# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Nothing annoys me more....

## optilady1

I just sold a pair of glasses to a 23 year old, and upon asking her how she would like to pay for them, she asked me if I could bill her parents.  I explained that sure I could, but I wouldn't order them until they were paid for, and so with a huff and a puff, she handed over her card.  She then laughed and said she'd just have her mom pay her back.  

Everyday, I answer phone calls from parents ordering their adult childrens' contacts, scheduling appointments, and inquiring how much it would cost to purchase their precious baby some glasses.  

In addition, I listen to more and more parents complain about paying for their 23-26 year old 'kids' apartments, cars, auto insurance and cell phones.  

How is this teaching kids any responsibility?  I know that when we do well we want to provide for our families, but when does it become a hindrance to their growth as productive members of society?  I've had some sort of job since 9th grade, paid for my first POS car at 16, supplemented my college tuition with two jobs and paid for my first apartment at 19.  I've worked full time since I was 19, along with going to school full time.  

I have two daughters, and I'm not going to say that I would want them to struggle the way I did, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let them grow up thinking that other people are going to just give them everything.  

Ok, end of my rant.  I apologize if I've offended anyone.

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## Diane

Annie,

No offense here, dear.  I agree with you 100%.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who want, want, want, and seem to think that having more makes them a better person.  Giving to children, who could work for it themselves, will only enable them to want more things, and less of what is truly important.  That increases the "I'm entitled" mentality as well.  Once the parents stop enabling, someone else does it.  Don't get me started.

Diane

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## Johns

I have seen Iraqi war veterans come in and when I give them the information form to fill out, they hand it to their mothers!  I think as soon as they come home, they (children in general) they revert back to babies, and expect their mothers to nurture them. 

 In their defense, none of this would happen if the parents didn't allow it.

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## chip anderson

Ain't you heard, you now responsible for thier medical bills and insurance til they 26 reguardless of how well they are able to take care of themselves.

Chip

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## braheem24

26 allows you to stay in school and learn how to spell instead of making a mockery of the English language on message boards, it has nothing to do with enabling.

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## optilady1

I understand that you can cover your children's health insurance if they are in college until they are 26.  That doesn't mean you also need to be their personal secretary/maid/cook/accountant/bank.  

My mother used to make me make phone calls to make my own appointments or simply order a pizza when I was very young.  A 20 year old should be able to schedule their own doctor's appointment or order their own contacts.

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## finefocus

> Ain't you heard, you now responsible for thier medical bills and insurance til they 26 reguardless of how well they are able to take care of themselves.
> 
> Chip


It will be possible to maintain them on your insurance, not mandatory that you cover everything for them. How is that a bad thing?

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## chip anderson

Fine Focus:  Yep!

Now if you want something to bother you more just wait until you start making prosthetic eyes,  clear 2 hours for a medicaid patient (aprox. 1/4 usual and customary fee) and the patient repeatedly no-shows for the appt.

Chip

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## finefocus

If I had the money that Medical owes me from 30 years ago, I'd be as rich as Johns. But that doesn't relate to students staying on their parents' health insurance.

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## Johns

> I understand that you can cover your children's health insurance if they are in college until they are 26.  That doesn't mean you also need to be their personal secretary/maid/cook/accountant/bank.



Actually, they DON'T have to even be in school. They don't have to be ANYTHING except under 26 years old.  This is from the White House web site, (so it's probably not accurate) but here's what they say:


_"The Affordable Care Act requires plans and issuers that offer coverage to children on their parents’ plan to make the coverage available until the adult child reaches the age of 26. Many parents and their children who worried about losing health insurance after the children moved away from home or graduated from college no longer need to worry.
The Departments of Health and Human Services, Labor, and Treasury have issued regulations implementing the Affordable Care Act by expanding dependent coverage for adult children up to age 26. Key elements include:
• Coverage Extended to More Children. The goal of this new policy is to cover as many young adults under the age of 26 as possible with the least burden. Plans and issuers that offer dependent coverage must offer coverage to enrollees’ adult children until age 26, even if the young
adult no longer lives with his or her parents, is not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, or is no
longer a student. There is a transition for certain existing group plans that generally do not have to
provide dependent coverage until 2014 if the adult child has another offer of employer-based
coverage aside from coverage through the parent. The new policy providing access for young
adults applies to both married and unmarried children, although their own spouses and children do
not qualify."


_"Worry" is what motivated me to join the Air Force when I couldn't find a decent job. It's also what caused me to go back to school, and often still motivates people to keep pushing to the next level.

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## optilady1

> Actually, they DON'T have to even be in school. They don't have to be ANYTHING except under 26 years old. This is from the White House web site, (so it's probably not accurate) but here's what they say:
> 
> 
> _"The Affordable Care Act requires plans and issuers that offer coverage to children on their parents’ plan to make the coverage available until the adult child reaches the age of 26. Many parents and their children who worried about losing health insurance after the children moved away from home or graduated from college no longer need to worry.
> The Departments of Health and Human Services, Labor, and Treasury have issued regulations implementing the Affordable Care Act by expanding dependent coverage for adult children up to age 26. Key elements include:
> • Coverage Extended to More Children. The goal of this new policy is to cover as many young adults under the age of 26 as possible with the least burden. Plans and issuers that offer dependent coverage must offer coverage to enrollees’ adult children until age 26, even if the young
> adult no longer lives with his or her parents, is not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, or is no
> longer a student. There is a transition for certain existing group plans that generally do not have to
> provide dependent coverage until 2014 if the adult child has another offer of employer-based
> ...



Hm.  Ok.  I don't have an opinion on this health insurance that is backed by any factual knowledge.  

What I do know is I was poor growing up, so there was no option to have someone else carry my on their insurance plan until I got married.  So for two years I didn't have insurance but took advantage of my college health center, and then when I stopped going to that college, I got a full time job as a waitress to get crappy coverage, and worked part-time for my optometrist.  I was 19.  I also went to college.  It was hard.  I ended up really sick with mono because I was also supporting a leach of a boyfriend.  That is a whole different story best told another time.  

I have two soap box issues, this being one.  It drives me crazy every time I listen to a mother order contacts for their 24 year old employed child.  And then they complain to me about it.  Throw the bird out the nest already people!!!!!

Ok, that's the end of my rant.  I promise.   :Angel:

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## Judy Canty

And sometimes there are circumstances that are just none of our business.

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## chip anderson

But the the 24 old may have or be a leach of a boy-girl/friend.  Surely this is reason enough for the goverment or the taxpayers or mommie to step in.   And now we won't need mommies, we got Obamacare!  Isn't it wonderfull?

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## NCspecs

I guess I get annoyed too, with this scenario, but I have to admit, it's nice work if you can get it.

I work in an affluent area of town and this is a day-to-day scenario, hearing parent's whine and moan about the cost of putting their kids through Duke University all the while maintaining the "kid's" car payments, cell phones, credit cards, etc. I have to admit, I wish I'd had it so easy and that my folks were able to give me those kind of opportunities. These are the kids who end up with the high paying gigs after college because mommy and daddy know the "right" people. I have a cousin like this- the world is handed to her on a silver platter. Must be nice.

However, in the end, I can proudly display my education at the School of Hard Knocks to any employer by utilizing my critical thinking skills and ability to adapt to change. I'm also a "head down-keep working" kind of employee who is satified with a job well done and day's worth of hard but fruitful labor. If I had material expectations beyond my pay grade then I think I would be dissapointed and demoralized but my folks did gift me the ability to be happy with what I have and to manage a household frugally. Maybe they gave me more opportunities with "life lessons" than I realize. ;)

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## chip anderson

You know you can't accomplish anything without someone helping you.   Someone had to build the roads to where you work, someone had to build the bridges....

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## RT

> Ain't you heard, you now responsible for thier medical bills and insurance til they 26 reguardless of how well they are able to take care of themselves.


Not true.  It is only true when the child is employed by someone like Johns, who only hires part-timers, or an employer who does not offer group coverage.  My 23 year old daughter, who is gainfully employed full time, pays for her own health insurance premiums.  I would be paying her premiums _only_ if she worked for Johns, or a similar employer.  Your assertion that she is part of the problem is way off base.  But at least you didn't use the Uncle Remus dialect, for which Optiboarders all over the world are thankful.

_Until 2014, __grandfathered__ 
group plans do not have to offer dependent coverage up to age 26 if a young 
adult is eligible for group coverage outside their parents plan.

_But it almost doesn't matter.  As long as a young person is somehow paying premiums into the insurance system, either directly or indirectly through their parents, they are contributing to the available healthcare budget so that the unhealthy (and generally older) populace can be covered.  If my employer has a problem with my personal contribution toward my under-26 child's premiums, that is between me and my employer.  My employer can certainly stipulate that I pay a higher percentage of my dependents' healthcare premiums.  In some cases, having the extra dependents qualifies the employer for a better group rate, so it could be a complex equation as to the exact allocation of costs.

Optilady1's original rant was directed toward some young adults who display a sense of entitlement and a lack of responsibility.  There is no doubt that these coddled youngsters exist, just as some entitled and coddled oldsters exist, and they all are _worthy of comtept_.  However, as the proud parent of a ridiculously responsible young adult who pays her own premiums into the healthcare insurance system, I challenge the original post's stereotype.  The difference between an under-26 on her own insurance and one on my insurance is in no way a reflection of the personal qualities of the younger person, and may only be a reflection of the quality of the employer that she is able to find.  Phrase it as an economic issue (not enough jobs at employers with benefits), or a supply/demand issue (as long as people demand more an more expensive healthcare, the cost will rise), and not as an unfounded assault on the young.  The only way that health insurance works is for some people to pay more in premiums than they take out (young), so that people in need can take out more than they pay in (old).  I am comfortable that my family and my employer are holding up their end of that bargain.

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## Johns

> Not true.  It is only true when the child is employed by someone like Johns, who only hires part-timers


Fortunately, Optiboard has an archive feature so, if you ever want to go back and see what that post really said, you can:


http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...-and-Obamacare


Just because I haven't hired a full-timer since 2009 doesn't mean I got rid of all the full-timers that I've hired since 1985.  

(Oh, and by the way, I don't hire "children".)

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## SharonB

> Fine Focus:  Yep!
> 
> Now if you want something to bother you more just wait until you start making prosthetic eyes,  clear 2 hours for a medicaid patient (aprox. 1/4 usual and customary fee) and the patient repeatedly no-shows for the appt.
> 
> Chip


Been there - done that. Very frustrating @*%$^

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## CoolOptician

RT's Post:  (Lol, sorry, I screwed something up!)

"Optilady1's original rant was directed toward some young adults who display a sense of entitlement and a lack of responsibility.  There is no doubt that these coddled youngsters exist, just as some entitled and coddled oldsters exist, and they all are _worthy of comtept_.  However, as the proud parent of a ridiculously responsible young adult who pays her own premiums into the healthcare insurance system, I challenge the original post's stereotype.  The difference between an under-26 on her own insurance and one on my insurance is in no way a reflection of the personal qualities of the younger person, and may only be a reflection of the quality of the employer that she is able to find.  Phrase it as an economic issue (not enough jobs at employers with benefits), or a supply/demand issue (as long as people demand more an more expensive healthcare, the cost will rise), and not as an unfounded assault on the young.  The only way that health insurance works is for some people to pay more in premiums than they take out (young), so that people in need can take out more than they pay in (old).  I am comfortable that my family and my employer are holding up their end of that bargain."


I think 'stereotype' by and of it's nature is supposed to mean "a belief adopted that may or may not reflect things"....so we adapt our 'views' by what we experience.  That would mean that both view points more than likely have some credence to them, based upon the probability that Optilady1 would not take the time to 'rant' if she wasn't experiencing this a lot.  I'm assuming your basing your challenge on more than just your own child, as an example.

(grin!) If this forum is a 'case study' and we tallied up all of the 'cases' each of us could think of, THEN we'd know if we could accurately say this is a 'stereotype.'  Lol, I'll add mine.  I'd say my experience is 2/3 parented by people who 'do too much' and 1/3 taking care of themselves.  And some margin of error, in the blurred place in between.  Kids who are doing a lot, but still have more help than just doing it for themselves.  I grew up in the 70's, and it was a far different place as far as being 'responsible' for yourself growing up.  And I DO see the huge effect of us 'helicopter parents' who hover and fix things.  Lol, my favorite was the story of the college guy (whose mom came up to do his laundry at college), who met a new girl, and then emailed his mom that he 'didn't have time to check her out for sure to see if she'd be worth his time, so could you do it for me?'  Lol, some kind of opposite 'sponge-worthiness' I guess??!!

I also just finished 26 years of practicing in a primarily retirement town.  I could easily give you 15-20 stories of people in their 70's, who STILL take care of their children in their 40's!  One dear gentleman, who loved coming to talk with me, pounded on my counter and told me, "Do you know my 42 year old daughter has never bought her own car?"  I just smiled grimly.  I wanted to say, "And whose fault do you think that is??" (Of course, he was an excellent client so I could not.)  Cause here's the definite.  (smile) NOTHING makes a young person work harder, or figure out a way to do what they want, than LACK.  Yes, a belief in one's ability, growing up with a support system that helped you to know you could, all of those things are needed.  But if its handed to you, over and over again, eventually you actually start believing in yourself LESS.  It's the proverbial 'fine line' between a hand up and a hand out!

When we figure out where that line is......

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## NeaOptikiSA

Annie,
is US this issue is much better than here in Greece. You wonder for 26 years old over protection? Here in Greece 26 is a must-stay-with-my-parents age. Here family is much more close and united but from the prospective of individualism in the personal life of the kids this is a pain in the neck. 

If you leave from 18 years old from your parents home it is strange and mainly against the family! This doctrine has rotten our new generations. I believe that the Debt Crisis of Greece is mainly a generation crisis, where the 40s & 50s generations have promised to their kids a pleasant life without effort!!!!!

Thanx for the chance to give my point of view!

Angel

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## CoolOptician

> Annie,
> is US this issue is much better than here in Greece. You wonder for 26 years old over protection? Here in Greece 26 is a must-stay-with-my-parents age. Here family is much more close and united but from the prospective of individualism in the personal life of the kids this is a pain in the neck. 
> 
> If you leave from 18 years old from your parents home it is strange and mainly against the family! This doctrine has rotten our new generations. I believe that the Debt Crisis of Greece is mainly a generation crisis, where the 40s & 50s generations have promised to their kids a pleasant life without effort!!!!!
> 
> Thanx for the chance to give my point of view!
> 
> Angel


I have a step-father who is from Greece, and you are right, he has a very strong 'sense' of family, and doesn't understand many of the acts of 'individualism' that happen in our's.  (smile) Although he has been here for 30-40 years, he still makes and thinks others should make, choices and decisions for the family's betterment first.  Then their own if possible after.

In many ways though, I think that 'sense' of being eighteen and 'going out to make your way' is what has helped our country (from the past) to grow as an economic power.  Now, young people do think or are taught by 'caring parents' that they need to have 'everything just so' for going out into the world.  

I had some long-time patients (fairly wealthy, retired and moved over from Ft. Lauderdale area) who had two children.  As young adults, they provided 'everything' and even employed the son in their business.  The daughter married, move north, had kids, and then the marriage got in trouble.  These 'parents' in their mid-70's were still 'sending money' and providing benefits to the daughter and her kids, even while the daughter was in her early 40's (oh, and NOT working!).  When I asked the 75 year old mother, what HER parents did for her when she reached adulthood......she laughed and said, "I turned 18, and they had my clothes packed in a suitcase, waiting for me at the door!"  I replied that it must have helped her with something, because when we look at what she and her husband accomplished with their business, versus what their children did, it was drastically different!

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## opty4062

> I just sold a pair of glasses to a 23 year old, and upon asking her how she would like to pay for them, she asked me if I could bill her parents.  I explained that sure I could, but I wouldn't order them until they were paid for, and so with a huff and a puff, she handed over her card.  She then laughed and said she'd just have her mom pay her back.  
> 
> Everyday, I answer phone calls from parents ordering their adult childrens' contacts, scheduling appointments, and inquiring how much it would cost to purchase their precious baby some glasses.  
> 
> In addition, I listen to more and more parents complain about paying for their 23-26 year old 'kids' apartments, cars, auto insurance and cell phones.  
> 
> How is this teaching kids any responsibility?  I know that when we do well we want to provide for our families, but when does it become a hindrance to their growth as productive members of society?  I've had some sort of job since 9th grade, paid for my first POS car at 16, supplemented my college tuition with two jobs and paid for my first apartment at 19.  I've worked full time since I was 19, along with going to school full time.  
> 
> I have two daughters, and I'm not going to say that I would want them to struggle the way I did, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let them grow up thinking that other people are going to just give them everything.  
> ...



Going back to the original vent, I do agree that this is on the parents sometimes not being able to let go. I see it everyday too. It amazes me to call back a 20+yr old pt and have Mom or even Dad insist to "come with". No they can't fill out their own medical history because they don't know if they are allergic to any drugs or if they have any chronic conditions. Makes me wonder if they do their own school/college work too. "Helicopter parenting" I believe they call it. It's not just financial. It does the "child" more harm than good to not allow them to grow up. My 16 yr old daughter recently dated a boy a year older who had no idea how to order for himself at a fast food restaurant!

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## CoolOptician

> Going back to the original vent, I do agree that this is on the parents sometimes not being able to let go. I see it everyday too. It amazes me to call back a 20+yr old pt and have Mom or even Dad insist to "come with". No they can't fill out their own medical history because they don't know if they are allergic to any drugs or if they have any chronic conditions. Makes me wonder if they do their own school/college work too. "Helicopter parenting" I believe they call it. It's not just financial. It does the "child" more harm than good to not allow them to grow up. My 16 yr old daughter recently dated a boy a year older who had no idea how to order for himself at a fast food restaurant!


Can I 'smile' at this part???  Lol!  "My 16 yr old daughter recently dated a boy a year older who had no idea how to order for himself at a fast food restaurant!"  Wow....but maybe it will help his 'health' if he thinks he can't do that!  We've (as a culture) got to start really 'thinking' about what we are doing.  My son was two, when I had the 'aha' moment that MY struggle had helped to make me who I was....and if I wanted him to be as strong, I had to let him 'struggle' too.  I admit, I still probably helped both my kids a little more than I should, but they did get the overall gist.  They both put themselves thru college. (In first grade I told them their dad was old and they needed to work hard in school so they could get scholarships!)  And they both support themselves.  :-))

Between the stories you guys are telling that still happen with the young, and my 'patient' stories that started 20 years ago when those kids WERE young, but now still can't figure out how to do it for themselves, because those older parents are still enabling them......well, the retirement age will have to go up, because the younger generation isn't going to know how to DO anything.  Oh..cept party!

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## chip anderson

Don't that be what _everyone_ voted for in the last election?

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## Happylady

I personally am glad that my son isn't going to lose his insurance when he turns 22 this October. He's starting his last year of college next week. 

My daughter lost her insurance while she was in her senior year of college and found herself a high deductible plan just in case until she got a full time job and her own insurance.

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## Judy Canty

> Don't that be what _everyone_ voted for in the last election?


No, Chip...no it wasn't.

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## CoolOptician

> No, Chip...no it wasn't.


Yea, I agree with Judy here.....and while 'having a 22 year old on a parents insurance plan' has been brought up.....I really don't think that was the basis for the original rant.  Or the stories shared since.  Although, when I went back to school to finish my bachelors (less than ten years ago), part of positive aspect was I was able to obtain low cost health insurance coverage at an excellent rate, since I was a 'student.'  I think most people would not have a problem with that particular aspect of any 'health law changes' either way.  Adding a year to parental coverage, I mean.  

But to ignore what we see happening around us in regards to more (than we would like) young people (or not so young) and the level of them being responsible for one's self. Or learning to 'live within one's means' and what does and does not constitute a 'luxury' for young people nowadays, well I think we are all going to feel/see the detriment of that.  I don't know anyone, who isn't touched in some way (either a family member or other person one knows) with someone who has been given 'help' so much, that they no longer feel capable of doing it all for themselves any more.  I also think this is the basis of the 'education crisis' we have in our country.  So many young people have all they want, without very much effort, and are not taught by parents that if they really WANT to get ahead in life, it is going to take hard work, determination and some type of education (or paying attention in school).  Unfortunately, in our school district, they are at least a slight majority.  And they cover a wide-spread of parental economic spreads as well, middle class, poor, & better off.  Most come to school for 'social' reasons, and many parents have let themselves become so engrossed in their own 'attempt to earn' to buy the stuff to keep their kids happy, they are not making sure they reinforce the importance of learning in school, to their children.

Lol, not to digress even more, but in 04-05, I was told by a college psych professor that he was instructed by the administration to create a curriculum that would cause his students to perform so the average grade was a B+.  I was a little surprised that we no longer have a 'set amount of information' that was part of learning a subject, but instead the effect was he was 'dumbing down' classes so that with the poorer and poorer prepared students coming into college classes, he could still keep his 'average' grade being requested.  :-))  I wonder where the 'tipping point' occurs with this type of education?  Maybe many subjects, no big deal.  Uhm, but I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of occupations where we don't really want someone who 'squeaked' by learning just enough, factoring in his dumber classmates, to bring the average grade to a B+ to be taking care of OUR services.  Maybe even Opticianry?   :Unsure:

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## NeaOptikiSA

I do not understand what the insurance has to do with the young people. Why they have to lose the insurance if they are individuals?

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## CoolOptician

> I do not understand what the insurance has to do with the young people. Why they have to lose the insurance if they are individuals?


Uhm, silly American rules.  Lol, we have a lot of them!  Kids are insured thru their parents health insurance policies here.  I'm relying on my memory here, as my children are older, but I believe they could stay on the parent's policy thru the age of 21, if they were in school.  Then they had to get their 'own' policy as an adult.  This is an issue that has been 'evolving' here for a lot of years. (Not just young people on parent's policies, but 'universal healthcare', if 'care' should become 'rationed' etc, etc, etc.)  And everybody had a different way of looking at it.  Bottom line, it has to do with 'money' and people being responsible for themselves (in the way they care for their own health, etc).  Those two items do intersect one another a lot, anyway you look at it!  :Smile:

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## NeaOptikiSA

ok i understand, Here in Greece the limit is 26 if you have a kid that goes to University etc. Else he has to work on its own. Same rule but totally different age limit! i think that this is the whole picture of the culture difference on this issue!

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## CoolOptician

> ok i understand, Here in Greece the limit is 26 if you have a kid that goes to University etc. Else he has to work on its own. Same rule but totally different age limit! i think that this is the whole picture of the culture difference on this issue!


You know, I believe that was part of their discussion....I think with the latest Health Care Act that was passed a few years ago, they did raise the age to 26 for us too!

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## optilady1

This isn't an insurance issue!  Who could fault a parent for allowing a 21 year old on their insurance while going to college?  It's the blatant inability of grown adults to do basic things for themselves. If you are legal to drink, you should know how to order a pizza!  If your shoes cost more than a weeks worth of groceries, you shouldn't be relying on your mom to buy your contacts.  And for petes sake, if your video game collection could pay for a down payment on a house, buy your own damn pair of glasses!!!!!

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## Johns

> This isn't an insurance issue!  Who could fault a parent for allowing a 21 year old on their insurance while going to college?  It's the blatant inability of grown adults to do basic things for themselves. If you are legal to drink, you should know how to order a pizza!  If your shoes cost more than a weeks worth of groceries, you shouldn't be relying on your mom to buy your contacts.  And for petes sake, if your video game collection could pay for a down payment on a house, buy your own damn pair of glasses!!!!!


I have 12 year old Amish kids come in to my office, get an eye exam, pick out their glasses, whip out their OWN checkbooks, pay the bill with money they earn at their jobs, and walk out the door.  No big deal.

My neighbor (also Amish) is 24 years old, has 4 kids, a 2,800 sq. ft. house that's paid for. and he owns his own lumber mill.  Kids around here are expected to learn a trade, move out of the house, earn a living and support themselves.  They are given no other options, and expect none.

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## CoolOptician

> This isn't an insurance issue!  Who could fault a parent for allowing a 21 year old on their insurance while going to college?  It's the blatant inability of grown adults to do basic things for themselves. If you are legal to drink, you should know how to order a pizza!  If your shoes cost more than a weeks worth of groceries, you shouldn't be relying on your mom to buy your contacts.  And for petes sake, if your video game collection could pay for a down payment on a house, buy your own damn pair of glasses!!!!!


+100  and to Johns comment too!

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## optilady1

> I have 12 year old Amish kids come in to my office, get an eye exam, pick out their glasses, whip out their OWN checkbooks, pay the bill with money they earn at their jobs, and walk out the door.  No big deal.
> 
> My neighbor (also Amish) is 24 years old, has 4 kids, a 2,800 sq. ft. house that's paid for. and he owns his own lumber mill.  Kids around here are expected to learn a trade, move out of the house, earn a living and support themselves.  They are given no other options, and expect none.



My first two years of college I went to Messiah college, in Grantham Pa. We were required to take 3 foreign language classes, but could do a semester abroad for the third class. One option was three weeks with an Amish family, and I always regretted not getting to do it. I think the experience would have been really cool.

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