18% of the soft lens market.   Most patients still buy their contact lenses at their Private Practice Professional.  It may FEEL like you are losing every sale, but its simply not true.

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## Barry Santini

> This is an excellent thread subject OptiMon. I personally don't think there are any legal avenues to stop Warby Parker or any other online retailer. Please read my related article here.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jason C.


Don't stop them.  They define why *you* cost more.

B

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## LENNY

> Its important to note, that Soft Contact lenses represent the qualities of a commodity far more than glasses and opthalmic lenses.  An Acuvue Oasys is and Acuvue Oasys no matter where you buy it, once its perscribed, it looks the same on everyone.  Yet, even today, online contact sales has only penetrated 18% of the soft lens market.   Most patients still buy their contact lenses at their Private Practice Professional.  It may FEEL like you are losing every sale, but its simply not true.


I wonder where did you get this info!
I would think that % is/was much higher!

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## penny

I didn't even know who Warby Parker was but went to their site.  Hey they sell a monocle! You don't need a PD for a monocle, those rats, we're doomed I tells ya, doomed.

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## Reliable Optics

> I didn't even know who Warby Parker was but went to their site.  Hey they sell a monocle! You don't need a PD for a monocle, those rats, we're doomed I tells ya, doomed.


Love your thinking!

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## Jubilee

I did some research on Warby Parker this weekend, and I must say.. I am impressed.

The whole 60 mins feature on CBS was pretty much based upon some of the videos/interviews WP has up on youtube explaining why there is such a need. They only do SV at the moment, but are working on their digital fitting system to do multifocals as well. 

They have a showroom at their main office, and several across the US that people can try on the glasses, get measured, and submit their order on an I-Pad or Mac. 

They are blending the lines between traditional B&M's, and online. With their starting price, I believe many B&Ms can match/beat their pricing with good purchasing. (think Fezz/Johns )

I suggest watching some of the interviews. It will make you think.

----------

