# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Lionel Tate Sentencing

## Joann Raytar

I was wondering what your opinions were on Lionel Tate.  We discussed it a little bit at Sunday's chat.  The boy was 12, big for his age, when he killed the girl.  His mom, a FL state police woman, rejected a plea bargin and now the boy has been sentenced to life in prison without parole.

[quote}FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla., Jan. 25  A 13-year-old boy was convicted today of first degree murder in the death of a 6-year-old girl, as the jury rejected defense arguments that the girl died accidentally while the boy was imitating professional wrestlers' moves.[/quote]




> A Florida judge of the United States sentenced a 14-year-old boy on Friday to life in prison without parole for the murder two years ago of a 6-year-old girl, rejecting the defense's request for a retrial or a reduction in the verdict.


My question is they decided it wasn't an accident; for those of you with kids does a 12 year old now better?

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## hcjilson

Larry King devoted most of last nights program on this and it was pretty comprehensive.The lawyers on both sides and the parents of the little girl,as well as someone from Amnesty Intl.Of all the people there, the only one who thought the boy deserved life in prison, was the girls father.Apparently the judge had no choice in sentencing because the law was clear and straightforward.All thought  the boy should face some punishment which is why they tried for a plea bargin.The retrospectoscope  (which always sees 20-20)view is that they should have gone with that.Whn they didn't, the judge had no leeway.What I think will happen is that Govenor Jeb will commute after 3 years.

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Harry J

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## Night Train

I have a difficult time believing that this is an isolated incident of being out of control with this boy. I am wondering if this could have been forseen and if there is any blame to be given to the parents. Having said that, life in prison is way over the line. if I were a judge I'd come up with some creative way for the boy to give back to society a little of the joy he has taken away.

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## Cindy Hamlin

It is my understanding that the boy's mother was upstairs when it happened.  The little girl had 30 fractures and bruises on her body and a lacerated liver.  Could this woman not hear the little girl screaming and begging for her life?  

Also, it is time for him to come clean about what indeed occurred between the two of them.  Surely, it could not be the story he has told because the injuries do not fit him just throwing her into the staircase.  I think he should be required to come clean as a condition BEFORE his sentence is commuted.  Maybe if we hear what actually occurred then we may not be so lenient on him!

I agree, also, that this could not be the first occurrance with this boy.  Due to the violence and severity it cannot be isolated.  If it is isolated he must be one tremendously angry boy!

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## Pete Hanlin

My son is 6, and I believe he would know better than to commit the actions of that 12 year old.  I totally agree that the parent(s) should share in the blame.  Unless you are completely disconnected from your child, you would _have_ to know if s/he had violent tendencies that were _that_ dramatic.

Pete "I might feel like the girl's father if something like that happened to my 4 year old daughter" Hanlin

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## chip anderson

Does society or the world really need such mosters preserved or later unleashed on nothing more than the "opinion" of a psychologist?   If you have read anything about psychology's own developemnt you can easily see their opinion of things reverses about every 20 years.   Who wants to spend $50,000 a year supporting some worthless individual when he could be spending the same dollars to educate his own children.

Go for faster cheaper executions, let God sort them out.

Chip (So far right, I'm an imperialist) Anderson

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## stephanie

I must agree with Chip on this one. Yes I do believe that a 12 year old does indeed know right from wrong. What role does the mother have in this?? Supposedly she was upstairs asleep. I have a hard time with that. First of all my mom never went to sleep while we had friends over, Second why was a 6 year old girl playing with a 12 year old boy, three why did the mother NOT hear the kid screaming. It is all very creepy to me. He obviously has some mental/violence issues which I find very hard to believe the parents were not aware of.

Steph

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## Joann Raytar

Funny thing is, in a similar story a 13 year old girl shot her younger brother; I can't remember if he was 4 or 6.  She admited to just plain murdering him.  At 13 I can't imagine what it would have took to make me that desensitized to another life.  OK, TV violence may play a roll in this but there is more to these acts of violence.

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## hcjilson

I dropped off to sleep before the end of the Larry King show a couple of nights ago.My wife told me that later on in the show it was reported that Lionel had been suspended from school a total of 14 times since he was in kindergarten! By my reckoning thats about twice a year. That would seem to indicate that there was more than one person who realized there was a problem with this boy.It also seemed (my observation only) that he was playing with somewhat less than a full deck.I think in this case there is a huge amount of parental responsibility.But what can be done?Can the parent be expected to serve a sentence? Although there is financial liability, what is anyone going to get from a single working mother.This is a tough case from all standpoints.

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Harry J

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## Maria

Are you familiar over there with the James Bulger case?
It seems to be similar in some respects, but I won't go into detail if you already know it.

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## Cindy Hamlin

I think more parents have to be held accountable.  Look at the Columbine massacre kids (Klebold and Harris), they had guns of all types at their house.  Also, where did they get the money to buy the gun at the gun show?  Their parents!  I don't believe either was employed!

Here is where I climb on my soapbox........

When I was a child, I would never dream of speaking to or treating my parents the way I see some kids behave.  I would get a size 8 or 12 (mom and dad, respectively) shoe in my a##!  I would have sooner died (literally) than disrespect my parents.  

I think as parents get more permissive that society as a whole suffers!  That we desensitize children to words like responsibility, decency and (good ole) common sense.  Sure I felt at times like I could "go postal" at school, but I couldn't because common sense and decency lead me otherwise!  My parents guided me (think size 8 and 12) otherwise.

Parents all the time, after something happens, look apologetically into the camera lens and can't fathom why.  I think when parents are held accountable we will have less tragedies! Parents must be held accountable!  When a child is withheld medical treatment or neglected we RUSH in and in most cases prosecute the parents! Why should this be any different?

I shall climb down from the box now!

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## stephanie

Maria, is that the case where those two teenage boys beat the little boy to death? If it is it was on one of the the news programs here and I saw it. It was horrible. Cindy, is there room on that soap box for me??? I could not agree with you more. If I ever did half of what alot of kids today get away with I would still be in the coma my parents put me in!!! Who didn't get picked on in school? I am 29 years old in the real working adult world and STILL get picked on at work no less. You get mad you cry or slam something and get over it the best you can. It is hard to deal with YES but so is prison!!! Where some deal with things in a violent manner I will just choose to go look for another job. Hopefully my situation will be fixed soon :) :) :) My point is there are solutions to problems that are non-violent. We must be taught and children especially since it is harder for them to control their impulses. Yes going to school for most people
is no picnic. We all got made fun of if they couldn't find a reason they would make up one. Adults are not teaching their children how to cope with these things. Well that is my sermon for tonight....tune in tomorrow night for ethics at the work place and how it affects our business(it isn't worth any ce's but may be a good topic to talk about) :)

Steph

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## chip anderson

Parent accountability:  I have seen some "perfect parents" have several children, attempt to raise them in the same manner and have one of them turn out rotten one "a perfect child."  Have also seen some pretty rotten kids turn out to be excellent citizens in adulthood and vice~versa.

No letting parents of the hook but other things seem to be in force some times..  

Also the other day I heard a number of child psychologists, clergy, educators, etc. Call in on a talk radio show (about child rearing) and the only thing they all agreed on was "Never tell a child to do or not to do anything twice."

We seem to all be so damn afraid that if we enforce our "parental authority" we will no longer be loved by our children.  I have a daughter with some ill behaved hyper~active children who are "warned" repeatedly.  On those occasions that my grown son sees them, he tells his mother "Thank God you beat the c--- out of me when I did stuff like that."  I have heard many adults that are glad that their parents were strong on discipline.

Think everyone above the age of reason (say around 5 or six) is responsible for things when they cross the line so far as to do permanent harm (especially if that harm requires more than a single act, as in a beating vs. a single retaliatory punch.)

And yes, I do believe in self~defense at any age, even if need be violent self defense.  Sometimes kind words are not applicable to the situation.

Chip

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## Maria

> Originally posted by stephanie:
> _Maria, is that the case where those two teenage boys beat the little boy to death? If it is it was on one of the the news programs here and I saw it. It was horrible. 
> Steph_


Basically, yes. But they weren't teenagers, they were 10 years old at the time. And they didn't just beat him to death, they kidnapped and tortured him, before leaving his body on a railway line to be cut in two. They are in the news again now, because they are due to be released.

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## chip anderson

Down heah in Mississippi we have little trouble with adults who molest children.  We just send them to the general population at Parchman State Penn.  It seems that the general population of murderers, rapists, drug dealers, and other fine citizens finds dees folks ob jectionable an they don't last but about 6 weeks.   

They just cease to be.

Very strange but true.




[This message has been edited by chip anderson (edited 03-18-2001).]

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## stephanie

Maria, sorry my memory failed a bit. Yes I do remember the story completely now that you clarified it a bit. The mother of the boy that died was on the news program. I don't think they should be released into society after the discusting crime they committed. I feel that if killing is in your blood you will do it again. I am also glad my parents were extremely stict. I am from that family Chip spoke of. You would never know my sister and I came from the same family. We don't even share the same values. I won't go into any details about it but she basically is a huge problem for the family. We care about her but sometimes you just have to wash your hands of people and hope to God they decide to do something with their lives. 
Steph

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## Pete Hanlin

I agree that what a lot of today's kids need is a size 9 1/2 up the a$$!  (I always feel so old when I talk about "today's kids.")  Want to see how wierd society's gotten?  Try spanking your child in a public place (which I haven't had to do too often, but geesh).  The looks you get range from "you monster" to "aw, that poor kid has a brute for a father." I'm not even talking about the _real_ can't-sit-down-afterwards spankings I got when I was a kid- I just mean the "one or two whaps on the butt to let you know you need to calm it down some."

Sometimes I feel like I'm too strict on my kids (because I don't let them do whatever they want), then I see how they behave compared to other kids I see in our optical.  I've actually had children mutilate three or four frames (to which their parents say, "Now, Billy, you need to stop destroying the nice man's frames..." or some other PC blather).  Auggggh!

The funny part is, if you truly discipline your kids, it seems as if you need to do less of it (one warning usually does it at our house).  Who knows, though- too bad the little ******s don't come with instructions (and an "off" switch)  :) .

Pete

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## Rex

Okay, let me throw a couple thoughts out that fit this line of conversation.

How many parents today, require their children to treat them with the basic respect(Yes Mam, Yes Sir, Thank You, Excuse me, Please, Your Welcome, I'm sorry, etc) we all grew up using?

How come I need to get a license to fish, drive, get married, do business, etc, but almost anyone (not smart enough to use protection) can have and raise a child?

Where was the father in all this?

Rex

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## John R

> Originally posted by Pete Hanlin:
> _I agree that what a lot of today's kids need is a size 9 1/2 up the a$$_


So true but when my little brat played up at the local mall and i was giving her a piece of my mind, just had hold of her arm while she struggled to escape, This woman came up to me and said "You should'nt do that its not right to treat a child like that" (she had not seen what she had been like in a shop)
Well that did it droped kid and was about to lay into her about keeping her nose out when mrs steamed in and gave her a mouth full boy did she disapear fast  :D
Surfice to say kid did not get what she wanted apart from a trip to bed for the rest of the day.....

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## Cindy Hamlin

That is a good thought-where was dad??  I have heard no mention or seen dad!  

Hillary Clinton wrote a book "It takes a village to raise a child", but my mom's version was it takes a "smack on the butt".

I thank god that she raised me tough and was tough on me.  I am (hopefully)someone they are proud of!  

Steph, I agree with your comments about peer pressure and teasing.  I, fortunately, was very popular.  I didn't pick on others and would not tolerate my friends doing so also.  I would always remind them that it could be us except we have friends!  

Cindy "Yearning for the Leave it to Beaver World"!!!!!!!!!!

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## stephanie

Rex I just said the same thing to my mom earlier today. How come all these people are allowed to reproduce. Ok, nothing against families and kids but if you aren't going to raise them properly don't have them. Scary thing when you have those people coming in with 4 kids and one on the way and they are 10 years younger than me!!! Especially since I am supporting them. No, I don't get to have a hand in their discipline or even get to pick a name, BUT I get to feed them and put a house over their head pay for medical care etc.... something is wrong with this. Just my thoughts!!
Steph

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## Joann Raytar

I think Pete hit the nail on the head with all of the politically correct stuff.  That and the self help books.  I can't remember which comedian it was but he had a joke about parents telling their children to "take a time out."  His take on it was, tell a child to take a time out and they think you are an easy parent.  They know that there are no serious repercussions for doing wrong.

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## Suzy W

Just a thought here, maybe a bad one.... it's been a long day at the office.  But, alot of kids we see in our area behaving badly are the ones being raised by someone who had them at 16/17.  Mom/Dad brought a child into this world, but the parents still want to play and want their time.  The "good" parents I know spend most of their free time with their children.  Studying, playing games or doing puzzles, they are always doing something as a family.  Do you think that has something to do with it?
I have to ask since I have no children of my own.  If I did I know they sure as heck would not act the way alot of kids do.  I grew up in a house with guns, two shotguns to be exact, and I would not have touched them no matter what.  Not only would my dad's shoe still be up my rear end, I would have dissapointed him, which means more.
The OD I work for and I do exams, etc in a prsion and the reality is not pretty and these young people really don't have a clue what they are in for.  The "almost" funny thing is alot of the inmates in the prision have the same attitude that "we" as a society owe them something because they are in prision.  Where did that come from?  
Ok, ok.. I'll get off my soapbox now.  Just felt like ranting.  LOL   Am I forgiven?

Suzy

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## Cindy Hamlin

Did anyone see on the news that Johnny Cochran is now representing Lionel.  I guess we will never know what really happened to that little girl now.

I agree the punishment was obsessive, but I still feel we need to know exactly what happened between the two of them!

I guess time will tell!

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## Specs

Sorry, but an eye for an eye. That girl will never heal and be free to live, so neither should he. He did a horrible thing to that little girl.

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## spazz

I think a lot of parents today are afraid to punish their children in any way that gets the point across. The fear of visits from social workers, or even going to court over a 'pat on the rear' (which I believe MOST people with even a smidgen of common sense can distinguish from abuse) is very real in today's society.
 If after 12 years of raising this child the mother didn't realize that whatever she was doing didn't work and didn't seek any of the plethera of help from professional counselors and others that are out there, then she does deserve at least part of the blame for what happened. 

spazz

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