# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Essilor's new Pal exclusive to Vision Source

## Lee H

Anyone have any information on the new lens Essilor is offering _exclusively_ to Vision Source members beginning June 1st?

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## MarcE

I hear it's an Ovation :Rolleyes:  .  Anyway, that's the rumor that I am starting.

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## icare

I'm curious.  Is Vision Source a third party?  If it is, my Varilux allegiance is going to wane.

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## FullCircle

> I hear it's an Ovation . Anyway, that's the rumor that I am starting.


LOL

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## C-10

I heard it is supernoline with Digital back side surfacing

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## ADO

My sources say:

The will call their new lenses "Tru Clear" and Tru Clear HD". These are the same lenses as the Physio and Physio 360. They will be available only through Essilor labs. 
They are also going to have private labled Crizal and Crizal Alize. They will be called "Viso" and "Viso-XC" 

I don't see this as a real big deal as Essilor has been making two versions of the same progressive design for years. One they market to private and one they market to commercial. Essilor and Vision Source simply made a deal. For Vision Source they get a good, but not great, price. For Essilor they get more of the Vision Source business going to the Essilor owned labs.

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## OptiBird

So the same lenses already available to you but now renamed to make it a VS lens...And the VS name is not even included

Brilliant! 

Hey, I just put a logo sticker on a physio box-I now have my own line too...

Essilor really goes above and beyond to make you feel all warm & cozy... :Cool:

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## Lee H

I hear this new lens has "VS" engravings.....    ?????

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## MarcE

> My sources say:
> 
> The will call their new lenses "Tru Clear" and Tru Clear HD". These are the same lenses as the Physio and Physio 360. They will be available only through Essilor labs. 
> They are also going to have private labled Crizal and Crizal Alize. They will be called "Viso" and "Viso-XC"


Now Vision source can sell the same high quality that Wal-mart sells.*

* For background information search threads on Wal-Mart and Freeform progressives

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## For-Life

Question, what would you prefer.  A supplier selling product in those places under the same name or under a different name?

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## Lee H

I would guess it would be better if a supplier sold to these places under a _different_ name. Having said that, if the product is sold at a _deep_ discount to a certain segment or group, then I believe that would be a bigger threat. I would be curious to hear others' take on this. 

Nevertheless, it seems like _smart_ marketing on the supplier's part. If I were a non-member, however, I am not so sure I would care to pay a premium for the same product while my competition is paying alot less. Especially if I had been supporting that same supplier for many years. I would feel as though I were helping to subsidize these special deals....

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## karen

> if the product is sold at a _deep_ discount to a certain segment or group, then I believe that would be a bigger threat. I would be curious to hear others' take on this.


Well, as an independent lab who cannot compete with the deep discounts VS Docs get (although for 4% of their gross-or whatever-it had better be a good discount :hammer: ) this is another in a long line of frustrations for me.  Although to defend Essilor (yes I said that) they were trying to hold onto these guys who would likely jump to whichever manufacturer would give them the best deal.  We even called VS to see if we could be a participating lab and they said no thanks.....

I can say that it does chap my hide that I was having some success with a few Docs who were getting Varilux from me because their lab of choice was not authorized and this will likely kill that. :shiner: ? Ain't the optical business grand??

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## Andrew Weiss

Considering that ELOA labs give VS doctors a big discount as well as an additional rebate, the "private label" progressives and A/R don't strike me as a major change . . .

What concerns me is the subtle pressure that a private label product can create: to give the patient that lower-cost progressive even though one that costs us more may be better suited to the patient's Rx and needs.

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## Andrew Weiss

My boss the VS doc told me that the word amongst Vision Source ODs is this:

Someone at Essilor told one of the VS docs that the lenses combine features of the Physio/Physio 360 and the Definity.  Also that some senior management at Essilor opposed letting this design go to private label (wanted to hold it in-house) but lost.

So what does this mean?  I really won't know until I see the thing. It's due to be available June 1.  My fear: it's a b******ized design that flopped.  

We'll see.

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## Florida Optician

Our reps answer - this lens is a "hybrid" of Essilor PAL technologies and not one particular lens design. Now how is that for the best marketing speak ever?
Karen- we feel your pain.

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## Golfnorth

> Our reps answer - this lens is a "hybrid" of Essilor PAL technologies and not one particular lens design. Now how is that for the best marketing speak ever?
> Karen- we feel your pain.


You guys should take some action and wane off Essilor's products if you don't like their business practices. They are not the only game in town although they would like to think so. I was at a conference recently and when asked by an Essilor lab rep why I wasn't giving them more business I told them that by me not giving them more business they could spend more time selling lenses to Walmart.

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## MarcE

> My boss the VS doc told me that the word amongst Vision Source ODs is this:
> 
> Someone at Essilor told one of the VS docs that the lenses combine features of the Physio/Physio 360 and the Definity. Also that some senior management at Essilor opposed letting this design go to private label (wanted to hold it in-house) but lost.
> 
> So what does this mean? I really won't know until I see the thing. It's due to be available June 1. My fear: it's a b******ized design that flopped. 
> 
> We'll see.


Sounds like an Accolade. I would like to see the "VS lens" material availability and compare to the Accolade materials to be sure.  It's a good lens, (better than Comfort, Ovation and Panamic IMHO) but VS is kidding themselves if they think this is a lens made especially for them.  Even Wal-mart doesn't have that much clout w/ Essilor.

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## hipoptical

I still have hope that there are a few remaining people out there who have more than two brain cells- some have posted on this thread, which renewed my hope. For the rest of you, I'll speak slowly, and use small words....
Essilor....is....not....your....friend. 
If that was too hard to understand, I'm sorry- really, really sorry.
If you honestly just don't get it, well that's just sad. Here's how it goes (one more time)...
They make a lens and tell you it's the greatest. You, not knowing any better, buy it for premium $$ and sell it for premium $$$$. They tell you "only select labs, blah-blah-blah". After you've paid for the R&D, they release a "new" lens to the general riff-raff with a new name. The "riff-raff" pays less, and makes more $$ than you. You take pride in being "different"- just like everybody else. Then, just like washing your hair- rinse, and repeat. Bottom line here is this: they couldn't sell enough of the latest-and-greatest, so they agreed to private-label through a huge buying group. You simply do not cut deals on items you are selling a lot of. You cut deals when you are feeling the pressure of an industry that has figured you out for the fraud you are.

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## Fezz

> I still have hope that there are a few remaining people out there who have more than two brain cells- some have posted on this thread, which renewed my hope. For the rest of you, I'll speak slowly, and use small words....
> Essilor....is....not....your....friend. 
> If that was too hard to understand, I'm sorry- really, really sorry.
> If you honestly just don't get it, well that's just sad. Here's how it goes (one more time)...
> They make a lens and tell you it's the greatest. You, not knowing any better, buy it for premium $$ and sell it for premium $$$$. They tell you "only select labs, blah-blah-blah". After you've paid for the R&D, they release a "new" lens to the general riff-raff with a new name. The "riff-raff" pays less, and makes more $$ than you. You take pride in being "different"- just like everybody else. Then, just like washing your hair- rinse, and repeat. Bottom line here is this: they couldn't sell enough of the latest-and-greatest, so they agreed to private-label through a huge buying group. You simply do not cut deals on items you are selling a lot of. You cut deals when you are feeling the pressure of an industry that has figured you out for the fraud you are.


 
Very well said! BRAVO!!!!


:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## Bobie

Sometime, we have to pay 3 times or more for the name of PALs if we not have enough knowledge.

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## OptiBird

> I still have hope that there are a few remaining people out there who have more than two brain cells- some have posted on this thread, which renewed my hope. For the rest of you, I'll speak slowly, and use small words....
> Essilor....is....not....your....friend. 
> If that was too hard to understand, I'm sorry- really, really sorry.
> If you honestly just don't get it, well that's just sad. Here's how it goes (one more time)...
> They make a lens and tell you it's the greatest. You, not knowing any better, buy it for premium $$ and sell it for premium $$$$. They tell you "only select labs, blah-blah-blah". After you've paid for the R&D, they release a "new" lens to the general riff-raff with a new name. The "riff-raff" pays less, and makes more $$ than you. You take pride in being "different"- just like everybody else. Then, just like washing your hair- rinse, and repeat. Bottom line here is this: they couldn't sell enough of the latest-and-greatest, so they agreed to private-label through a huge buying group. You simply do not cut deals on items you are selling a lot of. You cut deals when you are feeling the pressure of an industry that has figured you out for the fraud you are.


:cheers:

I'll drink to that...Some independents get it some dont...Buy an Essilor product-Essillor takes your money-makes more lenses-sales lenses to your competitors (chains)-you put money in competitors pockets! 

Yay!  Thanks to all the support from the independents our competitors will live to outsale us another day:hammer:

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## HarryChiling

> I'll drink to that...Some independents get it some dont...Buy an Essilor product-Essillor takes your money-makes more lenses-sales lenses to your competitors (chains)-you put money in competitors pockets!


I love there explanation for it too, it helps with the cost of production so that they can offer the independent a cheaper lens.

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## Bobie

My recommendation is at below ;

1. If the wearer would like to pay more for the name or pay for what they believe , that is their money. Then , It's not wrong to sell Physio or Physio 360.

2. If the wearer would like to save a lot of money and get some PALs that have same or even better performance more than Physio or Physio 360 , then we have many PALs to used.

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## nicko

Hate to ruin all the Essilor bashers fun, but the fact of the matter is that "white boxing" of product has been around for years.  All, let me repeat, ALL lens manufacturers, have "white boxed" products for high volume customers.  There are no good guy, bad guy scenarios here as it is just a fact of the normal supply and demand process and an integral part of being in a capalistic economy.  It doesn't matter what the lens is; it doesn't matter who the customer is.  If you go to any manufacturer and say, "I have the potential to give you "x" number of dollars in business for a private labeled product", the manufacturer will invaribly say yes.  It would be financial suicide not to.  If Essilor did not do it, there is a long line of manufacturers that would, inclusive of anyone you can think of.

Trust me, manufacturers do not like to be leveraged like this either, but given a situation where the potential to lose much more than what is asked for...what would you do in this situation?  Exactly...I thought so.  After all, aren't third party programs putting you in the same situation?

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## Florida Optician

This battle has been going on in one form or another for years now.

Yes-everyone "white boxes" but it seems that unlike other manufactures, the word just seems to slip out with Essilor. Don't you find it interesting how many rumors we have already heard about this VS proprietary lens? One of our accounts ( who is a VS office) told us that they were told it was the Physio.So who knows what it is.
This reminds me of an ad we were given one time for the "Natural Comfort" lens that a chain was selling in Georgia.
Yes- Essilor makes great lenses but so do a lot of manufactures.I was floored the day a new OD starting out told me that her office HAD to sell Varilux products-when I asked why she thought that-her answer was because that was what we were told in school!
Bottom line in my opinion-Essilor is really really good at marketing and we can only hope that independents will wake up and realize that if they truly want to be different than everyone else -they will look into the numerous other great progressive lens on the market.

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## nicko

So, even though every manufacturer does 'white boxing", Essilor is particularly guilty because of the way they do it?

Sounds like someone couldn't get a Varilux listing so the best they can do is bash them for it.

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## bren_03825

It's kinda weird, but It seems the gist of this thread is that Essilor, like any company I know out there, is out to make money.  And people don't like it.  Hmmmm, follow up question, why does ANYBODY go into business?  Now a neat thing is that since we order and produce the product for the consumer, and can order from any lab we do business with, and I have yet to see in 16 years, even 1 lab that only deals with 1 manufacturer, who cares what essilor, shamir, rodenstock, zeiss, hoya, etc do?  Talk to your patient, find out what they need, and make their business with you the best it could ever be, and maybe you will be the one doing more business than your competitors, because you are better.  That seems to have ALWAYS worked for me, no matter where I have been.

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## nicko

That's what we need Brendan, more attitude like that.  Great stuff.  Would you like to move where its warmer?  I know several places that would welcome you!

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## Pete Hanlin

Since there has been so much discussion in this thread regarding the nature of TruClear and VISO, perhaps some clarification is in order.

First, TruClear is not a remarked Varilux Physio, Ovation, or any other lens.  It is a unique design created at the request of _Vision Source!_, which represents a large group of *private-practice ODs*.

Private label products are common in all kinds of retail environments.  The purpose being to provide a product to a user who wants to protect a segment of their business.  In this case, _Vision Source!_ members want a PAL offering unique to their practices, which cannot be price-shopped at a retailer (or even other practices).  _Vision Source!_ owns the brands TruClear and VISO, and Essilor manufactures the lenses for them.

Concerning the _Essilor-is-not-your-friend_ allegation, I would posit that Essilor has more of an interest in the private practice segment of our market than any other ophthalmic manufacturer producing lenses.  After all, ophthalmic products and services are the sole source of income for Essilor.  By far, the most _profitable_ segment of those products & services is represented by private practice Optometry and Ophthalmology.  Therefore, Essilor loses money every time a patient decides to leave a private practice to shop at a retailer- which is precisely why Essilor invests more resources into R&D of ophthalmic products, education for the market, and advertising to consumers than any other lens manufacturer.

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## For-Life

> So, even though every manufacturer does 'white boxing", Essilor is particularly guilty because of the way they do it?
> 
> Sounds like someone couldn't get a Varilux listing so the best they can do is bash them for it.


Essilor is guilty because it is successful and big.  If Zeiss, Shamir, Younger or whoever was this big this board would bash them too.

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## Framebender

but I actually believe that Hoya is more a friend to independants since they don't sell to the chains.

Again, I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

:cheers:

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## nicko

Uh, that's a negative Framebender.  There is not a lens vendor in the world that does not sell to retail in some way, shape or form.

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## Fezz

> There is not a lens vendor in the world that does not sell to retail in some way, shape or form.


Could you fill those of us who are not educated on this (me), in?

I know that Shamir sells to one of Canada's largest chains. Any other examples?

Thanks for shedding some light on this.

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## nicko

Thanks for the verification Fezz.  I could name several more instances inclusive of just about every vendor, but that really wasn't the point of my post.  When painting someone with a brush, you simply have to use the same brush for everyone.  Of course everyone is entitled to their views, but politicizing on inaccurate or incomplete information is rampant on this forum.  The fact that people may take this information to heart and form an uneducated opinion is distressing to me.  That's why I applauded Bren's post.  Our goal should be to help the patient as best as we can using our experience on products that work based on performance and not a "he said, she said" argument.

That's really it....We should strive to remain ethical above all and a lot of bashing that goes on here transends the fine line of competitiveness versus misinformation.

Thanks

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## hipoptical

> Bottom line in my opinion-Essilor is really really good at marketing and we can only hope that independents will wake up and realize that if they truly want to be different than everyone else -they will look into the numerous other great progressive lens on the market.



:cheers:
Problem is, most want to be different- JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE! They HAVE to be "an exclusive, certified, bona fide, registered, one-of-a-kind" Varilux office, just like every other office out there. That way they can say "You can't just get this lens anywhere.... only every independent, chain, or online optical dispensary offers this." Smart customers respond "Where can I NOT get it?"
"Well, you can't get it at the grocery store, Walgreen's, CVS, Toys R Us, or Starbuck's. So, you see, it's a VERY exclusive product, only available to those who sell eyeglasses and are willing to part with excessive money for old technology."

By-the-way...
I've got a computer for sale. In 1998 it was among the best you could get. Only $799 (monitor not included, does come with printer). Pentium II, Windows 98, upgraded to 64m RAM. I know all you Varilux pushers out there must be foaming at the mouth for this deal! Once I sort through all the PMs I'll sell it to the highest bidder over my offer.

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## jrctx

> Concerning the _Essilor-is-not-your-friend_ allegation, I would posit that Essilor has more of an interest in the private practice segment of our market than any other ophthalmic manufacturer producing lenses.  After all, ophthalmic products and services are the sole source of income for Essilor.  By far, the most _profitable_ segment of those products & services is represented by private practice Optometry and Ophthalmology.  Therefore, Essilor loses money every time a patient decides to leave a private practice to shop at a retailer- which is precisely why Essilor invests more resources into R&D of ophthalmic products, education for the market, and advertising to consumers than any other lens manufacturer.


Pete,
I agree that Essilor has a large interest in private practice but lets not forget that Essilor has their hands in just about every avenue of the optical market.  Lenses, coatings, labs, equipment, software, retail stores, etc.

Also, don't forget that when Essilor and the other manufacturers make deals with retail chains it typically means that there is a lower price for the lenses, coatings, etc. that the private practice built a market for (do they get a thank you?) and the retail chains can then sell for lower than private practice or make deals.  The retail chains have size and can control operating costs well due to their scale but to give them an unfair advantage over the segment you used to build your market is shameful. :Mad:

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## For-Life

> Pete,
> I agree that Essilor has a large interest in private practice but lets not forget that Essilor has their hands in just about every avenue of the optical market.  Lenses, coatings, labs, equipment, software, *retail stores*, etc.


Essilor does not own retail stores.

Also, we should not forget about Stock Club and RX Club that sell independents Essilor products at almost next to nothing, probably cheaper than the chains.

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## Andrew Weiss

> First, TruClear is not a remarked Varilux Physio, Ovation, or any other lens.  It is a unique design created at the request of _Vision Source!_, which represents a large group of *private-practice ODs*.


Thanks for the clarification, Pete.  I admit I was skeptical that a company as big as Essilor would design an entirely new progressive for a specific, niched retail market like Vision Source ODs.  I'll be trying out a TrueClear HD in a couple of weeks; I'll post my review.

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## optical geek

This is soooo true! So many optometrists and optical wholesalers just go with the flow and do what they are told to do. I was very impressed with all of the replys I read concerning Essilor. It is sad that the rich get richer and the poor poorer.

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## For-Life

> This is soooo true! So many optometrists and optical wholesalers just go with the flow and do what they are told to do. I was very impressed with all of the replys I read concerning Essilor. It is sad that the rich get richer and the poor poorer.


To be honest, I keep aware of many labs in Canada and many different products.  I have talked to reps from other big companies, and no one addresses my problems and helps me out more than Essilor.  We keep hearing people talk about how good of a marketer Essilor is.  Now these people use the term in a negative way, because the real definition of "marketing" is not well known.  So lets grab some of the real terms for marketing.  

_“The process of planning and executing the conception, pricing promotion and distribution of ideas, goods and services to create exchanges that satisfy individual and organizational goals.”_
  (Goodyear, 1996 page 106 taken from The American Marketing Association, nc)


_“A social and managerial process by which individuals and groups obtain what they need and want through creating and exchanging products and values with others.”_
  (Kotler, Armstrong, and Cunningham, 2002 page 6)


_Marketing is an organizational function and a set of processes for creating, communicating, and delivering value to customers and for managing customer relationships in ways that benefit the organization and its stakeholders._ 
  (The American Marketing Association, 2004)


Now these are three terms that have evolved with time.  The first one is the oldest, and the last one is the most recent.  These are the real terms for marketing, not what is usually spat at on this board.  I would say that Essilor does successfully fit the role between the second and third definition.

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## hipoptical

> Since there has been so much discussion in this thread regarding the nature of TruClear and VISO, perhaps some clarification is in order.
> 
> First, TruClear is not a remarked Varilux Physio, Ovation, or any other lens.  It is a unique design created at the request of _Vision Source!_, which represents a large group of *private-practice ODs*.
> 
> Private label products are common in all kinds of retail environments.  The purpose being to provide a product to a user who wants to protect a segment of their business.  In this case, _Vision Source!_ members want a PAL offering unique to their practices, which cannot be price-shopped at a retailer (or even other practices).  _Vision Source!_ owns the brands TruClear and VISO, and Essilor manufactures the lenses for them.
> 
> Concerning the _Essilor-is-not-your-friend_ allegation, I would posit that Essilor has more of an interest in the private practice segment of our market than any other ophthalmic manufacturer producing lenses.  After all, ophthalmic products and services are the sole source of income for Essilor.  By far, the most _profitable_ segment of those products & services is represented by private practice Optometry and Ophthalmology.  Therefore, Essilor loses money every time a patient decides to leave a private practice to shop at a retailer- which is precisely why Essilor invests more resources into R&D of ophthalmic products, education for the market, and advertising to consumers than any other lens manufacturer.


OK, I "believe" you... Essilor would never do anything except what is best for me... You're absolutely.....
WAIT A MINUTE! I can't be hypnotized that easily. You'll have to do better than that to convince me. Something like... use actual facts and proof, maybe. If so many independents feel like I do, then one of these days your company is going to have to realize that if we're not right, then the image you project through your business practices does not match your stated company position. In other words, you say one thing, but do something completely different. Example from another company: I was in a meeting with Signet Armorlite along with a hundred others or so, when the president and vice-pres. both said that they will NEVER get into the lab business, they support the independent lab, and will NEVER get into the lab business. Less than two years later they were open for business, and going directly to retailers, for much less than most labs could offer. The Evil Empire is no different, except for doing similar things on a broader scale. You say that when a patient goes to the retailer, Essilor loses? How so? Stuff-Mart sells Varilux, Natural, Ovation, Nikon, etc., and so does just about every other chain retailer out there. Essilor has packaged product specifically for LC before. So please, if you're going to join the discussion, at least offer some proof to your position, instead of towing the old company line. It's getting old, really...

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## Andrew Weiss

Hey, isn't this thread supposed to be about the Essilor/VS progressive? :Rolleyes: 

Pete, what I am concerned about is the increasing homogenization of the industry.  The more independent labs are bought out by Essilor, the more diversity in management structure and perspective we lose, not to mention the more capital gets held in fewer and fewer hands.  

Many of us don't see hegemony in our industry -- whether it's by Essilor, or Zeiss/Sola, or anyone else -- as a good thing.  So there are many of us, myself included, who would prefer to support independent labs, not just other independent retail opticians.  I think if you look deeply into the "I hate Essilor" posts, you'll find that perspective in there.

Hey, isn't this thread supposed to be about the Essilor/VS progressive?;)

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## drk

1.) These business practices is hardly unique to Essilor. We can name multiple optical industry companies that private label, obfuscate, vertically integrate, etc. Really, those who "can", "do". Let's lose our naiivete: no optical corporation is "for independents"...it's a small-guy's marketing position. They're all about money, of course. _They're not us._

2.) In contrast, one of, if not _the_, most important jobs we do as professionals is to understand and analyze optical products and bring them to our patients with confidence and expertise. We operate under another principle as professionals: we are advocates and care-takers. It's a more noble calling than we realize. _We're not them_.

3.) As businesspeople ourselves, though, let's look out for our own interests: quality, price, availability. I think I cite John's here: "It's the art of buying, not selling". What he means is that we have to cut our own "good deals" and add the fruit of our negotiations/shopping to our bottom lines. _No margin, no mission. We do have that in common with them._

Reflect: what is _your_ mission? How can you partner with entities with different or antithetical missions to achieve yours?

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## Judy Canty

Well put!

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## Pete Hanlin

Very well put indeed...  

Regarding the consolidation of the laboratory business, it should probably be noted that the US market is sort of "odd."  In most markets, the laboratories are owned primarily by manufacturers.  In fact, that was also the case in the US- until AO and B&L lab networks were divided up (which gave rise to a number of the independent laboratories currently out there).

One could ask if "being like the rest of the world" is really the way to go...  Well, if you consider premium products a good thing (i.e., patients wearing PALs and/or AR), the answer would have to be "yes" (based on the fact that penetration of PALs and ARs are higher in most of these other markets).

Essilor has a new division I really like- Partner Laboratories.  Essilor purchases an interest in the laboratory- but the laboratory owner retains an interest as well.  The result is the laboratory receives access to Essilor resources and efficiencies, which provides ECPs with the type and feel of the services to which they are accustomed.  Most of the laboratories being added to the Essilor network are now partner laboratories.

As for private practitioners and manufacturers, as was so well noted it all comes down to the objectives of each business.  Essilor is not in competition with the private practice eye care provider (ECP) in any way, shape, or form.  In fact, given the "push" nature of the eyewear market, Essilor relies on their relationship with the private ECP to recommend and deliver their product- just as the practitioner relies on Essilor and other manufacturers to provide new technologies & products.  (Souring that relationship is the interest of our competitors, which explains a lot of what you read on this forum.)

As for that computer from 1998- if it is still outperforming computers built by other vendors today (and Varilux Comfort continues to outperform "new" competitive designs), I suppose I would look to buy a new version of the same model!  Fourteen years after launch, Varilux Comfort is still the world's most prescribed PALs.  Its not the marketing (our marketing folks are good, but they're not that good).  When Varilux Comfort launched, Essilor was NOT the world's largest supplier of PALs- by far.  Varilux Comfort gained market share simply because it has a patented design which out-performs other PAL designs.  ECPs who were used to 10-20% non-adapts started fitting Varilux Comfort and realized it was simply a better design.

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## Fezz

> Varilux Comfort gained market share simply because it has a patented design which *out-performs other PAL designs.*



This is a very interesting statement. I want everybody to re-read that above statement.


Ok....now lets look into that a little more.

1.) "out-performs other PAL designs"  -- says who?

2.) What other PAL designs does it outperform.

3.) Does it "out-perform" just in its overall quality? Or does it "out-perform" do to sales.

4.) How many of Essilors other PAL designs does it "out-perform"?

5.) I just re-read one of Dr. Sheedy's progressive lens reports. I think Dr. Sheedy has provided a valuable measurement of progressives and the overall ratings. I find it almost amusing how few PAL designs that Varilux Comfort *doesn't* "out-perform".

6.) I wonder if its really just the Marketing BS that "out-performs" other PALs?


Pete also makes the statement that the "Varilux Comfort is still the world's most prescribed PALS"

Should one then conclude, by the above statement, that all of Essilors PAL designs since the introduction of the Varilux Comfort, are no better than a outdated Varilux Comfort design?

How are we to believe the BS that Essilor continues to spew about how much better, fantastic, life altering, and great all of their newer PALS are? After all, a fourteen or whatever year old lens design "out-performs other PALS designs"! 

Cut the Bull Puckey.

I could go on, but I am afraid that I will not be nearly as controlled and nice if I continue.

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## Fezz

> This is soooo true! So many optometrists and optical wholesalers just go with the flow and do what they are told to do. I was very impressed with all of the replys I read concerning Essilor. It is sad that the rich get richer and the poor poorer.




Welcome to the mix Optical Geek. Jump on in...the waters fine!(although a bit muddy and polluted by all of this _Big Boy BS_ being spewed about)

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## Fezz

> Essilor relies on their relationship with the private ECP to recommend and deliver their product-.



So that they can then undermine, undercut and stab said private ECP in the back, so they can afford to make "deals" with the very people that the private ECPs are trying to beat.

What a total bunch of Big Business BS.

Come on.....have some integrity. 

Do you really believe the words that you are typing?

Do you honestly believe, that we should ...believe?

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## Andrew Weiss

> Varilux Comfort continues to outperform "new" competitive designs


Like Fezz, I wonder how much of that statement is based on sales figures.  If it is, I also wonder how many of those sales are the result of dispensers like me who keep the patient in the same design they've been wearing unless they complain about it . . .

No doubt the Comfort was a great design in its day, and a good example of a lens that doesn't look as good in hard data as it performs in real life.  But really, the Shamir Genesis has smoother and cleaner optics and has such a _similar design to the Comfort ;)_, wouldn't it "outperform" even the Comfort if Shamir had the same marketing force that Essilor does?

We can debate all day whether the Comfort's success is the result of superior design or superior marketing and probably get nowhere.  

And Pete, I agree with Fezz about the import of your statement about the Comfort in relation to Essilor's subsequent PALs: there's a clear implication that the Comfort is a better-received lens than Essilor's own Panamic, Ovation, Physio, and Accolade -- a statement with which I would, so far, agree.

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## hipoptical

> Essilor has a new division I really like- Partner Laboratories.  Essilor purchases an interest in the laboratory- but the laboratory owner retains an interest as well.  The result is the laboratory receives access to Essilor resources and efficiencies, which provides ECPs with the type and feel of the *services to which they are accustomed*. 
> 
>  Essilor relies on their relationship with the private ECP to recommend and deliver their product...  (*Souring that relationship is the interest of our competitors, which explains a lot of what you read on this forum*.)
> 
> As for that computer from 1998- if it is still outperforming computers built by other vendors today (and Varilux Comfort continues to outperform "new" competitive designs), I suppose I would look to buy a new version of the same model!  Fourteen years after launch, Varilux Comfort is still the world's most prescribed PALs.  Its not the marketing (our marketing folks are good, but they're not that good).  When Varilux Comfort launched, Essilor was NOT the world's largest supplier of PALs- by far.  Varilux Comfort gained market share simply because it has a patented design which out-performs other PAL designs.  ECPs who were used to 10-20% non-adapts started fitting Varilux Comfort and realized it *was* simply a better design.


Are you admitting here that Essilor laboratories do not provide the type of services ECPs are accustomed to?

I haven't seen any posts from your competitors on this thread. That just goes to show that you guys assume too much, and do not listen to the average Joe you claim to support.

You know the old computer will not perform like new versions, and you REALLY know that the Comfort does not "outperform" new lens designs, either. Best selling does not mean best product. It only means that this industry is full of sheep, who follow blindly and do not have the interest, motivation, or whatever it takes to learn about new things and offer the "patient" what is best for their particular life-styles. (And where in this country is it lawful to "PRESCRIBE" a brand?) Essilor gained market share because you convinced the ECP that the chains couldn't get what they could offer... which brings us full-circle back to the original post. You no longer stand for what you claim to do. Any chain can get what I sell in an independent dispensary, and usually offer it for less.

Thanks to Fezz and Andrew for contributing some reason to this insanity.

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## joptician

It reads like hipo and fezz must do lunch together.  I do agree with their opinions about comfort and essilor.  

Yes, the comfort has huge market share and is easy to dispense without many non-adapts but I think our industry is too lazy or too scared to dispense better lenses.  It is much easier to say, "ms. Jones, your Rx has changed slightly and we will use the same lens design as last year since it has worked ok" then take her $$$.  What should be done is to say, "ms. Jones, since we saw you last year there have been some tremendous improvements in lens design and performance."  Then, give her a snipit of what to expect then tell her that there will be a slight adjustment period but after she will see better than before.  I guess many are too scared of that, "I just can't get used to it."

There are 250+ Pals in the US market and there must be no clear winner or winners with a number that high.  How about that reasonably priced Image that always ends up at the top of Dr. Sheedy's list?  It even has the best name for marketing.  "Ms. Jones, how about a Younger Image for you this year?"

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## Fezz

JOptician-

Very well said. 


Welcome!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

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## drk

My friends on Optiboard are very mad, here!

1.) Because we are being "marketed to" by lens companies instead of "partnered with". I understand the umbrage, there.

Companies should be careful to have a two-tiered approach: one for the consumer (not to pick on Essilor, but let's use the Muenster-like "Laser surgery on a progressive" as a prime example), and one for the professional that can understand it (for example: "Varilux Physio's digital molding includes aberration control...Our patient preference data show 6/10 patients prefer it to our Panamic design...). 

A few links to white papers would be nice, to offset the eye candy in the professional journals.

How about the proliferation of "fuzzy spherical optics picture" side-by-side with "crystal aberration-controlled" picture. Come on!  We can all laugh at the low common denominator these ad companies target.  Who approves this crap?  Aim higher!

2.) Because it is perceived that exclusive access to top-shelf designs by independents is an unwritten agreement in the industry...it keeps independents a step ahead of their competition.

This is understandable, and I don't like losing an edge, either, but the advantage is being diminished every day as consolidation continues. I know ODs who hate Vistakon because of their cut-rate selling to Walmart, for example. Oakley wasn't exactly exclusive, what with being in every SGH on earth, but now the Pearly LC's will be stocking it for sure. "Official Dealer" rings a little hollow, now.

Professionals have to have faith that it's the professional, not the product that will be the ultimate differentiator.

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## Andrew Weiss

> How about that reasonably priced Image that always ends up at the top of Dr. Sheedy's list?  It even has the best name for marketing.  "Ms. Jones, how about a Younger Image for you this year?"


We used to use that years ago when Younger came out with its first blended bifocal -- called, simply, the "Younger Bifocal."  "Ms. Jones, why not try a Younger Bifocal?" :D  The company certainly has a great name for marketing to presbyopes!

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## jcwest94

From the looks of the discussion nobody will believe what I am saying, however, I have decided to make a futile remark about the lens....

We have only dispensed one lens thus far, so it is far from a big sampling.   First, some history on us, We are a VisonSource practice.  Second, in the past we have prescribed very few of the Essilor products, we love Zeiss and get better results.  We always try the new stuff that come out and always end up back w/ Zeiss.  

We want this lens to work for the obvious benefit of the exlusivity/price.  However, we have been skeptical of Essilor's newer products.  

The patient we tried this on has tried physio, 360, and definityshort and didn't like them as much as older designs like ellipse and comfort.  We put her in a GT2 10 days prior to the Truclear, she loved it and it was hands down better than her previous pair w/ the same Rx and frame.  When she put on the Truclear, same frame, she handed us the GT2 and said we can keep them.  It was instant satisfaction.  

I don't know if this will hold true for others, but we have no hesitation trying it on a few more patients.  In the past with Essilors other "better than everything" designs we never had such a quick decisive response.

In regards to how this was pitched to us prior to the release.  We were told that there was a big fight w/in Essilors ranks about not putting the Verilux name on this lens.  The marketing people saw the benefit of giving the lens to VS and the engineers were too proud to give it away.  As usual, the marketing people won and this lens is now owned by VS.  My understanding is that it was not developed for VS, but developed for Verilux and given to VS.  I don't know if anybody will know for sure, but I dont think they could have developed this lens in the amount of time between when the VS managment went to France and when it was announced.  That is my speculation.

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## Andrew Weiss

> In regards to how this was pitched to us prior to the release.  We were told that there was a big fight w/in Essilors ranks about not putting the Verilux name on this lens.  The marketing people saw the benefit of giving the lens to VS and the engineers were too proud to give it away.  As usual, the marketing people won and this lens is now owned by VS.  My understanding is that it was not developed for VS, but developed for Verilux and given to VS.  I don't know if anybody will know for sure, but I dont think they could have developed this lens in the amount of time between when the VS managment went to France and when it was announced.  That is my speculation.


OK, folks, my VS TruClear HD arrived this morning and I'm wearing it.  It's a very nice lens, my hat's off to Essilor on this one.  Distance peripheral is clean, intermediate zone is decently wide, reading area is good, optics are clear and stable, peripheral astigmatism is handled reasonably well.  No obvious anomolies.  I'd say it's a good overall lens.

As to what Dr. West reports: that is what our OD told me also -- that this was a design Essilor had already done, had already made the molds for, but had shelved for some reason.  He also said the same thing about the fight within Essilor about giving up this design to VisionSource.  It's a good story. But, just for fun, I also looked at the general lens design and just for fun compared it to an Accolade Freedom I have waiting here.  Different Rxs, but they look very similar.

So I wonder: is the TruClear HD really an Accolade Freedom under a different name? ;)  Whatever it is, it's a very good lens.  I'll know more about whether I'll recommend it to our patients after the weekend.

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## MarcE

> that this was a design Essilor had already done, had already made the molds for, but had shelved for some reason. So I wonder: is the TruClear HD really an Accolade Freedom under a different name? ;) Whatever it is, it's a very good lens. I'll know more about whether I'll recommend it to our patients after the weekend.


Manufacturers claim that it costs millions to develop a new lens.  I don't disagree.  Do you think they designed a lens just for Vision Source?  No way, too expensive.
When they decided on the Physio design after doing subjective test fittings on thousands of people, what do you think happened to the 2nd place lens design?  What happened to the 3rd place design? Fourth?  Shamir sells theirs to other lens manufacturers.
Wal-Mart has one of those lenses from Essilor.  I don't know if it's exclusive though.
I wonder what Vision Source paid?  I wonder what Wal-Mart paid.  My guess on the later is $0.

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## For-Life

Wal-Mart has lenses from everyone.  At least Essilor renames it so us independents look to carry different products.

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## joptician

I am curious about the markings on the VS/Essilor lens.  What identifying marks are they using?

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## melvilletim

I have ordered 3 so far of the HD type. they are using VS as the identifier. so far great response, just like Zeiss Individual, only cheaper to purchase. My high cyl pt liked them hands down compared to the gt2 in the same frame and rx. We tested them for a friend of the practice. So far, Definity-No good, Varilux Ellipse- O.K., GT2 great, and the truclear HD was so good she handed me back her GT2 and said I can keep them. She loved the lens that much. Pt is -1.25 -3.00 with a +2.25 add. BTW I am NOT a varilux fan, having dispensed Zeiss for 7 years.

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## Perry

Alot of interesting disscussion here. 

One thing dispensers might want to consider is the fact that
much of your sales V.S. included are to patients with vision 
insurance and you are payed at a dramatically different rate 
depending on which brand you fit. 

In some cases you get a lower fee for fitting lenses that cost
you more. This will wreck your COG.

Dig deep into your insurance manuals and you will discover 
which lenses to fit.

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## For-Life

Does Vision Source sell to chains or independents?

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## hipoptical

Vision Source is a buying group.

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## For-Life

> Vision Source is a buying group.


and the people who buy from Vision Source are independents or chains?

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## joptician

Vision Source is a buying group of retailers.  Or, they are independent retail offices banded together as a group called Vision Source.  They are large in number, 300+ and beat up all vendors kind of like what walmart does.  I guess in reality, they are no better than Lenscrafters or Eyemasters when compared to the truly independent one office retailer.  But, I'm sure you can sign up.

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## For-Life

> Vision Source is a buying group of retailers. Or, they are independent retail offices banded together as a group called Vision Source. They are large in number, 300+ and beat up all vendors kind of like what walmart does. I guess in reality, they are no better than Lenscrafters or Eyemasters when compared to the truly independent one office retailer. But, I'm sure you can sign up.


But aren't all independents able to join? Are there any major negatives to joining like Davis Vision?

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## melvilletim

My reply to joptician is Vision Source is a Buying Group ONLY. My Doc is a true Independant as are most other VS Docs. For you to imply that we are ANYTHING like WalMart or L.C. shows your ignorance of what buying groups really are about. I apologise for being harsh, but having had worked at chain stores for 7 years I really need to clear the air about what vision source is. It is like Vision West in California. We get good pricing with select vendors due to the # of Independant O.D's affiliated with V.S.

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## ADO

> My reply to joptician is Vision Source is a Buying Group ONLY. My Doc is a true Independant as are most other VS Docs. For you to imply that we are ANYTHING like WalMart or L.C. shows your ignorance of what buying groups really are about. I apologise for being harsh, but having had worked at chain stores for 7 years I really need to clear the air about what vision source is. It is like Vision West in California. We get good pricing with select vendors due to the # of Independant O.D's affiliated with V.S.


Vision Source is a franchise system owned by TLC. There are about 3 to 4 OD's who are also major stock holders. They are not an insurance company.
To say that Vision Source is like Lens Crafters or EyeMasters is not correct, but it is also not correct to say that VS is like Vision West. Vision West fees are completely different from Vision Source. Members of Vision Source are independent doctors who pay 4 to 6% of their gross revenue to belong to the group. When the doctor signs up with Vision Source they sign a franchise agreement and become a Vision Source doctor. VS offers a buying group component, but their pricing structure is much higher then standard buying groups. If your doctor is using Vision Source just for the cost savings then I would say the savings he is looking at the wrong source for that. 
For-Life, it basically boils down to this. If you are looking for savings on your purchases you should take a look at the traditional buying groups. Chances are you will find the savings similar and you won't have to pay the high price to join VS. You will only pay on the things you buy through the buying group. VS says they have a marketing piece where they market all of the VS doctors in your area together. They also have national meetings with plenty of education and team building.  If shared marketing, education and team building are your thing then VS may fit that bill. It will be a hefty bill though. I believe you can get all of those pieces separate from VS and save a lot of money. 

Yes... I do run a buying group.

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## Andrew Weiss

Ok, let's see if I can get this straight (since I work in a Vision Source office):

1) Vision Source is a franchise of optometrists only.  From what I understand, it's one of those groups where you can't just sign up, you have to be asked to join.  VS has its own conferences; it gives its member-ODs opportunities to network with each other and gives those newer in practice the opportunity to hook up with a mentor.  

2)  THERE IS NO PRICE FIXING!  As the optician here, I work with the doc to set our lens and frame fees; they are not dictated by VS.  

3)  To the best of my knowledge, VS doesn't act as "reseller" for special products like the VS progressive.  As far as I know, you can't get the VS progressive unless you're a VS member office.

4) The VS progressive has not been approved by VSP.  My hunch is that they won't approve it because it's only available to VS member offices.

I know there's at least one other VS doc in this thread, so please tell me if I've messed this up :)

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## hipoptical

VS is a "Chain of Independents" :bbg:

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## Andrew Weiss

> VS is a "Chain of Independents" :bbg:


Yep, with all the contradictions that implies  :Cool:

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## Christosfer

> Hate to ruin all the Essilor bashers fun, but the fact of the matter is that "white boxing" of product has been around for years. All, let me repeat, ALL lens manufacturers, have "white boxed" products for high volume customers. There are no good guy, bad guy scenarios here as it is just a fact of the normal supply and demand process and an integral part of being in a capalistic economy. It doesn't matter what the lens is; it doesn't matter who the customer is. If you go to any manufacturer and say, "I have the potential to give you "x" number of dollars in business for a private labeled product", the manufacturer will invaribly say yes. It would be financial suicide not to. If Essilor did not do it, there is a long line of manufacturers that would, inclusive of anyone you can think of.
> 
> Trust me, manufacturers do not like to be leveraged like this either, but given a situation where the potential to lose much more than what is asked for...what would you do in this situation? Exactly...I thought so. After all, aren't third party programs putting you in the same situation?


 
Well said. Go to Walgreens or target, the shelves are full of items with their own labels, while the brand name stuff sits right next to it made by the same people. 
As for the Tru clear lens, I have wondered the same things; is this thing a Physio? It is only available in cr-39 and Poly, so I have my doubts that it's an accolade. They just launched it in transitions, which, if it were a Physio they could have done right away.

Don't let me stop the black helicopter talk though. God forbid us Opticians get bored with bending frames. 
Did you hear that Luxottica is buying Essilor, Zeiss, Shamir and Rodenstock? Supposed to go down with the next full moon. I'm gonna cobble a set of glasses in my garage, see ya later. :hammer:

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## ayoco

don't care if essilor owns stores or not or in usa yet or not but what is connection to;
Essilor OY in Finland, www.essilor.fi
or
Essilor AB Sweden, www.essilor.se

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## sharpstick777

> Considering that ELOA labs give VS doctors a big discount as well as an additional rebate, the "private label" progressives and A/R don't strike me as a major change . . .
> 
> What concerns me is the subtle pressure that a private label product can create: to give the patient that lower-cost progressive even though one that costs us more may be better suited to the patient's Rx and needs.


Its a slippery slope and if we go down it ourselves, are we any better than Walmart, Costco or LC?  Its what they do.

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## sharpstick777

> You guys should take some action and wane off Essilor's products if you don't like their business practices. They are not the only game in town although they would like to think so. I was at a conference recently and when asked by an Essilor lab rep why I wasn't giving them more business I told them that by me not giving them more business they could spend more time selling lenses to Walmart.


Love it!

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## racethe1320

> Concerning the _Essilor-is-not-your-friend_ allegation, I would posit that Essilor has more of an interest in the private practice segment of our market than any other ophthalmic manufacturer producing lenses.


Really? How is Varilux holding up in the market?  What are your own brand reps seeing and saying out there?  Hmmmm.....me thinks and knows they are seeing change in Kool-Aid flavors out in the marketplace.    Essilor is in it for Essilor.  Long Live France my friend and your talk is talk unless you can prove otherwise.



> After all, ophthalmic products and services are the sole source of income for Essilor.  By far, the most _profitable_ segment of those products & services is represented by private practice Optometry and Ophthalmology.


True and Essilor is moving from a fine producer of technology to more of a marketing machine that's being squeezed from all sides to maintain marketshare.  The only reason they are buying up labs is to control the distribution of their own product.



> Therefore, Essilor loses money every time a patient decides to leave a private practice to shop at a retailer


not true, they make it up for all the support and products they provide to the retail chains too.  If you're implying that there's no connection between the major retail chains controlled by Lux and the products Essilor pumps out there, I'm not ever going to buy what you're selling in that statement.




> which is precisely why Essilor invests more resources into R&D of ophthalmic products, education for the market, and advertising to consumers than any other lens manufacturer.


I think everyone would agree with that. Essilor is a marketing machine that's for sure.  However, the latest round of products are really a stretch to maintain some hype in the marketplace.  If Essilor were truly that innovative and had such a strong management team, they would hardly be turning over reps on the brand side and lab side like they are.  I'm sorry, but when your own people are bailing on you, it's a pretty clear testament that something on the home front isn't right.




> There is not a lens vendor in the world that does not sell to retail in some way, shape or form.


Essilor clearly manufactures and targets retail WAY more than anyone else.




> Regarding the consolidation of the laboratory business, it should probably be noted that the US market is sort of "odd."  In most markets, the laboratories are owned primarily by manufacturers.  In fact, that was also the case in the US- until AO and B&L lab networks were divided up (which gave rise to a number of the independent laboratories currently out there).
> 
> Essilor has a new division I really like- Partner Laboratories.  Essilor purchases an interest in the laboratory- but the laboratory owner retains an interest as well.  The result is the laboratory receives access to Essilor resources and efficiencies, which provides ECPs with the type and feel of the services to which they are accustomed.  Most of the laboratories being added to the Essilor network are now partner laboratories.


The consolidation is Essilor push to control distribution of their own product as without the labs they would truly be suffering.   They aren't providing any real resources or efficiencies, they are telling the "partner" owners that they buy out on contract to sell primarily if not solely Essilor product or you won't get the money paid out.  It's a strong arm approach to controlling distribution.   If Essilor were truly partners, you'd see them outfitting these "partner" labs with better equipment and operational capability.  Instead they often let them die and are simply taking the jobs out of that lab and using them to feed the Essilor owned labs work.



> Essilor is not in competition with the private practice eye care provider (ECP) in any way, shape, or form.


Really?  Should we all start to list out the ways in which Essilor competes?  I can't believe you even spilled that drop of Kool-Aid in here.




> In fact, given the "push" nature of the eyewear market, Essilor relies on their relationship with the private ECP to recommend and deliver their product- just as the practitioner relies on Essilor and other manufacturers to provide new technologies & products.


Again, the "push around" nature of Essilor is to control the distribution chain.  You're right, Essilor relies on the Private Practice ECP but they are diverting money to their own team first and certainly don't truly support private practice like you lead everyone to believe.  Good news is no one buys your story as the truth is way clear.  ECP's don't have to rely on your products any more.  All too often the designers themselves are providing labs all over their own private label progressive and digital products so no one needs you any more.




> Varilux Comfort continues to outperform "new" competitive designs), I suppose I would look to buy a new version of the same model!


Again, you words, but I'll gladly do so and have put your Varilux products up against others out there and show you it DOES NOT perform nearly as well.  Consumers say so and I can prove it with the conversion I've made in our own offices.  The adaption and satisfaction rate against some of the other products out there is startlingly clear.  Again, think three letters and their new product.  It's awesome.




> Fourteen years after launch, Varilux Comfort is still the world's most prescribed PALs.  Its not the marketing (our marketing folks are good, but they're not that good).  When Varilux Comfort launched, Essilor was NOT the world's largest supplier of PALs- by far.  Varilux Comfort gained market share simply because it has a patented design which out-performs other PAL designs.  ECPs who were used to 10-20% non-adapts started fitting Varilux Comfort and realized it was simply a better design.


Sure....let's see how your market share fairs this year with the introduction of new products from the others.  Let's see how the market responds.   The writing is already on the wall.




> don't care if essilor owns stores or not or in usa yet or not but what is connection to;
> Essilor OY in Finland, www.essilor.fi    or Essilor AB Sweden, www.essilor.se


^^ This and many others.

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## RT

You're arguing with a 5 year old post?

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## Judy Canty

Slow day... :Rolleyes:

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## racethe1320

> You're arguing with a 5 year old post?


Ha!  Guess I should have read the dates.   Was posting from a tablet so I struggled enough.

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## hcjilson

As the saying goes..........that's sort of removing all doubt!  At least he's showing us all the Giant Killers are not asleep!

This thread is essentially about marketing (my minor in B school)  Why does everyone get so upset when someone else does a better job of marketing than we do. Be happy for them,,,,, and it's OK to BORROW from them too! Maybe we WILL get better someday.

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