# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Zeiss Individual vs. Hoya ID

## mhayley

I love the Zeiss Individual and Short i... they have been my favorite lenses for over a year. I am impressed with the technology of these lenses because they are truly custom lenses (unlike the Physio 360, which I understand is still made from a mold.)

I heard that the new Hoya ID uses the same principles as the Individual, and that the Hoya ID is also _only_ made in Germany - which is where the Individual and Short i have _only_ been made for a couple of years.....
( :idea: hmmmm... makes me wonder if there is a connection there....) 

So does anyone know what is the difference is, (if any) between manufacturing process of the Zeiss Individual and Hoya ID?

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## Bobie

Gradal Individual is Individual Free Form PALs.Hoyalux iD is Free Form Integrated Double Surface Progressive Design PALsHoyalux iD is not individual PALs and all performance will drop if the frame can not adjust to standard position of wear.

Gradal Individual can have fully performance even in non-standard position of wear by order individual parameter of the frame.



Zeiss Gradal Individual
SPH. + 5.00D CYL. - 2.00 A 150 ° ADD 1.50D
PD 60 mm, BVD ( Back Vertex Distance ) 9 mm,
pantoscopic angle 3°
Form : http://www.zeiss.de/4125680f0053a38d...256894003cf487

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## RT

The connection between ID and Individual being produced in Germany is that the equipment used in production is from Germany.  The designs are quite distinct.

ID is also produced in Asia.  The logistics of ordering from Germany are easier, and thus the US is supplied from Germany.

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## Bobie

RT , 
Could you please give us the URL for the detial of how free form PALs have been produce. :bbg:

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## Chul

So far as I know, The Hoyalux iD has dual-add design which means some add power located on front surface and the rest located on back surface. However, Zeiss Gradal Individual is back design.

Hoyalux iD's Dual-add reduces vertical eye movement and swimming. in addition, increases horizontal visual field.

Hoyalux iD: doesn't fully reflects patient's parameter such as panto angle, Vertex distance etc.

Zeiss Gradal Individual: fully reflects patient's parameter(Position of wear).

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## Robert Martellaro

> So far as I know, The Hoyalux iD has dual-add design which means some add power located on front surface and the rest located on back surface. However, Zeiss Gradal Individual is back design.


I believe that the Individual uses free-form generators to place the progressive on the front surface, with standard generators for the back surface. 

Correction- the Individual may be direct-to-surface/free-form on either the front _or_ back depending on the lens power.

Regards,

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## Bobie

Chul , 
Hoya say iD have Integrated Double Surface Progressive Design and try to inform that iD is better than Dual Surface PALs like DEFINITY.

In Thailand , Hoya rep tell us " Hoyalux iD is the world best PALs in the world ".
We listen but we not believe and we never believe info from PALs company , because they lies us many time. Sometime they lies even they know the truth. Sometime they lies because the get info from the big liers in PALs company.

In our test , Hoyalux iD is very good PALs and the performance of Hoyalux iD is greater than Ipseo , and about the same with Multigressiv ILT , but can not compare to Impression ILT.:bbg:

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## RT

> RT , 
> Could you please give us the URL for the detial of how free form PALs have been produce.


Bobie:  I could, but since I work for HOYA, it would just be a lie.

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## Bobie

RT,
We will try to plot Hoyalux iD and post the picture in 2007. :cheers:

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## KStraker

I just ordered a pair of ID's for the owner/Dr. I'm wondering how much we would sell these for if they turn out to be as good as the press? I am aware of the wholesale cost, but don't want to post it here. I'm just wondering what some of you sell this lens for?   Thanks-Kevin

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## AWTECH

KStraker said:


> I just ordered a pair of ID's for the owner/Dr. I'm wondering how much we would sell these for if they turn out to be as good as the press?


FYI: ICE-TECH Advanced Lens Technologies offers a lens that will compete with the ID and patient satisfaction is fantastic.  We are not a big lens company but our technology is based on working with the leading individualized lens technology company. Our designs are fully optimized and do not carry the ID price.  We offer a perfect frame fit lens.  That is a spherical front that is matched to the frame curve with the PAL design on the back surface.

I would challenge you to put your Dr. in the ICE-TECH and the ID, don't tell him which is which.  Using the same frame see which one he can see best with.

The retail price for individualized lenses will range from $500 per pair to $700.00 per pair.

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## KStraker

> KStraker said:
> 
> FYI: ICE-TECH Advanced Lens Technologies offers a lens that will compete with the ID and patient satisfaction is fantastic.  We are not a big lens company but our technology is based on working with the leading individualized lens technology company. Our designs are fully optimized and do not carry the ID price.  We offer a perfect frame fit lens.  That is a spherical front that is matched to the frame curve with the PAL design on the back surface.
> 
> I would challenge you to put your Dr. in the ICE-TECH and the ID, don't tell him which is which.  Using the same frame see which one he can see best with.
> 
> The retail price for individualized lenses will range from $500 per pair to $700.00 per pair.


 I'll take a look at your information and consider doing just that.  Thanks-Kevin

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## blackbirdy4444

The HOYA ID is everything they say it is.  I have several success stories of Zeiss Individual wearers that are now in the ID and much happier.  And when they received their Zeiss lenses, they thought it would never get better.

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## Barry Santini

> Gradal Individual is Individual Free Form PALs.Hoyalux iD is Free Form Integrated Double Surface Progressive Design PALsHoyalux iD is not individual PALs and all performance will drop if the frame can not adjust to standard position of wear.
> 
> Gradal Individual can have fully performance even in non-standard position of wear by order individual parameter of the frame.
> 
> 
> 
> Zeiss Gradal Individual
> SPH. + 5.00D CYL. - 2.00 A 150 ° ADD 1.50D
> PD 60 mm, BVD ( Back Vertex Distance ) 9 mm,
> ...


Of course, all of these *optimized* progressives' optimization is based upon the assumption that there is an assumed optimization of the refraction being done for that particular person.

Sadly, this is far from the field experience of us opticians (at least in the US).  My point is that the full benefits of these optimized progressives is not realized without an optimized refraction.

Given a choice, I'll always recommend Varilux Comfort *with* an optimized refraction, as compared to any *optimized* progressive without.

Cost benefit for me says that (and I don't have any direct experience with this lens) Rodenstock ILT mono wrap-style single vision beats all progressives.  I think we should be recommending more additional specialty pairs, rather than one all-in-one pair, despite the technology currently available.

My two cents...what yours?

Barry Santini, ABOM

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## blackbirdy4444

i agree that additional specialty pairs are a good idea. but that does not mean that the progressive pair that a person has should not be the best they can get.  

I am confused by your terms.  The ID is not using standard progressive designs front and back.. and just intregrating the two that happen to work best for the patient.  The entire lens is a completely 'individual' composition based upon rx parameters plugged into the software.  with the zeiss lens, extra measurements are required for 'optimization' but these can also be supplied with the ID.  

However, they are not required.  To this point consider that literally speaking, your margin of error fitting a lens like the ID is actually larger, not smaller than in the past.  Rather than requiring them, and getting a large amount of measurements that are incorrect, the extra measurements are optional.  

Hoya is calling there lens an "integrated double surface' lens to help get across the point that it is easy to just 'free form' both surfaces of a lens, much more difficult to have the front and back 'free form' surfaces interact with each other perfectly.  that is one major key to their success.  Just because a lens is produced on a free form generator does not make it good.  The software calculations are the magic, and so far, from what i have seen and even read on optiboard, i can't see that anything comes even close to the technology in this lens.

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## Barry Santini

I agree that the premise of the Hoya ID design is superior, but I will wait for field experience (my own included) before I make a judgement.

I prefer the term *non-representative* to incorrect when referring to parameter determination.  

I'm not really sure how *representative* our pupilometers are!

Barry

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## rdcoach5

> The HOYA ID is everything they say it is. I have several success stories of Zeiss Individual wearers that are now in the ID and much happier. And when they received their Zeiss lenses, they thought it would never get better.


Blackbirdy, Please tell us more about your patients who have tried both Zeiss Individual and then Hoya ID and liked the ID better.For example, was the Rx the same? Frame and fitting ht similar? Ant other free-forms to compare? How long did they have their Zeiss lenses?
        Bob Taylor

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## Darryl Meister

> The entire lens is a completely 'individual' composition based upon rx parameters plugged into the software. with the zeiss lens, extra measurements are required for 'optimization' but these can also be supplied with the ID.


Is this in fact true? I haven't seen any information from Hoya suggesting that Hoyalux iD is customized for the wearer's actual position of wear (or even for their basic prescription)...? Do these lenses also come with compensated prescriptions then?

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## AWTECH

Blackbirdy4444 said:


> Hoya is calling there lens an "integrated double surface' lens to help get across the point that it is easy to just 'free form' both surfaces of a lens, much more difficult to have the front and back 'free form' surfaces interact with each other perfectly. that is one major key to their success. Just because a lens is produced on a free form generator does not make it good. The software calculations are the magic, and so far, from what i have seen and even read on optiboard, i can't see that anything comes even close to the technology in this lens.


There is alot of technology in this lens but this does not prove that it manages the astigmatism and power error better than another individualized lens.  It is a different approach and a very costly way to accomplish a lens design.  A spherical front curve offers the best cosmetics and with a proper design can be individualized and manage the power error and astigmatism as well if not better than a dual side design.

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## Robert Martellaro

> There is alot of technology in this lens but this does not prove that it manages the astigmatism and power error better than another individualized lens. It is a different approach and a very costly way to accomplish a lens design.


Allen,

You might find this piece written by Mo Jalie interesting.

http://www.danskoptometri.dk/artikle...generation.pdf




> A spherical front curve offers the best cosmetics


I would think a flatter aspheric front curve would be an advantage in this respect, especially in plus powers.

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## Darryl Meister

> There is alot of technology in this lens but this does not prove that it manages the astigmatism and power error better than another individualized lens. It is a different approach and a very costly way to accomplish a lens design.


In fact, because of the relatively thin nature of spectacle lenses, there isn't really much you can accomplish using two complex surfaces that you can't accomplish with one complex surface and one spherical surface. You certainly can't do much with the inherent unwanted of the progressive optics, which are basically the same regardless of the surface configuration, since the surfaces of a thin lens essentially "add" together. Further, using a lens with the progressive optics on the back will reduce skew distortion as much as, if not more than, "splitting" the optics of the lens between the two surfaces.

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## Robert Martellaro

> Is this in fact true? I haven't seen any information from Hoya suggesting that Hoyalux iD is customized for the wearer's actual position of wear (or even for their basic prescription)...? Do these lenses also come with compensated prescriptions then?


Darryl, 

I suppose that's a rhetorical question, but just in case, the lens is optimized for work (near) distance only and comes with a card that shows the Rx, compensated back vertex add power, and lists the inset for each eye. I'm reasonably sure that the corridor length (11mm and 14mm) and inset can not be specified by the optician. Can I specify a near PD/inset when I order the Individual?

Thanks in advance,

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## Darryl Meister

> the lens is optimized for work (near) distance only and comes with a card that shows the Rx, compensated back vertex add power, and lists the inset for each eye.


It's compensated for near working distance, only? That doesn't sound like much compensation, especially since multi-design semi-finished lenses already do a pretty good job with that. I would have thought that, at the very least, iD would come with basic prescription optimization if they were going to bother with any form of customization at all. I suspect the compensated back vertex Add power is provided in no small part because of the use of a partial back-surface lens design combined with back vertex (instead of front vertex) lens measurements for Add.




> Can I specify a near PD/inset when I order the Individual?


I don't recall whether you can specify the near inset with Gradal Individual; I'd have to check. You can certainly specify the near working distance, which the near inset is ultimately based upon (ignoring for the moment the effects of prism from the distance portion). However, regardless of whether you can specify the near inset, I wouldn't recommend specifying the inset unless you have a compelling reason to do so (such as a monocular patient with a compensatory head-turn). The calculations used to compute the customized near inset are very precise, and are based on both the specified distance Rx power and the specified near working distance.

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## Robert Martellaro

> I don't recall whether you can specify the near inset with Gradal Individual; I'd have to check.


Darryl, 

Thanks, I do have a handful of monocular clients who wear 2.25 to 2.75 adds.




> I would have thought that, at the very least, iD would come with basic prescription optimization


The inset is optimized for the distance Rx, PD, and add power. To the best of my knowledge it is not optimized for back vertex distance, dihedral angle (wrap), or panto. 

Regards,

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## Darryl Meister

> The inset is optimized for the distance Rx, PD, and add power


The inset, perhaps, but it doesn't sound as though the optics of the actual design have been optimized at all.

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## Robert Martellaro

> The inset, perhaps, but it doesn't sound as though the optics of the actual design have been optimized at all.


The ID does seem to employ an atoroidal back surface. This is from Hoya's UK brochure...

*Accurate aspheric/atoric correction in all directions*

"By analysing the natural behaviour of the eye in relation to the position of the lens surface, this exceptionally accurate calculation method ensures optimal aspherisation in all directions. It also offers perfect eye correction, not only on the two primary axes (vertical and horizontal) but in all directions, along equal axes with a stable balance, a perfect interaction between far and near and an ultimate enlargement of the free field of view."

http://www.hoya.co.uk/dn.php?SID=459...15322&m=0&dm=1

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## Darryl Meister

I actually have that particular brochure. You'll notice that while it states (in a rather roundabout way) that the design is basically optimized for the position of wear, it doesn't state whether this optimization is refined for the specific prescription and fitting parameters of the individual wearer. (Obviously, it isn't optimized for fitting parameters if these aren't requested or supplied.) Several semi-finished lens designs are now optimized for the position of wear for an _average_ wearer with a single (usually spherical) prescription and typical frame fitting parameters. However, the real benefit of _free-form_ technology is the ability to optimize the design in "real-time" for a _specific_ wearer, using his or her exact prescription (including any cylinder) and frame fitting details.

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## Bobie

1. More ADD , more SPH. , more CYL. on semi-finished PALs = more swimming effect , less visual field , less comfort of vision !.

2. PD. smaller or larger than 64 mm on semi-finished PALs = more swimming effect , less visiual field at near and intermediate , less comfort of vision !.

3. The most cheapest free form PALs is much better performance than the most expensive semi-finished PALs and will be much more difference when SPH. over 4.00D or CYL. over 2.00D or ADD over 2.00D or prism over 1 or anisometropia over 1.00D !.

But you can close your eye , shut your ear , shut down your brain and believe in info from PALs Empire like , " their semi-finished PALs is much better than many expensive free from PALs from other company and the free form PALs from PALs Empire is the world best !.

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## Robert Martellaro

Darryl,

So, if we have a client whose moderate to high diopter lenses must sit at an unusual back vertex distance, primarily very close to the eye, with maybe less panto than normal, (likely with those who have very flat and wide bridges) then the lens that is optimized for position of wear will have less off-axis error hence clearer vision at near and at the distance periphery.

However, if we can find frame that fits "by the book", which happens in my office in almost every case, then optimizing for position of wear is moot, as long as the design is optimized for off-axis power error and oblique astigmatism _specifically_ for the _individual_ Rx, I suppose by using different types and levels of asphericity, and by using an atoroidal surface for the high cyl Rxs.

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## blackbirdy4444

> I actually have that particular brochure. You'll notice that while it states (in a rather roundabout way) that the design is basically optimized for the position of wear, it doesn't state whether this optimization is refined for the specific prescription and fitting parameters of the individual wearer. (Obviously, it isn't optimized for fitting parameters if these aren't requested or supplied.) Several semi-finished lens designs are now optimized for the position of wear for an _average_ wearer with a single (usually spherical) prescription and typical frame fitting parameters. However, the real benefit of _free-form_ technology is the ability to optimize the design in "real-time" for a _specific_ wearer, using his or her exact prescription (including any cylinder) and frame fitting details.


 
Actually, as stated before, the ID can be as custom as you would like.  The individual requires panto and vertex measurements, but that does not mean the calculations henceforth would make a better lens.    The ID  offers actually a larger margin of fitting error because of its prescription optimization.  Supplying panto, vertex etc.. can be factored into the software, but is not REQUIRED.  

I have same frame, same Rx testimonials from Individual wears that state the ID is 'leaps and bounds' better.  These are opticians that would only sell Zeiss lenses in general until they wore this lens.  One of them is a German trained master optician of 50 years that was personally invited to Germany for the release of the Individual.  Now he only wears and sells the ID.  Seeing is believing...  The ID has been recongized internationally for a reason... its not like HOYA is actually any good at marketing themselves.  If anything, that is their weakness.

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## m0002a

Would an amblyopic patient with 20/200 in bad eye be considered to have mono-vision? Would the offset be adjusted at all for such a patient on the Zeiss Individual?

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## rdcoach5

> Would an amblyopic patient with 20/200 in bad eye be considered to have mono-vision? Would the offset be adjusted at all for such a patient on the Zeiss Individual?


I have such a patient who does well as long as her monocular P.D.'s are correct and it does make a difference if her lazy eye's lens is off. Maybe Darryl has more info on the Individual, but I doubt that the fact that your patient is amblyopic has as much bearing as correcting the power and prism imbalance, which is one great thing free-forms do. By the way, Darryl, A Zeiss Individual patint was back in for a nosepad adjustment and kept raving about his vision. He's high minus (-7.00) with a +2.50 add
         Bob Taylor

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## Robert Martellaro

*Even more options ... premium performance*
Gradal® Individual lenses are so advanced and flexible that Carl Zeiss can offer even more customization capabilities for your patients: 
Zero mm inset for monocular patientsspecification of individual near working distancesFrom-

http://www.zeiss.com/41256820002524a...256d7f004d6b0a

Hoya now says their software accepts inset requests, whether you will get it that way might be another story. It's like pulling teeth trying to get good info from these lens manufacturers- why is that? 

Regardless, Hoya is e-mailing the German techs to see if the lens can be optimized for position of wear. At these prices the lens should mow your lawn and light your cigar too. Hopefully the answer survives the translation.

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## Darryl Meister

I've been traveling, but it sounds like you guys got this sorted out anyway. :cheers:

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## Robert Martellaro

According to Hoya Lens Deutschland in Moenchengladbach- 

"Hoyalux iD has been performed as a quasi-individualised PAL-type in Germany since its introduction, offering order options like examination method (W/F/B) or (alternatively) working distance/near inset position."

"But, different to products of Zeiss, Rodenstock (and others), iD cannot cope with further centration data like face-shape-angle, back vertex distance or that Panto angle. Indeed, it is a subject among our customers too, but we should wait still a bit until Hoyalux iD ***** is coming."

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## Darryl Meister

> "But, different to products of Zeiss, Rodenstock (and others), iD cannot cope with further centration data like face-shape-angle, back vertex distance or that Panto angle. Indeed, it is a subject among our customers too, but we should wait still a bit until Hoyalux iD ***** is coming."


Seems to contradict




> Actually, as stated before, the ID can be as custom as you would like. The individual requires panto and vertex measurements, but that does not mean the calculations henceforth would make a better lens. The ID offers actually a larger margin of fitting error because of its prescription optimization. Supplying panto, vertex etc.. can be factored into the software, but is not REQUIRED.


I guess we don't have any Hoya folks on OptiBoard who could confirm _with certainty_ one way or the other..?

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## rdcoach5

Another Individual pt. was back in the office yesterday. I asked him if the additional cost was worth it and he replied " absolutely. The clear zone for reading and distance extends all the way across the lens."This is a patient who can afford to buy the very best and he confirmed that , this was, what I had told him it would be- The very best. It' expensive but worth it in my experience, without exception.
 Bob Taylor

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