# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Scotchguard/crizal/opinions

## harry888

Am I the only one?

I view scotchguard as something of a rip off, two dollars worth of spray applied to furniture with a 100 dollar charge.

Now Essilor has licensed the name, and rumour is that this will be the name of the new crizal.

Am I the only one that views "scotchguard" as NOT a good value? And will have lots of trouble marketing that name?

Crizal is my A/R of choice.  Love the the product.  Has Essilor ever read consumer reports to see what they say about Scotchguard?

Harry

Teflon is just soooo much better.

Crizal is my A/R of choice, love it.

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## MarcE

Scotchguard is licensed by Lux and is marketed by Lenscrafters.
How does the Essilor license work?
Is Scotchguard the same as Alize or ClearGuard?

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## AWTECH

> Scotchguard is licensed by Lux and is marketed by Lenscrafters.
> How does the Essilor license work?
> Is Scotchguard the same as Alize or ClearGuard?


I have not heard the details of the planned use of the Scotchguard license.  It could be a non-exclusive or some agreement between Lux and Essilor on the use of the name.

So a lens coating is either derived from a spray designed to reduce staining of cloth items or a coating is derived from a product designed to have eggs not stick in the frying pan.

Maybe this industry is not really filled with marketing experts but mullets for licensing names.

The names in this industry are mostly licensed just look at frames.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Now Essilor has licensed the name, and rumour is that this will be the name of the new crizal.*


Maybe this is just a rumor.................I have not seen any press release on the subject.

If Lux has a license on the brand name, why would Essilor become a copycat............and go to the effort of re-establishing another brand name for the same product they already have under the most popular name.   :finger:

You guys and girls are automatically re-directing to Crizal if you think of an AR coating.

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## cocoisland58

I do not like liscensed brands.  As I have said before Teflon is a frying pan and Scotchguard is a stain repellent.  At least Crizal and Alize do not bring to mind household articles, which to be honest women do not find all that appealing.  One would think that the marketeers would comprehend that unless...could it be that they are men?

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## Jubilee

Indeed Lenscrafters Premium AR is Scotchguard. When it was released the idea was that people were familiar with its tough repellent. When you spill something on your couch or carpet that has been treated, the liquid stays on the surface instead of getting down into the fibers. They promoted the fact that this AR was easy to clean (It came out about a year after Alize if I remember correctly.. late 04 early 05). They had demonstrators that consisted of a lens sitting on a tray, and you showed water and oil just beading up on the surface showing its hydrophobic and oleophobic properties..

In the past Lux has had agreements where they had exclusive use of a product for so many years, then they allow the company that developed the product mass market it.

However, since many believe that the Scotchguard coating was the same as Alize, I really have to wonder if Essilor would go this route.. To me it would be a step backward if they did..

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## MarcE

I agree w/ Chris, Coco and Jubilee

For Essilor to use the Scotchguard name is not in their best interest

Scotchguard is snake oil, in my opinion.  If somone tried to sell it to me for $100 on my lenses - no way.

Teflon is my scratched up frying pan.  WHy would I want that easy to scratch stuff on my glasses?

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## Grubendol

Our Essilor lab rep was in yesterday.  It is indeed a new version of Crizal with a different angle of adherence.  It is called Crizale Avance with Scotchguard.  

I'm a little nervous about the branding aspect since Lenscrafters will still have their Scotchguard but it is a DIFFERENT Scotchguard process.  How will we differentiate between the two for customers?  "Yeah they have Scotchguard, but ours is better and that's why it costs $40 more"  I mean really?

And the Teflon branding really irritated us when they said it would be for doctors offices only and then it started popping up in For Eyes ads.

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## Johns

I agree with Chris and the others as well.

We had a car with Scotch guarded seats...the kids still threw up on it!:hammer:

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## AdmiralKnight

They won't change the name. No way. How many people do you get coming in specifally asking for Crizal when they mean AR? It's as close to a household name as you can get when it comes to glasses, they're not going to throw that all away.

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## Grubendol

Has no one read my post? ;)

They HAVE changed the name, and they HAVE NOT at the same time.  It is now Crizal Avance with Scotchguard.  I saw the brochures and talked to the Rep about it yesterday.

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## HarryChiling

There was

Crizal - Ghetto folk came in asking for crystaaal name of a popular drink.
Crizal Alize - So they added the name of another popular ghetto drink to the mix

So I suggest the new version be called "Crizal Alize Especial", with a splash of lime, a twist, and light on the ice please. :bbg:

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## Pete Hanlin

There have been a lot of interesting comments posted on Essilor's name selection for our latest AR offering (which is officially named _Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector_).

*Q:Why has Essilor chosen to partner with 3M in marketing a new AR under the Scotchgard Protector moniker?*
A:The Crizal brand already has terrific name recognition- among those in the ophthalmic field. The performance of the product is well-established, and Crizal is easily the best selling AR on the market.

HOWEVER, the percentage of lenses sold in the US with AR is still an abysmally low 25&#37; or so. Therefore, it makes sense to describe the properties of this product with a brand well-known to CONSUMERS. 

Scotchgard Protector has over 93% name recognition among consumers. Consumers also demonstrate a very good grasp of what the Scotchgard Protector brand means- "protection, resistance to dirt, and easy to clean." Eye care practitioners constantly ask manufacturers to assist them in explaining products to patients- linking the Scotchgard Protector brand to Crizal is a response to that request.

*Q: So, what is the performance difference of this new product?*
A: Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector offers all the features of Crizal Alize with Clear Guard- with two primary advancements: 
First, the hydrophobicity (water contact angle) has been improved from 113 degrees to 116 degrees. All this means is the lens does a better job of repelling water and oil (easier to clean).
Secondly, the durability of the hydrophobic property has been dramatically improved. Most AR lens offering a hydrophobic property "wear out" over time. That is, while the lens is very easy to clean when it comes from the laboratory, over time the hydrophobic layer wears off and the lens becomes harder to clean. Independent laboratory tests have shown the hydrophobic property of Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector will remain on the lens even after the lens has been cleaned 20,000 times (your local Essilor consultant can show you the test results). This product offers superior initial cleanability and far superior cleanability over time.

*Q: Doesn't LensCrafters also offer an AR with the Scotchgard brand name?*
A: Yes they do- but the product offers neither the improved hydrophobic performance nor the anti-particulate features of Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector.  Additionally, the Crizal name will remain exclusively with private eye care practitioners.  Eye care practitioners offer many products that share a brand used by retailers (Zeiss AR, Transitions, etc.). The new Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector product allows eye care practitioners to take advantage of an extremely well-known consumer brand in Scotchgard with a product superior to that which can be found at competitor locations. Additionally, competitor locations will not have the power of the Crizal brand.

The goal being to increase AR sales in the US (which is good for everyone- eye care practitioners, Essilor, and consumers who will be seeing better through lenses that are durable and easy to clean).

Some will choose to squabble and complain about the marketplace- others will take advantage of a superior product and consumer brand to increase their AR sales...  For the former, Crizal, Crizal Alize, Crizal Sun, and Crizal Alize with Clear Guard will remain available.

Best regards,
Pete Hanlin, ABOM
Essilor of America

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## For-Life

> *Q: So, what is the performance difference of this new product?*
> A: Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector offers all the features of Crizal Alize with Clear Guard- with two primary advancements:  
> First, the hydrophobicity (water contact angle) has been improved from 113 degrees to 116 degrees.  All this means is the lens does a better job of repelling water and oil (easier to clean).
> Secondly, the durability of the hydrophobic property has been dramatically improved.  Most AR lens offering a hydrophobic property "wear out" over time.  That is, while the lens is very easy to clean when it comes from the laboratory, over time the hydrophobic layer wears off and the lens becomes harder to clean.  Independent laboratory tests have shown the hydrophobic property of Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector will remain on the lens even after the lens has been cleaned 20,000 times (your local Essilor consultant can show you the test results).  This product offers superior initial cleanability and far superior cleanability over time.


Well the name does not have me jumping up and down.  I always liked how Essilor named a lot of its products.  Alize, Crizal, Varilux, Ipseo ect.  Much better than the competitors in the fact that it sounds high end versus something you have on the work bench.  With that said, what is in a name.

The first benefit is no biggie.  The second one can be good.  I notice it with myself that the coating does not clean as well as when first purchased.  I guess the main decision comes down to the price change.  I see the value of this addition worth not much of an increase.  If there is a $20 increase then it is not worth it at all.

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## Pete Hanlin

Actually, a 116 degree contact angle is a fairly big deal- especially considering the closest non-Crizal AR is at about 108.

I was pretty skeptical about how much difference a degree or two can make as well- but these lenses are noticeably easier to clean than anything I've seen (and we get test lenses on basically every kind of AR out there). With each degree of contact angle you improve by a percentage when it comes to cleanability. A 3 degree jump is significant.

As you noted, most lenses get harder to clean with time... Compare a Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector lens against a competitor a year after you dispense it, and the difference will be quite noticeable (we have an independent lab that runs tests which simulate cleaning, and the results were pretty dramatic).

Regarding the price, your consultant can give you the number, but the cost isn't much greater than Crizal Alize with Clear Guard. 

At the end of the day, try out a pair and see what you think- that's the best proof.

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## HarryChiling

Thanks for the info Pete, I often rely on your info more than our area consultant.  You seem to have more of it.

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## treysdad

Pete,

Although we all know that Lux uses all manufacturers products, they *never,* as far as I know, mention any brands that they do not own the license for.  Including Transitions.  In my humble opinion the Crizal brand was one tool for the independents that now seems to have lost some of its cache.

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## bhess25

increasing the AR sales in the US (that is said to be heading into a recession), is as easy as lowering the prices!!..a name is just another high price to throw at a patient, they know its expensive just by the name alone, and when ECP's pay so much for the product, so too do the consumers!!

I dont want, nor do i care about a name...you want AR sales to go up...lower the gargantuan prices that essilor is famouse for....and to be fair..the big name i work for just made a move to use all essilor surface lenses (so dont tell me i dont believe in the products..in all truth i realy do)...when its time for me to get a bifocal or another set of lenses..im going for bang for the buck...and essilor aint it!!

just my typical brutally honest cocky oppinion!

-Billy

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## Chris Ryser

> *..................increasing the AR sales in the US (that is said to be heading into a recession), is as easy as lowering the prices!!..a name is just another high price to throw at a patient,..............*
> 
> *......................just my typical brutally honest cocky oppinion!*


 
I am wondering , that when only 20% of sales are with AR, a lot of Optiboarders are just about selling 90% of all jobs in AR.

As the economy looks gloomy and people are losing jobs by the galore, are they going to buy ARs with fancy names, or will the 20% take a drop?

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## bhess25

> I am wondering , that when only 20% of sales are with AR, a lot of Optiboarders are just about selling 90% of all jobs in AR.
> 
> As the economy looks gloomy and people are losing jobs by the galore, are they going to buy ARs with fancy names, or will the 20% take a drop?


 
it will definately be something to watch out for...i know that when im forced to do retail i dont have any problems selling our brand of AR (from our specials lab), but then again the advertised price is only $37.00 with a warrenty...if the better coatings could get closer to this price range i think a huge increase in sales would be very likely.

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## Jubilee

> There have been a lot of interesting comments posted on Essilor's name selection for our latest AR offering (which is officially named _Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector_).
> 
> *Q: Doesn't LensCrafters also offer an AR with the Scotchgard brand name?*
> A: Yes they do- but the product offers neither the improved hydrophobic performance nor the anti-particulate features of Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector. Additionally, the Crizal name will remain exclusively with private eye care practitioners. Eye care practitioners offer many products that share a brand used by retailers (Zeiss AR, Transitions, etc.). The new Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector product allows eye care practitioners to take advantage of an extremely well-known consumer brand in Scotchgard with a product superior to that which can be found at competitor locations. Additionally, competitor locations will not have the power of the Crizal brand.
> 
> The goal being to increase AR sales in the US (which is good for everyone- eye care practitioners, Essilor, and consumers who will be seeing better through lenses that are durable and easy to clean).
> 
> Some will choose to squabble and complain about the marketplace- others will take advantage of a superior product and consumer brand to increase their AR sales... For the former, Crizal, Crizal Alize, Crizal Sun, and Crizal Alize with Clear Guard will remain available.
> 
> ...


LensCrafters spent a lot of money promoting their Scotchgard branded lenses. While the product maybe different, because of the countless tv, radio, and billboard ads...many consumers will associate the lens with LC. While this could be a "good thing" in as far as it might be easier for us independents to sell, same as the "featherwate" or "Maximum View Progressive"... the main difference here is that LC has had exclusitivity to the Scotchgard brand for several years. This makes it seem that instead of it being a "branded" issue with featherwate=poly, etc.. that instead the independents are being late to this show, and that LC was the innovator of the product. Thus elevating them in a way...Justfying their price and position. 

I personally like to position us, the independents as being able to get the higher tech options and superior options than the chains. While this is the case, it certainly will force us to do a bit more explaining..

I suppose though if 3M helped in development though, that they would like some credit in the naming. I just have a hard time dealing with a name so close to the LC Branded product.

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## Fezz

Don't you all get it? This is the begining of the end!

Of course Essilor wants to be associated with Luxottica. It follows the natural progression of consolidation that both companies strive for. This is just one step closer to total domination.

Why else would they have the same branded product?


Wake up people!


(That concludes this weeks sermon on the coming Optical Doomsday)

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## Chris Ryser

> *Of course Essilor wants to be associated with Luxottica. It follows the natural progression of consolidation that both companies strive for. This is just one step closer to total domination.*
> *Why else would they have the same branded product?*
> 
> 
> *Wake up people*!


*Who will make the decision ??????????*



Identity of Amount of Percent of Person or Group Shares 

Owned ClassLeonardo Del Vecchio 314,803,339 (1) 69.97 &#37;
Giorgio Armani 22,724,000 5.05 %
Directors and Executive Officers as a Group 322,910,443 (2) 71.77 %

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2005/06/.../Section13.asp 

or


*Major allies* 
in 2007, over 8,000 employees will have paid into a Group investment plan.over 98% of French employees are Essilor shareholders.In order to adapt to local specificities and legislations, a number 
of different investment funds have been set up around the world:
Since 4 December 2006, Essilor has been on the Euronext 
FAS IAS&#174; index which measures the financial performance of 
companies that have large-scale employee participation. Based 
on the same methodology as the French CAC 40 index, 
the Euronext FAS IAS&#174; index aims to keep track in a comprehensive 
manner of companies whose employees own significant share capital, 
while offering investors and issuers the means to assess and compare 
market performance to that of other quoted companies.

http://www.essilor.com/employee-shareholders

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## Happylady

Pete,

So will there now be 4 Crizal choices? Crizal, Crizal Alize, Crizal Alize with Clear Guard and now Crizal Advance with Scotchguard? Is something being discontinued? 

How is it priced compared to the other Crizal products? I know you can't say actually, but just a general idea. 

Also, can you get it on VSP jobs?  I noticed that with Crizal with Clearguard I got charged extra for the Clearguard from the lab when I sold it on VSP jobs.

Is it out now?

Thanks for the information. :)

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## bhess25

"if" i decide to rip off...i mean sell a patient crizal advance..im not even mentioning the name..itll be crizal advance and thats it...they wont think its too pricy before they hear the price...but ill probably just stick with alize, its works great and nobody complains...it also doesnt cost the patient any insane amounts of hard earned money...i may have to explain what the term "hard earned money" means to essilor...jk..im sure every penny they have was hard earned..bwahahaha.

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## Pete Hanlin

How is it priced compared to the other Crizal products?
We usually don't discuss wholesale pricing on an open forum such as this (on anyone's product).  All I can say is- if I were still running a practice, I would probably charge the patient about $10 over Crizal Alize with Clear Guard.  You can call your lab to get the actual wholesale price (as I recall, you aren't too far from Omega- just give customer service a call).

Also, can you get it on VSP jobs?
Although we're pursuing a code with VSP, the new product has not been assigned a code as of yet.  You can sell Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protector to VSP patients, however- ask your Essilor Consultant how.

As the economy looks gloomy and people are losing jobs by the galore, are they going to buy ARs with fancy names, or will the 20% take a drop? 
AR sales (at least sales of Crizal) are unlikely to drop- IMO- for this reason...  Over 95% of people who order a Crizal product once will order it on all subsequent eyewear they purchase.  Patients aren't failing to purchase AR because it is too expensive ($100 or so to have a lens that is more durable, easier to clean, and helps you see better for 2 years is a bargain when I note that my son spends more than that on a pair of sneakers I'll replace in 6 months).  Patients fail to purchase AR because eye care practitioners fail to present it as an option.  

As for why OptiBoarders seem to sell AR at a 90% clip...  I've noticed that practices are either "on-board" with AR or they're not.  So, there probably are numerous practices providing AR to 90% of their patients- and there are a whole lot who only provide it to the 10% or so of their patients who take the initiative to actually ask for AR.

As for Essilor buying Luxottica- I really want to thank you for each time you post that kind of fantasia-speak (any time I need a pick-me-up chuckle, I run a search for "Luxottica" and "Essilor" on OptiBoard).  
:)
Furthermore, it is saddening- but not surprising- that you didn't feel the creation of the Essilor Vision Foundation (http://www.essilorvisionfoundation.org/) was worthy of mention.  Since you are so interested in how Essilor invests its money, it might interest you to know we're also investing in the American community as well.

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## AWTECH

Pete:

For your information, I will for one say, although I do not purchase any products from Essilor, (we make our own product lines which indirectly compete with some Essilor products), I admire the way Essilor operates there business. Yes, they make money, (thats not a bad thing), they do so by providing value to their customers.

The way Essilor learned to acquire labs works for all parties except possibly their direct competitors.

I think many posts on this board that are negative toward Essilor do not consider how good the company is at what they do. (Probably some envey from a few also).

I have yet to see a negative post about Essilor that I can see the negative other than the size and scope of Essilor. Some act like Essilor does not have competition. In fact they have competition from all others, and do a very very good job of managing to remain competitive.

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## Fezz

One of my labs just notified us that they will automatically be upgrading all Crizal Alize and Crizal Alize w/Clearguard to the new Crizal Avance(w/Scotchgard) at *NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE*!

How great is that?

Well....maybe not so great if they were overcharging in the first place! 

Hmmm?

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## For-Life

> One of my labs just notified us that they will automatically be upgrading all Crizal Alize and Crizal Alize w/Clearguard to the new Crizal Avance(w/Scotchgard) at *NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE*!
> 
> How great is that?
> 
> Well....maybe not so great if they were overcharging in the first place! 
> 
> Hmmm?


you're one of those guys that looks a gift horse in the mouth

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## Pete Hanlin

Pete:
For your information, I will for one say, although I do not purchase any products from Essilor, (we make our own product lines which indirectly compete with some Essilor products), I admire the way Essilor operates their business. Yes, they make money, (thats not a bad thing), they do so by providing value to their customers.

AWTECH,
I appreciate your comments.  Prior to my employment with Essilor (it doesn't seem possible I've been here 5 1/2 years already), I used to scan over the negative Luxottica posts and wonder why a company that made quality frames at a decent price would garner so much acrimony just because they had moved into the retail sector.  I carried Luxottica frames right up to the day I left private practice, and they always performed well for me.

Now I read some of the posts that discuss Essilor and wish some of these folks could spend a year working within the company they seem to so despise.  

Essilor, eye care practitioners, and even independently owned laboratories have had a long-standing win-win-win relationship.  Anyone who doubts this should sit down and talk with Mike Daley (President of Essilor's lens group), or any number of our veteren Essilor consultants.  They can tell you about the days when there was no progressive lens market- about days and nights they spent training practitioners how to fit these lenses.  Talk with Dave Cuffe (director of technical support to independent labs) about the trips his team has made to help laboratories with processing challenges.  Even today, his team is available to completely re-engineer an independent laboratory to make it more efficient and AR ready.

I don't mean to be defensive- I don't bother trying to defend Essilor very often these days (because the people who don't like Essilor often have their own agendas).  Also, I can personally attest to the fact that companies like Sola, Pearle, and yes- LensCrafters- have worked to build this market as well (my first months in the industry I learned a TON from bootlegged Pearle training manuals, and I've learned a lot from Sola's employees and literature over the years as well).

So, for all the "little guys" out there that want to throw stones at large manufacturers- that's fine, I get the fact that you want your piece of the pie, too.  However, at least have the decency to recognize the contributions companies like Essilor, Sola, Transitions, Pearle, LensCrafters, etc. have made to the US market.  Chances are there wouldn't be a US progressive market to have a piece of if not for the efforts of Essilor, AO, and Sola.

Finally (then I'll be done for a while ;^), it absolutely AMAZES me how anyone could have a negative view of an AR product that: 1.) provides better scratch resistance than a NON-AR lens, 2.) is easier to clean than any lens in the history of ophthalmics, 3.) will- without dispute- provide your patients with greater visual comfort, 4.) will be marketed to your consumers in a way that HELPS you sell them the product, and 5.) apparently may not even cost any more than the previous version at some labs!  If for some unfathomnable reason you just can't get over the fact that someone else also may sell a product with the same name, you're free to call it whatever the heck you want.

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## Uncle Fester

Pete- Is it pronounced Avance as in rhymes with Beyounce?

Can't help myself--

How about Crizal Avance Digitally Enhanced High Definition Anti Reflection? Then the patient can just ask for us to CA-DEH-DAR dem thar lenses:p

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## HarryChiling

> Finally (then I'll be done for a while ;^), it absolutely AMAZES me how anyone could have a negative view of an AR product that: 1.) provides better scratch resistance than a NON-AR lens, 2.) is easier to clean than any lens in the history of ophthalmics, 3.) will- without dispute- provide your patients with greater visual comfort, 4.) will be marketed to your consumers in a way that HELPS you sell them the product, and 5.) apparently may not even cost any more than the previous version at some labs! If for some unfathomnable reason you just can't get over the fact that someone else also may sell a product with the same name, you're free to call it whatever the heck you want.


Pete,

Essilor has too many AR products on the market right now which is why they get such flack.

Reflection Free
Crizal
Crizal Alize
Crizal Alize Clear Guard
Crizal Alize Advance
......
......
......

I hated it a while back, but I remember everytime I looked at this site everyone was sayign how the crizal coatings are the best, then they would tweak it and it would all of a sudden be a new product.  Our office uses the Good, Better, Best approach to pricing and catergorizing products and it seems that Essilor has a Good, Gooder, Better, Betterer, Best and Bester. :hammer: It would have made more sense in my opinion to discontinue a product here IMO, but hey I have not built a billion dollar company so what do I know.  

[drive by pot shot]
I still think Essilor should contribute more to opticians than they do to optometrists. :p
[/drive by pot shot]

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## HarryChiling

http://www.essilorvisionfoundation.org/ - ?  Pete there is no information on how this is helping the american community?  Also it asks for donations so it looks like others helping Essilor to help the community?  The press release didn't show up when I tried to look at it, if you have more informtion I would really be interested in reading up on this.

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## Fezz

> Pete,
> 
> Essilor has too many AR products on the market right now which is why they get such flack.
> 
> Reflection Free
> Crizal
> Crizal Alize
> Crizal Alize Clear Guard
> Crizal Alize Advance
> ...


 
Great point Harry.

But, thats only the tip of the iceberg. Lets not forget all of the other names for Essilors/Varilux's *generic* ar coatings that their labs produce, the stock lens houses they own, etc. Some names like Triumph, Synergy, Ultra Glare Free with Centurion TC, Komodoo come to mind.

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## Jubilee

Well I hope I am not being lumped into the "haters" here..

I pm'd you last year about this time with issues I had and unfortunately I still haven't found my faith with Essilor yet again.

For me, the concerns are many fold. While I appreciate the strides that Essilor, Sola, Zeiss, Lux, and many other optical companies have made (and I believe I mentioned in passing the marketing value) I also have concerns about a possible monopolistic market developing.

As an independent, it is a struggle to fight against the marketing dollars of the larger chains. Chains that also make the majority of their money selling your (Essilor) products. I can't buy my Accolade's, ovations, and probably not even my VARILUX branded products for as low as Lenscrafters, Costco, Walmart, or even the local chains can. So I can't compete by buying the same product...

Yeah I can price it cheaper, but then I make less money per transaction than the chain..or in the case of Costco, they can sell it for as much as I can buy it for!

While I like to think our service is beyond that of any chain, the sad state of affairs is that for a lot of patients, that just isn't enough. They are on a budget and price is king. That and being a preferred provider for their insurance who happens to own most of my competition and proudly displays their locations on paper work sent to the patients..

The easiest way for me to compete is by using different products. I still use some of the Essilor products in certain situations. However, I want my office to be as far from the chain mentality as possible. Yes the big companies have successful models, but that isnt' the only way to operate and not everyone is out to get rich.

I like working with independents cause while Essilor makes great products, I don't think they are _the_ only product or the best product all the time. I like the idea of unbiased opinion.. I also like what my labs did that were different than the current business model you have. Frame/lens packages, tiered option packages, and the like helped me maximize my dollars given my limited environment (No edger in house, etc) Yet, already they tried to get a rep to come and take the sample product away.

So forgive me if I am not all that excited right now...

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## HarryChiling

> Great point Harry.
> 
> But, thats only the tip of the iceberg. Lets not forget all of the other names for Essilors/Varilux's *generic* ar coatings that their labs produce, the stock lens houses they own, etc. Some names like Triumph, Synergy, Ultra Glare Free with Centurion TC, Komodoo come to mind.


Good points Fezz, I use triumph and I also use many of the Essilor products that aren't mainstream like shore lenses and such.  I personally don't offer many name brand products.  Now our house lens of choice is the Naural, but that's because I get them at ridiculous prices, if they wen up I would drop them in a heart beat.  Lots of great products out there in todays market.  I actually talked to my essilor rep about them selling products to many of the chains and they told me that this was their way to keep production hgh and therefore the costs for independents low.  I work in a franchised Pearle and find that we don't get the Varilux products from our in house labs at any discount, matter of fact chances are we would pay probably 3 times what an independent would pay for a varilux product from our lab.  

I don't like the fact that I can't get Varilux blanks to surface.  I think that simple thing alone has lead me to change many from varilux to many other progressives.  I can get every other lens blank offered, but the varilux I can't get which means higher costs to me so I won't offer them.

A great independent company I think is shamir, they have a bunch of great designs and I think they are becomeing more mainstream today then they were in the past.

Younger has a great progressive which is available in almost every flavor unde he sun.  I like that they made a great design and insteda of making 100 more they spent their resources offering that lens in every flavor under the sun, I think that was truy a great move and makes it easier for an optician to fit the lens and offer various options without having to switch designs.

I have been liking the Trinity by Augen Optics, great lenses available in trivex and as a sunsensor.

In coatings, ICoat offers stainless with a contact angle greate than 112o.  Opticote offers the tzAvoRite which is a great AR and their mirrors are hands down the best in the industry I dare anyone to say otherwise.  Hoya has the Super Hivision which is a great coating that holds up well.  Nikon Ice is another flavor of coating I believe now incorporated by Essilor.

AR's have not changed much, they are a series f layers of oxides, floridue and silica the process keeps changeing adn the methods used to apply or get them to adhere to the lens, so whena  lab changes it's process if they want to market it every 6-9 montsh that's fine for them, bt it bloats the cost to me and I will not pass tht on to a consumer just beacuse.  Now if Essilor were to come out with soehting truly innovative then I m all ears, but if they just added a few more layers to the stack, or refined their porcess a bit more, I don't care and will not purchase or sell it.

----------


## partyoptician

As a former Lencrafters GM.  I just thought you guys should know that the Scotchgard product is Essilor.  The finished lenses are theirs and the surfaced lenses are sent to their Joe's Creek lab in Fl.  I don;t think I can believe that the coatings are different when they're coming from the same facility.  You be the judge.

----------


## Pete Hanlin

Pete- Is it pronounced Avance as in rhymes with Beyounce?
"Avance" is indeed pronounced like "Beyonce" (and likewise, it is an "Upgrade"). :)

Essilor has too many AR products on the market right now which is why they get such flack.
Try and discontinue a product and you get "flak" from customers who still order the old product. If you think there are too many products, just use one or two of them- problem solved.

But, thats only the tip of the iceberg. Lets not forget all of the other names for Essilors/Varilux's *generic* ar coatings that their labs produce, the stock lens houses they own, etc. Some names like Triumph, Synergy, Ultra Glare Free with Centurion TC, Komodoo come to mind. 
You missed a bunch... Yep, that's because labs- like practitioners- like to offer products with unique names as well. 

AR's have not changed much, they are a series f layers of oxides, floridue and silica the process keeps changeing adn the methods used to apply or get them to adhere to the lens, so whena lab changes it's process if they want to market it every 6-9 montsh that's fine for them, bt it bloats the cost to me and I will not pass tht on to a consumer just beacuse.
The actual AR stack has not changed very much.  The hardcoat technologies that make AR durable and the hydrophobic technologies that make them cleanable have changed dramatically over the past 10 years.  There are one or two other really high quality AR coatings out there (i.e., durable and cleanable), from the tests I've seen, Crizal products are the best- but what else would you expect me to say?  If you're selling a product with a dip-coated, thermally cured hardcoat, the lens should be very durable.  However, I know of only 2 or 3 ARs other than Crizal products that feature that kind of hard coat (and on 2 of them, the dip coat is applied over a factory applied coating, which lessens performance).

While I like to think our service is beyond that of any chain, the sad state of affairs is that for a lot of patients, that just isn't enough. They are on a budget and price is king. 
I used to sit in the office and tell myself patients were walking with Rxs because of price. Then I noticed these same patients were wearing designer jeans, Nike sneakers, talking on PDA cell phones, and driving pretty nice automobiles and it dawned on me that people WILL spend money on things when a perception of value is built. Heck, about 22&#37; of cell phone users own 2 or more cell phones (that's about the same % of eyeglass wearers who own more than one pair of Rx glasses). Brands are one of the primary drivers of value perception- Varilux is one of the brands I used to build value (patients had good experiences with their lenses, knew they were Varilux lenses, and knew the place where they could get more Varilux lenses was my office). You can build value with _any_ brand- so if you have another brand you like, and it works for you, then utilize it for all its worth!

So forgive me if I am not all that excited right now... 
Nothing to forgive- and, btw, I had hoped the service issues you experienced earlier had been resolved. Disappointed to hear they have not been. 

http://www.essilorvisionfoundation.org/ - ? Pete there is no information on how this is helping the american community? Also it asks for donations so it looks like others helping Essilor to help the community?
The foundation was just kicked off a couple weeks ago at our National Sales Meeting. If you are interested, I'll be happy to post more information as soon as I have it. Many of our employees have already donated time and product to the Special Olympics, and Essilor kicked off the foundation with a sizeable donation. 

I'm not suggesting Essilor is perfect- or that everyone should use solely Essilor products. However, the opinion that has been expressed that Essilor is some evil corporation bent on world domination is simply erroneous and- quite frankly- insulting to the dedicated employees and management of that company.

Here is the press release:
*ESSILOR VISION FOUNDATION targets children’s vision problems*_New Foundation designed to help people attain better lives through better sight_  
*NEW YORK** –* January 7, 2008 – Essilor of America, Inc. announces the creation of the Essilor Vision Foundation, a public, non-profit foundation based in Dallas, Texas. The new foundation will strive to help people achieve better lives through better sight by creating and supporting activities that advance good vision and its benefits, and offering special help to those who need it most.
“Essilor International sees this U.S.-based foundation as a step in furthering its worldwide activities as a socially responsible company,” said Hubert Sagnieres, president, North America and Europe Regions. “By combining the dedication of our employees, our comprehensive network of labs and our strong relationships with eyecare professionals nationwide, we plan to work side-by-side with the foundation to improve access to vision care.”
The new foundation will concentrate its initial efforts on U.S. school children. Its first program focuses on educating parents about the need for annual eye exams for children through a partnership with schools in Tarrant County, Texas. The foundation also plans to work closely with other non-profit organizations such as Lions Clubs International, to find ways to help families pay for eye exams and receive eyeglasses that they might not otherwise be able to afford. 
“Studies show that one in four children in the United States have a vision problem that their parents aren’t aware of,” said Audrey Reed, executive director. “It affects their reading, learning and behavior in the classroom. Research suggests the percentage of inner-city children with uncorrected vision problems is as high as 50 percent. We are developing programs to address these issues so all children, regardless of their ethnic background or financial status, have an equal chance to learn and become productive members of society.” 

Also, for anyone interested in the life of Sargent Shriver (activist in the 60s who was instrumental in starting the Peace Corps and several other social inventions), there is a documentary on his life airing on PBS on Martin Luther King Day at 10pm EDT that was sponsored by Essilor.

----------


## bhess25

> I have been liking the Trinity by Augen Optics, great lenses available in trivex and as a sunsensor.


 

Thats a great lens...we use it at the big name...but they have set basecurves that you have to follow no-matter what...they also have aspheric and double aspheric sv blanks..the double aspheric is pretty cool stuff..flatter and clearer.

IMHO it might be expensive but its well worth it...put them in a drill mount and no cracking!!!..trivex is the new 167 for drills!!

----------


## partyoptician

Different or the same? Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm! By the way Pete, are you saying Essilor is not providing LC with their Scotchgard AR?  As far as retail designer names-- most people do not view glasses the same as other designer retail items. Why? *Because people will* *spend as much as they can on things they want and as little as they can for things they need*. And while I agree that creating need/want is the most important point of "selling"---most people simply don't want glasses-- they just need them.

----------


## Pete Hanlin

Different or the same? Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm! By the way Pete, most people do not view glasses the same as other designer retail items. Why? *Because people will* *spend as much as they can on things they want and as little as they can for things they need*. And while I agree that creating need/want is the most important point of "selling"---most people simply don't want glasses-- they just need them. 
PartyOptician,
I've PM'd you regarding the differences between the products.

Regarding want vs. need items... I would consider the tires on my car a need item- yet I pay $80 more per tire for Michelins (because they ride quieter and I perceive they're better). I would consider gasoline a need item, yet I pay $0.08 more per gallon to buy gas at Chevron because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that its better for my car. Likewise, although I know the frosty flakes in the black and white generic box are probably the same as those sporting Tony the Tiger, I go with Tony because I have confidence in past experience with that brand. The list goes on and on- from bottled water, to dental floss, to all sorts of things that are "necessities." I don't care what you are selling- if your consumers are basing a decision solely on price, that is an indication you are failing to differentiate on their perception of quality, service, level of need, or convenience. 

Now, with AR... the reason we have so much perceived price resistance is because no one NEEDS it (because most consumers have never tried the product). Oddly enough, when I speak to a group of ophthalmic retailers I notice the AR penetration in the room is close to 100&#37; (nearly ALL opticians and optometrists who wear glasses have AR). Yet only about 24% of US consumers order AR on their lenses... Maybe that's because opticians and optometrists have tried AR and recognize the benefits- while most consumers have not. 

Want an example from outside our industry? No one NEEDED ATM machines in the late 80's. When the banks introduced them, they had trouble getting people to use them- even though the service was free. Today, millions of people pay $2.00 or more to access $20 from a mall ATM- because of a perceived need (well, actually because of stupidity and lack of planning, but that's another story).

I've been in too many offices where opticians and optometrists understand how to create value- and have no trouble recommending and providing their patients with premium products- to believe that the American eyewear consumer is incapable of perceiving the value of superior eyewear.  Considering the "consumption driven" consumers that drive the US market, you can't convince me that Japanese, French, German, British, and Canadian consumers are the only people capable of desiring better eyewear (Canada- which I would consider a market similar to our own, has an AR penetration of over 40%, btw).

----------


## LENNY

This is why Essilor  still sells Comforts!
We are used to them!

----------


## bhess25

whats the price difference for AR in these other countries compaired to the US..anyone know?

----------


## Cherry Optical

I don't know if anyone has stolen my idea but I wondered if they call it Crizal Advanced in France?:D

I don't know what there is about Crizal Avance that someone wouldn't like.  No one said you have to like the name or ever even say it.  Sell it and enjoy the outstanding performance.

I strongly encourage those of you with low to low-moderate Rxs to try the Essilor Definity or Definity Short in TRIVEX with Crizal Avance.  A great go-to lens.  

If anyone is interested in trying a pair?  PM me.

Adam

----------


## Cherry Optical

> I don't like the fact that I can't get Varilux blanks to surface.  I think that simple thing alone has lead me to change many from varilux to many other progressives.  I can get every other lens blank offered, but the varilux I can't get which means higher costs to me so I won't offer them.


Cough::bullcrap::Cough

First of all, you could buy them if you really wanted to.  I don't know a great deal about you but I knew right away that Varilux lenses (semi finished, uncut, or edged and mounted) are WAY too expensive for Harry.    Next thing you know I'll be reading posts by Harry about selling 1.74 Varilux Ipseos w/ Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protection.  

I won't hold my breath but I know it would make you feel good to sell one of those every other month or so.

Adam

----------


## For-Life

> I don't know if anyone has stolen my idea but I wondered if they call it Crizal Advanced in France?:D
> 
> I don't know what there is about Crizal Avance that someone wouldn't like.  No one said you have to like the name or ever even say it.  Sell it and enjoy the outstanding performance.
> 
> I strongly encourage those of you with low to low-moderate Rxs to try the Essilor Definity or Definity Short in TRIVEX with Crizal Avance.  A great go-to lens.  
> 
> If anyone is interested in trying a pair?  PM me.
> 
> Adam


The problem is clear here.  Essilor is coming out with potentially another great product, and that just burns people.

I remember when Alize came out.  They all flipped out over it.  Then some started to try it and could not say anything bad.  There were a few non-Essilor buyers who still thought it was bs.  I remember several saying that the Zeiss Carat has been hydrophobic for years.  Well so has Crizal.  They did not understand that we were not just talking about a simple hydrophobic lens here.  Now, these oliphobic lenses are all we can talk about.  Shame for Essilor for trying to better the market with their own.

Next came the Clear Guard.  People yelling and screaming that Teflon is anti-static.  They did not care that it was a free add on.  They just wanted to complain that Essilor was bettering their product.

Look at the thread about the Comfort 360.  One of the very top selling PALs in the World, and they criticized Essilor for trying to make it better.  It is not like the company said that it will be replacing the Physio or Ipseo.  Essilor realized that many practitioners keep their patients in the exact same lens, and the company capitalized on it.  People then accused Essilor of making all of their future lenses digital, like it is a bad thing.

Sometimes, I think people are just jealous of others making money.

----------


## Jubilee

Well of course Pete, you got my attention with the foundation. I was trying to read about it on my computer here, but everytime I accessed the website at home, my browser crashed. Might be that darn Norton 360...

Anyway.. I am pleased to see that they plan on working closely with other vision care based charities. I was curious as to why the foundation wanted to set up in its own right, compared to giving a boost to one of the existing organizations such as the Lion's Club or Prevent Blindness? It is my personal opinion that the "optical based charities" are so fragmented and competing for every donation of resources, including dollars, that we have several services being duplicated and others being completely ignored.

So is Essilor going to focus on children's vision only, or are they going to help with adult vision needs as well? Any interest in backing a wholesale lab designed to service all the vision based charities to provide a more economical and cost effective pair of glasses? ;)


Cassandra

----------


## Pete Hanlin

My understanding is the foundation will be working alongside a number of charities (I think one of the early mentions did refer to Lion's Club- and the hope that we can provide new frames, instead of used ones, to those who need eyewear and cannot afford them).  Again, its all just coming on line...

If you have a lab that works towards providing eyewear to those in need, please email or PM me, and I will put you in touch with the newly named director of the foundation- Audrey Reed.  This is an Essilor employee who has spent a ton of time "in the trenches" helping people in need, and it was really great to see Essilor putting her in charge of this foundation (rather than bringing in some exec from outside).

Pete

----------


## HarryChiling

> Cough::bullcrap::Cough
> 
> First of all, you could buy them if you really wanted to. I don't know a great deal about you but I knew right away that Varilux lenses (semi finished, uncut, or edged and mounted) are WAY too expensive for Harry. Next thing you know I'll be reading posts by Harry about selling 1.74 Varilux Ipseos w/ Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protection. 
> 
> I won't hold my breath but I know it would make you feel good to sell one of those every other month or so.
> 
> Adam


It's not that I can't get them, it's why should I get them when the performance in my office is no better than lenses I get at more than half the cost and with better terms.  If I am to build value in a brand and utilize my strengths in this business I can't just order the next dummy proof lens, I have to do the research and fidn a top quality lens that performs well and meets my businesses needs.  

By the way I strip more Crizal than I sell, and guess what I turn them into sunglasses and a majority of the patients go and tell their friends and I get more people that want me to strip and tint their lenses.  That's adding value, an AR that consitently has been improved by a miniscule measure and marked up every time has no value to me, sure it's an easy sell, the essilor rep will provide me with all kinds of literature and cool little gadgets that show how static resistent lenses are and the various ads in the magazines.  If you came to my office you would find those items are of no value to me personally.

Either way I offer a hydro coated AR, I offer a base AR and I offer a hydro oleo AR.  Doesn't make a difference to me who makes it as long as the risidual color is green (so I can replace you if you start jacking the price on me without cosmetic consequences, sorry that's just business), and the quality is good.

I would love to work with Essilor's AR's and their lenses, but they are too expensive even the lower end product is generally more expensive, and they directly market to consumers which is a no no in my book because it undermines my professional judgement.

Hey Adam like I told you I would love to live in your shadow "Mr. Big Time Lab Guy" :D

----------


## Barry Santini

Harry:

I want to offer you another viewpoint:

Your approach appears to be founded upon the premises that:
1. Your client's would not purchase eyewear unless they "needed" to.
2. Because they do not want or desire eyewear, this, then, is a purchase that you assume they want to spend as little money on as possible.
3. Therefore, you act as their guradian of value.

I might suggest that you could be selling your clients short. On another point, I suggest that by offering a multi-choice, multierd-tier AR offering, is contributing to client confusion in a way you are not in tuned with. Further, in many cases, this multi-decision eyewear-choice presentation is *not*, IMHO, what people really want from their trusted vision professional.

In my practice, I *only* offer the absolute, top-of-the-line lab-applied ARs. For orders using finished lenses, 90&#37; of what I select is also top-of-the-line. Only when I am in a budget-package presentation do I drop down to a lower-priced AR. And at those times, the client doesn't even know that I've made the choice I have.

I try to keep it as simple as possible. And I agree with you that the most "sophisticated" progressives are not always my first choice for all clients. But I normally do not offer a menu of progressive choices from which they are to choose. I simply (pre) select the best for them. I feel this is why they want my service to begin with.

If cost becomes (or continues) to remain an important issue, they will not doubt try Costco or the like.

My feeling is: If they are happy/satisfied there, then they have found their ideal eyewear home. If not, I stand ready to deliver the same top-quality, premium dispensing experience and advice I always have.

That's why *I* am. And I think that's who *you* are too. You just may not be aware of some of your subconcious assumtions about your clients.

Maybe...or maybe not.

Respectfully, FWIW

Barry

----------


## HarryChiling

> Harry:
> 
> I want to offer you another viewpoint:
> 
> Your approach appears to be founded upon the premises that:
> 1. Your client's would not purchase eyewear unless they "needed" to.
> 2. Because they do not want or desire eyewear, this, then, is a purchase that you assume they want to spend as little money on as possible.
> 3. Therefore, you act as their guradian of value.
> 
> ...


Interesting points as always Barry, the margins are not there for me to sell top tier AR's and when I price them so that I can get those margins I get headaches and complaints.  We found that our average per pair price is $300.00 give or take a few here and there, it's not difficult to go over this and we often do, but when we go over this amount if the lenses and options don't perform beyond the patients expectations then they come in upset.  So we give all our patients the pros and the cons of the various coatings when they ask about Crizal I explain the benefits of a hydro coat on their AR and a hardcoat and primer and how the lenses perform the way that they do, in the end they get a hydro AR and they are happy, but for me to roll over and lay down and just give them a name brand product becasue they mentioned it doesn't do our bottom line justice.  Same with transitions I get patients that want a photochromic FT in poly every now and again and I explain to them that we have a photochromic not a transitions and that transitions is the brand and a majority of the time they just want the one that changes.

I have more money to run our own promotions and print up our own ads and add value to our own coatings.  I am interested in hearing about the value in a few degrees of improvement?  Does anyone have a qay of quantifying that for a patient?  How do we attacha  dollar figure to that?  I don't I use the many great coatings available that perform well and leave the super premium to other stores.

----------


## Barry Santini

Harry:

Here's what I do for a new AR presentation:

I tell them about the benefits (no need to restate these here), and then....

I tell them about the _awful_ history of AR complaints (cleaning, "scratches", coming-off, etc.).

And then I tell them the truth: that its got soooo bad in the late 90's/early 2000's, that if we didn't replace 90+&#37; of all the ARs we sold.......we didn't replace one!

And _then_ I tell them that ONLY because the quality of AR got so bad, IMHO, is it as good as it is today.

With CZL w/SGP (as ELOA refers to it on Vision Web), I believe we have the absolute most advanced ophtahlmic lens treatment available. Easiest to clean, easiest to stay clean, scratch resistant (not proof...but they never retain that. But with the excellent ELOA warranty, you are insured and protected!), and looks great!

Only $169.00 (for just the AR, in my office). (Don't wince..and don't be afraid to ask a fair and reasonable cost for this excellent technology).

Barry

BTW, my lab-applied AR uasge is 50%

----------


## Cherry Optical

> Hey Adam like I told you I would love to live in your shadow "Mr. Big Time Lab Guy" :D


Harry,

I'd love to have you come to Green Bay and shadow me. Feb 29th to March 1st would be great days for you to shadow. You could attend "What's New University" inside Lambeau Field, learn some new things, score some free drinks, and have a good time. Think about it.

I know I would have a different perspective of your approach and opinions of the optical industry if I shadowed you for a day and I also know you would have a different perspective of me and my opinions of the optical industry if you showed me for a day....

As it always seem to be with you; I'll open my wallet and finance my opinions/beliefs in how certain products will perform if you will set the 'trial criteria' and be willing to follow through with your patients. Additionally, if you want to come and shadow me on March 1st I'll pay for your airfare to Green Bay. This is another one I will not hold my breath on though. You seem to be really good at expressing your opinions but unwilling to challenge your own beliefs - even if it doesn't cost you a dime and could be beneficial to your business and your patients.

E-mail me for the registration materials at adamcherry@cherryopticalinc.com as they are in PDF and can not be uploaded on Optiboard.

Adam

----------


## Cherry Optical

> Same with transitions I get patients that want a photochromic FT in poly every now and again and I explain to them that we have a photochromic not a transitions and that transitions is the brand and a majority of the time they just want the one that changes.


Do you know that you sound like the teacher from Charlie Brown to your patients when you say that?  :D

Adam

Wahwaha wa wahh wa wha

----------


## Cherry Optical

> But with the excellent ELOA warranty, you are insured and protected!), and looks great!


Essilor Lenses stands behind their product like no other lens manufacturer I have dealth with.  

Additionally, I might argue that the Cherry Optical warranty is even more liberal than what you are currently receiving, Barry.  Our warranty is to back up whatever decision you make between you and your patient.  There is none better! 

Adam

----------


## Fezz

> Harry,
> 
> I'd love to have you come to Green Bay and shadow me. Feb 29th to March 1st would be great days for you to shadow. You could attend "What's New University" inside Lambeau Field, learn some new things, score some free drinks, and have a good time. Think about it.
> 
> I know I would have a different perspective of your approach and opinions of the optical industry if I shadowed you for a day and I also know you would have a different perspective of me and my opinions of the optical industry if you showed me for a day....
> 
> As it always seem to be with you; I'll open my wallet and finance my opinions/beliefs in how certain products will perform if you will set the 'trial criteria' and be willing to follow through with your patients. Additionally, if you want to come and shadow me on March 1st I'll pay for your airfare to Green Bay. This is another one I will not hold my breath on though. You seem to be really good at expressing your opinions but unwilling to challenge your own beliefs - even if it doesn't cost you a dime and could be beneficial to your business and your patients.
> 
> E-mail me for the registration materials at adamcherry@cherryopticalinc.com as they are in PDF and can not be uploaded on Optiboard.
> ...


Hey Harry,

I may need a another body to split the hotel and car rental with! Or, bettter put, someone to splash my gullet with ale with!!


:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

----------


## HarryChiling

> Harry,
> 
> I'd love to have you come to Green Bay and shadow me. Feb 29th to March 1st would be great days for you to shadow. You could attend "What's New University" inside Lambeau Field, learn some new things, score some free drinks, and have a good time. Think about it.
> 
> I know I would have a different perspective of your approach and opinions of the optical industry if I shadowed you for a day and I also know you would have a different perspective of me and my opinions of the optical industry if you showed me for a day....
> 
> As it always seem to be with you; I'll open my wallet and finance my opinions/beliefs in how certain products will perform if you will set the 'trial criteria' and be willing to follow through with your patients. Additionally, if you want to come and shadow me on March 1st I'll pay for your airfare to Green Bay. This is another one I will not hold my breath on though. You seem to be really good at expressing your opinions but unwilling to challenge your own beliefs - even if it doesn't cost you a dime and could be beneficial to your business and your patients.
> 
> E-mail me for the registration materials at adamcherry@cherryopticalinc.com as they are in PDF and can not be uploaded on Optiboard.
> ...


Hey Adam, you couldn't afford to feed me drinks for more than 10 minutes. ;):D  I just do it different and it works for me so I continue to do it that way.  Our office sold nothing but premium product before I got here, that's why I am here, because it didn't work for this office so they needed a different perspective.

----------


## HarryChiling

> Harry:
> 
> Here's what I do for a new AR presentation:
> 
> I tell them about the benefits (no need to restate these here), and then....
> 
> I tell them about the _awful_ history of AR complaints (cleaning, "scratches", coming-off, etc.).
> 
> And then I tell them the truth: that its got soooo bad in the late 90's/early 2000's, that if we didn't replace 90+% of all the ARs we sold.......we didn't replace one!
> ...


Barry I love that script, the most common objection sare addressed before they get asked, I will incorporate that with a few minor changes.  Thanks.

----------


## HarryChiling

BTW don't stop by just offering the Coatings, here is the site so you can offer the best technology in lens cloths as well: http://www.clearviewfulfillment.com/

----------


## optical24/7

> BTW don't stop by just offering the Coatings, here is the site so you can offer the best technology in lens cloths as well: http://www.clearviewfulfillment.com/


 
If you sold Crizal coating they will *Give* you, one of those cloths for *Free!* How's that for added value!!  







Or, should I be charging for the cloth???

:D:D

:cheers:

----------


## HarryChiling

> If you sold Crizal coating they will *Give* you, one of those cloths for *Free!* How's that for added value!! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or, should I be charging for the cloth???
> ...


$3.33 by my estimate, that's because they are micro fiber cloths the most advanced cleaning instrument know to the industry. The free ones in our office don't compare because they don't come with the scratchguard printed on them.

----------


## HarryChiling

Does anyone here even know the chemical component of Scotchguard?  I will give you a hint it is the same chemical that is used in that black stuff that gets put on frying pans, here's another it's the same stuff being put in toothpaste.  And the last big daddy hint of them all the same chemical used in almost all the hydro coatins available on the market today.

The only change in this coating is the process, price, and marketing.  The process is worth it the later two I see as a benefit for our office, but we will gladly take those sales that leave other offices lookign for a better deal.

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## optical24/7

> Does anyone here even know the chemical component of Scotchguard? I will give you a hint it is the same chemical that is used in that black stuff that gets put on frying pans, here's another it's the same stuff being put in toothpaste. And the last big daddy hint of them all the same chemical used in almost all the hydro coatins available on the market today.
> 
> The only change in this coating is the process, price, and marketing. The process is worth it the later two I see as a benefit for our office, but we will gladly take those sales that leave other offices lookign for a better deal.


 
I had no idea they used elephant snot in all those products!


:cheers:

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## Cherry Optical

> it didn't work for this office.


I really shouldn't beat a dead horse..... BUT!  How long have you been there and what was considered PREMIUM before you got there?  Things in our industry have been changing (for the better IMHO) at a very rapid pace over the past 3 years.

At the first WNU in 2002 we had Zeiss speak on the Individual Free-Form design.  At the time it was the only free-form design redly distributed in the US market.  Fast forward to 2008 and every major (and a few minor) lens manufacturers are now using more advanced software and equipment to design and produce better PALs.

Call me 'new-school' but I believe I could find a lens design you would like more than some of the designs you may be currently promoting and I am more than confident the Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protection vastly outperforms whatever coating you are currently promoting.

Anyway... Let me or Fezz know ASAP if you are interested in WNU so that we can make proper arrangements.

Adam

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## Uncle Fester

Harry-  Ya gotta go! Inquirering minds from the Optiboard who respect your opinions need to know!

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## icare

I love Crizal and Alize'.  We offer them nearly exclusively.  I dislike the Scotchguard name and it's apparent auto sales connotation.  It belongs at Lenscrafters.  Scotchguard as a brand name seems to be directed at a less intelligent consumer.  I like my patients to feel that they are smarter than common marketing ploys.  Yes, we are operating in a niche.  Perhaps we are segregating ourselves from a larger and more profitable market.  Perhaps not.

We will continue to distance our practice from Lenscrafters in every way possible.  Offering products that are difficult for consumers to differentiate is very risky marketing behavior for independents.

I also echo that the Scotchguard name does not sound as prestigious as the Crizal or Alize brands.

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## bhess25

ive always wondered when the days of wearing your stain resistant couch on your face would come...too bad it had to be these days!!

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## HarryChiling

> "Other lenses smear, smudge and break down over time, losing their cleanability" said Carl Bracy, vice president of marketing for Essilor of America. "*By combining this familiar and trusted brand with the number one prescribed anti-reflective lens in the United States, eye care professionals [ECPs] will be able to sell Crizal lenses with greater ease and success than ever before.*"





> I am more than confident the Crizal Avance with Scotchgard Protection vastly outperforms whatever coating you are currently promoting.


It's not the performance that I don't like, it's the marketing and the cost. I like selling a good coating and then another pair, but if I sell a premium coating for a heafty price and get less profit, it makes it more difficult to sell a second pair. 




> Anyway... Let me or Fezz know ASAP if you are interested in WNU so that we can make proper arrangements.


I am already booked up with events this year with the OAA conference next week, VEE and I want to attend the ABO conference in OH. I appreciate the offer, but why not meet at VEE where I can meet many vendors includeing yourself.




> I really shouldn't beat a dead horse..... BUT! How long have you been there and what was considered PREMIUM before you got there?


I have been here 1 1/2 years now and the coatings of choice were Crizal, Crizal Alize, and Teflon when I got here. The only progressives that were sold were Varilux products and Zeiss products. The opticians didn't even know there was anythign else available to offer and the reps never told them. Our clients are 80&#37; MVC, when everyone here complaisn about Eyemed and there crappy reimbursements we make it work. When I go there they were selling premium AR's on lenses and charging the patient $35.00 as per their plan allowance. I don't have to tell you that we weren't making profit on this AR, matter of fact we were losing money every time we sold an AR, which hurt twice as bad because we were also sellign those premium progressive lenses for $100.00 as per their plan allowance. I have nothing against the performance of these product we just can't make money off of these products and any office that takes plentty of MVC plans knows not to give the house away.  It's business and if you want to keep talking performance and believe it is that important put yourself in my shoes and sell me the new Crizal Avance for the same cost I am getting the Synergy and Triumph, it wouldn't make business sense for you so I wouldn't taunt you to do it and if you did I knwo what the outcoem would be higher priced lenses to make up for the difference.  How abotu this, give me a few minutes and I will post an average MVC clients bill here and then we can disect and come up with what we would all offer this patient.

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## HarryChiling

Here is a job from yesterday, the patient has Eyemed and it's a disvcount plan:

Frame Retail: $239.95 (Rimless)
Lens Retail: $99.00 (SV)
Options: $90.00 (Poly), $90.00 (AR), $50.00 (Drill Fee)
Total Retail: $568.95

Now this is what it looks like with her insurance:

Frame: $155.97
Lens: $35.00
Poly: $30.00
AR: $35.00
Scr: $12.00
Drill: $40.00
Total: $307.97

Now for those that absolutely have to have crizal and all the other high end options what would you put this patinet in?  The parameter for the lenses fall within stock ranges, and saying we don't take that plan is not an option.

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## obxeyeguy

Looks like a nice pair of AR lighten up sentinal to me. :Cool:

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## Jubilee

My understanding is that if you use a "premium ar" that you should just take 20&#37; off the usual and customary..

I can tell you LC ain't selling their premium poly scotchgard lenses for $100...
Can't remember is they break their premium poly into poly, and aspheric, or if they just call it a "premium" material and give only 20% off.

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## Cherry Optical

> I can meet many vendors includeing yourself.


Great... Now I am just a 'vendor.'  And to think I thought we were starting to hit it off....

F-5 = Snickers
F-7 = Doritos
F-10 = Wrigleys Spearmint

:D

Adam

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## HarryChiling

> Great... Now I am just a 'vendor.' And to think I thought we were starting to hit it off....
> 
> F-5 = Snickers
> F-7 = Doritos
> F-10 = Wrigleys Spearmint
> 
> :D
> 
> Adam


Your more than just a vendor, you know what I meant. :cheers:

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## C-10

> Here is a job from yesterday, the patient has Eyemed and it's a disvcount plan:
> 
> Frame Retail: $239.95 (Rimless)
> Lens Retail: $99.00 (SV)
> Options: $90.00 (Poly), $90.00 (AR), $50.00 (Drill Fee)
> Total Retail: $568.95
> 
> Now this is what it looks like with her insurance:
> 
> ...






Being up here in Canada I do not understand this. Will the Ins co. only pay for this amount can you not charge the client over and above.

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## ldgilman

I really feel like essilor just stuck a sharp stick in my eye. As if independants do not have enough trouble with LC as it is, now essilor makes it look like we are just catching up with their technology and at a higher price. Support like that we just don't need. But what alternatives do we have, most of the quality independant labs have already been devoured by the beast?

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## Cherry Optical

> most of the quality independant labs have already been devoured by the beast?


Hello.  Let me introduce myself....  :D

If it will make you feel better (and make you a customer) we will sell you Crizal Avance with Scotch Protection under any name you want it to be.  If you'd rather call it Crizal Alize' with Clear Guard, I can make it happen.  If you'd rather call it Crizal, we can do that as well.

Hell!  Call it AR and I will fill the order with the new product... Enjoy the benefits, forget the name!

Adam

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## HarryChiling

> I really feel like essilor just stuck a sharp stick in my eye. As if independants do not have enough trouble with LC as it is, now essilor makes it look like we are just catching up with their technology and at a higher price. Support like that we just don't need. But what alternatives do we have, most of the quality independant labs have already been devoured by the beast?


Alternatives are given ina post above for different quality AR's at better cost.  As far as lenses go the alternatives are everywhere, if an office wanted to they coudl avoid any company without really havign to worry about not having a certain material or options option.

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## Lee Prewitt

I can't keep quiet any longer! Essilor makes great products but are they the technology leader? iCoat's Stainless AR has been on the market for 3 years now. It has a Bayer of 7, contact angle of 113, anti-static, and the hydrophobic does not come off due to our ion assisted process. Oh! and Stainless can be applied to FT and any index. And if that is not enough we are an independant company that can not only coat the lenses but we can surface and finish them too.  And if that is still not enough the price will blow you away. Yes Virginia, there are better alternatives out there.

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## bhess25

theres other labs, and other coatings, there are even coatings that in independant testing still our preform crizal avance...dont take crap from them..just look at independant testers websites and order the other AR thats better and costs less...if the patient wants crizal specifically, charge them an extra 100.00 bucks above the baseline AR..thatll keep them from buying it and keep you making money!!

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## For-Life

Just talked to my lab guys.  The lens will be known as Crizal Avance in Canada.  Notice, no Scotchguard.  Apparently Essilor Canada refused to pay the extra royalties associated with using the names.  I think with all of the complaints about the added title it is a good move for the company.

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## CaOpticalGoddess

It is my understanding after a meeting with my essilor rep that the new AR will be called Crizal Avance w/ scotchguard and that Crizal Alize w/ clearguard will be phased out.

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## MicheleS

I too am skeptical about the whole scotchguard name. I hope Essilor will offer POP without that logo. te he 
However, I've had my new lenses with Crizal Avance for 2 weeks, by some miracle it rained in Alabama and I got to see the 116 degree contact angle in action.  It was like having rainx on my car windows, the water ran right off.  When I got inside I took off my glasses off and placed them on the counter.  Later when I when wanted to put them back on, I first got a lens cloth knowing that I would need to clean off the left over waters spots.  Strange thing was the lenses where perfectly clean.

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## Chris Ryser

> *Just talked to my lab guys. The lens will be known as Crizal Avance in Canada. Notice, no Scotchguard. Apparently Essilor Canada refused to pay the extra royalties associated with using the names. I think with all of the complaints about the added title it is a good move for the company.*


Essilor in Canada Is part of the French organization and acts and works to the instructions from France, while Essilor USA is afrench owned subsidiary doing their own thing within the comany frame.

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## chip anderson

I found it very disappointing that product names are just licensed *names* and may or may not have anything whatsoever with the actual product which we have come to associate and trust with that name.
Scotchguard isn't scotchguard unless it's on a fabric.
Teflon isn't teflon unless it's on a pan or skillet.  Don't have a clue what it is on a gun or opthalmic lens other than a name.
I realized many, many years ago that Ralph Lauren, or Christian Dior (even when living) or Georgio Armani, or Liz Claiborn probably never even looked at the ophthalmic lines that bear thier names.

I guess if it were not for the public being easily decieved we wouldn't even bother with these over priced products, huh?

It certianly isn't for the quality or even for the uniqueness of design.  Or even for inspiration of the names concepts in other areas.

Chip :Confused:

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## treysdad

You are exactly right, Chip.  They are just names but the consumer places some value to the name and are willing to pay more to get it.  If it didn't work, the manufacturers would stop doing it.  I am a little surprised that Essilor jumped into the game.  They have been pretty successful createing their own brands like Varilux and Crizal.  There must be a way to make an extra dollar or they wouldn't pay the licensing fees.

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## partyoptician

Heres a  thought.  Sell the Ziess AR and forget about the Essilor stuff! I use Ziess exclusively and my clients love it.:)

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## HarryChiling

> You are exactly right, Chip. They are just names but the consumer places some value to the name and are willing to pay more to get it.


You my friend is the consumer, the product is bought by you for resale, you place value on it more than another frame.  Our sales have gone up since we got rid of some of the name brand product in our store.  I don't necessarily attribute it to getting rid of the name brand but rather putting value in the quality of the frame.  We use Johns system of pricing what do you think we can get for it, which often menas the better quality stuff gets more profit and costs less than the branded product so we can give excellent service on these products where the branded stuff is discontinued so fats my head starts to hurt and patients seem to be annoyed.




> I found it very disappointing that product names are just licensed *names* and may or may not have anything whatsoever with the actual product which we have come to associate and trust with that name.
> Scotchguard isn't scotchguard unless it's on a fabric.
> Teflon isn't teflon unless it's on a pan or skillet. Don't have a clue what it is on a gun or opthalmic lens other than a name.


The chemical is the same flourine, although it is different the properties of what teflon and scotchguard are what the marketing department thinks will ring a bell with consumers and demand a higher price.  We don't use teflon coated pans and anyone with any cooking sense doesn't use teflon coated pans, sure it helps you egg slide right outta the pan, but it's a poison that flakes off into your food and can cause liver damage as well as other nasty conditions.

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