# Optical Forums > General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum >  Questions about Mirco Scratches on Crizal Lenses

## Shiner

I have questions to see if anyone else has seen this.  I picked up my Crizal Alize lenses on Saturday, and by Sunday--after two cleanings with the provided cloth--I noticed that there were dozens of "mirco-scratches" on the lenses. You can't see these scratches when you just hold up the lens to the light--they look like dust specks.  But when you examine the lens closer, you can see that these "specks" are actually very small scratches.

These mini scratches make no difference for my vision--I can't tell they exist when I look through the lenses.  However, I'm worried that if there are this many scratches after only two days, a few months from now they will affect my vision.  My previous glasses were Crizal, and I didn't notice this problem with them (although they did scratch up over time).

Questions:
--Are these kind of micro-scratches inevitable and common, even on AR-scratch resistant lenses like Crizal?  Or is this unusual and a sign that the glasses weren't made correctly (i.e., I should return them)?

--Since they don't impair my vision, should I just ignore them?

--Since these scratches happened almost immediately and with proper care, should I just take them back to the provider and ask for an exchange?  I already had my glasses remade once (due to an improper prescription), so I'm reluctant to be "that guy" who keeps getting his glasses remade.

--Are there any good alternatives to Crizal which protect from these kind of scratches?  What kind of AR lenses are the most scratch resistant?

Any insights or comments would be appreciated.

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## For-Life

I like Crizal the best due to its duriability.

Sounds like a processing error.  Take them back immediately, and the dispenser should take care of it.  No reason to feel alarmed with the product.

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## mike.elmes

Those lenses have a minimum of 1 year warranty....Phone the provider and tell them about these small scratches and they can make a note of it on your file.

Take them back before the year is up and get them replaced on warranty. They could also be crazed, which is a little different . That can happen if they are subjected to HOT water or if you leave them on the dash of your car while wearing your sunglasses.At any rate they are superior to crizal, so dont worry,
be happy:)

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## Barry Santini

> I have questions to see if anyone else has seen this. I picked up my Crizal Alize lenses on Saturday, and by Sunday--after two cleanings with the provided cloth--I noticed that there were dozens of "mirco-scratches" on the lenses. You can't see these scratches when you just hold up the lens to the light--they look like dust specks. But when you examine the lens closer, you can see that these "specks" are actually very small scratches..


Those lenses have seen a heat-cycle, and the ar is really crazing (cracking) in a micro manner

SB warrantied

barry

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## Shiner

Thanks so much for the responses.  They are very helpful.  I haven't left them in the heat--I've been wearing them since I picked them up Saturday.  NO telling if they were exposed to heat before I got them, perhaps in the delivery truck or something.  

I think the crazing (cracking) description seems right--the whole lens has these little scratches, and they look like tiny cracks.

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## Shiner

Update: I just stopped into my provider, and they're replacing the lenses under Crizal's warranty.  They had never seen that problem before in Crizal lenses, so I'm guessing its fairly rare.  I suppose this story is something for you providers keep in mind, in case you ever encounter this problem in your own practices.  

I was a bit nervous about bringing them back, because I had already had my glasses remade once and the scratches/cracks were so small and didn't impair my vision (I didn't want to be that nitpicking patient who just won't go away!).   My provider was very helpful, though, and offered to fix the problem.

Thanks again for the help.  They let me know that I wasn't just crazy, or too particular, but that there really was something not right with the lenses.

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## Barry Santini

> They had never seen that problem before in Crizal lenses, so I'm guessing its fairly rare.


It happens with some frequency with any of the *quality* ARs that are very hard, and/or are reported to have good adhesion.

Also can happen with a thin center and the lens being too tight around its circumference

Barry

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## jofelk

This problem, AR crazing on Alize, appears to surface regularly on the Board. We have noticed the problem on polycarb with Alize that has been edged to smaller frames. The poly lense is very thin and on smaller frame sizes the lense flexes causing the AR to craze. Perhaps the lense should be surfaced to a 1.8 center thickness on small eye sizes, then apply AR.

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## jameselex

It sounds like the A/R "cracked" or "crazed", it happens with any A/R coating of ceramic nature, Crizal is no exception. It happens alot during eding, causes are :the feed is too fast, chuck is too samll, lens is too thin, and if the frame is plastic, warming it in the salt pan will very likely make the lenses "cracking". 

Edge the lens with manual edger( if anyone cares to do it) with minimum loading pressure will avoid the problem.

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## dochsml

Small scratches that are barely visible could easily be what is commonly referred to as coating voids. This happens when dust / lint is present on the lens prior to coating. Since the coating is much thinner than the dust / lint, it doesn't get "coated over", it gets "coated around". Thus leaving a mark that is the shape of the dust / lint as a bright spot which can look like a scratch. Crazing is usually caused [in new lenses] by poor adhesion of the AR. Probably not due to a bad AR but rather bad preparation prior to AR or plasma source problems in the vacuum chamber. Either way, taking the lenses back was definitely the correct course of action.

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## MzTinaFL

I'm so glad I checked here because I am having the same problem.  The coating is wavy and looks like a million little scratches/cracks have formed on it.  I went back to the retailer and the manager was willing to replace them, but he made me feel like it was all in my head so I said let me see how it feels.  But it feels awful and it's been bothering me for over a week.

I'm definitely calling tomorrow and getting new ones ordered.

Thank goodness for this website!

Tina

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## loncoa

Although admittedly, I tell all patients to please feel free to use their Crizaline cloth dry if there is NO visible debris on the lens, only smudges; but to please rinse the lens at least if there is any debris. No point in grinding dust into the lens no matter what coating you have on, or what cloth you are using.

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## loncoa

P.S. when you are having a problem and the person you are working with makes you feel like it's "all in your head", then I suggest you use your head to find another person to help you. I can't stand it when I see a "professional" treating people that way.

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## For-Life

> P.S. when you are having a problem and the person you are working with makes you feel like it's "all in your head", then I suggest you use your head to find another person to help you. I can't stand it when I see a "professional" treating people that way.


yep.  I stopped giving reasons and blaming myself.  When, on the very odd occassion, I get a crizal crazed I usually just educate the consumer that things like leaving it in the dash of the car can cause it, but this could just be a defective lens.

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## Pete Hanlin

Congratulations to several posters on this thread- who have properly diagnosed the most likely problem (and- in some posts- possible causes).

Just to clarify (for anyone else who may experience the same issue), the appearance of these fine "cracks" is usually apparent with lighting from the side of the lens.  Also, they may sometimes only appear when the lens is flexed.  The appearance is similar to a spiders web- almost frosted.

Usually, there will be a pattern to the crazing- each indicates a different processing issue.  For example, on a rectangular or oval frame (with a short "B" measurement and relatively long "A" measurement), you may see vertical striations on the lens.  This usually comes from improper deblocking (or, as suggested above, may occur when the edging surface is worn or dull).  Proper deblocking involves twisting (not peeling) the lens from the finishing chuck.  Twisting will avoid lens flexure.

If you see a round "dot" shape crazing in the center of the lens, the culprit is likely to be excessive pressure in the edger.  Basically, the lens material has been compacted when chucked- causing the AR to craze.

A round dot with a ring around it is due to a non-matched chuck and block.  Sometimes, operators change out the block in the edger and use the 'half-eye' block for all frames (especially with the smaller lens sizes/shapes).  If the chuck is not the same size, the lens will be flexed when it is chucked.  So, whether the large or half-eye block is used, the chuck on the other side should be the same size.

Oversized lenses (or using frame warmers to adjust frames with the AR lenses mounted in them) can also cause crazing.

As has been noted, the metallic oxide layers in an AR are exceptionally thin and are not nearly as flexible as the lens substrate.  Imagine a balloon with an unimaginably thin layer of plaster on the surface.  Any squeezing or expansion of the balloon will cause crazing on the plaster's surface.  Proper processing and handling of AR coated lenses (Crizal or otherwise) will avoid crazing and other issues.

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## MzTinaFL

_Just to clarify (for anyone else who may experience the same issue), the appearance of these fine "cracks" is usually apparent with lighting from the side of the lens. Also, they may sometimes only appear when the lens is flexed. The appearance is similar to a spiders web- almost frosted.
_
This is exactly the problem I've encountered.  And just so everyone knows, I didn't even have the glasses one week before I discovered the problem.  They never sit out period as I'm either wearing them or put them away in a case (I have cats who've already ruined a pair of glasses once).  Also, I follow the directions I was given on the care of these glasses.  At least once a day, I use Glass Plus to wash them, and I only use the Crizal dry cloth if there is no debris.

I'm not going to give the retailer a hassle because they were exceptionally good about replacing one of the lenses when it was discovered that my Oppthalmologist's office made a mistake on one of my axis.  I'm extremely happy with the sales person I dealt with...she was very patient with my all my questions and such.  I'm quite sure when I call tomorrow she'll still be very nice to me.

I'm so glad I found this website.  I'm telling everyone about this site as eyewear is such an unknown for us non-professionals.  You have all helped me decide on what to get (i.e. crizal) and now you've all helped me in feeling okay about going back to get my lenses replaced.

Thanks,

Tina
:cheers:

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## dochsml

> Congratulations to several posters on this thread- who have properly diagnosed the most likely problem (and- in some posts- possible causes).
> 
> Just to clarify (for anyone else who may experience the same issue), the appearance of these fine "cracks" is usually apparent with lighting from the side of the lens. Also, they may sometimes only appear when the lens is flexed. The appearance is similar to a spiders web- almost frosted.
> 
> Usually, there will be a pattern to the crazing- each indicates a different processing issue. For example, on a rectangular or oval frame (with a short "B" measurement and relatively long "A" measurement), you may see vertical striations on the lens. This usually comes from improper deblocking (or, as suggested above, may occur when the edging surface is worn or dull). Proper deblocking involves twisting (not peeling) the lens from the finishing chuck. Twisting will avoid lens flexure.
> 
> If you see a round "dot" shape crazing in the center of the lens, the culprit is likely to be excessive pressure in the edger. Basically, the lens material has been compacted when chucked- causing the AR to craze.
> 
> A round dot with a ring around it is due to a non-matched chuck and block. Sometimes, operators change out the block in the edger and use the 'half-eye' block for all frames (especially with the smaller lens sizes/shapes). If the chuck is not the same size, the lens will be flexed when it is chucked. So, whether the large or half-eye block is used, the chuck on the other side should be the same size.
> ...


It's important to note that the problem is very rarely due to the AR itself. To clarify, the AR coat being applied correctly is almost a gimme. There can be problems with its application but most are known due to the sophisticated equipment warning its operators during the process. Most of the time, if there is a problem with a coating, it is due to human error where someone is unaware that there is a problem. Crazing is almost always a problem with the hard coat and not the AR. The AR does stress the hardcoat more than Non-AR lenses but it should be able to handle it no problem. Crizal is a very good coating mainly in my opinion because of its hard coat applied in conjunction with the AR (as with most good AR coatings). Any super premium AR goes through a complete battery of tests to verify that it will survive the worst the most people will put it through. I certainly wouldn't want it to discourage anyone due to one bad experience. It always becomes a touchy thing when it comes time to issue credits but things can and will happen (even to Essilor).

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## hotsauce

> _Just to clarify (for anyone else who may experience the same issue), the appearance of these fine "cracks" is usually apparent with lighting from the side of the lens. Also, they may sometimes only appear when the lens is flexed. The appearance is similar to a spiders web- almost frosted.
> _
> This is exactly the problem I've encountered.  And just so everyone knows, I didn't even have the glasses one week before I discovered the problem.  They never sit out period as I'm either wearing them or put them away in a case (I have cats who've already ruined a pair of glasses once).  Also, I follow the directions I was given on the care of these glasses.  At least once a day, * I use Glass Plus to wash them,* and I only use the Crizal dry cloth if there is no debris.
> 
> I'm not going to give the retailer a hassle because they were exceptionally good about replacing one of the lenses when it was discovered that my Oppthalmologist's office made a mistake on one of my axis.  I'm extremely happy with the sales person I dealt with...she was very patient with my all my questions and such.  I'm quite sure when I call tomorrow she'll still be very nice to me.
> 
> I'm so glad I found this website.  I'm telling everyone about this site as eyewear is such an unknown for us non-professionals.  You have all helped me decide on what to get (i.e. crizal) and now you've all helped me in feeling okay about going back to get my lenses replaced.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...


There's your problem. They are not made of glass, they are glasses. Mild dish soap and water--nothing harsher.

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## Pete Hanlin

While one shouldn't have to use GlassPlus (or Windex, or anything else with alcohol or ammonia) to clean an AR coated lens- the window cleaner should not damage the AR itself (it may potentially cause problems with polycarbonate substrate over time, however).

I would second Hotsauce's recommendation of water with just a bit of hand soap.  Personally, I put one tiny drop of Ivory hand soap (no softeners) into a squirt bottle and use that to occasionally clean my lenses.  Really though, since getting Crizal Alize with Clear Guard on my lenses, I honestly haven't had to clean my sunglasses much at all (occasionally, I need to wipe off the mirror coating on the front, but the back seems to stay relatively clean).

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## discerningguest

I had this encounter as well! And at first, my provider wouldn't believe it because she can't see the millions of microscratches that won't seem to go away even after I washed it using a mild handsoap. She told me that I wasn't supposed to wash it with soap anyway but I know my glasses. Before this pair, I had Crizal lenses for my previous prescription that I was able to keep virtually scratch-free for over 4 years before I lost it and I had been washing that with liquid hand soap regularly. They kept on insisting that there were no scratches, especially knowing that these are from Essilor, their products are of high quality and they didn't believe that there could be some factory defects on some of the lenses. And the faulty lenses also passed through my provider's own quality control testing. After an hour of trying to convince them, and out of three different staff checking the lenses, only one was able to see what was wrong. I was finally able to convince them after I took a picture of the defective lens showing that there is a light breaks on the reflected light indicating that THERE ARE actually scratches and they finally agreed to sending them back to Essilor for further evaluation. After a week, I got my glasses back and i don't know if they just polished it or replaced it, but I am now happy with my scratch free lenses! :D

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## mike.elmes

Small micro scratches are likely another issue commonly encountered in our industry...as crazing caused by over heating.

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