# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Defending Harry

## Night Train

Yesterday, I agreed to a 10 minute debate next week in our Sunday School class. I am to take a position FOR the Harry potter Books. My adversary will try to convince our class That Harry is Evil and Teaches witchcraft to our children. As this opposing view is obviously rediculous, I do not forseee this being much of a challenge. BUt, If anyone wants to help me in this endeavor, feel free to post your observations.

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## hcjilson

Don't listen to the muggles!
The are some who would accuse the bearded old guy who parted the Red Sea of witchcraft, to say nothing of the one who fed the multitudes with loaves and fishes as well as helping Lasarus out of a deep sleep.Who is to say what is right or wrong to read.Any vehicle which promulgates reading in youngsters is valuable.Reading is how we learn.Harry Potter = reading ergo Harry Potter is good for the young and young at heart.I remember Pete Hanlin touting the book some time back.I finally got a copy and am halfway through it, having the time of my life reading it for fun.Thats exactly what it is.....FUN.
good luck and don't forget to return to this thread and tell us what happened.
friend harry

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## Pete Hanlin

I would argue that it is very healthy for children to be exposed to stories that involve the imagination.  Actually, if anything, I would argue against the _movie_, because the books encourage children to read and use their imagination- which is lost somewhat in the movie.

Whether the imaginary story involves a "little engine that could" or King Arthur and a magic sword or a child who uses bravery and teamwork to overcome evil at a school of magic is rather immaterial.  The books aren't a manual for witchcraft, there are no satanic references, and good generally triumphs.  Where then is the harm? 
It is a _fantasy_ story, for the love of god!  This is just like some parents who want to shield their children from any exposure to normal aspects of life (e.g., alcohol, music with a rhythm, etc.).  You can "protect" them as long as you like, but all you are doing is setting them up to be incapable of handling them responsibly later on.

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## Night Train

Well, the debate is over. It really wasnt much of a debate. It was me against about twenty brainless morons...ooops...I mean Christian Brothers and Sisters. I heard things like:

"Oh my...I read one page and things were moving in shadows and there were scary cats....you can't tell me thats not demonic activity"

"Doesnt this Dumbledore character have a pointy nose? And don't witched have pointy noses?......need I say more?"

"I heard there is a first grade class in godknowswhere Missourri where students are actually required to read about Real witchcraft and occult activity as they practise spells they have learned from these books"

"Didnt the Author have to research her work about witches before she could write about them? How do you think that Affected HER?"

I managed to make all the obvious points and still not get kicked out of church. You know, its know wonder sometimes that Christains have the reputations we have. If I was a reporter, Id make my stories come out in such a way to make fun of us too. The world sees Christianity as a list of "Dos and Don'ts" and we keep adding to the list. How frustrating. Does anyone actually hear the words they sing in "AMAZING GRACE" or are they jsut repeating them? Yes, you can read Harry Potter and go to Heaven. You can smoke and go to Heaven. (Thats for Maria) This one would get me kicked out of church....There will be homosexuals with better seats in heaven than I will have. Yes, Hell is real, but lets not populate it with people who arent evil. There is enough evil in the world that we dont have to go making it up.

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## chip anderson

I'm with Pete on this one.   And after all Harry is not an evil warlock,  he does not study for demonic results.

Chip

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## Steve Machol

> _Originally posted by Night Train_ 
> *I heard things like:
> 
> "Oh my...I read one page and things were moving in shadows and there were scary cats....you can't tell me thats not demonic activity"
> 
> "Doesnt this Dumbledore character have a pointy nose? And don't witched have pointy noses?......need I say more?"
> 
> "I heard there is a first grade class in godknowswhere Missourri where students are actually required to read about Real witchcraft and occult activity as they practise spells they have learned from these books"
> 
> "Didnt the Author have to research her work about witches before she could write about them? How do you think that Affected HER?"*


ROLFLMAO!!  I find it simply amazing that we need to deal with people like this and that anyone would take these arguments seriously.    :Rolleyes:

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## JRS

And some people will swear the pro-wrestling is real too.

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## Steve Machol

> _Originally posted by JRS_ 
> *And some people will swear the pro-wrestling is real too.*


Don't get me started on this!  My son is into 'pro' wrestling.  I swear sometimes that my wife must have been cheating on me! ;)

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## hcjilson

Are you guys trying to tell me.....[B]PRO WRESTLING ISN'T REAL????????????? I'll bet the next thing your going to tell me is that there is no Santa Claus!:) 
talk to you all at the beginning of the week!
hj

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## LaurieC

and feel for Marlena! Besides that Jim keeps looking at me, I almost wonder if I cheated on me! I have this young man whom I thought was normal, seemed intelligent....... he runs around doing this eyebrow thing telling me he's something called "the rock"



> _Originally posted by Steve Machol_ 
> *Don't get me started on this!  My son is into 'pro' wrestling.  I swear sometimes that my wife must have been cheating on me! ;)*

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## Joann Raytar

Night Train,

Our public access station had a discussion on the very same topic, Harry that is.  Apparently the guest was someone who wrote the book The Reintroduction Of Witchcraft To Children or something like that.

She backed up her arguments by saying that Harry Potter teaches bad values to kids.  I believe at one point during the movie Harry does something bad and his professor tells him that it is OK.  Everyone has to be mischievious at somepoint in their lives.  She said the movie condoned doing bad things.

Another argument regarded what other companies are doing to market on the Harry Potter hype.  Apparently, she went into a bookstore and next to the Harry Potter display was a "Teach Yourself WICCA Kit For Teenagers."  The kit came with a spell book and your own alter.  They had a screenshot and the thing looked like Barbie's Witchcraft kit, it was so cheesy.  A Oujia board is scarier than the kit.  Enter the Oujia board argument.

The last part of the argument was against Scholastic Books publishing the series.  I guess Scholastic distributes many of the books schools use for their reading list.  Many teachers are using the books to get kids hooked on reading so they are showing up in the classrooms.  She argues that schools are forcing a type of religion on her kids.  This is where I think she loses her argument.  You can't argue against a book for being immoral and against religious beliefs saying kids should be taught religious values and then argue that the book is teaching kids religious beliefs in school.  She contradicts herself and discrimminates against other religions that are not the same as hers.

In the end, all I could picture was one of SNL's Churchlady interviews with Dana Carvey.  The opening dialogue, who is the president of Scholastic?  Could it possibly be Saaaatan?

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## Shwing

I'm not into wrestling, but as you brought it up...

Last week, Ed Whalen died in Calgary.  If you ever watched Stampede Wrestling, or know who the Hart family is, you probably know who Wailin' Ed Whalen is.  Funeral is today.

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## Steve Machol

I just thought I'd mention that the first time I saw the title of this thread 'Defending Harry', I wondered what Harry Jilson had done now!   :Eek:

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## hcjilson

I thought exactly the same thing!!! :D 
hj

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## Darris Chambless

Hello all,

There is one simple truth to all of this with regard to Harry Potter and that is that it's just a book. I don't recall any real Hub Bub when The Hobbit came out and it's full of magic, wizards and witches. Stephen King writes about "evil" in just about every book he's ever written. They are only books and fiction at that.

The problem lies in the failure of the parents to teach the children the difference between reality and fiction and therefore the children have difficulty discerning between the two. Why do you think they cut all the violence out of Bugs Bunny and The Road Runner? Because children watching began to think that you could jump off of a cliff get up and walk away after the fact. But was that the fault of the cartoon? Nope. It was the failure of the parents to teach something so simple "It's just a cartoon and its not real. Falling off a cliff can hurt you badly or even kill you."

A failure of parents to teach the basics has created the very melle`that they are so concerned about. People don't want to admit that they, themselves might be the problem.

So the best way (in the event that this should come up for you again) to handle a debate of this nature is to look those "against" right in the eyes and say "IT'S A FICTIONAL STORY BOOK!!! The only way children could be misguided by it is if they weren't getting the guidiance at home to begin with."

It's things such as this that reaffirm my loathing for stupidity ;)

Take care and I hope you never have to encounter idiocy such as this again (It will unfortunately happen though so be prepared :)

Darris C.

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## ioconnell

> _Originally posted by Steve Machol_ 
> *I just thought I'd mention that the first time I saw the title of this thread 'Defending Harry', I wondered what Harry Jilson had done now!  *


:bbg:  I thought the same thing Steve, I just pictured Harry giggleing like a little schoolgirl as he went ahead and pressed the do not press button refered to in an earlier thread

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## Night Train

One person said the POtter series "Blurred the Lines of Morality". I responded by saying that Just this week OCEANS ELEVEN came out. A movie where all the protagonists are thieves and we are supposed to cheer for them. I suggested that THAT is blurring the lines of Morality. Harry Potter has a Clearly Good side against a Clearly Bad side. Its not Blurry at all. I went on to say that Of all the four books, I could only remember 2 or 3 Possible Profanitys (Very Vague Ones) And I asked the Class Which Movies theyve seen this year could make that same claim.

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## Joann Raytar

Darris,

You are correct.  I also believe that some folks, even children, are just a bit loopy.  Recall all of the hubub about Dungeons and Dragons; albeit that was a roll playing game, so it involved a bit more interaction on the part of the players.  I believe there was a story circulating out there about a teenager who killed another because he had taken on the personality of one of the characters.  I don't recall if that was truth or urban legend.  Personally, D & D was great and involved a ton of creativity to run a really good game.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone took the game a little bit too close to heart.

I have seen parents who would probably forget their kids names if they weren't written down in their Day Timers somewhere.  There are also parents who think parenting is something you get out of a self help book and haven't got a clue about teaching kids basic human behavior.  If a kids on his own when it comes to values then who knows what source he will use to learn values from.  On the other hand a kid who has piety and virtue choaked down his or her throat will also find an alternate source of education.

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## Darris Chambless

Okay,

I have read "Harry Potter and The Sorceror's Stone" and I can now say that people against the contents of this book have not READ the book themselves. So what does that tell us? That IGNORANCE is alive and doing quite well in this world. I found the story very intriguing and actually had more morals than other stories I've either read or seen on the big and little screens.

In my opinion the story had many good lessons for children. It didn't encompas witchcraft or even magic. What it did was use a fantasy setting to teach lessons and hardships that we all face while growing up and how to deal with and understand them.

We've all faced bullies, overcome adversity, been embarassed, gotten in trouble for both noble and not so noble reasons, talked back to our parents, teachers and friends, made friends, made enemies, and wished for things that were out of our reach. I think the story did a good job of showing how different people deal with all these things. I don't think you could keep a childs attention by using an everyday setting as it would probably prove boring to a child. So the author spiced it up with witches, ghosts and Sorcerors, so what. I think some of these people just have a little too much time on their hands and the others just haven't complained about enough things lately. Either way it's a completely rediculous arguement.

I find these arguements very similar to those given for "The Last Temptation of Christ." As for movies it was (IMO) what I expect Jesus was really like. A guy that the people could relate to. A non pretentious kind of guy. I heard the arguements of sacrilage at the ending and I'm sorry but it just wasn't. I saw it as the final attempt by the Devil to make Jesus change his mind, but Jesus refused even while suffering on the cross. The whole story seemed to follow the stories in the bible very well. There was just no way to argue it being sacrilageous without looking like a fool.

Anyway that's my take on Harry Potter,

Darris C.

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## Homer

many people are afraid of the Religious Fundamentalist Right - they are scarrier than anything in Harry Potter.

A few years, when I was a boy, someone said that one of the best ways to reduce auto accidents would to be to take every car off of the road that was not paid for.    Might work!   More so today!

If we applied the same rule to commentary, opinion and argument on books that people have not read, ther'd be a lot less debate - particularlly in the church.

Homer

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## Maria

The general rule of thumb with these people seems to be,"If it's enjoyable by non-Christians, then it's wrong."

The far-right Christians just have this vague notion that they're supposed to disapprove of everything, because fun is synonymous with sin. The knock-on effect is that they can't find out for themselves if the stuff is sinful or not, just in case it is, and then they've exposed themselves to sin. The further effect is that they become rather pious and holier-than-thou, because of all the disapproving. Consequently, they are very boring.

Pointing out that, given where Jesus lived, he was certainly black, and in fact bore a much closer resemblence to Ice-T than to the white-skinned, blue eyed, Robert Powell-type Jesus adorning the walls of their home, is always an amusing way to shut them up when they start going on about how Harry Potter is Satanism in 4 doses . :)

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## marblez

i have a dear friend who unfortunately for all us(her friends)have gone to the far right in the religous sense.  She sent me a email about how bad Harry Potter was and that  these books should be baned in public schools.  I know for a fact she has not even looked at them, much read them.  It frightens me that a woman, who's husband defends our country believes in censorship.  I have now read 2 of the books and hope to get the other two for Christmas.  I can see the images in my head and would hope the every child could get the same opportunity as me.  The is good and evil in the books and in real life, but like it has been said it is fiction. and fiction only.


My answer to this debate is 

Go Harry Go
Christina

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## Joann Raytar

Maria,

I think you may have brought an interesting point up by mentioning Jesus.

Many cultures would construe his miracles as magic.  If we follow the extremists' moral codes then the New Testament would fall into the same category as Harry Potter.  You know, Jesus hanging out with Mary Magdeline, the prostitute, and multiplying the fish and bread.  He even went into the temple and tossed over the money changers' counters; not exactly a peaceful demonstration that time.  Jesus' rising from the dead and appearing to his disciples would probably have some folks believing he was a witch.

If folks knew many years ago what they know now about Jesus he probably wouldn't be the popular entity he is now.  Archeologists have found a tremendous amount of evidence pointing to the what you just mentioned about his race and he also seems to have had more of a politically motivated mind than most would believe.  He still did everythind for the cause of God, he just wasn't as simple and shallow as folks would want us to believe.  In fact, I firmly believe that we all may be up a creek at the second coming of Christ.  I don't think folks will recognize what he is up to.  Poplular society will probably either throw him in a pshychiatric hospital, jail or kill him if he comes back to one of the more violent cultures.  What I am trying to say is unless Jesus comes back as a televangelist, most of those extreme right fundamentalists wouldn't know Christ if he showed up tomorrow.

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## Homer

If this Jesus would appear today doing the "magical" things he is reported to have done some years ago and would  continue to associate with prostitutes and aids victums he would be called a false teacher by those who claim to be right.

When or if Messiah does appear to deliver His people, I think that he will have to lift us all out of the same gutter - there won't be any little armies of religous people helping Him clean the rest of us up.

But, now would be a good time for Messiah to come.........

Homer

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## Darris Chambless

Hello everyone,

In referrence to the whole Jesus thing, I too have always had a problem with the way he has been depicted both in story, TV shows, movies and pictures. Jesus wasn't a white guy with blonde hair and a red beard as is so often shown in the good old US of A. Although Willam DuFoe did do the truest-to-form depiction of what I believe Jesus was "like" he's not what I picture Jesus looking like. Those that haven't seen "The Last Temptation of Christ" I do recommend it.

Jesus character is serious when he needs to be, almost tyranical in certain instances, emotional almost to a fault and a world class partier with a lot to say. The parables used to set the points he's trying to get across aren't just thrown in as a part of his way of speaking, but more as a way to get the attention of his followers to see just how much they understood about what was going on. He was a fantastic orator and could keep the attention of the crowds of followers he would speak to at different cities, not unlike Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Whether you're a believer or not I think that after seeing this movie all would agree that Willam pulled off the most realistic portrayal of Jesus, even though the churches tried to ban the movie altogether and discredited it at every turn.

Take care everyone,

Darris C.

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## Jubilee

We have been having this debate at work recently since the news had a story about the books being burned in some town in Texas. Two of my fellow managers are very much int hat religious right wing, and in fact one of them is a former minister. The other home schools.

The debate started with me saying I can't believe people are being this crazy over a series of books. That if people would read them before jumping to conclusions, they could see that the books were harmless fiction.

This made the other two cringe. It seems that they are not harmless cause evil things such as witchcraft is real and it is even practiced in such so called relegions as Wicca. Who even call themselves witches and warlocks.

I then began my little spiel with , 1) All the Wiccans I know are not satanic. The majority of them are more naturists, believing in the powers of Mother Earth and using herbs, etc. 2) why is it that Harry Potter is evil cause there is witchcraft, and traditional fantasy which involves, elves, wizards, mages, etc are all ok (except Dungeons and Dragons) ..A movie which has several witches in in, the Wizard of Oz is considered one of the best familiy movies of all time.. and shows such as Sabrina the Teenage witch and BeWitched are syndicated shows that broadcast at least 3 times a day on Nick at nite, the WB, and other networks..

The difference to them is that fact that the books are set in a school of witchcraft so by talking of the courses, the supplies, etc, it is instructing our children in the dark arts..

I tried to explain that the stories aren't on how he becomes a wizard it is more on how he finds strength in himself to be himself. He was the kid picked on all of his life, who according to the people who raised him, was nothing but an ingrateful piece of trash, and then learns that he is not only part of this other realm, but a celebrity in it. And the stories are along the lines of parables on learning to decipher what is good and evil, right and wrong, and how to just get along and get through school and home life. That all it did was take kids to a fantasy setting that is more appealing then the reality of today...but the school might as well be a private boarding school, any set of abusive parents would do, and instead of wizardry, some other talent that ends up rescuing him...she just wrote of one that struck a chord with a lot of people, and not just kids..

They still stick to its the means and not just the message that matters and she is doing it through the evil of witchcraft. I told them that I have not heard anyting on the news about an increase in demand for cauldrons, magic wands, rats, owls, frogs, brooms, or the like. And Harry has nothing in there about satanic incantations, sacrifices (except his mom's ultimat sacrifice that saved him), nor any relgious references to anything...

but it is still an evil book cause it teaches are kids to be interested in witchcraft...

I told them that I believe that sheltering is not the key, communication with our kids are. My parents never sheltered me... Heck I remember watching movies such as Phantasm and Death wish when I was around 5 years old. I never thought such movies were real. As a teen I watched Serpent and the Rainbow, Witchboard, etc...never did I think that ooh..this is really powerful stuff and I want to do it.. Being exposed to all of this stuff at a young age, if I held their positions to be true, I should be one messed up psycho...but I never have had a ticket or been charged with anything. Heck I have never been Drunk...
But I guess I do live in sin, and bite my fingernails...so I am not perfect by no means :)  I also know of ones who were sheltered their entire childhood that couldn't function as adults cause there was too many choices or they were too naive for the real world..Either they got taken advantage of, or they rebelled quite hard when they got some air under their wings..

We got slammed after that and having only 20 pairs of glasses being processed at one point in time, the debate sort of ended at there. What worries me is that the most outspoken one was one who actually had read most of the first book...of course he also doesn't let the kids watch tv either..they get books and radio..And only the books he and his wife approves..

Of course I guess one of the funny things to note is..the more of a fuss that is raised about Harry, the more kids will want to read it to see what the fuss is all about...

Cassandra

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## Night Train

Well, I certainly hope that those two individuals do not allow their children to eat potato chips and I hope all snack foods are banned from and burned in that school. After all...we wouldnt want to introduce our children to poor health and obesity. AUUUUGH!:angry: :angry: :angry: What is it with these morons!

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## Darris Chambless

Night Train said:

"What is it with these morons!"

It just so happens I have an answer for this rhetorical question :) People seek security in some form or fashion. Many seek that security in the form of religion (which I'm not saying is a bad thing by any stretch) but those that lack motivation, a spine and or ambition tend to sink all of their thought into religious beliefs given by their chosen religious faction. People do this because they can't function on their own and need to be given thoughts to think so that they feel as if they are in control and can relate to something.

It is not unlike psychology students that only take Psych 101. They will end up diagnosing themselves with so many problems that they will become the very thing they are studying. The problem there is that until and unless they go through the rest of their Psych classes they won't have the rest of the story. In otherwords they know just enough about the subject to be dangerous to themselves as well as others. The same holds true with those that oppose things such as Harry Potter. 

Because of peoples beliefs they will avoid things that go against those beliefs, but they don't want to be left out of the loop when it comes to subjects that gain so much attention. The only way they can talk about subjects such as these is to be the "Con" debaters of the subject while we are the "Pro" debaters. They want to be envolved but alas can only do it from a position of ignorance that they can't get past. To them reading and understanding the subject would be the same as rejecting their own belief which isn't true but they believe it to be true.

Always remember: You can't argue with ignorance. The reason is because there is no point to be made to either side. One side is rooted in facts of the matter while the other side is rooted in perception.

Take care.

Darris C.

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