# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Which Essilor lens for me?

## Dd

I'm looking at possibly getting my first pair of glasses after using readers for the last five years. I finally had my eyes checked and was told I need a progressive no-line lens. I have to say that I'm amazed at the lack of professionalism that I've encountered so far. Many outfits look at you like you have two heads if you ask what brand lens they are selling you
 or what kind of anti-glare coating. Sure... I don't care... it's only money.  :hammer:
 So much misinformation...  but I guess this is true in everything nowadays.
 Thank goodness I've found this forum!

Anyway, I've heard the two kinds of varilux lens Comfort and Panamic are the best no-line progressives. I'm wondering how it compares with the ovation or the natural. I see there are are others but I'm just going by what seems to be most commonly sold.

Also when I ask about crizal most places say they don't know what anti-glare coating goes on the lenses and that it is done at the factory. Are the lenses ordered from essilor and would they put the coating on there or do the retailers order them and put their own anti-glare coating on? I've heard anything but Crizal will come off.

I was told today that polycarbonate lenses scratch more easily than plastic. Is this true? Maybe I don't need/want polycarbonate then.


 At the very least I might ignore the 50% off sales and read this forum for a few months before making a decision. I might just stick with the two pairs of readers I've been carrying... not sure. 


 I am:    OD + 1.00  - 025 x  120
        OS + 1.00  - 025 x  180
          Add  + 1.50

 Thanks for any input.  :)

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## Robert Martellaro

> Anyway, I've heard the two kinds of varilux lens Comfort and Panamic are the best no-line progressives.


It would be more accurate to say that the Panamic is one of the better designs.




> Are the lenses ordered from essilor and would they put the coating on there or do the retailers order them and put their own anti-glare coating on?


Both are possible.




> I've heard anything but Crizal will come off.


Not true. 




> I was told today that polycarbonate lenses scratch more easily than plastic. Is this true?


Nope.

Find an experienced optician who get's it right the first time.

Hope this helps

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## Bobie

Hi , Dd

I agree with Robert for your choice at below ;

1. The best quality and value : Varilux Panamic

2. The value and the world choice : Varilux Comfort

Varilux Panamic is total better than Varilux Comfort for all performance about 30% , please try to going for Varilux Panamic if you would like to have total visual freedom.

Essilor Ovation and Essilor Natural is cheaper but the performance is lower more than 40% , and I am not recommended, because " Life is too short to limit your vision at all distance "

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## Dd

Thanks for the replies.

  Actually... the fella that told me that plastic is more scratch resistant than
  Poly seemed pretty experienced to me... until he said that.  ;)

  Nobody is pushing the Panamic that's for sure.  Are they a lot more money?
If I can get them to talk about a Varilux lens they only want to sell the comfort. Most places look at me like I'm a trouble maker for bringing up the varilux at all. :finger:

With my distance vision being not too bad I'm wondering about the possibility of some of those Online or Access lenses. My vision is not bad after about ten feet. Would I be a candidate for something like that? I read you can even drive with them. Aside from a lot of computer work I look at maps while driving a lot and this is where the readers are a real pain. This would knock me down to one pair of glasses instead of the two pairs of readers I carry now. They are like bifocals correct?

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## QDO1

> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Actually... the fella that told me that plastic is more scratch resistant than
> Poly seemed pretty experienced to me... until he said that. ;)


that is strictly true, poly is quite soft compared to CR39

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## Happylady

> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Actually... the fella that told me that plastic is more scratch resistant than
> Poly seemed pretty experienced to me... until he said that. ;)
> 
> Nobody is pushing the Panamic that's for sure. Are they a lot more money?
> If I can get them to talk about a Varilux lens they only want to sell the comfort. Most places look at me like I'm a trouble maker for bringing up the varilux at all. :finger:
> 
> With my distance vision being not too bad I'm wondering about the possibility of some of those Online or Access lenses. My vision is not bad after about ten feet. Would I be a candidate for something like that? I read you can even drive with them. Aside from a lot of computer work I look at maps while driving a lot and this is where the readers are a real pain. This would knock me down to one pair of glasses instead of the two pairs of readers I carry now. They are like bifocals correct?


Poly IS softer then regular plastic in its uncoated state. Poly is always scratch coated(sc) because of this. Standard plastic is usually has sc but you can buy it without it. How scratch resistant poly is depends on how good the sc and the ar is.

Crizal is an excellent ar and my choice for varilux lenses. There are other good ones though. However, there are many poor ar coatings out there.

Computer/desk lenses are not like bifocals and you shouldn't drive in them. They will make your far distance correction worse. How far you can see into the distance depends on the lens and your prescription but none of them can be used for driving. If you need a lens that you can wear while driving to look at maps you need a progressive.

I have a pair of Panamics and I like them a lot. Another progressive I like for people that need a decent intermediate and near area is the Sola One.

Most chain opticals only sell a couple different progressives. Some of them can get Panamic but not always. I have even had  several people come into my shop and tell me they were wearing the Comfort (that's what they were told they were buying) and they were wearing the Natural. 

If you go to independent opticals or private eye doctor's offices you will generally be able to buy the Panamic and many other progressives.

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## Dd

Okay, so then the reason people get polycarbonate lenses ,other than being more shatter resistant, is because they're lighter? I read poly is not as clear as plastic. Maybe I don't need Polycarbonate?

I need to find out more about the computer/desk lenses.    :Confused: 

What is the name of the Sola progressive lens?

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## Happylady

> Okay, so then the reason people get polycarbonate lenses ,other than being more shatter resistant, is because they're lighter? I read poly is not as clear as plastic. Maybe I don't need Polycarbonate?
> 
> I need to find out more about the computer/desk lenses. 
> 
> What is the name of the Sola progressive lens?


Can you post your prescription? That would be helpful. 

There are several Sola progressives, I like the Sola One.

Poly is both lighter and thinner then standard plastic but if your prescription is not strong it won't make much difference.

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## roxysmom

Hi--as a consumer, and not an optical professional-I found that at the chain retailers-I never could get a straight answer.  I had to go through my phone book and call around to find out who uses Varilux lenses...
Once I found opticians who use varilux, I found them to be very enthusiastic to work with me, and to share all of the info about their lenses that they could.  Nobody treated me like I had two heads, or was an idiot...I only got that from the "mall chain stores"  and could never get a straight answer from them about their products.
In the end however-I went with the Shamir Piccolo lens with Crizal alize AR coating, and I absolutely love it.  I work in Neonatal intensive care, so when looking into isolettes I find I am using the intermediate zone alot, and my vision is great, not only in the intermediate zone, but also in the distance, and in the reading.  And with the Alize coating-I don't get reflections off the plastic of the isolette to impede my vision which makes for a very comfortable work lens.  the piccolo is a short corridor lens.  Shamir also makes a regular lens-the Genesis.  I don't have any experience with that lens, as I wear a smaller fram with a B measurement of 30 mm.  anyway--Just wanted to give you my experience as a consumer.  You do need to call around to independant opticians and ask them if they carry varilux lenses.  those who truly work with essilor will be very helpful and enthusiastic to work with you.  Good Luck!!

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## Happylady

The Shamir lenses are very nice and they make a good computer lens also.

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## Cherry Optical

> It would be more accurate to say that the Panamic is one of the better designs.


It may be even more accurate to say that the new Varilux Physio is better than both.  According to a letter from Essilor Lenses 2 out of 3 wearers prefer Varilux Physio over either Varilux Panamic or Varilux Comfort.

My 2 cents.

Adam

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## Dd

> Can you post your prescription? That would be helpful. 
> 
> There are several Sola progressives, I like the Sola One.
> 
> Poly is both lighter and thinner then standard plastic but if your prescription is not strong it won't make much difference.


My prescription is in my first post.

  Any particular sola progressive or is there just one?

  My prescription is not strong so plastic may be the way to go.
  What about UV protection,  does plastic have it like Polycarbonate does?

  Why are you so Happy?   :)

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## Dd

> Hi--as a consumer, and not an optical professional-I found that at the chain retailers-I never could get a straight answer. I had to go through my phone book and call around to find out who uses Varilux lenses...
> Once I found opticians who use varilux, I found them to be very enthusiastic to work with me, and to share all of the info about their lenses that they could. Nobody treated me like I had two heads, or was an idiot...I only got that from the "mall chain stores" and could never get a straight answer from them about their products.
> In the end however-I went with the Shamir Piccolo lens with Crizal alize AR coating, and I absolutely love it. I work in Neonatal intensive care, so when looking into isolettes I find I am using the intermediate zone alot, and my vision is great, not only in the intermediate zone, but also in the distance, and in the reading. And with the Alize coating-I don't get reflections off the plastic of the isolette to impede my vision which makes for a very comfortable work lens. the piccolo is a short corridor lens. Shamir also makes a regular lens-the Genesis. I don't have any experience with that lens, as I wear a smaller fram with a B measurement of 30 mm. anyway--Just wanted to give you my experience as a consumer. You do need to call around to independant opticians and ask them if they carry varilux lenses. those who truly work with essilor will be very helpful and enthusiastic to work with you. Good Luck!!



It think you're right, it's mostly the chain retailers... but they have such good deals.  :)  There are a couple 50-60 % off sales on both frames and lenses.  Some have better guarantees as well.
  I would possibly take a shot at the ovation lens at one of them but they
  can't tell me what anti-glare coating they use. 
It's done at the factory.   :Rolleyes: 

 It's my first pair of glasses if I go through with this, so I'd like to get something I'm more likely to use. I can think of other uses for this money so I'm trying to increase the likelihood that they won't end up in a drawer.
  Thanks.

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## Dd

> It may be even more accurate to say that the new Varilux Physio is better than both. According to a letter from Essilor Lenses 2 out of 3 wearers prefer Varilux Physio over either Varilux Panamic or Varilux Comfort.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Adam


Oh... there ya go throwing in another option.    :hammer:

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## Cherry Optical

> Okay, so then the reason people get polycarbonate lenses ,other than being more shatter resistant, is because they're lighter?


If you are looking for the lightest lens, then you are looking for Trivex.  Hoya makes a great Trivex product called Phoenix and Younger makes an excellent product called Trilogy.  Single Vision, Single Vision Trans Gray/Brown, Bifocals, Bifocal Transitions Gray, Trifocal 7x28, along with a bevy of progressive lenses such as the Hoya Summit ECP and CD, Hoya GP Wide and Younger Image.

Hoya Super HiVision is also an excellent Super Hydrophobic AR coating that offers excellent scratch resistance.

O yeah, BTW, Trivex meets the highest impact resistance standards set be the US FDA.

Adam

Adam

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## roxysmom

Hi Dd--Ok--I am thinking I went to the same chain store as you--with the 50% off deal--is all I can say is they stand behind their guarantee and will refund your money-100%...after I got my refund-i went to the independant dealer, and that is where I found my Shamir lenses which I love, love, LOVE!!
With the Chain store glasses-they first got my astigmatism correction wrong in my left eye-so that was 3 redos right there before I noticed that the computer slip read 068 rather than 080.  I asked the guy about it and he said no--it's supposed to be 068-we called your doctor and double checked-when in fact-they had not double checked-I called my doctor myself to find out--so they lied to me, then tried to tell me that it was still within  "tolerance".  It definitely was not in tolerance-I had alot of eye pain and headache.  then after talking to my doctor-I went back and insisted they redo the lenses with the correct prescription-well by now they weren't being real nice to me-but I didn't care.After having them redone yet again-at least I was told they had been redone--I still did not have clear vision and still alot of eye pain.  At that point-I asked for my money back which they gave me.  
So--I don't think the savings was worth it.  It caused alot of unnecessary trips back and forth, and 3 1/2 weeks of pain trying to wear those glasses.
At the independant optician I went with--I used a pair of frames that I already had, and my lenses were $450.00.  My optician was more than willing to use my old frames--he said they were in great shape, and he felt confident having me use them.  He never pressured me to purchase frames from his store--which were 400-500 dollars--way out of my budget.  In fact, he told me if I wanted new frames-I could purchase them anywhere-online, ebay, another store, and then bring them in and order my lenses from him.
So--to sum it all up--my lenses were 450.00.  From the chain dealer-my complete pair of glasses had cost me $362.00 after the 50% off deal.  So with out the 50% off they would have been $724.00-and I still would not have been able to wear them.  
Whatever brand of lenses you decide on-I think you will be so much happier with premium lenses, and a good optician will do what mine did regarding the frame.  they will also be able to answer all of your questions, and will not mind you asking all sorts of questions.  They will also give you straight answers and will be knowledgeable about the brand of lenses they sell.
I also want to again recommend the Crizal alize AR coating.  I have never been so happy with a pair of glasses!
Good luck with whatever you decide!!

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## Cherry Optical

> Shamir Piccolo lens with Crizal alize AR coating, and I absolutely love it.


As a distributor of Crizal and Crizal Alize' I am almost positive that this is not possable.  I will check after I post, but I do not remember seeing the Shamir Office as an approved Crizal Alize' lens.  Perhaps there is a rogue lab out there, or someone sold you a name.  If they are selling you AR on that name. I can guarentee you they are not selling over 40% AR.  Not that Crizal Alize' is a bad name, but the presentation of AR needs to be quick, conciese, and without words that a patient may have never heard.  Glare/no glare, reflection/no reflection, easier night driving/harder night driving, easy to clean/hard to clean... LoL

Branding is for manufacturers and laboratories.  It is up to the Eye Care Professional to dispense the eyeglass that will best fit the patient's lifestyle and visual needs. 

Adam

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## Cherry Optical

> Oh... there ya go throwing in another option.    :hammer:


Sorry. I can only go on what the marketing department claims. Apparently there is no agreed upon way to test the 'quality' of a PAL....? Personally, I just look at what gets returned and what doesn't. That usually is the best judge. 

The quality of all nondisposable products is directly related to the need or lack of need for maitence and/or repair.


Adam

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## roxysmom

hey Adam--I have the Shamir Piccolo lens--not the Office.  It is a great coating--makes my job easier as I am a Neonatal Intensive care nurse.  There is less reflection off the monitors and isolettes.  and yes--it makes for much easier night driving.


> As a distributor of Crizal and Crizal Alize' I am almost positive that this is not possable. I will check after I post, but I do not remember seeing the Shamir Office as an approved Crizal Alize' lens. Perhaps there is a rogue lab out there, or someone sold you a name. If they are selling you AR on that name. I can guarentee you they are not selling over 40% AR. Not that Crizal Alize' is a bad name, but the presentation of AR needs to be quick, conciese, and without words that a patient may have never heard. Glare/no glare, reflection/no reflection, easier night driving/harder night driving, easy to clean/hard to clean... LoL
> 
> Branding is for manufacturers and laboratories. It is up to the Eye Care Professional to dispense the eyeglass that will best fit the patient's lifestyle and visual needs. 
> 
> Adam

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## Happylady

> My prescription is in my first post.
> 
> Any particular sola progressive or is there just one?
> 
> My prescription is not strong so plastic may be the way to go.
> What about UV protection, does plastic have it like Polycarbonate does?
> 
> Why are you so Happy? :)


Sola One is the name of the progressive. Sola One....that is the name.

Your prescription will be fine in standard plastic. It blocks over 90% of uv but not as much as poly does.

If a place is selling lenses for 50% off all the time you gotta wonder if they are marking up their lenses to put them on sale. How many do they really sell at the "full price". 

Lenscrafter will refund your money if you aren't happy, but their warranty if your glasses break or scratch isn't so great. They charge you a copay for warranties.

I work for an independent optomometrist. Our progressives start at $195.00 and Varilux Panamic is less then $250.00 We give a free warranty on them. We sell lots of frames for under $130.00 and all our frames have a free one year warranty. I think these prices are in line with most chains like Eyemasters and Lenscrafters. Not all independents are super expensive.

I am happy cause I have a great life! :D

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## roxysmom

> Sola One is the name of the progressive. Sola One....that is the name.
> 
> Your prescription will be fine in standard plastic. It blocks over 90% of uv but not as much as poly does.
> 
> If a place is selling lenses for 50% off all the time you gotta wonder if they are marking up their lenses to put them on sale. How many do they really sell at the "full price". 
> 
> Lenscrafter will refund your money if you aren't happy, but their warranty if your glasses break or scratch isn't so great. They charge you a copay for warranties.
> 
> I work for an independent optomometrist. Our progressives start at $195.00 and Varilux Panamic is less then $250.00 We give a free warranty on them. We sell lots of frames for under $130.00 and all our frames have a free one year warranty. I think these prices are in line with most chains like Eyemasters and Lenscrafters. Not all independents are super expensive.
> ...


I agree with you about the 50% off and the mark up of the lenses.  I will always recommend independant optometrist to my friends and co workers from now on.  I'm not sure what my lenses started at, but with the crizal alize and also transitions, my final cost was 450.00 which I did not think was bad at all.  Especially for the fact that I can wear them with out any problems, and they spend more time on my face than they do in a drawer:)

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## QDO1

> Sorry. I can only go on what the marketing department claims.


in that case, every lens on the market is the best lens then

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## Cherry Optical

> hey Adam--I have the Shamir Piccolo lens--not the Office. It is a great coating--makes my job easier as I am a Neonatal Intensive care nurse. There is less reflection off the monitors and isolettes. and yes--it makes for much easier night driving.


My bad.  Shamir Piccolo... either way neither of them are available with Crizal Alize' AR coating.  Check it out for yourself:  http://www.crizalpro.com/Crizal_Availability_2005.pdf

I often wonder if the branding of AR in the Indepedent clinics helps or hurts AR percentage sales?

Adam

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## Jerry Thornhill

Adam,
Most Shamir Products are available with Crizal SAR Coatings. Piccolo Hard Resin, Transitions and Polycarbonate are available.

Availability Chart for Laboratories, Dated November 29, 2005

Jerry

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## Cherry Optical

> Adam,
> Most Shamir Products are available with Crizal SAR Coatings. Piccolo Hard Resin, Transitions and Polycarbonate are available.
> 
> Availability Chart for Laboratories, Dated November 29, 2005
> 
> Jerry


Jerry,

Help me out, what is Crizal SAR Coatings?  Googled it and found nothing.. I'll keep looking, but please help.  I am always looking to learn about new products.

Adam

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## spartus

Standard Anti-Reflective? Kind of like calling Zeiss' Super ET "SET", which I see on lab invoices from time to time.

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## suwit

if you worry about weigh you have to think about abbe on poly lens
compare between weigh and abbe , i choose abbe first

then the best choise is
Varilux Panamic Orma  knife edging (dimeter depend to frame side)

or
Rodenstock Impression ILT Xs 
this lens is so good with instant adaptation will help you to get use quicker
but you must check all correct FFA , CVD befor put it on
no another lens in the world have far vision as wide as this lens

:):):)

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## Dd

> If you are looking for the lightest lens, then you are looking for Trivex. Hoya makes a great Trivex product called Phoenix and Younger makes an excellent product called Trilogy. Single Vision, Single Vision Trans Gray/Brown, Bifocals, Bifocal Transitions Gray, Trifocal 7x28, along with a bevy of progressive lenses such as the Hoya Summit ECP and CD, Hoya GP Wide and Younger Image.
> 
> Hoya Super HiVision is also an excellent Super Hydrophobic AR coating that offers excellent scratch resistance.
> 
> O yeah, BTW, Trivex meets the highest impact resistance standards set be the US FDA.
> 
> Adam
> 
> Adam



I'll ask about this,  thanks.

----------


## Dd

> Hi Dd--Ok--I am thinking I went to the same chain store as you--with the 50% off deal--is all I can say is they stand behind their guarantee and will refund your money-100%...after I got my refund-i went to the independant dealer, and that is where I found my Shamir lenses which I love, love, LOVE!!
> With the Chain store glasses-they first got my astigmatism correction wrong in my left eye-so that was 3 redos right there before I noticed that the computer slip read 068 rather than 080. I asked the guy about it and he said no--it's supposed to be 068-we called your doctor and double checked-when in fact-they had not double checked-I called my doctor myself to find out--so they lied to me, then tried to tell me that it was still within "tolerance". It definitely was not in tolerance-I had alot of eye pain and headache. then after talking to my doctor-I went back and insisted they redo the lenses with the correct prescription-well by now they weren't being real nice to me-but I didn't care.After having them redone yet again-at least I was told they had been redone--I still did not have clear vision and still alot of eye pain. At that point-I asked for my money back which they gave me. 
> So--I don't think the savings was worth it. It caused alot of unnecessary trips back and forth, and 3 1/2 weeks of pain trying to wear those glasses.
> At the independant optician I went with--I used a pair of frames that I already had, and my lenses were $450.00. My optician was more than willing to use my old frames--he said they were in great shape, and he felt confident having me use them. He never pressured me to purchase frames from his store--which were 400-500 dollars--way out of my budget. In fact, he told me if I wanted new frames-I could purchase them anywhere-online, ebay, another store, and then bring them in and order my lenses from him.
> So--to sum it all up--my lenses were 450.00. From the chain dealer-my complete pair of glasses had cost me $362.00 after the 50% off deal. So with out the 50% off they would have been $724.00-and I still would not have been able to wear them. 
> Whatever brand of lenses you decide on-I think you will be so much happier with premium lenses, and a good optician will do what mine did regarding the frame. they will also be able to answer all of your questions, and will not mind you asking all sorts of questions. They will also give you straight answers and will be knowledgeable about the brand of lenses they sell.
> I also want to again recommend the Crizal alize AR coating.  I have never been so happy with a pair of glasses!
> Good luck with whatever you decide!!


Wow... a hellish nightmare to be sure, as Hunter S. Thompson would say.  :Eek: 
  The 50% sale is over now so...
  I think what I'm going to do now is try and find someone that I'm comfortable with and stay away from the chains altogether.
  I might have the eye exam done again by whoever I end up choosing for the glasses... just to eliminate a variable. I think there are some reasonably priced independent optician's out there,  I may have to make a few more calls to find them.  I'll try to get the Crizal alize too.
  Thanks.

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## Dd

> Sola One is the name of the progressive. Sola One....that is the name.
> 
> Your prescription will be fine in standard plastic. It blocks over 90% of uv but not as much as poly does.
> 
> If a place is selling lenses for 50% off all the time you gotta wonder if they are marking up their lenses to put them on sale. How many do they really sell at the "full price". 
> 
> Lenscrafter will refund your money if you aren't happy, but their warranty if your glasses break or scratch isn't so great. They charge you a copay for warranties.
> 
> I work for an independent optomometrist. Our progressives start at $195.00 and Varilux Panamic is less then $250.00 We give a free warranty on them. We sell lots of frames for under $130.00 and all our frames have a free one year warranty. I think these prices are in line with most chains like Eyemasters and Lenscrafters. Not all independents are super expensive.
> ...


Well, I'm sure they were marked up at 320 for ovation poly lenses but 160 and half off all frames is still about the least expensive I've found.
  Soon as they told me the anti-glare coating is put on at the factory and they don't know what kind it is I became cautious though.

  The guy at lenscrafters (50% off lenses only at that time) totally gave me the wrong info.  He told me they use Sola and the next time I called it was
  something else. I'm not asking esoteric questions here... just who makes their lenses.  :)

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## Jubilee

LensCrafters uses several different brands. 

The current A/R of choice is their Scotchguard brand. They carry a few single vision coated lens in stock, but all multifocals are coated at an independent specialty lab. They are an Essilor product, so the coating is only available those products, Ovation or Varilux in Poly or 1.67 plastic. It is similar to the Crizal Alize, but doesn't carry the same warranty. 

The other option is their regular A/R. It can be applied to any material. It is applied at an Essilor lab as well. 

Other progressive manufacturers they carry include, Vision Ease and Sola. 

Cassandra

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## Jerry Thornhill

Adam,

Okay Crizal coating or Crizal Alize either way these coatings are available on Shamir Products.

Jerry

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## Cherry Optical

> LensCrafters 
> 
> It is applied at an Essilor lab as well.


What I wouldn't give for a few invoices that show this... :)

Adam

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## Cherry Optical

> Adam,
> 
> Okay Crizal coating or Crizal Alize either way these coatings are available on Shamir Products.
> 
> Jerry


Jerry,

I seriously doubt this claim.  I don't know if perhaps Pete Hanlin is reading this thread and could fill us in, but I am almost positive this is not the case.  One reason I am so confident that you can not get Crizal and/or Crizal Alize on Shamir products is because if you could, I would be ordering it.  One of the major problems we have with many PALs is not the quality of the design, but rather the quality of the coating that can be applied to it.  

We have tried many custom coatings (non stock lenses) and the only ones that seem to consistantly hold up in WI are Teflon, HiVision, Super HiVision, Crizal, and Crizal Alize'.  I have been told that I am way off many times and that Coating ABC is just as good, but the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the remakes/defects.

Perhaps people in WI bathe their lenses in gasoline, Jagermeister, and Miller High Life... or perhaps I am too honest about remakes.  

Adam

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## Jubilee

> What I wouldn't give for a few invoices that show this... :)
> 
> Adam


Well.. I don't want to have to deal with LC's legal department...

When I worked for them, it didn't seem to be a big deal to tell patients who made their coating.. especially when those who would ask for Crizal would be told that our regular coating was a generic version made by the same manufacturer.. and 2) if you wanted actual Crizal it would cost more and take longer since we would have to order it from a different outside lab.

Cassandra

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## roxysmom

Hi adam--My optician showed me their latest availability chart from November of this year, and according to that chart he is able to order his shamir lenses with crizal coatings.  I highly doubt that he had that chart "made up" to lie to his customers, just as I highly doubt that Jerry is lying.  why would either person do that?  Perhaps you need to find a new lab if you wish to have crizal coatings on Shamir products???


> Jerry,
> 
> I seriously doubt this claim. I don't know if perhaps Pete Hanlin is reading this thread and could fill us in, but I am almost positive this is not the case. One reason I am so confident that you can not get Crizal and/or Crizal Alize on Shamir products is because if you could, I would be ordering it. One of the major problems we have with many PALs is not the quality of the design, but rather the quality of the coating that can be applied to it. 
> 
> We have tried many custom coatings (non stock lenses) and the only ones that seem to consistantly hold up in WI are Teflon, HiVision, Super HiVision, Crizal, and Crizal Alize'. I have been told that I am way off many times and that Coating ABC is just as good, but the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the remakes/defects.
> 
> Perhaps people in WI bathe their lenses in gasoline, Jagermeister, and Miller High Life... or perhaps I am too honest about remakes. 
> 
> Adam

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## Robert Martellaro

Adam _is_ the lab! 

In addition to Crizal/Alize, I have been getting the Shamir product with Zeiss's Advantage AR, their equivalent of Essilor's Alize AR, and because the product is available without a factory hard coat, I would think that any of the newer "slick coated" AR formulations will be compatible with the Shamir line of lenses.

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## Cherry Optical

> Adam _is_ the lab! 
> 
> In addition to Crizal/Alize, I have been getting the Shamir product with Zeiss's Advantage AR, their equivalent of Essilor's Alize AR, and because the product is available without a factory hard coat, I would think that any of the newer "slick coated" AR formulations will be compatible with the Shamir line of lenses.


LoL.  Been awhile since I have been called 'the man', so being called 'the lab' will just have to do.

Now this is getting a bit confussing to me. Now I have two people telling me that they can get Alize' on Shamir lenses. I understand you both are ORDERING Alize', but I highly doubt you are actually getting it. Lenses actually have to be approved to recieve Crizal and Crizal Alize' AR coating. So the only way you could get getting Alize' on a Shamir is if you are working with an Indepedent lab that is putting the coating on lenses that Essilor does not have on their approved list, hence the "rogue" commment early in this thread.

You may order one thing and be getting another... like Robert mentioned about the Carat Advantage. The lab you are working with might be looking at your order and substituting the best alternative? I am sticking to my guns, untill you can produce some evidence. Here it is again.... http://www.crizalpro.com/Crizal_Availability_2005.pdf
another thing to consider is that this chart is actually for consumers... So again.. I highly doubt any Shamir lens with Alize'... 

Adam

I really need help.

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## spartus

I can't confirm this one way or the other, but I might point out that Adam, the Crizal availability PDF you linked to is from 4/05, and roxysmom is talking about an availability chart from this November. The one thing I can confirm is that labs typically have the new chart (labeled as a chart for labs) about a month before the opticians get theirs (labeled as a chart for opticians), so Essilor may just be (very) slow in getting you the new one, or updating their website.

And if there's a November chart out there that my lab rep hasn't yet gotten to me, perhaps I should break off a call....

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## Cherry Optical

> And if there's a November chart out there that my lab rep hasn't yet gotten to me, perhaps I should break off a call....


I broke off two calls to Essilor Lens reps and one PM to Pete Hanlin and did not get a definiative answer from any of them.  I also broke off a call to my Crizal Processing Center and they told me... NO.  Just so that everyone knows, I am not fighting this.  I am simply saying that I need to know so that I can stop putting Crap AR on my Shamir lenses.. Crap compared to Alize that is.

Adam

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## Sandy

> I'm looking at possibly getting my first pair of glasses after using readers for the last five years. I finally had my eyes checked and was told I need a progressive no-line lens. I have to say that I'm amazed at the lack of professionalism that I've encountered so far.


Join the club.





> Many outfits look at you like you have two heads if you ask what brand lens they are selling you
> or what kind of anti-glare coating. Sure... I don't care... it's only money. :hammer:
> So much misinformation... but I guess this is true in everything nowadays.
> Thank goodness I've found this forum!


Exactly how I felt.



 [QUOTE=Dd]At the very least I might ignore the 50% off sales and read this forum for a few months before making a decision. I might just stick with the two pairs of readers I've been carrying... not sure. /]quote]

Wise.

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## Sandy

> I broke off two calls to Essilor Lens reps and one PM to Pete Hanlin and did not get a definiative answer from any of them. I also broke off a call to my Crizal Processing Center and they told me... NO. Just so that everyone knows, I am not fighting this. I am simply saying that I need to know so that I can stop putting Crap AR on my Shamir lenses.. Crap compared to Alize that is.
> 
> Adam


Know that Crizal doesn't work well for all lens and variluz doesn't allow to put on all lens. Also Zeiss, Zeis Gradual is good.

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## Sandy

> LoL. Been awhile since I have been called 'the man', so being called 'the lab' will just have to do.
> 
> Now this is getting a bit confussing to me. Now I have two people telling me that they can get Alize' on Shamir lenses. I understand you both are ORDERING Alize', but I highly doubt you are actually getting it.


I agree. I think that eployees there just say things like that ( to me) to get you feel sstisfied.  That's when I made up my mind not to use that place at all. I think Zeiss Advantage goes with Shamir Office.





> Lenses actually have to be approved to recieve Crizal and Crizal Alize' AR coating. So the only way you could get getting Alize' on a Shamir is if you are working with an Indepedent lab that is putting the coating on lenses that Essilor does not have on their approved list, hence the "rogue" commment early in this thread.
> 
> You may order one thing and be getting another... like Robert mentioned about the Carat Advantage. The lab you are working with might be looking at your order and substituting the best alternative? I am sticking to my guns, untill you can produce some evidence. Here it is again.... http://www.crizalpro.com/Crizal_Availability_2005.pdf
> another thing to consider is that this chart is actually for consumers... So again.. I highly doubt any Shamir lens with Alize'...


I don't highly doubt that; I know that Shamir Office with Crizel is a lie. 


I really need help.[/QUOTE]

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## Sandy

> LensCrafters uses several different brands. 
> 
> The current A/R of choice is their Scotchguard brand. They carry a few single vision coated lens in stock, but all multifocals are coated at an independent specialty lab. They are an Essilor product, so the coating is only available those products, Ovation or Varilux in Poly or 1.67 plastic. It is similar to the Crizal Alize, but doesn't carry the same warranty.


Isn't Ovation polycarbonate lens?

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## spartus

> I broke off two calls to Essilor Lens reps and one PM to Pete Hanlin and did not get a definiative answer from any of them.  I also broke off a call to my Crizal Processing Center and they told me... NO.  Just so that everyone knows, I am not fighting this.  I am simply saying that I need to know so that I can stop putting Crap AR on my Shamir lenses.. Crap compared to Alize that is.
> 
> Adam


My lab's sending me a new Crizal/Alize chart, dated November 29. I should have it tomorrow. I asked, and the rep on the phone said Shamir wasn't listed.

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## roxysmom

Well--then now I wonder what AR coating is on my lenses??  I know it is VERY easy to clean, and it does seem like they do not get smudged and dirty as fast as whatever I have had before.  I definitely notice the difference when it comes to cleaning the lenses.  I am going to ask my optician about this.  I just don't know why they would tell me it is Alize if it isn't.  Could the lab be putting alize on Shamir lenses if it isn't approved for them?

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## Cherry Optical

> Well--then now I wonder what AR coating is on my lenses?? I know it is VERY easy to clean, and it does seem like they do not get smudged and dirty as fast as whatever I have had before. I definitely notice the difference when it comes to cleaning the lenses. I am going to ask my optician about this. I just don't know why they would tell me it is Alize if it isn't. Could the lab be putting alize on Shamir lenses if it isn't approved for them?


That is what I am wondering.  Again, some opticians get almost brainwashed by brand names, especially those doing business soley with manufacture owned laboratories.  I wonder if this has something to do with the 'lower than should be' AR penetration at Indepedent eye clinics?  If they took the Wal-Mart approach and added the treatment into all of their lens costs, perhaps they would sell more?  Instead of trying to explain to patients how to pronouce Crizal and Crizal Alize', they should focus on explaining the benefits and features of AR coatings.  Personally I have not done a great deal of dispensing.  I have helped out clinics that were short handed a dozen times or so.  Never have I used the name Crizal or Crizal Alize'... but amazingly I am able to dispense AR coated lenses the vast majority of time by simply explaining the benefits.   Unless the patient is asking for it by name, they really don't give a rip about the name.

Perhaps they subed Carat Advantage on the Shamir lenses, which is also very easy to clean.  There is a whole family of treatments called super hydrophobic, all of wich have contact angles (ease of cleaning) above 110 degrees.  

If spartus has the technology, I would love to have a copy of what he recieves.

Adam

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## roxysmom

I agree Adam--I don't need to be hung up on the name-what matters is that whatever the coating is-I am very happy with it, so I guess I don't care what brand it is, as long as it holds up well.  When I ordered my lenses, and my optician asked about AR coating-I initially said no, because I haven't been happy in the past with AR coatings, and how difficult they were to clean; that's when he mentioned Crizal Alize specifically, and assured me that I would love it...so-now I don't know what I have, but I am happy with it.

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## CME4SPECS

I have the November 1,2005 Eyecare Professionals availability chart in my hand, Shamir is NOT on it.

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## spartus

> If spartus has the technology, I would love to have a copy of what he recieves.
> 
> Adam



Didn't show up in today's courier box. I'll ask the lab to fax it to me today and get a copy to you shortly.

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## spartus

They faxed, but the quality is *terrible*. However, it is clean enough to read that Shamir Genesis and Piccolo are definitely on there, and Office is in that semi-grayed-out box that means it's available, but only through someone or other special. They're sending me a clean copy, which I should have Monday. If I, unlike today, remember to bring the fax home, I'll try to make my scanner work again so you can at least see it in black-and-white, or in this fax's particular case, grayscale.

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## Jerry Thornhill

Spartus and Adam,

Sorry that I haven't been on the board lately as my furniture arrived a little early from California and I have been scrambling.

I will be happy to email you the information you need.

Jerry

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## Cherry Optical

> They faxed, but the quality is *terrible*. However, it is clean enough to read that Shamir Genesis and Piccolo are definitely on there, and Office is in that semi-grayed-out box that means it's available, but only through someone or other special. They're sending me a clean copy, which I should have Monday. If I, unlike today, remember to bring the fax home, I'll try to make my scanner work again so you can at least see it in black-and-white, or in this fax's particular case, grayscale.


Thank you for the work!  This will make it easier for us to promote these lenses as now we will be able to get a high quality coating on them.  

Adam

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## Chris Ryser

t


> *I am: OD + 1.00 - 025 x 120*
> *OS + 1.00 - 025 x 180*
> *Add + 1.50*


Actually your prescription is so simple and straight forward youi can go to any optician and ask for the least expensive lens in progresives. It does not matter whatever you take.................they are all the same.

I will be stoned for making this statement by all of tehm.

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## Sandy

> I have never been so happy with a pair of glasses!
> Good luck with whatever you decide!!


Where is your optician located?  I need a place like that. 

If you don't want to write it here, you can send private message to me via optiborad or email me at amanda992005@yahoo.com but inform me that you send email there since I don't usually check email there and use it for misc purposes.

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## Sandy

> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Actually... the fella that told me that plastic is more scratch resistant than
> Poly seemed pretty experienced to me... until he said that. ;)
> 
> Nobody is pushing the Panamic that's for sure. Are they a lot more money?
> If I can get them to talk about a Varilux lens they only want to sell the comfort. Most places look at me like I'm a trouble maker for bringing up the varilux at all. :finger:


Guess what? I was treated the same way when I brought up Panamic. One place is so against varilux it's like personal vandetta.

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## Sandy

> As a distributor of Crizal and Crizal Alize' I am almost positive that this is not possable. I will check after I post, but I do not remember seeing the Shamir Office as an approved Crizal Alize' lens.


I was about to say that form what I read online about approved Crizal and Crizal Alezi, Shamir products were not included. 




> Perhaps there is a rogue lab out there, or someone sold you a name.


This makes me wonder how we could ever know for sure that the AR they said they put is what they said they would. Can we take the lens to another place and ask to check it?

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## Sandy

> I broke off two calls to Essilor Lens reps and one PM to Pete Hanlin and did not get a definiative answer from any of them. I also broke off a call to my Crizal Processing Center and they told me... NO. Just so that everyone knows, I am not fighting this. I am simply saying that I need to know so that I can stop putting Crap AR on my Shamir lenses.. Crap compared to Alize that is.
> 
> Adam


Are you saying that Zeiss Advantage is not as good as Alize?

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## QDO1

what qualities do you value in a coating?

durabilitylack of reflection%hardnesswater reppelanceease of cleaningability to withstand changes in temparaturecolour of residual hue

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## Dd

[QUOTE=Sandy]Join the club.




Exactly how I felt.






> At the very least I might ignore the 50% off sales and read this forum for a few months before making a decision. I might just stick with the two pairs of readers I've been carrying... not sure. /]quote]
> 
> Wise.



It's not easy, the chains still have those sales going big time.
  I thought I had done well not yielding to temptation and then eye masters extended their 50% off sale through the next couple weekends!!

----------


## Dd

> t
> 
> Actually your prescription is so simple and straight forward youi can go to any optician and ask for the least expensive lens in progresives. It does not matter whatever you take.................they are all the same.
> 
> I will be stoned for making this statement by all of tehm.


Really?   :Confused: 
  So there would be no advantage to the Panamic over the Ovation??
  Why?

  Any stone chuckers disagree with this?

----------


## Dd

> Guess what? I was treated the same way when I brought up Panamic. One place is so against varilux it's like personal vandetta.




  I've been getting a "What's with the questions? Just buy some dang glasses already." attitude.  But isn't that their job?  I really don't need much help to look at frames.  lol. I've had people help me who have never heard of Crizal.
  Using the word Help loosely here...

----------


## Dd

> LensCrafters uses several different brands. 
> 
> The current A/R of choice is their Scotchguard brand. They carry a few single vision coated lens in stock, but all multifocals are coated at an independent specialty lab. They are an Essilor product, so the coating is only available those products, Ovation or Varilux in Poly or 1.67 plastic. It is similar to the Crizal Alize, but doesn't carry the same warranty. 
> 
> The other option is their regular A/R. It can be applied to any material. It is applied at an Essilor lab as well. 
> 
> Other progressive manufacturers they carry include, Vision Ease and Sola. 
> 
> Cassandra


I didn't like the way they had the Packages set up.
  It was like you couldn't get what you wanted w/o getting something you didn't need... don't remember exactly.
Seems like they are really pushing the scotchguard.  I was turned off by the misinformation though. 
  The guy I talked to couldn't even tell me when the sale ended...  I found out later it ended that day.
 I did like their frames however.

----------


## Cherry Optical

> Are you saying that Zeiss Advantage is not as good as Alize?


My limited experience with Zeiss Carat Advantage leads me to believe that Crizal Alize' is a superior AR coating.  Our scratch returns on Carat Advantage were so high that we discontinued use of the product.  That is just my personal experience with the product.  Hopefully your experience has been better.

Adam

----------


## spartus

I got the chart today. I was going to scan it, but my scanner doesn't seem to want to cooperate. So I'll sum it up:

Genesis - CR39 Clear/Trans Gray, 1.67 Clear/Trans Gray, 1.60.Piccolo - CR39 Clear/Trans Gray, Poly clear only.Office - CR39 Only.

Additionally, it shows Genesis & Piccolo CR39 clear only available as "Full Lens Order only", and all the rest as a "Full Lens Order and Custom Coating"

Interestingly--and I don't know if this is news or not--it shows Gradal Top CR39 Clear in the "Custom Coating Only" from your Essilor Processing center. Wow, and Round 22 made the list, too.

----------


## roxysmom

> I got the chart today. I was going to scan it, but my scanner doesn't seem to want to cooperate. So I'll sum it up:
> Genesis - CR39 Clear/Trans Gray, 1.67 Clear/Trans Gray, 1.60.Piccolo - CR39 Clear/Trans Gray, Poly clear only.Office - CR39 Only.
> Additionally, it shows Genesis & Piccolo CR39 clear only available as "Full Lens Order only", and all the rest as a "Full Lens Order and Custom Coating"
> 
> Interestingly--and I don't know if this is news or not--it shows Gradal Top CR39 Clear in the "Custom Coating Only" from your Essilor Processing center. Wow, and Round 22 made the list, too.


Does this mean it is not available in transitions brown with Crizal alize?

----------


## spartus

No brown at all, Gray only. Sorry.

----------


## Cherry Optical

> I got the chart today. I was going to scan it, but my scanner doesn't seem to want to cooperate. So I'll sum it up:
> Genesis - CR39 Clear/Trans Gray, 1.67 Clear/Trans Gray, 1.60.Piccolo - CR39 Clear/Trans Gray, Poly clear only.Office - CR39 Only.
> Additionally, it shows Genesis & Piccolo CR39 clear only available as "Full Lens Order only", and all the rest as a "Full Lens Order and Custom Coating"
> 
> Interestingly--and I don't know if this is news or not--it shows Gradal Top CR39 Clear in the "Custom Coating Only" from your Essilor Processing center. Wow, and Round 22 made the list, too.


Thank you very much!  Sent my first Piccolol Trans Gray Alize order today!

Hopefully they fill it.

Adam

----------

