# Optical Forums > Progressive Lens Discussion Forum >  Physio 360 not as good as Comfort??

## Jude

I just got my new Physio 360s 3 days ago. I'd been wearing Varilux Comfort for two years and loved them, so I was told I would like the 360s even better due to better peripheral vision, etc. As soon as I put the 360s on, I noticed my distance vision was not as clear. My OD had tweaked it from .75 to 1.00 in both eyes. (He tweaked the add from 2.25 to 2.50.) The optician told me my eyes would get used to them after I wear them a few days.

I also noticed the lens thickness on the 360 is greater than that of my Comforts (I had gotten high index with my Comforts). I thought the 360's index was 1.67 and I'm pretty sure that's what the Comforts are, as I'm thinking two years ago that was about as thin as you could get. So I'm confused why the 360s appear thicker. They are both rimless so I can see all edges.

The opticial told me when I ordered the glasses that if I wasn't happy with them, she'd put me back in the Comforts at no charge (I'm hoping that includes correcting the prescription if needed). I have an appointment for the OD to do a follow-up checking my vision...distance in particular. So my dilemna is whether to go back to Comforts or ask for thinner 360s...in addition to adjusting the distance if needed. I'm wondering if the thicker lens could account for the distance "fuzziness".

Any thoughts or input on this would be very helpful. Thanks so much!

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## chip anderson

I just attended quite a few hours of "education" on this subject.  One of the speakers points was a comfort can be more tolerant of centers, etc being a hair off and still give good results.  His point was the newer high tech lenses are not tolerant of any error.  The tell us this with every new lens product.

The question came to my mind:  Suppose the lenses were fitted properly and then the frame gets just a soach out of alignment, as they all will, what happes to the vision?

Chip
Guarantees and warranties are nice but what we need are products that are so good that they are never used.

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## Andrew Weiss

Chip, I'm not sure about how persnickity the Physio 360's parameters are.  I know that Definity and Zeiss Individual are both pretty tolerant of fitting anomolies.  Yes, they function best when perfectly aligned, but when the frame goes off a scoche, they still function just fine.

Sounds like the same problem Varilux had with the Panamic: works great when fit perfectly, not tolerant of error.  Like Chip, I tend not to use a lens which requires that kind of perfection in our imperfect world of eyeglass wear.

I hope Pete weighs in here to give us his take on whether this assessment of the Physio 360 is accurate.

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## Audiyoda

One, I would ensure they are Phyiso360s and not just a Physio.  Huge, HUGE difference.  I've been wearing my Physio360's for the last 4 days and I've never used a more comfortable lens - I don't see any off axis abberitions, the intermediate is wider than anything I've used, and the reading is simply amazing.  The Physio360, IMO, is a good as it gets.

I would also ensure that the frame is fit properly and the measurments are correct - the Physio360 is very tolerant of poor measurments, but sometimes we as wearers are not.

As for thickness, the Physio360 cannot and will not go below a 1.3 CT in 1.67 or 1.5 CT in poly.  The new CNC generators are computer precise to 1/100th of a diopter - and they are precise to 1/50th of a mm in thickness.  That's not to say yours are off - but if the generator was correctly calibrated it should be dead on.

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## Jude

Cjcarlen, your mentioning of the thickness caused me to realize that the Physio 360 comes in two materials. I just assumed, since the optician was talking about how light they are (Ultralite is written or the order), I was getting the high index, as my Comforts are. I also did not know that there was a thicker lens and was not asked if I wanted the high index. Now I know that I got the 1.59 poly and not the 1.67 high index. I guess that's another area of "adjustment" to make and one I would not have chosen.

The Certificate of Authenticity does have Physio 360 written on it. I have read that the plain Physio provides better distance (???), but this optical chain did not offer the plain Physio.

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## fjpod

Jude,

I've also worn Comforts, and Panamics for a few years (-3.50 /2.00 add).  When physio came out I got a comp pair.  I noticed right away that distance was more blurry. I wore them on a trip where I had to read signs at unfamiliar airports, etc.  It was a real problem in those environments. All the measurements were right on.  Peripheral distortion is reduced though.  I suppose what they do is compromise a bit on the Rx near the center of the lens to minimize the amount of astigmatism and distortion in the periphery.  I'm not condoning it, just telling it like I see it.  Maybe Darryl has something to add to this.

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## Jude

Thanks, Fjpod. It sounds like...all things considered, that you're at least satisfied (if not very pleased) with your physios. I'm wondering if the distance vision got any better for you.

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## Twobadapples

...

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## Audiyoda

The Physio360 uses an entirely new method of manufacturing - direct-surface CNC generators.  They are capable of tolerances to 1/100th of a diopter.  _One thing I have noticed with the Physio360 is that due to the elimination of off-axis astigmatism through this new direct-surfacing method, it's smarter to measure the MRP at the base of the pupil, not the center._

Because of a muscular imbalance from birth that was never corrected I converge too far when I read - my eyes naturally converge to roughly 10 inches rather than the traditional 18-24 inches.  I've never been able to wear a progressive comfortably due to this - until now.  Distance is spot on perfect, reading is perfect and even the intermediate (which I generally cannot follow) is great.

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## Jude

Thanks, Twobadapples. I'm thinking that possibly my OD shouldn't have tweaked the distance diopter from +.75 to +1.00, as I was not having a problem with distance. I believe I can get a remake, and will get retested for the distance portion and ask for the 1.67. I didn't realize I had to ask for that. Your input helps.

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## Jude

I appreciate all your input. I went back to my OD this afternoon for a follow-up and he verified I had the correct prescription, but there were other issues that he is taking measures to improve. I don't know if this information is useful to anyone but I'm passing it along just in case. It turns out my old Comforts were in frames that had a marked curvature to them (curved inward at the temples) which skewed the distance vision. They are modifying my new frames to provide some curvature, as this was part of the unfavorable comparison I made between the two.

The other issue was the thickness of the lens. The optician verified that I did have the high index lens. However, the outer edges of the lens are approx. 2.4mm thick as compared to my old lens which were about 1.4mm thick at the edges and I was told that is just too thin. They will be having the lens redone to a lower thickness around the edge which will also lessen the weight of them.

I really appreciated that the OD and optician are working with me to make the glasses such that I can see well and comfortably with them. And I'm looking forward to being a happy Physio360 wearer.

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## lilchiken

I think that the Physio 360 is to be dotted up @ the bottom of patients pupil....but like one of you guys wrote-its the patients adaptability also that determines the success of the lens.

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## AWTECH

Chip said


> One of the speakers points was a comfort can be more tolerant of centers, etc being a hair off and still give good results. His point was the newer high tech lenses are not tolerant of any error.


I don't understand this point. A lens produced with a more individualized design in the same power as a standard progressive should be just as tolerant or more tolerant of center errors, not the other way around.

Not being that familiar with the Physio 360 exact designs I can speak to this issue as a concept.  I do know that the Seiko Succeed which is a backside freeform PAL would be more tolorent of alignment errors than a similar traditional PAL.  Since each area, distance, channel and near offer greater vision area if you misalign this, you have a greater chance to see in areas that would not be usable with more restricted zones of the lens.

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## Bobie

Varilux Comfort is the great PALs and it is the most successful PALs in the world market for over 10 years.

To see how Varilux Comfort have been design , click the URL at below ; ( this document is confidential and not for public )

http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/Varilux_Comfort_concept.pdf

In my openion , the design of Varilux Comfort is too good. It not surprise that , the Varilux Comfort wearer get problem when they switching to other PALs , even more or most expensive Varilux.

AWTECH , you have to understand that , the designer team of Varilux Comfort and Physio / Physio 360 / Panamic / Ipseo is difference team and have total difference design and many technology have been buy from other company.

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## mike.elmes

Six years ago I bought an Optical business that dispensed 90% varilux comfort, at the time I dealt with an independent lab that didn't promote varilux. We had not one person that could see any appreciable difference with the Rodenstock life 2 lenses we used. We also used lots of A/R which had incredible compatability with Nikon's HCC....moral of the story, life 2 and comfort must be very similar designs...physio 360 and comfort must be very different.

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## HarryChiling

> I don't understand this point. A lens produced with a more individualized design in the same power as a standard progressive should be just as tolerant or more tolerant of center errors, not the other way around.


I could try and make an educated guess, I would think that since the individual points across the lens surface are optimized for the center of rotation being in a certain spot, by moving this spot in essence you move al the optimizations on every spot on the lens over that same amount that the lens is off.  I would think, if this is truly what is happening, then this would not only plague the physio.

Another thought is that since the stop is taken into consideration in the wave front design and the stop (pupil) of a humans eye is on average lets say 6mm in diameter, then a 1 mm shift amounts to a 16&#37; error in optimization for the stop.  Just a guess.  Hope it sparks more thought.

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## Bobie

Thank you for your sharing , mike

It is very useful for us and we agree with you that Comfort and life 2 about the same design and can swithching very saftly.

We also have been test the Panamic wearer with Progressiv AT and our conclusion is also about the same design.

HarryChiling , I like your professional comment and would like to hear your comment about the i-zon Fully Customized Wavefront-Guided PALs that have info at http://ophthonix.izonlens.com/izon-l...zed-lenses.asp

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## rdcoach5

> I could try and make an educated guess, I would think that since the individual points across the lens surface are optimized for the center of rotation being in a certain spot, by moving this spot in essence you move al the optimizations on every spot on the lens over that same amount that the lens is off.  I would think, if this is truly what is happening, then this would not only plague the physio.
> 
> Another thought is that since the stop is taken into consideration in the wave front design and the stop (pupil) of a humans eye is on average lets say 6mm in diameter, then a 1 mm shift amounts to a 16% error in optimization for the stop.  Just a guess.  Hope it sparks more thought.


I'm wondering if pupil size could be the difference in adaption to these new free forms

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## HarryChiling

Bobie,

The opthonix lens as I understand it is a laminated lens with the higher order aberations compensated for in the glue using lasers to cure the glue to differing indices, It is to my knowledge a *GR*adient *IN*dex Lens Technology or *GRIN* for short.

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## Bobie

Thank you for your professional comment , Harry.
Could you please , inform me about retail price of i-zon Fully Customized Wavefront-Guided PALs in your area. :p

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## HarryChiling

> Could you please , inform me about retail price of i-zon Fully Customized Wavefront-Guided PALs in your area. :p


I wish I knew, I have a feeling it is going to be very pricey.  Maybe someone who does use this technology in their office wouldn't mind dropping some info on us.

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## au

Hi everyone,

I recently deliver a physio to a patient, he was origionally using essilor ovation. He found the physio is much wider in near when compare with his old PAL. He is using same RX and shape and rimless frame. He is quite happy with the new PAL. I think the physio is not that bad. 
:cheers: 
Especially for the first time PAL wearer a extremely soft design will more success than a traditional design PAL. It is because we don't know the patient is a head mover or eye mover. I believe now all PAL when sitting on the table will not have much problem but when they first stand up and moving around in the shop, most of the eye mover will be OK but the head mover will instancely realize there is swimming effect. Usually the eye mover when look around for sometimes they will tell you on both sides are little blur, we explain to them that is normal, they can accept them and mostly can adaptin a few days. However if they find swimming effect around , they obviously take more time to get use to it or some may feel afraid for the PAL.
:hammer:

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