# Optical Forums > Canadian Discussion Forum >  Calling All Ontario Opticians

## godin33

The Association needs you!!  For those of you who are members, we are in a membership drive...... did you get the email?!

For those of you who are not members.......... what's stopping you?  
We are trying to make being a member of the Ontario Opticians Association even sweeter. 
Mind you being a member isn't all about perks... being a member of the Association is being a part of a VOICE that represents YOU as a professional.  

I get the impression talking to fellow Opticians, that it's assumed the College of Opticians of Ontario is all you need to be a part of.  
As hard as the College works in Ontario, they work in the publics interest......not ours.
We need the Association because they work in the interest of the Opticians!!  
Unfortunately the % of Ontario Opticians who are members is low.....no support means no voice...... we need more support!!  
Any body interested?  PM ME!  
Questions? PM ME!!

Gnight!
:)

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## For-Life

Just playing devil's advocate, but what voices are being expressed by the association?  We have online glasses and contact vendors illegally practicing in Ontario, OD's who have a forced cost structure that makes Opticians uncompetitive, and practices that are pushing for the obseletism of Opticians.

Some of these are new issues, but some are almost 20 years old.  It is NOW time for action.

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## eyemanflying

I have to agree with For-Life...I've been a member for years now.  Other then great group rates on insurance, they really don't do enough in protecting the profession.  

They're motto is 'to be heard' and 'the voice for opticians', but seems they are both 'hearing impaired' while having 'laryngitis' for the past 10 years.  

The issues that have been thorns in our rear ends for years continue to fester without anyone stepping up to the plate and taking any type of action.  

A class action would provide faster, effective results...now if we could just get the two O's to join forces and all agree...the issues would go away and the optical world would be a much better place!!!

P.S. What I witnessed Saturday afternoon absolutely sickens me...while driving by a plaza with a Great Glasses store, saw a moron dressed up with Elvis sunglasses wearing a sandwich board advertising 3 for $99 and free eye exams.

Apparently I've been living under a rock.  Since when did Great Glasses get into the pizza business???  

How much longer can they continue to disregard, insult and degrade our profession(s)???

It's about bloody time the COO and OOA got off their a$$es and did something.  The only ones that continue to win are GG and the lawyers.  

*IT'S TIME FOR ACTION!*

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## Refractingoptician.com

In my humble opinion, only legislative changes can stop the problems we have today. Read the transcripts of what happened in the BC case and read what the judge had to say . 

IMHO, I do not believe that COO or the Association is seeking to change the legislation , therefore nothing will change to effectively stop the degradation that exists today . 

There are labs , lens suppliers, frame suppliers , and edging equipment suppliers that are all servicing these accounts somehow even if it is through redirection.  Are they doing enough to stop this ? Do you deal with these suppliers ? 


Many will disagree with me on this but in my humble opinion, rather than spend money to join associations and pay renewal fees to buy unprotected franchise rights , the best way to be heard & quickly get legislative change is this : Do not renew your licenses . Doing nothing will get attention and bring change . Refuse to compromise . In the industrial world it would be called a strike . They stop the flow of cash to bring about the changes they want . CASH IS KING .  

They sold you an education and charged you an annual licensing fee to give you the "right" or "franchise"  to what you believed was a protected territory . They have reneged on their promise to you & misled you . They have reduced your  rights & privelges, but raised the franchise fee .

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## For-Life

> *IMHO, I do not believe that COO or the Association is seeking to change the legislation , therefore nothing will change to effectively stop the degradation that exists today .*


Why not?

clearly, if they are not prepared to do that, then they are not acting as a voice.

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## Refractingoptician.com

,,

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## For-Life

> All of you , call COO tomorrow and ask if they are seeking legislative change and ask them what changes they are requesting to deal with these old problems . 
> 
> Call the association and ask them the same question. 
> 
> In My Humble Opinion , if you stick to your guns and persist with the question and don't let them sidetrack you , then the answer you will get will be "zero"  we are not seeking legislative change to deal with these matters .  
> 
> Now ask yourself , can you remember a "voice" that has suggested any method to deal with these things ? 
> 
> Read the transcripts of the BC case and then ask yourself why they were even in court ? The judge told them what to do . SEEK LEGISLATIVE CHANGE .


I am not disputing that.  What I am saying is if they ARE the voice, they should be seeking legislative changes on behalf of us

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## Refractingoptician.com

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## Refractingoptician.com

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## godin33

> Just playing devil's advocate, but what voices are being expressed by the association?  We have online glasses and contact vendors illegally practicing in Ontario, OD's who have a forced cost structure that makes Opticians uncompetitive, and practices that are pushing for the obseletism of Opticians.
> 
> Some of these are new issues, but some are almost 20 years old.  It is NOW time for action.


How can our association be taken seriously when they only have about 50% support?!  
Im dont work with the association or anything I just think its silly how we all expect the association to do all these things for us, to protect us.......meanwhile they've only got 50% of us supporting them!

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## godin33

K let me play devils advocate as well for just a second......
Lets say the Optometrists Association went to the Ministry and said........"we'd like to have more involvement with pharmacology.....We being the 50% of Ontario Optometrists that is......Yes 50% of us would like to have more involvement with the treatment of Glaucoma......"

Do you think they'd be taken seriously?

OD's have an Association support in the high 80!!

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## For-Life

> How can our association be taken seriously when they only have about 50% support?!  
> Im dont work with the association or anything I just think its silly how we all expect the association to do all these things for us, to protect us.......meanwhile they've only got 50% of us supporting them!


50% support is pretty good.  You are saying that 1000 or something opticians are supporting this cause.

I know recently the Health Unit here has been promoting fluoride in the water and brought it to City Hall.  It named 15 dentists who support the cause.  That is far less than 50% of the dentists in town.

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## For-Life

> K let me play devils advocate as well for just a second......
> Lets say the Optometrists Association went to the Ministry and said........"we'd like to have more involvement with pharmacology.....We being the 50% of Ontario Optometrists that is......Yes 50% of us would like to have more involvement with the treatment of Glaucoma......"
> 
> Do you think they'd be taken seriously?
> 
> OD's have an Association support in the high 80!!


You do not say we have 50% support.  You say we have the support of X amount of opticians.

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## Refractingoptician.com

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## Refractingoptician.com

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## seeingclearlynow

> 50% support is pretty good. You are saying that 1000 or something opticians are supporting this cause.
> 
> I know recently the Health Unit here has been promoting fluoride in the water and brought it to City Hall. It named 15 dentists who support the cause. That is far less than 50% of the dentists in town.


 I think the ministry of health would know what percentage a number quoted would be from the total number of opticians. The fact is ODs have 85% membership, nurses have 93% membership, hygenists have almost 100% membership.

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## For-Life

> I think the ministry of health would know what percentage a number quoted would be from the total number of opticians. The fact is ODs have 85% membership, nurses have 93% membership, hygenists have almost 100% membership.


I doubt the Ministry of Health and Long Term Care would have the numbers of licensed Opticians on hand.  I work for a Crown Corporation off of the MOHLTC, and trust me, those guys do not have or would look for that info.  Does not matter either way, because 50% is still a lot of people.  

Either way, why are excuses being made for why the Association cannot be the voice for Ontario Opticians, and yet people are asking Opticians to join?  Basically saying "join us so we can be your voice, even though we do not have the power to be your voice."

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## seeingclearlynow

I think the MOH would know how many opticians are registered with the COO.
the question is do you want the OOA to be the voice of opticians in Ontario, if yes than you would join and work as a volunteer to help the other volunteers who work on the Association. afterall it is your a association and you get a voice, if you are a member.
if you don't join than you don't have a right to complaint. it is like voting in an election, if you vote for a party and they let you down than you have the right to complain. If you don't vote and don't take part in the process, you don't have the right to complain.

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## eyemanflying

[QUOTE=afterall it is your a association and you get a voice, if you are a member.  [/QUOTE]

We need an association and college that provides *ACTION*, not a voice.  Currently, the only opinions the college can provide is which merlot goes best with filet mignon.   

While all of this illegal nonsense continues, the OOA walks around on eggshells while the COO has their head in the sand and now comes up with the new birdbrain idea and proposes that opticians' CE credits now have to be 60 minutes in duration to qualify instead of the current 45 minutes???

Are you kidding me???  Now for sure I will need a pair of those glasses with the eyeballs painted on while I now fall asleep at those boring seminars. Are we even learning anything from these mundane topics and presenters?  

Shouldn't these other more important issues on hand take precedence over everything else?  

Shouldn't we find a resolution and put these issues to bed?

I'm going to develop a CE course on how to take legal action against illegal companies/activities and win and submit it to the COO for accreditation.

I understand the OOA's political position and the fact they have no voice or balls.

But, it's time the COO removed their rose coloured glasses, put down their wine glasses, found some direction and took some action.  They are simply a boat with a small crack in the hull floating aimlessly in the middle of the sea, no compass to provide direction, Stevie Wonder at the helm and one heck of a storm on the horizon.

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## For-Life

You know, I think the Association needs to look at politicians.  Have you ever heard the a politician say "vote for me and I will act as your voice, but I am not going to tell you what to do and if I do not get enough votes I really will not do much."  No, I politician says "this is what I am going to do, and I need your votes to make it happen."

So if people become members, what will the Association do for them?

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## Refractingoptician.com

In defense of the association they are good people who donate their time free . 

BUT there needs to be strikes and organized protests and work stoppages and protests outside of courthouses and Parliament buildings . And refuse to pay COO any more renewal fees until there is legislation in place to stop this degrading problem . 

EYEMANS' analysis is correct, in my opinion. 

The Continuing education changes are absolute nonsense . Most of the changes and things the COO works on just fills up their day and stops anything useful being done . 

Eyefairs and free school sight testing and motorcycle rides are not going to solve todays problems.

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## eyemanflying

> In defense of the association they are good people who donate their time free . 
> 
> BUT there needs to be strikes and organized protests and work stoppages and protests outside of courthouses and Parliament buildings . And refuse to pay COO any more renewal fees until there is legislation in place to stop this degrading problem . 
> 
> EYEMANS' analysis is correct, in my opinion. 
> 
> The Continuing education changes are absolute nonsense . Most of the changes and things the COO works on just fills up their day and stops anything useful being done . 
> 
> Eyefairs and free school sight testing and motorcycle rides are not going to solve todays problems.


:cheers:

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## seeingclearlynow

now i get it, you are a "wanna be poet". since you have all the answers why don't you get off *** and do something about it? i know that actually requires more work than talk and so far you have only been able to impress everyone with your parables. i amazes me how you always blame the COO and OOA of the same thing, how are these two organizations connected? the COO council members are elected by opticians and get paid hefty dollars for their work or lack there of. the OOA directors are nominated by their peers and do volunteer work on behalf of opticians, i know a few of the directors and many of them are store owners themselves and these issues that you raise effect them as much as they effect you. they sacrifice there own businesses for the sake of the profession, why do you make it seem like they have something to gain by allowing illegal dispensing? what is your motive? what do you have to gain by bad mouthing others? the other person that bad mouths the OOA as much you do runs his own Continuing Education seminars, so we know he does for financial gain. who do you work for? and what do you have to gain?

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## Refractingoptician.com

> now i get it, you are a "wanna be poet". since you have all the answers why don't you get off *** and do something about it? i know that actually requires more work than talk and so far you have only been able to impress everyone with your parables. i amazes me how you always blame the COO and OOA of the same thing, how are these two organizations connected? the COO council members are elected by opticians and get paid hefty dollars for their work or lack there of. the OOA directors are nominated by their peers and do volunteer work on behalf of opticians, i know a few of the directors and many of them are store owners themselves and these issues that you raise effect them as much as they effect you. they sacrifice there own businesses for the sake of the profession, why do you make it seem like they have something to gain by allowing illegal dispensing? what is your motive? what do you have to gain by bad mouthing others? the other person that bad mouths the OOA as much you do runs his own Continuing Education seminars, so we know he does for financial gain. who do you work for? and what do you have to gain?


 
OK Fine . Have it your way . With no legislative change then there will be more GG's tomorrow and more internet sellers too . Read the transcripts of the court cases until you realize the futility of burying your heads in the sand. 

AND I am not against COO or OOA or WHOO-a- ever you think I am against. They are dedicated , good intentioned people who are on the wrong path and yet they stick to methods that have not worked successfully in the past ten years and realistically they have not worked successfully in the past 30 years that I have been an optician. 

You can not even tell me one specific thing that these organisations are prepared to do to solve these problems .

They are quite willing to keep making changes to things that are not broken because that is easier than dealing with the problems that do need fixing which they have no clue as to how to fix . 

If you think I am wrong about that then go ask them how they intend to specifically fix these problems . 

I at least do have some affirmative suggstions . 

My methods do not even cost you any money .

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## Refractingoptician.com

> .... the other person that bad mouths the OOA as much you do runs his own Continuing Education seminars, so we know he does for financial gain. who do you work for? and what do you have to gain?


In the face of positive suggestions, it is incredible that you take such offense . I do not offer to charge you $$ for workable solutions ,but , the association would want to charge me to follow in their old path that is clearly not working . I do not take money from you for anything and I admit that the volunteers are good, well intenioned, hard working ,people . Yet you take offense . 

My question to you is simple "What will you specifically do to stop these problems, even if you had full membership ?" The fact is you do not have any answers . But you still cry "crisis and catastrophe coming , join now and be heard ,,, but you never say what words are going to come out of that "voice" ,,, you never say how you are going to solve anything . As Eyemanflying said "you have a bad case of laryngitis". 

I don't need more liability insurance . I don't need free coffee and dinner and ball room dancing . I am not interested in a social club. I don't have a motorcycle to go on your ride . 

I do not mislead people and charge them $ 800.00 for renewal fees on the false illusion of purchasing a yearly franchise for a protected territory . 

And these problems can be solved with no money . Stop writing checks to these people , stop taking MCSS that is over 25 years out of date , and you are going to get attention . The newspapers are going to come to you and the advertising is going to be free . 

As for the other group you speak of , the real problem that I see, is that you are jealous of it's success . If we are on the same page , the other group is equally hard working and dedicated and it is extremely well run and professional. Admit it . Suck it up and get over it . While you were snoozing , they were building a successful operation . You lost . Learn from it . 

What you have right now is incredible bickering amongst 3 groups and not one of them has a workable solution to old problems . 

And interestingly you do not want to listen to a suggestion that might work .

It is clear that you do want my money though . I guess you are no different than the other organisation you berate . Oh, and are you both not in the same continuing education business ?

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## seeingclearlynow

> :cheers:


 Organize the strikes and i will be there, how many more opticians do you think will show?

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## Refractingoptician.com

> Organize the strikes and i will be there, how many more opticians do you think will show?


If COO and OOA and the other group ask  their members to , then my guess is that most of them will . They  do have the ability to put it together .

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## seeingclearlynow

now you sound like  a politician, who says everything and does absolutely nothing. you make assumptions about who I am. i will tell you who I am. i am a hard working optician who runs his own dispensary (legally). i pay my college dues and i pay association dues. i speak to my MPP about changing regulations and if i have a problem with my association i tell them and help them work on it. I am a member and therefore it is my association, if something is not working i try to best of my abilties to fix it. i am intelegent enough to put on my own Con Ed seminars and make money off opticians in Ontario, but what good would that do to the profession. a profession is only as strong as their association. it is people like you who have a whole lot to say but no action to back it up, as well as the other group who are only in it to make money for themselves that weaken the profession. *YES, IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE THIS PROFESSION WEAK.* Is that loud enough for you?
it is very simple, you want to work for your profession, join your association and volunteer to lobby the government for change of regulation. i doubt that you will since you are all talk and no action, you are all bark and no bite, should i keep going i have a million of them.

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## For-Life

I just do not get all of this.  You are asking people to join you, you are asking them for money, and you are proposing to do nothing with that.  Then you blame us, like we are the problem.  So when we were former members and nothing was voiced for us, why should we have kept sponsoring you?

So do not get upset with me or any other poster over this.  Do not blame us for the Association not doing what members are paying it to do.


The funny thing is my original idea when responding to this thread was a desire to hear someone tell me where they have been a voice.  But what I have heard since then has been rather scary.

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## eyemanflying

[QUOTE=seeingclearlynow;296123]now i get it, you are a "wanna be poet". since you have all the answers why don't you get off *** and do something about it? i know that actually requires more work than talk and so far you have only been able to impress everyone with your parables. i amazes me how you always blame the COO and OOA of the same thing, how are these two organizations connected? the COO council members are elected by opticians and get paid hefty dollars for their work or lack there of. the OOA directors are nominated by their peers and do volunteer work on behalf of opticians, i know a few of the directors and many of them are store owners themselves and these issues that you raise effect them as much as they effect you. they sacrifice there own businesses for the sake of the profession, why do you make it seem like they have something to gain by allowing illegal dispensing? what is your motive? what do you have to gain by bad mouthing others? the other person that bad mouths the OOA as much you do runs his own Continuing Education seminars, so we know he does for financial gain. who do you work for? and what do you have to gain?[/QU

Who are you replying to??? Make yourself clear see clearly.

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## eyemanflying

> In the face of positive suggestions, it is incredible that you take such offense . I do not offer to charge you $$ for workable solutions ,but , the association would want to charge me to follow in their old path that is clearly not working . I do not take money from you for anything and I admit that the volunteers are good, well intenioned, hard working ,people . Yet you take offense . 
> 
> My question to you is simple "What will you specifically do to stop these problems, even if you had full membership ?" The fact is you do not have any answers . But you still cry "crisis and catastrophe coming , join now and be heard ,,, but you never say what words are going to come out of that "voice" ,,, you never say how you are going to solve anything . As Eyemanflying said "you have a bad case of laryngitis". 
> 
> I don't need more liability insurance . I don't need free coffee and dinner and ball room dancing . I am not interested in a social club. I don't have a motorcycle to go on your ride . 
> 
> I do not mislead people and charge them $ 800.00 for renewal fees on the false illusion of purchasing a yearly franchise for a protected territory . 
> 
> And these problems can be solved with no money . Stop writing checks to these people , stop taking MCSS that is over 25 years out of date , and you are going to get attention . The newspapers are going to come to you and the advertising is going to be free . 
> ...


:cheers:

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## eyemanflying

> Organize the strikes and i will be there, how many more opticians do you think will show?


Remember this...there are more non-members than members.  Lead by example and maybe you will have strength by numbers.

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## seeingclearlynow

> I just do not get all of this. You are asking people to join you, you are asking them for money, and you are proposing to do nothing with that. Then you blame us, like we are the problem. So when we were former members and nothing was voiced for us, why should we have kept sponsoring you?
> 
> So do not get upset with me or any other poster over this. Do not blame us for the Association not doing what members are paying it to do.
> 
> 
> The funny thing is my original idea when responding to this thread was a desire to hear someone tell me where they have been a voice. But what I have heard since then has been rather scary.


You see, you are so self centered that you think everyone else is. I am not asking people to join me, this has nothing to do with me, and it has nothing to do with you, I know its hard to believe it has nothing to do with you, step out of yourself and start thinking about your profession. This is much bigger than the both of us, and when people like you stop thinking about themselves for a change and start thinking about their profession change will happen. I know for a fact that the volunteers on the OOA are trying their best; they might not be perfect, like you are, feeling the sarcasm? They sacrifice their work and family life to work on behalf of the profession, with all their faults they have kept the profession regulated and fought against illegal dispensing, in the early eighties they fought for opticians to be able to fit contact lenses and now they fight for opticians to be able to refract. If the supreme court of Ontario was not able to close GG down, what makes you think the OOA can? Hold on the truth does not matter to you, it is not about the truth, and it is about mouthing off and hearing yourself talk.
Whatever the OOA lobbies for and whatever advances they make for the profession, every optician in Ontario will reap the benefit, members and non-members.
The reason that the things that you have heard are scary is because you only listen to yourself and that is scarry. What I have said are true and the truth obviously scares the hell out of you.
get off that big butt of yours and do something productive for your profession for a change and stop blabbing.
 :cheers:
you still owe me one.

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## For-Life

> You see, you are so self centered that you think everyone else is. I am not asking people to join me, this has nothing to do with me, and it has nothing to do with you, I know its hard to believe it has nothing to do with you, step out of yourself and start thinking about your profession. This is much bigger than the both of us, and when people like you stop thinking about themselves for a change and start thinking about their profession change will happen. I know for a fact that the volunteers on the OOA are trying their best; they might not be perfect, like you are, feeling the sarcasm? They sacrifice their work and family life to work on behalf of the profession, with all their faults they have kept the profession regulated and fought against illegal dispensing, in the early eighties they fought for opticians to be able to fit contact lenses and now they fight for opticians to be able to refract. If the supreme court of Ontario was not able to close GG down, what makes you think the OOA can? Hold on the truth does not matter to you, it is not about the truth, and it is about mouthing off and hearing yourself talk.
> Whatever the OOA lobbies for and whatever advances they make for the profession, every optician in Ontario will reap the benefit, members and non-members.
> The reason that the things that you have heard are scary is because you only listen to yourself and that is scarry. What I have said are true and the truth obviously scares the hell out of you.
> get off that big butt of yours and do something productive for your profession for a change and stop blabbing.
>  :cheers:
> you still owe me one.


dude, I am not even in the optical field anymore.  I have been out of it for two years now, working on a different level.  I am looking out for my friends and family that are opticians.  If I was self centred, I would not be doing that.

You are the ones asking for people to join the Association, give them concrete reasons to do so.  Stop asking for support and then telling us that the Association cannot do anything.  If this is true, then why should people join the Association?  Give them a reason.

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## seeingclearlynow

Dude? you are calling me DUDE?
To use an old adage do not ask what your association can do for you, but ask what can I do for my profession
All associations need membership to succeed, and members what benefits from their associations. For any association to be successful they need a majority membership from their profession. If that is too hard for you to understand than this conversation is over.

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## For-Life

> Dude? you are calling me DUDE?
> To use an old adage do not ask what your association can do for you, but ask what can I do for my profession
> All associations need membership to succeed, and members what benefits from their associations. For any association to be successful they need a majority membership from their profession. If that is too hard for you to understand than this conversation is over.


Okay, professions can do what they should for their profession, but at the same time, then why should they join an association that cannot tell them what they will do for them?  If you believe that professions should work to change the system on their own, then do not get upset when they o not see a point in joining an association.

I understand this completely.  You have yet to tell me what the advantages are with joining the association.  Until the association provides advantages, people will not join for you to get your majority membership.  

So again, why should Opticians join the Association?

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## renee1111

For-life is right, people need reasons to support you! I was a member of the association up until this year. I joined the society of eyecare professionals instead, they offer a vision, a passion for the profession that I very much respect. 
seeingclearlynow you should look at this thread as not a threat to your association but as an opportunity to share with us the action plan you have in store. We would all love to hear it!

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## eyemanflying

> Dude? you are calling me DUDE?
> To use an old adage “do not ask what your association can do for you, but ask what can I do for my profession”
> All associations need membership to succeed, and members what benefits from their associations. For any association to be successful they need a majority membership from their profession. If that is too hard for you to understand than this conversation is over.


Dude, dudette, himaphrodite...whatever you call yourself; cut the good squeaky clean image nonsense. 

In your total of lifetime of 7 posts, it's obvious you're young, inexperienced, mislead, misinformed and have drank the kool-aid...

I'm in my 25th year in the industry and read right throught that garbage. Nobody on this thread or forum is going to buy the crap you're promoting and selling.

We've all been on that bandwagon in the parade at some point in our careers only to be continuously let down and disappointed...and it continues...

We need ACTION, not voices or broken promises.

And let it be known...none of us are disgruntled; we are extremely disappointed. And by the way, spend some time sifting though the history throughout this forum and you will find the best damn people out there fully dedicated to their profession.

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## seeingclearlynow

> For-life is right, people need reasons to support you! I was a member of the association up until this year. I joined the society of eyecare professionals instead, they offer a vision, a passion for the profession that I very much respect. 
> seeingclearlynow you should look at this thread as not a threat to your association but as an opportunity to share with us the action plan you have in store. We would all love to hear it!


 what is the eyecare professionals vision? what is their passion? is Mr. Khan's a little too small for his family and need to mave to a bigger one. Is his car a little domistic and needs a new Mercedes?
He has his son on the executive of the same college that you guys think is ruining our profession, he passes the regulations that you guys don't agree with. they just passed a new regulation where we all need to get 40 credits every 2 years. Now he and his father could make even more money off you opticians who think the people who volunteer their time are working against your profession and the ones who are getting rich off you are working for your good. It is a sad state that our profession has gotten to. The people who were charged with illegal dispensing many years ago are now putting on seminars for you lowly opticians so they can get rich off your hard earned $25.00 per hour job. SAD SAD SAD.

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## Refractingoptician.com

> what is the eyecare professionals vision? what is their passion? is Mr. Khan's a little too small for his family and need to mave to a bigger one. Is his car a little domistic and needs a new Mercedes?
> He has his son on the executive of the same college that you guys think is ruining our profession, he passes the regulations that you guys don't agree with. they just passed a new regulation where we all need to get 40 credits every 2 years. Now he and his father could make even more money off you opticians who think the people who volunteer their time are working against your profession and the ones who are getting rich off you are working for your good. It is a sad state that our profession has gotten to. The people who were charged with illegal dispensing many years ago are now putting on seminars for you lowly opticians so they can get rich off your hard earned $25.00 per hour job. SAD SAD SAD.


 
DO NOT turn this into a bashing . Do Not do this . We have asked you to tell us specifically what the association intends to do . You still do not answer and now you are getting incredibly rude to a person who does not deserve it . He is every bit as hard working as any volunteer . 

If you can not offer a solution then you are indeed part of the problem . Read your own posts . You have nothing to say and no solution to offer , not even a hare brained atttempt . Go back and think before you open your mouth.

----------


## eyemanflying

Another moron with nothing of substance.  Just ignore it.

----------


## seeingclearlynow

Oh yes Mr. substance,
I will not lower myself to calling you names, as you have done. If you have substance and you have ideas than there is a forum where you, and the emphasis here is on YOU, can make them work. It is called the OOA. if you think there is another forum where you could make them work go ahead and do it, but it is obvious that there is not, if there was you would have done it by now.
i am not asking you to support me, for i do not need your support, your profession needs your support, if you feel that you are doing that for your profession, than your job is done. there are those of us who feel that there is alot more work to be done for this profession to be successful and we will work at it with and without you. in the end we will make sure this profession moves forward.

----------


## Comma

As an quick intermission in this debate...

I'm one of your neighbours. It will be easy for you to know where I'm coming from, look at my multiple mistakes in the present text... :D
But I hate eating frog's legs  :Rolleyes: 

Looks like that's about the same situation everywhere.

I think all opticians MUST begin with little steps first, because it has a real long time result. Politicians are also real people first.
Why not educating real people first ?
I'm proud to educate almost every people I met about what I'm doing, outside and inside my job. I'm always surprised by the way people are interested. PUBLIC IGNORANCE is our main problem.

Some exemples :Many years ago, I had a discussion with one of my wife's friend about being an optician and other aspects of it. Today that person is a MP... Today, when he read something about us, he can understand us without any judgement. HE KNOWS. If, one day, our stupid PM decide to take a stupid decision about us, someone will, I hope, stand up and speak about what we were discussing about many years ago. Oh I forgot : he wears eyeglasses and he is very picky about it...  :Nerd: 

Some time ago, one of my friend start posting information on free websites about our profession, description, reserved acts, illegal practice and so on. Within 6 months, he had over 2500 visitors and more than 200 emails. He answered each question these people were asking.  I'm sure almost each person talk about it to many other people. THEY KNOW BETTER NOW

All these people do not see their eyeglasses as only fashion "things" now.

Unfortunately, very few opticians where I live do this.
They prefer complaining and just receive their paychecks.

I'm not against any kind of associations as long as it is composed by people who know how to do small steps before running. They would also have the aptitude of showing our ignorant politicians (who could blame them ? nobody has ever educate them about optics) to learn a bit more about us.

I know I'm a bit off topic, but that was my 2 Canadian cents ($0.016 US)

----------


## eyemanflying

> Oh yes Mr. substance,
> I will not lower myself to calling you names, as you have done. If you have substance and you have ideas than there is a forum where you, and the emphasis here is on YOU, can make them work. It is called the OOA. if you think there is another forum where you could make them work go ahead and do it, but it is obvious that there is not, if there was you would have done it by now.
> i am not asking you to support me, for i do not need your support, your profession needs your support, if you feel that you are doing that for your profession, than your job is done. there are those of us who feel that there is alot more work to be done for this profession to be successful and we will work at it with and without you. in the end we will make sure this profession moves forward.


It seems as though you are humming with your fingers in your ears and are not understanding...

I DO support my profession and are STILL a member of the OOA for the past 15 years. I'm puzzled as to why though. Read through the first few posts...

Other than cheaper insurance, car rental rates and blah blah blah...(by the way, these days every group membership offers the same thing and is no longer unique), they do nothing to make the profession successful; hence the frustration. We are not against the profession, we are FOR it.

As a member, I have sat on the picket fence long enough only to be disapponted without results while the COO turns a blind eye to illegal activities happening within our industry which can and will eventually cause harm to the public and wastes their time developing nonsense and changing things that are already just fine. Eventually, sitting on a picket fence really starts to hurt.

And the OOA seems like nothing more than a quarterly industry newsletter with politics and classifieds. When is the last time anything innovative was launched where opticians raised an eyebrow? When is the last time they ever took a stand for US?

The last big campaign they had was to waste most of our money on expensive advertising to the general public telling them that their prescription was their property. What a ridiculous, ineffective campaign that was.

Rather than try to bridge the relationship with the two O's, this campaign only further aggravated and worsened the relationship while making our profession look silly and bush league. The general public do not know the difference nor do they care about our politics. 

I fully understand and absolutely appreciate that dedicated individuals from within our industry that donate their own time to assist and make a difference. But, this isn't about that. I don't care how they operate; all I want is an association that can find their voice and take ACTION. Maybe then they can achieve 97% enrollment.

There are many ways to gift wrap garbage, add a bow and make it look nice and pretty. But deep down inside no matter how you present it...it still smells because it is still garbage.

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

[QUOTE=eyemanflying;296225]

I DO support my profession ...........


 We are not against the profession, we are FOR it...........


 I fully understand and absolutely appreciate that dedicated individuals from within our industry that donate their own time to assist and make a difference. But, this isn't about that. I don't care how they operate; all I want is an association that can find their voice and take ACTION. Maybe then they can achieve 97% enrollment....................

QUOTE]


:cheers::cheers:

----------


## renee1111

> i am not asking you to support me, for i do not need your support, your profession needs your support, if you feel that you are doing that for your profession, than your job is done.


You still haven't answered the simple question we are all asking. WHY SHOULD WE SUPPORT YOU? 
I want to know everything that you will do and that needs to be done. please fill in the blanks and list them here:
The OOA has the intention of:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9
10.
.
Enough with the name calling, we want some answers!


PS..:cheers: to eyeman and refracting optician!!

----------


## renee1111

Seriously..12hrs and still nothing?

----------


## eyemanflying

> Seriously..12hrs and still nothing?


 
LOL...should we be surprised?:)

----------


## eyemanflying

I would have expected at least 3 things on that list.

----------


## LandLord

Opticians don't want an association to protect them from future fears.  They want a union to get a raise for them in todays dollars.

----------


## eyemanflying

> Opticians don't want an association to protect them from future fears. They want a union to get a raise for them in todays dollars.


Speak for yourself.  This debate isn't about fair wages and equality; it's about coming out from under the rock and stepping up to the plate.

The last thing we need right now is a union.

What we need is a *real* association...one with a strong voice, courage and takes ACTION.  We are batting 0 for 3.

----------


## For-Life

Yeah, I never once brought up wage increases.  Actually, from what I have seen, Ontario Opticians get compensated well.  I talked about competition law and online business.

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

WE are still waiting for the specifics .... anytime now .

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

> WE are still waiting for the specifics .... anytime now .


 
Is laryngitis spreading ? Did Godin33 drink the koolaid ?

----------


## renee1111

Here's a link to some of the answers you seek.... http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...405&topic=7810

----------


## eyemanflying

> is laryngitis spreading ? Did godin33 drink the koolaid ?


lol

----------


## Jana Lewis

Wow! You Canadians are a feisty bunch! :D

----------


## eyemanflying

> Wow! You Canadians are a feisty bunch! :D


Thanks!  ;)

----------


## godin33

Sorry guys!  
I got a little busy over the last couple of days.......
Again, I want to stress......I don't work for, nor do I  volunteer for the OOA........ 
At the Last Inside Optics show I attended, Ali struck a chord, he got me wondering......why doesn't the OOA have more support......
Thats basically why I wanted to start this Thread...... to start talking about a membership drive........ why should you join........ why won't you join........ 
I thought this would be a good way to get things out in the open.......... to show the Association what we need as Opticians....... and to show the Association who we want representing us.........
I'll be honest with all of you........I'm slightly disappointed.  Not in the way this Thread has gone, but in the fact that the Association hasn't given any indication as to what they'll do with more support......

----------


## For-Life

I had an interesting dinner the other night.  Went to my parent's house.  They own an optical store and my father is an optician.  I asked him if he is still a member, which he is.  I asked him what they do for his membership.  We had a similar debate to what we have had here.

Less pettiness though, to be honest

----------


## eyemanflying

> I had an interesting dinner the other night. Went to my parent's house. They own an optical store and my father is an optician. I asked him if he is still a member, which he is. I asked him what they do for his membership. We had a similar debate to what we have had here.
> 
> Less pettiness though, to be honest


All the OOA has to do is...

1. Take off the furry lion's costume and pop a courage pill.

2. Chew on a Fisherman's Friend to get their voice back that has been silent for so long.

3. Take the cotton out of their ears.

4. Bleach the rose coloured tint from their eyewear.

5. Get out of bed with the COO.

6. Recognize that they are a professional organization and their main purpose is to represent its' professional members.

7. Recognize that their members have lost faith and that enrollment is declining.

8. Acknowledge to their members the important issues and illegal activity at hand.

9. Develop a mass communication channel (not Facebook - bush league) by sending out a regular newsletter or email to its' members communicating the status of these current issues. 

10. Develop and list a detailed action plan as to how we are going to combat this and preserve our profession.


The future result of a fight can never be determined.  Hopefully you win.  But one thing is certain...even if you lose, you have gained the respect of your peers and your profession just for stepping up to the plate.  

Along with many others I'm sure, would be obliged to step aboard that parade float.   

:cheers:

----------


## renee1111

> Sorry guys! 
> I got a little busy over the last couple of days.......
> Again, I want to stress......I don't work for, nor do I volunteer for the OOA........ 
> At the Last Inside Optics show I attended, Ali struck a chord, he got me wondering......why doesn't the OOA have more support......
> Thats basically why I wanted to start this Thread...... to start talking about a membership drive........ why should you join........ why won't you join........ 
> I thought this would be a good way to get things out in the open.......... to show the Association what we need as Opticians....... and to show the Association who we want representing us.........
> I'll be honest with all of you........I'm slightly disappointed. Not in the way this Thread has gone, but in the fact that the Association hasn't given any indication as to what they'll do with more support......


I know what you mean! I too, am slightly disillusioned by the lack of communication from this group. To tell you the truth, I never really gave it a second thought; I just paid my dues and expected that my interests were taken care of. This has opened my eyes to the politics of it all. 
So I said earlier that I was proud of being part of the society of eyecare professionals....then I get this fax yesterday morning...(see attachment) Seems like there's an all out war between associations. I'm thinking "Is this really what's best for our profession?" Fighting like children, pointing fingers and accusing one another of only doing it for the financial gain? Unbelievable! Now I'm really confused!

----------


## renee1111

Sorry about the attachment, I can't figure out how to properly do it...so this is what it says:




> *URGENT BULLETIN**COLLEGE OF OPTICIANS AND ONTARIO OPTICIANS ASSOCIATION SIT ON* *VITAL REFRACTION NEWS* 
> At the May 20, 2009 Council meeting, the topic of refraction was brought up and discussed at some length. Apparently, the College of Opticians met with the Ministry of Health in February of 2009, almost 3 months ago, regarding refractions performed by Opticians.
> 
> Comments were made to the effect that the College of Opticians had acted unilaterally and disregarded a July 2008 letter to President Jeff Fernandes stating that the Ministry had not changed its position and that the Ban on Refraction still remains in effect. The COO had temporarily put an administrative freeze on registering refracting Opticians until the September 2008 council meeting. The Society had brought you this information via fax broadcast last summer.
> In September of 2008, council chose to ignore this advice from the Ministry and chose to resume registering refracting opticians.
> 
> In February of 2009, members of the executive met with the Ministry where they were told, in no uncertain terms, that the Ministry was not happy with the College and that they wish for the administrative freeze to be put back in place as the Ministrys position remains unchanged. The Ministry did say that the small number of refracting opticians who already had their status could continue to refract under the Standards of Practice.
> 
> It also came to light that Ali Baddredine, the Associations President, was aware of this situation. He acknowledged meeting with Ministrys Policy Advisor, Abid Malik, and that he was aware that the Ministry wanted the freeze put back on refraction. What was more interesting was that Mr. Baddredine berated certain College members for demanding that the COO communicate these events to the Opticians of Ontario sooner than later.
> ...

----------


## eyemanflying

Until such a time that Ontario opticians will be legally able to perform a refraction (if ever), there should not be any type of refracting course available to opticians by any educational college, institution or association.

Offering refraction courses before it is even approved is nothing more than a money grab and puts the cart before the horse. This type of arrogant assuming behaviour only worsens our relationships with the Ministry of Health and College of Optometrists and certainly does not help our cause.

And as far as the Khan Group's Association Society of Eyecare Professionals goes...they are self serving and have a hidden agenda so Caveat Emptor to all that support this group.

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

> Until such a time that Ontario opticians will be legally able to perform a refraction (if ever), there should not be any type of refracting course available to opticians by any educational college, institution or association.
> 
> Offering refraction courses before it is even approved is nothing more than a money grab and puts the cart before the horse. This type of arrogant assuming behaviour only worsens our relationships with the Ministry of Health and College of Optometrists and certainly does not help our cause.
> 
> And as far as the Khan Group's Association Society of Eyecare Professionals goes...they are self serving and have a hidden agenda so Caveat Emptor to all that support this group.


My take on this is :
(1) There is nothing wrong with learning refraction for people that want to . There is nothing wrong with anyone offering courses in refraction . There is also nothing wrong with Opticians taking courses in electricity, welding , gourmet cooking , or a thousand other things . There is nothing wrong with schools, Colleges or Universities offering courses in any subject whatsoever . 

There is something wrong with discrimination and violation of the Charter of Rights . That is a big time No No ! 


(2) Learning refraction is more relevenat to opticians than teaching them cataract surgery techniques at seminars for continung education . Will the Ministry forbid this too ? 

(3) The Ministry has no ----- right whatsoever, to tell opticians that they can not take refraction courses and they have absolutely no right to violate the Charter of Rights . In my opinion they had no right to tell opticians to refrain from refraction a few years ago .

Refraction is in the public domain and ANYONE CAN DO IT ...ANYONE . This is not something that the Ministry governs and they have overstepped their authority . The only part they can govern is "prescribing " and what can be done with the results obtained from refraction . THAT IS IT.... PERIOD !!!

Perhaps they should seek a legal opinion . I am sure Mr B can offer an opinion on this . 

(4 ) Therefore, I applaud the President of the Association and COO for taking a stand of resistance against the lunacy and two facedness of an overstepping antiquated Ministry who still, in my humble opinion, owe every individual optician a sincere and individual apology for violating the Charter of Rights, which is what they did by discriminating against opticians by telling them they could not refract. 

In my humble opinion , bully tactics are bully tactics . 

Refraction is in the public Domain , the Ministry does not have any control over it . If they think they do then it is time they changed the legislation to reflect their wrong beliefs , in my humble opinion. 

(5) Eyemanflying , would you like it if as an optician , the Ministry told you that you can not learn to fly ? Who is wrong here ? Who is right to resist and object ? Did you want someone to have some courage ? Eyeman , I think you seriously need to rethink this . 

It can't be both ways .

(6) In my humble opinion , the fax letter above referred to as the Khan letter is just stirring the pot . I am not impressed with that letter , in fact I am extremely disappointed .

(7) The Ministry of Health needs a wake up call ! MAYBE THEY WOULD LIKE TO REPEAL THEIR WAGES & pensions TO LEVELs OF 25 YEARS AGO JUST LIKE THEIR OVER 25 YEAR OLD MCSS fee schedule ! 

Before opticians , the COO or the OOA or Khan's group , even consider any ridiculous demands re : refraction from the Ministry , they should collectively stand proud and tall together to deliver this unified message to the Ministry as an ultimatum " Roll back your own wages to 25 years ago or update the MCSS fee schedule to reflect 2009 dollars ! " 

It is time we were in the drivers seat and stiffened up . No more of this roll over and play dead wimp stuff .

Are we self governing or puppets on a string  ?

----------


## eyemanflying

> (5) Eyemanflying , would you like it if as an optician , the Ministry told you that you can not learn to fly ? Who is wrong here ? Who is right to resist and object ? Did you want someone to have some courage ? Eyeman , I think you seriously need to rethink this . 
> 
> It can't be both ways .


There are different issues at hand here...let's not mix and confuse them.

I am in favour of refraction but...I don't feel we are being discriminated at all by the MOH.  Let's put ourselves in the MOH's shoes for a moment...when there is already a willing and able qualified group available to perform refractions and is working quite well, what incentive is there for the MOH to change this?  Why would they waste time they don't have to reinvent the wheel?  

The fact of the matter is that the COO hasn't done a stellar job in selling their proposal on refraction.  If they had, the MOH would be buying.

Nobody has ever said we can't enroll in a refraction course to further our knowledge.  But, herein lies the problems...

When we are constantly fighting and pressuring the MOH to accept our proposal and they keep saying no, we are simply starting to annoy them.

What happens if you constantly poke a stick at a bear while it rests in it's den?  At first nothing, but eventually it will become furious and strike.

Now, when two educational Colleges draft and develop a refraction course and start offering it to a group that isn't even legally entitled to perform it, this is very assuming and cocky and only worsens the potential sale to the MOH.  It certainly doesn't help our cause. 

We are not talking flying lessons here.  Here lies the confusion...opticians aren't taking these courses simply to expand their knowledge.  We are being overly optimistic and overzealous while being misled with the assumption refracting will be approved very soon.  Hence the money grab from the Colleges.  Here we all are while we continue to sit and wait and wait and wait...

To further worsen our cause, some opticians have already taken and passed this course; kudos to them.  But, some opticians feel the law doesn't apply to them as they have already started to perform their own refractions because they are sick and tired of waiting for a decision from the MOH.  Now, we are slowly all becoming another version of Bruce Bergez and beginning to cannibalize each other.

We need to sit tight, be patient and be respectful.  In the meantime, refraction shouldn't even be at the top of the COO's list of objectives.  Last time I checked, there were much bigger fish to fry.

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

> There are different issues at hand here...let's not mix and confuse them.
> 
> I am in favour of refraction but...I don't feel we are being discriminated at all by the MOH. Let's put ourselves in the MOH's shoes for a moment...when there is already a willing and able qualified group available to perform refractions and is working quite well, what incentive is there for the MOH to change this? Why would they waste time they don't have to reinvent the wheel? 
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the COO hasn't done a stellar job in selling their proposal on refraction. If they had, the MOH would be buying.
> 
> Nobody has ever said we can't enroll in a refraction course to further our knowledge. But, herein lies the problems...
> 
> When we are constantly fighting and pressuring the MOH to accept our proposal and they keep saying no, we are simply starting to annoy them.
> ...


 
Well said and atriculate and I even agreee, but I am tired of learning about subjects that have no interest to me in continuing education . I would like to learn to refract as opposed to any other subject matters out there , therefore I am not interested in idiots who would like to try to govern things that they have no jurisdiction over  and who would like to violate the Charter of Rights with their discrimination and bully tactics .

Perhaps MOH should begin with finding a solution to chains that break all the rules with no respect . At least MOH should respect the pathway that is offered to educate opticians .  

The path that MOH is presently following is no diffferent than the path The College of Optomerists folllowed with IRIS . MOH is no better than the College of Optometrists with their Charter violations , in my opinion. 

I think it is time all parties saw some organized resistance to this nonsense.

----------


## eyemanflying

> Well said and atriculate and I even agreee, but I am tired of learning about subjects that have no interest to me in continuing education . I would like to learn to refract as opposed to any other subject matters out there , therefore I am not interested in idiots who would like to try to govern things that they have no jurisdiction over and who would like to violate the Charter of Rights with their discrimination and bully tactics .
> 
> Perhaps MOH should begin with finding a solution to chains that break all the rules with no respect . At least MOH should respect the pathway that is offered to educate opticians . 
> 
> The path that MOH is presently following is no diffferent than the path The College of Optomerists folllowed with IRIS . MOH is no better than the College of Optometrists with their Charter violations , in my opinion. 
> 
> I think it is time all parties saw some organized resistance to this nonsense.


I agree about the CE courses being boring and of no interest or value.

:cheers:

----------


## tmorse

> The path that MOH is presently following is no diffferent than the path The College of Optomerists folllowed with IRIS . MOH is no better than the College of Optometrists with their Charter violations , in my opinion.


Where can I read about IRIS's specific claims of Charter violations? :Confused:

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

> Where can I read about IRIS's specific claims of Charter violations?


Call Iris . Call BC College of Optometrists or was it Alberta ?  I believe it was based on the freedom to associate aspect

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

> Where can I read about IRIS's specific claims of Charter violations?


 
You can call IRIS they will even put you on their mailing list to keep you abreast. 

Also read http://news.therecord.com/Business/article/274888

Optometry regulations stink . It is unbelievable in this day and age . And so is the MOH for even allowing it to exist.

----------


## Golfnorth

Now, when two educational Colleges draft and develop a refraction course and start offering it to a group that isn't even legally entitled to perform it, this is very assuming and cocky and only worsens the potential sale to the MOH. It certainly doesn't help our cause. 


OK I believe that we have to keep up the interest in refracting if we are ever going to be able to do it legally. We go to the government and ask to be able to refract. They say ok but how many of your members are in a position to do it? We say zero and we look silly. For the government to ever consider refracting by opticians we have to have everything in place and members who are qualified to do it for them to seriously consider us.
Just my opinion.

Regards,
Golfnorth

----------


## godin33

> We go to the government and ask to be able to refract.


Who's WE ?

----------


## wmcdonald

> Now, when two educational Colleges draft and develop a refraction course and start offering it to a group that isn't even legally entitled to perform it, this is very assuming and cocky and only worsens the potential sale to the MOH. It certainly doesn't help our cause. 
> 
> 
> OK I believe that we have to keep up the interest in refracting if we are ever going to be able to do it legally. We go to the government and ask to be able to refract. They say ok but how many of your members are in a position to do it? We say zero and we look silly. For the government to ever consider refracting by opticians we have to have everything in place and members who are qualified to do it for them to seriously consider us.
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


While not from Ontario, I hope I can make a comment. I understand your opinion, but consider this. Did you get the right to drive and then learn how? ODs taught themsleves pharmaceuticals for nearly 20 years before ever being able to utilize them. If we are ever to be able to perform refractions, a concerted effort must be undertaken to teach our colleagues how. We cannot, in the US or Canada, get the right to do anything we are not trained to do.

----------


## Refractingoptician.com

> Now, when two educational Colleges draft and develop a refraction course and start offering it to a group that isn't even legally entitled to perform it, this is very assuming and cocky and only worsens the potential sale to the MOH. It certainly doesn't help our cause. 
> .
> 
> Regards,
> Golfnorth


Golfnorth:
You must get the perspective right on this . 
(1) Refraction is in the public domain MOH can not control that . They only control what you do with the results because that would be prescribing .

(2) MOH is overstepping the Charter in my humble opinion by even suggesting we can not study refraction . The fact is that studying refraction for an optician is far more relevant than an ophthalmologist showing us surgery techniques for removing eyeballs . MOH should be more concerned that we might do surgeries after learning about these techniques in our Continuing Education classes . 

(3) MOH can not have things both ways, ie. let us study surgery but not refraction 

(4) MOH should be refused any cooperation whatsoever on any matters _until, as a sign of good faith , they apologize to opticians for discrimination and fix the MCSS fee schedules or MOH personell agree to take a reduction in their pay and benefits to 1991 levels ._ 

_(5) MOH should fix the long outstanding court battles that are still going on and they should recieve full resistance from Opticians until they help to fix this matter ._ 

_Wrap your thoughts around this : Can MOH tell you, Golfnorth, that it is illegal for you as an optician to study golf techniques ? Would you like that ? They have no jurisdiction to do that now do they ? Golf is in the public domain and so is refraction . AND in Canada you are free to study whatever you wish ._ 

_There is nothing wrong for anybody to study anything ._

_So why are we as opticians being discriminated against ? Why is COO and OOA allowing it ? They can develop any course they wish . And we can take any course we wish ._ 


_Tell MOH we are long overdue for an apology . The "assuming" and "cocky" parties here are not COO , OOA , or opticians . It is MOH , they assume we will roll over and play dead whenever they bark . even if they are wrong and out of line ._ 

_ASk yourself this , why would they take this stance ? You can see the logic of what I am saying ._

_Just my opinion . 
_

----------


## For-Life

I met the Minister of the Ministry of Health and Long Term Care today.  Unfortunately, the meeting was so quick, so we had to focus on the issues in our office (since I work for him, essentially) and could not look at past careers.

----------


## chip anderson

I have hear a lot of rumors that Cannada was in the process of eliminateing free speech from it's "freedoms' , I guess now the latest concept is restrict education.  They teach refraction to optometry students and ophthalmology students that are neither optometrists or ophthalmologist until graduation and license.  They teach anatomy and physiology to anyone that will sign up for the course.  This does not make them anything special or allow them to do anything to the body by law because they took anatomy.
Knowledge should be unlimited, at least here they aren't teaching you to make nukes and the like.

----------


## For-Life

> I have hear a lot of rumors that Cannada was in the process of eliminateing free speech from it's "freedoms' , I guess now the latest concept is restrict education.  They teach refraction to optometry students and ophthalmology students that are neither optometrists or ophthalmologist until graduation and license.  They teach anatomy and physiology to anyone that will sign up for the course.  This does not make them anything special or allow them to do anything to the body by law because they took anatomy.
> Knowledge should be unlimited, at least here they aren't teaching you to make nukes and the like.


I heard a lot of rumours that the US was attempting to imprison all Arabs.  The difference here, I did not believe it, because the US would not do that. When someone says something like that, I know it is stupid and I will not believe stupid things or try to push stupid rumours. Just like Canada would not eliminate freedom of speech.

You know better than this Chip.  Not very impressive for a person of such dignity as you to post something that silly.

----------


## godin33

So..... 
Still nothing eh?

----------


## Oedema

> Golfnorth:
> You must get the perspective right on this . 
> (1) Refraction is in the public domain MOH can not control that . They only control what you do with the results because that would be prescribing .
> 
> (2) MOH is overstepping the Charter in my humble opinion by even suggesting we can not study refraction . The fact is that studying refraction for an optician is far more relevant than an ophthalmologist showing us surgery techniques for removing eyeballs . MOH should be more concerned that we might do surgeries after learning about these techniques in our Continuing Education classes . 
> 
> (3) MOH can not have things both ways, ie. let us study surgery but not refraction _
> _


Were are you getting this idea that the MOH is not allowing opticians to study refraction?  Of course you're allowed to study anything you damn well please!  What the ministry is saying however is that they do not want the college to continue certifying opticians in their refraction designation b/c those policies have not be approved by the ministry (and they never will be unless you can convince HRPRAC otherwise).

Truly, you have to wonder what the hell your college is thinking... Basically they're telling all opticians that they cannot involve themselves in something that they have for years mainted is in the pubic domain and not a controlled act????  If its really in the public domain, why the need to draft up policies and hand out refracting designations???

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## Refractingoptician.com

> Were are you getting this idea that the MOH is not allowing opticians to study refraction? Of course you're allowed to study anything you damn well please! What the ministry is saying however is that they do not want the college to continue certifying opticians in their refraction designation b/c those policies have not be approved by the ministry (and they never will be unless you can convince HRPRAC otherwise).
> 
> Truly, you have to wonder what the hell your college is thinking... Basically they're telling all opticians that they cannot involve themselves in something that they have for years mainted is in the pubic domain and not a controlled act???? If its really in the public domain, why the need to draft up policies and hand out refracting designations???


 
Exactly , now you understand the stupidity of the situation and the guts of the matter. Is your head spinning ?

From a practical point of view , Opticians must study refraction , it is most important that the left hand know what the right does to arrive at a certain RX . This knowledge is crucial to their abilities . 

A mechanic who only knows brake jobs and steering systems can not fix the car without also knowing the electronic components and how each interacts with the whole .

Hand cuffing  knowledge , so various parties can have their ridiculous power struggles will benefit no one . In the mean time , untrained people walk off the street into the employment of Optometrists and Ophthalmologists and every day perform tests  on the guinea pigs they call patients . 

Opticians are  being honorable by setting standards  and guiding the way . Maybe MOH needs to get on board .

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## Refractingoptician.com

> I met the Minister of the Ministry of Health and Long Term Care today. Unfortunately, the meeting was so quick, so we had to focus on the issues in our office (since I work for him, essentially) and could not look at past careers.


 
What are you trying to say ?

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## For-Life

> What are you trying to say ?


I am trying to say that I met the Minister of Health for Ontario, but our time was short and I could not bring up the optical situation.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if he is fired in the near future.

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## Refractingoptician.com

> I am trying to say that I met the Minister of Health for Ontario, but our time was short and I could not bring up the optical situation.
> 
> Anyway, it will be interesting to see if he is fired in the near future.


If you get the opportunity, ask him if he would like to give up his pay check and put it back to 1991 levels  , which is the last time the MCSS fee schedule was revised .

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## For-Life

> If you get the opportunity, ask him if he would like to give up his pay check and put it back to 1991 levels  , which is the last time the MCSS fee schedule was revised .


he is not involved in the MCSS fee schedule though :)  That would be the Minister of Community and Social Services.

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## Refractingoptician.com

> he is not involved in the MCSS fee schedule though :) That would be the Minister of Community and Social Services.


Well , could you ask both Ministers if they would like to take a pay cut until it is brought into the realm of the 21st century ?

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## Chris Ryser

I have watched this thread now for a long time. Lot of disagreement and agreements................but somehow I have the feeling that it is going nowhere and nobody will do some actual work to get it somewhere.

There will never be any positive results as long as you post under animosity. You would have to consult and talk outside the public walls of OptiBoard, maybe then you could find an actual way of action with some following results whatever they will be.

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## For-Life

> Well , could you ask both Ministers if they would like to take a pay cut until it is brought into the realm of the 21st century ?


I don't work for the Minister of Community and Social Services, so I doubt I would ever get a chance to meet him or her.  But if I ever do, I will.  I think it is a bad economic policy.

You should have seen what the DSSAB did here with Ontario Works.  It tendered a contract for a sole provider.  Yes, people who can only get around by bus in a very awkwardly designed town were expected to only see one provider.  We did not place a RFP because I first felt it was unethical and second felt it that my former business did not want someone with four kids from the other side of town to come in and yell at them that they had to catch a bus across town.

I phoned the board members to express my displeasure and nearsightedness on the issue.

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## kitspoint

Hi - all I am new to Optiboard and the Canadian Discussion Forum. I finally worked out how to post and participate. I have followed the posts for the past few days and find them all interesting. I have to agree with Chris, there are many opportunities for all of us to help in some capacity so I wonder about the animosity portrayed in some posts. Perhaps it is just frustration that opticians have been on the pointy end of the foot for some time. 

Recently I became frustrated with VANOC the 2010 Olympic Organizing Committee, I tried to volunteer as an optician and could not. In frustration I wrote a million letters - each time rejected by some very pleasant person. A friend pointed out that as a profession we have not done our home work. Nobody really knows much about us. 

A search of web sites about opticians caused some interesting results. Most concerning was how we are described by knowledge data base (s). Consequently my personal project was to change Wikipedia definitions and the Optician pages. Mostly it has been successful, and, as many other knowledge sites upgrade from Wikipedia, it has had a multiplier effect. I notice several other Canadian opticians have also adopted this project as theirs. All help is welcome and appreciated. 

As a profession, Opticianry is technologically astute and highly skilled. It knows its craft. It works to exacting standards and precision because creating the perfect lens requires that kind of attention to detail. It appreciates that technology is the means to helping people see, we enhance lives. March on I say - every little bit counts.

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## eyemanflying

> I have watched this thread now for a long time. Lot of disagreement and agreements................but somehow I have the feeling that it is going nowhere and nobody will do some actual work to get it somewhere.
> 
> There will never be any positive results as long as you post under animosity. You would have to consult and talk outside the public walls of OptiBoard, maybe then you could find an actual way of action with some following results whatever they will be.


I agree.  What else is new?

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