# Conversation and Fun > Just Conversation >  Who's up and watching?

## Vicki

It's 12:50am, who else is still up and watching?  

vicki

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## coda

It's 10:27 (PST) and I'm up and listening. Looks, at this point, that GW has 249 with Ohio still up in the air. Thought with 89% reporting and GW up by ~100,000 it looks like Pete was wrong and that we'll wake up to '4 more years'.

No matter which one wins I'd say democracy in the US has won given the high voter turnout.  Something we can all be happy and proud of.

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## Spexvet

2am, was asleep, woke to bad news. Lucky thing is - it'll be tough for him to do worse in his second term. Maybe I'll move to Canada.

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## Jim Schafer

I went to bed at 2:15 am est. From 11 on I kept telling myself ...I will go in another 15 minutes. 

My wife came out at midnight to make sure I was not sleeping in my chair. At 2 I let the cat in and he started pacing because I was still up and infringing on his time. Pretty much channel surfed between FOX, Brokaw and Jennings. 

You have to wonder what adverts will be on TV now that the election is over. The networks pulled in some serious revenues this election year.

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## ziggy

Spexvet,I belive that they have an open policy on folks moving up from the USA. They have a bad exchange rate, just ask for 40% more than you think need to live. With the passing of all 11 "ban on gay marrige" admendments, gaining of seats in both the house and senate and Bush, apparently, winning, do you guys that the country is moving to the right?

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## Spexvet

People are strange. They thinks it's ok that they tell you who you can marry, but it's not ok to tell a corporation to stop dumping toxic waste into the drinking water (might cause some job loss, you know).

The pendulum swings, then swings back. The next four years will be really bad, and voters will realize their mistake, come to their senses, and vote the right way.

What I'd like to see is MODERATION, whichever way the pendulum swings. A little respect for the opinions and feelings of others, which conservatives typically don't show.

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## chip anderson

Rednecks Will Rule the Earth!

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## ziggy

If I'm not wrong dumping toxic or any other waste in our water-ways has been illegel for several years, 40 or so. If you know of any nonapproved dumping, let me know , I'll give my cousin, an EPA agent, a call. Moderation is great, the only problem is what the left and what the right calls moderation are two diffrent things. Gay marriage to some may seem a sensible, logical evolutionary path for the US to take, but most people see it as an abomination of the values that have set this country apart from all others. Just rember the sun WILL come up tomarrow!

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## Spexvet

> Gay marriage to some may seem a sensible, logical evolutionary path for the US to take, but most people see it as an abomination of the values that have set this country apart from all others.


Not most. The difference is that I would never consider telling who you can or can't marry. Next will be legislation that prohibits sex with the lights on.




> Just rember the sun WILL come up tomarrow!


Probably tomorrow. It's four years down the road that worries me.

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## For-Life

> 2am, was asleep, woke to bad news. Lucky thing is - it'll be tough for him to do worse in his second term. Maybe I'll move to Canada.


You can buy my store if you want :P

So Bush won. This is the first time in a long time that the incumbent just barely won. If you just scrape by then it really questions how the people felt about your Presidency. However, he won, probably fair and square, so lets move forward.

For the Democrats, we all know what the problem was here. The whole campaign was Bush vs. Not Bush. John Kerry was the wrong man to go up against Bush. He flip flops, lacks charisma, and he just never had a powerful stance. He is better than Bush, but he was still the wrong pick.

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## EyeManFla

> Rednecks Will Rule the Earth!


Will????

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## karen

> What I'd like to see is MODERATION, whichever way the pendulum swings. A little respect for the opinions and feelings of others, which conservatives typically don't show.


C'mon now, I thought we had all put those sweeping generalizations behind us!  ;) I admit to being a little suprised that W won and even more suprised that he won the poll here.  If I can put up with 8 years of Mr. Clinton, you can probably survive 4 more years of W.  Although I hear Canada is beautiful in the fall and we can still pick on each other online!
Question for you dear, if 11 states passed a ban on gay marriage don't you think that is more than "some" of the people?  
Also, the margin between the two men was small but is it not true that much more voters got out for each side-i.e. more people voted for Bush than ever have before? (Stand back and watch while I spin it!  :D )

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## Judy Canty

Well, I think that 11 of 50 is 22%. I think that a constitutional amendment on gay marriage has the same staying power as prohibition.  Legislating anyone's morality has always been difficult.

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## coda

> Well, I think that 11 of 50 is 22%. I think that a constitutional amendment on gay marriage has the same staying power as prohibition. Legislating anyone's morality has always been difficult.


I think that a majority of Americans oppose gay marriage, certainly a plurality do.  Remember that the 11 was only this election and that there are a number of other states which have already passed a constitutional amendment against it (even my liberal state of California where it passed overwhelmingly).

I do agree that it's a matter of time before the tide turns the other way but the jury is still out on what the time frame is.

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## karen

> Well, I think that 11 of 50 is 22%. I think that a constitutional amendment on gay marriage has the same staying power as prohibition.  Legislating anyone's morality has always been difficult.


yes but the vote passed by at least 60% in each of those states.  So those states had quite a few people that felt strongly about it.  Prohibition made something illegal that was already legal-not quite the same thing.  I agree that it was not a good idea-just should have sent everybody to AA except it wasn't around yet, that would have had a better success rate than Prohibition.  Guess we'll see what happens next...

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## Spexvet

> C'mon now, I thought we had all put those sweeping generalizations behind us! ;)


I did say "typical", not "all". :Rolleyes:  




> I admit to being a little suprised that W won and even more suprised that he won the poll here. If I can put up with 8 years of Mr. Clinton, you can probably survive 4 more years of W.


The difference is that Clinton was a centrist, especially in his second term. W, on the other hand, is waaaayyyyy right, and I find myself being offended at just about everything he does.




> Question for you dear, if 11 states passed a ban on gay marriage don't you think that is more than "some" of the people?


I think "most" people don't want to marry someone of the same gender. I have yet to hear a good arguement to prohibit it. Is being skeeved by homosexuality a good enough reason to interfere with love, and disqualify a couple from all that marriage entails (both good and bad:p )? I say the more marriages, the better, regarless of gender.




> Also, the margin between the two men was small but is it not true that much more voters got out for each side-i.e. more people voted for Bush than ever have before? (Stand back and watch while I spin it! :D )


And more people voted for Kerry than for Bush in 2000, so last election was illegitimate twice! (spinning right back at you):hammer:

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## chip anderson

Spexvet:  You must admitt that you would have reveled in it had Kerry won the electoral vote and lost the popular vote horribly.  If you notice Kerry carried only a few states, those being large enough to do very strange manipulations with the voting process.

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## coda

> Spexvet: You must admitt that you would have reveled in it had Kerry won the electoral vote and lost the popular vote horribly. If you notice Kerry carried only a few states, those being large enough to do very strange manipulations with the voting process.


I'm curious as to what you mean by "strange manipulations".  The electoral percentage isn't terribly different than the popular percentage.

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## chip anderson

Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Chicago, NYC, Buffalo and Boston all have long historys of rounding up skid-roe bums-bying thier votes with 1/2 pint.  Union manipulation of officials and voting apparatus.  Registering and voting the dead, etc.  That's what I mean by manipulation.

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## Spexvet

> Spexvet: You must admitt that you would have reveled in it had Kerry won the electoral vote and lost the popular vote horribly. If you notice Kerry carried only a few states, those being large enough to do very strange manipulations with the voting process.


Actually, Chip, when a candidate I support wins, I don't react like my favorite sports team won. The presidency is a serious position, and I treat it so. While I feel a sort of grim satisfaction, I actually feel pressure - this person MUST perform, because if s/he screws up, I will have contributed to the damage.

I never gloat - it has a way of coming back to bite you in the buttocks.

Congratutlatons on supporting the candidate more Americans voted for.

Spexvet

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## Spexvet

> Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Chicago, NYC, Buffalo and Boston all have long historys of rounding up skid-roe bums-bying thier votes with 1/2 pint. Union manipulation of officials and voting apparatus. Registering and voting the dead, etc. That's what I mean by manipulation.


I still worry about you.

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## chm2023

Well the lesson here is never underestimate Karl Rove (part Machiavelli, part Rasputin, part Cardinal Richilieu, part Himmler--the self effacing, pasty faced part/not the genocidal part).  Had anyone told me prior to the election that JK would win independents and the college educated, I would have thought that he pursued a winning strategy.  More Rs than Ds showed up and fewer crossed party lines, period.  Let's not make excuses for being bested.

Best part:  huge turnout;  worse part:  low younger voter turnout--the sad thing here is that it will be a cold day in hell when another candidate spends as much time with the youth demo.

People react differently to things.  I was so forlorn I went out and bought a new piano.  My husband thinks I'm nuts.

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## Judy Canty

C'mon Chip, the south also has an interesting past when it comes to manipulating the vote.

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## chm2023

One other positive thing from this (it's an ill wind as they say...) is the lack of disruption by fraud or equipment breakdowns or hanging chads etc.  Perhaps the threat of an army of attorneys had its affect.  The dire predictions did have a Y2K quality.

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## coda

> Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Chicago, NYC, Buffalo and Boston all have long historys of rounding up skid-roe bums-bying thier votes with 1/2 pint. Union manipulation of officials and voting apparatus. Registering and voting the dead, etc. That's what I mean by manipulation.


No better or worse than possum eatin' banjo pluckers, poll taxes or literacy tests.  I've seen some pretty _interesting_ get out the vote efforts in Arkansas and I presume it isn't so different than it's neighbors.  If you really believe that the difference between the Bush vote and the Kerry vote was made up of 'skid-roe bums' (sic) in PA, NY, IL, and MA you're pretty deluded.

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## Jim Schafer

The 18-29 turnout was 17% in 2000 and 17% this year, the same share in a much larger pie. We know that we baby boomers had less children than our parents. This trend would indicate the youth vote was significant. For the first time, all 3 of my kids voted in the same election. Only one has voted in the 3 elections he was eligible for. The other two have spotty voting records. 
What burns the networks is the fact the youth vote was not predictable. It blew all their preconcieved forecasts. 
I have a feeling the people running the exit polls did some "profiling" of the people leaving the polls without doing the actual work, how else could they be so far off.

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## ziggy

this is my 2 cents on the polls, the Bush camp ran some tv ads that said (i'm paraphraseing) that no one will be in the booth with you you should vote your gut, your morality and no one will ever know. That my friends,is what happened. So when the folks were attacked by the exit poll people the said the popular thing,"I voted for JK". It's that or the left wing news baisis was trying to influance the election.:hammer:

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## coda

> It's that or the left wing news baisis was trying to influance the election.:hammer:


I would imagine that reporting one candidate as recieving high numbers would actually motiviate the base for the other party.  I don't know that anyone has done a study on this but I'd sure be interested in seeing it.  I'm not a fan of exit polling and believe that no results should be reported until the last polls in the country have closed.  I'm sure this would be frusterating for people on the East Coast but I think it's a small price to pay.

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## Joann Raytar

> I would imagine that reporting one candidate as recieving high numbers would actually motiviate the base for the other party.


I wondered about that myself.  The results for New Hampshire were in before I left for work that morning.

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## ziggy

Coda, according to the new agencys they didnt want to make projections for fear that if they said Kerry has won by a landslide Bush supporters would throw-up their hands and would not go to the polls(at least those voting in the evening or in the western states. This was some of the logic used in 2000. If you remember the new service took some flack for calling FL before the panhandle polls were closed. Some even said it caused Gore supporters to stop going out to vote. Iwas just wondering if the reverse was being tried. It was more of a joke than anything.

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## chm2023

Read somewhere that the initial, i.e. morning, poll results over-sampled women--stay at home moms, older people--a demo disproportionately women--that are heavier JK voters.  One would think there would be some weighting though.  

I blame the bloggers--a scrap of info is transmitted a gazillion times and by merit of that number of transmissions is somehow deemed legit.

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## chm2023

> this is my 2 cents on the polls, the Bush camp ran some tv ads that said (i'm paraphraseing) that no one will be in the booth with you you should vote your gut, your morality and no one will ever know. That my friends,is what happened. So when the folks were attacked by the exit poll people the said the popular thing,"I voted for JK". It's that or the left wing news baisis was trying to influance the election.:hammer:


I agree (somewhat).  The democrats have to learn to couch their issues in terms of morality--healthcare, joblessness etc--these things all can be presented in terms of morals/values.  The problem is, voting for a ban on gay marriage, or the candidate that supports that issue, doesn't cost the voter anything, and he can revel in his perceived moral superiority.  Unfortanately, that's not necessarily the case with healthcare reform or education or joblessness.

I had a real wake-up experience yesterday.  I serve on a local arts board.  The board members are heavily democrat.  In the course of discussing/lamenting the election results, I was taken aback by some of the comments I heard.  It's one thing to have a low opinion of Bush, another to have a low opinion of the people who voted for him (I believe the word "toothless" was used).  This is as bad and ignorant as people who call Kerry supporters traitors and communists.   If you can't make your argument without resorting to this, you probably can't make your argument.  No wonder so many people hate politics!!:angry:

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## Johns

I listened to NPR almost all day on Wednesday.  At 9:57, about 1/2 hour before it was called "quits",  they said: "Ohio's motto is "In God All Things are Possible", and in this case, John Kerry still has a fair, if not good chance to pull it off".  At the same time, Clear Channell radio stations were giving out the times for the concession and victory speeches.  I've got to say this much-they didn't give in (NPR) until it really over.

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