# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Making Optiboard a more welcoming place!

## Fezz

As a whole, we have not been a very welcoming community to newbies. I think that we tend to scare off those who are new to the business. I know that I have been guilty of it.....have you?

How can we change? How can we become the community of optical professionals that we should be? How can we improve how we handle new members?

I am on a personal mission to try to change the climate here and make it more welcoming. I encourage others to join me in trying to make a difference.

I posted in a thread about sending newbies info, materials, websites, contact info, etc. to help and encourage them.

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...134#post431134


Let's step up........not aside!

 :Skip:  :Dance:  :Skip:  :Dance:  :Skip:

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## gmc

Well said Fezz.

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## chip anderson

If we can't vent all or venom and frustration on the net trying to make ourselves look better by putting others down, aren't you afraid of mass suicides of older optiboarders?

Chip

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## Jubilee

I am with ya Fezz! Lets encourage people to be a part of this industry and to embrace it. That way people like Chip can feel a bit better at night about the people who will take over after he retires from the industy ;)

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## sharpstick777

Great job Fezz!  I am in.  Beer Scouts unite!

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## Fezz

> If we can't vent all or venom and frustration on the net trying to make ourselves look better by putting others down, aren't you afraid of mass suicides of older optiboarders?
> 
> Chip



Will you step up....or step aside? How can you help?

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## Fezz

I have been thinking and kicking ideas around. One of my main thoughts is:

**A Newbie Mentor Section*
This could be a section of dedicated Optiboarders who are willing to help without the BS usually associated with replies in the general forum. My thought is that maybe newbies would feel more comfortable posting in the "No Hassle Zone"

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## Jubilee

I think that is an excellent idea Fezz! Heck, I bet there are many old timers besides myself that dont' know it all yet, or at least need some reminders on things once in a while..

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## optigrrl

We just need to spread the kindness everywhere, regardless of the situation. More and more the stress of our daily lives as well as our patients and customers are rising with the state of the world and this brings about a lot of negativity in our daily interactions. Pushing ourselves to take the extra step and be strong and be nice will go a long way in helping to combat this.

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## optigrrl

Thanks Fezzy, for bringing this to light!

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## gmc

> I have been thinking and kicking ideas around. One of my main thoughts is:
> 
> **A Newbie Mentor Section*
> This could be a section of dedicated Optiboarders who are willing to help without the BS usually associated with replies in the general forum. My thought is that maybe newbies would feel more comfortable posting in the "No Hassle Zone"


That's a great idea! I'm in for this one.

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## LENNY

Ok, ok I will be nice!!!!:)

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## gordmac

I have allways been told it is nicer to say Please and Thank You to new comers. Like" Please don't ask dumb questions or Thank You for being a Newbie Idiot". Sounds a little more polite

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## Wes

Sign me up.

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## uncut

O.K., Fezz.  

 I, uncut, hereby pledge not to send newbies home in tears, crying to mommy that they weren't welcome at  Optiboard. 

 I, uncut, promise not to maim any flies, furry critters, or monsters, at least for today!

I, uncut,  also promise not to tell newbies to stick their nose into anything. :Redcarded:

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## fjpod

You're right...but sometimes we can't tell if newbies are real optical people or consumers or vendors in disguise.  We tend to jump all over these people.  Obvious consumers should politely be reminded of the rules.  The not so obvious posters should be given a few more posts and be asked a few more questions, since there is really no way to verify someone's credentials.

We should not vent our own philosophical differences on first time posters.

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## uncut

> I have been thinking and kicking ideas around. One of my main thoughts is:
> 
> **A Newbie Mentor Section*
> This could be a section of dedicated Optiboarders who are willing to help without the BS usually associated with replies in the general forum. My thought is that maybe newbies would feel more comfortable posting in the "No Hassle Zone"


You mean like a "newbie daycare"? :Wink:

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## Wes

I know this isn't in the spirit of this thread, but I'd like to share why the "stupid" questions annoy me. I don't mind the intelligent questions, but the ones displaying a near total lack of knowledge that any optician should posess from someone calling himself an optician really gets my hackles up.  It's because I call myself an optician as well, and that person is giving us all a bad name.  Now I realize that keeping that individual ignorant, not helping him progress, is furthering the bad name.  So I help anyway.  Sometimes grudgingly. 

I can't help but think none of this would be a problem if we had standards.  That's the point of that ABO survey.  Does an optician encounter this or that in the first two years?  Yep.  Should know all that stuff before practicing as an optician.  Those surveys are being used to support a position that many are pushing for.

Anyone else?

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## Judy Canty

I'm not going to allow this thread to be de-railed. In most states anyone can be labeled an optician. Yes, we need standards, but in the mean time we hurt no one by helping each other.

Back in 1972, when I took my first job in this industry, before I knew that Opticianry was a viable career path, I had plenty of "stupid" questions.  They were answered politely and helpfully and it made all the difference for me.

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## pseudonym

Newbies should get a subscription and post their dumb questions to the eyecare professionals forum. That's what I do. Really dumb questions I PM to certain soft-hearted opticians who'll do their best to answer it- you know who you are.  

pseudonym (coming up on year one in the business)

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## Browneyes1208

I am a "newbie" and asked my first question not long ago.  I was met with very mean-spirited replies by one person in general.  Most of the people were very kind.  I was VERY discouraged! I received many private notifications of apologies by the nice people on here, but I also received some that said they were met with the same kind of replies as a 
"newbie".  Some things some people do every day may not be something that someone else is familiar with.  I don't think newbies want to be held by the hand, but to make them feel like they are not asking a stupid question would be nice.  I like that idea.

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## Judy Canty

> I'm not going to allow this thread to be de-railed. In most states anyone can be labeled an optician. Yes, we need standards, but in the mean time we hurt no one by helping each other.
> 
> Back in 1972, when I took my first job in this industry, before I knew that Opticianry was a viable career path, I had plenty of "stupid" questions. They were answered politely and helpfully and it made all the difference for me.


Too late...but it was a nice thought.

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## chip anderson

The stupidest question, is the question not asked.

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## junebuggy

This is why those of us who took this most recent ABO are going berserk for results! Until we prove ourselves worthy we certainly don't seem welcome. 

 And while I'm ranting, thanks ABO for putting up that survey on the front page and not updating us on the progress of our tests. A blurb on the log-in page of any delay would be appreciated. Three weeks is a long time for page maintenance...

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## Steve Machol

> I know this isn't in the spirit of this thread, but I'd like to share why the "stupid" questions annoy me. I don't mind the intelligent questions, but the ones displaying a near total lack of knowledge that any optician should posess from someone calling himself an optician really gets my hackles up.  It's because I call myself an optician as well, and that person is giving us all a bad name.  Now I realize that keeping that individual ignorant, not helping him progress, is furthering the bad name.  So I help anyway.  Sometimes grudgingly.


I can certainly undersatand that, but in all fairness we were all newbies at some point. The mere fact that someone is taking the time to seek out knowledge and advice from a community of professionals should be rewarded, not discouraged. These are the people we should be helping.




> I am a "newbie" and asked my first question  not long ago.  I was met with very mean-spirited replies by one person  in general.  Most of the people were very kind.  I was VERY discouraged!  I received many private notifications of apologies by the nice people  on here, but I also received some that said they were met with the same  kind of replies as a 
> "newbie".  Some things some people do every day may not be something  that someone else is familiar with.  I don't think newbies want to be  held by the hand, but to make them feel like they are not asking a  stupid question would be nice.  I like that idea.


I'm sorry for the bad apple, but unfortunately such people are a fact of life, particularly in the online and anonymous world of the Internet. It's important to keep in mind that you will always run into jerks wherever you go. The only thing within your control is how you respond. Don't let the jerks get to you. They really aren't important enough to give them any power over your life.

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## finefocus

First of all, Fezz just made my list of good **** on the planet.
I think that often what newbies require isn't book learnin', it's context and interpretation of seeming contraditions of textbook phrases.
I've tried to offer answers, like those I could have used many years ago, to questions about common areas of confusion: Prism, the EM spectrum, that kind of thing.
I feel the obligation to pay forward the help I received back when internet shoppers didn't make us all defensive.
I don't propose to be a shopping-info service, I propose to support a civil help-a-newbie-today service.

Bravo Fezz. I respect you greatly. I hope that the community agrees to be, well, a community.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I'm sorry for the bad apple, but unfortunately such people are a fact of life, particularly in the online and anonymous world of the Internet.* *It's important to keep in mind that you will always run into jerks wherever you go.** The only thing within your control is how you respond. Don't let the jerks get to you. They really aren't important enough to give them any power over your life.
> *



Out of Members (today) = 20,804, we have Active Members = 1,365. Therefore any newbie active poster has been lurking in the backyard long before they start to become active poster. They have watched the process and are familiar with it. They have seen how it works and do start on familiar grounds. 

In my eyes they do not need any hand holding. Most of the question by a newbie are made just to feel the grounds and make some first steps.
I have seen so many developing into snotty posters within record short times.
Actually I do not see the need for a baby patting and hand holding service on OptiBoard.

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## Diane

I will share what knowledge I have.  Thanks for the opportunity.  Sometimes it's the looking something up that makes us better.  Dipping WAY down in our feeble brains is not a bad thing to do.  It may even keep us older Optiboarders, young.  :Smile:  

Diane

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## hcjilson

It occurred to me that we already have a forum entitled "Questions, Feedback, and Help. Perhaps it would accomplish the same purpose if we just change the title to Newbies Mentor Corner. Much simpler (I think!) In the early days of Optiboard I used to send a welcome note to each member, but it became too time consuming to maintain with the increased level of new members. Its a great idea Fezz but you have to keep it manageable. Changing the name of the forum is the easiest way out.

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## Fezz

That is a good idea Harry.

In your opinion, do you think that newbies would use that type of forum to get their feet wet before jumping in?

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## Fezz

> I am a "newbie" and asked my first question not long ago.  I was met with very mean-spirited replies by one person in general.  Most of the people were very kind.  I was VERY discouraged! I received many private notifications of apologies by the nice people on here, but I also received some that said they were met with the same kind of replies as a 
> "newbie".  Some things some people do every day may not be something that someone else is familiar with.  I don't think newbies want to be held by the hand, but to make them feel like they are not asking a stupid question would be nice.  I like that idea.


Thank you for sharing this! Your experience and some comments in that thread were pivotal in my thought process! I had been thinking it for a long time and that put me over the edge!

I appreciate your input! Thank you!

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## Sledzinator

When I first joined optiboard I jumped right in and was met with hostility not because of a stupid question but an opinion. This very quickly turned me off and I almost stopped posting completly and probably would have if someone wasn't kind enough to reach out. I would also like to point out that maybe the newb asking a question here is doing so because they have no one else to ask face to face. I think a mentoring forum or newb forum would be a great idea! I also think think reaching out to all the new members who join right after taking the test to get their ABO would be a great place to start.

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## Steve Machol

> In my eyes they do not need any hand holding. Most of the question by a newbie are made just to feel the grounds and make some first steps.
> I have seen so many developing into snotty posters within record short times.


Frankly it is wrong to prejudge a new poster on the assumption they are going to be 'snotty' in the future. 




> Actually I do not see the need for a baby patting and hand holding service on OptiBoard.


No one is talking about 'hand holding'. We are talking about common courtesy and professionalism.

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## Kara

I don't think it's necessary to hold our hands and wipe drool off our chins, but encouragement is nice. Letting us ask our questions without be subjected to ridicule and humiliation is not that hard to ask.

I always learned so much more when an older optician patiently explained things to me than I ever did when someone was screaming at me. I can also understand that you all are busy and have a thousand and one things that you HAVE to do. Taking time out of your day to answer a question you learned 30yrs ago and I should know by now is frustrating.

The only thing I would say is just keep in mind that our biggest hope as newbies is that one day we will possess the experience and knowledge that you all have right now. We(well, some of  us) are coming to you with respect, and admiration. Don't meet that with snarky, haughty attitudes and we'll get there someday.

That being said, I think us newbies should come in a bit more humble. Recognize who the elders are and be respectful. Most of all PAY ATTENTION. Quit asking the same questions that have been answered time and time again. Work hard, investigate, research and learn. I am very surprised at what I have been able to teach myself over the years. And, yes a slightly thicker skin is needed in this industry.

My point is, it's not just the elders, and it's not just the newbies. It's a group effort. Mistakes are made daily, that's just human life. It's what we learn from those mistakes and take with us that matter.

Thanks Fezz!!!  :Biggrin:

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## becc971

> I know this isn't in the spirit of this thread, but I'd like to share why the "stupid" questions annoy me. I don't mind the intelligent questions, but the ones displaying a near total lack of knowledge that any optician should posess from someone calling himself an optician really gets my hackles up.  It's because I call myself an optician as well, and that person is giving us all a bad name.  Now I realize that keeping that individual ignorant, not helping him progress, is furthering the bad name.  So I help anyway.  Sometimes grudgingly. 
> 
> I can't help but think none of this would be a problem if we had standards.  That's the point of that ABO survey.  Does an optician encounter this or that in the first two years?  Yep.  Should know all that stuff before practicing as an optician.  Those surveys are being used to support a position that many are pushing for.
> 
> Anyone else?


right but say someone gets hired into this field with NO experience (as i was, for example) and needed to be able to ask someone the stupid questions without being ridiculed or made to feel like they are completely unwelcome?  I've been an optician for three years now, and i still ask stupid questions, there is a lot to know.  Sometimes this is the only way someone will be able to learn, and when we're unwelcoming to a new person they're not going to want to use this board as an educational tool like they should be able to.  Personally i started with my company working with people who were completely unwilling to help me learn, were rude when i asked questions, almost to the point where i left.  Being the stubborn person that I am, i made it a point to educate myself since they wouldn't, and i used our company profile to access this board and it was a long time before i felt like i could create my own without having my ego killed.  We should be helping people approach a new career with confidence.  Otherwise we would be a dying breed  :Nerd:

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## Wes

We are a dying breed.  The current method of bringing others into this field is failing us all.  Someone should not be unleashed on the public as an optician until they have been trained, preferably formally. That's my point.  What is an optician if anyone can do it at day one?  It is literally NOTHING.  That must change.
I don't suppose anyone actually noticed that I pointed out that I realize I have to work with the system we have until it can be changed, or that I also volunteered to help others and do so often, when you quoted me.

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## Sledzinator

As someone who has gone through the current system I would agree that it isn't a good one. I would also like to say a simple comment from Wes is the reason I stayed. Truth is if someone asks a question you deem stupid you don't have to respond to it. It is unecessary to belittle people for their lack of knowledge just don't respond, its not that hard.

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## OptiNovice86

Good Morning, 

This morning a patient came into the office after having routine eye exam. Her final RX was OD:-4.75 -1.00 x 150 /OS: -6.50 -1.00 x 180 ADD:+2.50. Now, in her previous pair, she was wearing the Hi-Index 1.67 with an Ellipse PAL and a MFH of 17. We collectively decided to upgrade her frame to one with more depth than the previous. Her MFH in the new pair was about 18.5 and she also wanted to try out the Hi Index 1.74 lenses as well, I kept her in the Ellipse. My question is; considering the change in MFH should I have also changed her type of PAL? The reason why I elected not to change the Ellipse is because she has been wearing that specific type of PAL for a few years. Was this the correct solution? 

Once again, forgive my ignorance on the subject, I am just trying to learn the best I can.

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## Judy Canty

> It occurred to me that we already have a forum entitled "Questions, Feedback, and Help. Perhaps it would accomplish the same purpose if we just change the title to Newbies Mentor Corner. Much simpler (I think!) In the early days of Optiboard I used to send a welcome note to each member, but it became too time consuming to maintain with the increased level of new members. Its a great idea Fezz but you have to keep it manageable. Changing the name of the forum is the easiest way out.


Why not retitle that forum as "Optical Basics"?  It could also include some of the downloads that are located elsewhere on the board and a listing of relevant websites.

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## OptiNovice86

Of course I am going to be little bias in responding but I believe that in any respective field there are going to be new hires that have absolutely no experience. Even in the event that they do, that does not necessarily mean that they'll understand the protocol of whatever particular institution they find themselves employed. I think that people often forget that they too once had no knowledge nor experience and they inevitably had to attain that knowledge from someone! I greatly appreciate people like Fezz and anyone else who still understands that and is willing to extend a helping hand. We appreciate it!

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## optilady1

The bottom line is we should all be nice to people.  It's a basic concept that is going the way of the dinosaurs.

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## chip anderson

Geeze, I hope this doesn't result in everyone appologising for thier questions in advance.

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## optilady1

> Geeze, I hope this doesn't result in everyone appologising for thier questions in advance.


Lol, that is annoying.

  I will say that I'm guilty of not doing a search of the forums to maybe get an answer before I post a thread.  I think that this may prevent some of us who are on here all the time stop getting grumpy when someone new asks the same questions that have just been beaten to death the previous week.  

This of course is no excuse for being a big jerkface to new people.

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## kat

Count me in!! Great idea Fezz. I have always responded to the PM's I get. I will offer my advice freely to any who ask.

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## Uilleann

Grabs popcorn... :Timebomb:  :Spin: 

Great concept Fezz (as usual), though unlikely it will take root here on OB.

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## Steve Machol

> Grabs popcorn...
> 
> Great concept Fezz (as usual), though unlikely it will take root here on OB.


And why is that exactly?  Are you saying that you are unable to act courteously and professionally yourself?

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## Uilleann

> And why is that exactly?  Are you saying that you are unable to act courteously and professionally yourself?


Oh come on Steve.   :Tongue:   You well know the negative attitudes present here, and the industry perception of these boards.  It's been here for years - long before I began actively posting here - and shows no sign of doing anything but growing.  I'd love to see it all change.  But the reality is that's unlikely.

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## AngeHamm

> When I first joined optiboard I jumped right in and was met with hostility not because of a stupid question but an opinion. This very quickly turned me off and I almost stopped posting completly and probably would have if someone wasn't kind enough to reach out. I would also like to point out that maybe the newb asking a question here is doing so because they have no one else to ask face to face.


My early experience on OB was almost identical to this. And I was in no way a newbie; I was just a new member. I've been on home theater and gaming forums with more civil discourse than OptiBoard routinely displays.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: as long as the banner across the top of every page reads, "The Premier Online Community for Optical *Professionals*," professional and courteous discourse is reasonable to expect from every member, every time.

I'm glad to read so many people with a commitment to welcoming and politeness.

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## Steve Machol

> Oh come on Steve.    You well know the negative attitudes present here, and the industry perception of these boards.  It's been here for years - long before I began actively posting here - and shows no sign of doing anything but growing.  I'd love to see it all change.  But the reality is that's unlikely.


Then I look forward to you leading by example.  :Smile:

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## Diane

I may not be the oldest member or the longest member, but I DO remember when we were polite to each other.  As a matter of fact I seem to remember that other members made a point of recognizing the things that each of us excelled at and that was how a lot of the information was spread.  I think we can get there again.  I know we can get there again.

Diane

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## OptiNovice86

I agree 100%

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## kcount

I'm in.

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## Judy Canty

I remember those days quite well.  In fact, there was a time when many of us refused to converse with members who hid behind screen names.

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## kcount

I just refuse to talk to people that are beneath me.    :Cool:   :Wink:

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## Java99

I will try to be part of the solution.  New or not, real name or screen name, in my country or not, in a chain or not.

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## LENNY

> I remember those days quite well.  In fact, there was a time when many of us refused to converse with members who hid behind screen names.


Is LENNY ok?

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## opty4062

I have received a great deal of help and knowledge from Optiboard and for that I am thankful. I still feel like a "newb" here. I even feel some apprehension about posting questions or opinions. But it is far worth it in the long run. I will try yo be more active in being welcoming and helpful when I can.

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## nicksims

Nice idea. I'm all for it. And my vent- I enjoy coming here. I'm always learning something new and enjoying the commentary. I'm neither insulted by the angry comments nor personally offended. I love some good sarcasm, a joke and the occasional giving of grief. But there is a limit and every time that limit is crossed here, well crap, I've just wasted more freakin' time reading someone's whiny response instead of something worthwhile or entertaining. The super-obnoxious- they just aren't funny. They are simply a waste of all of our time.

As for the newbie questions that seem dumb, ignorant, or frustrating to those who whine at their pathetic little questions? Frankly, I enjoy those pathetic little questions. They sometimes remind me of things that I learned MANY years ago. And those little tidbits, adages, or methods sometimes change. So I enjoy the commentary on those questions- they make me think about what I've learned, what I've forgotten, is this current, etc. This isn't a closed room session only for the elite, it is an open forum, open to all in the profession, good or bad, experienced or young.

Now I think I'll grab gallons of used grunge water from the ultrasonic and piles of cheesy green nosepads, boil some stew, and throw in a consumer posing as an optician.  :Tongue:  :Tongue:  :Tongue: 

So Fezz, good idea. Looking forward to see how this develops.

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## fjpod

> We are a dying breed.  The current method of bringing others into this field is failing us all.  Someone should not be unleashed on the public as an optician until they have been trained, preferably formally. That's my point.  What is an optician if anyone can do it at day one?  It is literally NOTHING.  That must change.
> I don't suppose anyone actually noticed that I pointed out that I realize I have to work with the system we have until it can be changed, or that I also volunteered to help others and do so often, when you quoted me.


Well said.

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## fjpod

> Is LENNY ok?


No, Use your real name.  LOL.

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## Now I See

> I remember those days quite well.  In fact, there was a time when many of us refused to converse with members who hid behind screen names.


Ruh, roh!!! _(in my best "scooby-doo" voice!)_  :Smile: 

I would really like to see a forum like that, Fezz.  The thing is, if we want to produce a fine wine, we have to nurture the budding Opticians around us, otherwise they will wither on the vine, and we're left with a bunch of dried up ol' raisins! 

PS....and, yes, thick skin is helpful on O'board, luckily I worked in a lab when I first started optics that helped me toughen up before I found O'board.

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## Kara

> PS....and, yes, thick skin is helpful on O'board, luckily I worked in a lab when I first started optics that helped me toughen up before I found O'board.


That's where I got my thick skin! Well, that and the theatre!!!!  :Biggrin:

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## EyeManFla

When I got into the business, all the old timers I knew looked on bringing in an apprentice the same way they brought new members into the Blue Lodge. If they thought you were worthy, you got in.

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## Judy Canty

Yeah, I spent my first year in a wholesale lab.  Of course, this was the early '70s, when  the only way to talk to us was on the phone.  No anonymity there, ever!  I can't remember a single episode where I suffered verbal abuse from anyone.  The good old days!

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## NCspecs

I'm willing to participate. I'm always for civil and articulate discourse.

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## LENNY

> No, Use your real name.  LOL.


It is my real name!

No one can pronounce my last name!

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## Lee Prewitt

Great idea Fezz!  Count me in to help when I can.

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## MakeOptics

> We are a dying breed.  The current method of bringing others into this field is failing us all.  Someone should not be unleashed on the public as an optician until they have been trained, preferably formally. That's my point.  What is an optician if anyone can do it at day one?  It is literally NOTHING.  That must change.
> I don't suppose anyone actually noticed that I pointed out that I realize I have to work with the system we have until it can be changed, or that I also volunteered to help others and do so often, when you quoted me.


Wes, 

You are beginning to sound dangerously like me with your attitudes.  If I can tune your focus a bit.  Keep in mind you recognize that the newbies are being brought into this system that is broken, I agree whole heatedly.  Once they are here we should nourish them and watch them grow.  Now if you want to focus your attention, look at the ones who have had nourishment for years and still ask dumb questions, still ask the same dumb questions, that have never bought a book, etc.  If these weeds are allowed to grow they take nourishment from the flowers that can bloom.  If the newbies were nourished they would choke the weeds out.

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## sharpstick777

Good quote PhiTrace...




> Wes, 
> 
> You are beginning to sound dangerously like me with your attitudes.  If I can tune your focus a bit.  Keep in mind you recognize that the newbies are being brought into this system that is broken, I agree whole heatedly.  Once they are here we should nourish them and watch them grow.  Now if you want to focus your attention, look at the ones who have had nourishment for years and still ask dumb questions, still ask the same dumb questions, that have never bought a book, etc.  If these weeds are allowed to grow they take nourishment from the flowers that can bloom. * If the newbies were nourished they would choke the weeds out*.

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## Wes

And there are about a dozen newbs whining incessantly on multiple threads about not yet receiving their exam results.  Let's go make them feel welcome!

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## Steve Machol

> And there are about a dozen newbs whining incessantly on multiple threads about not yet receiving their exam results.  Let's go make them feel welcome!


Hmmm...how is that 'whining' and why do you feel compelled to insult them?

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## Wes

Despite the fact that the mid-Atlantic region has been hit by one of the worst non-hurricane storms in a century, and despite the fact that Judy and I have informed them of this on these threads, many still seem to want to take "snotty" (to use Ryser's term) jabs at the competence of the organizations they seek certification from. That's rather ironic.

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## Uilleann

> Despite the fact that the mid-Atlantic region has been hit by one of the worst non-hurricane storms in a century, and despite the fact that Judy and I have informed them of this on these threads, many still seem to want to take "snotty" (to use Ryser's term) jabs at the competence of the organizations they seek certification from. That's rather ironic.


The "snot" is coming from inside the house! (catch the pun?) Trying to project it onto the newcomers doesn't help anyone, and serves only to further undermine the credibility of the elevated few here perched on the stump of their seemingly bloated egos and personal agendas.

Knowing Fezz, I'm certain this was not his intent with his opening query in this thread.   :Timebomb:

----------


## MakeOptics

> The "snot" is coming from inside the house! (catch the pun?) Trying to project it onto the newcomers doesn't help anyone, and serves only to further undermine the credibility of the elevated few here perched on the stump of their seemingly bloated egos and personal agendas.
> 
> Knowing Fezz, I'm certain this was not his intent with his opening query in this thread.


Well stated but you know that because it's true means your are going to recieve some sort of backlash from that statement.  I guess that's why you put the bomb on the end of the line.  That's a neat little feature.

----------


## becc971

give the newbs credit that they actually went to get their certifications, especially if they work in a state that doesn't require it!  a lot of people nowadays wouldn't be bothered if they didn't have to.  I studied  for MONTHS for mine ... and once the sting wears off from that i'll be  trying for my master's when i get a little more time under my belt and some learnage (<--technical term) ... and i'll be grateful to everyone who helps me along the way  :Cool:  and i hope to be able to use this as a resource and have people be respectful and helpful!!

----------


## Steve Machol

> Despite the fact that the mid-Atlantic region has been hit by one of the worst non-hurricane storms in a century, and despite the fact that Judy and I have informed them of this on these threads, many still seem to want to take "snotty" (to use Ryser's term) jabs at the competence of the organizations they seek certification from. That's rather ironic.


I'm still confused. If I understand it correctly, these people are doing exactly what you and others want - taking the steps needed to increase their knowledge and expertise in a field that sorely needs both. Yet for some reason you feel compelled to ridicule and insult them because they are impatient? Does that sum it up or am I missing something?

----------


## Wes

I think you're missing something. 



> Wonder if you're as much of a jerk in person. Just sayin'


 http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...l=1#post431633

But it's your sandbox.  If they want to crap in it, it's not my problem, I suppose.  I will make no further commentary on the misbehavior of anyone, since it only seems to get me in hot water.

----------


## Uilleann

We would all do well to remember that regardless of what the ABO meant  or means to us personally, that others who take it come from wildly  varying scenarios, skill sets, life experience and educational  backgrounds.  Great case in point, a local dispenser in our area from  Germany, who practiced as an optometrist in Europe, didn't pass the ABO  here his first round.  Not because he didn't understand the material in  any way - but rather he was confused by the language of the examinations  questions.  Even with the difficulty he experienced during the exam, he  missed his passing score by a single point.  He was by no means a  "newb", nor unintelligent.

The judgmental tone of these boards  towards individuals and companies doesn't make a community - it makes a  negative, tense, and uncomfortable environment...and I dare say,  anything but 'professional'.

----------


## Wes

Point of clarification: by newbs, I meant new to Optiboard.  Obviously the ones who took and passed the advanced exam aren't newbs to the field.  Also, they weren't the ones making such a fuss.  
FWIW, you have an excellent point with that last post Uilleann.

----------


## hcjilson

I think it's important to remember exactly what the ABO and NCLE are. They both are a measure of basic entry level skills to become an optician. Everyone has to start somewhere. We all did. When we were starting out you could fill volumes of what we didn't know. Anyone who denies this is only kidding themselves. Don't put the exams down as too easy. If you think the exam can be improved, by all means join ABO and work toward that end, while at the same time supporting continuing education by not putting it down as simply as commercial ploy by the companies who provide it. Thoughts for today. best from harry

----------


## Wes

I know you deserve a lot of respect for what you've done with the profession. .


> I think it's important to remember exactly what the ABO and NCLE are. They both are a measure of basic entry level skills to become an optician. Everyone has to start somewhere. We all did. When we were starting out you could fill volumes of what we didn't know. Anyone who denies this is only kidding themselves. Don't put the exams down as too easy. If you think the exam can be improved,a by all means join ABO and work toward that end, while at the same time supporting continuing education by not putting it down as simply as commercial ploy by the companies who provide it. Thoughts for today. best from harry


Harry, I think this is one of your better posts.  I don't mean to be self serving, but I'd like to point out that I'm not the bad guy here.  I've done as much as most of you to further the profession, and I'd appreciate some respect.  I know you and Steve deserve it.  But so do Diane Drake and the rest of us.  WE have made Optiboard what it is, not the latest troublemakers.

----------


## hcjilson

Hear! Hear! Well said. No good guys/bad guys, I respect most of what appears here even if I disagree. All of your (everyone's) contributions have made this site what it is and after watching it grow into what we have made it become, I am extremely proud of it.

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## Chris Ryser

> *I** can certainly understand that, but in all fairness we were all newbies at some point. The mere fact that someone is taking the time to seek out knowledge and advice from a community of professionals should be rewarded, not discouraged. These are the people we should be helping.
> 
> I'm sorry for the bad apple, but unfortunately such people are a fact of life, particularly in the online and anonymous world of the Internet. It's important to keep in mind that you will always run into jerks wherever you go. The only thing within your control is how you respond. Don't let the jerks get to you. They really aren't important enough to give them any power over your life.
> *


Thinking back to the times when consumers where allowed on OB and sneaked in as newbies and played the role as low or semi knowledgable opticians. 

I remember foroever one active newbie optician under the name "Snowbunny", I was able to track her down, including picture, as a Toronto member of companionship agency. How are you going to prevent consumers that need some answers for on line puchases from posing as innocent newbies ?

----------


## chip anderson

No matter how long we have been in this business, no matter how much we studied, no matter how much we learned.  *You can still fill volumes with what we don't know.

*Chip

----------


## pseudonym

> Wes, 
> 
> You are beginning to sound dangerously like me with your attitudes.  If I can tune your focus a bit.  Keep in mind you recognize that the newbies are being brought into this system that is broken, I agree whole heatedly.  Once they are here we should nourish them and watch them grow.  Now if you want to focus your attention, look at the ones who have had nourishment for years and still ask dumb questions, still ask the same dumb questions, that have never bought a book, etc.  If these weeds are allowed to grow they take nourishment from the flowers that can bloom.  If the newbies were nourished they would choke the weeds out.


I resent being called a weed, especially when it's done by a "bud." I'm no dope. Gave the stuff up years ago. Still like crazy little songs about it, though.

----------


## Browneyes1208

I can't tell you how many times I have gone to the "tips" post.  I have learned so much on there.  I have worked for my optom for 16 years and 8 years prior to that for ophthalmologists (as a drs assistant)....but, I have worked in the optical lab for the last 9 years when our lab girl just up and quit one day.  Needless to say, I had to teach myself most things...so even though I have been in the business for many years, every bit of help I can get is appreciated.  Like I said, I have learned a lot from the tips board and even have passed them on to the docs. Thank you so much for wanting to help those of us who "don't know it all".   :Cool:  I have really appreciated it

----------


## GAgal

I'll be glad to help out Fezz

----------


## harry a saake

> I can't tell you how many times I have gone to the "tips" post.  I have learned so much on there.  I have worked for my optom for 16 years and 8 years prior to that for ophthalmologists (as a drs assistant)....but, I have worked in the optical lab for the last 9 years when our lab girl just up and quit one day.  Needless to say, I had to teach myself most things...so even though I have been in the business for many years, every bit of help I can get is appreciated.  Like I said, I have learned a lot from the tips board and even have passed them on to the docs. Thank you so much for wanting to help those of us who "don't know it all".   I have really appreciated it


Yes, and that was the exact reason i started that thread, some 10 years ago or so, as you can see it has grown into the most looked at post, that pertains to optical only, that we have on the board. However i have always been a little disappointed in the amount of members that we have that have not added anything to it. I am sure for one Chip Anderson, when he,s not out mudding(southern thing), for one could add a lot to that thread, HOW ABOUT THE REST OF YOU??

----------


## MakeOptics

> I resent being called a weed, especially when it's done by a "bud." I'm no dope. Gave the stuff up years ago. Still like crazy little songs about it, though.


There was absolutely nothing in my posts pointing a finger or insinuating you or your posts.  I am not sure if I should take offense to that or not, I will insinuate that you were joking or being funny, but as I have been told in the past this is a professional forum and crude behaviour is not tolerated so cut it out before I report you.























(I was just kidding I could care less what you think or post and found that to be a little funny, anyway carry on.)

----------


## Chris Ryser

> *Yes, and that was the exact reason i started that thread, some 10 years ago or so, as you can see it has grown into the most looked at post, that pertains to optical only, that we have on the board. However i have always been a little disappointed in the amount of members that we have that have not added anything to it. I am sure for one Chip Anderson, when he,s not out mudding(southern thing), for one could add a lot to that thread,* *HOW ABOUT THE REST OF YOU??
> *


Bravo Harry.................................for a good wake up call.

These day's where you can find just about any answer on the regular and specialised search engines, as well as the hundreds of optical websites of wich I have a list of over 900 of them, dedicated to OptiBoard, at: http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm from every field in the optical, from commercial to educational, anybody can find tons of information in the optical field.

Your thread is all thats needed for new and fresh opticians to pick up good ideas and how to apply them on the job. Most of the questions asked already have an answer there, and the ones that have not, can easily be answered.

----------


## pseudonym

> I am not sure if I should take offense to that or not,


Not. If the owner of the board isn't tickled, he has the power to have it removed. 

Your post about weeds , however...Are you the same guy who banged out a long, informative answer on your phone pad to a new optician who came in with a question a few months ago? I was so impressed that I sent you a friend request. 

My definition of weeds in the garden are those who evangelize about the need for more education, yet never stoop to contribute any to new people who come here seeking it. You know this already, I'm just taking the opportunity to inform the rest.

----------


## pseudonym

> I can't tell you how many times I have gone to the "tips" post.  I have learned so much on there.  I have worked for my optom for 16 years and 8 years prior to that for ophthalmologists (as a drs assistant)....but, I have worked in the optical lab for the last 9 years when our lab girl just up and quit one day.  Needless to say, I had to teach myself most things...so even though I have been in the business for many years, every bit of help I can get is appreciated.  Like I said, I have learned a lot from the tips board and even have passed them on to the docs. Thank you so much for wanting to help those of us who "don't know it all".   I have really appreciated it


There's no substitute for experience- which you HAVE. I'm licensed but that paper only means I'm a good test taker. I took notes on the thread you're speaking of while I was in school, and I still refer to them. Please contribute something new there if you can think of something that hasn't already been covered. It won't be easy. By the way, welcome to optiboard.

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## Browman

Just wanted to say that this thread was a contributing factor to my finally joining; and that the attitude I encountered here on Optiboard as a lurker was a contributing factor to my hesitancy to get into opticianry at all.

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## Diane

> Just wanted to say that this thread was a contributing factor to my finally joining; and that the attitude I encountered here on Optiboard as a lurker was a contributing factor to my hesitancy to get into opticianry at all.


I understand...both.  Welcome, my friend.

Diane

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## oopsmyeye

> I think it's important to remember exactly what the ABO and NCLE are. They both are a measure of basic entry level skills to become an optician. Everyone has to start somewhere. We all did. When we were starting out you could fill volumes of what we didn't know. Anyone who denies this is only kidding themselves. Don't put the exams down as too easy. If you think the exam can be improved, by all means join ABO and work toward that end, while at the same time supporting continuing education by not putting it down as simply as commercial ploy by the companies who provide it. Thoughts for today. best from harry


Did anybody else get an email from ABO asking to take a survey so they could revamp their test questions?  I liked how they had the sections where they would pose an opticians duty and ask when an optician should be able to complete the task (adjusting frames, transposing +/- rx, over refracting contacts) and they had 3 different options: Within the first 2 years practicing, after 2 years practicing, never.  It gave me good reflection on what the basics of opticianry should be, what the more advanced parts are and some things I would like to learn to be an even better optician (and some things I would like to be able to do but state laws don't allow).

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## tx11

I find it to be more welcoming when operational and marketing issues are being discussed than when technical/education.certification is being discussed. Many members do encourage and not just complain and criticize. For this i am grateful

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## MakeOptics

> Not. If the owner of the board isn't tickled, he has the power to have it removed. 
> 
> Your post about weeds , however...Are you the same guy who banged out a long, informative answer on your phone pad to a new optician who came in with a question a few months ago? I was so impressed that I sent you a friend request. 
> 
> My definition of weeds in the garden are those who evangelize about the need for more education, yet never stoop to contribute any to new people who come here seeking it. You know this already, I'm just taking the opportunity to inform the rest.


I knew what you were getting at and if you scroll to the bottom of that post I was just kidding with you.  Seems that a great number of folks here can find a way of being offended about anything so I find myself treading carefully.  That means less of the more descriptive posts to avoid upsetting the internutters.  (the term internutter might even be too harsh, I don't know) :)  Anyway I made it to 200 posts, then got kicked off, then re-enstated and I am still not really sure why but I thought about getting rid of this name and starting fresh, which I just might do.  I can't honestly say things would be different a second time around since we are who we are.  I think I told someone to "man up" which is a very common expression among guys.

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## oopsmyeye

> There's no substitute for experience- which you HAVE. I'm licensed but that paper only means I'm a good test taker. I took notes on the thread you're speaking of while I was in school, and I still refer to them. Please contribute something new there if you can think of something that hasn't already been covered. It won't be easy. By the way, welcome to optiboard.


I know what you mean by being licensed being equal to having good test taking skills.  I started in a Costco working as a morning stocker, was cross trained for a few hours on a few different shifts, read the study manuals and passed both ABO and NCLE exams.  Granted I was a chemistry and physics double major, opticianry was the end goal for my Costco time and optometry was my long term end goal... My manager at Costco had been a dispensing optician for 5 years and still couldn't pass the ABO exam.

----------


## pseudonym

> I knew what you were getting at and if you scroll to the bottom of that post I was just kidding with you.  Seems that a great number of folks here can find a way of being offended about anything so I find myself treading carefully.  That means less of the more descriptive posts to avoid upsetting the internutters.  (the term internutter might even be too harsh, I don't know) :)  Anyway I made it to 200 posts, then got kicked off, then re-enstated and I am still not really sure why but I thought about getting rid of this name and starting fresh, which I just might do.  I can't honestly say things would be different a second time around since we are who we are.  I think I told someone to "man up" which is a very common expression among guys.


I didn't scroll to the bottom until after I'd posted, but I did understand you were joking. Our senses of humor must be in pretty good tune. I didn't know you were booted from the island for any length of time, but glad to see you back. Changing your name is just hooey. You are who you are. FWIW you're ok by me.

----------


## pseudonym

> I know what you mean by being licensed being equal to having good test taking skills.  I started in a Costco working as a morning stocker, was cross trained for a few hours on a few different shifts, read the study manuals and passed both ABO and NCLE exams.  Granted I was a chemistry and physics double major, opticianry was the end goal for my Costco time and optometry was my long term end goal... My manager at Costco had been a dispensing optician for 5 years and still couldn't pass the ABO exam.


Your mgr had optical experience but poor test taking skills. We have unlicensed apprentices in our business who make minimum wage, yet can do great adjustments, instantly steer patients away from frames that are unsuitable for their Rx or facial characteristics, and generally ARE FAR BETTER opticians than I am with my newly minted license. 

Tell the truth, was your mgr a better optician than you with your ABO/NCLE?

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## Johns

> My manager at Costco had been a dispensing optician for 5 years and still couldn't pass the ABO exam.







> We have unlicensed apprentices in our business who make minimum wage,  yet can do great adjustments, instantly steer patients away from frames  that are unsuitable for their Rx or facial characteristics, and  generally ARE FAR BETTER opticians than I am with my newly minted  license.


I'll refrain from comment, and let the quotes speak for themselves.

(I am so glad I'll be out of this business in 10 years!)

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## oopsmyeye

> Your mgr had optical experience but poor test taking skills. We have unlicensed apprentices in our business who make minimum wage, yet can do great adjustments, instantly steer patients away from frames that are unsuitable for their Rx or facial characteristics, and generally ARE FAR BETTER opticians than I am with my newly minted license. 
> 
> Tell the truth, was your mgr a better optician than you with your ABO/NCLE?


Right when I took the test she was a better optician but after a couple months... no.  She didn't have problem solving skills and I was a double major in 2 problem solving fields.  She was good for Costco because she thought inside the box and she was a capable manager whereas I spend all my time outside the box dreaming of new problems to solve before they even arise.

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## pseudonym

> Right when I took the test she was a better optician but after a couple months... no.  She didn't have problem solving skills and I was a double major in 2 problem solving fields.  She was good for Costco because she thought inside the box and she was a capable manager whereas I spend all my time outside the box dreaming of new problems to solve before they even arise.


Fair enough. I work in warehouse retail myself. I was shocked after spending two years learning about optics to find the actual job involved more about getting around corporate baloney than about optics.

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## pseudonym

> I'll refrain from comment, and let the quotes speak for themselves.
> 
> (I am so glad I'll be out of this business in 10 years!)


Interesting koan. What is more important to being a good optician- passing scores on tests or experience in the field?

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## oopsmyeye

> Fair enough. I work in warehouse retail myself. I was shocked after spending two years learning about optics to find the actual job involved more about getting around corporate baloney than about optics.


Too true.  It wasn't necessarily corporate baloney for me but rather having to deal with cookie cutter solutions to problems that might need more than alphabet shaped cookies.

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## oopsmyeye

Getting back on topic about the curt attitude of some on here... I think one of the frustrations some people have is that some of these questions come from people that don't actually care about the profession.  Too frequently these beginner "opticians" are only working as an optician because their OD uncle got them a summer job at a LC or Americas Best or some place like that.  I've fielded too many questions over the phone from "opticians" asking me to fax a distance only Rx or reading only Rx because our doctor only wrote a script for a bifocal.

I can understand the frustrations... but we can at least be courteous enough to not reply if we are suspect.  Also, shame on whoever is in charge of hiring these fools that fall into opticianry because they just needed a temporary job (as opposed to wanting to work in optics).

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## wmcdonald

> Interesting koan. What is more important to being a good optician- passing scores on tests or experience in the field?


If you do something incorrectly 1000 times, it is still incorrect. If they have significant experience, and have been trained well, the test should not be a problem. It is designed as a measure of basic, entry-level knowledge. So, to answer your question, both are important. But experience is only valid when it is the right experience.

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## Diane

> If you do something incorrectly 1000 times, it is still incorrect. If they have significant experience, and have been trained well, the test should not be a problem. It is designed as a measure of basic, entry-level knowledge. So, to answer your question, both are important. But experience is only valid when it is the right experience.


Had a woman who had failed the practical exam in our state a few times come to me for help.  She had been in the optical "business" for almost 20 years, and wanted her license.  I was teaching her how to correctly measure the measurements of a frame with lenses inserted.  She was wrapping the ruler over the lenses, which was giving an incorrect measurement.  I showed her the correct way to measure, and her comment was, "well, this is how I was taught my my first manager, and I've been doing it this way for almost 20 years, now".  My answer to her was...."well, you've been doing it wrong for almost 20 years, now".   So I told her you can continue the way you have been doing it and continue to fail, or you can do it correctly and pass.  Your choice.  

Diane

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## wmcdonald

> Had a woman who had failed the practical exam in our state a few times come to me for help. She had been in the optical "business" for almost 20 years, and wanted her license. I was teaching her how to correctly measure the measurements of a frame with lenses inserted. She was wrapping the ruler over the lenses, which was giving an incorrect measurement. I showed her the correct way to measure, and her comment was, "well, this is how I was taught my my first manager, and I've been doing it this way for almost 20 years, now". My answer to her was...."well, you've been doing it wrong for almost 20 years, now". So I told her you can continue the way you have been doing it and continue to fail, or you can do it correctly and pass. Your choice. 
> 
> Diane


That is the simple fallacy of the outdated, outmoded, and completely ridiculous system we call apprenticeship. It is nothing more than cheap labor, and the reason some form of education should be required prior to entering this field. Many "opticians" have no clue what they do not know. We are not treating these folks fairly, and are dumbing down the field with each generation.

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## Johns

> "well, this is how I was taught my my first manager, and I've been doing it this way for almost 20 years, now".  My answer to her was...."well, you've been doing it wrong for almost 20 years, now". 
> 
> Diane


You've gotta love it when you hear that!  Often, it is someone that was trained by someone that was never trained.

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## Now I See

None of us know what we do not know.  The big step is admitting that we don't know, once that is done, then we can move on to find someone to help us...that's where this forum comes in.  Personally, I'm surprised to see that there is _ANY_ debate on Fezz's proposal....I mean what's the big deal, if you feel the need to berate and belittle, then don't bother answering in that thread...seems pretty straightforward...I say go for it, Fezz!!!

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## Johns

> None of us know what we do not know.  The big step is admitting that we don't know, once that is done, then we can move on to find someone to help us...that's where this forum comes in.


I don't know what you're trying to say!

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## Now I See

> I don't know what you're trying to say!


LOL...you'll know it, when you know it...you know what I mean??  :Wink:

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## Barry Santini

> Interesting koan. What is more important to being a good optician- passing scores on tests or experience in the field?


Neither and both.

The real bottom line: Accomplishment...where knowledge experience,SKILL, and a scientific approach are needed for the complete recipe.

B

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## Robert Martellaro

> None of us know what we do not know. The big step is admitting that we don't know, once that is done, then we can move on...


That sounds so...Rumsfeldian!

_None of us knows anything, not even whether we know or do not know, nor do we know whether not knowing and knowing exist, nor in general whether there is anything or not._ 

-Metrodorus of Chios

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## uncut

> That sounds so...Rumsfeldian!
> 
> _None of us knows anything, not even whether we know or do not know, nor do we know whether not knowing and knowing exist, nor in general whether there is anything or not._ 
> 
> -Metrodorus of Chios



Oooooh, that is so profound, and I want what you're smokin'! :Wink:

----------


## Wes

> If you do something incorrectly 1000 times, it is still incorrect. If they have significant experience, and have been trained well, the test should not be a problem. It is designed as a measure of basic, entry-level knowledge. So, to answer your question, both are important. But experience is only valid when it is the right experience.





> Had a woman who had failed the practical exam in our state a few times come to me for help.  She had been in the optical "business" for almost 20 years, and wanted her license.  I was teaching her how to correctly measure the measurements of a frame with lenses inserted.  She was wrapping the ruler over the lenses, which was giving an incorrect measurement.  I showed her the correct way to measure, and her comment was, "well, this is how I was taught my my first manager, and I've been doing it this way for almost 20 years, now".  My answer to her was...."well, you've been doing it wrong for almost 20 years, now".   So I told her you can continue the way you have been doing it and continue to fail, or you can do it correctly and pass.  Your choice.  
> 
> Diane





> That is the simple fallacy of the outdated, outmoded, and completely ridiculous system we call apprenticeship. It is nothing more than cheap labor, and the reason some form of education should be required prior to entering this field. Many "opticians" have no clue what they do not know. We are not treating these folks fairly, and are dumbing down the field with each generation.





> You've gotta love it when you hear that!  Often, it is someone that was trained by someone that was never trained.


DunningKruger effect:

The *DunningKruger effect* is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others"

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

tend to overestimate their own level of skill;fail to recognize genuine skill in others;fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, _if_ they are exposed to training for that skill

Although the DunningKruger effect was put forward in 1999, David Dunning and Justin Kruger have quoted Charles Darwin ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge")[3] and Bertrand Russell ("One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision")[4] as authors who have recognised the phenomenon.

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## wmcdonald

Wes, Dunning-Kruger may or may not be the case here. It throws too large a blanket over too diverse population, but does provide some insight over the plight we face. Thanks for your insight. Your dollars in the graduate program were well spent.

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## Robert Martellaro

I thought this thread was about "Making Optiboard a more welcoming place", not about the incompetence of America's opticians?

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## oopsmyeye

> I thought this thread was about "Making Optiboard a more welcoming place", not about the incompetence of America's opticians?


The reasoning behind OB being a cruel place for newbies to be is because of the incompetence of America's (or other) opticians.

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## Judy Canty

> The reasoning behind OB being a cruel place for newbies to be is because of the incompetence of America's (or other) opticians.


Are you including yourself in that description?  After all, Las Vegas is still an American city.

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## oopsmyeye

I'm new here, I've only got 15 posts... I hope I haven't been an intolerant jerk so far!

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## Chris Ryser

Obviously this thread now has lived its useful life and is now on its last leg to the OptiBoard cemetary.

In the exactly 2 weeks of its life it has made Replies: 121, and Views: 4,473 before deviating into other issues. I always find it interesting that some threads start out like an avalanche but ebb out into something else before everybody looses interest.

Has it achieved its intentions ? We will find out.

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## LSUpaul20

To redirect this thread back to the original point, I would like to share my experience so far on OptiBoard.  I have only been a member for only one week.  I posted on here to find new ideas, help, and etcetera to start-up an optical shop.  I have to give credit to everyone that took their time to welcoming me and sharing their thoughts.  I might be one of the lucky one that didn't get insulted or harassed, but positive feedback is also important and not overlooked.  Again, thank you for welcoming me and helping me out with my journey.  Thanks.




> Obviously this thread now has lived its useful life and is now on its last leg to the OptiBoard cemetary.
> 
> In the exactly 2 weeks of its life it has made Replies: 121, and Views: 4,473 before deviating into other issues. I always find it interesting that some threads start out like an avalanche but ebb out into something else before everybody looses interest.
> 
> Has it achieved its intentions ? We will find out.

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## Now I See

> Obviously this thread now has lived its useful life and is now on its last leg to the OptiBoard cemetary.


RIP...dear thread...RIP  :Angel: 






> Has it achieved its intentions ? We will find out.


  I hope so...sounded like Fezz had a good start, and many responded in a positive manner.

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## Browman

> That is the simple fallacy of the outdated, outmoded, and completely ridiculous system we call apprenticeship. It is nothing more than cheap labor, and the reason some form of education should be required prior to entering this field. Many "opticians" have no clue what they do not know. We are not treating these folks fairly, and are dumbing down the field with each generation.


I think this line of thinking is a fallacy. All of the classroom learning in the world won't do you an ounce of good without the experience to give you a _real_ education. What we need is more experienced opticians mentoring apprentice opticians, not fewer. It's just as easy for there to be an incompetent professor spouting misinformation as there is someone in an office setting. I know; I went to college for six years. I had my share.

My background is in psychology; I can tell you that all of the classroom learning and "education" I received over the course of my four year BS program didn't prepare me _at all_ for actually setting down and dealing with someone suffering from a mental illness. It was that disparity between thinking I was prepared and finding out that no one had prepared me at all that led to my reassessing my career plans and not pursuing a PhD.

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## Judy Canty

Students who graduate from accredited opticianry programs not only receive clinical experience, they also serve externships in the "real world" every one is so fond of.  

I believe there is as much difference between a Psych major with a undegraduate degree and a PhD in Psycology as there is in simple OJT and a degree in Ophthalmic Dispensing.

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## TLG

removed for irrelevant content - apologies.

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## sharpstick777

Steve Machol,
We have a great request from Fezz, we have mostly agreement here.  But we really have not heard from you?
Since you own this forum, and you alone control its outcome, and you have made a few comments here...

What do you think of the ideas Fezz has requested?  Sentiment is one thing, action another.

Where are you on this?

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## wmcdonald

> I think this line of thinking is a fallacy. All of the classroom learning in the world won't do you an ounce of good without the experience to give you a _real_ education. What we need is more experienced opticians mentoring apprentice opticians, not fewer. It's just as easy for there to be an incompetent professor spouting misinformation as there is someone in an office setting. I know; I went to college for six years. I had my share.
> 
> My background is in psychology; I can tell you that all of the classroom learning and "education" I received over the course of my four year BS program didn't prepare me _at all_ for actually setting down and dealing with someone suffering from a mental illness. It was that disparity between thinking I was prepared and finding out that no one had prepared me at all that led to my reassessing my career plans and not pursuing a PhD.


But you had at least some level of understanding. You come from a great place, Texas, but to be an Optician there require the stringent requirement of a pulse. Now there are some wonderful Opticians there, but not many. There IS no one to mentor folks, so some basic level of education and training should be required. Do they need experience? Of course, but doing somethign 10000 times incorrectly does not make it correct. 

But as Robert reminded me above, this conversation is away from the real thrust of this thread. Just know that I want this field to improve and the only way is through education and training.

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## MakeOptics

> Students who graduate from accredited opticianry programs not only receive clinical experience, they also serve externships in the "real world" every one is so fond of.  
> 
> I believe there is as much difference between a Psych major with a undegraduate degree and a PhD in Psycology as there is in simple OJT and a degree in Ophthalmic Dispensing.


That'sa  horrible explanation they both have degrees, the difference between the opticians OJT and degreed is the degree not the level of the degree.  It's pointless to argue about a degree.

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## Judy Canty

> That'sa  horrible explanation they both have degrees, the difference between the opticians OJT and degreed is the degree not the level of the degree.  It's pointless to argue about a degree.


That's almost incoherent, so I'll leave you to your analogies and your fun.

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## MakeOptics

> That's almost incoherent, so I'll leave you to your analogies and your fun.


Typed between spurts at work, I have heard about your reputation and demeanor.  You can't bully me off this board with your attitude.  Thank you for the poster who showed me the ignore feature, +1 to you.

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## Steve Machol

> Steve Machol,
> We have a great request from Fezz, we have mostly agreement here.  But we really have not heard from you?
> Since you own this forum, and you alone control its outcome, and you have made a few comments here...
> 
> What do you think of the ideas Fezz has requested?  Sentiment is one thing, action another.
> 
> Where are you on this?


I've resopnded several times and have made many of similar requests over the years. Of course I want people to act like grown-ups and professionals. Why wouldn't I? I'm surprised there is any question about that.

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## Diane

> That's almost incoherent, so I'll leave you to your analogies and your fun.


Thank you Judy.  You are my friend and always will be.  

Diane

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## Wes

Whatever happened with this concept?

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## sharpstick777

> I've resopnded several times and have made many of similar requests over the years. Of course I want people to act like grown-ups and professionals. Why wouldn't I? I'm surprised there is any question about that.





> I have been thinking and kicking ideas around. One of my main thoughts is:
> 
> **A Newbie Mentor Section*
> This could be a section of dedicated Optiboarders who are willing to help without the BS usually associated with replies in the general forum. My thought is that maybe newbies would feel more comfortable posting in the "No Hassle Zone"


Sorry Steve, I thought I had included Fezz's specific idea.  I didn't see that you responded to this...

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## bull city optician

I am a newbie, could you explain how I could start a post. Iam looking for a trial frame set with missing pieces. I need them for an art project. of course I have no idea how to find your response. my email is buulcityoptician@gmail.com

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## Fezz

Welcome to Optiboard!

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## Steve Machol

> I am a newbie, could you explain how I could start a post. Iam looking for a trial frame set with missing pieces. I need them for an art project. of course I have no idea how to find your response. my email is buulcityoptician@gmail.com


Go to the appropriate forum and click on 'New Thread'.

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## sharpstick777

> Go to the appropriate forum and click on 'New Thread'.


Welcome to Optiboard!

The appropriate forum being:  General Optics and Eyewear Discussions, its perfect for questions like yours.   There is a button on the top left entitled post a new thread, you might mention its your first post, but you don't have to.  Welcome.

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## FullCircle

> The reasoning behind OB being a cruel place for newbies to be is because of the incompetence of America's (or other) opticians.


So rather than realizing that these folks have sought out OB and using this as a chance to educate them, it's ok to be rude and chase them away? How does this help anyone?

In all honesty, I stopped paying for the better membership then ultimately dropped off this board because of the attitudes here. I came here looking to increase my knowledge base, help my patients and teach my associates. But I found that often where I chose to do this was a HUGE problem for some members. Yes, I work for LC. No, we aren't all idiots. But many here treated me that way based on who wrote my check. I grew weary of standing up for the great Opticians that I worked with, and finally realized that I couldn't win against opticians that felt that their s*** didn't stink because they worked for an independent.

I now lurk, and rarely ever post. And I hate that. I want to be more involved in my career community, I want to keep new opticians from making mistakes like spending 20 years bending the PD stick for frame measurements. But dang, some people make it tough.

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## Chris Ryser

After 5 years of being a member and 619 post's I don't feel that you are a newbie and don't think you are treated like one.

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## Plausible

> After 5 years of being a member and 619 post's I don't feel that you are a newbie and don't think you are treated like one.


  Chris, I don't think FullCircle is saying their a newbie or treated like a newbie. FullCircle and anyone else working for LC or E esspecially must certainly feel the hatred for their employers here. To deny the undertow of anti LC or E setiment present onthis site is futile.

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## Jubilee

FullCircle, 

I was once in your shoes. I also ran into issues from corporate for my posts upon occasion that weren't 100% in support of them. That being said.. 

MANY of the folks on this forum got their start, or in their careers have worked for the corporates. I have argued time and again that WHERE you work does not have a darn thing to do with your ability or skill. For some corporate is better because of the benefits, your own schedule, etc. There are just as many incompetent people in your doctor's office, as there are in the mass retail setting.

My disdain is for the corporation and their vertical integration strategy, and their treatment of many of their people. I have worked with far too many great opticians and minds in corporate to discount them as being "under" me. I would hope, and I believe that the vast majority on this board welcome you as one of  the family as well.. just a few vocal people like to paint with a broad brush in an effort to elevate themselves...

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## Judy Canty

> FullCircle, 
> 
> I was once in your shoes. I also ran into issues from corporate for my posts upon occasion that weren't 100% in support of them. That being said.. 
> 
> MANY of the folks on this forum got their start, or in their careers have worked for the corporates. I have argued time and again that WHERE you work does not have a darn thing to do with your ability or skill. For some corporate is better because of the benefits, your own schedule, etc. There are just as many incompetent people in your doctor's office, as there are in the mass retail setting.
> 
> My disdain is for the corporation and their vertical integration strategy, and their treatment of many of their people. I have worked with far too many great opticians and minds in corporate to discount them as being "under" me. I would hope, and I believe that the vast majority on this board welcome you as one of  the family as well.. just a few vocal people like to paint with a broad brush in an effort to elevate themselves...


+1

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## FullCircle

> After 5 years of being a member and 619 post's I don't feel that you are a newbie and don't think you are treated like one.



Chris, I actually left for a while due to issues outside of optics, came back, found the climate very much the same then really left. I'd pop back in and lurk every now and again but that's about it. 




> FullCircle and anyone else working for LC or E esspecially must certainly feel the hatred for their employers here. To deny the undertow of anti LC or E setiment present onthis site is futile.


Oh this is so true! I work where I work because I do like the amount of people I get to interact with, the number of jobs I get to run, the insurance (I love the benefits). This company helped making the move from the midwest to the west coast nearly painless. I don't work there because I'm stupid, or I don't care about ensuring the future of my career field. It's simply another venue to practice my skills.

I know one of the topics that has come up often is the lack of allegiance (for lack of a better word) among ophthalmologists, optometrists and opticians. how do we expect these three groups to come together if we can't do it among ourselves? 

I'm willing to give this board another shot. I want to pass along the knowledge in my head and broaden my own learning (I still want my ABOM at the very least. Yeah, that's right, a chain drone that wants her ABOM). I want to be able to tell my associates that are looking to take the ABO about this awesome board where they can learn and ask questions. We just need to stop acting like primadonnas.

I'd be willing to go so far as to say that I'd happily help with newbs if need be. No matter where they worked

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## FullCircle

> FullCircle, 
> 
> I was once in your shoes. I also ran into issues from corporate for my posts upon occasion that weren't 100% in support of them. That being said.. 
> 
> MANY of the folks on this forum got their start, or in their careers have worked for the corporates. I have argued time and again that WHERE you work does not have a darn thing to do with your ability or skill. For some corporate is better because of the benefits, your own schedule, etc. There are just as many incompetent people in your doctor's office, as there are in the mass retail setting.
> 
> My disdain is for the corporation and their vertical integration strategy, and their treatment of many of their people. I have worked with far too many great opticians and minds in corporate to discount them as being "under" me. I would hope, and I believe that the vast majority on this board welcome you as one of  the family as well.. just a few vocal people like to paint with a broad brush in an effort to elevate themselves...


Jubilee, you have always been one of the nice ones and I totally appreciate you and the others that were welcoming and kindhearted  :Smile:

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## wearegood

> I am a "newbie" and asked my first question not long ago.  I was met with very mean-spirited replies by one person in general.  Most of the people were very kind.  I was VERY discouraged! I received many private notifications of apologies by the nice people on here, but I also received some that said they were met with the same kind of replies as a 
> "newbie".  Some things some people do every day may not be something that someone else is familiar with.  I don't think newbies want to be held by the hand, but to make them feel like they are not asking a stupid question would be nice.  I like that idea.


Me too. Some problem occurred when I asked the first question. So Here I suggestion people here could treat people with simple and obvious questions kindly. To most newbies, optiboard is out of reach.

To Fezz, maybe we can set up a list of FAQ on the forum page, attach videos in possible. We aim at a community of discussion and help instead of top scientists group, are we?

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## Fezz

Full Circle,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences on this! 

Your experience on here mirrors many. It is part of the reason why I started this thread.

I realize that we have failed as a community and we have done a lot of damage! I took a hard look at myself and realized that I was part of the problem! I have made a concentrated effort to change and become part of the solution! We have some good folk here in this thread who are willing to join me in stepping up!

I encourage newbies to come out of lurk mode and participate, ask questions, ask for help, and become part of this community. If you are afraid to......I understand! This can be a rough place! If you do not want to participate in the open forum, feel free to contact me, or any other helpful member that offered to help make a difference in this thread, by Private Message and we will surely help you in any way we possibly can!

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## Fezz

> i'd be willing to go so far as to say that i'd happily help with newbs if need be. No matter where they worked


thank you!

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## Tallboy

Not trying to advertise but the guys at VSI have answered more of my stupid questions than they EVER should have been expected to.  That edger was worth every penny for that alone.  Love those guys.

I may be a little more thick skinned than a lot of newbies on optiboard, but I've had my share of grumpy old opticians teach me over the years.  I know what I know really well, but there is a TON of things I need to learn, re-remember and discover the truth behind.

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## Jason H

I respect the spirit of trying to encourage more people to participate in Optiboard, but is the solution really to sequester the people you're trying to reach out to? How will you do it without sounding condescending? You're already calling them "newbies".

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## Uncle Fester

> ...but I've had my share of grumpy old opticians teach me over the years.





> How will you do it without sounding condescending? You're already calling them "newbies".


Yaddah-Yaddah--Now get back to work!   :Tongue:

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## fjpod

segregating newbies???  I dunno...someone may be new to Optiboard, but a well seasoned practitioner.  And vice versa.

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## Steve Machol

I have never considered 'newbies' to be derogatory. We are all newbies at some point.

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## NUECoptical

I've loved OptiBoard so far quite honestly!  I appreciate all the help for studying that I've received so far (only 3 more weeks to go until I take the ABO)!  But as much as I appreciate the test taking help, I've been even more interested in the discussion about progressive lens designs and learning what is appropriate in certain situations.  Thanks for all the valuable insights!  So just from my experience, you're already putting ideas in this thread into practice!   :Biggrin:

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## MakeOptics

Optiboard is an ecosystem, their are deer, buffalo, turkey, badgers, and of course scum, slugs, and rodents.  You don't judge earth by the worst creature living in it.  Also all the folks here actually intertwine making the place more interesting.  I could get used to a few less loud mouth old timers, but then that would impact the amount of joy Fezz gets from this site. ;)  Take the good with the bad, I have actually seen things change around here for the better lately and I would like to thank Fezz for bringing attention to the "newbies".  It is nice to encourage the new flock of visitors and I thank Fezz and Johns for their continued effort in welcoming all visitors and then hazing them appropriately.

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## Johns

> It is nice to encourage the new flock of visitors and I thank Fezz and Johns for their continued effort in welcoming all visitors and then hazing them appropriately.


Thanks PhiTrace, I guess it's just in our blood. (The hazing part...) :Bounce: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=167IhlXnN2Y

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