# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Lens comparison for patients of non-dispensing doctor's office

## OpticalNewbie

For offices that only do exams but don't sell glasses, is there a consumer guide to steer patients to help them select a progressive lens from the popular retail outfits they will go to, even if the quality snobs here might look down on them? Or does anyone here at least have thoughts on the lenses most patients will actually be choosing from? I'm new to this and don't know how the options compare. e.g. how does the Lenscrafter Signature HD lens compare to whatever Costco, Walmart and Pearle Vision Offer? How do the different Walmart high index lenses compare? (they have Zeiss, Seiko and Nikon among others, though I don't know what models). 

For comparison purpose if you want one example, consider one patient with a high prescription and some difference between the eyes, e.g.:
O.D.  -6.00  Cyl -1.50  095 Add +2.00
O.S.  -9.50  Cyl -0.75  090 Add +2.00

Thanks.

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## TLG

> For offices that only do exams but don't sell glasses, is there a consumer guide to steer patients to help them select a progressive lens from the popular retail outfits they will go toThanks.


Yes, there is a consumer 'guide'; we call them 'Opticians'.  :Cool: 
What I'm saying is that this decision belongs in the hands of the person fitting the eyewear, not the one who did the eye exam...or a pamphlet.

WELCOME TO OPTIBOARD! First post and you already called us 'snobs' - still nice to have you along!

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## uncut

Pssst....Tony!  We got called "_quality_ snobs"!

I agree with Tony, about the guide.  You have to remember that the "flavor" brand used at some of the chains you mentioned changes with the political and economic winds!

Welcome to the forum, opticalnewbie!

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## Johns

> For offices that only do exams but don't sell glasses, is there a consumer guide to steer patients to help them select a progressive lens from the popular retail outfits they will go to, even if the quality snobs here might look down on them?


Hi, I'm one of those "snobs".

Let me rephrase the question for you. "Hi, I'm a consumer, and want to buy cheap glasses somewhere, but want to get all the information about them from a pamphlet."

Correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time today), but that's the way I'm reading it.

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## idispense

Are there really that many customers that ask about the technical differences between specific brand name products as opposed to asking the difference between free form versus non-free form or generic product versus a brand ? I can count on two hands the intelligent engineer types that have asked me about technical difference between brands , but usually they bought elsewhere based on price thinking they were getting a deal then came back asking me to solve their vision problems with the new glasses . Those vision problems usually turned out to be centration and seg height and fitting problems not brand problems . 

The first mistake made was to select branded lens versus branded person with the education and experience to properly select, fit, and adjust those branded lenses. 


However there is terrific value in the sale by selling /explaining a "Brand" they can identify with over a non-brand. That is the value added portion of using Nikon or Zeiss or Kodak . The brand commands premium dollar and is best compared against non-brand in the decision making process. You do not wantthe customer to have an interbrand war or conflict.


The lesson for me was to concentrate on "normal flow customers " as opposed to shoppers who were really price people not brand people at all.

The point being that we need to move customners in a flow from 1 point in the eyewear/lens selection process to the next. The technical customer is motivated by wanting quality and talking quality so the first step from a Dr is to sell that customer on the branded expert who possesses the knowledge to answer those questions . A non-dispensing Dr should not enter that portion of the process regarding which lens to buy . He should sell the referral to the expert that is branded to know which individual product brand to use for that technical patient's visual needs. 

A non-dispesning Dr  should have no part in product selection other  than which dispenser to refer to.

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## thelittlestnixon

It is, or should be, up to the optician to make the decision regarding lenses, not the one doing the exam. Opticians are the ones that have to keep up with current technology in lenses so that they can choose what is best for the patient. But... if you really want to recommend a lens you can always choose the most expensive one. :D

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## Robert Martellaro

> Those vision problems usually turned out to be centration and seg height and fitting problems not brand problems.


Indeed. I tried to play golf a long time ago- the ball would go to the right or to the left, but only rarely down the fairway. I even tried some extremely pricey, hi-tech clubs, but it made no difference. The only time the clubs made a difference was the time I rented a set that were to short- I'd take my swing and miss the ball completely. 

OpticalNewbie, 

Locate two or three of the best opticians in your area and refer your clients to them.

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## EyeCare Rich

OpticalNewbie, 

Locate two or three of the best opticians in your area and refer your clients to them.

+1 for this idea!!!!!  Completely up to the trained and educated optician to choose which lens would fit the patients needs.  It is more than just the Rx that you need to consider.  It would be nice to say that one lens would fit all, but without ALL the information from the patient, there could be many.

Welcome to the site OpticalNewbie.

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## Judy Canty

I sense a consumer post.

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## AustinEyewear

Cheaper almost always equals lower quality.  Sorry.  And with your Rx, you better not go cheap.

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## OpticalNewbie

I suspect the negative posts are all dispensing opticians and have difficulty grasping that not all eye doctors sell glasses. Its seems an appropriate customer service to give some guidance to patients who will buy their glasses elsewhere rather than leaving them stranded and clueless. Being able to provide guidance would help prevent defection of patients to doctors at those retailers. Its sad that some people here have trouble grasping there isn't an obvious source of information to steer patients to and that its a logical business tactic to provide them neutral guidance on where to go depending on their needs. A large fraction of the public is going to buy lenses from Costco, Walmart, et al., no matter what your fantasies are that they'll go and find the perfect private optical store.   The sales people   at each major retail chain will likely be pushing their own brand. How do the lenses compare between chains? Yes, the selection changes as someone pointed out, but that doesn't magically remove the utility of being able to provide some guidance.

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## OpticalNewbie

I'd suggest its of use to dispensing opticians here to be able to answer the question "Why should I got to you rather than a chain?" more specifically than a vague reference to quality,  and to communicate that to local non-dispensing doctors. Eyecare is a business even if many here aren't focused on that aspect of it, I'm considering what business advice to provide to an eye doctor.

So I'll add alternatively you could give guidance on explaining the cost/benefit of using a private optician rather than a chain. Why should they be steered to one? What is the benefit, how much difference does it really make and how to explain that? How should the best local opticians be selected?  What lenses should they look for to help assess the quality of an optician?

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## scriptfiller

I like the new lense from Essilor... The Essilor Acquisition.  Helps you gobble up everything in sight.

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## EyeCare Rich

Love it, that's funny!  As Larry the Cable Guy would say, I Don't Care Who You Are, That's Funny, Right There!

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## Robert Martellaro

> I like the new lense from Essilor... The Essilor Acquisition.  Helps you gobble up everything in sight.


Ha! And if you don't buy into the Acquisition, be prepared for the 'Inquisition'. It's old school, but it gets results.

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## Johns

> I sense a consumer post.





> Let me rephrase the question for you. "Hi, I'm a consumer, and want to  buy cheap glasses somewhere, but want to get all the information about  them from a pamphlet."
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time today), but that's the way I'm reading it.


...

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## Judy Canty

Dear OpticalNewbie,

You know, a little honesty would have been appropriate.  You could have communicated with many of us through PM, and received more appropriate advice than this thread has produced.
Play nice, follow the rules and so will we.

Peace out!

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## chip anderson

Newbie:   We have no trouble grasping the idea that not all eye doctors sell glasses.   This used to be true of all of the MD's and we opticians loved them as it gave us a chance to be independents and actually make money.  Unfortunately some idiot optician shared the fact that he was making money and the good doctors wanted that for themselves.
We all love an applaude the few ethical MD's that do exams and do not sell eyeglasses, unfortuantely there are so few of them left, that many of the younger opticians don't even know of the concept.
As to cheap consumers like yourself that want to go to chains and mail order, who needs them?

Chip

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## OpticalNewbie

> We all love an applaude the few ethical MD's that do exams and do not sell eyeglasses, unfortuantely there are so few of them left, that many of the younger opticians don't even know of the concept.
> As to cheap consumers like yourself that want to go to chains and mail order, who needs them?


I'm trying to give advice to an OD who does exams and doesn't sell glasses. 
 Many customers are cheap only because they don't know why they shouldn't be. Customers don't want to needlessly waste money. Private opticians apparently don't care enough about their own livelihood or about prospective patients to bother to learn anything about marketing. (which is partly why they aren't running chains themselves).

Its sad that people can't grasp the concept of providing a coherent explanation as to why customers should be steered to a non-chain optician. Vague comments about "quality" won't convince a skeptical consumer who wants to understand why that quality is worth the price. 

If you are incapable of explaining it, thats fine, but unfortunate both for the business future of private opticians and for patients who would benefit if those opticians bothered to learn something about business. 

Its also sad that they don't grasp that even patients that are being "cheap" deserve the best vision for the money they can get when they go to a chain. Not everyone is rich.

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## OpticalNewbie

> Dear OpticalNewbie,
> 
> You know, a little honesty would have been appropriate.  You could have communicated with many of us through PM, and received more appropriate advice than this thread has produced.
> Play nice, follow the rules and so will we.
> 
> Peace out!


I played nice. I asked a valid question. Eye doctors that don't dispense don't know all the lenses. Its unclear who I should have PMed and how I should have known to do so and why a topic shouldn't be publicly discussed.

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## AustinEyewear

Last we checked on Costco, they were pushing some really old PAL technology.  Call them and ask yourself, but it was pretty old, and not that great.  LC does the same thing, most of these chains do the same thing.  They want to buy frames for $3 and charge $100 for them.  That's how they work in optics too.  They really are a terrible value.  I would recommend that you call and do some research, and then come back here with some real data that people can then respond to.  Your question is way to vague.

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## braheem24

> For comparison purpose if you want one example, consider one patient with a high prescription and some difference between the eyes, e.g.:
> O.D.  -6.00  Cyl -1.50  095 Add +2.00
> O.S.  -9.50  Cyl -0.75  090 Add +2.00
> 
> Thanks.


Your Doctor wants his Anisometropia, most likely Aniseikonia patient with off axis vertical and horizontal imbalance as well as reading imbalance to pick his glasses from a pamphlet?

Please, Please come back with you Doctor's answer.

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## Robert Martellaro

> I'm trying to give advice to an OD who does exams and doesn't sell glasses.


Some folks are questioning your ophthalmic pedigree. You can clear that up by coding the sample Rx you provided, with a short description of what your concerns are when filling this Rx. Assume that both eyes are healthy except for a grade 2 nuclear cataract in the left. VA 20/20  and 20/25.




> How do the lenses compare between chains?


Not relevant. I don't judge eye doctors by the brand of equipment in their office. I choose by reputation, how much time is spent with each client, feedback from other clients, and objective results (the ability to get it right the first time). Do the same for the optician. In the 28 states that don't regulate opticianry, confirm that they have at least the minimum certification.

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## Judy Canty

Still think we have a consumer here...or maybe an online retailer doing some marketing research.  The rx is so randomly off the norm, and without enough real information to provide a comprehensive answer, that I remain suspicious.

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## OpticalNewbie

> Some folks are questioning your ophthalmic pedigree. You can clear that up by coding the sample Rx you provided, with a short description of what your concerns are when filling this Rx. Assume that both eyes are healthy except for a grade 2 nuclear cataract in the left. VA 20/20  and 20/25.
> .


The site refers to eyecare professionals, presumably those helping with the business side of an eyecare establishment qualify as a professional involved in eyecare.I asked a question as part of addressing an issue incredibly obvious to those with any business background even if it isn't to those with only an optical background who perhaps might operate a business but don't know much about marketing or customer service.

 A non-dispensing doctor that can give patients good neutral advice between chains&private opticians and different lens choices will help win patient loyalty so they are less likely to defect to a chain, and more likely to refer their friends&family.  I stated I was dealing with a non-dispensing OD, not that I was one. I figured it matters more where someone with a prescription like this gets their lens than someone with a low power single vision lens, so I figured it would make a good sample case.  

 As I noted its  useful for private opticians to be able to explain to customers (or to local eye doctors)   why someone should consider using them rather than a chain, why it might be worth the extra money in concrete terms they can relate to rather than say a vague general comment about quality which doesn't tell concretely why it might be worth their money. e.g. that " there are X% non-adapts in cheap lenses but in X lens its more like..."  Or "the cheap non free form lens they use will have a narrow intermediate zone compared to these free form lenses so.." . I used an example where the quality of the lens will make a difference. Which chain should they go to if they don't have the money for more than a chain?  If they go to a private optician, what guidance is there on what lenses they should consider in case the optician isn't 1st rate or is pushing just the ones they happen to be familiar with?

What source of information compares lens between these chains? If there is none, what comments do people have on them, would it be of use collecting them  to create such a resource? 
Is there a better site to ask? I figured progressive lens choices were more of an issue than single vision so I started with this forum rather than the general one on this site.

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## AustinEyewear

> A non-dispensing doctor that can give patients good neutral advice between chains&private opticians and different lens choices will help win patient loyalty so they are less likely to defect to a chain, and more likely to refer their friends&family.  I stated I was dealing with a non-dispensing OD, not that I was one. I figured it matters more where someone with a prescription like this gets their lens than someone with a low power single vision lens, so I figured it would make a good sample case.


What chain is the doctor next door to that you're performing this research for?

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## EyeCare Rich

OpticalNewbie, you aren't going to find one answer from all the qualified opticians here.  We are independent practitioners here, and many have opinions different from one another.  We each have our own "brand" that we may prefer, but it really comes down to the patient sitting in front of us at the moment.  The biggest difference I see, is that any Optician worth a grain of salt will sit down with the patient and spend time getting to know the patient they are fitting, and select the best product for that person.  Many "Chain Store" opticians don't have that luxury.  Notice I said many!  There are also some fine Opticians at these "Chain Stores"  that will and do spend that time.  

Going back to your original post, I think the tone you are receiving here was originally set by you calling us optical snobs.  If you don't appreciate being berated, you should consider presenting in a little more acceptable tone.  Good luck in your persuit of finding your answers.  I do most certainly hope this helps you.

P.S.  I don't have trouble marketing myself, and business is just fine with or without the chain stores.

Rich

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## chip anderson

A non-dispensing eye doctor can mearly say:  "Go there they are honest and know what they are doing."
A dispensing eye doctor can say:  "Go there I have a piece of the action."

Chip

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## B101875

Well, I read all these posts.  I workedfor an MD once. 2 of the worst months of my life.  4 techs did therefracting and 2 were go and 2 were bad.  Highest remakes ever! Iwill say that I thought all MD's did Plus cyl.  Could you please putthis Rx back into the Plus Cyl?


The reason why chains sell so cheap isb/c they are selling palls that are 10 to 15 years old in design. It's unfair for you to say that we are no good b/c we don't own ourown store.  There is a lot a lot that goes into owning your ownstore.  And we do not want the head ache.


The reason why you bring your Rx to theOptician is because they ask questions.
Do you want your glasses to get darkwhen you go outside? Transitions.
Small frame? Limits how many palls youcan go into.
Hi-Index, Trivex, Poly, Rimless?  Alldifferent palls.
Do you play golf? Hunt?


You can't get these answers in apamphlet.  You should be looking for brands and a couple of opticiansto refer to. They may even give your pt's a discount.


Was it a tech or the Dr that came up w/this Rx or is this just a made up Rx.  If you are a consumer.  Pleasecome see me.  I will have my OD refract you again and I will get youinto a nice pall.

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## Robert Martellaro

> Still think we have a consumer here...or maybe an online retailer doing some marketing research.


Yup. 

It's still a good questin though, and for consumers who are reading this, here goes... shop for the optician, not the optical company, or lens brand. The best opticians tend to migrate towards the independent doctors, eye clinics, eye institutes, or independent optician shops. Check their credentials, BBB status, maybe a referral, and look for decades of experience, especially if you are over age 50 and/or wear a more complex Rx.

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## AustinEyewear

> The reason why chains sell so cheap isb/c they are selling palls that are 10 to 15 years old in design. It's unfair for you to say that we are no good b/c we don't own ourown store.  There is a lot a lot that goes into owning your ownstore.  And we do not want the head ache.


Yep, they are running the law of numbers, expecting remakes and returns, but enough volume will compensate for these losses and the problems that the poor quality they offer creates.

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## AustinEyewear

> It's still a good questin though,


  I think so too.  Now if we can get this person do go do his/her own homework and report back to us with the findings that would be great.

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## NCspecs

> For offices that only do exams but don't sell glasses, is there a consumer guide to steer patients to help them select a progressive lens from the popular retail outfits they will go to, even if the quality snobs here might look down on them? Or does anyone here at least have thoughts on the lenses most patients will actually be choosing from? I'm new to this and don't know how the options compare. e.g. how does the Lenscrafter Signature HD lens compare to whatever Costco, Walmart and Pearle Vision Offer? How do the different Walmart high index lenses compare? (they have Zeiss, Seiko and Nikon among others, though I don't know what models). 
> 
> For comparison purpose if you want one example, consider one patient with a high prescription and some difference between the eyes, e.g.:
> O.D. -6.00 Cyl -1.50 095 Add +2.00
> O.S. -9.50 Cyl -0.75 090 Add +2.00
> 
> Thanks.


I gave this explanation to a different "non-optical poster":


"A solution I can offer here is that we all pitch in and try to find a way for you to sit down with a solid, well-certified Optician in your area. My recommendation is to call a few Opticials in your area and verify that the Optician you are working with is seasoned and licensed. Because of your profession, I would suggest taking this extra step so you can find someone who is able to answer all of your questions. 

Now, here is a little bit of advice I can give. Nothing raises the hackles of a good Optician like an engineer and a sardonic, "I'm smarter than you" approach will do nothing to sweeten the mood of the person trying to help you. I can promise you that an Optical license is not given away and that you may have to concede to the fact that the person you find might actually be more knowledgable than yourself when it comes to the science of Optics.

I hope this puts a postive light on our reluctance to offer online support but the the "computer" (i.e. the human brain) we work with is an unfathomable mystery. I hope your needs are met and that you have a pleasant experience that leads to a long-term relationship with a great Optician!"

There is no such thing as a "Progressive Grid". I work for a private OD and when I sit down with a patient regarding the fit of one of _490+ progressive designs that I have to choose from_ it's a customized fit. Typically the chain opticals can only fit what the corporate fat cats have told them they can fit. They don't have the choices that private opticans have or sometimes the experience that comes with working with several different designs. If you were my patient, I would have you narrowed down to about 5 different designs just by looking at your Rx. I can't even begin to recommend anything by name however because I don't have your full medical chart. 

I hope this clears up the confusion. 

Cheers.

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## B101875

> I gave this explanation to a different "non-optical poster":
> 
> 
> "A solution I can offer here is that we all pitch in and try to find a way for you to sit down with a solid, well-certified Optician in your area. My recommendation is to call a few Opticials in your area and verify that the Optician you are working with is seasoned and licensed. Because of your profession, I would suggest taking this extra step so you can find someone who is able to answer all of your questions. 
> 
> Now, here is a little bit of advice I can give. Nothing raises the hackles of a good Optician like an engineer and a sardonic, "I'm smarter than you" approach will do nothing to sweeten the mood of the person trying to help you. I can promise you that an Optical license is not given away and that you may have to concede to the fact that the person you find might actually be more knowledgable than yourself when it comes to the science of Optics.
> 
> I hope this puts a postive light on our reluctance to offer online support but the the "computer" (i.e. the human brain) we work with is an unfathomable mystery. I hope your needs are met and that you have a pleasant experience that leads to a long-term relationship with a great Optician!"
> 
> ...


 +1

Besides why would you want to refer to a chain the slaves thier are never there the same time.  Where at an OD it's 8 to 5 and you get the same person every time.

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## Uncle Fester

I think you and your doc are looking for answers to questions that are on islands of concrete surrounded by quicksand. You can't get to the island without first crossing the quicksand. An experienced ecp knows how to get you there or if you should even attempt to try. 

It can take years of experience to give definitive answers (even then almost always qualified) to subjective questions but two simple replies come to my mind-

1) You get what you pay for.
2) Ryser's Rule- The success of a progressive is proportional to the motivation of the patient to wear a progressive.

Kind regards-  :Smile:

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## AustinEyewear

> I think you and your doc are looking for answers to questions that are on islands of concrete surrounded by quicksand. You can't get to the island without first crossing the quicksand. An experienced ecp knows how to get you there or if you should even attempt to try. 
> 
> It can take years of experience to give definitive answers (even then almost always qualified) to subjective questions but two simple replies come to my mind-
> 
> 1) You get what you pay for.
> 2) Ryser's Rule- The success of a progressive is proportional to the motivation of the patient to wear a progressive.
> 
> Kind regards-


You can not argue with logic like that!! +!  (love the island analogy too )

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## cleyes

Unless the OD in question studies in detail the myriads of brands of excellent designs out there, there is no way for him/her to recommend a specific lens/brand. He should recommend  the type, not the brand, if he has had the conversation about lifestyle & visual needs Better advice would be to develop a working relationship with local opticians, learn to trust their judgement of what is best for the individual patient & Rx. The doctor should gauge successful referrals by the quality of the glasses, quality of the fit, & patient satisfaction. These are easy to spot for the professional, then he can refine his referral list.

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## Verunica

> I'm trying to give advice to an OD who does exams and doesn't sell glasses. 
>  Many customers are cheap only because they don't know why they shouldn't be. Customers don't want to needlessly waste money. Private opticians apparently don't care enough about their own livelihood or about prospective patients to bother to learn anything about marketing. (which is partly why they aren't running chains themselves).
> 
> Its sad that people can't grasp the concept of providing a coherent explanation as to why customers should be steered to a non-chain optician. Vague comments about "quality" won't convince a skeptical consumer who wants to understand why that quality is worth the price. 
> 
> If you are incapable of explaining it, thats fine, but unfortunate both for the business future of private opticians and for patients who would benefit if those opticians bothered to learn something about business. 
> 
> Its also sad that they don't grasp that even patients that are being "cheap" deserve the best vision for the money they can get when they go to a chain. Not everyone is rich.


What is it you would have us private opticians learn about "marketing" anyhow? Just curious!

I have a vast, well-rounded, contantly updated repertoire of product knowledge- the only "marketing" I ever have to do (at any of the places I have worked as an Optician) over the years is *knowledge of my product*, and the ability to explain the benefits of the product in ways that our patients can understand. Naturally, some people can afford more than others- and it is also my job to know what is best in various price ranges, in order to match the appropriate lens to the patient. I also feel very strongly that most people are never told WHY better lenses are more expensive- I regularly sell "higher end" products to patients because I am also able to convey the benefits of the specific lens I am recommending to the patient.

In a lot of ways, being an Optician is like being a translator. You have to transform technical jargon into leyman's terms for those who do not understand. When you learn to do that, you can help people in any setting and at any income.

As to not running my own chain- I choose to work for an independent OD. I choose NOT to open my own "chain". It does not reflect on my competence or level of skill as an Optician!

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## scriptfiller

Darn it Jim I'm a doctor.....!   Let the OMD/OD write the RX and let the Optician bring it to life.  The OD is a big boy/girl I'm sure they are more than competent enough to research who is a good optician in their community.  Nothing irritates me more than seeing a PAL type written on an RX; One, it makes it seem like it is PART of the RX, Two it's MY job to determine the best PAL.

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## davelp

> Darn it Jim I'm a doctor.....!   Let the OMD/OD write the RX and let the Optician bring it to life.  The OD is a big boy/girl I'm sure they are more than competent enough to research who is a good optician in their community.  Nothing irritates me more than seeing a PAL type written on an RX; One, it makes it seem like it is PART of the RX, Two it's MY job to determine the best PAL.


I agree completely, if you want a comparison, it's like an architect and an engineer, the architect designs the building, but the engineer makes it work by deciding the correct materials and procedures.  The Doctor writes the Rx but the Optician is the one who guides the Patient in their purchase. For want of a better term, Eyeglasses are a blind purchase, meaning the typical consumer knows nothing about what he is going to buy but must rely on the Optician to make choices for them, and it is our training and experience that lets us do that, and puts us above the typical chain.  There are over 700 different PAL designs and having worked in an Essilor partner lab and my wife having worked in a Hoya Lab, I have seen about 1/3 of those and am familiar with about 50-60 of them ( counting dead designs ) so I ask questions about how the Patient uses his glasses and what he has worn before and make my decisons from there,as I am sure most other of us do. for me to tell a Dr. "this" is the best lens for a patient, it takes a little effort and yes while we all have a "go to" lens we are most comfortable with, I don't think many Trained Opticians will put EVERY PAL wearer in the same lens.

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