# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Costco's AR? How bad is it?

## Happylady

I am used to excellent AR like Crizal Avance and Crizal Alize. I have a friend who needs new glasses but my shop is too expensive for her. She is very short of money due to her husband being out of work and she is just working part time.

I know Costco uses the Ovation progressive. My friend's progressives right now are Ellipse. I think the Ovation will probably be OK.

She doesn't have AR now but I think she would really like it, if it's a good AR. Crap AR is just that. Is the AR from Costco decent or is it crap?

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## anthonyf1509

> I am used to excellent AR like Crizal Avance and Crizal Alize. I have a friend who needs new glasses but my shop is too expensive for her. She is very short of money due to her husband being out of work and she is just working part time.
> 
> I know Costco uses the Ovation progressive. My friend's progressives right now are Ellipse. I think the Ovation will probably be OK.
> 
> She doesn't have AR now but I think she would really like it, if it's a good AR. Crap AR is just that. Is the AR from Costco decent or is it crap?


Can I just ask why you cannot help a friend? I mean you can probably provide a superior product and service for the same price as costco and still not take a hit. You may not make alot of dollars on one job here but rather have that than sending her down the street cuz you're too expensive.

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## Wes

Perhaps not everyone is in a position to offer product at cost.

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## obxeyeguy

> I am used to excellent AR like Crizal Avance and Crizal Alize. I have a friend who needs new glasses but my shop is too expensive for her. She is very short of money due to her husband being out of work and she is just working part time.
> 
> I know Costco uses the Ovation progressive. My friend's progressives right now are Ellipse. I think the Ovation will probably be OK.
> 
> She doesn't have AR now but I think she would really like it, if it's a good AR. Crap AR is just that. Is the AR from Costco decent or is it crap?


I am probably wrong here, but isn't the ovation an Essilor lens?  If they get that great of a price on it from "E", there AR "crap" Kirkland coating may in fact be Avance or Alize as well.  Just thinking out loud...

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## anthonyf1509

> Perhaps not everyone is in a position to offer product at cost.


Wasn't saying it had to be done at cost, but simply that it's hard to believe that you ONLY offer Alize or Avance, or whatever is too expensive. I'm willing to bet that with a 40% discount or 50% discount you'd still make money and you can simply offer whatever Costco is going to supply, then you aren't in any position to lose money. Just explain to your friend that you are going to provide the services necessary to make it work.

I tell friends and even extended family members, who know that our premo products are sometimes too expensive, that they're still better off getting the 'step down' from me and not going somewhere else. they're not going to be able to provide the care we are.

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## pseudonym

All warehouse AR is crap. The only people who should buy it is people who will take extremely good care of it. Clean daily under lukewarm water from faucet with a gentle dishwashing product. Shake to get most of the water off, then use the microfiber cloth to blot off the  residual water. No exceptions wiping with a paper towel or shirt tail. Once that junk starts peeling, crazing, developing hairline cracks there is no stopping it. 

The Ovation is without doubt the worst progressive I've ever wasted money on. I had a 1.75 ADD when I bought it from Target. After I finished my first year of optical school, I took the glasses to the lab and asked someone with experience to verify  the PD and seg height. The glasses were made perfectly. The only problem was the clear reading zone was so small, I had to hunt for it every time I wanted to read something. Maybe if the seg height had been raised 1-2mm, it would have been better. As it was, it was never usable for anything but driving. 

Your knowledge could help her a lot. If you don't have access to an edger, would you consider opening an account at some place like Cherry Optical (lab is in the US) and help her choose something good? You have to pay in advance but they edge and they do POF. You probably have some frames around that you could let her have for little or nothing and could verify the job after it comes back.

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## Jubilee

I think what most people are missing is that when you work for someone else, you don't get to choose the policy or discount options.

As far as the ovation is concerned. I have fit many successfully with it over the years. While it isn't the best design on the market, it is functional for a lot of people. The AR on my parents' lenses have lasted them, and held up much better than the coatings they have had from Sears, etc. While Costco does have a one size fits all approach, they use licensed staff, and stand behind their product. I would definitely recommend them over the internet or most discounters.

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## braheem24

Are we bashing to make ourselves feel better?  Costco is very competitive, offers a decent product for a very good price.

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## anthonyf1509

I don't think there is anything wrong with costco either. If you are working for someone and don't have leeway then that's a different story. 
I too would recommend costco before internet, and they're best least expensive chain.

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## Chris Ryser

> *She doesn't have AR now but I think she would really like it, if it's a good AR. Crap AR is just that. Is the AR from Costco decent or is it crap?*



The only difference between crap AR and your good AR is the intermediate coating that provides a good adherance from the plastic lens to the SIO2 (silicone dioxide = glass). At the time, over 10 years ago, big E found a product in Japan that just did this. From then on the Crizal Family become the big champion and found it's religious followers that were totally blinded and became strong supporters and believers into the only good quality job available on the market.

Do you really believe that everybody else in the AR coating business makes crap as you say, or that they are at least doubtful ? Many or most of them have found the right solutions to produce good products. A strong company like Costco is promoting top quality items, if you like the company or not.

I am aware that you have to provide good coatings for the prices you charge for them in the retail end, it just bugs me to hear that some ECP has been selling the same product for ten years and can still call everything else maybe passable good or crap.

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## Barry Santini

> Are we bashing to make ourselves feel better?  Costco is very competitive, offers a decent product for a very good price.


+1!

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## Diane

Thank you.

Diane

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## Diane

> Are we bashing to make ourselves feel better? Costco is very competitive, offers a decent product for a very good price.


Thank you.

Diane

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## anthonyf1509

Crap AR.
This must have a soft brown color? Sometimes green? :)

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## pseudonym

> Are we bashing to make ourselves feel better?  Costco is very competitive, offers a decent product for a very good price.


Pretty hard to bash from below. As Chris says, Costco is #1 in customer satisfaction. I work in a competing warehouse.

 AR in warehouse retail is what it is. Unless the buyer is willing to take immaculate care of it, the AR will cause more problems than it solves in the long run. Viewing the road through light scatter caused by crazed coating at night is both unsafe and unfun.

I don't know what Costco's lens choices are, but my warehouse has bad, better, and good. Ovation: bad.

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## Happylady

> Perhaps not everyone is in a position to offer product at cost.


I can get her a pair of glasses at full wholesale plus 20% but that's not cheap. Costco has poly transition progressives with AR for $160 a pair, that's less then my cost. I've used Ovation in the past and haven't had problems with it but haven't personally worn it. But their AR has me concerned. I hate bad AR.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I hate bad AR.
> *


I hate bad food, ......................can even tell ahead when smelling it. I also hate bad stuff, specially when it is expensive, but then I look into it and want to find out why it is bad and can explain why it is so. who makes it and so forth...............

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## braheem24

> I hate bad food


That's the french in you.  Food and A/R is your specialty, Don't expect anymore compliments :D

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## Lee Prewitt

I can assure you that the AR at Costco is not crap!  Costco now does it's own AR and they went to all the major producers and independants and did extensive evaluations.  The independant company they chose has been doing AR for longer than most big vendors.  Their AR is a dip coated process. In fact, I imagine that with all the technology deals that the independant has made, they likely are now the largest AR vendor in the country.  Recommend with confidence.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Their AR is a dip coated process. In fact, I imagine that with all the technology deals that the independant has made, they likely are now the largest AR vendor in the country.  Recommend with confidence.
> *



Thank you Lee.......................I needed some help. I do not really care who does it or how it is done, i am just tired of hearing that only one product is good and everything else is crap. Even your statement tahat Costco is the largest vendor of AR is impressing and disprooves many of these posts.

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## Lee Prewitt

What I meant was the the independant company is probably the largest producer of AR.  Costco sure does a lot too.  I agree Chris, there are many good and great AR out there that are not from the Big E (Crizal is a great AR but it is not the only one).

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## Wes

There's a common misconception among many on this board that the Big Boxes ONLY sell crap, and that no one working there ever knows what they're doing.

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## Fezz

> There's a common misconception among many on this board that the Big Boxes ONLY sell crap, and that no one working there ever knows what they're doing.


*+1!!*

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## kat

+1 to the last 3. E is not the end all and be all of AR, they are just the best marketers of AR.

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## Happylady

> I can assure you that the AR at Costco is not crap!  Costco now does it's own AR and they went to all the major producers and independants and did extensive evaluations.  The independant company they chose has been doing AR for longer than most big vendors.  Their AR is a dip coated process. In fact, I imagine that with all the technology deals that the independant has made, they likely are now the largest AR vendor in the country.  Recommend with confidence.



Thank you. Do you work there? I never said the AR at Costco was crap, I said I didn't know.

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## Lee Prewitt

No, I do not work for Costco.  I used to work for the AR company.  All I am saying is that your friend can get the AR and it will be a high quality product.

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## pseudonym

> No, I do not work for Costco.  I used to work for the AR company.  All I am saying is that your friend can get the AR and it will be a high quality product.


...if she takes care of it. I started in eyeglass repair. I saw a lot of AR crazing, peeling, cracking and heard a lot of I bought it at Costco, Sam's Club, Target, Walmart etc. etc. People who get their glasses repaired for 3, 4, 5, 6 years are not really a scientific sample, I know.

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## ilanh

What I don't understand is how Costco provides such rapid service, especially for progressive fitting. My optician spends an average of 20 minutes or more with each client. She helps them with frames, counsels them on options, fits them carefully, dispenses etc. This increases our cost of each sale but is part of "what sets us apart". I've done some industrial espionage at Costco and it seems as if the average sale takes much much less time. I'm almost envious at how quickly they do this and frankly skeptical at how accurate they are. Obviously they wouldn't be able to have such low prices if they spent a half an hour with each patient.

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## Happylady

> What I don't understand is how Costco provides such rapid service, especially for progressive fitting. My optician spends an average of 20 minutes or more with each client. She helps them with frames, counsels them on options, fits them carefully, dispenses etc. This increases our cost of each sale but is part of "what sets us apart". I've done some industrial espionage at Costco and it seems as if the average sale takes much much less time. I'm almost envious at how quickly they do this and frankly skeptical at how accurate they are. Obviously they wouldn't be able to have such low prices if they spent a half an hour with each patient.


I think at Costco the people usually pick out their own frames with little or no help from the optician. There aren't a lot of choices there as far as lenses so I imagine that it's easy to adjust and measure each person in 10 minutes or less.

Though I did notice my Costco is now selling Drivewear lenses.

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## LensNinja

The main problem with their AR is its laid over a factory scratch coat that may or may not let it bond well, Ive seen them last and Ive senn them sepperate in three months. Ovations are ok but I wouldn go below an 18 seg. BTW OptiSource makes an awsome AR remover any lab should have.

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## RCB1602

> I can assure you that the AR at Costco is not crap! Costco now does it's own AR and they went to all the major producers and independants and did extensive evaluations. The independant company they chose has been doing AR for longer than most big vendors. Their AR is a dip coated process. In fact, I imagine that with all the technology deals that the independant has made, they likely are now the largest AR vendor in the country. Recommend with confidence.


Hi Lee Just a question for you is there anywhere else that I may get information on the AR.  As someone who recently passed the ABO, I know we used to use Vivixx. Is that still true or is this a different brand (i.e. Kirkland Signature A/R?)

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## Lee Prewitt

> Hi Lee Just a question for you is there anywhere else that I may get information on the AR. As someone who recently passed the ABO, I know we used to use Vivixx. Is that still true or is this a different brand (i.e. Kirkland Signature A/R?)


I think it would be safe to say that you already have the information  :Wink: !

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## LensNinja

I agree with Lee, the info is rite here although I must say that in my opinion the best AR  be it outdated or what have you is still Alize by Crizal, it cleans best, it has the best hydrophobe,best anti static, and best scratch resistance, And a 2 year unconditional warranty under most dealers. Not to hype it but go with what does the best job
 :Ninja:

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## Chris Ryser

> *I agree with Lee, the info is rite here although I must say that in my opinion the best AR  be it outdated or what have you is still Alize by Crizal, it cleans best, it has the best hydrophobe,best anti static, and best scratch resistance, And a 2 year unconditional warranty under most dealers.* *Not to hype it but go with what does the best job
> *


.........................it has the largest and most powerful advertising for years and a lot of their re-sellers and users have been brainwashed into strong believers. They are all made with the same base material which is SIO2 (silicone dioxide).

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## William Walker

To help the original poster with their question - the Vivix coating is a very good coating and Costco offers it at a great price.  Working in Costco optical for six years, I can attest that it holds up very well - it is not a cheap budget level coating.  (To be transparent - I do not work for them now)

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## FullCircle

> .........................it has the largest and most powerful advertising for years and a lot of their re-sellers and users have been brainwashed into strong believers. They are all made with the same base material which is SIO2 (silicone dioxide).



+1000

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## Happylady

> To help the original poster with their question - the Vivix coating is a very good coating and Costco offers it at a great price.  Working in Costco optical for six years, I can attest that it holds up very well - it is not a cheap budget level coating.  (To be transparent - I do not work for them now)


Thank you for the information. I looked up the Vivix coating and it looks like it is not the top AR offered by the company, there are a couple that are better. I am guessing the Vivix would be similar to regular Crizal Easy rather then the Alize or Avance?

I find that regular Crizal holds up well and is scratch resistant enough but needs cleaning a lot more often the Avance within a very short time.

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## ilanh

I've noticed over the years that many of my patients have been adamant about not being fit with progressives because "I've tried them and I hated them".  Most of these cases have "tried" progressives dispensed in big box retailers such as Costco, Walmart or Sears where no attention was given to choosing a proper frame, the fitting process took 5 minutes and there was no hand-holding or adjustments in the initial weeks when problems were experienced.  Yes, money was refunded or bifocals dispensed instead but the patients were turned off to progressives permanently.  Whenever I hear from a patient about how much they hated progressives I ALWAYS ask them where they got them from.  THerefore, I'm not just speculating on this issue but feel fairly confident that Costco's non-adapt rate is very high indeed.  In my practice non-adapt is well under 10% (possibly 5%).  We go to enormous lengths to pick a suitable frame, fit it meticulously, do any post-dispensing adjustments needed and encourage the stamina to undergo the adaptation period.  Most of our patient cannot imagine not wearing progressives.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I agree with Lee, the info is rite here although I must say that in my opinion the best AR  be it outdated or what have you is still Alize by Crizal, it cleans best, it has the best hydrophobe,best anti static, and best scratch resistance, And a 2 year unconditional warranty under most dealers. Not to hype it but go with what does the best job
> *


If  Mr XYZ having won the Powerball at $150,000,000, would purchase some last model Satis or top class other equipment, hire a 10 years expirience coating lab executive away from Essilor at double his present salary and using the products and reproduce the exact formulas of the Essilor ARs, would you sing the same halleluhia for the XYZ coatings?

Most probably not.....................you would say that he has to prove first for a 2-3 year period of abuse by consumers that they are holding up as well as the original, before you would touch them. All explaining to sell the product which is as good as the ones you like, would be talking into the wind. There is always something that might be doing an equivalent job or maybe even better.

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## Happylady

> If  Mr XYZ having won the Powerball at $150,000,000, would purchase some last model Satis or top class other equipment, hire a 10 years expirience coating lab executive away from Essilor at double his present salary and using the products and reproduce the exact formulas of the Essilor ARs, would you sing the same halleluhia for the XYZ coatings?
> 
> Most probably not.....................you would say that he has to prove first for a 2-3 year period of abuse by consumers that they are holding up as well as the original, before you would touch them. All explaining to sell the product which is as good as the ones you like, would be talking into the wind. There is always something that might be doing an equivalent job or maybe even better.


Huh? What are you trying to say?

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## Chris Ryser

> *Huh? What are you trying to say?
> *




If I would become an AR coating company, making noticeably way better products than your beloved cryzal series or anything else, I could not survive when I had to deal with customers that are thinking and working on a one way track.

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## MakeOptics

> If I would become an AR coating company, making noticeably way better products than your beloved cryzal series or anything else, I could not survive when I had to deal with customers that are thinking and working on a one way track.


I'm here to make money not rate products, if you create a demand I'll supply your product.  Drop a couple mil in advertising to make consumers want your product and I'm all ears, but until then your just a knock off coating company.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I'm here to make money not rate products, if you create a demand I'll supply your product.  Drop a couple mil in advertising to make consumers want your product and I'm all ears, but until then your just a knock off coating company.
> 
> *



Thank you........................thats exactly the answer I expected and it seems to reflect a general opinion. 

Anybody that does not drop a couple of mil into advertising can do the best job in the world but will starve to death.

Besides that I would judge you not as the best sales person as you rely on consumer demand not a as a specialised optician that sells what is really good because you are qualified to judge it. You rely on the ones that cyber-exite the consumers.

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## Happylady

The reason I like Crizal Avance has nothing to do with it's advertising and everything to do with how I have seen it perform. I have also used and sold many other ARs and nothing I have tried has the long term cleanability of Crizal Avance (and Crizal Sapphire). I've used Seiko, Zeiss, and Hoya AR. I've used Essilor's standard AR; Sharpview (which is awful).

I would honestly LOVE to find a cheaper AR that can be used on more lenses that works as well as Crizal Avance.

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## anthonyf1509

> The reason I like Crizal Avance has nothing to do with it's advertising and everything to do with how I have seen it perform. I have also used and sold many other ARs and nothing I have tried has the long term cleanability of Crizal Avance (and Crizal Sapphire). I've used Seiko, Zeiss, and Hoya AR. I've used Essilor's standard AR; Sharpview (which is awful).
> 
> I would honestly LOVE to find a cheaper AR that can be used on more lenses that works as well as Crizal Avance.


Avance is nice. But Sharpview is Alize+ w/o TD2 process. It's worked extremely well as a less expensive alt. with great cleanability and visual clarity. Not to mention same warranty.
Everybody has different experiences and preferences. 
I honestly can't tell difference between Avance and Alize+ so why not that as an alternative?

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## LENNY

> But Sharpview is Alize+ w/o TD2 process.


I dont think there are ANY progressives made by E that do not have TD2 on them!

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## anthonyf1509

> Originally Posted by anthonyf1509
> 
> 
> But Sharpview is Alize+ w/o TD2 process.
> 
> 
> I dont think there are ANY progressives made by E that do not have TD2 on them!


Wasn't saying PALs only, but I don't think that's true. If it is then I'll admit nice scam.

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## Happylady

> Avance is nice. But Sharpview is Alize+ w/o TD2 process. It's worked extremely well as a less expensive alt. with great cleanability and visual clarity. Not to mention same warranty.
> Everybody has different experiences and preferences. 
> I honestly can't tell difference between Avance and Alize+ so why not that as an alternative?


I got Sharpview on a pair of glasses for my husband. I was using a coupon for a progressive that I couldn't use Crizal on so I tried it. I was hoping to find a cheaper but still good AR. 

Now I understand they have improved Sharpview since I got it last less then 2 years ago but it was horrible at the time. It scratched very easily and got dirty quickly and was hard to clean.

As for Alize and Avance, according to Essilor Avance is twice as scratch resistant. But where I notice the difference is long term cleanability. After a number of months Alize starts to get hard to clean and stay clean while Avance is still easy to clean after 2 years. New they are both good.

I do think Alize is a decent AR, it's certainly much better then Sharpview!

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## Lee Prewitt

> I would honestly LOVE to find a cheaper AR that can be used on more lenses that works as well as Crizal Avance.


I have been telling you all this for years!  There are alternatives out there. iCoat is one such company. (I know, I know, I don't work there anymore but old habits die hard!) iCoat AR goes on over 800+ lenses.  Essilor around 325. iCoat is about 30-40% less.  Stop the madness!  Get out of the rut and try a different product and you be the judge.

Contact Tom@icoatcompany.com Tell him I sent you and I am sure he will comp your first coating.

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## Chris Ryser

Last week, I have just come up with a new Easy-Clean Hydrophobic Spray that is made to be used by consumers, to renew their slick AR coated lens surfaces when they start getting hard to clean. It provides also anti-fog and anti-static properties. 

That should help to promote any AR coating even the ones you call bad, crap and more. I am tired to hear all this song and dance about only one product made by one company and the free advertising they get.

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## Nikolay Angelov

> Last week, I have just come up with a new Easy-Clean Hydrophobic Spray that is made to be used by consumers


That sounds interesting  :Smile: . When will it be available?
(i searched your web site but could not find it)

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## Craig

I brought Crizal to the US market for big E as one of 3 reps to launch the product 15+ years ago!  I have owned my own stores for 13+ years while doing 99% AR- yes, we have done that for 13+ years- and never use an E product. I pay 1/3 the price and have zero problems for any reason with the ar coatings we use. The lab we use is an E partner lab and can get me whatever I want done in-house.

AR lenses almost never scratch, but they do peel when you use a coating that does not perform.  Performing is staying on the lens as all the rest is about the same!!!!  The preparation of the lens and maintaing integrity in the process is what creates a great coating!  E does the best job of marketing and trying to limit the products they ar to improve the odds of being perceived as a great product, but it is just a good product with a great process!
The only problems we ever have with AR is on transitions products and that was a transitions issue; the heat from the process seems to break down the scratch coat/Europa on the transitions lenses, but that has gotten much better and we have returns less than 1% right now.

I love E, Z, S, L, VSP, DAVIS and all the rest that keep prices high for me to make money and for those that keep quality down so we can shine by just doing the right job at a fair price.  If you cannot beat the BIG ??, maybe it is time to figure out what they do wrong so you can offer an alternative.

It works for us and we just had our best year ever with 20% growth.

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## Fezz

> I brought Crizal to the US market for big E as one of 3 reps to launch the product 15+ years ago! I have owned my own stores for 13+ years while doing 99% AR- yes, we have done that for 13+ years- *and never use an E product.* I pay 1/3 the price and have zero problems for any reason with the ar coatings we use. The lab we use is an E partner lab and can get me whatever I want done in-house.


Craig,

By using a lab that is "E" owned, or "Partner", are you not, in fact using "E" product?

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## tigerlilly

Costco does AR in-house in a complicated, sophisticated process (that is way too over my head to explain, honestly) developed with the cooperation of a big name. It's superoleophobic with umpteen layers and a scratch resistance nearing that of glass. Definitely not crap.

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## Wes

Welcome back, Tigerlilly!

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## anthonyf1509

Is it possible Costco in different regions use different product?
Just curious because most defected and peeling and crazing etc we get from outside are Costco?

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## sharpstick777

> What I don't understand is how Costco provides such rapid service, especially for progressive fitting. My optician spends an average of 20 minutes or more with each client. She helps them with frames, counsels them on options, fits them carefully, dispenses etc. This increases our cost of each sale but is part of "what sets us apart". I've done some industrial espionage at Costco and it seems as if the average sale takes much much less time. I'm almost envious at how quickly they do this and frankly skeptical at how accurate they are. Obviously they wouldn't be able to have such low prices if they spent a half an hour with each patient.


You are correct, Costco spends very little labor on each patient.  But no one goes to Costco to look great they only go because its cheap.  They buy their products in immense quantities, use outdated lenses, and provide a low level of help all to reduce costs.  

There is a time for Costco in each of our lives.  I do appreciate their generous return policy so when it doesn't work, the patient gets a full refund.  In many cases I refered patients to Costco when price was the largest factor in their purchase.  When quality and cosmetics where more important, I would win every time.

Keep doing what you are doing, just do it the best you can and you will never be without patients.

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## sharpstick777

> I agree with Lee, the info is rite here although I must say that in my opinion the best AR  be it outdated or what have you is still Alize by Crizal, it cleans best, it has the best hydrophobe,best anti static, and best scratch resistance, And a 2 year unconditional warranty under most dealers. Not to hype it but go with what does the best job


I have posted in other forums, but Crizal is not the top scoring AR in independent durability testing, the Japanese AR's are by far (Hoya, Seiko).  Matsui Resin Co. (MR- in your materials codes) makes some amazing hard coats that they can only sell to Japanese Companies.  The hard coat and top coat are the two keys to great long lasting AR's, even if you have great process it doesn't mean a thing without a great hard coat.  Products and process have to work together.  Ever wonder why the Japanese don't license their AR's out?  It takes a very controlled and careful process, starting with great materials.

Leybold however just came out with new process that looks amazing, and I can wait to test it.  It may shift the tables completely if the test results are true.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Leybold however just came out with new process that looks amazing, and I can wait to test it.  It may shift the tables completely if the test results are true.
> *


*Cleaning and hard-coating lines: CHC60 / CHC150*Hard-coating by dip is the guarantee for premium scratch resistance applied to a lens. Machine, cleaning and hard-coating application adapted to the anti-reflection process are paramount for the market success. With the cleaning and hard-coating lines CHC 60 and CHC 150, Leybold Optics provides a superior tool and a full solution if integrated into a lab.

http://www.leyboldoptics.com/optics/...almic-lab.html

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## Happylady

> I have posted in other forums, but Crizal is not the top scoring AR in independent durability testing, the Japanese AR's are by far (Hoya, Seiko).


We use Seiko stock AR lenses a lot. I have seen no problems with durability but they become hard to clean and stay clean after a few months. I see the same issues with Crizal Easy and even Crizal Alize, though it's better then it used to be.

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## Chris Ryser

> *We use Seiko stock AR lenses a lot. I have seen no problems with durability but they become hard to clean and stay clean after a few months. I see the same issues with Crizal Easy and even Crizal Alize, though it's better then it used to be.
> 
> *



There is a new product on the market, to renew the cleanability which you can sell to consumers or apply yourself to get the feature back to EasyClean.  Check it out on Marketplace.

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## Rob Brown

> What I meant was the the independant company is probably the largest producer of AR. Costco sure does a lot too. I agree Chris, there are many good and great AR out there that are not from the Big E (Crizal is a great AR but it is not the only one).


'Crizal' must be French for 'Craze'?  Craze-all anyone?  Great marketing dollars well spent.  I have witnessed numerous incidents lately of bad 'C' coatings - crazed within 3 months.  There are many better quality coatings on the market at a lesser cost - all with the same warranties.  ECP's need to expand their horizons.

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## Opticlear

Amen Braheem

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